Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Yarbles on January 06, 2011, 04:08:01 AM
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I know all you "super pros" may not like this but:
Spit 14 perked eny 5 k4 not perked eny 20 mmmmmmmmmmmmm :headscratch:
These planes are very evenly matched buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut there is the tater. We all know its hard to hit stuff with the TATER right? Except with a bit of practive allot of people see this as a major positive and seem to hit very well with it ;)
Overall the system should be fare in my humble opinion :frown:
One of the fastest best climbing best accelerating planes in the game second to none in the vertical is eny 20 :headscratch:
Lets see who is totally unobjective now and is going to defend that :eek: :uhoh
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Spit14 outdoes the 109K4 still at altitude and iirc outturns it still at any alt. Hispanos have always been easier to use than a Mk108 30mm also. Carries more ammo that in fighter to fighter battles does the same effect as one 30mm. 250 rounds of hizookas compared to 65 30mm. Most flyers cannot shoot a 30mm easily and will waste the ammo while the 20mm is more accurate and just as deadly. That and the fact that the sporkteen has 500 rounds of M2 .50 cal. The 109K4 has iirc 300 12.7mm? Spit14 also seems easier to use compared to the 109K4 if you are newer to the game. Spit14 will always deserve the 10 perks (which by the way, 10perks for an average pilot is two sorties maybe three).
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Spit14 will always deserve the 10 perks (which by the way, 10perks for an average pilot is two sorties maybe three).
I'm not sure I will comment again on the Spit 14 issue again other than stating it should not be perked at all :devil.
But 10 perks is much more than only two or three sorties for the average pilot. The arena average is 0,53 kills per sortie and less than 1/3rd of all sorties are being landed at all. Assuming a rather optimistic 1 perk gain per kill it's probably more like 20+ sorties for "Mr Average."
Oh... and there mus be a reason the 14 has traditionally a puny K/D ratio for a perk plane... it' cant be because all the n00bs are flying it... the usage numbers are very low (one of the rarest birds in game) ;)
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But 10 perks is much more than only two or three sorties for the average pilot. The arena average is 0,53 kills per sortie and less than 1/3rd of all sorties are being landed at all. Assuming a rather optimistic 1 perk gain per kill it's probably more like 20+ sorties for "Mr Average."
Oh... and there mus be a reason the 14 has traditionally a puny K/D ratio for a perk plane... it' cant be because all the n00bs are flying it... the usage numbers are very low (one of the rarest birds in game) ;)
well lusche. Statistics are understandable but statistics can only go so far. Average skill and average kill death ratio are different. You cannot find stats on skill levels here. just overall averages. That could be made because for every person with a 1.0-1.5 average for K/D there is 2 to 3 new members. Although now that i think of it that way you may be correct. Just depends on how you look at it.
Honestly though, one of my pilots in the 20th flew the spitfire 14 for his first time, he flew it somewhat like a mustang and killed 3 and rtb'd. i did the same flight and got 5 and very luckily rtb'd with him. The Spitfire14 may have such rare use and low K/D because most people do not know how to fly it. I didn't know the spit14 was a high alt speed demon until last year and ive been here for almost 7 now! Up until last year i flew the spit14 low like all the other spits trying to figure out why it was perked getting absolutely no kills (and i know for a fact im not the only one who has done this). suddenly i use it correctly and get an average of 3-5 per sortie.
If you taught every pilot where to fly it (at alt) you'd see that K/D and usage skyrocket... :aok
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Spit14 outdoes the 109K4 still at altitude and iirc outturns it still at any alt. Hispanos have always been easier to use than a Mk108 30mm also. Carries more ammo that in fighter to fighter battles does the same effect as one 30mm. 250 rounds of hizookas compared to 65 30mm. Most flyers cannot shoot a 30mm easily and will waste the ammo while the 20mm is more accurate and just as deadly. That and the fact that the sporkteen has 500 rounds of M2 .50 cal. The 109K4 has iirc 300 12.7mm? Spit14 also seems easier to use compared to the 109K4 if you are newer to the game. Spit14 will always deserve the 10 perks (which by the way, 10perks for an average pilot is two sorties maybe three).
You trying to say something BAR?
:airplane:
Spork
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You trying to say something BAR?
:airplane:
Spork
been saying it before i even met you (let alone you joining the squad) :lol :aok <S> bud
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well lusche. Statistics are understandable but statistics can only go so far. Average skill and average kill death ratio are different. You cannot find stats on skill levels here. just overall averages. That could be made because for every person with a 1.0-1.5 average for K/D there is 2 to 3 new members. Although now that i think of it that way you may be correct. Just depends on how you look at it.
You said average pilot, and the pilots getting a solid 1-1,5 k/d are a small minority in the game (only ~15% reaching 1.5 or better). And actually most players are even well below that 0.53 kills/sortie I mentioned, which is based on all player sorties totaled. Almost 70% stay even below that mark. Only very few players can make 6-7 perks per sortie on average. It's more like what I end up with in a good month... and yes, I think I'm way above average ;)
The Spitfire14 may have such rare use and low K/D because most people do not know how to fly it.(...). suddenly i use it correctly and get an average of 3-5 per sortie.
If you taught every pilot where to fly it (at alt) you'd see that K/D and usage skyrocket... :aok
Guess what? I have flown the 14 quite a bit too, and I'm also getting a lot of kills out of it. Does that mean the thing is perk worthy compared to other planes? Nope. I can do it in other planes too. I have also over 1000 kills in LW arena in a Hurricane I at K/D 4.32... it really should be perked! ;) Individual success is hardly a guide.
I'm also wondering about the frequent "just no one knows how to fly it" argument. Why on the world should the XIV magically attract all the incompetent pilots? Every tour, year after year? The real n00bs can't even fly that plane, yet the 2010 K/D of the 14 is only slightly higher than the Spit 16's (1.11) - and the latter one is THE plane of the masses and new players.
And let's not forget, perking is all about impact on arena gameplay.
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If an average pilot flies a 5 eny plane he will need to have a k/d of around 10;1 to sustain spit 14 usage. I managed about 4.5 :1 last tour and realise I have a long way to go :rolleyes: :rolleyes:.
No lets just keep it simple and say there is no objective reason why the 14 is perked and if it wasn't more people would still fly the 9,8 and 16. Just like the K4 you have to learn how to fly it and use its strengths and only people who are willing to persevere with it like the K4 will reap its benefits.
Unperk the 14 and make the K4 ENY 10 makes sense.
Please 321 get a grip on reality before you make any ridiculous statements about what an average pilot can do. I think there is a competition here someotimes to see who can makes the most silly comment. The average pilot in here in my experience gets most of his Kills by HOING other average pilots and whineing about it on 200 when he loses the toss. When someone doesn't try to HO me that usually means they are above average :D
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I'm fully in favor of the 14 being unperked for sure, but I don't think the K4 needs to be perked or even brought down in eny. Of the two, the K4 is simply harder to use effectively, harder to see out of, much harder to control, with the torque being such a giant factor in it, and a very poor turner, until you get a hand on how to make it work for you. I've never seen the Spit14 as a major threat when I've run into it, but it does have way better guns and is easier to fly overall.
Just the other day several of us were in the DA and someone wanted to fly Spit 9s, I accidentally got a 14 and was turning with the 9s without any trouble. And I essentially never fly spits. So it's not really that hard to turn with either, it's just not quite as point and shoot as the 8 and 16 is. It's a good plane, just not quite perkworthy in my opinion.
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K4 is definately a harder ride just because of the MK108, once you learn it you can be lethal but hispanos and M2s will always be easier. Do I think the Spit 14 should be perked? No, Does the K4s eny need to be dropped? Probably...but theres alot of planes with eny which don't match the plane itself.
TA152.....probably should be 15-20 range
KI84......10-15 not 20
Spit16....perked
PonyD.....maybe perked
Brewster......DEFINATELY NOT 30.....
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Think you'd be better off comparing the 16 and the 14 for your argument.
K4 has nothing in common with the 14 aside from being driven by a piston engine.
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I find the ME109-K4 an easier plane to fly in some ways. It seams much more forgiving if you stall it out in a turn and I like the way they fly. I have had problems with strange high speed stalls in the 14s. If the K-4 had a 20mm gun package available I may agree about the ENY being to low. If I am going to burn perks up on a ride I will pay a bit more for the Tempest over the Spit 14 any day. I don't see that much difference in the 14 and the 16 to have one with no perk cost and the other perked.
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I don't believe the 14 should be perked at all. it's a beast to handle, much too difficult for a new player - or even an average player at that. The Spit 14 gives me the least worry out of the entire series. I think the K4 is a superior plane. Its ENY value is fine where it is though. Climb rate and turning ability are not the only factors in deciding ENY. Ordnance load and range are also huge, which is why an ENY of 20 for the K4 makes sense.
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Think you'd be better off comparing the 16 and the 14 for your argument.
K4 has nothing in common with the 14 aside from being driven by a piston engine.
The K4 and Spit 14 have similar top of the range climb, speed and accelaration figures as well as similar turning circles and that they tend to have advantages over other planes which are accentuated by altitude. They both tend to excell in the vertical fight and have significant torque effects.
Appart form those 7 key attributes very little in common though :D
:neener: :lol :rofl :old:
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The K4 and Spit 14 have similar top of the range climb, speed and accelaration figures as well as similar turning circles and that they tend to have advantages over other planes which are accentuated by altitude. They both tend to excell in the vertical fight and have significant torque effects.
Appart form those 7 key attributes very little in common though :D
:neener: :lol :rofl :old:
Darned if you did not take the words out of my mouth. The 14 is about the only perk ride that I up regularly. K4 torques left, 14 torques right. Perfect setup for a midair collision! LOL I won't comment on perking or ENY changes for either, as this is still a somewhat complicated process (at least to me) that HTC uses to determine these things. Only K-4 fight I have had recently is with Suns, and he has had my number in Spits for a while. <S> Suns.
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hmmm lets see, take the 14 up to 10k get it into the 500 mph range do the same with the K4 I wonder what would be the differance hmmmm
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Think you'd be better off comparing the 16 and the 14 for your argument.
K4 has nothing in common with the 14 aside from being driven by a piston engine.
He doesn't want the 16 perked, its probably his main ride :aok
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Some of last tours stats (forgive me if I do not recall ENY values)
109K4 10,424 kills with 1.56 K/D 20 ENY
F4U-1C 5,780 kills with 2.95 K/D Perked
N1K2 12,084 kills with 1.16 K/D 5(?) ENY
P51D 31,518 kills with K/D of 1.37 8 (?) ENY
Spitfire XIV 1,121 kills with K/D 1.37 Perked
Spitfire XVI 19,355 kills with K/D 1.11 5 ENY
Tempest 2,933 kills with K/D of 6 Perked
The below chart breaks down the percentage of the total number of aerial victories these planes had in relationship with each other based on last tours #s, 341K kills or so.
