Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: TDeacon on April 10, 2012, 05:40:37 PM
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I think this would improve GV gameplay. As I mentioned in another thread, the first thing I do in a GV situation is up Storches (not caring if I die) until I have informed myself as to the opponents’ location(s). This significantly ruins the opportunities for surprise for the opposing GVs, especially in a defensive situation. It’s too easy.
So, perhaps we should lightly perk the Storch. I know that even a perk cost of one significantly deters me (for psychological reasons) from choosing a plane or GV, especially the latter where survival is significantly influenced by chance elements (such as the absence or presence of planes). Others may respond similarly, reducing the number of Storch sorties.
I have a particularly depressing memory of a GV battle where my Storch ruined things for the attackers. In this particular case, there were about 6-8 of them, including 2 Tiger Is and a Tiger II (!!), operating from a spawn point, and thus facing almost certain loss. The Tigers were trying to work their way around a flank, to a position where some high ground gave them a nice view over our base. Assuming that this was intentional, it was a “brave” thing to do, and deserved some sort of success. Instead, my Storch(es) laid down a trail of orange smoke markers, leading to their eventual demise, and presumably ruining the game experience of the Tiger guys. No skill required on my part. I still feel bad about that, but the rules allowed it, so I did it. I might not have done so had the Storch been perked from 1 to 5 points.
MH
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They could have killed your Stork with pintle guns, or had a buddy bring an AA chassis.
Then you would have been out 1 perk point. :bhead
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By that logic, we should perk every plane because they have the ability to shoot others and ruin their good time. You used that thing exactly as it was intended, it's not your fault the tiger guys put themselves in a dangerous situation and didn't bring any support.
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dood, you do know that the only reason the storch was added (other than to make airplanes lawndart into the ground :rofl) is to spot gvs? and they are really easy to kill. hell one time i passed by one at over 500 mph and the wings fell out when it crashed into me.
the introduction of the storch was to lower the rate at which gv's are being bombed. now, i fly a pony low and I can see most gv's before icon range only based on they're shooting at me. so if you pay attention specially werbies and hold fire till 600 or 800 instead of 2k then i would probably rethink my strategy.
as for your wish, well who really is not going to up a gv because the perk value is 1. even the guy that just joined and is on for 5 minutes had more than 1 perk. some of us have thousands that we never use.
semp
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By that logic, we should perk every plane because they have the ability to shoot others and ruin their good time. You used that thing exactly as it was intended, it's not your fault the tiger guys put themselves in a dangerous situation and didn't bring any support.
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No, it's a question of applying the principle behind perk rides to the Storch, for the usual reasons. They're a bit too easy. Perking them lightly would bring things back into line, without completely eliminating Storches from the game.
MH
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<snip>
as for your wish, well who really is not going to up a gv because the perk value is 1. even the guy that just joined and is on for 5 minutes had more than 1 perk. some of us have thousands that we never use.
semp
In my case, I pick a Panzer IV over a Sherman 76mm 90% of the time, because the latter has a perk cost of 1. Perhaps I am wierd, but that's how my mind works. Perhaps others are similar. :-)
MH
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No, it's a question of applying the principle behind perk rides to the Storch, for the usual reasons. They're a bit too easy. Perking them lightly would bring things back into line, without completely eliminating Storches from the game.
MH
If the storch was over balancing play then it would deserve a perk of some value. However, it is not. It is there to spoil other players fun by finding and marking tank, even perk ones. I think it gets used less due to the fact it messes up your "bomber" score more than any other consideration.
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No, it's a question of applying the principle behind perk rides to the Storch, for the usual reasons. They're a bit too easy. Perking them lightly would bring things back into line, without completely eliminating Storches from the game.
MH
I just can't get behind "too easy" for an aircraft that doesn't have any offensive armament. I have to agree with Fugi on this as well, the storch can be balanced very easily by air or ground choices.
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<snip>
It is there to spoil other players fun by finding and marking tank, even perk ones.
<snip>
Insightful comment...
MH
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I just can't get behind "too easy" for an aircraft that doesn't have any offensive armament. I have to agree with Fugi on this as well, the storch can be balanced very easily by air or ground choices.
My point is it doesn't seem to be adequately "balanced" in its unperked state, because you can re-up an infinite number of times, with practically no transit time delay. There is no disincentive to expending them like ammunition, which is basically what I do...
