Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: LThunderpocket on March 28, 2011, 03:14:09 AM

Title: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: LThunderpocket on March 28, 2011, 03:14:09 AM
so i lift off a 163 to get strat bombers..etc..i do .speed 200 then alt X (my autoclimb setting).it imedialty goes into a nose dive 1k off the deck.i crash of course.but at the time my true speed was between 250 and 260.why would it just nose over like that?
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: MachFly on March 28, 2011, 03:16:08 AM
You either made a typo or misread your speed.
In any case you should not be using such an autopilot this close to the ground.
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: coombz on March 28, 2011, 03:16:14 AM
(http://www.tribalwar.com/forums/images/smilies/picard.gif)
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: BrownBaron on March 28, 2011, 03:19:17 AM
Given some of your previous encounters, I'm not sure you are great at accurately judging your speed.
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: LThunderpocket on March 28, 2011, 03:30:12 AM
Given some of your previous encounters, I'm not sure you are great at accurately judging your speed.

no no.this time i had the e6b open!the same thing has happend before in a b29.but i was high enough to get out of it
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: MachFly on March 28, 2011, 03:40:20 AM
You said your true air speed showed 250-260, your autopilot sets indicated air speed. So as I said above, seems like you misread your speed.
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: 100Coogn on March 28, 2011, 03:51:44 AM
Learned the hard way too.  Grab some alt. before you hit the auto-climb.  At least it gives you a little time to pull up.

Coogan
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: Chalenge on March 28, 2011, 04:28:17 AM
If you try to use the command ".speed 200" while you are in auto takeoff and still seeing the green text... the speed command will not take. All you have to do is turn off the auto takeoff first and then it will work.
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: Ack-Ack on March 28, 2011, 04:52:56 AM
You either made a typo or misread your speed.
In any case you should not be using such an autopilot this close to the ground.

It's a bug that's been around for a very long time but I have no idea how to reproduce it and it is very random.  You'll be on auto-climb and then all of a sudden you'll do a sharp nose dive and then the plane pulls up in a zoom climb to bleed energy back to 180mph IAS where it then settles back down into a climb.  Auto-pilot does not turn off while this occurs and stays on throughout the entire episode.

I haven't been able to figure out the cause but I know from extensive testing of my controllers that those aren't the cause and also that auto-pilot does not turn off while it happens also points away from it being the controllers.

ack-ack
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: Debrody on March 28, 2011, 05:03:55 AM
Well, first of all, at 200mph, the 163 only barely can fly this slow (when its heavy, usually at takeoff...).  That rocket engine performs the best at around 350mph, so i dont know what did you want at 200... Possibly it was one of your first 163 takeoffs, right?
Second, i guess your true speed was 250 when you hit the ground, right?
Third, .speed adjusts indicated air speed, not true airspeed.

Btw, i had the same experience when was trying to up a 262  totally drunk... autoclimb at 200mph, then alt tab to put on some music   :D
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: LCADolby on March 28, 2011, 05:06:37 AM
Begs the question, "Why did you not over ride the PC as soon as the nose dipped?"

At 1k and at 250-260 mph you must have had a good few seconds to recover and climb manually.
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: mtnman on March 28, 2011, 05:06:47 AM
It's not a bug.  

AH does not have an "auto-climb" command.  Instead, it has an "auto-speed" command, which is often used as an auto-climb..  

When you activate it, the plane does whatever it needs to do in order to achieve that speed.  In most planes, the default auto-speed is fairly slow, so engaging it right after take-off causes the nose to come up.  In other planes though, the default auto-speed is fairly high, which will cause the plane to drop its nose if it's activated too soon after take-off.

It's often adjusted to a higher or lower speed manually, and in bombers (for example) setting it slightly above your level speed will result in a slightly increased, maintained, dive speed.  This is useful for long descents, or for defending against fighters because your increased speed will make it more difficult for them to make sustained attacks without falling behind.  Set it for 290-300 mph in a B17, for example, and then get into the tail gun.

