Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Noir on April 27, 2011, 03:00:25 PM
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Perk the spit16....1.00 perk
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:aok
+1
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why perk it if its only gonna be 1 perk....
and it isnt liketheyre impossible to kill. now your strength over theyre weakness and yer set :aok
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:aok
+1
1 perk is a joke. heck perk the p47's with the unlimited ammo :rofl.
semp
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why perk it if its only gonna be 1 perk....
and it isnt liketheyre impossible to kill. now your strength over theyre weakness and yer set :aok
Why perk the M4 76 at 1 perk?
It deserves to be more anyway.
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Why perk the M4 76 at 1 perk?
It deserves to be more anyway.
didnt know the 76 is perked to begin with :lol
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Chuckles.... :lol
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1 perk is psychological, everyone will think twice before taking one up. And hopefully you will see less of them.
I fight the planes with their weaknesses, but this one doesn't have any as it is modeled now.
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1 perk is psychological, everyone will think twice before taking one up. And hopefully you will see less of them.
I fight the planes with their weaknesses, but this one doesn't have any as it is modeled now.
I beg to differ...give me an even skilled pilot in a spit 16 and I will fight in my F4U or Fm2...
although the psycological part makes sense...
im not for it, but im not against it as i dont fly it. could care less whether its perked, but it does have weaknesses. Grnted, its fast, turns well and climbs well. it does have its flaws though.
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If you're flying a plane that uses its speed to survive, the spit16 is almost impossible to defeat at co-E same pilot. You can just barely run from it until he gets bored. And you can still die from a single hizooka shell from d800.
That is why I think it throws the game's balance off, and should be very lightly perked.
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Perk the spit16....10.0 perk
fixed
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-1
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-1
Please bring arguments in.
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"I fight the planes with their weaknesses, but this one doesn't have any as it is modeled now"
Not true.
Joachim and Stormdog (during a furball :bolt:) in a la7 and p40 respectively kicked my donut ! :eek:
:D
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donut?
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Joachim and Stormdog (during a furball :bolt:) in a la7 and p40 respectively kicked my donut ! :eek:
With all respects you are not an equal pilot :D
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I fight the planes with their weaknesses, but this one doesn't have any as it is modeled now.
the Spit XIV has many weaknesses, you just have to be skilled enough to take advantage of them.
Your comment, "as it is modeled now" indicates you feel the flight model is incorrect in some fashion, care to show any data that the flight model is incorrect?
ack-ack
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the spit IX Lfe model is perfectly fine. I quite enjoyed beating them in a hurricane MkIa when i was online. It's only slightly faster than the MkIX HF we have and slower than the MKVIII .
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no perk. There wings are wood, rip off sooo easily
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the Spit XIV has many weaknesses, you just have to be skilled enough to take advantage of them.
Your comment, "as it is modeled now" indicates you feel the flight model is incorrect in some fashion, care to show any data that the flight model is incorrect?
ack-ack
for starters Im talking about the spitXVI
I have doubts that the cliped wings would change the plane THAT much, but with my limited aerodynamics knowledge I have no means to quantify these changes. The answer lies in the airflow coading of the local god. The A6m3 makes an interresting case study.
As a sidenote I believe you're making assumptions about my skills levels, you can test them out anytime.
I'll answer the rest tomorrow, time to sleep!
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Back in my prime i could take a spit 16 most any day, Co-E and alt in an f4u. ive got more rust then the titanic now though, so its different...but the spit 16 is not as "uber" as it appears to be. Any plane can be beaten, exploit its weaknesses and your golden.
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I'm a spitdweeb, nobody here is any dweeber than me. I'm more cautious flying against the 8 than the 16. most players think the 16 it's a yak and fly it like that.
semp
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I have no problem with the 16 costing a perk, as long as anything ENY 9 and down cost a perk or more.
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for starters Im talking about the spitXVI
was a typo on my part, meant the XVI.
I have doubts that the cliped wings would change the plane THAT much, but with my limited aerodynamics knowledge I have no means to quantify these changes. The answer lies in the airflow coading of the local god. The A6m3 makes an interresting case study.
So, you have no proof other than an unqualified assumption on your part because you think it shouldn't fly the way it does. I understand now.
As a sidenote I believe you're making assumptions about my skills levels, you can test them out anytime.
:rofl Did someone's ego take a little ding?
ack-ack
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I beg to differ...give me an even skilled pilot in a spit 16 and I will fight in my F4U or Fm2...
Neither plane is superior to the Spit16. The F4U-1A has a significantly better top speed and turn radius with flaps, but is not superior in sustained turn rate (usually the important factor), and is vastly inferior in climb, accel, roll rate, to say nothing of gun lethality.
The FM2's situation is even worse. Its advantage is instantaneous turn and turn radius...thats about it. Think about it...a well flown 109 will usually dance on an FM2's head all day long...what do you think the easier to fly, better turning faster rolling, much more heavily armed Spixteen will do?
Spit16 pilots who have the vaguest idea of how to stay in a nose-to-tail chase, avoid scissors, and use their E-building capacities should usually be able to rape both blue planes Co-e. The fact that they often do not is more a testament to the noobs flying the Spixteen than any shortcomings of the plane itself.
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Oh, for full disclosure, everyone reading this thread should know that Ack-Ack has previously stated he does not believe any planes should be perked except for the Me-262 and Me-163. IOW, he believes 4-Hogs, C-Hogs, and Tempests should all be free in the Mains. Thus it is useless to argue with him that the SpitXVI should be perked on the basis of performance. Since he does not believe in perking *any* prop fighter, his stance on perk status for the SpitXVI is logically consistent, albeit also quite possibly devoid of common sense.
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I have doubts that the cliped wings would change the plane THAT much, but with my limited aerodynamics knowledge I have no means to quantify these changes. The answer lies in the airflow coading of the local god. The A6m3 makes an interresting case study.
The Spitfire's roll rates, clipped and unclipped, are taken directly from the NACA chart.
If you want the Spitfire Mk XVI perked, surely you want the vastly more common and more successful P-51D perked, right? If not, why not?
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Oh, for full disclosure, everyone reading this thread should know that Ack-Ack has previously stated he does not believe any planes should be perked except for the Me-262 and Me-163. IOW, he believes 4-Hogs, C-Hogs, and Tempests should all be free in the Mains. Thus it is useless to argue with him that the SpitXVI should be perked on the basis of performance. Since he does not believe in perking *any* prop fighter, his stance on perk status for the SpitXVI is logically consistent, albeit also quite possibly devoid of common sense.
I believe in perking the planes and vehicles that would otherwise unbalance the game play if unperked. The Spitfire XVI, unperked does not unbalance the game play in the arena and those claiming that it does have been unable to show or prove how it does unbalance the game.
Please, explain how the Spitfire XVI has been an unbalancing factor in the game play. I know I've asked you this question many times in the past and you've been unable to show at all how the Spitfire XVI unbalances the game play if left unperked.
I'm in favor of removing the perks form the C-Hog because I believe that it would no longer unbalance the game play like it did prior to it being perked. Calling for the Spitfire XVI to be perked is just as silly as the past cries to perk the La-7.
ack-ack
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1 perk is psychological, everyone will think twice before taking one up. And hopefully you will see less of them.
I fight the planes with their weaknesses, but this one doesn't have any as it is modeled now.
LOL that's just silly. 16s aren't invincible, in fact this 38G driver likes to see em cause they think they are, and tend to stick around and try and fight.
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Why perk the M4 76 at 1 perk?
It deserves to be more anyway.
Not anymore. The reload rate is now 5 seconds or more. The old reload rate of 3.6 seconds gave it perk worthy-ness, even if it were only 1.
EDIT: Im not sold on perking the Spit16, La7, or P51D. I am in favor of lowering their ENY to 2. Same goes for the 262. The 163 can stay where it is.
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No need to perk the Spit 16.
I agree with Guppy, I like to see them because they do tend to stick around and fight. See a couple of spits... "ah ha, a fight". See a couple of 51's... "ok whos running where" :headscratch:
Perking them would only cause them to fly less aggressive.
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You have, in the past, stated quite plainly you do not believe any aircraft except the jet and the rocket should be perked. Do you admit this, or do I have to go to trouble of looking up the posts? Therefore, your opinion on whether or not any particular prop fighter should or should not be perked carries no meaning.
The term "unbalancing" has never been defined in a precise and consistent manner. It is thus pointless to argue about whether any particular aircraft is "unbalancing" or not, it is like arguing about what is "pornographic" and what is not. Give me a precise definition of the term "unbalancing" that provably applies to all the planes currently perked, and then we will talk.
This is a game. Games are constantly manipulated to make the play more fair, varied, and enjoyable. The rules of chess, for instance, are not the same as they were in the reign of Charlemagne. Combat between dissimilar aircraft is at its most fun, interesting, and fairest when none of the aircraft present hold all (or the vast majority) of the cards. Both the SpitXVI and the La7 should be lightly perked in the interest of fairness and variety, given the very large number of other types to which they are double superior. (Those who are ignorant of the precise definition of this last term as it applies to air combat performance, please do not waste time and bandwith by replying.)
I believe in perking the planes and vehicles that would otherwise unbalance the game play if unperked. The Spitfire XVI, unperked does not unbalance the game play in the arena and those claiming that it does have been unable to show or prove how it does unbalance the game.
Please, explain how the Spitfire XVI has been an unbalancing factor in the game play. I know I've asked you this question many times in the past and you've been unable to show at all how the Spitfire XVI unbalances the game play if left unperked.
I'm in favor of removing the perks form the C-Hog because I believe that it would no longer unbalance the game play like it did prior to it being perked. Calling for the Spitfire XVI to be perked is just as silly as the past cries to perk the La-7.
ack-ack
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LOL that's just silly. 16s aren't invincible, in fact this 38G driver likes to see em cause they think they are, and tend to stick around and try and fight.
