Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Yeager on May 26, 2010, 08:41:43 PM
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Is this what has turned so many people off to the whole ww1 Arena? Its turning me off.
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I had my mind made up before the arena ever opened that the DR1 would be the plane I fly. And I did fly in there for a month, got bored and moved back to the MA. I went back in there last week and only 2 people were logged in. :(
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I knew the DR1 would be the WW1 spitfire.
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I went back in there last week and only 2 people were logged in. :(
I had a feeling this would happen, all this wining and now we have it. No body wants to use it.
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I had a feeling this would happen, all this wining and now we have it. No body wants to use it.
Nobody was whining about it, people were just anxious for it because of the unknown factor. I remember the questionnaire that asked us customers if we would be interested in WW1 aviation. I for one answered that I would not be interested. Where are all the players that said they wanted this at? :headscratch:
Further evidence that the customer does not know squat.
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Is this what has turned so many people off to the whole ww1 Arena? Its turning me off.
No.
Player numbers plunged down while the DVII was still the most used plane. Actually I was somewhat surprised it took the DR.I that long to become king.
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I for one answered that I would not be interested. Where are all the players that said they wanted this at? :headscratch:
That's exactly what was going through my mind the other day.
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I remember the questionnaire that asked us customers if we would be interested in WW1 aviation. I for one answered that I would not be interested. Where are all the players that said they wanted this at? :headscratch:
Further evidence that the customer does not know squat.
I was one of those customers that answered interested. And I still am very much, yet I basically left WWI arena after about 2 weeks.
Not because I would love WWII more... I left because of the non-existing gameplay. I left because I got bored very quickly. (I would never had played AH for a long time if DA lake furball was the sole offering).
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I had a feeling this would happen, all this wining and now we have it. No body wants to use it.
It was all too predictable. People saw what they wanted to see in a WW1 setup, which was neat for a (very) short time. Then the "new" wore off.
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I was one of those customers that answered interested. And I still am very much, yet I basically left WWI arena after about 2 weeks.
Not because I would love WWII more... I left because of the non-existing gameplay. I left because I got bored very quickly. (I would never had played AH for a long time if DA lake furball was the sole offering).
So what would it take for WW1 to become a functioning arena? I think some sort of small scale war with objectives would go a long way, but at this point I don't know if it is worth it.
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It is the map that is dictating the aircraft to use. For example no one is in no mans land every one is heading to the nearest enemy base. So since you can't run away in this arena you must turn to fight.
Well if you are the country getting ganged the best plane to use is the DR1 take off with very little fuel wait until some one is engaged then drop in & kill him & since it is a rather stable gun platform compared to the Camel it is about the best bang for your buck.
Change the map get the camel a little more stable for shooting & the game play will change & the DR1 won't be so popular. Just my two cents.
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Hell...they should have shelved the Dr1 until the planeset was more mature and they could offer perk controls to counter balance that planes queer ability to defy gravity (I am exaggerating of course but the feeling is there).
The WW1 arena would be hellmore interesting with the current setup had deleted that pesky Dr1 and instead offered the Albatross in its place and subbed the F1 for the SE5a. Even then, the camel is not defeating the Dr1 with any regularity.
I still love the era, I just plain dislike the Dr1 FM feel and have come to the conclusion that I do not want to play the game in it, which I have to to compete worth a damned when 90% of the reds are in DR1s. It is just crazy the way it has turned out.. and disappointing for me personally.
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So what would it take for WW1 to become a functioning arena? I think some sort of small scale war with objectives would go a long way, but at this point I don't know if it is worth it.
I was predicting such a fate from the start. And very early I (and a few other players) made some mostly very modest proposals, which could have introduced a few more "strategic" aspects while consciously retaining the basic "furball" character of WWI arena and without introducing bhase captures or even an opportunity to "win the war"
The response by fellow players was largely very unfavorable "No need for this... arena will stay very popular... lame gamers, stay out... you just want to win teh war" and stuff like this. Well... I think most of those guys are not playing much anymore either ;)
I'm quite afraid it's simply too late to get the arena back on track. And I am very sad about it.
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I think HTC was hoping to the the players from Rise Of Flight, but they just didn't show up for the party. As far as some kind of war in there, what would that be like? Mustard gas, horses and manned artillary batteries? Not much there to impress todays online gamers. I can't see WW1 being anymore then what it is now.
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I can't see WW1 being anymore then what it is now.
I could. A lot more variation in combat situations is possible without getting into grab-base-win-war stuff of the other AH mains.
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I could. A lot more variation in combat situations is possible without getting into grab-base-win-war stuff of the other AH mains.
Well quit teasing and tell us what's in that massive brain of yours :lol You thinking blimps, machine guns nests...what?
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Well quit teasing and tell us. What's in that massive brain of yours :lol You thinking blimps, machine guns nests...what?
I did more than once on this BBS. But that was back when I was hoping to conserve the initial momentum with relatively little effort and without losing the focus on WW2 arenas.
Now it's too late. You can't bring players back without some major effort (if at all), and that's not going to happen (for good reasons).
and right now my own focus is on fixing my computer, so I can complain about arena caps again. I even missed patch 3 and the following rollback ;)
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Im going to keep playing in the ww1 arenas fo sure as well as the others. I love the ww1 era. I am just frustrated for now. Looking forward to some new skins and new planes soon.
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I fly WWI regularly (as most anyone who has flown there can attest) and personally the Dr1 isn't what's so annoying...it's the sheer number of them. I can typically handle 1 Dr1 in a 1v1 (I fly only the F2 and am only in gunner 0.001% of the time) but when 4-5 Dr1s swoop in for an "easy kill" it tends to get annoying. Same can be said about any plane but the problem with that is there is almost no other plane! I'd be happy to take on 3-4 panes if there was a D7 and Camel thrown in, least there's some variety. My day is perfect when I log in and see someone like AKRaven or any SC on and flying, Raven brings D7 into the mix and the SC's brought Camels in and they knew how to fly their respective planes very very well.
If they ever change the arena to anything but dogfighting I can only hope they only change 1 of the arenas.
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I posted my thoughts on a WWI oriented game not based on taking territory (something intrinsically wrong for WWI) when it was announced.
A large issue is how much work HTC wants to spend on it. The more effort spent on WWI, the less effort gets spent on their core product, WWII.
