Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: swareiam on October 09, 2011, 09:47:23 PM
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All,
I know that you have heard this whine before. So, keep your shirt or skirt on and let me speak my piece. The La-7 should undoubtedly be perked. The only reason I didn't add this to a previous thread is because I didn't look a hard enough to find one. If the La-7 can out fly and out gun the Spitfire XIV, perk the La-7 or unperk the Spit XIV. We are talking about usual everyday LW MA flying as well. The La-7s short service record was clearly due to its unreliable engine and other general unservicability. Yet, it is one of the most powerful planes in the game. Not to mention its current popularity amongst players. How popular you ask, well let's see;
Plane Name Kills Deaths Kill/Death Ratio
Spitfire Mk XVI 2389 2252 1.06
La-7 3027 2215 1.37
Wow, as popular as or more than a Spit XVI :confused: . Okay, let's take two popular perk rides and see how their doing this month;
Plane Name Kills Deaths Kill/Death Ratio
F4U-4 521 183 2.83
Tempest 454 74 6.05
Keeping in mind the units above made a more substantial contibution to winning the war for the allies, which the La-7 did not. How is the Spitfire XIV doing this month;
Plane Name Kills Deaths Kill/Death Ratio
Spitfire Mk XIV 130 128 1.01
Especially seeing that the Spit XIV was a V1 chaser and not really a dogfighter like the VIII and IX. I digress, with the La-7s currently rated performance and statistics in the MA, it should be perked. If it is not to be perked, then the Spitfire XIV should loose its perk and be given to the Spitfire XVI. "Wonder planes should have a wonderful little perk on them". Closing comments; perk a plane that really deserves the respect of a perk. "Perk the La-7"...
This has been a public service announcement....
My bottle of Merlot is now empty. :D
:salute
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Nah, no need to perk the La7. However, I fully support reducing the ENY of the La7 to 3, the Spit16 to 3, and the P51D to 3. That alone will help.
The La7 is limited in its role. No worth while ord and not enough fuel for range.
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I think what keeps the LA-7 from being perked is it's short range on fuel.
I do agree that the Spit XIV should be unperked. The only advantage I've found it to have it it's performance at high alt. But this is AH where most fights are below 10K.
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Nah, no need to perk the La7. However, I fully support reducing the ENY of the La7 to 3, the Spit16 to 3, and the P51D to 3. That alone will help.
The La7 is limited in its role. No worth while ord and not enough fuel for range.
(http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/7377/spitcoffeerewuts576x416.png)
P-51D to three?!
There are only two 5 ENY fighters that are not perked, and that is the P-51D and the Spitfire Mk XVI. Comparing the Pony to the rest of the 5 ENY fighters, or to the only other unperked 5 ENY plane, it is totally outclassed.
(http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/6656/eny.png)
If anything, everything that's currently ENY 5 should be dropped to 3 and the P-51D can remain at ENY 5, or the P-51D can join the ranks of the ENY 8. It may have legs, endurance, and ord but the cards are stacked against it versus any of the other top dogs in the LWA. The only thing it has against any of the unperked rides is speed, and that's if it's flown right. That doesn't mean it wins all the time, it just means it can lose less.
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Nah, no need to perk the La7. However, I fully support reducing the ENY of the La7 to 3, the Spit16 to 3, and the P51D to 3. That alone will help.
The La7 is limited in its role. No worth while ord and not enough fuel for range.
You mean make the uber rides more available during unbalanced times of play? :huh
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GNucks,
The P-51D is, by far, the most used airplane in AH. The La-7 and Spitfire Mk XVI don't even approach the P-51D's usage numbers. The idea of raising its ENY is sheerly ridiculous.
swareiam,
Where are you getting the idea that the La-7 had a short service history and didn't contribute much? Don't mistake the small number of three gun La-7s as the sum total of the La-7's service. The two gun La-7 was far, far more common and built in large numbers. The engine is the same as the engine in the La-5FN.
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GNucks,
The P-51D is, by far, the most used airplane in AH. The La-7 and Spitfire Mk XVI don't even approach the P-51D's usage numbers. The idea of raising its ENY is sheerly ridiculous.
swareiam,
Where are you getting the idea that the La-7 had a short service history and didn't contribute much? Don't mistake the small number of three gun La-7s as the sum total of the La-7's service. The two gun La-7 was far, far more common and built in large numbers. The engine is the same as the engine in the La-5FN.