So in your opinion, gameplay is better (fairer? more fun? I don't if we have a consistent definition here either) in a situation where one aircraft has every single advantage except possibly pilotage, than in a situation one plane is inferior in one two areas (say turn and climb) but has the option of using its superior speed to disengage?
I can only say our definitions of what constitutes fun and balanced gameplay are very different.
Oh, and Spixteens CAN run from your P-38G without too much trouble. I have seen PLENTY of Spixteens running in the MA.
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You have, in the past, stated quite plainly you do not believe any aircraft except the jet and the rocket should be perked. Do you admit this, or do I have to go to trouble of looking up the posts? Therefore, your opinion on whether or not any particular prop fighter should or should not be perked carries no meaning.
What I stated in my previous post has always been my stance and hasn't changed in all the years I've played AH. So, please go ahead and post anything where I've said otherwise.
The term "unbalancing" has never been defined in a precise and consistent manner. It is thus pointless to argue about whether any particular aircraft is "unbalancing" or not, it is like arguing about what is "pornographic" and what is not. Give me a precise definition of the term "unbalancing" that provably applies to all the planes currently perked, and then we will talk.
It has been many times and with the example of the C-Hog to show how a plane could unbalance the game play. Seriously, it doesn't take a genius to figure out what one means by the term "unbalanced game play", especially if using an example of a plane that when first introduced did unbalance game play (which I believe is no longer the case with our increased plane set). I'll say it again just like I said it you many times in the past, please show how the Spitfire XIV unbalances the game play like the C-Hog did when it was first introduced. It's been years and a lot of us have been waiting for your answer and we're all starting to get old waiting.
ack-ack
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The Spitfire's roll rates, clipped and unclipped, are taken directly from the NACA chart.
If you want the Spitfire Mk XVI perked, surely you want the vastly more common and more successful P-51D perked, right? If not, why not?
I'm sure the spit16 is right on the charts on measurable performances.
its not about usage volume but performance. The P51D is limited to boom and zoom, while the spit16 is pretty good for bnz (almost as good as the pony) AND a fearsome dogfighter, that's why it is a bit too good to be free IMO. As a pony driver, if the spit16 knows what he is doing, what am I supposed to do to beat it?
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the French messing with my Spit16?!?! RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!
:noid
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So in your opinion, gameplay is better (fairer? more fun? I don't if we have a consistent definition here either) in a situation where one aircraft has every single advantage except possibly pilotage, than in a situation one plane is inferior in one two areas (say turn and climb) but has the option of using its superior speed to disengage?
my thoughts exactly. leave the skills out of the equation.
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the Spit XIV has many weaknesses
I completely disagree, if flown correctly it has none. :old:
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There is no need to perk spit 16, it's not good above 10K and it's not one of the fastest planes. Sure the spit16 will kill you if you play it's fight, which most people do, but the trick is to make it play yours and you'll win (just like with any other plane).
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I completely disagree, if flown correctly it has none. :old:
You can not remove remove weaknesses or generally change the performance limitations by "flying correctly".
A good pilot may be able to overcome them by carefully respecting the performance limitations and trying to use the plane's strengths... but the weak points are still there.
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You can not remove remove weaknesses or generally change the performance limitations by "flying correctly".
A good pilot may be able to overcome them by carefully respecting the performance limitations and trying to use the plane's strengths... but the weak points are still there.
Ah yeah but you know I'm never going to agree to that in Spit14's case :)
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I'm sure the spit16 is right on the charts on measurable performances.
its not about usage volume but performance. The P51D is limited to boom and zoom, while the spit16 is pretty good for bnz (almost as good as the pony) AND a fearsome dogfighter, that's why it is a bit too good to be free IMO. As a pony driver, if the spit16 knows what he is doing, what am I supposed to do to beat it?
Sorry, I can't agree. The P-51D is just as potent, if not more so, in this game. The fact that you like it and it is your baby doesn't excuse it from the discussion. It has far more kills and a better K/D ratio than the Spitfire Mk XVI every tour and you and not just hand wave that away.
For me it would be better if the Spitfire Mk XVI were perked, but I think it would be worse for the game.
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It has far more kills and a better K/D ratio than the Spitfire Mk XVI every tour and you and not just hand wave that away.
In fact, the usage for the P-51D has gone way up during the last 6 months... current tour is 23K to 12K kills (with a better k/d to boot). I can't remember the Pony ever outclassing the 16 in the stats by such a margin before.
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I'm sure the spit16 is right on the charts on measurable performances.
its not about usage volume but performance. The P51D is limited to boom and zoom, while the spit16 is pretty good for bnz (almost as good as the pony) AND a fearsome dogfighter, that's why it is a bit too good to be free IMO. As a pony driver, if the spit16 knows what he is doing, what am I supposed to do to beat it?
what? so we cannot turn fight with the ponyd? where's that written in the rules? and I switched from flying spits to flying ponies because they can also turn fight.
semp
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what? so we cannot turn fight with the ponyd? where's that written in the rules? and I switched from flying spits to flying ponies because they can also turn fight.
semp
assuming you had a clone flying a spit16, would you turnfight him in a pony for more than 360 degrees?
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+1 Sir Nuke
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assuming you had a clone flying a spit16, would you turnfight him in a pony for more than 360 degrees?
why not? will my ponyd drop out of the sky if I do?
there are some really good spit16 dweebsters out there with them no matter what I do, I am dead. but most people to put it mildly suck in the spit16. ponyd with flaps should really keep up with it once the 16 lose their e. or if they dont want to lose their e, conserve yours go above them then once they turn nail them from above. there are so many things you can do to get a kill.
there are so many other planes that are flown regularly that outperform the spit16. and many experienced players fly them more than the regular "spit 16 is better than the 8, because it has a higher number" crowd. what about the yak, the c205 both of these are flown and turn just like the spit16 at high speed, and yet no calls to perk them either.
you ever fought against lilmak and his infamous p47? he should be perked :D.
semp
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the Spit XIV has many weaknesses, you just have to be skilled enough to take advantage of them.
Your comment, "as it is modeled now" indicates you feel the flight model is incorrect in some fashion, care to show any data that the flight model is incorrect?
ack-ack
OK basic BBS protocol here. You're the third person that has claimed the Spit XVI has "many weekness" then failed to list them. Please list them or this isn't much of a point. :salute
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Semp i bet youre a spit lover...
c205 has NO chance against the spixteen nor the jak
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why not? will my ponyd drop out of the sky if I do?
It will with a nice stall :D
why not? will my ponyd drop out of the sky if I do?
what about the yak, the c205 both of these are flown and turn just like the spit16 at high speed, and yet no calls to perk them either.
maybe with some struggle but if the fight slows down you are dead meat.
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OK basic BBS protocol here. You're the third person that has claimed the Spit XVI has "many weekness" then failed to list them. Please list them or this isn't much of a point. :salute
Only weakness listed for now is the fragility of the wings (which are not made of wood btw), lack of extraordinary top speed at 10-15K (only 380mph or so :lol)
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Sorry, I can't agree. The P-51D is just as potent, if not more so, in this game.
more efficient attacker for sure, considering its range, and loadout. In pure fighter role the 16 is better.
The fact that you like it and it is your baby doesn't excuse it from the discussion.
I like all the planes, last time I flew a spit16 I was shocked by its performance, and sealed it away for the sake of not taking bad habits
It has far more kills and a better K/D ratio than the Spitfire Mk XVI every tour and you and not just hand wave that away.
I can explain that by the fact that people take spit16's for base defence, and P51's for attack. Also people that take P51's have the basics of energy fighting down most probably. No proof tho, just observation
For me it would be better if the Spitfire Mk XVI were perked, but I think it would be worse for the game.
you are the game too
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-1 you know i always fly my spitz!!!!!!!!!!!!! you noobbzzzzzzzz farzzzzzzzzzzzz mezzzzzzz
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It has been many times and with the example of the C-Hog to show how a plane could unbalance the game play. Seriously, it doesn't take a genius to figure out what one means by the term "unbalanced game play", especially if using an example of a plane that when first introduced did unbalance game play (which I believe is no longer the case with our increased plane set). I'll say it again just like I said it you many times in the past, please show how the Spitfire XIV unbalances the game play like the C-Hog did when it was first introduced. It's been years and a lot of us have been waiting for your answer and we're all starting to get old waiting.
ack-ack
Define the precise way in which the C-Hog unbalanced gameplay, please.
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Sorry, I can't agree. The P-51D is just as potent, if not more so, in this game. The fact that you like it and it is your baby doesn't excuse it from the discussion. It has far more kills and a better K/D ratio than the Spitfire Mk XVI every tour and you and not just hand wave that away.
When I have looked at k/d numbers in the past, the P-51D and Spit were very close, so close I wouldn't be surprised if they change places in the standing some tours. Also, one can expect that an airplane which is often upped from a vulched field will have a lower k/d than one which is usually not upped for base defense, and is often flown in a very, uh, "conservative" manner.
Considering how often it is used by lemmings, and that it is 344mph airplane to the P-51's 368, the fact that the SpitXVI has a k/d about as good as the 51's every tour is actually pretty amazing and a testament to its effectiveness in the average MA player's hands.
The problem of using either popularity or k/d as a criteria has been discussed at length. By k/d, the P-38J is superior to the P-38L and most of the other rides in the MA. In contrast, by usage, the silver 38 is superior to its olive drab stablemate. :D These numbers are subject to player whims and trends that have nothing to do with performance, and are thus meaningless.
For me it would be better if the Spitfire Mk XVI were perked, but I think it would be worse for the game.
Why would lightly perking one specific ride worsen for overall gameplay to any extent? In my view, not only would the game be better for you and and your Mosquito, but it would be a substantially better environment for a whole host of rides which are somewhat "middle of the road" along the speed/maneuverability spectrum which are currently out-run by the spit-horde, while also being ridiculously out-turned, out-climbed, and out-rolled by by that type, making the not particularly viable in the LW MA. The Late War bnz speed demons everyone loves to hate, are, by contrast, not so much effected by the spixteen, they can just out-run it.