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WWI was an interesting experiment....
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I remember when DoA was being done by Hitech and Pyro and there was PLENTY of interest in WWI then, it never died till IEN killed it with their bogus FM. All The WWI arena needs is a few more planes (DVa, SE5a, Newport 17, Spad VII, and XIII) for starters along with a couple of Bomber types and some strat targets and wala plenty of guys back in WWI.
I wanted WWI and will still go in there to fly from time to time but more stuff is needed to make it work, most of the RoF guys are off-line commando's wanting to fly "missions" and fight only AI, but some WILL come for the dogfights, I own both games and I prefer HTC's version of WWI.
I think some of the guys got bored and the limited plane set has hurt too, but if they use the old DoA format I think the arena would draw alot of guys.
BigJim
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Waited and waited!still in if there's anyone to fight. But boxboys right .Needs more.
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I decided that since I'm an AH masochist that I would fly the F1 Camel, which I still do in the TA. But right now every flight ends with my plane departing and smashing into the ground. If I can get a handle on the silly thing I'll pop into WW1 more often, that and I have trouble adjusting from WW1 to WW2 from a plane handling and control point of view.
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HiTech's philosophy about this game and how it attracts us as it relates to WW2 with our dads/grandfathers fighting in WW2 hit the mark with me. makes good sense...and also explains the short-lived interest in the WW1 arena.
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I'm quite afraid it's simply too late to get the arena back on track. And I am very sad about it.
I don't think so. If they saved some additions and packed a few of them all together in one... such as a couple new planes, and a new arena format that added some strategy elements. It could draw some crowds back and if it's fun, then it might sustain itself a little better.
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I fly the D7 99% of the time. I will say it is difficult and frustrating fighting against DR1's but it does add some challenge to the fight for me. In my opinion the WW1 arena is almost perfect already. The fun is dogfighting against other players. If some people don’t find it fun then obviously WW1 isn’t for them, but the arena shouldn’t be changed to suite their needs when there are plenty of people who like it the way it is already. We don’t take bases in WW1,win wars, bomb fighter hangars, gv, fly for rank or plan missions. If a player wants to do that then why wouldn’t they just go to the WW2 arena? As far as the number of players online in the WW1 arena, on most weekdays you’ll usually see at least 3-4 players on during the day and up to 15 in the evening. On the weekends the numbers increase a little bit. Those players that are on are in there to furball or fight 1v1. From my experience in there, the 20 or so pilots who regularly fly in the WW1 arena are all excellent pilots, have great sportsmanship and are all fun to be around. I don’t think any of those guys would like to see the WW1 arena filled with the typical MA crowd.
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We don’t take bases in WW1,win wars, bomb fighter hangars, gv, fly for rank or plan missions. If a player wants to do that then why wouldn’t they just go to the WW2 arena? .
Maybe we would like to enjoy WW1 planes in different combat situations than just a furball or duel 1v1 ´right on the deck?
And why is it suddenly about "capture bases" or "win the war" when we are looking for ways to get more variety in combat, missions and more long-time appeal for more players?
I don’t think any of those guys would like to see the WW1 arena filled with the typical MA crowd.
:rolleyes:
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I enjoy flying in the WWI arena. I usually go in when there are numbers. It only has 4 planes and is limited to dog fighting only, but
down the line when it is more developed it will do fine. I personally think the slower flying planes are more fun to fly while
others prefer the faster WWII planes.
I have seen some pilots do really well in the camel and the D.VII. It really depends on how much time you spend with your ride.
No one flies behind the F2b for obvious reasons.
<S>
Mano
:airplane:
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Have been a WWI guy for a long time...and we, the larger community of WWI guys, don't currently have a home. There are a number of new accounts with AH because of the initial effort to develop a WWI arena. Though BoxBoy's comments are relatively brief, they are pretty much on the mark.
The people who developed AH had a well-populated and relatively well developed sim in DOA - and then it was sold to IEN. Little has happened in the past 10 years and the current version of DOA is not as well developed as what was there 10 years ago...and predictably there are few pilots.
There is a relatively large, and now wide ranging, group of folks who would prefer the old planes...but simply don't have a place that is very satisfactory to fly those planes. Most of then have gone to several WWII arenas by default, but if we had our druthers...would be in the old wood, wire and cloth planes. We remain optimistic...and I will keep my account alive in AH for that reason. I am certainly not alone in this. LOL...some of us currently have accounts in 4 different sims hoping one will develop at some point, and fly each now and again if for nothing more than to say Hi to an old friend.
Those folks who consistently complain that "any work on a WWI sim is a waste and simply detracts from further development of currently well developed WWII sim" that is well populated and not likely to have many more members for a modicum of additional development...grow really tiresome. There is a WWI audience...and when a diverse and relatively well developed arena is built...they will come.
On the DR1...with only a few folks in the arena and the fight on the deck...people are going to fly DR1's because they are more effective in that situation. When the crowd is a little larger and you can use vertical strategies to pick off individual DR's and then extend ... Dvii's can certainly work. Most people naturally worry about scores in a simple fur ball arena, you can say "not me"...but I suspect all of us would agree scores are some measure of the motivation to fly as we fly. In the current situation, you are going to do better in a DR. If you have patience and are willing to settle for fewer kills/sortie then there is no reason at all you can't do some form of b'nz, retaining superior alt, and be very effective in a Dvii. But, you are not going to often have 5 kill sorties. Maybe a scoring system that is more weighted toward survival and pcs would change the flying style. And, some folks truly like DR's. Taking them away will only further reduce numbers.
Hope all is well out there...
One
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Well,
A new plane, and a game that brings people into no mans land with a bit more separation would fill it up again, but its never going to be a new MA. The best if can hope for is 40 people a night, the gear in WW2 is just to interesting.