Remember what the Storch does; it mostly eliminates the ability of GVs to remain concealed. In turn, this largely eliminates "hide-and-seek-type" GV action (reducing "fun"), and lays the GVs open to inevitable destruction by attack planes (further reducing "fun", except for the pilots of said attack planes).
MH
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They could have killed your Stork with pintle guns, or had a buddy bring an AA chassis.
Then you would have been out 1 perk point. :bhead
Not as easy as you make it sound. Usually one approaches the GV in question from ground level on the opposite side of a nearby clump of trees, so they usually can't stop you from marking their position. Another technique is to mark the position they are heading towards, thus remaining farther away from them, while still ruining their approach.
MH
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While I disagree with perking the Storch in any way, I do somewhat agree with the OP that the Storch in fact adds another layer on a certain gameplay problem when it comes to GV: The balance between attack & defense and the resulting consequences of gameplay.
Now more than ever, an attacker has basically no chance to get away alive, unless the base has been captured. If you spawn in, you are already dead. This massively discourages the use of perked tanks in an offensive situation, while the defender can happily be a concrete sitter in his shiny Tiger 2. This in turn encourage classic "horde tactics", bring friends in planes and flatten the base. There is almost no reason to counter a defending tiger by bringing a perk tank on nyour own. While the defender has a high chance retaining the perks, the attacker has basically none - ot at least the Fi 156 ensures he never can outmaneuver maneuver the defenders or get enough speraration for a "landing".
But imho this general problem has to be solved on a different level as well, with a more "integrated" solution.
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<snip>
But imho this general problem has to be solved on a different level as well, with a more "integrated" solution.
Yes, like a guaranteed safe landing pad, slightly to the rear of the spawn point.
MH
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Yes, like a guaranteed safe landing pad, slightly to the rear of the spawn point.
MH
I'm afraid this could lead to the defende4rs sitting on base and the "attackers" sitting on the landing pad. Personally, I would wish for a less static GV game ;)
I'm thinking about a very different way right now.... :old:
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I'm afraid this could lead to the defende4rs sitting on base and the "attackers" sitting on the landing pad. Personally, I would wish for a less static GV game ;)
I'm thinking about a very different way right now.... :old:
The "landing pad" would not be close enough to the base, or anything else useful, such that anyone would be motivated to "sit on it". Not saying this is the best solution, but it is certainly one of the simplest. BTW, this is only a solution to the "how to escape" problem, and not the the overall "Storch exposes all" problem, so the Storch should still be lightly perked.
MH
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While I disagree with perking the Storch in any way, I do somewhat agree with the OP that the Storch in fact adds another layer on a certain gameplay problem when it comes to GV: The balance between attack & defense and the resulting consequences of gameplay.
Now more than ever, an attacker has basically no chance to get away alive, unless the base has been captured. If you spawn in, you are already dead. This massively discourages the use of perked tanks in an offensive situation, while the defender can happily be a concrete sitter in his shiny Tiger 2. This in turn encourage classic "horde tactics", bring friends in planes and flatten the base. There is almost no reason to counter a defending tiger by bringing a perk tank on nyour own. While the defender has a high chance retaining the perks, the attacker has basically none - ot at least the Fi 156 ensures he never can outmaneuver maneuver the defenders or get enough speraration for a "landing".
But imho this general problem has to be solved on a different level as well, with a more "integrated" solution.
I think it just creates another problem that must e solved to do the same things you use to do i the game. As an example, we had very few ack guns at a field. It was an easy matter to make a few passes and have the ack down. Then HTC came along and added a "crap load" <--- technical number) of ack guns and that just didn't work any more. People solved the problem by timing their runs and going in together. Now 3 guys can make a few passes and all the ack is down, or you can dive in with 30 guys and make one pass :noid
The point is people will have to find a way to adapt. The old way guaranties that the attacking tank is dead before it spawns ( according to Lusche), maybe the solution is to bring a wirble along just to kill storches. Maybe a porking mission is needed first by air to inhibit the launching of storches. Maybe and friendly fighter to provide air cover.
If it IS unbalanced I'm sure HTC will take a look and make changes. If only we had some data showing how GV's being killed by air and ground have increased or decreased since the addition of the storch.... maybe in a "pie chart" form to ake it easier to understand. :devil
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The point is people will have to find a way to adapt. The old way guaranties that the attacking tank is dead before it spawns ( according to Lusche), maybe the solution is to bring a wirble along just to kill storches. Maybe a porking mission is needed first by air to inhibit the launching of storches. Maybe and friendly fighter to provide air cover.