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs733.ash1/162760_490096267948_700532948_6137297_4248080_n.jpg)
So, there are three ways of looking at the issue, kills, performance, usage.
On kills alone, Pony D needs to be perked, not the 1c.
On performance, lets skip that for a second....
On usage, well if I recall correctly the F4U-1c was not perked when introduced, it was perked because it became "the" airplane. This is what I have heard, not sure. Afterall it is the same as a 1d with a 10 IIRC ENY, except the cannons. Should the planes that are used the most and responsible for the bulk of kills be perked or have their eny lowered?
So, back to performance. First assumption is that the planes in question are flown within their envelop against planes with similar characteristics. I hate to beat up the anti-brewster guys, but you get killed falling into the brewsters fight. P-51, K4, and Spit XIV and even the spit XVI (close stats) are similar to the K4 in straight line tests, but in turning the K4 falls short. (Using hammers website http://www.gonzoville.com/charts/index.php ) The Spit XIV has a no flap turn radius 70 feet tighter than a K4 (16 is 130 feet tighter). So, to most pilots out there, the bulk of the guys in the MA, the spits will dominate the K4, as they will tend to devolve into a turn fight. Now to the pony needs to be perked guys, the P-51D has performance numbers drastically lower than these other airplane except speed. Even there it falls short to the K4 and XIV at most altitudes.
Anyway, regardless of how you slice the stats, there is not one plane that dominates all flight envelops for most pilots.
As to the K4 being 20 ENY. Well, I am glad it is there at that level. It gives you a chance to fly a plane with LW performance even when ENY is stacked against you. Because the K4 is pretty much all I fly, the XIV does not concern me as much as another K4.
I would propose that the perk system wander around like eny does after every tour. Whichever airframes are responsible for the bulk of the kills, then their eny is altered. If there is a perk ride that sits unused like the XIV, then lower the ENY until it starts being used more. Perkies were meant to be spent. It is not like any of the perk rides except the jet and the rocket plane, are really that decisive to most pilots. :salute
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I can take a any Spit 8-16 up and land 10 kills w/o rearming a lot easier then doing the same thing on the K4. 30mm is great, but you acutally gotta land your rounds. With the hispanos I can just fire 5-10 rounds burst and down almost any fighter plane, at up to 600 yards easily. I can't do that w/ 30mm without wasting 10-15 rounds. Spit14 gets a lot easier in a turnfight, where the K4 demands a lot more work to be successful in the same scenario. I feel safe flying a spit, acutally more like godly. Knowing that I can take on just about any plane in the game w/o an issue. Where K4, if I run into the spit and it comes down to 80 knts 100 feet rolling, I might break a sweat if it's a good pilot flying the plane.
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K/D is not a great measure of a planes MA effectiveness and lethality. The K4 is easy to stay alive in flown timidly, but how do we know a lot of pilots aren't only getting 2-3 kills a sortie before landing? I'd be more interested in seeing 109K4 Kills/Sortie statistic compared to the field to see how lethal of an MA fighter it really is.
Not to mention, it does not take into account the strata of players that are flying the K4. I don't see too many newbs or even intermediate level players flying it. Same situation with the P38J.
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Well put. I always have more concern about seeing another K4 than a spit for that reason.
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He doesn't want the 16 perked, its probably his main ride :aok
Now you have insulted me :D
My main ride in fighter mode is the 14. I was just having a regular duel type dogfight in the DA with Nrshida and we concluded the k4 isnt at a huge disadvantage here either having much more forgiving stall characteristics.
Now I fully expect a pumped up chest thumper to come on and explain to me how it is but before anyone takes their ego for a walk the majority of people who play this game are not of the stature of Grizz etc. I flew the K4 all turney against the 14 and vice versa with Nrshida today in the DA and I don't reckon theIr is anything in it except the 14 is easier to handle at the limit.
Conclussion and here is the incendiary it should be much close to the 14 and even the 16 in eny :eek:
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K/D is not a great measure of a planes MA effectiveness and lethality. The K4 is easy to stay alive in flown timidly, but how do we know a lot of pilots aren't only getting 2-3 kills a sortie before landing? I'd be more interested in seeing 109K4 Kills/Sortie statistic compared to the field to see how lethal of an MA fighter it really is.
Not to mention, it does not take into account the strata of players that are flying the K4. I don't see too many newbs or even intermediate level players flying it. Same situation with the P38J.
I agree with Grizz on this. I feel the vast majority of kills (as Snailman has pointed out), are done by a few people. I'm going to be a shameless self promoter here and point to the fact that in the 'POTW 3d wing', accounts for almost 10% of all the k4 kills! and of that group, it really comes down too 4 pilots who flew the k4.
957 kills in a k4 were done by 4 guys in our squad...
same with 989 kills in a p51D....
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/scores/sqdkillstat.php?selectTour=LWTour131&player=Krupnski&kt=3970
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well that settles it Ardy you guys are now offically grounded from the K4 and 51 we will not be having you guys flying them, grounded to comence forth with..........hehe
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If you actually look at who is getting kills in K4s, it's a bit more than a dozen pilots. Otherwise, it would seem "the average pilot" take one up, dies once or twice, and, not being able to hit anything, never flies it again.
Why should the perk be lowered? You don't see them all over the arena. They are not so overwhelming as to change or disrupt gameplay when they show up.
"It has a big gun" does not seem to be justification. The only reason I can see for asking for the K4 eny to be lowered is "I keep getting killed by them". Same for the Brewster and people asking for the P-51 to be perked. If you're getting killed by them, it must be the plane, not you.
Sure, unperk the Spit XIV. Look what unperking the Ta152 did? Nothing.
wrongway
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well that settles it Ardy you guys are now offically grounded from the K4 and 51 we will not be having you guys flying them, grounded to comence forth with..........hehe
:rofl :rofl :rofl
So you would prefer us to start upping in ki84 and spit 16s.... lol
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If you use gonzo's page to compair the F4U-4, P51D, Spit14 and K4 you will see the F4U-4 makes the P51D look like a dog in MA combat performance terms. I understand perking the F4U-C after using it a bit last tour. Pray-n-Spray was imortalised by it in spades. Pull the trigger, wiggel the stick, kick the rudder and nothing escapes it's death shower.
So why has the F4U-4 and spit14 been perked but the K4 not? When looking at the results from gonzo's compairison alone they are almost clones.
One thought is the F4U-4 is so much easier to fly than the K4 and spit14 along with getting the flaps out at a higher initial speed. The F4U-4 has a similare graph to the K4 and spit14 in MA combat terms. If it's simply the single 30mm in the K4 keeping it unperked. Fly it for a week non-stop like a timid Hit-n-Run 51D and you will start landing 2 kills on average. Never turn fight in it just run through furballs at high speed and shoot from 200 or closer. Then run away or climb away on WEP.
The spit14 has the ease of spraying at an opponent the F4U-4 does so I can see perking for that. But the spit14 is harder to fly than the F4U-4 out of the box for newbies or less dedicated players. I would place the spit14's mastery in line with the K4 to become what a few players names in the game have elevated it to.
If the F4U-4 were unperked today I'm willing to bet the P51D's usage would drop off by half over night. If the spit14 were unperked today, a small handfull of vets would master it like with the K4 and create a new AH Urban legend about it's Uberness. I doubt spit9, 8 or 16 usage would be impacted.
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One thought is the F4U-4 is so much easier to fly than the K4 and spit14 along with getting the flaps out at a higher initial speed. The F4U-4 has a similare graph to the K4 and spit14 in MA combat terms. If it's simply the single 30mm in the K4 keeping it unperked. Fly it for a week non-stop like a timid Hit-n-Run 51D and you will start landing 2 kills on average. Never turn fight in it just run through furballs at high speed and shoot from 200 or closer. Then run away or climb away on WEP.
The big thing the the monster 4-hog, is that not only as you pointed out, it can climb and run with the best, it can TURN, and subsequently accelerate out of that turn fast. Not even the p51 with its combat flaps, can accelerate like the 4hog. So where the k4 may have equal climb and speed, the 4hog can out turn it with ease, making it a much superior dog fighter.
Not only is it easier to fly, its easier to get kills in. The 6 50s allow for much easier shots from longer range than the 1 30mm, with its low rate of fire and poor trajectory.
I still don't see why the spit 14 is perked... it may be a slightly better k4 in stats, and it does have hispanos, but I hear it has awful stall characteristics.
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If you actually look at who is getting kills in K4s, it's a bit more than a dozen pilots. Otherwise, it would seem "the average pilot" take one up, dies once or twice, and, not being able to hit anything, never flies it again.
wrongway
Is a good point.
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If you actually look at who is getting kills in K4s, it's a bit more than a dozen pilots. Otherwise, it would seem "the average pilot" take one up, dies once or twice, and, not being able to hit anything, never flies it again.
Why should the perk be lowered? You don't see them all over the arena. They are not so overwhelming as to change or disrupt gameplay when they show up.
"It has a big gun" does not seem to be justification. The only reason I can see for asking for the K4 eny to be lowered is "I keep getting killed by them". Same for the Brewster and people asking for the P-51 to be perked. If you're getting killed by them, it must be the plane, not you.
Sure, unperk the Spit XIV. Look what unperking the Ta152 did? Nothing.
wrongway
Is there some way to find this stat? I'm a little interested to see the names on this one.
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Is there some way to find this stat? I'm a little interested to see the names on this one.
Click on the plane name under "plane statistics". If you do it for any tour but the most recent one, you won't get only names & their kills, but also deaths & K/D.
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here you go madda.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/killsbyp.php?sortby=1&selectTour=LWTour130&pindex=1 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/killsbyp.php?sortby=1&selectTour=LWTour130&pindex=1)
The stats are a bit misleading because some one could kill a lot and die a lot more, and for k/d, someone could only fly 2 missions and not die, or fly very timidly.
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here you go madda.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/killsbyp.php?sortby=1&selectTour=LWTour130&pindex=1 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/killsbyp.php?sortby=1&selectTour=LWTour130&pindex=1)
The stats are a bit misleading because some one could kill a lot and die a lot more, and for k/d, someone could only fly 2 missions and not die, or fly very timidly.
You can sort by Kills or Deaths. Compare.
Also note the ratio of people with hundreds of kills versus those with one or two kills and one or two deaths.
Now, compare that to a "popular" plane like a Spit or Mustang and see how many get few kills versus lots of deaths.