The p51's usage is most likely due to its World War 2 popularity more than its effectiveness in-game.
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swareiam,
Where are you getting the idea that the La-7 had a short service history and didn't contribute much? Don't mistake the small number of three gun La-7s as the sum total of the La-7's service. The two gun La-7 was far, far more common and built in large numbers. The engine is the same as the engine in the La-5FN.
Karnak,
Look it up yourself my friend. It doesn't matter the armament arrangement. Historical example, the final months of the war as the Russians began to close out against the Japanese. There were 313 La-7s made available for the campaign. The engineering of the aircraft was so bad, that by the time they were stage for the first battles there were only 65 or so available to begin the campaign. Plan a major campaign on those numbers...
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The p51's usage is most likely due to its World War 2 popularity more than its effectiveness in-game.
Partially, yes. That charge can also be leveled at the Spitfire though as the Spitfire was the most famous aircraft to come out of that war.
The P-51D is also very well suited to the game and thrives on its own merits. Famous aircraft that don't thrive on their own merits, such as the P-40, don't see much use in the game despite their fame.
Karnak,
Look it up yourself my friend. It doesn't matter the armament arrangement. Historical example, the final months of the war as the Russians began to close out against the Japanese. There were 313 La-7s made available for the campaign. The engineering of the aircraft was so bad, that by the time they were stage for the first battles there were only 65 or so available to begin the campaign. Plan a major campaign on those numbers...
How much of that had to do with the fact that they were in Siberia, very far from their support lines? What were their numbers against the Germans? Soviet quality was not up to US or UK standards. Thousands of La-7s were built.
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GNucks,
The P-51D is, by far, the most used airplane in AH. The La-7 and Spitfire Mk XVI don't even approach the P-51D's usage numbers. The idea of raising its ENY is sheerly ridiculous.
And frankly that's why I can understand that its ENY is 5, its usage and its attack power is incredible. I personally don't think it should be raised, but lowering it at all is crazy. That's what I was trying to say.
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And frankly that's why I can understand that its ENY is 5, its usage and its attack power is incredible. I personally don't think it should be raised, but lowering it at all is crazy. That's what I was trying to say.
I'm not saying I think anything should be lowered to ENY 3, but if HTC were to go that way the P-51D is the clear first choice.
I will note that 10 perks for killing a P-51D does sound nice though. :p
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Karnak,
Look it up yourself my friend. It doesn't matter the armament arrangement. Historical example, the final months of the war as the Russians began to close out against the Japanese. There were 313 La-7s made available for the campaign. The engineering of the aircraft was so bad, that by the time they were stage for the first battles there were only 65 or so available to begin the campaign. Plan a major campaign on those numbers...
The Soviets built over 5,000 La-7s during the war.
ack-ack
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I thought about this the other day. Don't get me wrong, i LOVE, L-O-V-E the P-51 Mustang, but it is simply too overused in this game. The P-51 is akin to the B-29, but the B-29 is almost always triple digit perks. I believe the Pony should come down to 3, or be perked something small, like 1 or 2 so if you lose, you're not getting them for free.
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No other place can go as fast, carry as much ord, go as far, maneuver as well, or is as versatile at all altitudes as the P51D. Forget the stats, I can make stats say anything I want them to say as well. I say the stats show that it is under-rated because it is the most used and that means a great many of the players flying it do not know how to use it, yet it scores as well as it does. What do the stats say for you?
The Spit16 is in a similar boat: for all it can do it is far too easy to just hop in to and go. It is the most capable plane in the game.
The La7 is handicapped by short legs and no worth while ordnance, yet the triple none mounted 20mm, very high speeds, great turning capability, and possibly the best acceleration in the game vaults it to a 5 ENY, imo.
The Me262, Spit 16, and P51D all need to have their ENY lowered to below 5 (the B29 is lonely at 2ENY), imo. The La7 deserves a 5. My opinions of course.