If it IS unbalanced I'm sure HTC will take a look and make changes. If only we had some data showing how GV's being killed by air and ground have increased or decreased since the addition of the storch.... maybe in a "pie chart" form to ake it easier to understand. :devil
Yes, people will adapt, but they do adapt in different ways, which may less than optimal or intended by original design. For example, players did very well "adapt" to the changes in strats and the new towns... ;)
Also not every gameplay issue is quantifyable that easily. It's not about any number of kills, it's in this case more about how they are achived, what kind of combat oppotunities are being left. In this case specifically it's not about GV being more or less killed by planes.
It's about giving an incentive to an attacker to spawn his tank to an enemy base to ATTACK, preferably in the same kind of perked GV the defender is using, to create some more intense combat situation. And wirbels do not help against that specific "landing" problem, and neither does killing the Storch's hangar. In the end, the only viable option is tot totally flatten that base with bombs, then overrunning it.
But I also want to see more opportunities for low to med key action. I'd like to see more "balanced" matchups, especially perk tanks being used to counter the enemie's perk tanks.
The best "solution" I see without meddling with any game mechanisms is in fact a map design one. We need more maps with a LOT more setups like V135-V136 on Ozkansas - 2 opposing Vbases spawning towards a center area. That way both sides can retreat, can flank, have acess to the Storch and so on. That's simply the place wher you have in fact the most varied tank combat environment... until one side brings in a CV and the place is captured.
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<snip>
The best "solution" I see without meddling with any game mechanisms is in fact a map design one. We need more maps with a LOT more setups like V135-V136 on Ozkansas - 2 opposing Vbases spawning towards a center area. That way both sides can retreat, can flank, have acess to the Storch and so on. That's simply the place wher you have in fact the most varied tank combat environment... until one side brings in a CV and the place is captured.
This is not a global solution. It requires someone to make new maps, which will not happen. It also requires elimination of the current maps, which will not happen. Ideally, a global problem requires a global solution. The simplest such solution is to perk the Storch. A good adjunct solution is to put "safe evacuation pads" several thousand yards behind the spawn points.
MH
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The simplest such solution is to perk the Storch.
This is no solution at all.
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<snip>
The point is people will have to find a way to adapt. The old way guaranties that the attacking tank is dead before it spawns ( according to Lusche), maybe the solution is to bring a wirble along just to kill storches. Maybe a porking mission is needed first by air to inhibit the launching of storches. Maybe and friendly fighter to provide air cover.
If it IS unbalanced I'm sure HTC will take a look and make changes. If only we had some data showing how GV's being killed by air and ground have increased or decreased since the addition of the storch.... maybe in a "pie chart" form to ake it easier to understand. :devil
You could use this "reasoning" on any proposed perk situation. For example, let's remove perks from the 262. People "will find a way to adapt". All they have to do is arrange a mission consisting of 300 P51s and converge on the 262 from all directions. Brilliant...
MH
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In my opinion, the only risk to a GV that the Storch presents is revealing the GVs location. There still must be another GV or aircraft to make the kill. The Storch gains nothing in the transaction.
Furthermore, a tank with a pintle gun can shoot a Storch down fairly easily. Any of the anti aircraft GVs can make very short work of the Storch.
The Storch is a sitting duck for ANY armed aircraft, including such planes as the D3A and the JU87.
A perk is certainly not needed.
Is there no end to the whines of the GV set?
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This is no solution at all.
Sure it is, even if only a partial one. Perking reduces use.
The solution to your "escape" issue requires something more, such as my "safe evacuation pads" idea which you neglected to include in your quote above.
MH
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In my opinion, the only risk to a GV that the Storch presents is revealing the GVs location. There still must be another GV or aircraft to make the kill. The Storch gains nothing in the transaction.
Revealing the GVs location is all. They are an easy kill to any attack plane. With respect to other GVs, once spotted and marked, it's like trying to box against an opponent with a blindfold on. The opponent has a huge advantage, as he knows where you are, and you don't know where he is.
Furthermore, a tank with a pintle gun can shoot a Storch down fairly easily. Any of the anti aircraft GVs can make very short work of the Storch.
You clearly have little knowledge of the dynamics of Storch use. Anything is easy to kill if it is used unskillfully.
Is there no end to the whines of the GV set?