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2 things began to irk me about WW1--first and foremost, the Camel is barely competitive compared to Dr7/1...isn't faster, doesnt roll better, doesnt climb better..doesnt do ANYthing better. Considering the brutal view, there's no reason to fly it. #2, I noticed early on that the pilots who seemed to acquire the most kills were from the DA lake, and simply took their dweeby-whording gameplay into WW1. "Fly into the middle, get a 1 on 1!" About 1 of 3 of THOSE, tards fly in and gang you. HTC cant decode dumbarses
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The existence of this post indicates to me that the interest is still alive in WWI and that there is a community of WWI flyer's out there looking for a home, we have the potential to get it done and I hope HTC can do it :rock
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It became evident without an expanded stable of rides that the WWI Arena would devolve into a handfull of hardcore fans mowing the grass for eternity. The Dr1 as modeled is perfict at that role. The F1 needs a bit of air under it to take advantage of its strengths. The DVII seems lately to be used as a herding hound to keep you low and in one spot while the Dr1 mongrel pack cuts off your exit and eviserates you by sheer numbers. I can go to the DA Furball Lake for that and have better odds on surviving the mongeral pack by flying a Tempest. Other wise, I have to make sure I bring a Dr1 pack to use as bait against the other sides Dr1 pack.
MA furballs at their worst are like the current style of fruball in the WWI Arena. But, the MA has a dynamic component that eventualy kills that style of furball off because players loose intrest in the BORG like aspect of the furball or morphs them into a larger more complex battle. The more complex battle attracts the diversity of motivations for fighting which hallmark the player culture in the MA. As is, the WWI Arena has stagnated a bit because the only change in the dynamic is to stop taking part in that arena if you get tired of the rinse and repeat repetition.
If KOTH was the totality of motivation for all players in AH it would be obvious as the dominate cultural motivation in every arena in the game. But, by simple observation it's not. Good, bad, right, or wrong players will need a bit more diverse complexity to the WWI Arena to bring the numbers back in. I suspect from observation of HiTech, the current state of the WWI Arena is a work in progress to which he knows better than us how to analyse the relationship between players and the product to evolve the Arena.
My bets are all on HiTech....... :aok
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I had my mind made up before the arena ever opened that the DR1 would be the plane I fly. And I did fly in there for a month, got bored and moved back to the MA. I went back in there last week and only 2 people were logged in. :(
Funny how that happened.
Albert Einstein- " Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
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The new terrain editor came out today with trenches, destroyed woods & other WW1 goodies. Expect some new terrains soon. No, it doesn't change anything gameplay-wise, but at least there will be different environments to fight in.
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I suspect from observation of HiTech, the current state of the WWI Arena is a work in progress to which he knows better than us how to analyse the relationship between players and the product to evolve the Arena.
My bets are all on HiTech....... :aok
This. :aok
It has been proven many times before..
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Nobody was whining about it, people were just anxious for it because of the unknown factor. I remember the questionnaire that asked us customers if we would be interested in WW1 aviation. I for one answered that I would not be interested. Where are all the players that said they wanted this at? :headscratch:
Further evidence that the customer does not know squat.
I also put down that I would not be interested.
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I put down that i was very inerested. I log in and 4 or 6 players. So im like ya ... Maybe its just me and I am having a hard time adjusting.. Where the other guys plane looks like its at on my end and were it actully is on his end ( im guessing) makes it no fun.
I just cant get use to it. It looks like his front end is no were close to getting guns yet they do.... maybe its just a visual thing.... I dont have that problem in the MA....
<S>
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I think HTC was hoping to the the players from Rise Of Flight, but they just didn't show up for the party. As far as some kind of war in there, what would that be like? Mustard gas, horses and manned artillary batteries? Not much there to impress todays online gamers. I can't see WW1 being anymore then what it is now.
Well, this would be my WWI wet dream. Many may not agree:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,287993.msg3656065.html#msg3656065 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,287993.msg3656065.html#msg3656065)
Regards,
Wab
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Its not complete enough to fly there. When I first heard of it I had hopes of it being like the MA but WW1. Its more like the DA with WW1 planes.
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Well, this would be my WWI wet dream. Many may not agree:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,287993.msg3656065.html#msg3656065 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,287993.msg3656065.html#msg3656065)
Regards,
Wab
Wow, it looks like you've put a lot of thought into that. It does sound like it'd be fun. Certainly more fun than the present setup. I too think the place needs some kind of goal or end result to work towards. Without that the arena just doesn't have a purpose in my opinion.
With that being said though, some folks don't need or want a "purpose" to a game. I am amazed at some in the DA that have 1000s of sorties a month. That would bore the living crap out of me. But hey, whatever floats their boat.
No matter what HTC does or doesn't do to the WW1 arena, I'll still spend most all of my time in WW2. That's where my heart is. :salute
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"My bets are all on HiTech....... "
Mine too, he's seen a lot of stuff come and go.
I'm guessing he's figured this one out too.
And if he hasn't, I'm thinking we'll have user configurable arena's soon and we'll just do it ourselves.
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WWI is still alot of fun.
The main reason people don't fly it is because it's almost impossible to run away once in a fight :D
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The main reason people don't fly it is because it's almost impossible to run away once in a fight :D
Yeah sure (http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk121/TheAmish/rodney-dangerfield.jpg)
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I flew in there a few days, I got dizzy and left
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Same here .... it was fun for a bit until the novelty wore off and I got tired of hearing a bunch of Go cart engines puttering around !!
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They should salvage whatever they can from the old campaign mode we were testing and use pieces in WWI arena, if possible.
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Nobody was whining about it, people were just anxious for it because of the unknown factor. I remember the questionnaire that asked us customers if we would be interested in WW1 aviation. I for one answered that I would not be interested. Where are all the players that said they wanted this at? :headscratch:
Further evidence that the customer does not know squat.
Now wait a minute Grizz, I was one of them that said I would want it. I have played in the WWI arena several times, I dont think people were really ready for it. Everyone in here was so use to running 350 knots at 20,000 ft that going to what 140 knots and forever to climb to what you think is 5,000 ft kinda caught people off guard. Plus with the slower speeds and no clear objective it kinda takes away from the whole thing. No base captures, no bombing raids, no gv's...........its the whole experience that people want. When they start adding these things the number of people will go up. Its cool you didnt say yes to it, after all there are no 262's in WWI.........
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Heheh I love the quick one liners from all the "I hated the WWI idea from the beginning" :devil Somehow I just don't think their opinions in a WWI thread carry alot of weight :rofl
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Isn't WWI still kinda in test mode? Gotta work out the bugs first. :D
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Heheh I love the quick one liners from all the "I hated the WWI idea from the beginning" :devil Somehow I just don't think their opinions in a WWI thread carry alot of weight :rofl
I only said it has been done before and met with exactly the same result: unpopulated arenas.