Here's a link to the trainers site, which has a one page quick reference of key strokes.

http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: LThunderpocket on March 28, 2011, 05:10:50 AM
You said your true air speed showed 250-260, your autopilot sets indicated air speed. So as I said above, seems like you misread your speed.

indicated is what i ment.the white bar was at 250.my true was 290 somthing.i got the 2 mixed up in prev post
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: Chalenge on March 28, 2011, 05:43:56 AM
I want to see the film.  :aok
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: VonMessa on March 28, 2011, 05:49:09 AM
I want to see the film.  :aok

He hasn't figured out how to use it, yet.

Like the aircraft.
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: MachFly on March 28, 2011, 05:54:10 AM
It's a bug that's been around for a very long time but I have no idea how to reproduce it and it is very random.  You'll be on auto-climb and then all of a sudden you'll do a sharp nose dive and then the plane pulls up in a zoom climb to bleed energy back to 180mph IAS where it then settles back down into a climb.  Auto-pilot does not turn off while this occurs and stays on throughout the entire episode.

I haven't been able to figure out the cause but I know from extensive testing of my controllers that those aren't the cause and also that auto-pilot does not turn off while it happens also points away from it being the controllers.

ack-ack

I think I know what your talking about, it happened to me ones in five years, no idea how to reproduce it. But unless your at 5ft AGL the bug will not kill you.
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: WWhiskey on March 28, 2011, 05:57:28 AM
Maybe you  should try shift X instead of alt X until you get some alt, say 10k  if your not willing to let it run up to speed before walking away!
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: MachFly on March 28, 2011, 05:58:49 AM
Maybe you  should try shift X instead of alt X until you get some alt, say 10k  if your not willing to let it run up to speed before walking away!

He might stall out and crash.
I recommend he keeps it on manual. Or just use autotake off and not touch anything until 5k.
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: DREDIOCK on March 28, 2011, 06:27:33 AM
so i lift off a 163 to get strat bombers..etc..i do .speed 200 then alt X (my autoclimb setting).it imedialty goes into a nose dive 1k off the deck.i crash of course.but at the time my true speed was between 250 and 260.why would it just nose over like that?

I've been here almost 10 years and I still make that mistake from time to time.
The problem was you werent going fast enough for the command you were trying to do.

It will also do the same thing in bombers and a 262 if your not already going fast enough.
Best things to do.
If your taking off, either leave it on auto take off  untill you get alt.
Or once you know you have cleared the trees. Go level and hold it there till you have reached an acceptable speed.

Anything less will have you right back here in the forums complaining
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: meou01 on March 28, 2011, 06:36:38 AM
what makes you think they won't complain anyway?
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: gyrene81 on March 28, 2011, 06:39:39 AM
so i lift off a 163 to get strat bombers..etc..i do .speed 200 then alt X (my autoclimb setting).it imedialty goes into a nose dive 1k off the deck.i crash of course.but at the time my true speed was between 250 and 260.why would it just nose over like that?
:lol   surprised krusty didn't notice it first...you're sequence was off...you must be at or above the default auto-speed setting for the aircraft before you hit alt+x then enter your dot command after it has nosed up...and don't enter a dot speed that is faster than the default unless you have room for the plane to recover from the dive it's going to do in order to achieve the speed you entered.

i've made that mistake too many times myself...the dot command will not override the default speed until you are actually in the auto-speed mode, and if you enter the auto-speed mode slower than the default setting, it will nose down until you reach that default speed.
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: Noir on March 28, 2011, 06:44:21 AM
if you enter the auto-speed mode slower than the default setting, it will nose down until you reach that default speed.

that  :salute
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: lulu on March 28, 2011, 07:59:42 AM
Submarine Plane - troll model
                                               brave-hart, are you ready to take-off?

                                                                                                     ****                    controlo tower
                                                                                                     *    *
                                                                                                     *    *****
                                                                                                     *            *
                                                                                                     *            *
                                                                                                     *            *
                                                                                                     *            *
                                                                                        :airplane:

                                                                                                   pretty sure, control tower




                                                                                              go !