Is there no end to the whines of the attack AC set? :-)
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(http://i.imgur.com/eNRat.jpg)
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LOL
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In my case, I pick a Panzer IV over a Sherman 76mm 90% of the time, because the latter has a perk cost of 1. Perhaps I am wierd, but that's how my mind works. Perhaps others are similar. :-)
MH
dood you can get 4 perks just by resuplying a base with an m3. upping a tiger an getting 20 kills got me less perks than that.
semp
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I disagree. A Kampfgruppe needs to be a combined arms team, and include anti-aircraft defense: Ostwind, Wirbelwind, M-16. When stationary, a Wirblewind can hit and kill a Storch beyond icon range, and I have the scars to prove it. ;)
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In my opinion, the only risk to a GV that the Storch presents is revealing the GVs location. There still must be another GV or aircraft to make the kill. The Storch gains nothing in the transaction.
Furthermore, a tank with a pintle gun can shoot a Storch down fairly easily. Any of the anti aircraft GVs can make very short work of the Storch.
The Storch is a sitting duck for ANY armed aircraft, including such planes as the D3A and the JU87.
A perk is certainly not needed.
Is there no end to the whines of the GV set?
Nope whiners will continue to whine, I have had NO problems with ground vehicles since the storch was added, when attacking an enemy base I make sure a friendly in a fighter is looming near bye, as for the storch - it does not change the balance of ground vehicles.
I can simply shut down my engine and still hear every tank within 5k, so the storch pointing me out only brings the enemy to me to pick off.
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-1
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Yes, people will adapt, but they do adapt in different ways, which may less than optimal or intended by original design. For example, players did very well "adapt" to the changes in strats and the new towns... ;)
Also not every gameplay issue is quantifyable that easily. It's not about any number of kills, it's in this case more about how they are achived, what kind of combat oppotunities are being left. In this case specifically it's not about GV being more or less killed by planes.
It's about giving an incentive to an attacker to spawn his tank to an enemy base to ATTACK, preferably in the same kind of perked GV the defender is using, to create some more intense combat situation. And wirbels do not help against that specific "landing" problem, and neither does killing the Storch's hangar. In the end, the only viable option is tot totally flatten that base with bombs, then overrunning it.
But I also want to see more opportunities for low to med key action. I'd like to see more "balanced" matchups, especially perk tanks being used to counter the enemie's perk tanks.
The best "solution" I see without meddling with any game mechanisms is in fact a map design one. We need more maps with a LOT more setups like V135-V136 on Ozkansas - 2 opposing Vbases spawning towards a center area. That way both sides can retreat, can flank, have acess to the Storch and so on. That's simply the place wher you have in fact the most varied tank combat environment... until one side brings in a CV and the place is captured.
They DID adapt to both the strats and the new towns. The strats are basically ignored because they were really only hit as milk runs. I think the idea was to centralize them to make it easier to know where the attack will be so more fights would ensue. The problem was they were there for fights, but for easy points/perks, so they dryed up. The towns were much harded to take down and even so to KNOW it was down. HTC adjusted it and added the flag colors, and the players adapted by bringing more players. More players in a smaller area makes it easier to find combat/fights.
I agree, it would be MUCH better if players played the game more evenly. They never spawn camped in the war, why should we have that in a war game? I think the Storch was added to maybe bring a bit more of a "ground game" into play, something other than the same old spawn camp. I'd like to see the spawn points either moved farther apart, or protected by a game control. FORCE the players into using tactics and strategies instead of just point and shoot. If your bringing tigers to the battle you better bring support to protect them and resupply them. Much like flying a box or two of B17s to the starts without escort, in most cases you can kiss them things goodbye.
You could use this "reasoning" on any proposed perk situation. For example, let's remove perks from the 262. People "will find a way to adapt". All they have to do is arrange a mission consisting of 300 P51s and converge on the 262 from all directions. Brilliant...
MH
Thats not how they would adapt, they would all be in 262's, pretty much the reason 262's are perked. I think you are over estimating the use of the storches. If used well yes they can be a pain, but most people are NOT going to use them that way. Of the major tank battles I've seen at the "usual sites" on the different maps since the storches release I have seen very few flying. This last Saturday is the first time I shot one down, and there were only 2 in the area with a half dozen tanks. 30 miles away there was a battle at a spawn that had well over 50 tanks and not a single storch in the air. Should the storches start over powering the tanks ablity to get in and have some battles you could see a change, but I just think it is very un likely that it will become a problem.
