Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: alpini13 on October 03, 2011, 12:15:50 PM
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I have seen alot of posts on here concerning the weight and performance of the FW-190A8. looking over my research resources i have noticed that in many instances the original test reports have varying weights depending on fuel,armament and option loadout...and that the weights are within the limits that aceshigh currently have...but there is additional information that both supports the notion that the aceshigh flight model is a littoff and why there is a dispute in the first place......this concerns the original tests sheets from fockewulf. they show that from january 1944 they were performing tests on the fw-190a8 with emergency boost set at 1.65ata instead of normal 1.42ata...and that they snet a memorandum stating that from july 1944 all fw-190a8 aircraft would be delivered with the higher emergency boostsetting by simply taking the current machine and bypassing the boost valve and resetting it to run at a max of 1.65ata for a maximum of 10 minutes.the result is the fw-190a8 performs better in both speed and climb rate. SPEED 13.6mph faster at sea level and 15.5mph faster at hight altitudes with max speed at high altitude being about 4mph faster....this would be with the current weight and aircrafdt we have in aceshigh2. CLIMBRATE would be increases at low altitude to 3600ft/min and 5000ft only a few hundred ft/min more. this could explain why people say the 190a8 modeling is off and that it should be faster and hitech not doing it due to the data they can find...all original document are now available online,simply search fw-190a8 performance and the link should appear. these are the original test data sheets and not some made upnopinion. wish they fix the 190a8 in next update
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Paragraphs are your friend.
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nvrmind
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i've been seeing people claim 900 pounds here and there, and i was corrected recently in another discussion. according to the english translated technical publication i have (supposedly issued in july 1944), the ah model is heavier than the manual says it should be.
the e6b shows the 109a8 with full standard load 2x 13mm mgs and 4x 20mm cannons with 100% fuel on the ground at 9682lbs. according to the publication, the full loaded weight should be 9452lbs minus 55lbs for winter equipment which should bring it to 9397lbs. a difference of 285lbs.
here is the specific page with the weights
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/405468/AH%20Stuff/190a8.pdf (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/405468/AH%20Stuff/190a8.pdf)
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nvrmind
Ditto
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I'm not sure about it's speed characteristics, but you can know for sure that it's very incorrect. P47 pilots would claim that the Thunderbolt's only advantage over the FW 190 was it's roll rate. Isn't that the exact opposite of AH2? I'd take any of the Thunderbolts vs any of the FW's anytime in AH2, but in life that was near suicide. The fact of the matter is, the FW190 could out-turn the P47. It was the 190's fight to lose anywhere but on the deck and then it was 50:50.
I love the Jug, I feel I should say that, but I like the 190 too and I don't comprehend why to make the airplane inaccurate to a point where it's the exact opposite of what the real pilots claim. Is this a simulator or an arcade game?
Having said that, it should be known that the 109 is also inaccurate. Hans-Joachim Marseille(who Gunther Rall would call 'the best') would achieve kills with high deflection shooting with the 109's flaps. And no, not at 180 MPH true, more about 300.
It's already a fine aircraft, but it's sadly incorrect.
Wanna see what the planes were really like? What Buff hunting was really like and I think, if this is the right video, how maneuverable the 190 was, you can see a 190 A7 out-turning a p47 at the end and giving it a solid burst. The Jug's toughness is under-modeled in AH2, particularly it's R2800 engine. Also, if this is the right video, you get to see a p38 turn(who Robin Olds would say, you get a decent pilot in it, you can whip anything down low).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZOb0vx9y9I
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i suddenly see a (http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSfRxLjDTmyGfr61EzBP1ojj48xqNCYcy_KZImQwwoKJICVUM7UYvlSVgry)
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This seems to come up every 6 months or so. Do some searches, otherwise, this'll turn into another epic 190 thread. Someone have one of those pics of a guy kicking a dead horse???
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... paging Mr Gaston ... paging Mr Gaston ... Mr Gaston to the wishlist forum please...
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I just wish HTC would give the 190F-8 the ability to mount for 4/50kg bombs under the fuselage. Then, it would have 8/50kg bombs. It was an ordnance load-out widely used on the Ost front.
HTC recently updated the Typhoon with the 4 rockets/dual DT's load-out, I'd hope they'd consider the addition of a new optionto the 190F-8 as well.
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... paging Mr Gaston ... paging Mr Gaston ... Mr Gaston to the wishlist forum please...
:rofl
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keep the posts coming guys. i am still wondering if it is a weight issue or a performance of engine issue...or both....either way,it would be nice to see a more correct 190-a8 model
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I have seen alot of posts on here concerning the weight and performance of the FW-190A8. looking over my research resources i have noticed that in many instances the original test reports have varying weights depending on fuel,armament and option loadout...and that the weights are within the limits that aceshigh currently have...but there is additional information that both supports the notion that the aceshigh flight model is a littoff and why there is a dispute in the first place......this concerns the original tests sheets from fockewulf. they show that from january 1944 they were performing tests on the fw-190a8 with emergency boost set at 1.65ata instead of normal 1.42ata...and that they snet a memorandum stating that from july 1944 all fw-190a8 aircraft would be delivered with the higher emergency boostsetting by simply taking the current machine and bypassing the boost valve and resetting it to run at a max of 1.65ata for a maximum of 10 minutes.the result is the fw-190a8 performs better in both speed and climb rate. SPEED 13.6mph faster at sea level and 15.5mph faster at hight altitudes with max speed at high altitude being about 4mph faster....this would be with the current weight and aircrafdt we have in aceshigh2. CLIMBRATE would be increases at low altitude to 3600ft/min and 5000ft only a few hundred ft/min more. this could explain why people say the 190a8 modeling is off and that it should be faster and hitech not doing it due to the data they can find...all original document are now available online,simply search fw-190a8 performance and the link should appear. these are the original test data sheets and not some made upnopinion. wish they fix the 190a8 in next update
tldr
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keep the posts coming guys. i am still wondering if it is a weight issue or a performance of engine issue...or both....either way,it would be nice to see a more correct 190-a8 model
You're assuming its incorrect. Baumer, I believe, was the first person to bring this specific issue up, and it was like, over two years ago. That means HTC has had plenty of time to review it and correct the aircraft's weight, had they thought the weight difference was credible. That being said, if its wrong, it should be changed, and HTC historically has changed aircraft when they found it necessary to do so; that they haven't yet on the FW-190A8 indicates to me that they don't feel a change is justified. For whatever its worth...
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These threads will keep appearing until there is a utube video of Hitech sayng that the FW190 is correctly modeled in AH. :devil
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nvrmind
bunnies a8 is the lightest of them all, he only weights like 2 lbs. the rest of you should get on a diet so the airplanes weight less.
semp
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I think we can now draw a safe conclusion for this thread. Due to the information that has been contributed to this thread, we can draw the following conclusions:
1. FW190A8s are an overweight pig that is good for nothing but flying straight and HOing.
2. The FW190A8 should be able to turn and burn with the rest of the planeset, despite having an ugly wing planeform and wing load.
3. All Luftwaffe planes are severely undermodeled because HTC hates the Luftwaffe and the community boasts a heavy bias towards Allied aircraft therefore all Allied planes are automatically better (despite the fact that the Luftwaffe planeset already has the only jets, largest gun loadouts of any plane, fastest mid/low alt bomber, best 109 for climb rates, and just about every other superior classification out there)
These conclusions leave but one glaring issue left to be discussed. If the current German planeset has the best of the best of aircraft available, then is it really the people who fly Luftwaffe planes that suck?
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here is the specific page with the weights
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/405468/AH%20Stuff/190a8.pdf (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/405468/AH%20Stuff/190a8.pdf)
Note the last sentence of the document.
AH A-8 has always had this auxiliary fuel tank.
640 litres, 169 US gallons of internal fuel.
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I think we can now draw a safe conclusion for this thread. Due to the information that has been contributed to this thread, we can draw the following conclusions:
1. FW190A8s are an overweight pig that is good for nothing but flying straight and HOing.
2. The FW190A8 should be able to turn and burn with the rest of the planeset, despite having an ugly wing planeform and wing load.
3. All Luftwaffe planes are severely undermodeled because HTC hates the Luftwaffe and the community boasts a heavy bias towards Allied aircraft therefore all Allied planes are automatically better (despite the fact that the Luftwaffe planeset already has the only jets, largest gun loadouts of any plane, fastest mid/low alt bomber, best 109 for climb rates, and just about every other superior classification out there)
These conclusions leave but one glaring issue left to be discussed. If the current German planeset has the best of the best of aircraft available, then is it really the people who fly Luftwaffe planes that suck?
lol
interseting, why are the arenas full of f4us, spit16s, runstangs? why i cant see a g6?
lol
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Note the last sentence of the document.
AH A-8 has always had this auxiliary fuel tank.