The only thing missing from the stats is "sorties" which would help show how many times someone crashes and no one gets credit for the death.
wrongway
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Ardy ive grown to really enjoy that KI~84 I think one of the most underrated birds ingame.
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They are a good match for each other. I recently had some fun vs some of the KN guys who were upping Spit 14s (captured Luftwaffle versions of course :) ) we gyrated all over the sky and made a sloppy mess .
I'd say the hizookas give the spit some advantages when it comes to deflection shooting, you really have to set up your shots in the K4, but other than that the 14 and k4 really go hand in hand.....when it comes to killing each other.
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P51 stats.... WOOOOHOOO WTFG Rogent & BrknArow from PTOW!
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/killsbyp.php?sortby=1&selectTour=LWTour130&pindex=0 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/killsbyp.php?sortby=1&selectTour=LWTour130&pindex=0)
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That is a pretty cool page, thanks guys! Obviously I can see that I need a lot of work if I'm going to make it into the group of top guys. I think I did a bit better last camp, but obviously still I need quite a bit of work to get where I want to be.
Edited to add: Ink, I love the KI84, just love it! It's probably my best bird to fight in, I seem to kill a bit quicker and easier in it than I do the K4, it's just that the K4 is my favorite. I have noticed though that when I fly the Frank for a couple of weeks, my acm gets sloppy and lazy. I think it's from leaning on the plane a bit too much and not working the pilot stuff as much as you would in a tougher ride like the K4. It takes me a few days of 109 work to get my full mojo back. When I switch the other way though, man do I feel like superman for a while. That is one deadly plane.
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Here is an idea.
Vought built 297 F4U-4B 4-M3-20mm & 300 F4U-4C 4-20mm birds during WW2. HiTech can unperk the spit14 and replace it with the F4U-4B and F4U-4C with a perk of 20 to 80.
(Speed + Power + Turn/Flaps) * (4 - cannons) = Real game destabalisation.
Or perk the K4 because the spit14 is perked, they have almost the exact same performance under 25k. The small number of players who have created the Uber AH Urban legend with the K4 would just move to the G14 and never miss a beat.
Could you see the vTards flying 30 plane sweeps in F4U-4C's. Or one of the Hog expertin squads on TT? Or the muppets decide to fly hoard busting sweeps in them? On an aside I'm amased the vTards don't fly CV hoard missions with all CHogs and mass HO everything.....thank God.
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Could you see the vTards flying 30 plane sweeps in F4U-4C's. Or one of the Hog expertin squads on TT? Or the muppets decide to fly hoard busting sweeps in them? On an aside I'm amased the vTards don't fly CV hoard missions with all CHogs and mass HO everything.....thank God.
A. You need perks to fly perk planes.
B. You need to shoot down other planes and land to get the most perks.
C. You cannot do B. if you kill all the hangers first and auger doing so.
:rofl
wrongway
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Here is an idea.
Vought built 297 F4U-4B 4-M3-20mm & 300 F4U-4C 4-20mm birds during WW2. HiTech can unperk the spit14 and replace it with the F4U-4B and F4U-4C with a perk of 20 to 80.
(Speed + Power + Turn/Flaps) * (4 - cannons) = Real game destabalisation.
Or perk the K4 because the spit14 is perked, they have almost the exact same performance under 25k. The small number of players who have created the Uber AH Urban legend with the K4 would just move to the G14 and never miss a beat.
Could you see the vTards flying 30 plane sweeps in F4U-4C's. Or one of the Hog expertin squads on TT? Or the muppets decide to fly hoard busting sweeps in them? On an aside I'm amased the vTards don't fly CV hoard missions with all CHogs and mass HO everything.....thank God.
if you go that route, then perk the p51s too, because without the k4s, everyone will up in p51s, ho and run and never be chased down.
or...
unperk the spit14.
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I agree with Grizz on this. I feel the vast majority of kills (as Snailman has pointed out), are done by a few people. I'm going to be a shameless self promoter here and point to the fact that in the 'POTW 3d wing', accounts for almost 10% of all the k4 kills! and of that group, it really comes down too 4 pilots who flew the k4.
957 kills in a k4 were done by 4 guys in our squad...
same with 989 kills in a p51D....
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/scores/sqdkillstat.php?selectTour=LWTour131&player=Krupnski&kt=3970
It doesn't even count in the kills I had as Apollo in that........putting us at or over 10% :aok
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madda~so true it is a great hord fighter, definitly my favorite bird next to the Hurri2 of course, but the hurri just dont have the speed, the K4 is a whole nother beast, I can barely land hits in whatever im in, but damn that K4 is my nemesis, I love the handling, the climb, speed, but damn that 30 mill to hell lol allthough recently ive been only able to go offline so im getting as much practice with the offline mission K4's against the 51's (plus ive gleened everything I can from Grizz for targeting) I was always one to try and saddle an nme, now im going for the angles and find it easier to land hits and man does that thing hit, as you well know :-)
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Ink's hit on one of the main things that I think makes the K4 a difficult thing to kill with for the average player. With any plane that doesn't have tater-style rounds, generally speaking your best gun solution is a dead six shot or a low-deflection shot. With the taters, for me (I'd say I'm pretty average, maybe even a bit below average) I can't hit anything with them unless it's a close deflection shot to give me a bigger target.
Taters are the one style of gun in the game where crossing shots are actually easier than low deflection shots for the average person, and many don't realize that. Fewer put in the time to get proficient at it.
When I'm flying my K4, the best way for me to get kills is to get them to start scissoring. If I'm on your six in a K4, your best chance for survivability is to just fly straight and level away from me. I'll probably dump the entire belt without touching you.
Wiley.
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Ink's hit on one of the main things that I think makes the K4 a difficult thing to kill with for the average player. With any plane that doesn't have tater-style rounds, generally speaking your best gun solution is a dead six shot or a low-deflection shot. With the taters, for me (I'd say I'm pretty average, maybe even a bit below average) I can't hit anything with them unless it's a close deflection shot to give me a bigger target.
Taters are the one style of gun in the game where crossing shots are actually easier than low deflection shots for the average person, and many don't realize that. Fewer put in the time to get proficient at it.
When I'm flying my K4, the best way for me to get kills is to get them to start scissoring. If I'm on your six in a K4, your best chance for survivability is to just fly straight and level away from me. I'll probably dump the entire belt without touching you.
Wiley.
I aim under them sometimes...... :aok
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A. You need perks to fly perk planes.
B. You need to shoot down other planes and land to get the most perks.
C. You cannot do B. if you kill all the hangers first and auger doing so.
:rofl
wrongway
So thats why HiTech put this note in the splash screen: Remember to pillage before you burn.
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The K4 and Spit 14 have similar top of the range climb, speed and accelaration figures as well as similar turning circles and that they tend to have advantages over other planes which are accentuated by altitude. They both tend to excell in the vertical fight and have significant torque effects.
Appart form those 7 key attributes very little in common though :D
:neener: :lol :rofl :old:
Comparing statistics on paper creates a false sense of similarity. By this logic, the D Hog's are, near as makes no difference, the same exact cartoon airplanes as the 109 Gustav's.
We all know that this is not the case, in practice.
It's like "magazine racing." If you think that our discussions of relative performance differences between airplane X and airplane Y are harsh, visit one of the automotive forums. Lord help you if you find a Z06/ZR1 vs. 911 Turbo/GT2 thread.
On paper the pairings are, near as makes no difference, identical. In practice... completely different cars.
Consider mentoring a brand-spanking-new player in AH. Spit or 109. What are you going to recommend he roll for his first sortie?
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So everyone agrees unperk the 14 :x
Comparing statistics on paper creates a false sense of similarity. By this logic, the D Hog's are, near as makes no difference, the same exact cartoon airplanes as the 109 Gustav's.
We all know that this is not the case, in practice.
It's like "magazine racing." If you think that our discussions of relative performance differences between airplane X and airplane Y are harsh, visit one of the automotive forums. Lord help you if you find a Z06/ZR1 vs. 911 Turbo/GT2 thread.
On paper the pairings are, near as makes no difference, identical. In practice... completely different cars.
Consider a brand, spanking new player in AH. Spit or 109. What are you going to recommend he roll for his first sortie?
I just flew them against eachother in the da and one spins to the left and the other to the right.
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So everyone agrees unperk the 14 :x
Yes....but 16 has to take its place....
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So everyone agrees unperk the 14 :x
If it's a personal point of interest, I have no problem with this. I don't think the 14 is good enough to unbalance gameplay.
I just flew them against eachother in the da and one spins to the left and the other to the right.
And a semi-truck develops more horsepower and torque than a Ferrari F430.
Which one you gonna race in?
You're over-simplifying.
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I agree with Grizz on this. I feel the vast majority of kills (as Snailman has pointed out), are done by a few people. I'm going to be a shameless self promoter here and point to the fact that in the 'POTW 3d wing', accounts for almost 10% of all the k4 kills! and of that group, it really comes down too 4 pilots who flew the k4.
957 kills in a k4 were done by 4 guys in our squad...
same with 989 kills in a p51D....
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/scores/sqdkillstat.php?selectTour=LWTour131&player=Krupnski&kt=3970
Heh...I remember the tour that moot and grizz had 50% of the 152 kills, I had something stupid like 15% of the k4 kills. Of course more people fly both planes now. Wannabees!
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Yes....but 16 has to take its place....
They arn't in any way linked and I don't fly the 16 but leave it unperked as its a good plane for newbs to get some initial success in. I am no great stick but have no problem with 16's, Nikki, La7 or Brew's just the pilots if they are good. The game has to be successfull to survive and is already inaccesable enough.
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Heh...I remember the tour that moot and grizz had 50% of the 152 kills, I had something stupid like 15% of the k4 kills. Of course more people fly both planes now. Wannabees!
:lol
Was insane. Me and moot combined had over 1600 kills.
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You're over-simplifying.
Alright Brewster, Typhoon, Spit 14, 109 k4. Which match up of any 2 would be most closely matched.
Or perk the K4 because the spit14 is perked, they have almost the exact same performance under 25k.
Corresponds to my experience and the stats.
No they arn't identical.
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Alright Brewster, Typhoon, Spit 14, 109 k4. Which match up of any 2 would be most closely matched.
Brewster v. Brewster.
Typhoon v. Typhoon.
Spit 14 v. Spit 14.
109K4 v. 109K4.
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Brewster v. Brewster.
Typhoon v. Typhoon.
Spit 14 v. Spit 14.
109K4 v. 109K4.
Well played. :cheers:
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Heh...I remember the tour that moot and grizz had 50% of the 152 kills, I had something stupid like 15% of the k4 kills. Of course more people fly both planes now. Wannabees!