I cannot understand why it is considered such a travesty to use the perk system on fighter aircraft in the game. I don't GV much, but at least half the available tanks are currently perked to level the playing field, are they not? Hell, I would go along with lightly perking the bloody P-51D, even though I think that is ridiculous given that aircraft's all-around performance, if it also got the Spixteen a price tag.
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I thought this was a joke thread but seeing one of The Phew serious about this matter gives me double chuckles... :lol :lol
You were kidding right Nuke? :headscratch:
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I thought this was a joke thread but seeing one of The Phew serious about this matter gives me double chuckles... :lol :lol
You were kidding right Nuke? :headscratch:
Being a member of the many doesn't necessary make me biased towards spits.
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Being a member of the many doesn't necessary make me biased towards spits.
So you were kidding? All jokes aside, I agree that the Spit 16 is a powerhouse in a great pilots hands. In average hands it can be managed easily enough by a better than average pilot such as yourself. No need to perk it Sir. There needs to be some perk free easier to fly planes in the plane set for newer pilots to fly, so leave it unperked. My .02 cents
:salute
Way
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Why would lightly perking one specific ride worsen for overall gameplay to any extent?
Because new player retention would go down as the newbie players were shuffled off into less newbie friendly rides. Period.
I recall once, years ago, flying about in a Mossie looking for prey between a couple of fields. I encountered an La-5FN, engaged and, once in gun range, killed it in less than 5 seconds. And again. And again. And again. After the fourth kill I landed and went somewhere else. The La-5FN player was not learning anything other than Mosquitos have really powerful guns. He wasn't living long enough to learn anything about evasives or trying to go aggressive. He was just dying. Now, granted, this particular newbie could have been upping Spitfire Mk IXs (no Mk VIIIs or Mk XVIs back then) but was instead, for whatever reason, upping La-5FNs, but I do not wish to make the initial part of this game any harder on the new player than it already is.
FWIW, a competent La-5FN driver will eat a Mossie VI for lunch, pilots being remotely equal.
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10 perks for the XVI sounds ok which means say, 15 to 20 perks for the D pony.
how many perks would you make the LA7 and N1K under this new noobs dont get to fly competitive late war rides scheme?
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"Perking" does nothing because some of the most unrealistic mission profiles garner huge amounts of perk points.
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I fight the planes with their weaknesses, but this one doesn't have any as it is modeled now.
Making a statement like this seriously undermines your credibility.
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Neither plane is superior to the Spit16. The F4U-1A has a significantly better top speed and turn radius with flaps, but is not superior in sustained turn rate (usually the important factor), and is vastly inferior in climb, accel, roll rate, to say nothing of gun lethality.
The FM2's situation is even worse. Its advantage is instantaneous turn and turn radius...thats about it. Think about it...a well flown 109 will usually dance on an FM2's head all day long...what do you think the easier to fly, better turning faster rolling, much more heavily armed Spixteen will do?
Spit16 pilots who have the vaguest idea of how to stay in a nose-to-tail chase, avoid scissors, and use their E-building capacities should usually be able to rape both blue planes Co-e. The fact that they often do not is more a testament to the noobs flying the Spixteen than any shortcomings of the plane itself.
if you werent so vastly superior to me, i would gladly do some friendly 1-1's to see this in action. Harder to fight 2 ponies in any plane then a lone spit 16. especially in an Fm2 where it takes forever for its E to be regained if it doesnt get a few moments. Only times i die to a spit 16 it seems...pilot error on my part. whether it be a bad decision or a missed shot.
I am still highly opposed to perking it. it isnt overly unbalancing, and would drive down the player base. new players wouldnt be as attracted. i find the LA7 easier to fly then the spit16. I'm not calling for the La7 to be perked, but if any plane gets perked here its the la7 in my book.
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Making a statement like this seriously undermines your credibility.
nobody listed the weaknesses yet tho.
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wings have a tendency to fall during sudden moves. most pilots that fly 16 mostly ho, without cannon two 50 mg are useless. get it below 200 and I can out turn with a pony.
spit 16 is not even close to being the best airplane. and if you get killed by it is mostly because you play the other player's game and not yours.
semp
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wings have a tendency to fall during sudden moves. most pilots that fly 16 mostly ho, without cannon two 50 mg are useless. get it below 200 and I can out turn with a pony.
spit 16 is not even close to being the best airplane. and if you get killed by it is mostly because you play the other player's game and not yours.
semp
+1
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Because new player retention would go down as the newbie players were shuffled off into less newbie friendly rides. Period.
This silly argument again?
-There are plenty of a/c that are easy to fly without possessing such such "uberness". For years the SpitIX you mention below was considered a highly competitive, dangerous plane in the LW MA and was the #1 choice newbs were advised to take up. The more powerful SpitVIII is also available now. Anyway, using your logic, I could say that depriving noobs of Tempests and C-Hogs is hurting retention.
-There is no sign on the SpitXVI or any other plane saying "you must be this inexperienced to fly". New players can just as easily run into more experienced sticks flying the SpitXVI also, or experience the frustration when they try to compete with the uber spits in other rides.
-Perhaps most importantly, if you are arguing that the SpitXVI is so uber that it will allow a new player to bridge a vast gap in skill and gain victory against much more experienced pilots, then you are making a great argument for perking the beast.
I recall once, years ago, flying about in a Mossie looking for prey between a couple of fields. I encountered an La-5FN, engaged and, once in gun range, killed it in less than 5 seconds. And again. And again. And again. After the fourth kill I landed and went somewhere else. The La-5FN player was not learning anything other than Mosquitos have really powerful guns. He wasn't living long enough to learn anything about evasives or trying to go aggressive. He was just dying. Now, granted, this particular newbie could have been upping Spitfire Mk IXs (no Mk VIIIs or Mk XVIs back then) but was instead, for whatever reason, upping La-5FNs, but I do not wish to make the initial part of this game any harder on the new player than it already is.
FWIW, a competent La-5FN driver will eat a Mossie VI for lunch, pilots being remotely equal.
I doubt that a Spit would have served any better in this player's hands than an La5, and to reiterate what I said earlier, if a plane type can bridge such a large gap in skill, then maybe it ought to be perked-or have its modeling looked at. I also sincerely doubt that player retention has much of anything to do with which planes or perked, or even initial success. Those who want to play will, those who won't, will not. I furthermore sincerely doubt those using new player retention as a debating point with me in this discussion are *actually* all that fired up about the issue IMO, but stranger things have happened. *shrug*. the only thing one can really do is maybe take a new pilot under one's wings now and again and teach them the basics.
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wings have a tendency to fall during sudden moves. most pilots that fly 16 mostly ho, without cannon two 50 mg are useless. get it below 200 and I can out turn with a pony.
spit 16 is not even close to being the best airplane. and if you get killed by it is mostly because you play the other player's game and not yours.
semp
Tell us Semp, what game do you play against a craft that has a better sustained turn rate and radius, better climb and vertical performance, vastly better roll rate, better acceleration, and equal or higher top speed? There are dozens of rides in that boat vs. the SpitIX. No one can name an area where the SpitXVI truly falls down. It can be out-turned by a few of the uber-tnb planes like the Brew or Zeke, but is vastly superior in speed and E performance to all of these. The LW speed demons like the P-51 or Dora can outrun it, but truly have no advantage to offer against it in a maneuvering dogfight.
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10 perks for the XVI sounds ok which means say, 15 to 20 perks for the D pony.
Bit of nationalism showing RT? :D You can put that away, don't worry, I'm still an Anglophile, even if I think the Spit16 ought to be perked. ;)
Why in the world would you perk the P-51D in the C-Hog range? And honestly, why in the world would you perk a plane than that 90% of the plane set can out turn easily, and most LW monsters can out-accelerate and out-climb, at a higher price than the SpitXVI, whose weaknesses or lack thereof have been discussed to death? Can you offer a reasonable explanation, other than everyone and his dog likes to fly the P-51D?
how many perks would you make the LA7 and N1K under this new noobs dont get to fly competitive late war rides scheme?
The La7 should be *lightly* perked for roughly the same reason the SpitXVI should...it's combination of speed and maneuverability means it holds all the cards against way too many rides. It is never about one single trait, but how the overall performance stacks up against the rest of the set in a dogfight. If it still went 380 on the deck but turned like a Dora, I would not be in favor of perkage. IMO, it should be perked more lightly than the SpitXVI because it nowhere near as easy to fly and has a miniscule fuel load.
The N1K should not be perked at all. While it has a great punch and is a good turner, at 325mph on the deck it quite slow by LW standards. It rolls like a pig also and its climb rate is far from outstanding by LW standards.
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Making a statement like this seriously undermines your credibility.
The only weaknesses of the bird in a dogfight I can identify are that it can be out-turned by the very best turners in the game like the Zeke, and that the faster LW burners can bravely run away from it. If there is some secret Achilles heel to the plane, I'm sure the whole forum would like to know.
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fuel? ammo?
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Bit of nationalism showing RT? :D You can put that away, don't worry, I'm still an Anglophile, even if I think the Spit16 ought to be perked. ;)
nah Im just going by the unofficial perks based on unbalancing effect on the arenas thingy, I'll refer you to snail's stats ;)
if there were perked planes in the DA for 1v1s, then it would surely be one of the highest perked planes. in the MA, cant argue with the numbers ...
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NOOBS!!!
Let's talk about 'em...everyone in this discussion seems to have a heart that bleeds for them. (heh heh heh) But okay, if we are truly concerned about what perking the spixteen would do to new players, why not bankroll new players some perks?
Or, and I like this idea even better, why not make ALL planes free for new players, up until they get a certain number of career a2a kills, say 200 or so? By that time they should have gained experience.
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nah Im just going by the unofficial perks based on unbalancing effect on the arenas thingy, I'll refer you to snail's stats ;)
if there were perked planes in the DA for 1v1s, then it would surely be one of the highest perked planes. in the MA, cant argue with the numbers ...
If we go by Lusche's numbers, the P-38J and Ta-152 should be among the highest perked planes, considering the astonishing k/d numbers they turn in.
And here we are conveniently forgetting the fact that the Spixteen is the 2nd most popular plane (It might be #1, if the Spit family weren't split into so many models that were also highly effective. Or if most players were Brits instead of Americans.), and its k/d is typically not far off from the P-51D's, in spite of the fact that it is a slower plane more often flown by noobs in a truly suicidal manner. (upping under the vulch)
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Or, and I like this idea even better, why not make ALL planes free for new players, up until they get a certain number of career a2a kills, say 200 or so? By that time they should have gained experience.
in al honesty i seriously considered that...except for the 262's. of course this was a while back.
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in al honesty i seriously considered that...except for the 262's. of course this was a while back.
Sure, probably ought to leave 262s and 163s out...I don't think its bad idea.
But don't fool yourself...I doubt any opposition to perking the Spit16 here has all that much to do with anyone crying their eyes out for the plight of the poor noobs. :devil
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Sure, probably ought to leave 262s and 163s out...I don't think its bad idea.
But don't fool yourself...I doubt any opposition to perking the Spit16 here has all that much to do with anyone crying their eyes out for the plight of the poor noobs. :devil
true.
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So in your opinion, gameplay is better (fairer? more fun? I don't if we have a consistent definition here either) in a situation where one aircraft has every single advantage except possibly pilotage, than in a situation one plane is inferior in one two areas (say turn and climb) but has the option of using its superior speed to disengage?
I can only say our definitions of what constitutes fun and balanced gameplay are very different.
Oh, and Spixteens CAN run from your P-38G without too much trouble. I have seen PLENTY of Spixteens running in the MA.
My point is, it's not invincible, but the Spit 16 drivers think they are, and tend to stick around and fight.
Look at your Sig. You are asking for a Meteor for heavens sake. If you are worried about 16s, why ask for something like that? Keep in mind the XVI we have is the same as a Spitfire LFIX. We need to perk the IX and VIII in game too then? Who cares. Shoot em! :)
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Look at your Sig. You are asking for a Meteor for heavens sake. If you are worried about 16s, why ask for something like that? Keep in mind the XVI we have is the same as a Spitfire LFIX. We need to perk the IX and VIII in game too then? Who cares. Shoot em! :)
Erm its me, and of course it would be perked.
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BnZ when you drop by Paris, let me buy you a couple Beers :cheers:
1 perk point is not much, noobs will have the satisfaction to get a perk ride that they understand...unlike the spit14 :t
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My point is, it's not invincible, but the Spit 16 drivers think they are, and tend to stick around and fight.
Well, every plane in the game can be shot down, but you people always say "The Spit16 is not so good", then fail to name a single weakness of the airframe that can be exploited by most other rides in the game in a dogfight. And your "Spits stick around and fight" idea is also hogwash. You see them run all the time. Default response after figuring out an FM2 can turn with them seems to be running away, often turning into the run/ho routine. Hell, with their acceleration, they can open up a gap and create a long, long, chase for a P-51 before that plane's top speed takes over...and I've seen plenty of them do it.
Look at your Sig. You are asking for a Meteor for heavens sake. If you are worried about 16s, why ask for something like that? Keep in mind the XVI we have is the same as a Spitfire LFIX. We need to perk the IX and VIII in game too then? Who cares. Shoot em! :)
Uh, I thought my sig was quoting a funny line from "BlackAdder", spoken by the guy who now plays Dr. House.... :D
Gupp...we've had this discussion before. If you imply one more time that I am so shallow-minded that the designation number of the a/c is what has me concerned, I might just have to have my seconds call upon your seconds. ;) The IX is slow and not a great climber by LW MA standards, both lack the XVI's fabulous roll rate, the VIII especially is in fact somewhat piggish in that regard at high speeds, all things which you KNOW but choose to be coy about.
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Well, every plane in the game can be shot down, but you people always say "The Spit16 is not so good", then fail to name a single weakness of the airframe that can be exploited by most other rides in the game in a dogfight. And your "Spits stick around and fight" idea is also hogwash. You see them run all the time. Default response after figuring out an FM2 can turn with them seems to be running away, often turning into the run/ho routine. Hell, with their acceleration, they can open up a gap and create a long, long, chase for a P-51 before that plane's top speed takes over...and I've seen plenty of them do it.
that's because you fail to recognize any we suggest. If we say, players cant turn them as well as you think, you wont accept it. I can outturn the majority of them in my ponyd at low speed, but that's not good enough for you. having a spit16 doesnt automatically make you the best pilot in the game. It is just like any other airplane, people only fly it because they think it's cool to do so. so unless you post some information that the spit16 somehow enhances our own suckiness then you might find some more support.
I have flown spits since I started playing, I am the captain of the spitdweeb team. I can tell you that if you want to perk any, it would be the spit8. and that's the one I fly most of the time. It is the best of the spits.
semp
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in a dogfight
see this is the problem - the perked planes are flying in the MA under normal MA usage, not just in the context of an uniterrupted 1v1.
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that's because you fail to recognize any we suggest. If we say, players cant turn them as well as you think, you wont accept it. I can outturn the majority of them in my ponyd at low speed, but that's not good enough for you.
semp
No, you can not. The P-51D, as modeled in the game, is physically incapable of sustaining as quick a turn rate or as tight a radius as the SpitXVI can. The only way in which the P-51 is capable of out-turning a Spit16 is if they are both above corner speed and g-limited rather than lift limited, and the P-51D decelerates more precipitously to its corner velocity. This presumes heavily upon the incomptetence of the Spit driver and is at best a short-lived advantage in any case.
You are (quite willfully, I believe) trying to muddy the issue of hard-wired plane performance with the random factor of pilot skill.
I have probably gotten in more honest-to-God, 1v1 maneuvering fights with Spits and other "turn" aircraft while flying a P-51, P-47, or Fw-190 variant than almost anyone else posting in this discussion.
The other day I engaged a Seafire, who proceeded to go into a series of reversing turns as a defense-an attempt at scissors I suppose. I got off the throttle, put out some flaps, and simply shot him every time he crossed in front of my P-51's nose. If he had performed a rolling scissors instead, I would not have been able to follow. If he had simply slowed his own plane down to minimum speed in the scissors (much lower than that of my plane), I probably could not have stayed in trail. If he simply had sustained a turn in either direction, my nose would have been stuck in lag. It would be innacurate to say this player made gross mistakes-he was competely unaware of the fundamental techniques a dogfighter can make use of, and/or completely ignorant of the relative abilities of his plane and mine. I am NOT insulting whoever it was; Quite probably he has less total time in game than I log in an average week. This is the sort of encounter that leads to entirely specious claims from chest-thumpers about "out-turning" Spits with P-51Ds. This level of incompetence, however, is actually rare, and I expect this player will be quite dangerous in a Spit variant inside of a month's time.
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see this is the problem - the perked planes are flying in the MA under normal MA usage, not just in the context of an uniterrupted 1v1.
"Dogfight" can imply a multi-plane dustup, and that is exactly what I mean here. There are planes which are as good or even better than the SpitXVI in a 1v1. The SpitVIII for instance-so many crow about this plane being "superior" because it has a marginally better sustained turn rate than its clipped-wing stablemate. Yet, outside of the context of a co-alt, co-e, 1v1 "Spitfight", against multiple bandits of different types, the XVI's fabulous roll rate, which gives it the ability to flick and flop out of gun solutions defensively and follow anything offensively, is far more important.
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see this video about things that cannot be done with an airplane.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,311571.0.html
semp
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That video pre-supposes flaws in the flight model physics more than "pilot skill makes bad performers suddenly into good ones"
A good pilot in a 262 still isn't going to flat turn any better against a a6m2, is what he's saying there, gun.
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+1
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what he's saying is that a spit16 will somehow lift the average player's skill. I have fought many spit16s and most are not flown based on other than the resumption that since it's a 16 that it's better than the other spits. I still say i will outturn the average spit16 in my ponyd. there are other airplanes that perform the same maneuvers and have the same characteristics as the spit16. the yak, la7 and the c205 and yet no calls to perk them.
semp
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see this video about things that cannot be done with an airplane.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,311571.0.html
semp
I do not see anything in that video that is anyway strange. I have done versions of every maneuver in that film in real planes. What you are not seeing in that film is how many times the maneuvers ended very differently.
HiTech
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No, you can not. The P-51D, as modeled in the game, is physically incapable of sustaining as quick a turn rate or as tight a radius as the SpitXVI can. The only way in which the P-51 is capable of out-turning a Spit16 is if they are both above corner speed and g-limited rather than lift limited, and the P-51D decelerates more precipitously to its corner velocity. This presumes heavily upon the incomptetence of the Spit driver and is at best a short-lived advantage in any case.
You are (quite willfully, I believe) trying to muddy the issue of hard-wired plane performance with the random factor of pilot skill.
I have probably gotten in more honest-to-God, 1v1 maneuvering fights with Spits and other "turn" aircraft while flying a P-51, P-47, or Fw-190 variant than almost anyone else posting in this discussion.
The other day I engaged a Seafire, who proceeded to go into a series of reversing turns as a defense-an attempt at scissors I suppose. I got off the throttle, put out some flaps, and simply shot him every time he crossed in front of my P-51's nose. If he had performed a rolling scissors instead, I would not have been able to follow. If he had simply slowed his own plane down to minimum speed in the scissors (much lower than that of my plane), I probably could not have stayed in trail. If he simply had sustained a turn in either direction, my nose would have been stuck in lag. It would be innacurate to say this player made gross mistakes-he was competely unaware of the fundamental techniques a dogfighter can make use of, and/or completely ignorant of the relative abilities of his plane and mine. I am NOT insulting whoever it was; Quite probably he has less total time in game than I log in an average week. This is the sort of encounter that leads to entirely specious claims from chest-thumpers about "out-turning" Spits with P-51Ds. This level of incompetence, however, is actually rare, and I expect this player will be quite dangerous in a Spit variant inside of a month's time.
And the bottom line is folks still want to perk what is essentially a 1943 plane because it did things well and was pilot friendly.
So get rid of it completely and give us a Spitfire XII from 43 or a Spitfire LFIXe with full span wings from 44. Would that make a difference? Is it the clipped wing that is such a big deal? That again is something that they did to Vs, the XII was all clipped wings, IXs, VIIIs and the XVI. The plane isn't even using the full boost it was using in 45.
You have a game that is essentially a tactical airwar game that has it's air combat flown at the optimal altitude for an LFIX/XVI Spit. There is a reason they put that engine in it, because the XVI was meant to be used down low. If you are going to fight down low against an LF Spit, expect it's going to be good.
So are we going to make a list of planes to be perked cause we don't like fighting them? Let's force everyone into birds that better suit our style of fighting?
There's nothing about a Spit XVI that convinces me we need to perk it.
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There's nothing about a Spit XVI that convinces me we need to perk it.
^^^ This.
Oh, and they fall apart when you blow a strong fart in the room.
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^^^ This.
Oh, and they fall apart when you blow a strong fart in the room.
:rofl
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I do not see anything in that video that is anyway strange. I have done versions of every maneuver in that film in real planes. What you are not seeing in that film is how many times the maneuvers ended very differently.
HiTech
hitech my point was not to say anything was wrong with the game or the plane, but more to demonstrate to people who when mentioned a maneuver always seem skeptical. bnz is stuck with the idea that the spit16 is an invincible airplane that somehow gives the average player a more than average skill. when actually what i find out is that except for a few players, most really gain no edge with it. but like somebody else mention they're more willing to stick around and fight because they think they have an edge.
semp
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I do not see anything in that video that is anyway strange. I have done versions of every maneuver in that film in real planes. What you are not seeing in that film is how many times the maneuvers ended very differently.
HiTech
i wanna do it in real life now...
Damn you HiTech, why do you have to create a game that spawns habbits I can not afford?
:aok Nice job sir.
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i wanna do it in real life now...
Damn you HiTech, why do you have to create a game that spawns habbits I can not afford?
:aok Nice job sir.
Why that's simple dear Watson. So I can afford them.
HiTech
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Why that's simple dear Watson. So I can afford them.
HiTech
Up with the baby I see :)
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Why that's simple dear Watson. So I can afford them.
HiTech
Better start saving for college instead don't you think? ;)
Or, add a dollar to the sub rate now and you'll have a tidy chunk to send daddy's little girl to whatever Ivy League school she wants to go to in 18 years.
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There is nothing remotely troublesome to me about any spitfire.
If you hit them hard enough they go down also.
I use the antiquated tactic of using what my aircraft gives me and I don't fight against the strengths
of the others. If I can't dictate the fight, I'll break off and reposition and enter the fray again.
I try to force the opposing Pilot to make an error when fighting a Spit. I can't turn or climb with him
so I don't for an extended period of time. (In a P47D11) I'll break, and fight again from an equal
position.
IMHO the only plane that might need perked is the 262. All others aren't that far apart and ALL
aircraft can be used efficiently and wisely. Everyone one of them has strengths and weaknesses
that can be exploited. Formulate a plan....then carry it out.
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The other day I engaged a Seafire, ...
perk the spit 16? Or just spitfires in general?
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(In a P47D11) I'll break, and fight again from an equal
position.
How? The SpitXVI is just as fast at typical MA alts and accelerates far better.
And precisely what WILL you do if you do manage to break away and gain this "equal position"? If the pilot was incompetent enough to loose the angles contest, you would have killed him without having to break away in the first place. You are not going to build an E lead on an aircraft that can climb so much better. So what ARE you going to do? Resort to HOing? Call for friends?
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As a pony driver, if the spit16 knows what he is doing, what am I supposed to do to beat it?
As a Pony driver you should be much more in fear of the 109K-4 than the Spit XVI. I know as I fly both a lot.
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I just hope they get close enough so I can shoot em with my pistol from my Brewster. :D :airplane:
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get it below 200 and I can out turn with a pony.
DA to test that theory?
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DA to test that theory?
anytime get me an average pilot.
semp
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I can confirm,
By not so few planes and circumstances spit 16 can be
out-turned easily with not so much pilot skills.
:salute
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BnZ I will usually break when the spit goes up. I keep the energy at a level that I can get some temporary room.
IE enough room to turn into the spitfire. Also.....if the spit has a great deal more energy then the D11 it really
is easy enough to bleed the energy in the Jug faster then the spit can forcing an overshoot. I toggle the wep
on and off hoping for a qhick snapshot because that's all I'll get. If I miss at that point I'm down.
The point is that this is fun for me. If I win I've accomplished something that should embarass the Spit driver.
BTW the D11 is fairly fast on the deck. If I lose.....I get another D11 and rinse & repeat.
I'm not trying to embarass anyone with my remarks. It's just how I feel and play the game.
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anytime get me an average pilot.
semp
Translation: Get me a clueless two-weeker who probably still has the stall limiter on.
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And the bottom line is folks still want to perk what is essentially a 1943 plane because it did things well and was pilot friendly.
I don't care if it first rolled off the production line in 1843-performance, performance, performance.
Is it the clipped wing that is such a big deal?
Yes. Unclipped Spits are moderately bad in the roll axis at high speeds. The XVI lacks even this weakness.
You have a game that is essentially a tactical airwar game that has it's air combat flown at the optimal altitude for an LFIX/XVI Spit. There is a reason they put that engine in it, because the XVI was meant to be used down low. If you are going to fight down low against an LF Spit, expect it's going to be good.
Last time I checked, every plane that is perked IS perked because it was "good" in some way, with the possible exception of the SpitXIV.
So are we going to make a list of planes to be perked cause we don't like fighting them? Let's force everyone into birds that better suit our style of fighting?
No. We are going to make a list of planes whose combination of speed, maneuverability, e-building capacity, and lethality leave many, many rides in the arena with really no cards to play against it, while being very, very, easy to fly. If the SpitXVI were *less* than it is in even a single attribute-20mph slower or climbed like a P-47, or rolled like a Typhoon, or had an inneffective guns-I would not be in favor of a perk price.
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As a Pony driver you should be much more in fear of the 109K-4 than the Spit XVI. I know as I fly both a lot.
I know that my Pony has virtually no chance against a *skilled* 109K4 driver.
But I also know it actually takes some time and thought to become dangerous in a K4...and that makes me feel better. Agent, Bunnies, Madda, et al-if they kill me in a K4, they earned it.
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I know that my Pony has virtually no chance against a *skilled* 109K4 driver.
But I also know it actually takes some time and thought to become dangerous in a K4...and that makes me feel better. Agent, Bunnies, Madda, et al-if they kill me in a K4, they earned it.
Ponies are my favorite targets while I'm in a K4. They have absolutely no cards to play. The K4 is faster, climbs better, turns better, accelerates better... Roll rate might go to the Pony along with smoother control in a high speed dive but that's about it.
But this is a thread about the Spit XVI. After flying the XVI as my primary ride from it's introduction to the game until a couple of months ago when I moved back to the IX my K/D in the XVI was always low compared to other planes (190A-8, 109K-4, etc.) that I also fly regularily. The XVI lures you into a false sense of security. It does everything so well that you feel you can take on the world and, sometimes you can. I've been able to win in as many as 4:1 odds in one against decent pilots.That said all of the faster planes are faster and all of the better turning planes turn better. The XVI is near the top of the class in every category but not THE BEST at anything. You have to know what your strengths are to beat one and you typically won't have many to exploit. It's that middle rung of "jack of all trades" planes that will have the most difficult time with a XVI. The combination of a fast plane and a good turning plane is the most dangerous to face in a XVI because they can take away your primary advantages.
I think perking the XVI would be detrimental to the game. As others have pointed out and from personal experience Spits will stick around to fight. They are also good rides for new players and overall do not dominate the arena. No need for a perk.
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Translation: Get me a clueless two-weeker who probably still has the stall limiter on.
translation: i cant fight them so perk them.
semp
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I don't care if it first rolled off the production line in 1843-performance, performance, performance.
Yes. Unclipped Spits are moderately bad in the roll axis at high speeds. The XVI lacks even this weakness.
Last time I checked, every plane that is perked IS perked because it was "good" in some way, with the possible exception of the SpitXIV.
No. We are going to make a list of planes whose combination of speed, maneuverability, e-building capacity, and lethality leave many, many rides in the arena with really no cards to play against it, while being very, very, easy to fly. If the SpitXVI were *less* than it is in even a single attribute-20mph slower or climbed like a P-47, or rolled like a Typhoon, or had an inneffective guns-I would not be in favor of a perk price.
As a 38G driver I know the 51 guys hold all the cards unless they make a mistake. So be it. I could argue that the P51 should be perked for your same reasons. My options then are to fly a better bird, like a 51 or just shoot 51s that make mistakes.
But I live with the choice not to fly birds more uber. Shouldn't penalize the guys who do, because it's detrimental to my cartoon pilot life :)
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As a 38G driver I know the 51 guys hold all the cards unless they make a mistake. So be it. I could argue that the P51 should be perked for your same reasons. My options then are to fly a better bird, like a 51 or just shoot 51s that make mistakes.
But I live with the choice not to fly birds more uber. Shouldn't penalize the guys who do, because it's detrimental to my cartoon pilot life :)
well put guppy.
semp
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Ah yeah but you know I'm never going to agree to that in Spit14's case :)
14's weakness is going left against most other planes. If I'm in a 16 v. a 14 I'm taking the fight to the left. The slower we get the more advantage I have.
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No.
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ok spit XVI failings are
1) larger turn radius than spit IX , VIII , V
2) snap rolls at low speed
3) poor slow speed handling when compared to other full span spits
4) poor high speed turning when compared to other aircraft (p51 , F4u )
5) small gun package
6) poor viability over the nose
7) higher stall speed compared to other spits
8) small fuel load
Notice that when compared to other spits it loses some of it's advantages . This doesn't happing with any other perk plane. Of note the spit XIV IS not another spit but is a different type of fighter altogether (it's a different type of fighter) .
The only other spit that should ever be perked is the XII if it was introduced .
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All spits are pink on the inside :neener:
JUGgler
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ok spit XVI failings are
1) larger turn radius than spit IX , VIII , V
2) snap rolls at low speed
3) poor slow speed handling when compared to other full span spits
4) poor high speed turning when compared to other aircraft (p51 , F4u )
5) small gun package
6) poor viability over the nose
7) higher stall speed compared to other spits
8) small fuel load
Notice that when compared to other spits it loses some of it's advantages . This doesn't happing with any other perk plane. Of note the spit XIV IS not another spit but is a different type of fighter altogether (it's a different type of fighter) .
The only other spit that should ever be perked is the XII if it was introduced .
The view over the nose is the same as the VIII and IX. Gun package is considered better then the 4 303 and 2 20mm. Fuel load is the same as the I, V, IX
No the XII should not be perked if we ever get it :)
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No need to perk the Spit 16.
I agree with Guppy, I like to see them because they do tend to stick around and fight. See a couple of spits... "ah ha, a fight". See a couple of 51's... "ok whos running where" :headscratch:
Perking them would only cause them to fly less aggressive.
I completely agree with this statement. Most MA players won't engage properly without an advantage of some sort. If its not a Spixteen its a numbers advantage and I'd rather fight a single Spixteen than 2 or more enemies any day. Besides I have no real problem fighting them in my F6F anyway. I have more problems with the Spit 5, 8 or 9 than the 16.
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The over the nose is the same as the spit IX and VIII but it is poor when you compare it to the P38 , hurricane, P40 , La family , brewster , 205 , AM6 , niki , so on and so forth . Again small fuel load compared to other fighters . Any way all those add up to non perkieness , after all some asked for bad points about the spit IXLFe . The gun package is small compared to the P47 or some of the FW190's and Bf 109's . it wasn't meant as a comparison just to other spitfires , but I did point out where it wasn't as good as other spits where it did perform better than most aircraft but fell below other models .
I wanted to show that there were quite a short falls to it that means it's not perk worthy .
Personally i prefer the 4 .303 but then i tend to fire when I'm at 200 yards or less .
*psst guppy perking the XII for every one bar yourself you don't want anyone else flying it surely?*
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Well with only 100 Spit XIIs built, can you imagine how fast I'd go through them? :)
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I think the biggest reason the Spit16 isn't perked is that we are actually policing ourselves.
How many experienced sticks in AH do you see that fly the Spit16 fulltime? Compare this to the CHog prior to it being perked a long time ago, if the use of the Spit16 becomes a problem like the CHog was, I'm sure HTC will perk it.
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the spit IXLFe isn't a problem at all . if you can beat a spit IX you can beat the XVI .
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the spit IXLFe isn't a problem at all . if you can beat a spit IX you can beat the XVI .
I haven't been following this thread, but I popped in to see the last comment. That's as close to a lie as you can get B3yt...
Might as well say "If you can beat a 109E4 you can beat a 109K4"...
http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=spit16&p2=spit9
Yeah... just like beating a spitIX... only the XVI is 25mph fast... it climbes 1000fpm better, it TURNS TIGHTER... it accelerates better.
So, yeah, except that the XVI is a class or two above in every performance category, it's just like killing a spitIX... sure.
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I haven't been following this thread, but I popped in to see the last comment. That's as close to a lie as you can get B3yt...
Might as well say "If you can beat a 109E4 you can beat a 109K4"...
http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=spit16&p2=spit9
Yeah... just like beating a spitIX... only the XVI is 25mph fast... it climbes 1000fpm better, it TURNS TIGHTER... it accelerates better.
So, yeah, except that the XVI is a class or two above in every performance category, it's just like killing a spitIX... sure.
if the plane was flying itself, it could probably outperform most other planes, but it doesnt. it requires a pilot and most spit16 pilots are not that good.
semp
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if the plane was flying itself, it could probably outperform most other planes, but it doesnt. it requires a pilot and most spit16 pilots are not that good.
semp
makes my point really
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makes my point really
then perk the a20's. since everybody here can fly it like cobia's does.
semp
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then perk the a20's. since everybody here can fly it like cobia's does.
semp
yes, but A20's would be worthless if they flew itself :D.
As a sidenote the A20's limit is easily found and I'm not sure cobia ever shot me...but I'm sure I did shot him...long time I didn't see him.
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makes my point really
You want to perk good pilots in Spit 16s? :)
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You want to perk good pilots in Spit 16s? :)
Well someone said that planes should be unperked for noobs, wich is an interresting idea.
In case someone someone forgot i want to perk it for 1 (one) perk! That's seems fair for a plane that turns half of the planeset into death traps (read LW planes).
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Well someone said that planes should be unperked for noobs, wich is an interresting idea.
In case someone someone forgot i want to perk it for 1 (one) perk! That's seems fair for a plane that turns half of the planeset into death traps (read LW planes).
back to square one. 1 perk is a joke. let's perk the 109-k4 bunnies makes it turn better than the spit16. let's perk the a20, cobias gets some easy kills in it. let's perk the yak, it does some really fast turns, good speed and all you need is 1 hit. let's perk the c205, it will out turn anything at high speed, lots of ammo. let's perk the spit8 it out turns most of the plane set and has a longer flying time than the spit16. hell, let's perk the zero's and hurricanes too, they can out turn all the plane set. wait doesnt the la7 have a similar characteristics as the spit16? but with more cannon and it's faster? heck perk it too. and dont forget the p47-d40 with its zillion rounds of ammo. :bolt:
semp
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As a 38G driver I know the 51 guys hold all the cards unless they make a mistake. So be it. I could argue that the P51 should be perked for your same reasons. My options then are to fly a better bird, like a 51 or just shoot 51s that make mistakes.
The 38G turns better. Average pilot in the Lightning will force average pilot in the Pony to run or die pretty easily. 38s are a special case as well, because the torquelessness gives them certain advantages over all single engine jobs. So this is just plain (plane) wrong.
And the J and L sustain a better turn rate, AND climb/accell better.
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translation: i cant fight them so perk them.
semp
I'm guessing mg K/D against spits is positive this tour, as it usually is. You look, I can't be bothered.
I KNOW I've out-flown many spit drivers in lesser rides...but this is a matter of utter lack of pilot skill, usually throttle control, on their parts, not plane performance, and is thus unimportant.
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let's perk the c205, it will out turn anything at high speed
semp
Off-topic, but these continual mistaken references to some planes turning better at "high speeds" ignore the basic physics of turn performance. If a C-205 driver and a Spit Driver are pulling blackout at 300mph IAS, their turn radii and rates are exactly the same. Same for a C-205 driver and a Pony, or 109, or a Yak, or whatever. Same G loading, same speed=same rate and radius, and at "high speeds" (above corner speed for both aircraft) the blackout is the limiting factor, a factor which does not vary from plane type to plane type.
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It looks like the difference between plane performance and pilot skill is a hard concept to grasp.
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I agree with those who have said PERKING is about game usage and not about peformance numbers. I don't see that hordes of Spit XVI are making flying anything else futile.
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but Krusty the Spit IXLFe is less stable in a stall fight and is prone to snap rolling . The difference between the spit IX and IXLFe isn't that great when your fighting in the MA . Most fights will start with you where you want to be not on the runway facing each other.
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It looks like the difference between plane performance and pilot skill is a hard concept to grasp.
Clearly. However, if you look here (http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=spit16&p2=ki84), plane performance between the Spit XVI and Ki-84 is pretty similar at sea level. The Ki-84 is a bit faster on the deck and the Spit XVI accelerates slightly better. The Spit climbs better, but only marginally so (about 500 feet/minute more, which isn't a major factor in a dogfight), and they both have nearly identical turning radii with and without flaps. The Spit XVI is more lethal, but the Ki-84 has more ammo. So, basically, the two planes match up pretty well with one another.
People fly the Spit XVI because they're used to it and because of its reputation. It's a great plane. You perk that, and they're gonna hop in the Ki-84, which will still eat up the Luftwaffe rides and dominate when appearing in the same kinds of numbers the Spit XVI enjoys now. Why go there other than out of spite because the Spit XVI annoys you?
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Average pilot in the Lightning will force average pilot in the Pony to run or die pretty easily. 38s are a special case as well, because the torquelessness gives them certain advantages over all single engine jobs. So this is just plain (plane) wrong
Since the P51 can easily disengage and later re-engage so he dictates the fight. It takes a bit of trickery to make a P51 bleed enough E where he can't extend away, outside guns range, and most don't fall for it. As the old saying goes, speed dictates the fight if the P51 wants to stay out of harms way, with half a brain he will be able to do so.
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but Krusty the Spit IXLFe is less stable in a stall fight and is prone to snap rolling . The difference between the spit IX and IXLFe isn't that great when your fighting in the MA .
I couldn't disagree MORE.
I've run across many spit16s and many spit9s in this game. You can fight a spit9. It doesn't have the horsepower to go up as much in verticals and the instantaneous turn and roll is not nearly as sharp as the spit16. The spit16 doesn't drop wings much at all IMO. Calling it prone to "snap stalling" is like saying the A6M2 is prone to snap stalling. I'm sure you CAN do it... but the effort it would take would be a clinical exercise rather than a real detriment in combat.
Anybody that comes up against a spit9 has a chance in the MA. You run into a spit16 and it holds ALL the cards. Its' performance is that good.
EDIT: P.S. Levi nobody's going to replace the spit16 with a Ki84. 500fpm advantage is significant, but the spit16 ranges from 750 to 1000fpm better than the Ki84 at most alts. At least according to the quasi-accurate charts. They also wouldn't replace the spit16 with a plane that can't dive worth a damn.
No, what they'd replace it with is the 99% identical Spit8 model. You can't talk about perking the spit16 based on performance without also perking the spit8. They are the same plane. They have the same capabilities. One just rolls better, that's all.
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EDIT: P.S. Levi nobody's going to replace the spit16 with a Ki84. 500fpm advantage is significant, but the spit16 ranges from 750 to 1000fpm better than the Ki84 at most alts. At least according to the quasi-accurate charts. They also wouldn't replace the spit16 with a plane that can't dive worth a damn.
Sure they would. The Ki-84 matches up very well with a Spit XVI on pretty much every metric. You're overstating the importance of feet/minute climb rate, which doesn't factor significantly into a dogfight or multi-target engagement. The stiffness at high speed and in dives is definitely a negative.
I agree that the Spit VIII would make an adequate replacement, but I laugh at the idea that it should also be perked because of this. I mean... really? Where do you stop? Something will always be "best." These threads read as ludicrously self-serving.
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You may be misreading my comment. I was saying you can not suggest perking the spit16 without also suggesting the same for the spit8. I was not (in this thread) advocating the perkage itself, simply saying you cannot ignore this other plane in the debate.
I agree there will always be a best unperked ride... but there are some rides that excel above and beyond all competition, as-modeled-in-game. Those rides are worthy of perkage. Does that shift the folks looking for the "best unperked ride" to other planes? Yes.... but that doesn't matter.
As an aside: As capable as the Ki is, and I love that plane a lot more than most, it doesn't compare to a spit16. It has some major handling problems and flaws. The elevator authority is pretty bad. It really has to rush into the fight then dump all speed to get to best manuvering speed. The spit can manuver quite well at much higher speeds, has almost no stalling vices, has much better ability to pull the stick back into one's belly and turn all day long. While I agree some of the specs are close, the overall package isn't as conducive to newbies or 2-weekers or folks looking for an easy ride. Edit: With 1000fpm advantage, yes it does come into play in MA environs. You dictate your position in a fight by using that climb rate to get above anything and everything in a fight and roll in for the attack. Even if it just means the enemy tried to zoom, and stalled out but you were still going strong, you still used that to your advantage just by doing something better than he could.
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I agree with those who have said PERKING is about game usage and not about peformance numbers. I don't see that hordes of Spit XVI are making flying anything else futile.
well said vinkman.
krusty/bnz the reason some planes are perked is to discourage most people to use them as they are so uber they would unbalance the arena. nobody wants to see zillions of 262's or 163's flying around that's why they're perked.
same for the spit16 most people that up them cant fly them but they stick around to fight. so you want to discourage people that cant fly spit16 from using them to stick around and fight. I dont think so.
I'm guessing mg K/D against spits is positive this tour, as it usually is. You look, I can't be bothered.
I KNOW I've out-flown many spit drivers in lesser rides...but this is a matter of utter lack of pilot skill, usually throttle control, on their parts, not plane performance, and is thus unimportant.
k/d ration means absolutely nothing. since by itself it doesnt prove whether you killed 1v1 or you just picked all the spits. there's guys that have posted an impressive k/d in a goon. instead of the k/d ratio I use the more reliable "i seen you fly and you're awesome regardless of the easy-to-manipulate-k/d" meter that I have.
semp
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you can quite easily snap roll a spit IXLFe if you are in a tight turn fight and throttle up to fast and use to much rudder to alter your aim or if you try to roll to quickly using rudder it just spins very easily .
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spitXVI/VIII vs Ki84 is a good matchup in the DA, but the spit is superior in climbs and high speed handling. And it doesn't tear it wings as easily. As Krusty said the KI needs to slow the fight a lot to be able to deploy its flaps, witch it depends a lot on to obtain to obtain its best turns.
I believe the XVI's pilots would report to the VIII and the Ki. More Ki's can't hurt, Japanese planes need more representation in the MA IMO.
Of course I created this thread for my own agenda, I don't claim to be totally objective.
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Noir,
Krusty's point was that if you perk the XVI, you have to also perk the VIII.
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The 38G turns better. Average pilot in the Lightning will force average pilot in the Pony to run or die pretty easily. 38s are a special case as well, because the torquelessness gives them certain advantages over all single engine jobs. So this is just plain (plane) wrong.
And the J and L sustain a better turn rate, AND climb/accell better.
If the 51 fights the 38s fight you are right. But the 51 with its speed controls the fight if it is flown right. You bet I hope the 51 driver tries to turn fight my 38G. That's not the plane's mistake, that's the 51 driver.
The OP doesn't like Spit 16s. He's trying to make the case it's impacting the game negatively. It's not. Apparently he wasn't around for the LA7 years, or the F4U1C days.
OK perk the 16 and they all get in 8s. Doesn't seem particularly fair to the RAF fans or Spitfire fans.
Gee, some of the best sticks in the game fly 109K4s. It has all kinds of advantages. Let's perk it cause it's not fair. Make em all fly 109G6s.
How bout we let folks fly what they want, and if they clobber us in our bird of choice I guess well just have to re-up again. Good thing we don't really die.
In the end, I guess I'm just tired of Spit whiners. It's gone on forever. It's one of the most famous airplanes from WW2 if not THE most famous. I'm glad HTC has taken the time to model the different versions they have. I'm glad they gave us a clipped wing version. They did that in WW2. It was to counter the roll rate of the 190. To take that away because it worked, and bothers a game player would be silly too. And that we have the Spit VIII with the earlier gun package and full span wings, gives the Spit drivers a choice between the LFVIII and the LFXVIe. Same engine performance. The VIII a bit heavier due to more fuel and retracting tail wheel but thats it. And if folks want to fight a bit higher, the Spit FIX we have gives us that type of Spit too.
Bottom line both in game and historically, the Spitfire was a well designed, pilot friendly aircraft, in particular the Merlin versions. It did make good pilots better. Asking HTC to model that out of the game, just to appease whiners about it's performance, is just silly.
Kudos to the guys who learn more difficult birds. I'm glad they take the challenge. Mandating that to players is wrong however.
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Noir,
Krusty's point was that if you perk the XVI, you have to also perk the VIII.
oops thanks for clarification. I don't agree on that, the spitVIII is limited on the roll axis like the other spits, and that is an exploitable weakness.
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Apparently he wasn't around for the LA7 years, or the F4U1C days.
Actually I was there for the F4U1C, but I couldn't fly fighters for **** back then.
I'm shedding a tear, that was the good ol' times :old:
Tour 20 Statistics for NewNuke
Fighter Bomber Attack Veh./Boat Total
Kills 14 12 1 13 40
Assists 4 2 0 4 10
Sorties 56 89 3 9 157
Landed 2 11 0 1 14
Bailed 0 0 0 0 0
Ditched 2 11 0 4 17
Captured 2 2 0 1 5
Deaths 50 64 3 3 120
Discos 0 1 0 0 1
Time hh:mm:ss 04:45:58 16:39:55 00:29:02 02:15:48 24:10:43
Rank 1417 462 605 109 496
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Actually I was there for the F4U1C, but I couldn't fly fighters for **** back then.
That was definitely a plane worthy of perking. Didn't the F4U-1C have something like half the MA kills for a couple of tours? It was pretty much the only plane you'd see flying around back then. Torque was the master of the F4U-1C if I recall correctly.
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I do remember watching mega hordes of F4U1C's from the tower. Didn't they implement the perking system especially for that plane at first?
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PERK THE Focke-Wulf 190 A-5!!! it's uber, i swear.
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That was definitely a plane worthy of perking. Didn't the F4U-1C have something like half the MA kills for a couple of tours? It was pretty much the only plane you'd see flying around back then. Torque was the master of the F4U-1C if I recall correctly.
I do remember watching mega hordes of F4U1C's from the tower. Didn't they implement the perking system especially for that plane at first?
My memory may be a bit fuzzy, but I believe the statistic was closer to 20% of all MA kills, I don't believe it was the first perk plane though, the perk was added later and I think we already had planes like the Tempest and Spit XIV in game before that.
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I wish we had a button 'report to lusche' for when we need stats :)
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My memory may be a bit fuzzy, but I believe the statistic was closer to 20% of all MA kills, I don't believe it was the first perk plane though, the perk was added later and I think we already had planes like the Tempest and Spit XIV in game before that.
I don't recall right off, though I'm fairly certain the Tempest and Spit XIV came along later. I recall moving from the F4U-1C (which everyone flew) into the P-47 and later the Typhoon when it was first introduced. I'm not sure when perks came along - probably when they introduced the 262 - but the F4U-1C was one of the earliest planes on the perk list.
I honestly don't recall the percentage of arena kills, though it is important to remember that there were way fewer planes to choose from back then as well. It wouldn't have been outside the realm of reason to have one utterly dominant plane rack up a ridiculous percentage of kills. Certainly is was more than any unperked plane today, including the P-51 and the Spit XVI.
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I don't recall right off, though I'm fairly certain the Tempest and Spit XIV came along later. I recall moving from the F4U-1C (which everyone flew) into the P-47 and later the Typhoon when it was first introduced. I'm not sure when perks came along - probably when they introduced the 262 - but the F4U-1C was one of the earliest planes on the perk list.
I honestly don't recall the percentage of arena kills, though it is important to remember that there were way fewer planes to choose from back then as well. It wouldn't have been outside the realm of reason to have one utterly dominant plane rack up a ridiculous percentage of kills. Certainly is was more than any unperked plane today, including the P-51 and the Spit XVI.
We got the Tempest and the Spitfire Mk XIV after the F4U-1C. I agree that back when the plane list was a lot smaller that the impact the of the unbalance created by the F4U-1C was much greater and with our current plane list it wouldn't be the unbalancing factor it was back then. Which is why I feel that the F4U-1C really no longer needs to be perked.
ack-ack
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QFT :aok
We got the Tempest and the Spitfire Mk XIV after the F4U-1C. I agree that back when the plane list was a lot smaller that the impact the of the unbalance created by the F4U-1C was much greater and with our current plane list it wouldn't be the unbalancing factor it was back then. Which is why I feel that the F4U-1C really no longer needs to be perked.
ack-ack
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I couldn't disagree MORE.
I've run across many spit16s and many spit9s in this game. You can fight a spit9. It doesn't have the horsepower to go up as much in verticals and the instantaneous turn and roll is not nearly as sharp as the spit16. The spit16 doesn't drop wings much at all IMO. Calling it prone to "snap stalling" is like saying the A6M2 is prone to snap stalling. I'm sure you CAN do it... but the effort it would take would be a clinical exercise rather than a real detriment in combat.
Anybody that comes up against a spit9 has a chance in the MA. You run into a spit16 and it holds ALL the cards. Its' performance is that good.
I wouldn't call it a snap stall but the XVI does have a tendancy to wobble in an extremely low speed fight. Enough to make the difference in the outcome of the fight as the pilot has to level momentarily to catch it. That danger zone is right around 85 mph and I've been there too many times to count.
You also don't give the Spit IX enough credit. I started in the IX, switched to the XVI when it was introduced and have largely moved back to the IX. I see no appreciable difference in most fights other than added stability and a slightly less effective gun package. The verticle performance is still good enough to keep a fight with a XVI on nearly equal terms and the IX is actually a much smoother (easier) handling plane.
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Since the P51 can easily disengage and later re-engage so he dictates the fight. It takes a bit of trickery to make a P51 bleed enough E where he can't extend away, outside guns range, and most don't fall for it. As the old saying goes, speed dictates the fight if the P51 wants to stay out of harms way, with half a brain he will be able to do so.
"Most don't fall for it" means most P-51s one pass haul bellybutton at 500 mph and are never a credible threat. If the Pony actually engages in such a manner he has a shot, the P-38 has quite a good chance of turning the tables.
People argue that speed is everything in this game, but the Pony is not faster than a D9, K4, La7, or Typhoon, and the 2nd most popular plane is the only moderately fast SpitXVI
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I suspect the main reasons the P-51D is more popular than the Spitfire Mk XVI are:
1) It is the P-51D Mustang.
2) It can carry two 1,000lb bombs and six rockets.
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I suspect the main reasons the P-51D is more popular than the Spitfire Mk XVI are:
1) It is the P-51D Mustang.
2) It can carry two 1,000lb bombs and six rockets.
I think the speed also has a lot to do with it.
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I think the speed also has a lot to do with it.
It plays a part, yes. I'd say it is likely #3, but fairly far down as somebody wanting speed before all else will pick something faster like an Fw190D-9, Bf109K-4, Typhoon Mk Ib or La-7. Fuel endurance will also be a reason for some.
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It plays a part, yes. I'd say it is likely #3, but fairly far down as somebody wanting speed before all else will pick something faster like an Fw190D-9, Bf109K-4, Typhoon Mk Ib or La-7. Fuel endurance will also be a reason for some.
Agreed, I'd put the speed at #3.
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I wouldn't call it a snap stall but the XVI does have a tendancy to wobble in an extremely low speed fight. Enough to make the difference in the outcome of the fight as the pilot has to level momentarily to catch it. That danger zone is right around 85 mph and I've been there too many times to count.
You also don't give the Spit IX enough credit. I started in the IX, switched to the XVI when it was introduced and have largely moved back to the IX. I see no appreciable difference in most fights other than added stability and a slightly less effective gun package. The verticle performance is still good enough to keep a fight with a XVI on nearly equal terms and the IX is actually a much smoother (easier) handling plane.
Not griping at you btw :)
The IX has an engine rated for higher alts. As has been said too many times to count. The Spit XVI is nothing more then an LFIXe with clipped wings. it's engine is rated for better performance at lower alt.
It's the same airframe!
How bout HTC gives us a full span LFIXe to go with the FIX? :)
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MY reasons to fly the P51
#1 speed/manoeuvrability combination (not top speed but conservation)
#2 trigger time
#3 views
#4 fuel
But I agree the reason the P51 sees more use is the 1K bombs.
As for the spit9 VS spit16 debate, the spit9 will win in a horizontal plane turn fight, but will face trouble if the fight stretches on the vertical plane. In my experience, the difference in stall speeds is so small, that even at 15k that it can't be relied on.
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"Most don't fall for it" means most P-51s one pass haul bellybutton at 500 mph and are never a credible threat. If the Pony actually engages in such a manner he has a shot, the P-38 has quite a good chance of turning the tables.
The only time a P-38 would have a chance against a P-51D of equal skill is if the P-51D pilot screws up and loses patience and tries to force the kill or the P-38 driver had an energy and altitude advantage.
If the P-51D driver keeps his cool, he can dictate the fight at his whim and there is nothing the P-38 driver can do about it other than hope to Jeebus the Mustang driver makes a mistake. Lucky for me, I've only run across one Pony driver that had the patience of a saint and thankfully he doesn't play anymore.
ack-ack
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patience of a saint
ack-ack
=No boredom gene.
As you yourself have pointed out on occasions, the P-51 has no advantages over the 38J/L other than top speed in level flight and dives. All this means is that maybe, if it doesn't get too slow while fighting and get overhauled by the 38s superior acceleration and long-reaching firepower, the 51 can run away.
Personally, I think a 38 with enough smash to close on a 51 is in a better position than a 51 with an E advantage over a 38, although obviously it can go either way. I've not flown the 38 as much as you have, but I have flown it quite abit. It just overmatches the 51 in competent hands (never mind "equal skill") and can even take on the 109s and Ki-84s that eat up a Pony quite nicely.
Sure, the Pony can leave a bad situation easier and can an extending bandit easier, but other advantages count in the MA. Like I say, last time I checked the arena the very fastest planes aren't the most popular in there. In the real world, the need for energy and maneuver performance as opposed to top speed uber alles was realized decades ago and led directly to the F-15 and F-16.
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MY reasons to fly the P51
#1 speed/manoeuvrability combination (not top speed but conservation)
#2 trigger time
#3 views
#4 fuel
But I agree the reason the P51 sees more use is the 1K bombs.
As for the spit9 VS spit16 debate, the spit9 will win in a horizontal plane turn fight, but will face trouble if the fight stretches on the vertical plane. In my experience, the difference in stall speeds is so small, that even at 15k that it can't be relied on.
What part of the Spit IX is in FIX with an engine rated for higher alts, and the Spitfire XVI is a Spitfire LFIXe with an engine rated for lower alts isn't making sense? Take the fight higher and the LFIXe won't have that advantage and the Spit FIX will. Again, the LFIX aka XVI has an engine that's better suited for the fighting alts in AH. The Spit VIII also has that engine. The airframe of the Spit IX/XVI is the same, only the engine is different.
So basically the complaint is the clipped wings and increased roll rate.
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Take the fight higher and the LFIXe won't have that advantage and the Spit FIX will. Again, the LFIX aka XVI has an engine that's better suited for the fighting alts in AH.
Actually... I used to think that too. However in AH the higher boost of the Spit8/16 actually makes up the difference of the higher FTH on the spit9. The spit9 might be about 20mph faster at 26k, and the spit8/16 pair may begin to lose power at 21k, but they had more power to drop off and above 26k the speed difference appears to be more like 15mph tops.
So even at high alts the spit8/16 are still quite competitive. I was rather surprised when I found that out. There is no reason to favor the spit9 (the in-game one) when you have the option of either 8/16, even when your goal is high alt flying.
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I'm going to quote Supermarine Chief Test Pilot Jeffrey Quill;
"Then at some indefinate time in 1942, there seemed to be a change of tactical philosophy on both sides. It was rather as if, by some sort of tacit mutual consent between enemies, it was realized that the band between 30,000 and 40,000 feet was silly place to have an air battle, and the fighting tended to drop down to the more practical regions, roughly between 15,000 and 25,000 feet. I remember how, at the time, this trend interested me very much indeed. It was clearly reflected in the LF Mk IX (Merlin 66) with the engine performance adjusted to the reduced height band. It was also reflected in the fact that, by removing the wing tips of the Spitfire, an improvement in lateral control could be achieved, but because it thereby increased the wing loading and the span loading of the wing, an aerodynamic penalty was incurred at high altitude. Such a proposition would have been unthinkable in 1940/41, but in 1942/43 the idea was enthusiastically adopted by some squadrons of 11 Group, and the 'clipped wing' Spitfire became a common sight in the sky."
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I think the pros and cons have been discussed to death, which is where the thread should be. Until l next month or two when it gets reposted.
semp
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From in-game experience the IX has a deadband in the engine from about 16.5K to about 19.5K just as the XIV does. Boost drops considerably while in that alt range. Over or under that you're golden. The XIII and XVI however don't experience such a dramatic deadband and if that range is the fighting alt then I prefer the XVI (or the XIII) even though it's rated for lower alts.
The fact is that fighting alts in-game rarely exceed that so the IX and XIV don't get their due. That said if you keep them below that lower range they are both still formidable fighters.
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Nuke Joyeux anniversaire à partir de tous les clochards ivres downunder
Happy Birthday mate
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Nuke Joyeux anniversaire à partir de tous les clochards ivres downunder
Happy Birthday mate
Thanks Phatzo ^^ 30 already :cry
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Thanks Phatzo ^^ 30 already :cry
LOL, when I was typing it into google translate I originally wanted to say "from all the pissheads" and it wouldn't recognize it and said, did you mean "from all the potheads"
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les clochards ivres
means "the drunk beggars"
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close enough "drunken bums"