That seems to explain all but 25 lbs of difference based on that document... What does that mean?
lol
interseting, why are the arenas full of f4us, spit16s, runstangs? why i cant see a g6?
lol
Because the F4U is the best looking plane in the game and one of the more versatile (hoverflaps FTW), spixteens are the easiest plane to be competitive with, and the pony is one of the easier planes to survive with in a BnZ profile. The 109s do very well in the role they were built for. They are pretty much the best choice to scramble and get to altitude to engage. Their legs are short compared to a lot of the planeset, which makes them less popular. That and a relatively anemic gun package make a lot of the allied rides a better choice for most.
Wiley.
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according to the documents at this link http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/fw190a8.html after july 1944 all fw190a8 would be able to do 359mph at sea level and 405mph at max speed alt,with better climbrate. and of course all fw190-a8 in the field would be modified to same spec as they were serviced....this should not be ignored,as hitech made a similiar mod to the f4u-1 corsair seperating the early and late production run with the different specs that they had.
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according to the documents at this link http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/fw190a8.html after july 1944 all fw190a8 would be able to do 359mph at sea level and 405mph at max speed alt,with better climbrate. and of course all fw190-a8 in the field would be modified to same spec as they were serviced....this should not be ignored,as hitech made a similiar mod to the f4u-1 corsair seperating the early and late production run with the different specs that they had.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/images/b/b9/190a8spd.jpg)
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You must be reading that on some other boards..........
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lol
interseting, why are the arenas full of f4us, spit16s, runstangs? why i cant see a g6?
lol
Quite simple actually. You will have people that will fly Luftwaffe planes from time to time. They realize that when flying these planes, they always lose. This could either be because the pilots themselves suck, or the Luftwaffe planes suck (that is to be debated by the Luftwhiners). Once they reach this realization, they will either graduate to being a Luftwhiner (and complain because HTC is biased and hates German planes), or they will move onto the Allied aircraft where the heavily biased players choose to fly with a lot of success. The Luftwaffe planes will continue to be lesser flown simply because all Luftwaffe planes are nerfed to oblivion and cannot compete with the elite, technologically advanced Allied aircraft.
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if you take the time to learn the luft and japanese and italian planes, they are very good indeed,perdweeb,debrody,sukov all are excellent in luft planes
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...hitech made a similiar mod to the f4u-1 corsair seperating the early and late production run with the different specs that they had.
Two different models of the F4U... The -1 and -1A. The thing to remember is that even though the Navy tended to refer to the 1A as a "1", it was a different variant of the aircraft.
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Plazus,
I fly a mighty luft ride, you know. Well, every time i jump into an other ride, i feel unbeatable. Yes, including the k4 too. But generally speaking the allied rides a far more easy to fly.
Why? up an f4u1a, climb to 15k. Your oponent wont be able to run away since you can do 370 on the deck. He wont be able to break and overshoot you, cuz of the wonder-flaps. Plus you can get him from 6-800 out with the 50s.
Not to talk about the spit16 has the best speed/turn ration in the game (by far). Yes, you cen be successful in the k4 or with the dora, if youre a timid tard and will never turn with your opponent. Thats a stupid, boring game and i try to avoid it.
Luft guys have the 262, allied dudes got the tempest. Whats the difference between them? Literally not so much, even more, i found the tempy easyer to fly even tho it requires more concentration and SA.
You wanted to express an opinion. I respect that, just plz dont be an allied Schlowy4. That was my point. Both sides have their ups and downs, be realistic plz.
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The 109 is a fantastic airplane the way it currently is. My point was it isn't right. Despite the allied favor, I'll take my 109G6 vs ANY 51D driver in the game. I'm sure there are others that will too.
The 190 on the other hand is hindered. Watch that youtube video, most of you can just watch it and see, when it's turning with the p47. That sort of move is just not gonna happen in AH2, not without spinning out completely and losing position. It's funny too, of all the 190's that I can see matching that manuever, a flat turn INSIDE a 47 to get guns at beyond 45 degrees is the 190 F.
I don't understand why you wouldn't want a variety of excellent planes and not favor any one side so inaccurately. The M4 is a great example. I watched one take a 85mm round at 1600 yards. Do some research on that, watch videos of what the allied tankers would say. You're dead meat, your tank is burning in seconds. It's certainly allied favored and that completely baffles me. The Ki-84 is another that probably isn't modeled right, despite that, it's still a great plane. I just want more, I suppose, more of everything. Good planes all around. I especially want to see the Ki-84-Ic. Who can resist 2x30mm and 1x45mm for killing b29's?
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Quite simple actually. You will have people that will fly Luftwaffe planes from time to time. They realize that when flying these planes, they always lose. This could either be because the pilots themselves suck, or the Luftwaffe planes suck (that is to be debated by the Luftwhiners). Once they reach this realization, they will either graduate to being a Luftwhiner (and complain because HTC is biased and hates German planes), or they will move onto the Allied aircraft where the heavily biased players choose to fly with a lot of success. The Luftwaffe planes will continue to be lesser flown simply because all Luftwaffe planes are nerfed to oblivion and cannot compete with the elite, technologically advanced Allied aircraft.
The fundamental flaw with this argument is that most players don't have success period. Luche had a post awhile ago that stated the avg k/d was .3 or something. Basically you're an allied whiner, whining about 'luft whiners'....
Would you like some 'boxed' whine with your American Cheese?
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The 190 on the other hand is hindered. Watch that youtube video, most of you can just watch it and see, when it's turning with the p47.
I'm not asking this rhetorically, but as a serious question.
What about that video indicates that the P47 is being flown to the edge of its flight envelope?
Wiley.
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I'm not asking this rhetorically, but as a serious question.
What about that video indicates that the P47 is being flown to the edge of its flight envelope?
Wiley.
Im sure if your life depends on it, HECK, yes, you pull the stick as you can.
Otherwise, if AH is modelled totally accurate, that was a fight between an amazing low jug pilot vs an amazing ace 190 stick.
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I'm not asking this rhetorically, but as a serious question.
What about that video indicates that the P47 is being flown to the edge of its flight envelope?
Wiley.
Does anyone know if that German company is still making replica Fw-190 A8s? I know a few people on the BBS and HiTech has flown the p51, I wonder if any have flown the A8 (even if its a replica).
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Im sure if your life depends on it, HECK, yes, you pull the stick as you can.
Otherwise, if AH is modelled totally accurate, that was a fight between an amazing low jug pilot vs an amazing ace 190 stick.
...Since when is pulling the stick the hardest you possibly can the best way to get the best performance out of your plane? What were their speeds during this altercation?
I've seen people throw around the idea there's an 800 or 900 pound discrepancy with the A8. Gyrene's numbers from the operating handbook posted looks to be about 25 pounds off what's in the game.
Can someone point me at the thread on the BBS that outlines the issue with the A8 in concrete terms (and by that I don't mean 'this anecdote talks about a guy outturning a P47/P51/whatever) and illustrates where and by how much the AH modeling is off? I've been searching for it every now and again for a while, and haven't been able to turn up anything other than 'they used the wrong documentation.' But I've never seen the 'right' documentation shown.
Wiley.
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The Ki-84 is another that probably isn't modeled right,
How so?
I just want more, I suppose, more of everything. Good planes all around. I especially want to see the Ki-84-Ic. Who can resist 2x30mm and 1x45mm for killing b29's?
It is generally accepted that the one you refer to as the Ic, the Ki-84 Hei, was only ever armed with a single Ho-115 30-mm in the right wing and nothing in the left but since the weapon was experimental it may have often flown with the weapon removed altogether & the total number of this type might number as few as 3 units.
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Wiley, both of those planes were turning near the envelope. Could you see the jugs flaps coming out? I couldnt. It was a downhill, so the 190 couldnt open them either.
Without flaps, the jug wins, bit only with a very small difference. But that poor pilot wasnt trained well enough to use his flaps in the downhill sustained turn, yet the 190 pilot was able to keep up with him and score the victory.
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Wiley, both of those planes were turning near the envelope.
Again, based on what? The fact that it was life or death? Who maintains a constant rate flat turn by choice with something creeping onto their tail?
Could you see the jugs flaps coming out? I couldnt. It was a downhill, so the 190 couldnt open them either.
Without flaps, the jug wins, bit only with a very small difference. But that poor pilot wasnt trained well enough to use his flaps in the downhill sustained turn, yet the 190 pilot was able to keep up with him and score the victory.
I'd expect the planes were traveling at a speed that favored the 190 by the look of that footage. I also don't believe flaps usage in combat was even close to being as widespread in real life as it is in AH. From that footage, I don't believe we could say one way or another if he had a notch of flaps in.
I just don't think a few seconds of video out of context with no info about alt, speed, plane condition or pilot has much meaning when it comes to comparing flight models.
Wiley.