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dood you can get 4 perks just by resuplying a base with an m3. upping a tiger an getting 20 kills got me less perks than that.
semp
No argument there. However, you are missing the point of this discussion, which is whether lightly perking the Storch will improve or harm gameplay. The discussion has nothing to do with the fact that earning perks is (by HTC design) easy. It has to do with the *psychological* consequences to players of perking a ride, and the resulting changed useage patterns.
MH
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No argument there. However, you are missing the point of this discussion, which is whether lightly perking the Storch will improve or harm gameplay. The discussion has nothing to do with the fact that earning perks is (by HTC design) easy. It has to do with the *psychological* consequences to players of perking a ride, and the resulting changed useage patterns.
MH
you still havent made a point over why the storch should be perked. it has no guns, it has no bombs. all it can do is drop smoke and it can easily be killed by either tank mg fire or fighters.
which usage patterns you want to change. all it's supposed to do is spot gvs, that's the only reason for it being here and that is the reason the gv icon range was reduced. to force people to use the storch to find gvs.
semp
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you still havent made a point over why the storch should be perked. it has no guns, it has no bombs. all it can do is drop smoke and it can easily be killed by either tank mg fire or fighters.
which usage patterns you want to change. all it's supposed to do is spot gvs, that's the only reason for it being here and that is the reason the gv icon range was reduced. to force people to use the storch to find gvs.
semp
I alluded to the reason in one of my earlier posts. The reason is to take advantage of the typical player's psychological response to a 1-point perk cost, resulting in slightly less use of the Storch. In turn, this would slightly increase the ability of opposing GVs to remain hidden (critically important, and this has nothing to do with Storch guns or bombs). In particular, it would deter the type of usage *I myself* am guilty of, where I use them as "ammunition" without fear of loss. I do this because they cost nothing; I care nothing for bomber or any other score, and the transit time to where they are used is negligible.
I don’t want to eliminate them completely, just to make them be slightly less likely to be used in certain situations. Based on my observations of when I myself, and others tend to use them, I think that a slight perk cost might nudge the game in a better direction. This is a tweak to game play, not a major change. Honestly, I am not clear as to why some of you guys oppose it; you will still be able to bomb and strafe GVs to your hearts' content.
MH
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I alluded to the reason in one of my earlier posts. The reason is to take advantage of the typical player's psychological response to a 1-point perk cost, resulting in slightly less use of the Storch. In turn, this would slightly increase the ability of opposing GVs to remain hidden (critically important, and this has nothing to do with Storch guns or bombs). In particular, it would deter the type of usage *I myself* am guilty of, where I use them as "ammunition" without fear of loss. I do this because they cost nothing; I care nothing for bomber or any other score, and the transit time to where they are used is negligible.
I don’t want to eliminate them completely, just to make them be slightly less likely to be used in certain situations. Based on my observations of when I myself, and others tend to use them, I think that a slight perk cost might nudge the game in a better direction. This is a tweak to game play, not a major change. Honestly, I am not clear as to why some of you guys oppose it; you will still be able to bomb and strafe GVs to your hearts' content.
MH
ok one more time. the reason the gv icon range was reduced was to allow for observation airplanes like the storch to be used. that is the only reason why the storch can see further than any other airplane.
semp
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ok one more time. the reason the gv icon range was reduced was to allow for observation airplanes like the storch to be used. that is the only reason why the storch can see further than any other airplane.
semp
What is the point of this comment??? This thread has nothing to do with *why* the storch was inttroduced; which is common knowledge. Instead, this thread concerns whether slightly less prolifigate use would be beneficial to the game overall.
MH
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You could use this "reasoning" on any proposed perk situation. For example, let's remove perks from the 262. People "will find a way to adapt". All they have to do is arrange a mission consisting of 300 P51s and converge on the 262 from all directions. Brilliant...
MH
You were holding your own quite nicely until this point.
How on Earth are you going to compare a perked Stork to a perked 262? It's un-possible.
Start over.