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Partially, yes. That charge can also be leveled at the Spitfire though as the Spitfire was the most famous aircraft to come out of that war.
The P-51D is also very well suited to the game and thrives on its own merits. Famous aircraft that don't thrive on their own merits, such as the P-40, don't see much use in the game despite their fame.
How much of that had to do with the fact that they were in Siberia, very far from their support lines? What were their numbers against the Germans? Soviet quality was not up to US or UK standards. Thousands of La-7s were built.
Well, I will agree with you on Soviet logistics at the end of WWII. That did have a barring on its historical significance and level of success overall. But, with 5000 some odd models built and in service, we still need to keep in mind that Russian aces, even at the end of the war, chose American planes to score in. When we're talking history versus playability of the game in the MA. The La-7 is a super plane, Uber-Uber even. There is almost no better plane to defend a base. In the right hands with 25% fuel and fifteen minutes or so, a CV operation to take a base can be thwarted. Its not perked and its not fair as compared to the majority of carrier based aircraft available.
"Perk it!"
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No other place can go as fast, carry as much ord, go as far, maneuver as well, or is as versatile at all altitudes as the P51D. Forget the stats, I can make stats say anything I want them to say as well.
Doesnt the p47N carry more ords than the P51D, along with faster top speed at alt than the pony?
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The La7 is handicapped by short legs and no worth while ordnance, yet the triple none mounted 20mm, very high speeds, great turning capability, and possibly the best acceleration in the game vaults it to a 5 ENY, imo.
The Me262, Spit 16, and P51D all need to have their ENY lowered to below 5 (the B29 is lonely at 2ENY), imo. The La7 deserves a 5. My opinions of course.
I'm not sure how the P-51D made it into the conversation. The Mustang should stay the same, ENY of 5 with no perk. Not really the focus of the topic. Place the La-7 at an ENY of 5 and a small perk to fly, is good for the game. Unperk the Spitfire XIV, its record shows that you load up, wheels up and blew up. There is nothing to substantiate its perkability.
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Well, I will agree with you on Soviet logistics at the end of WWII. That did have a barring on its historical significance and level of success overall. But, with 5000 some odd models built and in service, we still need to keep in mind that Russian aces, even at the end of the war, chose American planes to score in. When we're talking history versus playability of the game in the MA. The La-7 is a super plane, Uber-Uber even. There is almost no better plane to defend a base. In the right hands with 25% fuel and fifteen minutes or so, a CV operation to take a base can be thwarted. Its not perked and its not fair as compared to the majority of carrier based aircraft available.
"Perk it!"
Erm, the top Russian ace flew the La-5 and then the La-7.
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Erm, the top Russian ace flew the La-5 and then the La-7.
Ivan Kozhedub?
The hero of the Soviet Union and Airacobra Killer extraordinaire.
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Unperk the Spit 14, leave the LA as it is.
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[SNIP]
The La-7s short service record was clearly due to its unreliable engine and other general unservicability. Yet, it is one of the most powerful planes in the game.
[SNIP]
Plane Name Kills Deaths Kill/Death Ratio
F4U-4 521 183 2.83
Tempest 454 74 6.05
Keeping in mind the units above made a more substantial contibution to winning the war for the allies, which the La-7 did not. How is the Spitfire XIV doing this month;
[SNIP]
I'd not say that the Spitifre XIV, Tempest or F4U-4 made a greater contribution to the war effort. In fact, quite the reverse.
Combat debuts;
Spitfire XIV: January 1944
Tempest V: April 1944
La-7: September 1944
F4U-4: March 1945
Aerial kill claims for the Tempest V were around 250-260 aircraft (not including V1s). I've not had time to tot up all the Mk XIV claims, but as there were never more than 150 in service before 1944 and the RAF only claimed about 750 fighter kills in 1945, I'd not be too surprised if it was similarly low. I've not got F4U-4 kills specifically, but total USN F4U claims (-1 and -4) for 1945 were 1008 aircraft.
La-7 kill claims are a little harder to track down, but claims against the Japanese alone were around 280 aircraft, which would make it a more prolific fighter than the Tempest Mk V, at the very least.
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Spit14 should not be perked
likewise for LA7
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Spit14 should not be perked
likewise for LA7
unperk the spit14.