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arguing for flight model changes based on a few seconds of guncam footage ... :rofl
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Again, based on what? The fact that it was life or death? Who maintains a constant rate flat turn by choice with something creeping onto their tail?
I'd expect the planes were traveling at a speed that favored the 190 by the look of that footage. I also don't believe flaps usage in combat was even close to being as widespread in real life as it is in AH. From that footage, I don't believe we could say one way or another if he had a notch of flaps in.
I just don't think a few seconds of video out of context with no info about alt, speed, plane condition or pilot has much meaning when it comes to comparing flight models.
Wiley.
Dont you get it?
-Flaps WERENT used in that fight.
-in my sustained testes, the jug was beating the 190a8, but only with a small difference
-according to doc gonzo's site, they have a comparable turn radius without flaps
-in a sustained turnfight, its easy: pull the stick as you can. The differences become very small between the pilots.
-in that film, the 190 very slowly, but could get inside of the jug
Whats the conclusion?? If AH is modelling theese planes correctly, that was a poor jug pilot compared to the 190 one. Ergo im not arguing about anything, its you fighting left n right. I never said anything about the flight modelling... i cant get your point
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I cant quite make out the fuel gauge readings of both aircraft from that guncam. must just be my eyesight :headscratch:
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Dont you get it?
-Flaps WERENT used in that fight.
-in my sustained testes, the jug was beating the 190a8, but only with a small difference
-according to doc gonzo's site, they have a comparable turn radius without flaps
-in a sustained turnfight, its easy: pull the stick as you can. The differences become very small between the pilots.
-in that film, the 190 very slowly, but could get inside of the jug
Whats the conclusion?? If AH is modelling theese planes correctly, that was a poor jug pilot compared to the 190 one. Ergo im not arguing about anything, its you fighting left n right. I never said anything about the flight modelling... i cant get your point
The flight modeling comment was directed mainly at 4brkfast's attempt at a point, that due to this video AH has modeling issues with the 190. Sorry, I misread your tone and thought you were saying sarcastically that the P47 pilot must be a complete chucklehead. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I agree with your flow of logic above.
I'm not fighting per se, more trying to get something concrete out of the people that say something's wrong. If something's wrong, it should be easy to define what it is, shouldn't it?
Wiley.
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I cant quite make out the fuel gauge readings of both aircraft from that guncam. must just be my eyesight :headscratch:
maybe this guy was flying the jug, he'd alone would account for the increased radius.
(http://www.buzzpirates.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/porkins-240x300.jpg)
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maybe this guy was flying the jug, he'd alone would account for the increased radius.
(http://www.buzzpirates.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/porkins-240x300.jpg)
Hey! Lay off Porkins. He had a condition, and it killed him. If it wasn't for the extra weight he'dve been able to outaccelerate those TIE fighters.
Wiley.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGr7lXlyK3Y (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGr7lXlyK3Y)
edit: and RIP Porkins!
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He had a condition, and it killed him.
an atomic fart?
Hungeritus is a b**ch to kick, I kept trying to keep him from making mid-night runs to the intergalactic flythrough McDs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHlp2vMyknQ&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHlp2vMyknQ&feature=related)
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Hungeritus is a b**ch to kick, I kept trying to keep him from making mid-night runs to the intergalactic flythrough McDs.
Oh sure... Make light of it... The fact is, the poor guy had been anorexic for years, and by the time of the Death Star run he'd beaten it thoroughly.
Wiley.
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then is it really the people who fly Luftwaffe planes that suck?
Yup :old: :)
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Yup :old: :)
I want to see plazuz vs pervert duel....
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Yup :old: :)
Luft players sukk the biggest one, especially the g-6 pilots.
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Luft players sukk the biggest one, especially the g-6 pilots.
And this is news? :)
I'll be looking for G-6s in the Scenario upcoming. I'll be the out dated Spit Vb pilot in the 91 Squadron markings :)
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Note the last sentence of the document.
AH A-8 has always had this auxiliary fuel tank.
640 litres, 169 US gallons of internal fuel.
that doesn't quite add up according to the table on that page. look at the fuel capacities again.
forward fuel - 51.1 gallons
rear fuel - 64.4 gallons
auxilliary fuselage - 25.3 gallons
total = 140.8
where is the extra 28.2 gallons?
could that be the reason the a8 is like a flying pig compared to the a5 and even the f8?
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Again, based on what?
You could see vapor trails coming off the Jugs wingtips, meaning he was pulling pretty hard. How hard? Unknown. Ultimately, we don't even know the results of the combat, other than the FW190 got some hits in. Obviously there were moments where the Jug was "out-turning" the FW190, and other times when the 190 was getting temporary angles on the Jug. That being said, there's nothing conclusive to be drawn from that video, other than they were both turning very hard in what appeared to be a pretty even fight.
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We know how fuel weight affects turning. Somebody please post the amount of fuel they have in the video. :devil
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total = 140.8
where is the extra 28.2 gallons?
640 litres = 140.8 imperial(UK) gallons = 169 US gallons.
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The fundamental flaw with this argument is that most players don't have success period. Luche had a post awhile ago that stated the avg k/d was .3 or something. Basically you're an allied whiner, whining about 'luft whiners'....
Would you like some 'boxed' whine with your American Cheese?
I prefer hot pepper cheese with my boxed whine. Gotta savor that spicy zest with the tears.
On the other hand, I'm kind of surprised that some of you guys took my troll posts seriously. And they weren't really good troll posts either... I guess the Luft fans really do take their planes seriously...
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640 litres = 140.8 imperial(UK) gallons = 169 US gallons.
no idea where you're getting the liters or the imperial gallons but, i'll just take your word for it.
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no idea where you're getting the liters or the imperial gallons but, i'll just take your word for it.
On that page, the gallons they're measuring in are Imperial gallons, which are larger than US gallons. That's where the extra 28.2 comes in when you look at the display in AH, because AH would measure in US gallons.
Never made much sense to me, but you 'Merkins always gotta do things different from everyone else. ;)
Wiley.
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liters i can easily accept but why in the world would anyone want to use "imperial gallons"? :rolleyes:
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looks like war ministry test data to me (just from the format of the power settings table.) in that case why in the world would they want to use "US gallons"? :rolleyes:
btw the clue is right there in the pdf
115 Ltr (25.3 gal)
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liters i can easily accept but why in the world would anyone want to use "imperial gallons"? :rolleyes:
Because at the time and location that document was written, a 'gallon' meant an Imperial gallon. At the time and location AH was created, a 'gallon' means an American gallon.
Wiley.
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I'm sticking to my guns on this - The best solution is the hardest one to implement, I think, and that is we need more late-war model 190-A series aircraft variants in the game, at some point or another, to more accurately represent the set and the wide multitude of varieties that were produced. For comparison - Look how many '44-'45 models of P-47s we have in this game for example, and the wide variety that series was produced in during that time.
Oh, and btw, the 190-A8 we have in the game is very accurately modeled, however it is one of the heaviest production variants they produced, yet in AH it is supposed to represent a very broad spectrum of late-war-era A-models that were produced after the A-5.
+1 for any 190 love from HTCs.
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I'm sticking to my guns on this - The best solution is the hardest one to implement, I think, and that is we need more late-war model 190-A series aircraft variants in the game, at some point or another, to more accurately represent the set and the wide multitude of varieties that were produced. For comparison - Look how many '44-'45 models of P-47s we have in this game for example, and the wide variety that series was produced in during that time.
Oh, and btw, the 190-A8 we have in the game is very accurately modeled, however it is one of the heaviest production variants they produced, yet in AH it is supposed to represent a very broad spectrum of late-war-era A-models that were produced after the A-5.
+1 for any 190 love from HTCs.
Only if I can have my Spit XII, and LFIX with full span Univeral Wings, a clipped LFVc and a Seafire LFIII...oh and a Beaufighter and P38H :)
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I'm sticking to my guns on this - The best solution is the hardest one to implement, I think, and that is we need more late-war model 190-A series aircraft variants in the game, at some point or another, to more accurately represent the set and the wide multitude of varieties that were produced. For comparison - Look how many '44-'45 models of P-47s we have in this game for example, and the wide variety that series was produced in during that time.
Oh, and btw, the 190-A8 we have in the game is very accurately modeled, however it is one of the heaviest production variants they produced, yet in AH it is supposed to represent a very broad spectrum of late-war-era A-models that were produced after the A-5.
+1 for any 190 love from HTCs.
There are some pretty drastic changes in performance between those Jug models, so its not like they're duplicate copies of the same plane. And, it was the most numerous U.S. fighter constructed during the war--a very significant airplane. Now, I'm not a 190 afficianado, so maybe you can explain the differences to me between the 190A8 and 190Awhatever. But one thing that should be remembered is that you don't "have" to load that A8 down with all the cannons in order for it to be very effective. When I flew the 190, I'd strip it down to just the 2x20mm package and that was plenty of firepower for anti-fighter work, and made it light enough to be pretty competitive with the U.S. late-war monsters.