The development time would have been better spent on the main product.
I don't hate something that brings any new subscriptions the the game. If you can prove that WW1 has done this, by all means do so.
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The development time would have been better spent on the main product.
I don't hate something that brings any new subscriptions the the game. If you can prove that WW1 has done this, by all means do so.
The WW1 component "IS" part of the main product.
I "AM" here because of the WW1 component.
In my humble opinion the game would have better been served had the Dr1 been added later on. I personly would have preferred the Albatross/SE5a match rather than the Dr1/F2b as one half the initial plane set. I also have come to believe that adding more to the WW1 component might not be a bad idea but I can just hear the howling now about putting any more time into the poor little stepchild of ww1.
I played for several hours last night with a small group of people and no one had the Dr1. We had a blast! Im in it to win it :)
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I only said it has been done before and met with exactly the same result: unpopulated arenas.
The development time would have been better spent on the main product.
I don't hate something that brings any new subscriptions the the game. If you can prove that WW1 has done this, by all means do so.
The problem with "its been done before" argument is that it is based on a management team that neglected the WWI arena after the creators of it left. I think this because I think you are referring to WB's, we do not have anywhere close to what the old DoA was back then but we could have because the guys who created that are HERE. I expect that arena would draw the WWI crowd that is waiting in the wings to find a home.
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Now wait a minute Grizz, I was one of them that said I would want it. I have played in the WWI arena several times, I dont think people were really ready for it. Everyone in here was so use to running 350 knots at 20,000 ft that going to what 140 knots and forever to climb to what you think is 5,000 ft kinda caught people off guard. Plus with the slower speeds and no clear objective it kinda takes away from the whole thing. No base captures, no bombing raids, no gv's...........its the whole experience that people want. When they start adding these things the number of people will go up. Its cool you didnt say yes to it, after all there are no 262's in WWI.........
I said no to it because I remember how the WW1 arena functioned in Air Warrior 3. I didn't think it was very fun.
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I expect that arena would draw the WWI crowd that is waiting in the wings to find a home.
I am completely unconvinced there is such a crowd. You're trying to say they won't play or don't already play AH or other sims due to the lack of WW1?
I don't buy it in any way. If it were the case, someone would have done it and made money off it by now, as there have been repeated attempts over the past 20 odd years to make WW1 flight sims available to online massive multiplayer environments. Each one has been a fleeting failure, and rapidly dissolved after minor interest on roll-out. Airwarrior had an arena. WB had one. Neither did well. It isn't out of line to expect this would do the same. I'm sure the next "big development" will be a Korea arena.... another composite failure of Airwarrior, which was big for about a day and a half, then had 4 maybe 5 guys in the arena on average.. Again, insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results.
I'm not knocking your interest. I'm simply stating fact. And, also, if ww1 keeps you here, then that is wonderful. I simply think IMHO it is a waste of resource better suited to developing the main product. <meh>
:salute
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I'm sure the next "big development" will be a Korea arena.... another composite failure of Airwarrior, which was big for about a day and a half, then had 4 maybe 5 guys in the arena on average.. Again, insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results.
I'm not knocking your interest. I'm simply stating fact. And, also, if ww1 keeps you here, then that is wonderful. I simply think IMHO it is a waste of resource better suited to developing the main product. <meh>
:salute
AW3 Korea I'd say had 10 guys on average and sometimes even more than that during its hay day. Korea was actually my home in AW until I made the switch to RRE1.
AW1 Korea, on the other hand, had lots of action and was some of the most fun I've ever had in flight sims.
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AW3 Korea I'd say had 10 guys on average and sometimes even more than that during its hay day. Korea was actually my home in AW until I made the switch to RRE1.
AW1 Korea, on the other hand, had lots of action and was some of the most fun I've ever had in flight sims.
i did not know there was such a thing,
seems that the focus is on ww2 witch i for one am happy about but the korea thing sounds like fun.
Sabers n Migs would be cool.
I would now like to lobby yet again for the METEOR :aok
froger
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My feelings are that the WW1 arena would do better if it was set up like the AvA with 2 sides, Allies vs. German side. People seem to have the tendency to even out the sides in a 2 sided fight more than a 3 sided (imo), so I don't think it would end up 20 DR1s against 2 Camels. People would want a fair fight, more or less, and split the numbers.
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I think that there are enough WWI fans to keep it populated at least as well as Midwar, providing they have something to do other than pure furball.
From what I saw when I was flying regularly in there.
You had 2 or 3 really good pilots, people would gravitate and collect around them.
(As they lived longer that way) Until a point was reached, and the good pilots would jump to a different country.
And the process would repeat itself.
Unless you were totally rocking your game, or flying with not against those supersticks.
It was often very very frustrating trying to survive long enough to land a kill.
Now I never considered myself better than an average pilot.
But eventually it just got to be more frustration than I could deal with.
Thats why I have said, and will continue to say that the WWI arena needs "more" to do than just furball.
The furball will exist as long as people are there. What we need are fun things to do to keep the people coming back.
Balloon busting, scouting, photo recon, zep hunting, Convoy busting are just a few of the possibility's.
None of them have to be tied to "win the war" or base taking.
All of them will give people something to do when they are tired of or frustrated with the furball.
As well as encourage people to fly something other than the Dr1.
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From what I saw when I was flying regularly in there.
You had 2 or 3 really good pilots, people would gravitate and collect around them.
(As they lived longer that way) Until a point was reached, and the good pilots would jump to a different country.
And the process would repeat itself.
Unless you were totally rocking your game, or flying with not against those supersticks.
It was often very very frustrating trying to survive long enough to land a kill.
I think you are highlighting a very important aspect.
It's not only that some mission diversity can keep players like myself from being bored.
It also can give the majority of "average" and "less than average" players an opportunity to have fun, a feeling of "win" or having accomplished their mission even if they don't stand any chance in dogfighting. In the LW AM, resupplying fields, manning guns, driving tanks, flying buffs & goons, and yes: participating in that capture thing, can give many players a way to have fun that would quickly be gone out of sheer frustration if it was about "pure" furballing only.
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I am completely unconvinced there is such a crowd.