Perk the 16.
:noid :bolt:
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Karnak,
Look it up yourself my friend. It doesn't matter the armament arrangement. Historical example, the final months of the war as the Russians began to close out against the Japanese. There were 313 La-7s made available for the campaign. The engineering of the aircraft was so bad, that by the time they were stage for the first battles there were only 65 or so available to begin the campaign. Plan a major campaign on those numbers...
The End of the War Campaign was but a tiny fraction of the almost 5,000 La-7's built during WWII....
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The End of the War Campaign was but a tiny fraction of the almost 5,000 La-7's built during WWII....
This was just an example of the La-7s high average unavailability. Historically, such a super fighter should have been more effective in it's role. From the beginning to the end of it operational service life it had high unserviceability numbers. In other words 5000 planes was more like 3000 or less operationally. If you can't fix it. You can't fly it.
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Doesnt the p47N carry more ords than the P51D, along with faster top speed at alt than the pony?
Think total capability. The P47N can carry more ord, has more firepower, and can match the range of the P51, sure. But it is slower, climbs much slower, turns worse, rolls worse, is horrible at slow speeds. The point is that the P51D can carry almost 3000lbs in ordnance, go as fast, and be as maneuverable as it is, etc etc.
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FYI:
(http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/3588/94347407.jpg)
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Ivan Kozhedub?
The hero of the Soviet Union and Airacobra Killer extraordinaire.
There were far more Soviet aces flying Soviet built planes than Soviet aces flying Lend Lease planes. I don't know where you're getting your World War II aviation information but where ever you're getting it, I would suggest looking for better, more factually accurate sources.
ack-ack
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FYI:
(http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/3588/94347407.jpg)
LOOSCHY! I knew you'd be along with a handy dandy chart of some sort. :aok
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Spit14 isnt easy to fly, that is why its K/D is low. To 109 dweebs the Spit14 is a scary bird if a god stick is in it, but an easy kill if an average stick is in it.
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There were far more Soviet aces flying Soviet built planes than Soviet aces flying Lend Lease planes. I don't know where you're getting your World War II aviation information but where ever you're getting it, I would suggest looking for better, more factually accurate sources.
ack-ack
Ack,
My apologies, I meant Aleksandr I. Pokryshkin second leading scorer in the VVS. Ivan Kozhedub was an La pilot his entire career with 62 kills. Highest allied scorer of the war.
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Spit14 isnt easy to fly, that is why its K/D is low. To 109 dweebs the Spit14 is a scary bird if a god stick is in it, but an easy kill if an average stick is in it.
That perfectly justifies the Spitfire Mk XIV being perked.
Wait....
No, it doesn't.
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I gave up trying to get the la7 perked years ago. :noid
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I gave up trying to get the la7 perked years ago. :noid
You did give it a great shot. Much better than the guys who try to do it on the forums. :p
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In a fight with an La7 I lost the advantage in my spit14 and I was outclassed by a superior pilot (I think it was Hoagi). Anyways he had me saddled at about 600m back so I hit the wep and went into auto-climb, then just walked away from him. Nothing short of a ME163 can out climb the spit14, thats worth some perks to me.
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Thread summary: P-51D pilot wants the only plane that can run his precious shiny down to be perked. :salute
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Thread summary: P-51D pilot wants the only plane that can run his precious shiny down to be perked. :salute
... and your counter to their proposal is?????
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... and your counter to their proposal is?????
perk the pony. :noid
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exactly. :)
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I hope I'm not the only one who sees there is a delightful irony here that the OP (flying the single best plane out of the nonperked set with the highest impact on the game by a wide margin: the P-51D) wants the only plane that has an advantage in two critical areas over said plane to be essentially removed from the regular game. ;)
I'm not saying the 51 should be perked.. but as long as it isn't the Lala should never be touched. It is inferior to the 51D in almost every way.
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You're right on the money, leitwolf. 51 drivers always claim that the plane isn't all that good and just flown because of its wartime fame. Yeah right.
The planes that see the most use in the game are also coincidentally, the most effective to succeed in for the average player. The 51 is EZ mode. Get to the fight fast. Zoom way up high. Team up with other high 51s. Pounce on lower cons. Run like hell.