:lol
Was insane. Me and moot combined had over 1600 kills.
You two won't do a 5 round 2v2 match with Krupnski and I...... :devil
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spit 14 is hard to fly - i actually think that the k4 is easier. Sure the guns are harder on the k4 and I know i need a lot of work to make those rounds connect, but I think it has much more reliable stall characteristics - so reliable that you can (as demonstrated in various training films and to me whenever I go up against a good k4) build entire ACMs around them. The 14 is much more difficult to control in teh stall imo - you would think it would just roll to the right in a reliable fashion - but it does not - it seems to exit flight really easily and enter these nasty flat spins. . .
Now I am a newer player here - but the 16 is far better plan in terms of 99% of combat in here and if the 14 were unperked, you would get a few hadcore followers and the rest will stay with the 16 which is more stable, is goo enough for most combat situations, and is an overall better gun platform.
But those guns do make a big difference, if the k4 had a 20mm, it would also prbably be perked.
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Honestly though, one of my pilots in the 20th flew the spitfire 14 for his first time, he flew it somewhat like a mustang and killed 3 and rtb'd.
Not sure what this means. Are you saying he flew it fast, picked lower targets and then extended out of visual range before coming back? I think you could fly any plane with decent speed like that and land kills.
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Not sure what this means. Are you saying he flew it fast, picked lower targets and then extended out of visual range before coming back? I think you could fly any plane with decent speed like that and land kills.
Example Hoagi from Jokers Jokers
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But those guns do make a big difference, if the k4 had a 20mm, it would also prbably be perked.
You mean multiple 20mms. I usually fly the Yak-9U and its 20mm is supposed to be the best shooting 20mm in the game, but it only has one of them and it takes time to take your target out of the sky with it unless you get a pilot kill. In fact a lot of pilots are completely willing to give me a crossing shot gambling that I won't be able to hit them hard enough to matter. One 20mm won't make it perkable, especially with the 20mms available to German AC, more than one means no spinner cannon.
The 30mm is an advantage to the K4, not the only thing keeping it unperked. It has the engine power to stay out of the fight, wait for you to shift your attention, then dive in and hope for a hit, knowing it can climb away if it missed (thus the untouchable flying timidly comments). Its my opinion that any aircraft that can be flown such that its untouchable except by perked aircraft should have a low ENY, certainly not 20 ENY.
Also I support the idea (and I've mentioned this idea a few times before) that ENY should vary tour to tour based on popularity in the previous tour. Aircraft flown all the time should have a low ENY, those mostly ignored should have a high ENY. This will result in "bargains" that change each tour, resulting in seeing more varied aircraft overall, and make the game more interesting.
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Our experiment has limited implications because it was a duelling set up and this generally isn't the type of fights that I find in the MA (speaking for myself), where the perk cost is appropriate.
Yarbles has a lot more experience in the Spitfire Mark XIV than I. I agree with Ruah's comments about the ease of flying the K-4 at the stall. I found the Spitfire unpredictable and my corrections were all wrong because of the opposite torque.
I conversely also found the 30-mm easier to use than the Hispanos, especially when coupled with those stalling type of manoeuvres. One advantage is the feedback you get is considerably more apparent with the 30-mm. In other words you instantly see when you have placed your shot correctly and this reinforces the image of a good shot in your head. The Hispanos seemed a lot like machine guns and I think I was over leading them a bit (more used to Japanese cannons).
I don't know what the criteria for perking an aircraft is, but I felt the 109 was much easier to be effective in in this kind of duelling set up. Perhaps a direct comparison of these aircraft isn't appropriate since you probably have to fly them very differently in the MA.
Unclear to me after this experiment why you would want to restrict the use of the Mark XIV though :frown:
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My two cents...more people don't fly the 14 because there are unperked planes available that can fly at that alt...and perform well with less practice. The 51 and 47M come to mind and they are free. The 14 compresses like a wild man...I believe, and someone correct me if Im wrong, about 25Kts before the K4...both have the issue but the 14 isn't going to "dive away" from the K4...at alt, it might climb away from the K4 all things being equal above 24K (if memory serves).
I like Spits but Im not going to pay perks for the 14 when I can fly the 51 for for free. Im going to die at alt in either one of them because the K4 and I get along very very poorly, lol and I can't fly the 51 for poop so I choose to die for free.
Changeup
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Yarbles dont F with my perk farming in my k4 :old: I do agree spit14 shouldn't be perked though.
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Yarbles dont F with my perk farming in my k4 :old: I do agree spit14 shouldn't be perked though.
Yarbles is too busy posting naked photos of squadies in his rainbow colored hair salon.
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Yarbles is too busy posting naked photos of squadies in his rainbow colored hair salon.
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rolleyes:
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We can have a tank perked at one, why not a plane?
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spit 14 is hard to fly - i actually think that the k4 is easier.
Agreed.
- oldman
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Guess what? I have flown the 14 quite a bit too, and I'm also getting a lot of kills out of it. Does that mean the thing is perk worthy compared to other planes? Nope. I can do it in other planes too. I have also over 1000 kills in LW arena in a Hurricane I at K/D 4.32... it really should be perked! ;) Individual success is hardly a guide.
I'm also wondering about the frequent "just no one knows how to fly it" argument. Why on the world should the XIV magically attract all the incompetent pilots? Every tour, year after year? The real n00bs can't even fly that plane, yet the 2010 K/D of the 14 is only slightly higher than the Spit 16's (1.11) - and the latter one is THE plane of the masses and new players.
And let's not forget, perking is all about impact on arena gameplay.
If it became unperked then people would fly it, realize how to use it, then suddenly everyone beats the crap out of others while in spit14s... but i concede. i see your point
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Yarbles is too busy posting naked photos of squadies in his rainbow colored hair salon.
I promise you we only took your photo down to make room for a new mirror not because you are too old and ugly. Which of course you er ....................... arn't :o
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If it became unperked then people would fly it, realize how to use it, then suddenly everyone beats the crap out of others while in spit14s... but i concede. i see your point
I really don't think an unperked spit 14 will do anything a 16 does not in MA other then perhaps bing a great runner due to its fast sped and acceleration - but that can be said for many LW planes.
Ultimatly, having taken the 14 up a few tims, I just think that a lot of spit pilots who will fly it will find it very very nasty to fly and will still choise to take th 16 because its a better plane in 99% of combat situations - it stalls a lot better, it acclerates a bit less but still dos it very fast, it has arguably the best guns package other then the temp and 1C, great views, and communicates its stall limits well - other then the acceleration and the guns pakcage, outside of BnZ play, i don't see the 14 making a majo contribution. Th 1C and tempest are definatly perk worthy planes no doubt.
i think it should be unperked for a few tours to seeho it does. . .
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I think it should be unperked for a few tours to seeho it does. . .
Yep becase its also a plane that people currently very rarely use which is a waste of a resource. I would fly it even more if it wasn't perked but would probably fare better in a different spit. We don't however fly the planes that are necessarily the easiest and it seems like a better idea to unperk a plane that is difficult, unpopular, performs badly in K/D terms and has no significant advantages over some onther unperked planes unlike say the Tempest.
Actually to reflect its speed perhaps a perk of 1 or 2 might be ok but anymore really doesn't seem to be justified as the majority seem to feel it would not unbalance gameplay and is unde used though avalid extra choice in late war.
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I really don't think an unperked spit 14 will do anything a 16 does not in MA other then perhaps bing a great runner due to its fast sped and acceleration - but that can be said for many LW planes.
Ultimatly, having taken the 14 up a few tims, I just think that a lot of spit pilots who will fly it will find it very very nasty to fly and will still choise to take th 16 because its a better plane in 99% of combat situations - it stalls a lot better, it acclerates a bit less but still dos it very fast, it has arguably the best guns package other then the temp and 1C, great views, and communicates its stall limits well - other then the acceleration and the guns pakcage, outside of BnZ play, i don't see the 14 making a majo contribution. Th 1C and tempest are definatly perk worthy planes no doubt.
i think it should be unperked for a few tours to seeho it does. . .
The Spit14 with wep on, will out run a Spit16 by 20mph at all alts below 11k approx. After that due to gear shifts it stays average this till 20k. After that the Spit14 will stay faster than the fastest the Spit16 can go at any alt which is approx 410mph until 40k feet and can fly higher than a spit16 by reaching approx 43k feet (while going 390mph) while the spit16 cant go above 40k (at a max speed of approx 325mph).
On the other hand, a P51D can keep with the Spit14 until 25k feet but thats when the spit14 takes over speedwise and leaves the P51D in the dust. P51D vs Spit14 need not compare the climb rates at all.
Climbing wise the Spit16 and Spit14 stay near the same until 20k, then the Spit14 will outclimb the Spit16 all the way up. The only disadvantages a Spit14 has are slower turn rate (compared to other Spitfires, the damn thing will outturn alot of planes in the game still) and the nasty nasty stall (which by the way can be avoided with flaps most of the time).
Vs the 109K4, the Spit14 is less dangerous until very high alts. a 109K can catch it and climb with it, but the Spit14 can (iirc) outturn the 109K and also has more ammo capacity.
An F4U4 can keep with the Spit14 in most situations speed wise but even then the F4U4 cant climb with the Spit14 at all.
Vs the TEMPEST, the Spit14 can outclimb and outturn it. And over 22k the Spit14 rockets while the Tempest is left in the dust.
the only major late war plane that can severely outrun a Spit14 at altitude is the P47M/N and even with these planes the Spit14 outclimbs and outturns.
This plane deserves perks. Nough said.
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Ok i have skimmed threw this thread. I fly the k4 7 out of 10 sorties. Love the plane. I fly the spit 14 from time to time as well. I think the spit 14 should be free but really deserves a 5eny or maybe 10eny. At the alts most fly on this game it CAN'T out run a k4 but it CAN climb with it, has more amo and better guns. Can out turn it, holds E better, dives better and has longer legs and better views. The only people that have problems with it are those who try to fly it like it like it's a spit 8 or 16. Its an e fighter/vert NOT TnB. Now neither is easy for new guys to fly. But the k4 is defiantly harder to just get kills in. Let alone effectively fight in. Fly each plane for a week in the MA's and then say which you find easier to land kills in :salute
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Fly each plane for a week in the MA's and then say which you find easier to land kills in :salute
QFT.
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BAR,
True, the spit14 outturns a lot of planes, but a k-4 will outscissor it, has much less nasty stall habit and better flaps (even though it takes a long time to open them). The K-4 is the fastest propeller-driven aircraft in game between 8 and 27K. Their performance is really close though. In main arena the spits superior high-altitude performance is just worthless, unless youre going after bombers. But you dont wanna up a vulnerable perk-plane after bombers, do you? ;) I think the spit is a great ride, but dont need to be perked.