The Skeleton Crew (in AH) currently consists of 6 members, and as far as I am aware at least 5 of them have only recently signed on to AH specifically to fly WW1. We are traditionally an Allied squad, and are hoping to track down more old members with a total possible 'regroup' of maybe a dozen or so. In addition to this I know of many more non SC from the old Flying Circus mob who intend to try it, again with more to track down who may want to have a looksee.
As for the sim itself, as already stated by others HiTech knows what he's doing and almost certainly has a good plan. The success of the product depends on the market, so perhaps my 2 cents worth will help in some small way.
I can only speak for a small group, but I do know that generally we like good company (tick), an accurate flight model (provisional tick), and lashings of historical flavouring (sadly, no tick).
The provisional tick for the FM is abit unfair, mainly it's excellent; our issue with the Camel vs DR1 has been discussed elsewhere. As for the historical stuff I'm referring mainly to the three country system and the availability of all aircraft to all countries. I realise this is subjective but to us it's like watching a WW1 movie where both sides (or all three sides?) fly DR1's.
I don't know why anyone would be suprised by the discovery that a bunch of people signing on for a WW1 flight sim would want as complete an experience (i.e. virtual WW1 air combat) as possible, bar the cold wind and the fearful wounds. So anything we can get, we'll take - including observation balloons, trucks and trains to shoot at, etc. But in the absence of those it's byo fun, and the guys in the WW1 arena are always a hoot to fly with (or against) :salute
It might be worth considering sending the new 'recruits' our way - I've seen another thread which mentions the problem of the steep learning curve in WW2, what better place to learn the ropes than WW1? Hop in, start her up and try not to rip the wings off, these guys will look after you. The more the merrier. I'm not sure what the chances are of being allowed to RTB with damage in the WW2 arena, but it happens quite alot in WW1. That type of behaviour is becoming more common, and should help encourage those new to the sim to stick around.
I can see that the majority of players in WW2 may not have much interest in WW1, but I think the two can co-exist simbiotically. I wouldn't dream of just 'popping in' to a WW2 arena (way too much stuff to sort out) but WW1 being so basic (in terms of getting into action) it should work the other way, so I think it has something to offer everyone.
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So what would it take for WW1 to become a functioning arena? I think some sort of small scale war with objectives would go a long way, but at this point I don't know if it is worth it.
Having a greater plane selection would also help....
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Balloon busting, scouting, photo recon, zep hunting, Convoy busting are just a few of the possibility's.
None of them have to be tied to "win the war" or base taking.
Ghosth,
I respectfully disagree. If those activities have no effect, no point, no purpose, no meaning, I doubt they will create a viable arena. I can't imagine myself taking up a recon plane, flying all the way to some point, hitting a key and getting "you have taken a photo" message if it has no purpose, no effect, no reason to do it.
Play baseball as a youngster? Imagine 2 teams out on the field lined up against each other just playing catch. Throwing the ball back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.... Now don't get me wrong, I enjoy playing catch on occation. Its fun for a while, and good practice. But eventually, it’s insufficient. So coach says, that’s ok, you can go run around those bases like you were scoring a homerun. Well, you can “imagine” you were scoring a homerun, but we're not keeping score and no one is going to bother to try and stop you because it doesn't matter, but it will give you something else to do besides play catch. Would that be enough to magically make it fun? Would that be satisfying? Would you feel silly? Can you imagine a whole season like that? Would the players keep coming back?
Meanwhile on the adjacent field they are playing football. Sure they have practices too, but on Fri nights they get to play a game! A structured contest with rules, a variety of roles and purposes, a reward/punishment point system. Instead of everyone just passing the ball back and forth, they divide up into a hierarchy roles each with their own tasks and purposes (blockers, rushers, receivers, quarterbacks, etc). Now you have a system of interacting and conflicting missions as rushers attempt to break the line and blockers attempt to stop them..And quaterback’s try to avoid the rushers that make it through to complete a pass to a receiver who is in turn being covered by the opposing team trying to prevent him from achieving that goal. Binding all this together is a scoring system that provides the reward/punishment feedback and persists a record of each team’s success or failure to achieve its goals over the course of the contest. Nothing concentrates the mind quite like a score. Now you’ve created goal oriented conflict. Now you’ve created drama and intensity. One team is trying to accomplish an interacting set of goals and the other team is trying thwart those goals and the scoring system records which have been successful and which have failed.
So, by the end of the season, most of the baseball players have stopped showing up. Why bother? They’d rather go play football. Not necessarily because they prefer football in and of itself, but at least there is a real GAME going on over there.
So eventually baseball fails, and some football fans heckle “See, no one likes baseball! Baseball failed!”. Well, it was certainly setup that way in any case.
Regards,
Wab
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Ghosth,
So eventually baseball fails, and some football fans heckle “See, no one likes baseball! Baseball failed!”. Well, it was certainly setup that way in any case.
Very astute comparison and synopsis, actually.
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I am completely unconvinced there is such a crowd. You're trying to say they won't play or don't already play AH or other sims due to the lack of WW1?
I don't buy it in any way. ............................. ..........................
:salute
It appears that your experience DIDNOT include DoA when Hitech was doing it??? or you have a "selective" memory. WWI in AW was a step sister with poor graphics even compared to the WWII arena's of the time, DoA was killed by IEN after Dale and company left, and there are TON's of WWI flyers currently playing the products open to them (OFF, Red Baron III, RoF, and a few more I can't think of off the top of my head) who are not playing AH, IL2 or any other WWII offering.
I think you are opposed to WWI for the same reasons you were before and nothing (for you) has changed, even though as far as I can tell nothing has slowed down in the WWII developement area.
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I think you are opposed to WWI for the same reasons you were before and nothing (for you) has changed, even though as far as I can tell nothing has slowed down in the WWII developement area.
Same reasons as I've stated repeatedly. Should those reasons become false, I will readily admit. But, seeing as there are currently 4 people in the WW1 arena, and ~500 in the two LW, I guess one could postulate I might be on to something.
Like I said, if you like it, GREAT. Now go get more folks to subscribe and to enjoy it with. Otherwise, it is a complete waste of time and programming that could fix the issues in the product that the VAST MAJORITY of us are here for, and pay for. Get it yet?
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it is a complete waste of time and programming that could fix the issues in the product that the VAST MAJORITY of us are here for
Im here for the WW2 arenas (MW fan) as well. What issues are you talking about?