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I hope I'm not the only one who sees there is a delightful irony here that the OP (flying the single best plane out of the nonperked set with the highest impact on the game by a wide margin: the P-51D) wants the only plane that has an advantage in two critical areas over said plane to be essentially removed from the regular game. ;)
I'm not saying the 51 should be perked.. but as long as it isn't the Lala should never be touched. It is inferior to the 51D in almost every way.
leitwolf,
Nicely stated... But that is not the case and far from the truth. The P-51D and La-7 is a fair fight. It could go either way depending upon the pilots level of skill. I think you can agree to that. The point is much larger. When a capture operation lifts from a CV on a non-land locked base. The attacking force, at least as of late, is getting overwhelmed with a bunch of La-7 pilots with 25% fuel loads and a place to refuel and rearm sitting right under them. You might as well be sittting in a F-80. At speed there are not too many planes in the current carrier stable that out perform the La-7 in the hands of two average pilots. Yes, the La-7 is quite the asset for defense of just about eveything. The point of this thread has nothing to do with individually wanting to neuter the La-7, to promote the effectiveness of another SINGLE airframe. Just to make it more fair for mission organizers on all three sides. Last time I checked a Mustang couldn't take off from a CV... :headscratch:
I hope that you can see the point.
:salute
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I think you end up with an infinite regression in your scenario. Say we perk the La7, you won't see it defending any longer. Next in line would be .. I dunno.. say the K4 or D9, both outclass every carrier plane save the 4-hog. You perk those. Goto 10. We all end up in I-16s. :)
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Think total capability. The P47N can carry more ord, has more firepower, and can match the range of the P51, sure. But it is slower, climbs much slower, turns worse, rolls worse, is horrible at slow speeds. The point is that the P51D can carry almost 3000lbs in ordnance, go as fast, and be as maneuverable as it is, etc etc.
F4U-4. :P Only thing it lacks over the 51 is range. But the -4 is also perked.
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I think you end up with an infinite regression in your scenario. Say we perk the La7, you won't see it defending any longer. Next in line would be .. I dunno.. say the K4 or D9, both outclass every carrier plane save the 4-hog. You perk those. Goto 10. We all end up in I-16s. :)
I am pretty sure that is not the case. You perk the La-7 at a beginning value between three and five and folks will still fly it, just not so many. It's that perk plane mystique. "Wow that's perked, I'll fly an alternate." The value floats with ENY. The Pony "D" can defend for sure. But the La-7 deserves the respect of a perk value. For the simple drawback of range, the La-7 is shelved as one greatest planes ever in this game. Check the statistics this month, the numbers don't lie. Too many maintenance and logistics problems in historical terms to get it anywhere close to that honor. But when it worked it really worked... :aok
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+1 to give advantage to the Thunderbolt's!
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I am pretty sure that is not the case. You perk the La-7 at a beginning value between three and five and folks will still fly it, just not so many. It's that perk plane mystique. "Wow that's perked, I'll fly an alternate." The value floats with ENY. The Pony "D" can defend for sure. But the La-7 deserves the respect of a perk value. For the simple drawback of range, the La-7 is shelved as one greatest planes ever in this game. Check the statistics this month, the numbers don't lie. Too many maintenance and logistics problems in historical terms to get it anywhere close to that honor. But when it worked it really worked... :aok
Well, we're going in circles here. :)
Following your own argument, the "statistics card", the first plane to be perked on that account would be the D-Pony. Look at Lusche's chart, no other plane comes close. You cannot make this argument without going through the 51D first.
Ok maybe you want performance to be a criteria not usage. The La7 is good at low alts no doubt about that. But why draw the line at the La7 only? What does it make worthy of perking but not the 109K4?
My point is that "i don't like it" is not a good enough reason to needlessly trespass on the diversity of planes in the game. Perking (even if done mildly) axes its usage (see: F4U1C). So what trait makes the Lala stick out? Where is the bar and what are the objective criteria?
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Well, we're going in circles here. :)
Following your own argument, the "statistics card", the first plane to be perked on that account would be the D-Pony. Look at Lusche's chart, no other plane comes close. You cannot make this argument without going through the 51D first.