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there was a change in the wings between the a6 and the a8 due to what was i found was described as "weight creep". the increased fuel capacity, added armor and weapons, made the a8 heavier than its predecessors and they made some changes to the wings. i'll have to find the reference again but, i believe the a8 wings were made thinner and longer than those on the earlier "a models". the mounts for the wing guns were moved as well.
looks like war ministry test data to me (just from the format of the power settings table.) in that case why in the world would they want to use "US gallons"? :rolleyes:
btw the clue is right there in the pdf
why would the german war ministry use u.k. gallons? by the way, the original german text doesn't have any reference to gallons.
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I think we can now draw a safe conclusion for this thread. Due to the information that has been contributed to this thread, we can draw the following conclusions:
1. FW190A8s are an overweight pig that is good for nothing but flying straight and HOing.
2. The FW190A8 should be able to turn and burn with the rest of the planeset, despite having an ugly wing planeform and wing load.
3. All Luftwaffe planes are severely undermodeled because HTC hates the Luftwaffe and the community boasts a heavy bias towards Allied aircraft therefore all Allied planes are automatically better (despite the fact that the Luftwaffe planeset already has the only jets, largest gun loadouts of any plane, fastest mid/low alt bomber, best 109 for climb rates, and just about every other superior classification out there)
These conclusions leave but one glaring issue left to be discussed. If the current German planeset has the best of the best of aircraft available, then is it really the people who fly Luftwaffe planes that suck?
HAHA. Good laugh before work. You sir, are an idiot.
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HAHA. Good laugh before work. You sir, are an idiot.
Glad I could bring a smile to your face. :)
I want to see plazuz vs pervert duel....
I think it would be a fun duel. However, pervert being himself, I think he may spend most of the time looking under my skirt. In this case, I better make sure I wear my panties.
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However, pervert being himself, I think he may spend most of the time looking under my skirt. In this case, I better make sure I wear my panties.
got camel toe?
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yes we need a 190a8 remodel with either a weight or boost correction,or how about add the fw190-16/ g model or the 190a9
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keep the posts coming guys. i am still wondering if it is a weight issue or a performance of engine issue...or both....either way,it would be nice to see a more correct 190-a8 model
Sure. It would be nice if anybody in this thread could post a legitimate and concrete source of information suggesting that HTC should make revisions the flight model. Otherwise we will just have to stick with the usual whines about how Luftwaffe planes are nerfed all to hell.
got camel toe?
I'm thinking more along the lines of moose knuckle.
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Sure. It would be nice if anybody in this thread could post a legitimate and concrete source of information suggesting that HTC should make revisions the flight model. Otherwise we will just have to stick with the usual whines about how Luftwaffe planes are nerfed all to hell.
you mean like pilot handbooks, test flight data and technical manuals? ok, now that i have some, any suggestion on how to compare the specs used by htc to the documentation i have?
it's probably nothing more than a matter of differences in air density between maps. :rolleyes:
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Only if I can have my Spit XII, and LFIX with full span Univeral Wings, a clipped LFVc and a Seafire LFIII...oh and a Beaufighter and P38H :)
I will gladly join your wholehearted crusade, if you could please and so kindly spare the time to supply me with a list of in-game spitfires and their associated war production time frames/periods.
The A-5 in-game represents ~ an 8-month production period of the A-series 190 aircraft. Our current A-8 in-game, while based on a later production variant, can be taken to represent the entire A-series from after that A-5, which from last A-5 produced in June '43 would be ~23-months of various production models and variants rolled into one ( - the heaviest laden! :furious :mad: :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead :bhead - ) A-model variant in-game.
How many more variants should there be? Well, similarly Guppy we'd both like to see every variant and model of our favorite aircraft in-game, so I can't unbiasedly make any recommendation there, but more (see: all of them) would be good.
There are some pretty drastic changes in performance between those Jug models, so its not like they're duplicate copies of the same plane. And, it was the most numerous U.S. fighter constructed during the war--a very significant airplane. Now, I'm not a 190 afficianado, so maybe you can explain the differences to me between the 190A8 and 190Awhatever. But one thing that should be remembered is that you don't "have" to load that A8 down with all the cannons in order for it to be very effective. When I flew the 190, I'd strip it down to just the 2x20mm package and that was plenty of firepower for anti-fighter work, and made it light enough to be pretty competitive with the U.S. late-war monsters.
Agreed, there are some pretty drastic differences between each variant of Jug and the large representation is needed, but similarly there were also in the 190A-series. Over 6,500 A-8 series airframes were produced, alone, over a 14-month period of time (and I think from ~7 different factories). I can't really make an accurate comparison, but ballpark would be taking every D-model jug and forcing a break-down of all their various differences into only two variants available in-game (and choosing to model the later model based off the heaviest production variant produced... as the base model).
As for your recommendation, it is true and makes a notable impact to performance in-game, however, and again, the A-8 model we have in-game is simply not cutting it by merely mixing up the armament packages because it is the heaviest possible base model. It is based off the heaviest, strongest-armamaent, high-altitude, armored-flying-bathtub bomber-intercepter of a production model. GREAT for buff hunting and killing, horrible for lightening up to represent the exceptionally competitive fighter-intercpeter that it was also quite capable of.
yes we need a 190a8 remodel with either a weight or boost correction,or how about add the fw190-16/ g model or the 190a9
See, there's your problem, nothing needs to be corrected, it's all quite accurately modeled, it's just unfortunately one of the heaviest A-series production models that HTC chose to accurately model.
In my own fantasy world, where I own my own flight simulation company and HT is the janitor (just kidding!), probably would be 4-5 different A-series 190s in the game, 2-3 alone being A-8 variants.
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excellent information babalonian. but, the a8 in game is a high altitude variant? :headscratch: i thought it was modeled with the mw50 and not the gm-1 system.
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LFIX was the most produced version of the Spit IX of which there were 5600 + built between 42 and 45. About 80 percent of Spit IX production were LFIX. The Russians got over 1100 LFIX. It's the one with the Merlin 66. We have the earlier FIX with the Merlin 61.
Spit XII is a long time history project. Only 100 built serving from February 43-September 44. Highest scoring 11 Group Spit squadron in the fall of 43 was 91 which was a Spit XII squadron. Built specifically to counter low altitude 190 hit and run raiders on the south coast of England but used over France effectively.
Seafire III was the primary Seafire version in WW2 with over half of all Seafire production, a bit over 1000 planes produced 43-45
Spit LFV was an updated Spitfire V with an engine rated for lower alt performance. It was a result of the 190 domination of the Spitfire FVb when it was first introduced. The LF V closed the gap somewhat but not all the way. Still in combat in mid 44.
Beaufighter. In combat from 40-45 Production of over 5000. Multi role ground attack, torpedo bomber, fighter etc.
P-38H, last of the small intake 38s. Just because :)
I understand the 190 fans wish. All those different versions of the 190. Looking at just the Spit IX, there are 32 different variations on just the IX. I count 39 for the Spitfire V.
Somehow HTC has to cover a lot of variants effectively but in moderation :)
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I'm not sure about it's speed characteristics, but you can know for sure that it's very incorrect. P47 pilots would claim that the Thunderbolt's only advantage over the FW 190 was it's roll rate. Isn't that the exact opposite of AH2? I'd take any of the Thunderbolts vs any of the FW's anytime in AH2, but in life that was near suicide. The fact of the matter is, the FW190 could out-turn the P47. It was the 190's fight to lose anywhere but on the deck and then it was 50:50.
I love the Jug, I feel I should say that, but I like the 190 too and I don't comprehend why to make the airplane inaccurate to a point where it's the exact opposite of what the real pilots claim. Is this a simulator or an arcade game?
Having said that, it should be known that the 109 is also inaccurate. Hans-Joachim Marseille(who Gunther Rall would call 'the best') would achieve kills with high deflection shooting with the 109's flaps. And no, not at 180 MPH true, more about 300.
It's already a fine aircraft, but it's sadly incorrect.
Wanna see what the planes were really like? What Buff hunting was really like and I think, if this is the right video, how maneuverable the 190 was, you can see a 190 A7 out-turning a p47 at the end and giving it a solid burst. The Jug's toughness is under-modeled in AH2, particularly it's R2800 engine. Also, if this is the right video, you get to see a p38 turn(who Robin Olds would say, you get a decent pilot in it, you can whip anything down low).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZOb0vx9y9I
having talked with a ww2 vet that used to be in our r/c club(he had flown 47's, then 51's), that had the opportunity to fly a couple different versions of the 109, and the 190 after the war.......right from his mouth........the 190's he flew were every bit the match for anything we had in the sky. he also said that he was thankful that there weren't better pilots still flying for the luftwaffe by the time they started using the later models.