Btw its cool that a k-4 is ENY20. A great perk farmer, just like a ki-84, the B-stang or the spit9.
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Bar:
I have been in a fight at 27K or higher one time in 3 years...and it was down to 20K in 3 about turns where the 14 becomes essentially a bit better than average. The 14 shouldn't be perked because its perkiness value is never or very rarely utilized. I don't think a lot of guys are going to up a Spit 14 to chase bombers at 25K because of the perk cost...why when you can up a 47M or a K4...lets face it...you don't have to worry about turn rates when hunting buffs...they aint going anywhere.
So, if it's real performance values are in altitude envelopes that are very very rarely utilized, why perk it? No one will use it when other alternatives are available. Think of it this way: Something is only worth what someone will pay for it. People aren't paying for Spit 14's very often so it must not be worth it.
:salute
Changeup
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I been flying the spit 14 in the off line arena for the purpose of this discussion. While it has great speed and good visibility and only the P-51s have better views. I still have problems with the high speed stalls in right hand turns. It don't recover well in a flat spin and it is still frail like all spits and easy to damage. I find I can't drive to the speed I can in a P-51D (576 mph) I also find that the Tempest will not dive as fast as a Pony ether. It pull itself out of a dive automatically at a certain speed. Which makes me wonder how it can catch a Pony.
The 14 has a good gun package with a good ammo supply but it is a greasy bird upon landing like the F-4s are. I do what I do with the F-4 I turn off the engine as soon as I touch the runway. That gets rid of engine torque. White the ME109-K4 is a much harder plane to hit a target in it is by far the easier plane for me to fly and maneuver in and is way more forgiving than the 14. Also the 109-K4 will take much better damage than the 14. The k-4s motor runs a long time with an oil hit. As a perk plane I just don't see it in the 14. It is a ENY 5 plane at best in my view. I do not have a dog in this fight because I am not a Spit user I am a P-51 guy. As for over all Spitfires I like the 9 best of all them it is just fun to fly.
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Not sure of the K-4's durability, but it is very easy to tear one or both wings off of the 14 when at high speed or during high-g maneuvers. As a side note to this, I have ripped both wings off of a 14 and continued to fly it for about 2 minutes. It's kind of a slow barrel roll to the right, but the engine power will keep in the air for a while.
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K4 got mad compression though
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K4 owns, no competition.
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K4 got mad compression though
lol... one can cause to a k4 to compress in level flight... seriously
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Naw man, have you seen me doing a split S 3k above the enemy, w/ chop throttle, skidding my rudder, trimming my elevator trying to place myself for a snap shot and reverse to stay on their six? that's tuff =/, I can do it easily in spit, f4us, ki. Only K4, I have a hard time. That's where compression effect the performance.
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Naw man, have you seen me doing a split S 3k above the enemy, w/ chop throttle, skidding my rudder, trimming my elevator trying to place myself for a snap shot and reverse to stay on their six? that's tuff =/, I can do it easily in spit, f4us, ki. Only K4, I have a hard time. That's where compression effect the performance.
I would agree, the K4 is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more demanding than a spit in combat.
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Here's an alternative approach to the discussion I've been thinking about. After reading about ENY and the Perk System, plus talking with Hitech and Pyro I think I have a good understanding of what each one is intended to address. (Please feel free to correct either of these definitions)
1.) The Perk System- The Perk System is intended to keep specific, high performance aircraft usage (in the main arena's) close to historical percentages when the player population is evenly distributed across the three sides.
2.)The ENY System- The ENY System is intended to create a balanced playing field when the player population is NOT evenly distributed across the three sides.
So trying to compare one aircraft directly to another in terms of PERKS or ENY needs to address how the players would utilize each plane in both a balanced situation and an unbalanced situation.
For example, as I understand it (Old timers correct as necessary) when the C-Hog was introduced there was no perk system so it quickly became the dominate plane regardless of balanced sides or not. As some have described it, it was quickly a situation of, fly a C-Hog or expect to die quickly (this may be over stating it a bit).
As to the specific K-4 vs. Spit 14 merits, the preceding discussion is centered about specific traits or usage that go either for or against perking the Spit 14. I have not seen any forethought as to how the general player base might react to un-perking the Spit 14. In my opinion given its speed and climb abilities I could see it being used as a new tool for the hoard to attack reasonably close bases. It's bad enough when the hoard comes in NOE but at least you have the potential to see it launch early and climb before they get to the base. If the hoard can get to 10K in 2 minutes fly a sector and drop on the target (not giving defenders a chance to up and get alt) then the Spit 14 could theoretically be a big problem in the mains. Another reason I suspect the average AH pilot would use the Spit 14 over the K-4 is ammo. As I'm sure Snailman can point out (with a chart naturally), the vast majority of players are poor shots (relative to the top 10%). So the Spit would be the obvious choice for most over the K-4.
Then the last part of the discussion is why is the K-4 ENY so high. My theory is that looking at main arena usage, the K-4 is used predominately in either, stable fur-balls or for defense. In general, it is not used to steam-roll the low number side as an attacking fighter. And in my opinion that is because there's a small % of pilots how can actually shoot well enough with it to be truly effective. If someone really wanted to justify lowering the K-4 ENY they would have to show it's negative impact when the arena's are unbalanced numerically.
Well that turned out longer than expected! LOL <S>
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I would agree, the K4 is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more demanding than a spit in combat.
And there is the problem. There is no such thing as "a Spit". The 14 is a very different beast in terms of handling. It has some serious vices that make it a much more difficult ride (particularly at typical MA combat alts) than other variants.
In the MA combat environment, the 16 is a much more capable plane. The K4 has the taters, but is a much more stable gun platform than the 14. I'm sometimes baffled how some do completely ignore the several weak points of the 14 in their argumentation, falling back to "but I got X kills and Y K/D in it"
And still I'm wondering why of all planes only the perked 14 allegedly is flown only by pilots "not knowing how to use it." It's not that it doesn't happen with almost all other planes too. particularly the 16, which is known as "n00b" or "dweeb" ride, yet it's K/D is very close to the 14, which can't be flown by 2 weekers at all. And "it's a monster if a player really hows to handle it" - with that argument we would have to perk the K4 instantly.
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And there is the problem. There is no such thing as "a Spit". The 14 is a very different beast in terms of handling. It has some serious vices that make it a much more difficult ride (particularly at typical MA combat alts) than other variants.
In the MA combat environment, the 16 is a much more capable plane. The K4 has the taters, but is a much more stable gun platform than the 14. I'm sometimes baffled how some do completely ignore the several weak points of the 14 in their argumentation, falling back to "but I got X kills and Y K/D in it"
And still I'm wondering why of all planes only the perked 14 allegedly is flown only by pilots "not knowing how to use it." It's not that it doesn't happen with almost all other planes too. particularly the 16, which is known as "n00b" or "dweeb" ride, yet it's K/D is very close to the 14, which can't be flown by 2 weekers at all. And "it's a monster if a player really hows to handle it" - with that argument we would have to perk the K4 instantly.
I don't think very many people are arguing to keep the 14 perked. I think most have said they wouldn't mind seeing it unperked. I personally don't think there would be any difference in its frequency in the arenas. The 16 is just too easy and capable a ride for people not to choose it over the 14. There might be a few sorties in it, but then they'd go back to the 8s and 9s and 16s for the most part.
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In my opinion given its speed and climb abilities I could see it being used as a new tool for the hoard to attack reasonably close bases. It's bad enough when the hoard comes in NOE but at least you have the potential to see it launch early and climb before they get to the base. If the hoard can get to 10K in 2 minutes fly a sector and drop on the target (not giving defenders a chance to up and get alt) then the Spit 14 could theoretically be a big problem in the mains.
But really, isn't the only place the Spit 14 has a significant advantage over planes like the Spit 16 and Ki84 (both excellent climbers) at very high altitudes 20K-ish and up? In the scenerio you depict, the Spit 14 would be no more of a threat than the Spit 16 and Ki84 as time to get to 10K or so is a marginal almost insignificant difference, IMHO. I suppose if the horde were attacking a 15K base, however..... :noid
As I see it, my dollar minus 98 cents (from a person who doesn't often fly any Spitfires, and won't even try a K4, the Spit 14's advantage is as an excellent very high alt dogfighter. Buff hunter maybe, but you won't catch me attacking 17's, 24's or 26's with a plane that fragile, not when a Ta152, Pony D or M Jug is available for no perkies. Down low it is not to be feared any moreso than a Pony or Typhoon.
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There is no such thing as "a Spit". The 14 is a very different beast in terms of handling. It has some serious vices that make it a much more difficult ride (particularly at typical MA combat alts) than other variants.
So much so that it bears very little performance resemblance to any of the other spitfires.
- oldman (so...you can fly it without shame!)
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While flying the Spit 14 in the off line arena. I find I can not recover from a flat spin no mater what I do. All other Spitfires and all the German rides will. As will all US planes I tried. You can fly a P-51 like you stole it and it will stay together or recover from almost anything you do to it. I kill Bombers it it with ease. I can't do that in any Spit without being damaged or destroyed. Even if the Spit 14 was not a perk ride I would still take a Spit 16 P-51 or the 109-G2 G6 G14 or K-4 over it anytime.
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The Spit 14 is equal or slower at altitudes below 20K, to the Dora, P-51, Typh, and K4. and slower than the La7 below 8K.
I've never found the 14 to turn or handle as well as the 16 or any other SPit, which is really the advantage of a Spit. If a K4 or Pony dives away from a spit XIV, the Spit can't catch them. This is due to that the spit being speed limited in a dive because of that wing balooning issue that slows the plane and forces pull out in all SPit designs. for that reaason i'ts not a better BnZ plane than the other spits already available for no perks.
The only advantage of a Spit XIV over other spits is a higher top speed. But that speed isn't high enough to run down the planes that are already faster than a SpitXVI [pony, K4, Typh, Dora] So the advantage is not a very usable advantage.
I think this is why no one drive this bird, the perks aren't worth it, even though it's only 10 perks.
I'd vote for a no perk trial run.
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The Spit 14 is equal or slower at altitudes below 20K, to the Dora, P-51, Typh, and K4. and slower than the La7 below 8K.
I've never found the 14 to turn or handle as well as the 16 or any other SPit, which is really the advantage of a Spit. If a K4 or Pony dives away from a spit XIV, the Spit can't catch them. This is due to that the spit being speed limited in a dive because of that wing balooning issue that slows the plane and forces pull out in all SPit designs. for that reaason i'ts not a better BnZ plane than the other spits already available for no perks.