Ok maybe you want performance to be a criteria not usage. The La7 is good at low alts no doubt about that. But why draw the line at the La7 only? What does it make worthy of perking but not the 109K4?
My point is that "i don't like it" is not a good enough reason to needlessly trespass on the diversity of planes in the game. Perking (even if done mildly) axes its usage (see: F4U1C). So what trait makes the Lala stick out? Where is the bar and what are the objective criteria?
Well that is the whole point. "This thread is not about a popularity contest." We're not going around in circles, you're failing to see the real point. This thread didn't start off taking about the Pony "D". Someone else brought it up in a side bar conversation. So, whether HT should reevaluate every hot LW ride is really not my concern. I am talking about one based on it's closest peer group, perked and unperked. Besides, why would you perk the K-4 when maybe 8 to 9 percent of the players really know how to fly it. That's like perking the Spit XIV. :huh The Germans during the war didn't fly it as creatively as some of these guys. You not liking it is great! That is what diversity is all about, difference in opinions, values, cultures and general understanding of the same subjects. What I do fail to see is any mention of the point of La-7s defending against current carrier borne aircraft other than the PERKED 4-Hog... The only leviathan that cometh from the sea. Flying an La-7 is fairly close, or at least in the same yard as Spit XVI. The relative ease of use, speed, and maneuverability are different but close. The low speed handling characterizes of the La-7 and firepower make it a terror that deserves the respect of a perk.
Final point, one does not capture a base from 10k and above. So eliminating all of the other circumstances and factors that were previously mentioned...
"Perk it!"
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All this talk about perking the La7 and yet no one yet has been able to give any proof how the La7 unbalances the game play unperked. I've been waiting for years and years for this bit of information and so far no one has been able to provide any.
ack-ack
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All this talk about perking the La7 and yet no one yet has been able to give any proof how the La7 unbalances the game play unperked. I've been waiting for years and years for this bit of information and so far no one has been able to provide any.
ack-ack
it denies them their greatness. :noid
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All,
I know that you have heard this whine before. So, keep your shirt or skirt on and let me speak my piece. The La-7 should undoubtedly be perked. The only reason I didn't add this to a previous thread is because I didn't look a hard enough to find one. If the La-7 can out fly and out gun the Spitfire XIV, perk the La-7 or unperk the Spit XIV. We are talking about usual everyday LW MA flying as well. The La-7s short service record was clearly due to its unreliable engine and other general unservicability. Yet, it is one of the most powerful planes in the game. Not to mention its current popularity amongst players. How popular you ask, well let's see;
Plane Name Kills Deaths Kill/Death Ratio
Spitfire Mk XVI 2389 2252 1.06
La-7 3027 2215 1.37
Wow, as popular as or more than a Spit XVI :confused: . Okay, let's take two popular perk rides and see how their doing this month;
Plane Name Kills Deaths Kill/Death Ratio
F4U-4 521 183 2.83
Tempest 454 74 6.05
Keeping in mind the units above made a more substantial contibution to winning the war for the allies, which the La-7 did not. How is the Spitfire XIV doing this month;
Plane Name Kills Deaths Kill/Death Ratio
Spitfire Mk XIV 130 128 1.01
Especially seeing that the Spit XIV was a V1 chaser and not really a dogfighter like the VIII and IX. I digress, with the La-7s currently rated performance and statistics in the MA, it should be perked. If it is not to be perked, then the Spitfire XIV should loose its perk and be given to the Spitfire XVI. "Wonder planes should have a wonderful little perk on them". Closing comments; perk a plane that really deserves the respect of a perk. "Perk the La-7"...
This has been a public service announcement....
My bottle of Merlot is now empty. :D
:salute
Are you aware that, based on what you are saying, basicly every 109 and 190 should be perked? So should the P-38, the The F4U-1, the C205, and others? Any one of them will out fly a Spit 14. Hell, I've outflown a Spit 14 with a P-40E. Guess it needs a perk price attached :rolleyes:.
Spit 14 is perked because we would (probably) see a ton of them, due to the stellar rate of climb, improved speed and acceleration, and high altitude preformance. That being said, I would love to see this, since spit 14's make for some easy meat.