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having talked with a ww2 vet that used to be in our r/c club(he had flown 47's, then 51's), that had the opportunity to fly a couple different versions of the 109, and the 190 after the war.......right from his mouth........the 190's he flew were every bit the match for anything we had in the sky. he also said that he was thankful that there weren't better pilots still flying for the luftwaffe by the time they started using the later models.
While I respect his experience, what exactly does "every bit the match for anything we had in the sky" mean in quantitative terms? Not much really, except that he thought they were competitive airframes. The qualitative comparison is context only. When we talk about modelling in-game, it doesn't help HTC get turn rates or roll rates that match real-world performance. I always go back to Robert Johnson's exclamation that once he got the paddle-blade prop on his Jug, he could out climb a Spitfire. I don't think he was deliberately making it up--just that his perception was that he could. WW has spoken of this before. We should appreciate their experience for what it is--context. Unless they were a test pilot, and flew controlled flight tests to compare the aircraft, and had data from those tests, it really doesn't give us anything to make a quantitative comparison...
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While I respect his experience, what exactly does "every bit the match for anything we had in the sky" mean in quantitative terms? Not much really, except that he thought they were competitive airframes. The qualitative comparison is context only. When we talk about modelling in-game, it doesn't help HTC get turn rates or roll rates that match real-world performance. I always go back to Robert Johnson's exclamation that once he got the paddle-blade prop on his Jug, he could out climb a Spitfire. I don't think he was deliberately making it up--just that his perception was that he could. WW has spoken of this before. We should appreciate their experience for what it is--context. Unless they were a test pilot, and flew controlled flight tests to compare the aircraft, and had data from those tests, it really doesn't give us anything to make a quantitative comparison...
what it meant to him, was that he was thankful that the luftwaffe didn't have any good pilots left to fly those things.
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what it meant to him, was that he was thankful that the luftwaffe didn't have any good pilots left to fly those things.
That still doesn't help. Because of the "too the death" style of AH combat, turn ability is over emphasized. Nothing in his claim indicates that the Fw190 should turn with a P-38, just that it was competitive in combat. Despite the frequent complaints to the contrary, German iron seems to hold its own pretty well in scenarios in AH.
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... just to clarify, since noone seems to have done so yet:
AH 190A8, 170 US gal, 4x20mms - 9,682lb
RL 190A8, 170 US gal, 4x20mms - 9,717lb
so our AH 190A8 is 35lb too light.
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... just to clarify, since noone seems to have done so yet:
AH 190A8, 170 US gal, 4x20mms - 9,682lb
RL 190A8, 170 US gal, 4x20mms - 9,717lb
so our AH 190A8 is 35lb too light.
where did you come up with 9717lbs for rl weight?
i'm looking at 9,452 -55lbs for winter equipment + 265lbs for fuselage tank = 9,662lbs (4x 20mm, 2x 13mm, 100% fuel)
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is our A8 not fitted with winter equipment?
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why i cant see a g6?
Because there wasn't a Luftwaffe plane ever built that could out perform the best Allied planes.
ack-ack
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Because there wasn't a Luftwaffe plane ever built that could out perform the best Allied planes.
ack-ack
sorry akak but its pure lying
lets see the rides:
109F/190A: best aircrafts in 1941-42
262... uhm... it was a real PoS, totally uncompetitive in '44
lets see the names:
Erich Hartmann 352 WWII Germany
Gerhard Barkhorn 301 WWII Germany
Guenther Rall 275 WWII Germany
Otto Kittel 267 WWII Germany
Walter Nowotny 258(2) WWII Germany
Wilhelm Batz 237 WWII Germany
Erich Rudorffer 222(12) WWII Germany
Heinrich Baer 220(16) WWII Germany
Hermann Graf 212 WWII Germany
Heinrich Ehrler 209(5, 220?) WWII Germany
Theodore Weissenburger 209(8, 252?) WWII Germany
Hans Philip 206 WWII Germany
Walter Schuck 206(8) WWII Germany
Anton Hafner 204 WWII Germany
Helmut Lipfert 203 WWII Germany
Walter Krupinski 197 WWII Germany
Anton Hackl 192 WWII Germany
Maximilian Stotz 189 WWII Germany
Joachim Brendel 189 WWII Germany
Joachim Kirschner 188 WWII Germany
Kurt Hans Friedrich Brandle 180 WWII Germany
Guenther Josten 178 WWII Germany
Johannes Steinhoff 176(6) WWII Germany
Ernst-Wilhelm Reinert 174 WWII Germany
Gunther Schack 174 WWII Germany
Heinz "Johnny" Schmidt 173 WWII Germany
Emil Lang 173 WWII Germany
Horst Adameit 166 WWII Germany
Wolf-Dietrich Wilke 162(161?) WWII Germany
Hans-Joachim Marseille 158 WWII Germany
Heinrich Sturm 158(157?) WWII Germany
Gerhard Thyben 157 WWII Germany
Hans Beiswenger 152 WWII Germany
Peter Duettmann 152 WWII Germany
Gordon Gollob 150 WWII Germany
Fritz Tegtmeier 146 WWII Germany
Albin Wolf 144(176?) WWII Germany
Kurt Tanzer 143 WWII Germany
Friedrich-Karl "Tutti" Mueller 140 WWII Germany
Karl Gratz 138 WWII Germany
Heinrich Setz 138 WWII Germany
Rudolf Trenkel 138 WWII Germany
Horst-Guenther von Fassong 137 WWII Germany
Herbert Ihlefeld 137(7 Spain) WWII Germany
Franz Schall 137(14) WWII Germany
Walter Wolfrum 137 WWII Germany
Adolf Dickfeld 136 WWII Germany
Otto Foennekold 136 WWII Germany
Karl-Heinz Weber 136 WWII Germany
Joachim Muencheberg 135 WWII Germany
Hans Waldmann 134(2) WWII Germany
Alfred Grislawski 133 WWII Germany
Walter Oesau 133(8 Spain) WWII Germany
Johannes Weise 133(208?) WWII Germany
Adolf Borchers 132 WWII Germany
Erwin Clausen 132 WWII Germany
Wilhelm Lemke 131 WWII Germany
Heinrich "Bazi" Sterr 130 WWII Germany
Franz Eisenach 129 WWII Germany
Walter Dahl 128 WWII Germany
Franz Doerr 128 WWII Germany
Friedrich Obleser 127 WWII Germany
Rudolf Rademacher 126(8) WWII Germany
Josef "Jupp" Zwernemann 126 WWII Germany
Gerhard Hoffman 125 WWII Germany
Dietrich Hrabak 125 WWII Germany
Wolf-Udo Ettel 124 WWII Germany
Wolfgang Tonne 122 WWII Germany
Heinz Marquardt 121 WWII Germany
Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer 121(night) WWII Germany
Robert Weiss 121 WWII Germany
Erich Leie 118 WWII Germany
Guenther Luetzow 113(5 Spain) WWII Germany
Reinhard Seiler 118(9 Spain) WWII Germany
Hans Beerenbrock 117 WWII Germany
Hans-Joachim Birkner 117(Hartmann) WWII Germany
Jakob Norz 117 WWII Germany
Heinz "Piepl" Wernicke 117 WWII Germany
August Lambert 116 WWII Germany
Werner Moelders 115(14 Spain) WWII Germany
Wilhelm Crinius 114 WWII Germany
Werner Schroer 114 WWII Germany
Hans Dammers 113 WWII Germany
Berthold Korts 113 WWII Germany
Kurt Buhlingen 112 WWII Germany
Helmut Lent 110(102 night) WWII Germany
Kurt Ubben 110 WWII Germany
Franz Woidich 110 WWII Germany
Emil Bitsch 108 WWII Germany
Hans "Assi" Hahn 108 WWII Germany
Bernard Vechtel 108 WWII Germany
Viktor Bauer 106 WWII Germany
Werner Lucas 106 WWII Germany
Adolf Galland 104(7) WWII Germany
Heinz Sachsenberg 104 WWII Germany
Hartmann Grasser 103 WWII Germany
Seigfried Freytag 102 WWII Germany
Friedrich Geisshardt 102 WWII Germany
Egon Mayer 102 WWII Germany
Max-Hellmuth Ostermann 102 WWII Germany
Josef Wurmheller 102 WWII Germany
Herbert Rollwage 102 WWII Germany
Rudolf Miethig 101 WWII Germany
Rudolf Mueller 101 WWII Germany
Josef "Pips" Priller 101 WWII Germany
Ulrich Wernitz 101 WWII Germany
Paul-Heinrich Daehne 100 WWII Germany
Dezso Szentgyorgyi 34 WWII Hungary
Gyorgy Debrody 26 WWII Hungary
James E. Johnson 36.91(38?) WWII UK
Brendon E. Finucane 32 WWII UK(Irish)
Robert Braham 29 WWII UK
There we go.