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a) the Storch is easy to shoot down. Any GV and Any AC can kill the Storch. The Storch can kill nobody but another Storch who follows to closely.
b) the Storch is only available on the defensive due to spawn location, flight times and vulnerability. I have flown it to enemy fields on some of the smaller maps. Spent 30 minutes flying and 10 seconds on station before being killed by an plane without helping my side at all.
c) a GV can hide from a Storch in trees and buildings. You won't see it without overflying it and the Storch will be dead soon enough.
d) any gv group that brings even an M16 will find itself protected from a Storch.
e) a Storch does not have the ability to earn a perk. Every other aircraft or gv that cost a perk can also earn the perks it cost.
shdo
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a) the Storch is easy to shoot down. Any GV and Any AC can kill the Storch. The Storch can kill nobody but another Storch who follows to closely.
As I stated previously (hey; why bother reading the entire thread?) a skilled Storch operator can mark GVs without much risk of being shot down, by such tactics as approaching NOE behind trees, or by marking the location the GV is heading for. As stated previously, the effect of the Storch is to reveal GV locations, so its lack of combat power is irrelevant.
b) the Storch is only available on the defensive due to spawn location, flight times and vulnerability. I have flown it to enemy fields on some of the smaller maps. Spent 30 minutes flying and 10 seconds on station before being killed by an plane without helping my side at all.
Most GV battles have one side “on the defensive”.
c) a GV can hide from a Storch in trees and buildings. You won't see it without overflying it and the Storch will be dead soon enough.
Incorrect; it can see you from at least 600 yards away, and more if LOS or movement is involved. Also, most people don’t up GVs just so they can hide in tress or buildings. Kind of like watching grass grow…
d) any gv group that brings even an M16 will find itself protected from a Storch.
Incorrect; see my comment to (a) above.
e) a Storch does not have the ability to earn a perk. Every other aircraft or gv that cost a perk can also earn the perks it cost.
We are concerned with optimal gameplay issues here, not simplistic rules-of-thumb such as whether a vehicle sortie can recover the perk points it cost. Actually, one rarely recovers perk points during a sortie with a perked item; typically one hopes for a few kills and survival at the end.
In summary, remember that the point of the OP was to suggest a disincentive to prolifigate Storch use, leaving the bulk of the existing dynamics in place.
MH
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As I stated previously (hey; why bother reading the entire thread?) a skilled Storch operator can mark GVs without much risk of being shot down, by such tactics as approaching NOE behind trees, or by marking the location the GV is heading for.
How can the storch be 'too easy' but still require a skilled operator to not get shot down?
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How can the storch be 'too easy' but still require a skilled operator to not get shot down?
The skills referred to are not exactly rocket science (NOE and advance marking).
MH
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The skills referred to are not exactly rocket science (NOE and advance marking).
MH
what is advanced marking?
semp
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what is advanced marking?
semp
In fairness, he said advance marking. I assume either meaning marking the path of the tanks advance -or- marking in front of the tanks direction.
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and of course if the tank sees the smoke it will go for it.
semp
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and of course if the tank sees the smoke it will go for it.
semp
More often than not, he has to. For example, if he is heading for a particular hill overlooking a base.
Come on now; stop grasping at straws. If you have done any GVing at all, you know what I'm talking about here. If not, I have to assume you just trying to protect your particular style of attack plane game play.
MH
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and of course if the tank sees the smoke it will go for it.
semp
More often than not, he has to. For example, if he is heading for a particular hill overlooking a base.
Come on now; stop grasping at straws. If you have done any GVing at all, you know what I'm talking about here. If not, I have to assume that your motivation for posting is that you're just trying to protect your particular style of attack plane game play.
MH
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ok, deacon, i really have to stop you here
If you look up my score you will see that i have little or no storch kills. That is mainly because i don't really go after them reasoning for that is i will dogfight in the dang thing and i know how crazy that little thing really is. I haven't gotten any kills yet but i came close a few times :x :x, also the NOE thing doesn't really work that well against a good GVer. The best thing to is to come in behind the tank or flak shut your engine off and glide in from up above and drop smoke
all in all i don't think that the storch needs to be perked
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Nope. Virtually every plane in the game pawns the Storch. :aok
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Nope. Virtually every plane in the game pawns the Storch. :aok
True, but since the motivation for perking it has *nothing* to do with its air-to-air prowess, so what?
MH
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As I stated previously (hey; why bother reading the entire thread?) a skilled Storch operator can mark GVs without much risk of being shot down, by such tactics as approaching NOE behind trees, or by marking the location the GV is heading for. As stated previously, the effect of the Storch is to reveal GV locations, so its lack of combat power is irrelevant.
i read the whole thread before replying. notice i am answering your arguments with my own. Interlocking fields of fire come into play here as the gv your marking may not be the gv shooting you down.