In what way has the addition of four new planes and a terrain so profoundly impacted the development of the LW arenas? Do you have a specific issue that you believe has been impacted?
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Nope. Same reasons as I've stated repeatedly. Should those reasons become false, I will readily admit. But, seeing as there are currently 4 people in the WW1 arena, and ~500 in the two LW, I guess one could postulate I might be on to something.
Like I said, if you like it, GREAT. Now go get more folks to subscribe and to enjoy it with. Otherwise, it is a complete waste of time and programming that could fix the issues in the product that the VAST MAJORITY of us are here for, and pay for. Get it yet?
Moray,
I think "a complete waste of time " is inaccurate and unfair.
I do agree, like baseball compared to football in this country, WWI will never generate the numbers that WWII will. Point taken. But there is a WWI enthusiast population out there. Red Baron II 3D had an active, dedicated player-base a decade after the company that released it stopped supporting it. ROF has made an impressive impact in the flightsim world even with all its problems and the controversy surrounding its security model. There are WWI flyers out there that could be harvested with the right arena format.
Perhaps you forget one of the advantages of the WWI arena is it gives HTC a testbed for technologies that are eventually meant for its WWII MA. Its gives them a place to work those out before effecting its bread and butter arenas. That’s a valuable tool.
Many of the things needed to make the WWI arena fun already exist from the WWII code and just need to be adapted. (e.g. 3 plane Gotha bomber formation would work just like 3 bomber formations in WWII) Other things like some of the stuff I suggested (Shameless plug: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,287993.msg3656065.html#msg3656065 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,287993.msg3656065.html#msg3656065)) while needing to be added, might have good application in the WWII world.
3 tank formation (primary and 2 drones like the bombers) would be just as neat a feature with panzers as with the WWI variety.
The Strategic Balance Point model might be useful for WWII special events.
Utilizing WWI arena as a proving ground for technologies destined for the WWII arena is a win-win proposition and far from a “complete waste of time”. But for it to work, the WWI arena needs to provide as rich a gaming experience as the WWII arena to be viable.
HTC wouldn’t dare remove all strat, bombers, base capture from the WWII MA. They know there is no way at this point in MMOG development that their WWII players would be satisfied with a simplistic H2H mosh-pit. Nowadays players demand much more depth and sophistication in their game-play. There is no reason to assume that WWI enthusiasts are any less discerning.
Regards,
Wab
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"I respectfully disagree. If those activities have no effect, no point, no purpose, no meaning, I doubt they will create a viable arena. I can't imagine myself taking up a recon plane, flying all the way to some point, hitting a key and getting "you have taken a photo" message if it has no purpose, no effect, no reason to do it."
Wabbit I didn't say they could have no point no purpose. I just said that those purposes did not have to be tied to winning the war. There is a difference between a sortie having an effect, + or -,for you or your country, and that sortie having an effect on winning the war.
There are many things that could be done, that would encourage people to participate, that would not necessarily have to be tied to winning the war in order to do so. We are not necessarily tied to the way it has been done before. We have the option to build from scratch here. Think outside the box!
Suppose a successful photo recon sweep extended radar range for your country for 15 min?
What if a successful Zep hunting mission reduced the enemys radar range for 15 min?
What if a balloon busting mission could increase the range or accuracy of AA guns for you country?
What if a player was able to successfully complete each type of mission and got an "award" or medal. Similar to the way landing kills gets our name in lights?
There are many different ways to encourage participation. There are many things that can be done. Because some of them were tied to "winning the war" in WWII does not mean they have to be setup the same way for WWI.
There are many things that could be added that would give many people something to do other than pure furball.
That does not necessarily mean we need the same dynamic war winning setup we have in the other arena's.
In fact endlessly rolling fields in order to reset the map in midwar is just about as dead as the current WWI arena.
I suspect it will bring little long lasting activity to the WWI arena.
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In fact endlessly rolling fields in order to reset the map in midwar is just about as dead as the current WWI arena.
Well if you read my wishlist post you’d see I was never suggesting field capture.
Frankly I like your suggestions, but I don’t understand why they have to be mutually exclusive to what I was suggesting. Couldn’t these activities have the effect you suggested as well as contributing points to a set of victory conditions?
Allowing a team to “Win the War” creates an identifiable beginning, middle, and end to the game play. It gives an excuse to distribute victory perks to the winner (to be spent on cool stuff like zeps and tanks) , and it’s a good excuse to switch the map to another of the hundreds of WWI maps USRanger is going to make for us. ;)
Everyone likes to say they don’t care about “win deh war”, but I’ve seen some incredibly intense battles as one team tries to complete that last capture to reset the map in WWII and the other team throws everything they got at them trying to stop them. Having an definable, achievable “WIN” criteria is a great mechanism to focus activity. I’m not sure what you have against it. It beats a never ending treadmill IMHO.
In any case, I think we at least agree the current setup certainly ain’t cut’n it.
Regards,
Wab
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Allowing a team to “Win the War” creates an identifiable beginning, middle, and end to the game play. It gives an excuse to distribute victory perks to the winner (to be spent on cool stuff like zeps and tanks) , and it’s a good excuse to switch the map to another of the hundreds of WWI maps USRanger is going to make for us. Wink
:aok
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In the backfeild of each country have a supply train that starts at a primary hardened giant depot with secondary depot stops that then deliver by truck to the airfeilds. Take down the depots, train or trucks and you interrupt supply delivery to feilds for object rebuilds during that resupply period or however long the depot stays down. Maybe have supply trucks players can drive at any time to speed up feild rebuilding or from between depots.
Because the maps are so small, have artillery batteries of 6 guns that a player controls from a balloon acting as a spotter/gunner like the 8inch shore batteries. When in the balloon the zoom effect from there will be very precise and long distance along with using land mode. Give the player a machine gun. With the ballon destroyed a player has to use land mode the map and a spotter plane. The artillery can be used to shell airfeilds to knock out feild ack, fuel, ord and kill upping planes. When all the feild ack is down you can vulch until the supply convoys resupply the auto ack. Manned machinguns will be necessary on airfeilds.
The manned artillery can be destroyed and it will randomly respawn along a front line with its spotting balloon or several artillery batteries can be available with spotting ballons that will randomly respawn after the battery is destroyed. Manable machingun positions will be necessary. Make it possible for a spotting plane to help one of the batteries engage enemy battry positions. Say there is a combination of spawn points for the batteries where they can long range fire on each other. A secondary rail line could host a destroyable train gun for each country that uses land mode and the map or the help of spotter planes.