The only advantage of a Spit XIV over other spits is a higher top speed. But that speed isn't high enough to run down the planes that are already faster than a SpitXVI [pony, K4, Typh, Dora] So the advantage is not a very usable advantage.
I think this is why no one drive this bird, the perks aren't worth it, even though it's only 10 perks.
I'd vote for a no perk trial run.
+1...Im a Spit 9 guy myself and even with no perks, I will fly the 51D or 47M at alts. In fact, you can drop the 14 from the lineup as far as I'm concerned...its a witched plane.
Changeup
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It seems if the Horde did adopt the unperked Spit 14 they would have to improve their general skills to get anything like as much out of it as they might from the 16. The only place a realtive noob might get any advantage over the Spit 16 is slightly higher acceleration and eventaully top speed in point and squirt mode. The la7 would still be the better option in this regard.
Please unperk it or lower the perk as those few people who enjoy the challenge it represents can fly it more even if they don't have a 10;1 k/d ratio :pray
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The 14 is a very different beast in terms of handling. It has some serious vices that make it a much more difficult ride (particularly at typical MA combat alts) than other variants.
I'm sometimes baffled how some do completely ignore the several weak points of the 14 in their argumentation, falling back to "but I got X kills and Y K/D in it"
You clearly have an agenda/opinion, but you have to be careful not to pick only the facts that help support your opinion, and not those that hurt it. You're presenting the argument in your own favor.
The 262 is atrocious to fly. It's a total pig. Should it be unperked? No.
The Tempest is a terrible plane that requires a LOT of effort and practice to fight in (not run, to "fight" in). Only the best that really put in the effort can get the maximum out of this plane. Should it be unperked by this alone? No.
Simply stating the spit14 is a bad handling plane, thus should be unperked, is a false argument. In that case you've set a precedent that the BEST handling planes SHOULD be perked. Bye-bye all spits, zekes, hurricanes.
The spit14 was perked for a reason. At the time it was perked, there was no spit8/16. It earned that perk price. Now the question is: Why haven't the new spits, which are even better?
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And there is the problem. There is no such thing as "a Spit". The 14 is a very different beast in terms of handling. It has some serious vices that make it a much more difficult ride (particularly at typical MA combat alts) than other variants.
In the MA combat environment, the 16 is a much more capable plane. The K4 has the taters, but is a much more stable gun platform than the 14. I'm sometimes baffled how some do completely ignore the several weak points of the 14 in their argumentation, falling back to "but I got X kills and Y K/D in it"
And still I'm wondering why of all planes only the perked 14 allegedly is flown only by pilots "not knowing how to use it." It's not that it doesn't happen with almost all other planes too. particularly the 16, which is known as "n00b" or "dweeb" ride, yet it's K/D is very close to the 14, which can't be flown by 2 weekers at all. And "it's a monster if a player really hows to handle it" - with that argument we would have to perk the K4 instantly.
it flies like a mustang. pure and simple. If you fly a Spit14 like a P51 you can see some similarities and see the difference. Yet it out does a mustang in every way except in terms of high speeds. If you use a P51 at low alts often, then use the Spit14 at low alts often, you can see a similar style of flying. That and the Spit14 carries 2 hispanos which up the ante. In very simple terms its a juiced, shorter flying, mustang
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You clearly have an agenda/opinion, but you have to be careful not to pick only the facts that help support your opinion, and not those that hurt it. You're presenting the argument in your own favor.
The 262 is atrocious to fly. It's a total pig. Should it be unperked? No.
The Tempest is a terrible plane that requires a LOT of effort and practice to fight in (not run, to "fight" in). Only the best that really put in the effort can get the maximum out of this plane. Should it be unperked by this alone? No.
Simply stating the spit14 is a bad handling plane, thus should be unperked, is a false argument. In that case you've set a precedent that the BEST handling planes SHOULD be perked. Bye-bye all spits, zekes, hurricanes.
The spit14 was perked for a reason. At the time it was perked, there was no spit8/16. It earned that perk price. Now the question is: Why haven't the new spits, which are even better?
You are wrong on so many levels. The Me 262 is not "atrocious to fly". A pig in some ways maybe, but it has no serious handling issues like the Spit 14. And more important, it has a massive speed advantage over every & all enemy - a single, outstanding performance advantage that justifies perking all of it's own, offsetting all the difficulties there are. The Spit 14 has no such single huge advantage.
Similar goes for the Tempest - Stating that the Tempest is a "terrible" plane makes me laugh out lout. A rock stable gun platform, no nasty stalls, strong aiframe and supreme speed.
Simply stating the spit14 is a bad handling plane, thus should be unperked, is a false argument
Good thing I never used a single simple argument like that.
Why haven't the new spits, which are even better?
Because it's not necessary. There is no massive impact on gameplay
it flies like a mustang. pure and simple. If you fly a Spit14 like a P51 you can see some similarities and see the difference. Yet it out does a mustang in every way except in terms of high speeds. If you use a P51 at low alts often, then use the Spit14 at low alts often, you can see a similar style of flying. That and the Spit14 carries 2 hispanos which up the ante. In very simple terms its a juiced, shorter flying, mustang
The Spit 14 flies like a Mustang? You ain't serious. Yes, it has to be used more in the way of a Mustang than a Spit 16, but in that way it's a significantly more difficult plane to handle (high speed maneuverability, stall behaviour and stability as a gun platform).
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The Spit 14 flies like a Mustang? You ain't serious. Yes, it has to be used more in the way of a Mustang than a Spit 16, but in that way it's a significantly more difficult plane to handle (high speed maneuverability, stall behaviour and stability as a gun platform).
It was a simple way to sum it up. in the end, the Spit14 flies much more like my baby than other aircraft. and can be used very well in this fashion. Just dont stall it. Gun platform is different than the 51s but still very powerful. And the spit14 can do alot that the 51 cant
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Just dont stall it.
I think this is the small caveat that makes the division. I have found using a P-51D to stall fight in much more docile and predictable than the Spit14.
If it isn't as fast as the Mustang at typical Aces High fighting altitudes, the weapons package isn't any more devastating than a Spit16 and the stall characteristics are worse than average with no significant advantage in return, then why is its usage restricted with a perk cost?
I think anyone would struggle to give one concise reason based on the aircraft's performance / handling or unbalancing effect on the Main Arena.
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I think anyone would struggle to give one concise reason based on the aircraft's performance / handling or unbalancing effect on the Main Arena.
they can't imo, its not the fastest under 15k by a long shot, its quite a bit slower then the LA7, D9, and 51D below 10k where i think most combat takes place, it also does not acelerate as fast as th La 7 and is only 1/2 a second faster to 250 and considerably slower to 350 then the D9 - yah it acelerates faster then the 51D - but then again - most things do. Its not more dangerous then any of those three in terms of guns, in fact taking ammo into account, its pretty low in terms of killing power, it suffers from typical spit fragility espcially around the wings which is insta K/O. Its greatest asset is its climb rate, but climb is relational to stall - to really exploit the climb of any plane and fight in the vertical you have to have decent stall control (and more then and on/off flap system)- at least not one that puts you in whipping rotor induced flat spin that I can't seem to escape from for the life of me (I can, it takes 6k alt to do it if I am lucky, and I have to chop the throttle and wiggle the nose forward) hich means its one saving feature is also exposes its weakest aspect.
Overall, the 14 is not perk worthy. I can see some die hard spit pilots seeing it as the K4 of the spit class - the challange to that plane set and a challange to master - but even when they do master it, it will still performe as a great ENY 5 bird. And nothing like the other perked planes in terms of massive performance boost: the tempest for example is much much faster then the La 7 and Spit 14 at all alts except to the spit after 25k (with wep the spit 14 does go faster then the tmpst between 10 and 15 k), and again the spit 14 only has the climb rate as an advantage over the tempest.
I just don't see why its perked. But then again, I am a newer pilot so I may be missing something.
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As far as the 262 not being worth the perks, I found one great use for it even if I can't hit with the guns very well. I find if I fly past a horde low and some what slow who are trying to take a base. About half of the attacking plane will peel off and chase me. I stay just slow enough to give them the illusion that they can catch me. The Tempest work also but to a much lesser degree than the 262. I find the 262 not at all hard to fly but you need to plan your landings. The Spit 14 just don't draw a crowd like that.
I found another way to kill the spit 14 at low altitude in a pony the other day. I saw the pilot was turn very tight on the merge so I turned back into him dropped some flap and turned hard right just before the merge. He tried to follow me and stalled out and hit the ground. I did it again to the same guy later that day. I learn that reading this post and fooling with the 14 off line. I would not depend on this maneuver because the next guy may know not to do that in a 14 and I would not try it with a Tempest on you. I also find the Tempest a very easy plane to use in about all categories. I did find way to out run a Tempest in a P51-D at altitude for about a sector but will keep it to myself. They have fuel issues and don't chase you long most times. Of all the perked plane in the game the Spit 14 is the only one I can't see the reasons for the perks in my humble opinion.
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I'm thinking one reason for the success of the K4 is the quality of the pilots who actually master it. As has been said before, it's a difficult plane that requires a great deal of skill to master, but it also has very good speed and climb rates, which allow the pilot to dictate the terms of the engagement. Combine the K4's strengths with a very good pilot, and it's no wonder that the bird becomes a problem. Then again, the same good pilot in any ride would be dangerous...
As for the Spit 14, I think the reason it hasn't had as much attention is because 1) there are easier spit variants to fly that are just as effective, 2) it doesn't have the novelty of the tater gun and c) it doesn't do as well at the low alt that most MA engagements are fought at. From what I understand, there's no real advantage at flying the 14 unless you're at 12k or so, is that correct?
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more like 25 k
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As someone said the perk is historical in that the 14 has clear speed, climb and acceleration advantages over the 9 but with the 8 and 16 available it no longer justifies the perk as the 16 and 18 are better in most circumstances un perked spits.
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i concede :aok
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i concede :aok
:salute
I hope HTC will at least try a reduced perk or none for a tour or two and monitor how this effects usuage. The availability of the 14 might get some people to try something more challenging in comparison to the 16. The 51 will have dive, higher compression, better handling and specifically role rate to combat the 14 and if everyone and his dog ups a 14 HT can just put the perk back on and we will be able to see why its there.
As to the k4 like the 14 no newb is going to jump in and get immediate superior results, ENY 20 still seems high though given how effective it is at what it does. Squaddies have suggested other squaddies have gone soft flying the k4 which within its type of fight is easier than some to get kills in.o
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I agree about an ENY of 20 from the ME109K-4 because it is not a plane that is kind to a new player as are the Spits. I fly all the 109s pretty good now but I still can't hit a thing with the K-4s big gun. All 109s are much harder to become a good shot with at first.