Most GV battles have one side “on the defensive”.
at least 1/3 to 1/2 will be defensive, another 1/3 to 1/2 will be offensive and upto 1/3 will be meeting engagements. the Storch currently has a realistic role in defensive and some meeting engagements very few maps with close vbase locations does it play a role in offensive operations. tank town would be a meeting engagement that the Storch may have a role in but not on maps where there is air cover involved in the battle.
As it happens the place the Storch would be the most use is when it can not survive on the field long enough to make a contribution. This would be during a defense of a base with a combined air/ground and when applicable sea assault.
Incorrect; it can see you from at least 600 yards away, and more if LOS or movement is involved. Also, most people don’t up GVs just so they can hide in tress or buildings. Kind of like watching grass grow…
you can only see them if you have LOS. if they are behind a tree, in a barn, in a clump of trees and not in your LOS you can not see them in a Storch or a gv or another plane. I recall a battle where someone had a panther in a barn that had the door facing our base. Until right on top of them nobody was able to see the panther in question. In the same battle we had some hiding on ridges in clumps of trees. They could be seen from some angles but not all of them and they were using M16s, wirbs and M4's to shoot me out the sky. The Storch should have outlines on the window with captions that say "spray blood here".
Incorrect; see my comment to (a) above.
We are concerned with optimal gameplay issues here, not simplistic rules-of-thumb such as whether a vehicle sortie can recover the perk points it cost. Actually, one rarely recovers perk points during a sortie with a perked item; typically one hopes for a few kills and survival at the end.
In summary, remember that the point of the OP was to suggest a disincentive to prolifigate Storch use, leaving the bulk of the existing dynamics in place.
MH
yes we are concerned about game play here. The Storch is not heavily used as it is with all it's disadvantages that it has. I find it a fun plane to fly but many don't fly it. I'm cool with that but just because it has a job to do and can do it does not mean it should be perked. As to the "rule-of-thumb" argument, it's valid whether you like it or not. I don't need to gain score or perks when I fly it but if your going to charge me to fly it, it should be capable of paying for itself.
shdo
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True, but since the motivation for perking it has *nothing* to do with its air-to-air prowess, so what?
MH
I admire your stubbornness. and that deserves a good :salute but it is also a bad thing if you get stuck in "I'm right" mode when you arent.
and I'll tell you a little secret about why me and most wont use a storch. because it does nothing special really. I can up any plane with bombs and rockets and do a faster recon of an area and I can even kill a gv or two than the storch does. even on vh bases I'll bring a fighter even if I spend most of the time scouting as I can see most gv's even before I am within icon range.
and I'll tell you another secret. drop smoke ahead of a gv on a place where you dont want it to go. most likely it will move in a different direction and that is based on what I hear tankers on the ground do when I fly cover.
semp
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i read the whole thread before replying. notice i am answering your arguments with my own. Interlocking fields of fire come into play here as the gv your marking may not be the gv shooting you down.
OK; you read the thread; I guess it’s hard to keep track of everything someone says. I was getting frustrated at the way some respondents ignored what had been said previously. My apologies.
at least 1/3 to 1/2 will be defensive, another 1/3 to 1/2 will be offensive and upto 1/3 will be meeting engagements. the Storch currently has a realistic role in defensive and some meeting engagements very few maps with close vbase locations does it play a role in offensive operations. tank town would be a meeting engagement that the Storch may have a role in but not on maps where there is air cover involved in the battle.
My point about “defensive” GV battles was that usually one side or the other will be “defensive” and near a VBase with Storches. Thus their presence is common, contrary to your implications. IMHO, from a GV “hide-and-seek” gameplay perspective, it is often undesirable to reveal either side’s GV positions. Of course, your concept of the ideal GV battle probably differs from mine.
As it happens the place the Storch would be the most use is when it can not survive on the field long enough to make a contribution. This would be during a defense of a base with a combined air/ground and when applicable sea assault.
I disagree here. During base defense against a massive air/ground attack, you don’t really need the spotting a Storch provides, as the environment is target-rich, and the attacking planes will kill your defending GVs fairly quickly anyway, once their tracers reveal their positions. I know in that situation, 90% of my concern as a defender is being bombed or strafed, and rightfully so.