                                                                                                     ****                    controlo tower
                                                                                                     *    *
                                                                                                     *    *****
                                                                                                     *            *
                                                                                                     *            *
                                                                                                     *            *
                                                                                                     *            *
                                                                  ---------- -----------
                                                                /
                                                              /
                                                          \       /       ro ... g..err!                      
                                                         -  eek    -
                                                          /     \                                  
                                          BOom!
                                                                          
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: VonMessa on March 28, 2011, 08:38:15 AM
Submarine Plane - troll model
                                               brave-hart, are you ready to take-off?

                                                                                                     ****                    controlo tower
                                                                                                     *    *
                                                                                                     *    *****
                                                                                                     *            *
                                                                                                     *            *
                                                                                                     *            *
                                                                                                     *            *
                                                                                        :airplane:

                                                                                                   pretty sure, control tower




                                                                                              go !

                                                                                                     ****                    controlo tower
                                                                                                     *    *
                                                                                                     *    *****
                                                                                                     *            *
                                                                                                     *            *
                                                                                                     *            *
                                                                                                     *            *
                                                                  ---------- -----------
                                                                /
                                                              /
                                                          \       /       ro ... g..err!                      
                                                         -  eek    -
                                                          /     \                                  
                                          BOom!
                                                                          

Did your parents have any children that lived?
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: lulu on March 28, 2011, 08:41:55 AM
Or do I came from the star?



Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: ImADot on March 28, 2011, 08:45:13 AM
So mtnman answered the question perfectly.  Now the new question is:  "How can we see the default speed setting before engaging auto-speed"?
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: hitech on March 28, 2011, 09:24:49 AM
My guess, a typo with the .speed command. Would do all the symptoms he is stating and he would not know he typod the command.

HiTech
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: Yeager on March 28, 2011, 09:38:38 AM
I get the impression he is in such an intense whine mode that he is just begging for any new perceived problem so that he can come here and bleed all over us, proving what an astute observer and knower of the truth he is.
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: kilz on March 28, 2011, 09:40:48 AM
yall give the guy a break. all he is doing is looking for answers.
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: Lusche on March 28, 2011, 09:42:02 AM
yall give the guy a break. all he is doing is looking for answers.

He is not. Look at all his threads over the last few days.
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: SlapShot on March 28, 2011, 11:38:20 AM
yall give the guy a break. all he is doing is looking for answers.

No he is not ... he is looking for anything that he may think is out of place and then coming here to stamp his feet about it. If he is looking for answers, his delivery stinks.

This is the type of customer that I would consider paying $15/month to not play the game.
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: Ack-Ack on March 28, 2011, 12:26:33 PM
I think I know what your talking about, it happened to me ones in five years, no idea how to reproduce it. But unless your at 5ft AGL the bug will not kill you.

No, it might not kill you unless you're low but it is a pain in the ass.

ack-ack
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: Dominare on March 28, 2011, 12:27:29 PM
I would consider paying $15/month to not play the game.
Talk to Hitech about that, I bet he would be ok with that.

Anyhow, easiest way to take off a 262 in my experience is let autopilot get you above treeline, then hit level autopilot. Get 250+ mph then hit climb autopilot and if the nose dips at all cancel climb autopilot and use level autopilot for abit longer. If you dont know you're starting to nose over, open those eyes and look at the gauge for your pitch attitude. I use this because for some reason if I leave on autotakeoff when it transitions to autoclimb in the 262 it does this teeter totter crap where it noses down to gain speed, then noses high to lose speed (it doesnt stop till I level it out.) So I work around that and it works better imo.
As for taking off in the 163 just let it autoclimb, cuz the dang thing will go nearly straight up... if you want to conserve fuel, throttle back, or just dont fly the thing.
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: Soulyss on March 28, 2011, 12:41:44 PM
My guess is that HT is correct, although with out film we won't be able to provide a definite answer.  I just went into the TA, took a Me163 with 100% fuel, lifted off around 150mph or so, hit auto level and typed in ".speed 200" let the indicated airspeed build up to 250mph and then hit "alt+x" and the plane nosed up into a climb till it hit 200mph.
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: W7LPNRICK on March 28, 2011, 01:02:50 PM
In a 163 always do level flight auto pilot until >400 mhp then hit auto climb, no need to change .speed settings.  :ahand
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: Vinkman on March 28, 2011, 01:12:48 PM
so i lift off a 163 to get strat bombers..etc..i do .speed 200 then alt X (my autoclimb setting).it imedialty goes into a nose dive 1k off the deck.i crash of course.but at the time my true speed was between 250 and 260.why would it just nose over like that?