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I agree that if the Spit XIV is unperked I'd doubt you would see a lot more of it, (except the first week or so). The only time I ever used them was to run down sets of bombers, when I have to get from the ground to their alt in a hurry. The K4 is great as an interceptor in this requard as well but the Mk108 is much harder to make crossing shots with, then a pair of hispanos for most. So for the first part, I vote unperk the Spit XIV. As far as the K4 and the 20eny, for the average player it is a 20 eny plane. Try to think back to the first couple of times you took one up, if you were like me and looked at the specs and thought what an animal this will be. You grab one and take it up to about 10-15k and think "wow this got up here fast this is great". Then you see your buddy 5k below you yelling for help with a Spit on his tail. You call out "I'm on him" and pull your nose over at the bandit, and line up for a dead 6 shot. Being new to the K4 or late 109's in general you didn't throttle back nearly enough. "Wow this thing is a rocket", you say to yourself as you come screaming down at the spit. You then attempt to move the controls to line up your shot and "UH OH", it ain't movin :O. You then fly past the spit at Mach1 and hit the nearest, bush, tree, or hillside, and to add insult to injury, gave the spit a proxy :furious. That was pretty close to my first K4 experience :lol, fortunately that was a long time ago :old:. You can't really rate an ENY on how efficient the best sticks for that model are with them, you have to rate them for average Joe in here. If you get good at a high ENY plane you should be able to reap the rewards, everybody here was new to every plane in here at one time. Some just chose the more difficult road, and learned it well :aok for those that went down the hard 109 road, I'm still recruiting :D
:salute
BigRat
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make it happen!
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I assume that this isn't about some abstract concept of fairness and I have been barking up the wrong tree with the K4. The argument is I suppose is that the K4 is not easy to master straight from the box and does not appear in such frequency as to unbalance the game. So yes its 20 eny for a newb but so also is the 14. The first flights I had in it were crashes from the nasty stall or ripping the fragile wings off pulling out of a dive. This was enough to put me off for a couple of years from a plane I had to spend then scarce perks on. Take the perks away and more people will try it and most will reject it for those reasons I did. My guess is unperk it and it will be like having a new plane for a week or two and then it will become slightly less of a hanger queen than it is now. It will give people who like the plane and the challenge it represents more chance to learn to fly around its inadequacies which is how most of us graduate from endlessly upping spit 16's, LA7's, Nikki's and Zero's etc I don't include the P51 in the newb list becase it takes a bit more skill than the others to get initial reults.
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I assume that this isn't about some abstract concept of fairness and I have been barking up the wrong tree with the K4. The argument is I suppose is that the K4 is not easy to master straight from the box and does not appear in such frequency as to unbalance the game. So yes its 20 eny for a newb but so also is the 14. The first flights I had in it were crashes from the nasty stall or ripping the fragile wings off pulling out of a dive. This was enough to put me off for a couple of years from a plane I had to spend then scarce perks on. Take the perks away and more people will try it and most will reject it for those reasons I did. My guess is unperk it and it will be like having a new plane for a week or two and then it will become slightly less of a hanger queen than it is now. It will give people who like the plane and the challenge it represents more chance to learn to fly around its inadequacies which is how most of us graduate from endlessly upping spit 16's, LA7's, Nikki's and Zero's etc I don't include the P51 in the newb list becase it takes a bit more skill than the others to get initial reults.
The 51 belongs in that list because the additional skill it requires is about none. Unless you try to perform ACM with drop tanks on...then I suppose you would be a giant stud for picking zekes.
Changeup
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The 51 belongs in that list because the additional skill it requires is about none. Unless you try to perform ACM with drop tanks on...then I suppose you would be a giant stud for picking zekes.
Changeup
I think people forget how a newb starts;
1) Charge around firing at everything with pure pursuit and getting about 1;25 KD from Ho's. Any plane will do for this though the LA7 is perhaps the best.
2) Flat turn fights where the Spit, Brew, Hurri 2 and Zeke especially do well but the P51 does not.
To use the 51 initially boom and zoom is the prefered tactic which requires gunnery, situation and e management skills. You can do better initially flat turning a Spit or Zeke or infact most other planes if this is your method.
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I see it differently but similar. Reverse 1 and 2 and then add to your last paragraph: After familiarizing yourself with the 51, the accepted tactic of the non-newb 51 driver is to attempt 3 turns as a show of their new-found turning skills and once they discover they are in danger of being eatin alive by a somewhat better twisty-turny plane with a twisty turny pile it at the helm the tactic shifts immediately to nose-down running to the next sector while screaming, "I'm EXTENDING!!!!" or "YOU DIDNT EXPECT ME TO TURN WITH YOUR Ki 61 or Yak DID YOU???" on 200.
Changeup
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If the spit 14 was unperked i'd fly it 100 times more, i love that pinocchio nosed bird.
...Think i bring it out from underneath the dust sheet once or twice a tour.
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I think people forget how a newb starts;
1) Charge around firing at everything with pure pursuit and getting about 1;25 KD from Ho's. Any plane will do for this though the LA7 is perhaps the best.
2) Flat turn fights where the Spit, Brew, Hurri 2 and Zeke especially do well but the P51 does not.
To use the 51 initially boom and zoom is the prefered tactic which requires gunnery, situation and e management skills. You can do better initially flat turning a Spit or Zeke or infact most other planes if this is your method.
51s are good all around planes with two top attributes...Speed and E retention. Those two attributes give the Pony a lot of survivablity, especially when BnZ-ing which is the method of choice for the majority of 51 pilie-its. Usually the only 51 I get killed by is the one I didn't see.
The question of whether the Pony's speed makes it Perk worthy is an interesting one. My first thought is no because it is used more defensively than offensively. But "ballance" and what that means is complicated question as to what is trying to be achieved with ENY and Perks.
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P-51 and K4 are not perk worthy and are fine as they are. But the 14 is also not perk worthy and should be made an ENY 5 plane for a few tours to see how it fares - if it clearly dominates, then we will hear about it and it can be perked again, but I very much doubt it.
I have been working on the 109 a fair bit this past month, I think i will stay in one for awhile yet. . .
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...Also I support the idea (and I've mentioned this idea a few times before) that ENY should vary tour to tour based on popularity in the previous tour. Aircraft flown all the time should have a low ENY, those mostly ignored should have a high ENY. This will result in "bargains" that change each tour, resulting in seeing more varied aircraft overall, and make the game more interesting.
I like this idea as it gives the bargain hunters a reason to up the "rare" MA aircraft.
<S>
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Just to be clear I acknowledge the 14 has some strengths but so does the K4 and like the K4 it takes time and patience to access what the 14 has to offer and use it effectively. The same could be said of the 262 and Tempest but once you have mastered them you would have rides likely to dominate a situation which is far less the case with the 14 and K4 and like the K4 the 14 is unliely to upset the balance of the arena.
There is a good reason why many sticks will pay 200 perks for a 262, 50 for a tempest but rarely as little as 10 for a 14. The reason is it is not percieved as worth it not offereing enough advantages over a 16 or 8 or a P51 which share many of its attributes as well as out performing it in many areas simultaneousy. The 8 and 16 match the 14 for acceleration and climb but handle far better and the 51 is much more stable and agile at low and high speeds. The 14 is just another combination of attributes but in no way obviously superior as a 5 ENY plane to the 51 and 16.
If I am in a spit 8 and see a 262 or Tempest it represents a threat especially in the case of the Tempest which in reality is less easy to deal with but easier to kill, A 14 or K9 are not of themselves alone a significant concern.
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If the spit 14 was unperked i'd fly it 100 times more, i love that pinocchio nosed bird.
Agree wholeheartedly.
I've flown the 14 a bit and I find it a complete beast to handle. I suppose like any really good plane, it takes a certain mastery to get the most from it.
Anyway, I sure would like to see it unperked for a while and see what happens. I'd certainly fly it more. As it is now, if I'm going to spend perks, I spend them on a more user friendly plane like the Hog-C or Hog-4.
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I've flown the 14 a bit and I find it a complete beast to handle. I suppose like any really good plane, it takes a certain mastery to get the most from it.
I don't think it is a really good plane I think it is fundamentally flawed and that is why the air frame was modified later. If it was really good I think it would desrve the Perk. The 9 was a stop gap rushed into production that worked the 14 is similar but in many ways is inferior to that which it is based on the 8. The 9 is an up engined 5 that gains allot and loses very little.
You might say then why bother to fly the 14 and I would say its a challenge and of historical interest but its not some uber perk worthy plane just a spit with an engine too big for the airframe.
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You keep harping on the K4 for what reason?
If this a thread to unperk the 14 or to perk the K4?
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i assumed it was to unperk the 14. The K4 is fine as it is for sure.
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You keep harping on the K4 for what reason?
If this a thread to unperk the 14 or to perk the K4?
I harp on aboput the K4 because I think the ENY on the K4 is too high at 20 and since the k4 is strong in the speed and climb stakes is too far appart in ENY game terms from the 14. These planes are contemporaries and are about equal though different in the game. The 14 seems to be perked because it is called a spit but is in reality sufficiently unlike the other spits to be treated as a special case. It is not a spit 8 with a bigger engine but all the other Spit 8 advantages. If it handles as sweetly as the other Spits but was quicker it should be perked but it doesn't.
K4 ENY 15, Spit 9 unperked ENY 10 would be my best guess.
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Oh my god, I can't resist posting.
The Spit 14 has always been at the bottom of the list for kills/perk every tour. It has little family resemblance to its little brother, the XVI, lacking its roll rate, its turn rate and radius, and its easy handling qualities.
But this is what you'll get when what is perked is left to subjective judgment, and not based on some kind of objective study of aircraft performance and characteristics. Even a flawed attempt at the latter would be more rational than what is in place today.
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so what do you think m8, do you think th 14 would make a good ENY 5 plane - or keep it perkd as it is.
Subjective expeeinces aside.
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Unperk it. Try 5 ENY, notice that the sky hasn't fallen, and then try 8 or 10.
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Yeah unperk it...its a hairdresser's plane anyways :)
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I harp on aboput the K4 because I think the ENY on the K4 is too high at 20 and since the k4 is strong in the speed and climb stakes is too far appart in ENY game terms from the 14. These planes are contemporaries and are about equal though different in the game. The 14 seems to be perked because it is called a spit but is in reality sufficiently unlike the other spits to be treated as a special case. It is not a spit 8 with a bigger engine but all the other Spit 8 advantages. If it handles as sweetly as the other Spits but was quicker it should be perked but it doesn't.
K4 ENY 15, Spit 9 unperked ENY 10 would be my best guess.
When making an ENY case, you should never compare a plane to another and justify that comparison for changing ENY. You should compare each plane in its own right to the entire plane set and its MA unbalancing factors, all things considered. So, look at all things entailing the K4 objectively and determine its appropriate eny. Then look at the Spit14 and determine its Eny. Do not say, "Since Spit14 is Eny5 and K4 is similar to Spit14, then k4 should be ___. That's not correct since the Spit14's eny value may not be correct.
All that being said, I have flown the spit14, evaluated it, and I think it should be Eny5 no perk. It is no better than the Spit16 and probably slightly worse all things considered. As for the K4, should probably be 15 Eny.
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As for the K4, should probably be 15 Eny.
For a long time G-14 and K-4 had the same ENY value of 20. I was very surprised when the G-14's ENY was increased to 25 instead the K-4's being lowered to 15.
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When making an ENY case, you should never compare a plane to another and justify that comparison for changing ENY. You should compare each plane in its own right to the entire plane set and its MA unbalancing factors, all things considered. So, look at all things entailing the K4 objectively and determine its appropriate eny. Then look at the Spit14 and determine its Eny. Do not say, "Since Spit14 is Eny5 and K4 is similar to Spit14, then k4 should be ___. That's not correct since the Spit14's eny value may not be correct.
All that being said, I have flown the spit14, evaluated it, and I think it should be Eny5 no perk. It is no better than the Spit16 and probably slightly worse all things considered. As for the K4, should probably be 15 Eny.
I agree on the former but disagree on the latter. You are a K4 experten. I have tried and tried and tried to fly that aircraft...to me, its an ENY 35. Not because of its true effectiveness, but because its allows me to stay alive as long as an ENY 35 a/c...which is not long. All of you K4 folks have spent the time, effort and probably done some homework outside of the game to understand how to fly that bird effectively and been willing to die a lot in the process. Its easy mode to you guys whereas the rest of us fly it and wonder HTF you guys do it. Lastly the tater...ohhhhh, the tater. Firing the weapon accurately on that platform makes the ENY good as-is. Flying it is one thing...shooting with it is something else entirely...hats off to all the K4 guys...seriously.... because for me it is for crap.
Changeup
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Flying it is one thing...shooting with it is something else entirelyChangeup
Shooting is the kicker in it for sure. All 109's are easy to fly.
And unperk the 14 :aok
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I harp on aboput the K4 because...
Then start a new thread. You're not achieving X by addressing Y. The two are unrelated in as far as your objective is concerned.
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I think all this harping on the K4, trying to nerf its convergence or make it perked is due to some people recently getting shot down by them....
Don't worry, at this rate, soon people will be pushing for perking the f4f wildcat....
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I agree on the former but disagree on the latter. You are a K4 experten. I have tried and tried and tried to fly that aircraft...to me, its an ENY 35. Not because of its true effectiveness, but because its allows me to stay alive as long as an ENY 35 a/c...which is not long. All of you K4 folks have spent the time, effort and probably done some homework outside of the game to understand how to fly that bird effectively and been willing to die a lot in the process. Its easy mode to you guys whereas the rest of us fly it and wonder HTF you guys do it. Lastly the tater...ohhhhh, the tater. Firing the weapon accurately on that platform makes the ENY good as-is. Flying it is one thing...shooting with it is something else entirely...hats off to all the K4 guys...seriously.... because for me it is for crap.
Changeup
Hehe. I love that K4, shes sweet and does most everything I ask of her, and it's fast enough to get me home when the cannons are gone. It's funny the way it does not work for you because it's the P51 that I suck in. Everyone is better in it than I. 2 week newbs are better in it than me. Conversly I have no problems killing em, but getting kills in them? Nope, not gunna happen.
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the XVI, lacking its roll rate
rolls better at slow speed better then most planes, at about 180mph it's better then spit16
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I think the 190A-5's ENY should be 30 and not 25 :noid
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I think the 190A-5's ENY should be 30 and not 25 :noid
O god, ENY fight! P47's should be 40perks :noid :bolt:
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O god, ENY fight! P47's should be 40perks :noid :bolt:
Only when JUGgler flies them! DOH!
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Only when JUGgler flies them! DOH!
Lol
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rolls better at slow speed better then most planes, at about 180mph it's better then spit16
Please test it with a stopwatch. The XIV does seem to roll exceptionally well close to stall speed, but at 200mph the XVI easily rolls faster. I would be surprised if the situation were reversed with only 20mph difference. And then, of course, you can't even compare the roll of the XIV and XVI at speeds greater than 250mph.
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Please test it with a stopwatch. The XIV does seem to roll exceptionally well close to stall speed, but at 200mph the XVI easily rolls faster. I would be surprised if the situation were reversed with only 20mph difference. And then, of course, you can't even compare the roll of the XIV and XVI at speeds greater than 250mph.
At lift off speed and slightly faster the 14 rolls faster(to the right) which the way the prop spins, the 16 rolls to the left(where its prop spins) slightly slower, I will to it with my phone when I get back
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When I tested them about 1.5 years ago, the XIV rolled 360 degrees at 200mph in 2.72 seconds (average of three trials, all to the right). The XVI completed a 360 degree roll to the left in 1.92 seconds (also an average of three trials).
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I say unperk spit 14 and give ENY 5
or
give spit 14 a level-up boost of +21 lbs/sq.in. to justify its perk price
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit14v109.html
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O god, ENY fight! P47's should be 40perks :noid :bolt:
if the Jug is 40 I demand the 190A-5 be 45 :noid
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if the Jug is 40 I demand the 190A-5 be 45 :noid
Lol, but you got CANNON! :lol :aok
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2 Mg151+2 BB guns =/= 8 50's :noid
ENY 45 for teh A-5
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Next thing you know they'll be perking the Brewster.
[Having thrown the bomb in the room, Muzzy runs away laughing like a mad supervillain :neener: ]
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The reason why it's perked is because it is a Twitfire. K4 is too difficult to fly to be perked. Twitfire on the other hand...
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The reason why it's perked is because it is a Twitfire. K4 is too difficult to fly to be perked. Twitfire on the other hand...
But thats the thing, try to fly the 14 like a 16 and you will be spinning to your death over and over - it will actually give the spit pilots a 'challanging' plane.
And outside of the tater, the K4 is a dream to fly imo. After 2 weeks in it and slamming the right rudder/left stick thing that throws the ground around in the most enjoyable way, I wish I could fly it with a 151 - so now its just getting the hang of shooting at targets that are under my nose. . .
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But thats the thing, try to fly the 14 like a 16 and you will be spinning to your death over and over - it will actually give the spit pilots a 'challanging' plane.
And outside of the tater, the K4 is a dream to fly imo. After 2 weeks in it and slamming the right rudder/left stick thing that throws the ground around in the most enjoyable way, I wish I could fly it with a 151 - so now its just getting the hang of shooting at targets that are under my nose. . .
Having taken a long time off from the game, the K4 is not a dream to fly. The controls lock up at high speed, and even begin to get heavy in level flight. But compared to some other high speed types its low speed handling is very good, if you can handle the torque. I spent a little time in the K4 yesterday and couldn't hit a thing unless my targets were hanging, whereas I had no trouble hopping in a P51 or P47 and blasting targets at 600 yards. That's after ~10 months away. When you fly an aircraft like the K4 day after day you forget what it's like when you don't have the muscle memory for it.
Your point about the 14 is spot on, of course. It is not like the other Spitfires. I don't think it would be crazy to unperk the 14 and put a small perk on the 16, because for main arena purposes, the 16 is the better aircraft.
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oh, I totally agree about the 30mm - I think its the real kicker for the plane. Its the reason i take a g2 (i made a thread and asked about g2 or g14 for 20mm stuff - and the g2 is, in my opinion, the better plane) if I am flying duo with my friend. But alone, which is how I usually fly because I can't commit to a squad yet (I move around a lot for work) even though I really want to, the k4 is better (more options). Outside of the 30mm and the real pita that it is, the plane can do things in the air that are ver satisfying when they work (which is why i have been dedicating all of my time to it) especially torque rolls and brds using the torque. but the flying characteristics are really perdictable. And thats the thing with the 109s - they have perdictable characteristics that are so reliable that the real experts build entire acms out of them (i am an aspireing noob). The spit 14 on the other hand is a totally uperdictable beast as far as i can tell and when I try torque play offline, the thing flat spins.
i am sure if it were unperked, people would use it as a bnzer which would be a shame, but at least we will see it and be able to have some fun trying to tame it. The k4 on the other hand just does not have the ammo to make a good bnzer - but its so fun to fly it at the edge. . . and is definatly not a perk-worthy plane when placd next to the tempest. . .which is a pure killer and really defines what a perked prop plane is imo.
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The question is whether the 14 is such an unstoppable beast that un-perking it would unbalance the game somehow. I think it's not like the Tempest or the rocket birds, which are total pains to track down. It's more along the lines of the C-hog, which is a pain, but not really unstoppable (unless Rud3boi is in it).
Plus, I don't think everyone is going to try and fly the 14 if it gets unperked. The benefits just aren't worth it.
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When making an ENY case, you should never compare a plane to another and justify that comparison for changing ENY. You should compare each plane in its own right to the entire plane set and its MA unbalancing factors, all things considered. So, look at all things entailing the K4 objectively and determine its appropriate eny. Then look at the Spit14 and determine its Eny. Do not say, "Since Spit14 is Eny5 and K4 is similar to Spit14, then k4 should be ___. That's not correct since the Spit14's eny value may not be correct.
All that being said, I have flown the spit14, evaluated it, and I think it should be Eny5 no perk. It is no better than the Spit16 and probably slightly worse all things considered. As for the K4, should probably be 15 Eny.
Agreed but I don't feel qualified to judge one plane against the whole plane set. It seems strange if one plane is about as able as another but one is perked and the other is ENY 20 but it is not conclussive I agree that one or both have the wrong eny/perk atached.
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Then start a new thread. You're not achieving X by addressing Y. The two are unrelated in as far as your objective is concerned.
My objective is either to have the two planes in question converge around ENY 10 or understand why there is so much difference. Ok I am only one player and may not understand what this is about or how it works but the purpose of this forumn is to ask these questions among other things.
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The reason why it's perked is because it is a Twitfire. K4 is too difficult to fly to be perked. Twitfire on the other hand...
If the 14 was basically an 8 withe better straight line speed then an ENY of 5 and a perk would be in order. I think even the 8 is in many ways a better all round plane and that has ENY 10. The 14 loses too much in terms of low speed stability and turn to make it clearly any better than the 16 of the 18. It does not handle like a spit in a predictable manner.