Another thought for the artillery would be like taking control of a CV. You can request an artillery battery to pack up and relocate if your rank is high enough. The truck convoy delivering your artillery would be fair game to enemy fighters and bombers. Once killed the convoy would resume its previous position ready to fire.
This would require bombers, zepplins and a few more planes for the stable. The primary depot and the secondary depots will need lots of destroyable auto ack to make them the hardest targets in the arena to destroy. If you want to win the map then you destroy the primary depot of 2 countries along with at least one of their truck supply depots or some combination of requirements. Allow artillery and bombing to shut down all but one enemy airfeild totaly for say 5-8 minutes. Give each country 3-4 airfeilds. Allow players to drive supply trucks from other airfeilds or the truck depots at any time to help bring airfeilds back up sooner.
I'm looking at winning the war as a static destroy some number of hard to kill fixed targets to be a refelction of the static nature of the real WWI. Winning the map would really be winning that offensive or campaign. You would get your football game complexity with this.
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Same reasons as I've stated repeatedly. Should those reasons become false, I will readily admit. But, seeing as there are currently 4 people in the WW1 arena, and ~500 in the two LW, I guess one could postulate I might be on to something.
Like I said, if you like it, GREAT. Now go get more folks to subscribe and to enjoy it with. Otherwise, it is a complete waste of time and programming that could fix the issues in the product that the VAST MAJORITY of us are here for, and pay for. Get it yet?
Well based on the follow up posts to yours I am afraid your the one who doesn't get it, give WWI everything WWII has in the way of plane choice and strat and score and THEN come tell me how they compare for numbers. You seem to want to have a contest where one side has its' hands tied behind its' back, then talk about the outcome like it was some sort of fair comparison.
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Where are all the players that said they wanted this at? :headscratch:
Further evidence that the customer does not know squat.
They are hanging out with the AvA (insert AvA modification) guys :lol
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They are hanging out with the AvA (insert AvA modification) guys :lol
Something wrong with "AvA guys" toots?
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I still wonder why folks come to a WWII game wanting to play WWI.
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Something wrong with "AvA guys" toots?
Other than that they change everything so they can have an arena for 2 or 3 weeks and then bail, nop. Same with WWI. The WTG HT and Thank you HT and I waited all my life for this, this is the best thing ever, bla bla bla bla. Where are those guys now? I am sure they are not there because of the DR1.
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Shuffler...et al.
Guessing it is fun for some to use the needle a little, most of us have done that in some thread or another. We have our own "Mr. Trouble" who does posts now and again.
Don't know why we are sometimes hooked and repeat ourselves or argue when folks are simply putting bait on the bottom. But, here goes...
Not that it will make any difference saying this; there are a lot of people flying WWII flight sims as a default situation since there is no existing well-developed WWI flight sim, when a WWI sim is where they really want to fly.
The AH folks developed the best, most diverse and well thought out, WWI flight sim in my experience some 12 or 13 years ago. They quickly sold that business to another company and the sim they started digressed with each "downdate" to the point it is less developed today than it was when it was sold. There is no one in that arena. Not because WWI is not interesting...the sim is simply stale.
So...why not hope the people at AH might once again be interested in that WWI time frame and work on another arena for people who like the planes of that period. It is pretty narrow, perhaps selfish (?), of you to suggest only your interest has merit, and maybe even a little degrading to some of us who dwell so low on the food chain that we still like these planes. Alas, there we are.
There is room for a WWI arena and there is a potential upside of additional income from a WWI arena. I can't imagine this ultra simple arena has caused anyone flying in the WWII arenas to leave AH. Who knows, if there was enough upside there could even be more resources for development of all the arenas...there might even be more revenue, what a concept.
Oh well, knowing full well you are just leaving bait on the bottom...hope I did not get the hook, but suspect I did.
Take care and enjoy your WWII sim. We absolutely do not begrudge you that...nor are we whining for updates and etc. for the WWI arena. It will happen if it is warranted. We hope it does, but if not, we will keep looking.
And yes, I did subscribe two months ago specifically for the WWI arena. I can fly decent WWII sims in a number of places, but WWI has the best chance with the folks at AH, so we will stick around and see how it plays out.
One
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Good post Onerka. Not everyone that enjoys flight sims wants to fly WWII. There are lots of positive things that will come out of the
WWI arena. The new damage model is second to none. Parts fly off, animations, the FM changes with damage, and so forth will be
added to the WWII arenas. I think Big Jim summed it up pretty good in an earlier post.
I remember when DoA was being done by Hitech and Pyro and there was PLENTY of interest in WWI then, it never died till IEN killed it with their bogus FM. All The WWI arena needs is a few more planes (DVa, SE5a, Newport 17, Spad VII, and XIII) for starters along with a couple of Bomber types and some strat targets and wala plenty of guys back in WWI.
I wanted WWI and will still go in there to fly from time to time but more stuff is needed to make it work, most of the RoF guys are off-line commando's wanting to fly "missions" and fight only AI, but some WILL come for the dogfights, I own both games and I prefer HTC's version of WWI.
I think some of the guys got bored and the limited plane set has hurt too, but if they use the old DoA format I think the arena would draw alot of guys.
BigJim
I left a post in the wishlist forum suggesting what the next four planes should be. Allot of folks agreed on the selection and their was another good suggestion by the4fork
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,287693.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,287693.0.html)
If you have a suggestion for what planes they should add, leave a post.
<S>
Mano
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+S+ One and Mano! Having a big passion for all things aviation (flight sims are a very fun diversion), I'm happy to see we have an online sim available that has good support and constant development. I'm interested to see what HTC will do to the WWI arena. They are off to a great start.
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I know that "what they said" is simple,but..WHAT THEY SAID! one,mano and kungfu may as well speak for me too. Gonfer. :airplane:
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It also can give the majority of "average" and "less than average" players an opportunity to have fun, a feeling of "win" or having accomplished their mission even if they don't stand any chance in dogfighting. In the LW AM, resupplying fields, manning guns, driving tanks, flying buffs & goons, and yes: participating in that capture thing, can give many players a way to have fun that would quickly be gone out of sheer frustration if it was about "pure" furballing only.