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lets see the rides:
109F/190A: best aircrafts in 1941-42
While not an Allied plane, a very good argument can be made that the A6M Zero the better aircraft during those years, it was by far the more maneuverable one. But I digress, as the Zeke wasn't Allied but then you can also make the argument that the Spitfire (Mk I and Mk V) were very much equals to the planes you've listed during those years and later Spitfire marks surpassed them as the war went on.
262... uhm... it was a real PoS, totally uncompetitive in '44
not that it was a POS, but it wasn't the stellar plane that the History Channel and Luftwhiners have claimed it was. The biggest impact the Me 262 had was ushering in the combat jet age, not that it was some fantastic early jet aircraft. Did you know that a P-51D and a P-47 could catch one in a dive?
ta-154 (no misspelling)
Are you serious? Did you know that the Nazi's took the name from the Mosquito in recognition to the superior qualities of the RAF plane and that Erhard Milch wanted a German version of the Mosquito? Did you also know that the few production models that were made, their performance was less than impressive than the prototypes?
You're not using very good examples of showing LW aircraft superiority.
lets see the names:
*snip*
There we go.
While the number of German aces is impressive, you must look at their numbers in the proper context. The majority of German aces were on the Eastern Front during the early part of the war, primarily 1941-mid 1943, when the quality of both Soviet pilots and equipment wasn't on par with the Luftwaffe. After mid-1943 when better Soviet aircraft and pilots started to enter the war, the number of Luftwaffe aces started to drop, not just in kill counts but also in lives. I believe the Luftwaffe aces that spent the majority (if not all) their service on the Western Front achieved far less kills, think there were only a couple of 100+ kill aces.
The ace list you posted again, doesn't support the argument that the Luftwaffe could build a plane that could out perform the best Allied planes. It does show that the Luftwaffe had a field day in the first few years of the air war on the Eastern Front.
ack-ack
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How so?
It is generally accepted that the one you refer to as the Ic, the Ki-84 Hei, was only ever armed with a single Ho-115 30-mm in the right wing and nothing in the left but since the weapon was experimental it may have often flown with the weapon removed altogether & the total number of this type might number as few as 3 units.
Ihttp://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/japan/japfighters-comp.jpg
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Ki-84-la
According to the comparison chart, at 21k the real 'Frank' flew at 422 miles per hour and 350 at sea level.
AH2 has it at, from what I can tell from the chart, ~380 mph on wep at ~18k and ~340 at sea level.
Also, laughingly, the 'Frank' could climb at 3200 fpm at 21k, compared to the 2500 fpm at the same alt.
Looking at the plane to the right on the chart, the 'Jack' or J2M I think(it doesn't really say) looks like an incredibly capable fighter and would fit into this game well I think.
That upper website has some really cool AAR's form the 56th Fighter group and many others, some good reads(if you can make out some of the handwriting).
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Ihttp://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/japan/japfighters-comp.jpg
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Ki-84-la
According to the comparison chart, at 21k the real 'Frank' flew at 422 miles per hour and 350 at sea level.
AH2 has it at, from what I can tell from the chart, ~380 mph on wep at ~18k and ~340 at sea level.
Also, laughingly, the 'Frank' could climb at 3200 fpm at 21k, compared to the 2500 fpm at the same alt.
Looking at the plane to the right on the chart, the 'Jack' or J2M I think(it doesn't really say) looks like an incredibly capable fighter and would fit into this game well I think.
That upper website has some really cool AAR's form the 56th Fighter group and many others, some good reads(if you can make out some of the handwriting).
I believe those figures for the Ki-84 on that chart were derived from the Ki-84 using a better quality of fuel (with a higher octane level) during those US flight tests than what the Ki-84 used when in operational service with the Japanese.
ack-ack
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MY GOD, THE A8 IS OVER WEGIHT BY 1000 LBS?!?! OH REALLY? I PRESSED THIS ISSUE A LONG TIME AGO LIKE, FIVE MONTHS AND NOBODY SAID ANYTHING FOR LIKOH E FOUR MONTHS, NOW IT'S OVER LOADING THE FORUMS!!! :bhead
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sorry akak but its pure lying
Emil Lang 173 WWII Germany
The majority of Bully Lang's kills were on the Eastern front. He was shot down by a Spit XII pilot for his only air to air kill of the war outside of V-1s kills September 3, 1944. So was the Spitfire driver a better pilot because he killed Lange in air to air combat or was Lange? You'd have to give it to the single kill Spit driver based on his still flying at the end of the fight. In the end it's a silly argument though wouldn't you agree?
To make a comparison you really need to include sorties flown, and theater flown in. Also keep in account massive overclaiming. There was just a discussion on another board regarding Bartels, a 100+ Luftwaffe ace. He claimed 7 P-38s over two days as part of 19 total LW P-38 claims. This was over their own turf. One P-38 was actually lost and one damaged that returned to base. Someone else then pointed out he had 2 Mustang claims on another mission and there were none. Again over his own turf. I get it that pilots over claim, in particular over the other guy's turf where there is nothing to confirm it beyond gun camera film, but getting credit for 9 phantom kills over your own turf, makes those 100 + kill Aces suspect.
So lets agree that every country produced good pilots but lets not get carried away with the numbers too much :)
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MY GOD, THE A8 IS OVER WEGIHT BY 1000 LBS?!?! OH REALLY? I PRESSED THIS ISSUE A LONG TIME AGO LIKE, FIVE MONTHS AND NOBODY SAID ANYTHING FOR LIKOH E FOUR MONTHS, NOW IT'S OVER LOADING THE FORUMS!!! :bhead
maybe because you keep using those over-sized red, capitals letters that everyone just ignores your posts. :devil
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Ihttp://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/japan/japfighters-comp.jpg
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Ki-84-la
According to the comparison chart, at 21k the real 'Frank' flew at 422 miles per hour and 350 at sea level.
AH2 has it at, from what I can tell from the chart, ~380 mph on wep at ~18k and ~340 at sea level.
Also, laughingly, the 'Frank' could climb at 3200 fpm at 21k, compared to the 2500 fpm at the same alt.
Looking at the plane to the right on the chart, the 'Jack' or J2M I think(it doesn't really say) looks like an incredibly capable fighter and would fit into this game well I think.
That upper website has some really cool AAR's form the 56th Fighter group and many others, some good reads(if you can make out some of the handwriting).
We've got the early production Ko, which is the heaviest of the production variants (not counting the emergency material later versions) and also the one with the least powerful engine. Also HTC models the poor fuel which was employed I understand. Nevertheless I find it quite a capable fighter.
There are three incorrectly modelled features I am currently aware of with AH's Ki-84, but perhaps we'd best not hijack the 190 thread. :old:
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maybe because you keep using those over-sized red, capitals letters that everyone just ignores your posts. :devil
Sorry but I'm really annoyed, I think HiTech monitors the forums enough to know about this. I'm sick of all these pages and pages about the A8, guess what I get the message. Anyone with a thick head would be able to understand. I mean, this is worse than the spam of the Hellcat forums, I fully approved of the wish, but I know is was post TOO MANY TIMES. Can't we please just hold this to one single forum? You're blocking out all of the other people's posts, I'm sure HiTech is kicking himself for the mistake. We all understand.
Now I'm going to put in my own five cents here.
You are all correct about all of the above (Six pages highlighted). It is over weight, this would greatly increase the manuverability and climb rate. If this was fixed, it would be an excellent bomber hunter (Imagine about two or five of these up against a B-29). It would be a better bomber hunter than a Bf-110 probably. The Bf-110 has a heavier package which is a favorite of mine, it's also twin engine so if you loose an engine it's kind of funny to still survive. However the Bf-109 is a greater performer.
I think I kind of went off topic on this post but you understand me.
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ok akak you da man, your statements are nonsense again
-the zeek is far more maneuverable then the 109f. who cares, the 109f is 50+mph faster than the 1941 zeeks spit5? still 20mph+ advantage and could keep up in turning for a while p38g? f4f? p40s? mig3? you kidding?
-ya also the dora or 190a5 could catch the 262 in a dive sidenote: if they had moe than 10k alt advantage show me any other 530mph ride from 1944 plz.
The germans had the best planes in '41-42 and in '44-45 while they had numbers in the mid-war, the lack of the mass-production and new pilots made the uber late war rides near useless
hmm Hartmann scored his kills on the eastern front same with Nowi Krupinsky etc etc of course they had a harder job since the russians had three times more aircraft then them... come on. Still: la5=g15 la7=k4
Youre only a little bit arrogant dude. Plazus said something silly then you grab an extract from my answer and make an even sillyer statement. Would be nice if you could think it through before you make a post like that one.