Instead, the situation in which the Storch has the greatest negative effect, is the one where there are only a small number of GVs on both sides. Assuming no attack planes, previously, one could get an interesting “hide-and-seek” situation going. Now, the Storch finds you immediately, and the chance for ambush is lost. Remember, that some low ENY GVs don’t even have AAMGs (M3-75mm, early Pz-IV, etc.).
you can only see them if you have LOS. if they are behind a tree, in a barn, in a clump of trees and not in your LOS you can not see them in a Storch or a gv or another plane. I recall a battle where someone had a panther in a barn that had the door facing our base. Until right on top of them nobody was able to see the panther in question. In the same battle we had some hiding on ridges in clumps of trees. They could be seen from some angles but not all of them and they were using M16s, wirbs and M4's to shoot me out the sky. The Storch should have outlines on the window with captions that say "spray blood here".
LOS in Aces High seems to be fairly generously defined, so that if your Storch is moving, there will be the occasional gap in foliage or trunks, thus allowing the hidden GV icon to appear. That has been my experience over the course of many flights. Barns are a partial exception, but if you fly past the end within sighting distance, you can almost always see through the window, thus momentarily revealing the icon. All it takes is a momentary sighting to reveal that GV. BTW, I mis-stated the Storch sighting distance at 600 yards stationary in trees; I believe that it is actually set to 1200, with 600 for other planes. Moving is worse.
yes we are concerned about game play here. The Storch is not heavily used as it is with all it's disadvantages that it has. I find it a fun plane to fly but many don't fly it. I'm cool with that but just because it has a job to do and can do it does not mean it should be perked. As to the "rule-of-thumb" argument, it's valid whether you like it or not. I don't need to gain score or perks when I fly it but if your going to charge me to fly it, it should be capable of paying for itself.
You are entitled to your perk-earning preferences, but I disagree that they are relevant to the game play issues being discussed. I think the real motivation for most objections to perking the Storch derive from the usual “it will make me ineffective” fears which people have. I think that perking the Storch at 1 point will not have the great negative effect that these people fear; just a minor shift.
MH
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and I'll tell you another secret. drop smoke ahead of a gv on a place where you dont want it to go. most likely it will move in a different direction and that is based on what I hear tankers on the ground do when I fly cover.
semp
Remember, this part of the discussion was in response to the claim that Storches would not survive long enough to have much effect. If you have deterred the GV from carrying out its original movement plan, you have had a very significant effect. So either he ignores the "advance marking" smoke, thus risking the consequences of smoke marking, or he cancels his original plan and possibly makes his entire mission a waste of time.
I know that as a frequent GVer, good high ground is priceless. If the Storch keeps me from going there, I am frequently reduced to walking into a defenders ambush on the flat (they are operating on interior lines, are therefore mostly stationary, and can hear me coming).
MH
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Remember, this part of the discussion was in response to the claim that Storches would not survive long enough to have much effect. If you have deterred the GV from carrying out its original movement plan, you have had a very significant effect. So either he ignores the "advance marking" smoke, thus risking the consequences of smoke marking, or he cancels his original plan and possibly makes his entire mission a waste of time.
I know that as a frequent GVer, good high ground is priceless. If the Storch keeps me from going there, I am frequently reduced to walking into a defenders ambush on the flat (they are operating on interior lines, are therefore mostly stationary, and can hear me coming).
MH
but you still wont know which way the gv is going to go. i was just messing with you on the marking thing knowing you would answer it.
semp
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True, but since the motivation for perking it has *nothing* to do with its air-to-air prowess, so what?
MH
Perking is done when a plane or vehicle can overly affect gameplay by it's domination of the other aircraft and planes in the game. Hitech has a complicated formula for figuring this out, please do not ask me to explain it because I cannot. The Storch has no capability that causes it to overly dominate anything in the game inventory. Hence, no need to perk. I understand your thinking, but I rarely tank with out friendly air cover around which causes the Storch to be nothing more than an interesting target to shoot at for myself or a squaddie. Hardly a game changer. Fun to fly though!
:salute
Way
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Waystin2,
You are refering to the traditional "hard kill" effects of game rides. The Storch, given its effective recon abilities has a sort of "soft kill" effect on GVs in certain common situations (recall the boxing analogy I gave earlier in the thread). The 1-point perk proposal would be justified by the latter effects.
Granted that an organized mission with air cover wouldn't care, but I tend to be a "lone wolf" type who participates in disorganized or solitary missions. Also, the experience I described in the OP seemed wrong to me. I doubt they'll perk it, but I had to try.
MH