Honestly, this is a MAJOR issue that is often overlooked by the skilled players. I played for maybe 5 years before realizing I'd maxed out, that I just wasn't going to get any better. During my essentially endless learning curve there were definitely times that I'd give up on the AtA I loved just because I needed to do something I felt I could do RIGHT. Without those extra successful activities it just gets too discouraging for the middle and lower echelons.
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Shuffler...et al.
Guessing it is fun for some to use the needle a little, most of us have done that in some thread or another. We have our own "Mr. Trouble" who does posts now and again.
Don't know why we are sometimes hooked and repeat ourselves or argue when folks are simply putting bait on the bottom. But, here goes...
Not that it will make any difference saying this; there are a lot of people flying WWII flight sims as a default situation since there is no existing well-developed WWI flight sim, when a WWI sim is where they really want to fly.
I quit reading here.... same old blah. Don't try to change this game. Go support a WWI game. There are not many as no one supports them.
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Was just over in the RoF English forums. RoF as it stands cannot support more than 16 aircraft types per server. Someone is putting up 32 types available on his server which is causing out of memory errors for the players. At least HiTech has the ability to present large numbers of aircraft and AI objects to his subscribers over the other companys focus on eyecandy first as their selling point.
Four more aricraft types and the beginings of something more than a perpetual lawn mowing furball and players will come back to the WWI Arena. Roads that host artillery battreries that can be moved like controlling a CV to hit enemy airfeilds. Ballons to fire control the batteries from. Supply trains, trucks and depots intergal to winning the map that can be destroyed. Allow vulching at airfeilds and closing them down with artillery and bombs. Manned machingun positions to defend feilds and other objects along with being able to destroy the auto ack.
Give players a way to hurt the other guy without having to be an uber ace fighter pilot and more players will play knowing that they can be shot down anyway. At least they can break a few strat toys to inconvienience the uber stick jock before he finds and kills them. Or they can vulch him, or artillery him, or take his whole map away and win the war from him. Aircombat in WWI developed out of a need to spot the enemy's formations and deployments then defend the spotting plane so it could get the intel home.
Both sides relyed on the train to move supplies within strategic distance of the fronts to keep the war going. The fronts developed in response to rail line access. Kill a supply train or its supply yards and there was a direct trickle down effect on the war at the front. Artillery was the primary agent of massed delivery of destruction at the front with almost a dozen named styles and tactics of barrage. The early tanks did not have as much of an impact on the war as artillery did. But, if the war had lasted into 1919 they would have made trenches obsolete.
Flying around in cricles mowing grass and shooting at mostly Dr1 is boring after about 15 minutes. I've been playing these games since AW in the late 80's. Even I know the current state of the WWI Arena is boring.
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agreed bustr.
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Don't try to change this game. Go support a WWI game.
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." Not a slam shuff, just something to think about.
Keep working it HTC. You have something very special on your hands in the first world war arena.
Yeager :pray
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I quit reading here.... same old blah. Don't try to change this game. Go support a WWI game. There are not many as no one supports them.
There also is nothing new in your attitude toward WWI, you have been opposed to it from the first so why I wonder do you bother to come to a thread like this and make the comments you do????
I suspect it is because you KNOW there is an interest in WWI and you are still afraid that somehow YOU will lose something if some time is given to WWI developement. NO one is trying to change WWII, we just like the addition of WWI and want to see more developement of it.
Please stop trying to divide the community, I am sure we can all support both WWI and WWII without hassels if some of you would just take a deep breath and give things a chance.
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I quit reading here.... same old blah.
Strange. I had the same reaction to your post.
:rolleyes:,
Wab
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So there are like 3 pilots actually in the WW1 arena. Why don't the 3 of you just agree to fly something different? :D
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So there are like 3 pilots actually in the WW1 arena. Why don't the 3 of you just agree to fly something different? :D
Hehe.... actually, I have seen some of the best sticks in the ww2 game come in to the WW1 arena and get thoroughly spanked in very short order.
Perhaps the real truth of the matter is that being brought back down to genuine grade A noob status is more than most of the so called "best sticks" in AH care to handle. And of course there is the Dr1 which has caused quite a few folks to throw up their hands and go back to easier routines.
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So there are like 3 pilots actually in the WW1 arena. Why don't the 3 of you just agree to fly something different? :D
So like get your facts straight and then come back and post :mad: There are as many folks in WWI on average as EW or MW and if WWI gets fleshed out it will draw far more than either of those and AvA :rock
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There also is nothing new in your attitude toward WWI, you have been opposed to it from the first so why I wonder do you bother to come to a thread like this and make the comments you do????
I suspect it is because you KNOW there is an interest in WWI and you are still afraid that somehow YOU will lose something if some time is given to WWI developement. NO one is trying to change WWII, we just like the addition of WWI and want to see more developement of it.
Please stop trying to divide the community, I am sure we can all support both WWI and WWII without hassels if some of you would just take a deep breath and give things a chance.
Same reason you try to change AH to suit yourself rather than find a game that suits what your looking for.
Yeager.... Big shots are usually of low caliber...... not a slam just something to think about :D
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Same reason you try to change AH to suit yourself rather than find a game that suits what your looking for.
Yeager.... Big shots are usually of low caliber...... not a slam just something to think about :D
I just dont see how adding more planes and terrains threatens the game. In my way of thinking "the more the better".
Caliber Point well made. I need to handload some more 45-70. Good shooting weather just around the corner :x
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Same reason you try to change AH to suit yourself rather than find a game that suits what your looking for.
Yeager.... Big shots are usually of low caliber...... not a slam just something to think about :D
This your silliest post yet. I am not trying to change WWII at all, I am trying to get a playable WWI added. Your the one with all the toys screaming that you will not get your next new one if someone else gets something. Maybe you should go find a WWII ONLY game since this one now HAS WWI and you seem to abhor that.
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Hehe.... actually, I have seen some of the best sticks in the ww2 game come in to the WW1 arena and get thoroughly spanked in very short order.
Perhaps the real truth of the matter is that being brought back down to genuine grade A noob status is more than most of the so called "best sticks" in AH care to handle. And of course there is the Dr1 which has caused quite a few folks to throw up their hands and go back to easier routines.
+1 :old: :neener: elfy