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having talked with a ww2 vet that used to be in our r/c club(he had flown 47's, then 51's), that had the opportunity to fly a couple different versions of the 109, and the 190 after the war.......right from his mouth........the 190's he flew were every bit the match for anything we had in the sky. he also said that he was thankful that there weren't better pilots still flying for the luftwaffe by the time they started using the later models.
I would give my right leg to pick at that man's brain for an afternoon if not days. Very cool, but he also must of seen a _vast_ variety of variants and models then.
And I haven't said our A-8 is "overweight" for a very long time now, it is accuratley modeled to well-within acceptable limits to one of the heaviest variants of A-8s produced.
But, wouldn't it be be really cool if we got a lighter fighter-intercept variant, since there are so many calls for a lighter one?
Oh, and yeah, not to be rude to the rest of you guys here, thanks:
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff63/Blind_Pig/Derailment.jpg)
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ok akak you da man, your statements are nonsense again
The germans had the best planes in '41-42
Well, as I pointed out the Spitfire and later marks were equal to and in some marks, surpassed German planes in performance. By every account, the Spitfire M k I was the equal to the Bf 109F and exemplified during the Battle of Britain. When the FW 190A made it's debut, true it was superior to both the Mark I and Mark II Spitfire but that was largely eroded when the V mark was introduced which again leveled out the playing field.
and in '44-45
Which planes? The Bf 109 series was largely obsolete as a fighter by 1944 but Germany was forced to keep it alive by continuously upgrading it but it was just a shell of its former self. The FW 190? Nope, in the same boat by the end of the war and there were many Allied planes that were superior in performance by war's end. The Me 262? Again, while it was a technological leap from propeller driven aircraft to jet powered aircraft, it wasn't the super duper uber weapon some think it to be. The Ta 154? Don't make me laugh, I already posted why that plane was a bust and hardly any proof of German late war plane superiority.
while they had numbers in the mid-war, the lack of the mass-production and new pilots made the uber late war rides near useless
Oh, it was far more than simple "lack of the mass-production and new pilots" that crippled the Luftwaffe by war's end. How about the near utter destruction of the Luftwaffe by the Allies, that was the primary reason.
hmm Hartmann scored his kills on the eastern front same with Nowi Krupinsky etc etc of course they had a harder job since the russians had three times more aircraft then them... come on. Still: la5=g15 la7=k4
You seem to neglect that the majority of the planes encountered at the beginning of the war on the Eastern Front where obsolete planes like the I-16, I-15 or poor performing aircraft like the LaGG-1. On top of that, it was a poorly trained and led air force, unlike the Luftwaffe. It wasn't until around mid-1943 did the Soviets finally achieve parity with the Luftwaffe in both equipment and personnel.
Youre only a little bit arrogant dude. Plazus said something silly then you grab an extract from my answer and make an even sillyer statement. Would be nice if you could think it through before you make a post like that one.
It would be nice if you could back up what you post instead of just posting Luftwhiner tripe.
ack-ack
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sigh
-the 190 never met mk1 spits. It was clearly superior to the mk5s, and the mk9 in 42 summer was the breakthrough for the brits.
-in the BoB the poor leadership decided the battle, not the planes. The spit1 was superior to the 109E in an 1v1, but the Emil had cannons whats a big advantage in the many vs many.
-the 109F was a great improvement over the E in every aspect: speed, climb, roll, turn, aim-ability. It wasnt clearly superior to the spit5, but if you really wanna, i can call it a draw: the F was just as faster, as much the spit5 could turn better. The spit9 is very close to the 109F, a lil bit superior to it.
-1944: ponyd vs 109k4. who wins? wanna try in the da? : ) ok the pony is better in the many vs many situations.
-the 262 had 2 weaknesses: 1: Adolf Hitlers dumb arse 2: poor climbrate at high alt
Being a luftwhiner arse, could you tell me what im whining about? RAF-wheenie : )
Your statements are nonsense, man. Your arrogance knows no boarders. Plz look into the mirror, think about what you seen, then post your answer.
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MY GOD, THE A8 IS OVER WEGIHT BY 1000 LBS?!?! OH REALLY? I PRESSED THIS ISSUE A LONG TIME AGO LIKE, FIVE MONTHS AND NOBODY SAID ANYTHING FOR LIKOH E FOUR MONTHS, NOW IT'S OVER LOADING THE FORUMS!!! :bhead
PROVE IT! :rolleyes:
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(http://troll.me/images/cat-thread/ok-you-dogs-this-is-now-a-cat-thread.jpg)
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Youre only a little bit arrogant dude. Plazus said something silly then you grab an extract from my answer and make an even sillyer statement. Would be nice if you could think it through before you make a post like that one.
Sure my statement was a little silly, given the way that I put it. But I still stand by my words: all of you Luft fans get so worked up over 25 pounds of extra weight and nerd rage over how making flight model revisions would significantly improve performance- thus making that Luftwaffe aircraft more competent against the more "superior" Allied rides. But we all know that this assumption isn't really true, so this begs the question, "Is it really the Luftwaffe pilots in game that suck"?
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ok akak you da man, your statements are nonsense again
-the zeek is far more maneuverable then the 109f. who cares, the 109f is 50+mph faster than the 1941 zeeks spit5? still 20mph+ advantage and could keep up in turning for a while p38g? f4f? p40s? mig3? you kidding?
-ya also the dora or 190a5 could catch the 262 in a dive sidenote: if they had moe than 10k alt advantage show me any other 530mph ride from 1944 plz.
The germans had the best planes in '41-42 and in '44-45 while they had numbers in the mid-war, the lack of the mass-production and new pilots made the uber late war rides near useless
hmm Hartmann scored his kills on the eastern front same with Nowi Krupinsky etc etc of course they had a harder job since the russians had three times more aircraft then them... come on. Still: la5=g15 la7=k4
Youre only a little bit arrogant dude. Plazus said something silly then you grab an extract from my answer and make an even sillyer statement. Would be nice if you could think it through before you make a post like that one.
Actually debrody, while out numbered on the Eastern Front, the LW were still the hunters not the hunted as they were on the Western Front. The Russians were focused much more on ground attack and down low. Think of it like the Western Desert. The RAF with all those 40s etc were still the hunted for a long time as they were ground attack and the 109s were interceptors.
In terms of air combat I think it's safe to say the LW pilots who served on both fronts would agree that it was harder on the Western Front.
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Debrody,
from one Muppet to another i will tell you, AKAK knows what he knows, period. i have read hundreds of his posts, when he posts he always posts from conviction. Now i will say that in 95% or more of his posts i have found truth and logic, and when researched most of his answers are dead on target. but once in a while, especially when it involves opinion and personal interpretation of factual analysis, he will stick to his guns no matter what you say or show to support your claims.
the argument you are having with AKAK is in the end mostly based upon opinion and preference, who was the better pilots, which rides really out performed what, which theater of operations should be counted as tougher and should carry more uberness points....ect ect. the war went as it went, there were good and great of both rides and riders on all sides.
AKAK is a great wealth of knowledge, just dont ever get into an opinional pizzing match with him.
the topic is the accuracy of the currently modeled A8..........can we get back to that?
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-in the BoB the poor leadership decided the battle, not the planes.
:mad: <Cough> The skill and bravery of all those young men who fought and died in the skies above their own country defending it against an invasion from a fascist regime in arguably the last moral war of the previous century also had something to do with it. :mad:
Careful young man, or I'll tell the whole Aces High community which manufacturer's engine was used to power the first model of Willy's Bf109 :old:
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ok ok i give it up ;)
btw i never got an extract from his posts and took deep conclusions about it. Also never said "the 38 is a piece of crap and inferior to the garman rides". I respect everyones knowledge but i think in this case his ego played the key role in his posts. Here, now, i apologize for being a bit rude.
Shida,
i never questioned noones bravery. Nor the brits, polaks, french, or anyone. We can say: the civil population won the BoB, the spitfire won it, the brave young lads, the radar, the poor german leadership etc etc
The truth is: all together.
end of hijack
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This can't end here. Do you think they'll add the 35 lbs to the bird or leave it like it is.
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This can't end here. Do you think they'll add the 35 lbs to the bird or leave it like it is.
if they corrected it to what the general consensus thinks it should be, it would take less than 1 day for someone to find fault with what they did.
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This can't end here. Do you think they'll add the 35 lbs to the bird or leave it like it is.
don't you mean remove? it's heavy unless someone wants to claim the winter equipment is actually part of the ah model.
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Shida,
i never questioned noones bravery. Nor the brits, polaks, french, or anyone. We can say: the civil population won the BoB, the spitfire won it, the brave young lads, the radar, the poor german leadership etc etc
The truth is: all together.
end of hijack
Please understand that while a discussion of plane specifications and performance is interesting at an abstract level and whilst it pertains to our shared hobby, the Battle of Britain is universally considered to be a battle of good versus evil. I won't have any implication that there was anything noble about Germany's activities during this period of history. The Luftwaffe aircrews were professionals no doubt but remember who they were hired by and what their mission was (and I don't mean militaristically).