The Max climb rate command (alt X) Will dive a plane, or nose it up to get to optimum air speed for MAx sustained Climb rate. If you are slower than that Speed when you engage, then the auto-pilot will dive the plane. It does not take into account where the ground is. The routine seems generically written to apply to all planes. 262s for example will go through several series of dives and climbs until the plane stablizes into sustained climb. The amplitude of the excursions of Dive or Climb is a function of how far off optimum you were when you engaged, and the plane itself. The factor in the plane that seems to make the biggest difference in this behavior is how fast the plane builds speed in a dive. 262 and 163 gain speed very rapidly so they over shoot the optimum speed before the Auto-pilot can pull up. Then when it pulls up it has to pull significantly past the optimium climb angle to slow the plane back down.  This creates a lot of oscilations about the optimum climb angle-speed, with the most severe at the initiation.

Know your plane's speed and climb rate for optimum climb and try to attain it before you engage Alt-X   :salute
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: gyrene81 on March 28, 2011, 01:22:13 PM
My guess is that HT is correct, although with out film we won't be able to provide a definite answer.  I just went into the TA, took a Me163 with 100% fuel, lifted off around 150mph or so, hit auto level and typed in ".speed 200" let the indicated airspeed build up to 250mph and then hit "alt+x" and the plane nosed up into a climb till it hit 200mph.
must have been in an update that i didn't notice or something...when i first got here and was learning all this stuff i tried using that sequence and it never worked, didn't matter how many times i typed in the dot command.

guess i'll have to try that way again...a much better way to do it if you don't fat finger it.
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: kvuo75 on March 28, 2011, 03:01:57 PM
must have been in an update that i didn't notice or something...when i first got here and was learning all this stuff i tried using that sequence and it never worked, didn't matter how many times i typed in the dot command.

guess i'll have to try that way again...a much better way to do it if you don't fat finger it.

don't type it in while auto-takeoff is on.

IIRC, it ignores .speed commands while the auto-takeoff is enabled.


Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: ImADot on March 28, 2011, 03:21:59 PM
Please point me to where "auto climb" is referenced.  I'm only aware of "auto speed".  If you're going slower than the "auto speed setting", you nose down and dive to get up to that speed.  If you're going faster than the "auto speed setting", you nose up and climb to get to that speed.  In both instances, your plane will maintain whatever climb/descent rate needed to maintain that speed.

Common sense...yes?
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: Dominare on March 28, 2011, 03:29:47 PM
autoclimb = the point where your thrust and lift is greater than your drag and weight, enough to push/pull your plane at a designated speed (set by game defaults) maintaining forward horizontal movement and upward vertical movement  :D
Its the red dot on the autopilot indicator.
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: Beefcake on March 28, 2011, 03:33:15 PM
autoclimb = the point where your thrust and lift is greater than your drag and weight, enough to push/pull your plane at a designated speed (set by game defaults) maintaining forward horizontal movement and upward vertical movement  :D
Its the red dot on the autopilot indicator.

That's autospeed, the game has no auto pilot called autoclimb.
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: Dominare on March 28, 2011, 03:35:47 PM
That's autospeed, the game has no auto pilot called autoclimb.
Im not gonna argue semantics, but its the same thing you hit the button and your plane goes up automatically
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: Crash Orange on March 28, 2011, 03:53:48 PM
Im not gonna argue semantics, but its the same thing you hit the button and your plane goes up automatically

It's not semantics. The plane doesn't go up automatically. It goes to the selected speed automatically which may make it go up or down. Usually it will go up by default, but not always.

Carrier takeoffs, especially in a heavy F4U, are another situation where you'll crash very quickly if you hit alt-x too soon after takeoff.
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: kvuo75 on March 28, 2011, 04:06:42 PM
Im not gonna argue semantics, but its the same thing you hit the button and your plane goes up automatically

turn off your engine and watch what it does.
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: MaSonZ on March 28, 2011, 04:07:47 PM
so....if he hates the game so much, and gonna cancel his subscription....why is he playing still?
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: ImADot on March 28, 2011, 04:11:04 PM
Im not gonna argue semantics, but its the same thing you hit the button and your plane goes up automatically

Get yourself in a steady, level flight at 100-120 mph in almost any plane.  Hit your "auto climb" button and come back here and tell me what it does.
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: Tupac on March 28, 2011, 06:24:07 PM
I've lost as many (if not more) 262s hitting alt+x right after rotation than I've lost in combat.

I'm a slow learner.
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: killb8 on March 29, 2011, 09:54:19 PM
(With my best Sean Connery voice) We are to evaluate the readiness of the autoclimb ...... Make revolutions for 200 knots and engage the alt/x.
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: WWhiskey on March 29, 2011, 09:59:49 PM
(With my best Sean Connery voice) We are to evaluate the readiness of the autoclimb ...... Make revolutions for 200 knots and engage the alt/x.
I. I captain.     LOL
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: ImADot on March 29, 2011, 10:02:22 PM
I. I captain.     LOL

You stuttering?  :neener:

Aye, kept'n.
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: VonMessa on March 30, 2011, 06:15:20 AM
I've lost as many (if not more) 262s hitting alt+x right after rotation than I've lost in combat.

I'm a slow learner.

Well, if that is the case, please stay away from regional airports near me when you are ready to solo...
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: W7LPNRICK on April 02, 2011, 12:30:11 AM
At times I use .speed 350 to dive my Lancs away from CV flak after dropping the bombs. It works without peeling off your wings.  :old:
  :D
Title: Re: autoclimb is the new dive?
Post by: MORAY37 on April 02, 2011, 01:43:27 PM
Talk to Hitech about that, I bet he would be ok with that.

Anyhow, easiest way to take off a 262 in my experience is let autopilot get you above treeline, then hit level autopilot. Get 250+ mph then hit climb autopilot and if the nose dips at all cancel climb autopilot and use level autopilot for abit longer. If you dont know you're starting to nose over, open those eyes and look at the gauge for your pitch attitude. I use this because for some reason if I leave on autotakeoff when it transitions to autoclimb in the 262 it does this teeter totter crap where it noses down to gain speed, then noses high to lose speed (it doesnt stop till I level it out.) So I work around that and it works better imo.
As for taking off in the 163 just let it autoclimb, cuz the dang thing will go nearly straight up... if you want to conserve fuel, throttle back, or just dont fly the thing.

Wait, Auto-WHAT?

Turn of all things auto.  Play the game.

262 takeoff, any obstruction or airfield....NO AUTOPILOT!... Up on runway, hold brakes fully on during engine spool-up.... release brakes @ 8500 RPM.  Allow jet to gather momentum.  It will do what I call "the 262 hop" about 3/4ths the way down the runway.  It will rotate into the air for a second, then settle back down on the runway.  Allow it to do so, or keep the nose on the ground with slight forward pressure. Take the last couple hundred feet of runway, then lift the nose up.  Rotation is generally at ~190 IAS.  Fold the gear as soon as you lift.  You can climb out to ~900-1000 AGL, or I prefer to level at 250 and build up airspeed to ~400IAS, and then climbout at 3K/min.


On the 163... you will love your plane a lot more, if you take off, level out at treetop height, and get 400 IAS built up.  Pull the nose into a GENTLE climb of around 30 degrees nose high, and it will accelerate all the way through the climbout phase, and save you more precious fuel.  I see so many people pull it straight up off the runway... you're wasting fuel (and sortie time) with a climb at 200 IAS straight up.

You can level off at 30K, with around 250lbs of fuel left, good for ~13 minutes at minimum throttle and 500 IAS.