Regarding the 190 series, this is just a suggestion, but maybe instead of disputing the weights etc endlessly, why doesn't someone suggest a useful intermediate model that HTC could produce using the current 3d and damage models, in the same way that they did with the recent P-47 variants. If you did all the work and presented it with references perhaps Mr HiTech would be more receptive to considering the inclusion of some more subtypes.
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Regarding the 190 series, this is just a suggestion, but maybe instead of disputing the weights etc endlessly, why doesn't someone suggest a useful intermediate model that HTC could produce using the current 3d and damage models, in the same way that they did with the recent P-47 variants.
My whole point on this is that HTC has had plenty of time to study the FW190A8 issue, and they've decided (it seems) that the weight of the aircraft is fine. Giving them the benefit of the doubt, the important question is why. Obviously, despite all the documentation the players have found, they still have a good reason to keep it the way it is. Given their willingness to make changes in the past, when errors or omissions have been found, don't you think its conspicuous that they haven't made a change yet? That means that they are in possession of some sort of material that they feel justifies the weight as currently modeled. Perhaps, instead of the semi-annual "fix the weight" thread, some energy could be made towards finding out whatever it is they have. It must exist out there for someone who really wants to find it...
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My whole point on this is that HTC has had plenty of time to study the FW190A8 issue, and they've decided (it seems) that the weight of the aircraft is fine. Giving them the benefit of the doubt, the important question is why. Obviously, despite all the documentation the players have found, they still have a good reason to keep it the way it is. Given their willingness to make changes in the past, when errors or omissions have been found, don't you think its conspicuous that they haven't made a change yet? That means that they are in possession of some sort of material that they feel justifies the weight as currently modeled. Perhaps, instead of the semi-annual "fix the weight" thread, some energy could be made towards finding out whatever it is they have. It must exist out there for someone who really wants to find it...
It could simply be that they haven't addressed it or it isn't a priority. I should of thought it would be more productive requesting one of the intermediate models, but I am not an Fw190 expert I don't even know what they are.
I did have a discussion recently regarding the weight being due to considerable amounts of armour fitted? I understand this included a plate to protect the annular oil cooler and even, uniquely, the side parts of the cockpit. I did want to test this out with some experimental shooting, but I generally only see one of two views of the Fw190A-8 in the MA, it's either coming towards you firing or going away from you running, I'm not even sure what it looks like from the side :lol
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It could simply be that they haven't addressed it or it isn't a priority. I should of thought it would be more productive requesting one of the intermediate models, but I am not an Fw190 expert I don't even know what they are.
The 'model in game being the heaviest variant' theory rings true with me. The 800-1000 lb figure I've seen thrown around hasn't been brought up in this thread, but if that had been the case I can't see them not prioritizing a fix. 800 lbs is a big number.
All that's been mentioned in this thread that was a concrete figure was 35 lbs. That's not much difference, accountable for by slight differences in test setups for different documentation. If it's the correct number swell, but I could see that being a low priority.
Wiley.
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I'm no 190 expert either. The only 190 I have seen is either far away moving farther away as fast as possible.... or in many pieces. In many cases most of the parts are missing. Testing any parts left are inconclusive due to holes and burned areas.
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Shuffler,
This could suggest that the removal of certain parts in the 190 may assist in weight reduction and improved maneuverability. Because flight model of the 190 is so nerfed, it would only make sense to sacrifice parts like elevators, flaps and/or wings to help assist with maneuvering at low altitudes, particularly at ground level.
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Shuffler,
This could suggest that the removal of certain parts in the 190 may assist in weight reduction and improved maneuverability. Because flight model of the 190 is so nerfed, it would only make sense to sacrifice parts like elevators, flaps and/or wings to help assist with maneuvering at low altitudes, particularly at ground level.
:rofl removal of the wings has been shown to increase the dive capability 1000%. experiments to reach mach 1 have been conducted but pilots have yet to report any success.
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Shuffler,
This could suggest that the removal of certain parts in the 190 may assist in weight reduction and improved maneuverability. Because flight model of the 190 is so nerfed, it would only make sense to sacrifice parts like elevators, flaps and/or wings to help assist with maneuvering at low altitudes, particularly at ground level.
I have seen many 190s at ground level... or just beneath it.
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<snip>
Regarding the 190 series, this is just a suggestion, but maybe instead of disputing the weights etc endlessly, why doesn't someone suggest a useful intermediate model that HTC could produce using the current 3d and damage models, in the same way that they did with the recent P-47 variants. If you did all the work and presented it with references perhaps Mr HiTech would be more receptive to considering the inclusion of some more subtypes.
Alternate A-8 variants, A-7s and A-9s have been suggested and presented many many times in this forum, I counter that you find me a 6-month gap where one hasn't been.
It is obvious that fatigue over the subject from the community's majority and HT/HTC as a whole, if nothing else, seeds the feelings of dispair and frustration amongst the 190 lovers in this community. The fact we can't set half of our own supporters straight on the overweight issue and that the current model isn't glaringly overweight is another genuine source of disheartening and frustration.
My whole point on this is that HTC has had plenty of time to study the FW190A8 issue, and they've decided (it seems) that the weight of the aircraft is fine. Giving them the benefit of the doubt, the important question is why. Obviously, despite all the documentation the players have found, they still have a good reason to keep it the way it is. Given their willingness to make changes in the past, when errors or omissions have been found, don't you think its conspicuous that they haven't made a change yet? That means that they are in possession of some sort of material that they feel justifies the weight as currently modeled. Perhaps, instead of the semi-annual "fix the weight" thread, some energy could be made towards finding out whatever it is they have. It must exist out there for someone who really wants to find it...
Dragging HT or anyone at HTCs into another 190A-8 discussion, productive or not, is just that - dragged, by force. But I would love for their participation and/or resources to be actively involved in this discussion, however that is nobody's decision here to make so instead you get the nupties, like me.
Keep enjoying your jokes and laughs guys, it'll just make the next 190 thread that leads to nowhere show up that much sooner, and restock HTC's toilet paper supply. So the cycle continues.
Edit: Plazus and Shuffler, when's the last time I came in and pissed in a P-38's bowl of Cheerios in the wishlist forum? Remind me to return the most courteous favor.
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Quick... someone get the net.
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You're gosh dang right. You know all too well how often these SAPP jerks are in here petitioning HTC to take about 5k lbs off the top of the ol' J/L models. And the shame is that they get it too! I would link those results to better mouths and US favoritism. Get off our lawn, home wreckers.
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You're gosh dang right. You know all too well how often these SAPP jerks are in here petitioning HTC to take about 5k lbs off the top of the ol' J/L models. And the shame is that they get it too! I would link those results to better mouths and US favoritism. Get off our lawn, home wreckers.
Last time we talked about the weights of 38s, they added 600 pounds to the 38G. The SAPP 38 drivers don't complain about aircraft weight anymore. We learned our lesson :)
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What a setup for that bit of info! Hehe, carry on. Couldn't help myself there.
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It is obvious that fatigue over the subject from the community's majority and HT/HTC as a whole, if nothing else, seeds the feelings of dispair and frustration amongst the 190 lovers in this community. The fact we can't set half of our own supporters straight on the overweight issue and that the current model isn't glaringly overweight is another genuine source of disheartening and frustration.
Keep enjoying your jokes and laughs guys, it'll just make the next 190 thread that leads to nowhere show up that much sooner, and restock HTC's toilet paper supply. So the cycle continues.
My deepest, most sincere and heartfelt sympathy goes out to you and all those greatly affected by the 190A8s patheticness. Here is a pony to cheer you guys up.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-kWDmLmHx8Qw/TXrmrJxrJfI/AAAAAAAAADM/NOwhdsY8g0Q/s400/250px-PinkiePieHiRes.png)
Edit: Plazus and Shuffler, when's the last time I came in and pissed in a P-38's bowl of Cheerios in the wishlist forum? Remind me to return the most courteous favor.
Please link to me where I have ever made a post about the P38 being incorrectly modeled. Or anything incorrect about the P38 for that matter.
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Last time we talked about the weights of 38s, they added 600 pounds to the 38G. The SAPP 38 drivers don't complain about aircraft weight anymore. We learned our lesson :)
They forgot to add the weight of the giant slab of armored glass didn't they? ;)
Wiley.
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Just because a 190 can't out perform a 38 that is carrying bombs in a turn does not mean the 190 is overweight.
Weight changed greatly across the span of each set of aircraft. I believe AH just uses the most noted setups averaged. Of course that is just a guess as I do not have any more information than what they generally release to SAPP.
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Funny thing about a ditch, it's held up by two walls of contention.
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Paragraphs are your friend.
first post i read :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl