Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: aztec on May 19, 2012, 06:54:37 AM
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Been waiting for many years....please bring us a Ki43.
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I think we have another oscar thread.
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I think we have another oscar thread.
Nah,it's a Ki43 thread....... :D
:salute
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It will be hangar queen although I want to see it too.
Ki-84-I-Otsu, Ki-44-II-Hei, Ki-100-I, J2M3 or Ki-61-II-KAI would be useful for Main Arena. :)
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Or even better yet, we could get something thats actually good, like some more SdKfz 251 variants, or a Panzer III.
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Or even better yet, we could get something thats actually good, like some more SdKfz 251 variants, or a Panzer III.
But they dont fly! I prefer Mitsu's list!
:salute
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This is Tank-Ace, sitting on the right:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cVlTeIATBs
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Or even better yet, we could get something thats actually good, like some more SdKfz 251 variants, or a Panzer III.
Neither of those will see any use in the MA or in scenarios. The Ki-43, depending on version, would see use in both.
Stop tilting at windmills.
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Ki-43 is waaaay overdue. We have Snapshots, FSO, Scenarios and AvA where it will get quite a workout. Why not expand the plane sets for other than the MA? They have all the latewar planes they need.
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Neither of those will see any use in the MA or in scenarios. The Ki-43, depending on version, would see use in both.
Stop tilting at windmills.
I'd REALLY have to argue that, especially with the SdKfz, if we got the 251/22 variant.
Depending on the model of Panzer III we got, it could fight the Panzer IV F on largely even terms out to about 1000yds.
As for the SdKfz 251, picture slower M3, but with a good gun instead of that crappy model 1897 cannon. Arguably, it would see more MA use than the Panzer IV F. Why? Because its survivablity lies in its size, and speed, rather than in armor that doesn't protect you from the majority of incoming rounds.
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Or even better yet, we could get something thats actually good, like some more SdKfz 251 variants, or a Panzer III.
or we can stop being a "japan aircraft sucks" person.
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I'd REALLY have to argue that, especially with the SdKfz, if we got the 251/22 variant.
Depending on the model of Panzer III we got, it could fight the Panzer IV F on largely even terms out to about 1000yds.
As for the SdKfz 251, picture slower M3, but with a good gun instead of that crappy model 1897 cannon. Arguably, it would see more MA use than the Panzer IV F. Why? Because its survivablity lies in its size, and speed, rather than in armor that doesn't protect you from the majority of incoming rounds.
Being competitive with the Panzer IV F and M3 with the 1987 cannon is not a strong data point to argue that they would be used in significant numbers. There are many things that would be used in numbers significantly over the Ki-43's likely usage, but you picked things that are not likely on that list.
We get that you don't care for anything that isn't German, particularly tanks, but you really need to stop trying to derail any thread about one of the more significant aircraft from WWII with this stuff.
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Hey, I can come up with several reasons to add the Ki-43 ahead of the Panzer III or SdKfz 251/22. I'm just not going to share them, because its not in my interest to help out the Ki-43.
And I never said japanese aircraft suck. The Ki-84 is one of the most dangerous opponents in the game. I'm just questioning the overall value of the Ki-43. Outside of a couple of scenarios and a niche role in the MA, it will be valueless by and large.
@ Karnak,
The Panzer IV F recieves sizable usage. If the Panzer III can fight it on even terms, or even come away with a slight advantage (no idea how ROF will play into it), then it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that a fair number of Panzer III's would begin showing up in the MA's.
And I wasn't saying it would compare favorably to the 1897 (although it would do that. Infact, it would be equal to or comare favorably with all but 4 cannons in the game right now), I'm just using the M3 as an illustration. The 251/22 would give us good moblity, a small hard to see profile, and a powerfull cannon all at no perk cost. For a perk-free defensive vehicle, this would be very hard to beat.
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I'd REALLY have to argue that, especially with the SdKfz, if we got the 251/22 variant.
Depending on the model of Panzer III we got, it could fight the Panzer IV F on largely even terms out to about 1000yds.
As for the SdKfz 251, picture slower M3, but with a good gun instead of that crappy model 1897 cannon. Arguably, it would see more MA use than the Panzer IV F. Why? Because its survivablity lies in its size, and speed, rather than in armor that doesn't protect you from the majority of incoming rounds.
Rarely do you even see an m3(75) - 251/22 won't be any different - doesn't matter how good the gun is it won't survive in the MA unless you are camping a spawn - same with the Panzer 3 (doesn't matter what variant you choose).
Panzer4 F will outlive both and even if its ENY gets downgraded people will rather take the 4F over any Panzer III.
Rarely do you see a M4-75 unless someones blowing up town, I would argue the Puma is the only viable option - 50mm L/60 cannon with high speed would be more useful then an M8 but would not over take the M18 in terms of use.
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I'm just questioning the overall value of the Ki-43. Outside of a couple of scenarios and a niche role in the MA, it will be valueless by and large.
While I understand what you are saying, I have to disagree, because this game is a lot more than the LWMA. We have to 3 to 4 events each week where this plane will often play a significant role.
We also have a 24/7 arena in AvA where it will see a lot of use.
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Rarely do you even see an m3(75) - 251/22 won't be any different - doesn't matter how good the gun is it won't survive in the MA unless you are camping a spawn - same with the Panzer 3 (doesn't matter what variant you choose).
Panzer4 F will outlive both and even if its ENY gets downgraded people will rather take the 4F over any Panzer III.
Rarely do you see a M4-75 unless someones blowing up town, I would argue the Puma is the only viable option - 50mm L/60 cannon with high speed would be more useful then an M8 but would not over take the M18 in terms of use.
I'm not quite so sure of that. From what I've head, the main reason the M3(75) doesn't see more use is lack of firepower. 92mm of penetration just isn't enough to tackle most tanks you'll bump into. Another reason is that the optics are, to be frank, complete crap. Neither of those issues would apply to the SdKfz 251/22, which would be capable of knocking out any tank but the Tiger II from the front at ranges exceeding 1600yds, and would have high quality optics.
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Another fighter aircraft thread successfully hijacked by the 'we need more tanks' brigade. Awesome.
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Tanks are stupid.
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I'm not quite so sure of that. From what I've head, the main reason the M3(75) doesn't see more use is lack of firepower. 92mm of penetration just isn't enough to tackle most tanks you'll bump into. Another reason is that the optics are, to be frank, complete crap. Neither of those issues would apply to the SdKfz 251/22, which would be capable of knocking out any tank but the Tiger II from the front at ranges exceeding 1600yds, and would have high quality optics.
Optics would be no different then on the Panzer 4 H.
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Optics would be no different then on the Panzer 4 H.
Yeah, in other words among the best in the game.
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Yeah, in other words among the best in the game.
Not entirely, Tiger 2 has the best optics, followed by Panther/Tiger then Firefly - decent optics are M476/M18.
T34/Panzer4 are down on the list, especially trying to aim beyond 1400 yards.
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For pure magnification, yes. However the optics have advantages that go beyond simple magnification. When you get practice with it, the mils system can give you pretty good range estimates. Especially usefull for longer-range engagments, and when you only have a few shots before you need to either high-tail it or take one through the turret.
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Hey, I can come up with several reasons to add the Ki-43 ahead of the Panzer III or SdKfz 251/22. I'm just not going to share them, because its not in my interest to help out the Ki-43.
LOL...ok then keep your secret. We don't want to hear them anyway. Shouldn't you be out rounding up your 30 GV's that want to do a scenario so bad. Please stop with your GV rants on aircraft threads. You do not need a high post count to let us know you don't understand. We get it. :old:
+1 for the Ki-43. Important bird that is long over due to fly in Aces High.
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LOL...ok then keep your secret. We don't want to hear them anyway. Shouldn't you be out rounding up your 30 GV's that want to do a scenario so bad. Please stop with your GV rants on aircraft threads. You do not need a high post count to let us know you don't understand. We get it. :old:
Oh I understand prefectly the usefulness of the Ki-43, or rather the lack thereof. Really its usefulness is limited to special events, as in the MA, the japanese already rule the one area where the Ki-43 would out-preform the other fighters: turning.
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I wouldn't say they "rule" it. The A6M2 narrowly out turns the Hurricane Mk I and the Brewster B239, both of which out turn the A6M5b. Not sure where the A6M3 falls in that list.
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I hijacked this thread with Tojo! :furious
(http://zargos-skins.net/images/visionneuse/ki44-akeno-hirose/ki44-akeno-hirose-01.jpg)
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My personal list of Japanese aircraft that I want:
D4Y 'Judy'
H8K2 'Emily'
J2M3/J2M5 'Jack'
Ki-43 'Oscar'
Ki-44 'Tojo'
Ki-102 'Randy'
P1Y1 'Frances'
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My personal list of Japanese aircraft that I want:
D4Y 'Judy'
H8K2 'Emily'
J2M3/J2M5 'Jack'
Ki-43 'Oscar'
Ki-44 'Tojo'
Ki-102 'Randy'
P1Y1 'Frances'
Dig it! I'd even add the Ki 27, then we can run a proper AVG setup.
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Why do you want the oscar anyways? It's not going to do anything like the Ki-84, it's not even better. I'll bet you the Yak 3 would be an even better choice than that. Ki is a piece of paper, Yak 3 is atleast a tin can. Yak 3>Ki-43
Also the Ki-43 is so weak it only has 2 mgs, it can't beat it's way out of a wetpaper bag.
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Why do you want the oscar anyways? It's not going to do anything like the Ki-84, it's not even better. I'll bet you the Yak 3 would be an even better choice than that. Ki is a piece of paper, Yak 3 is atleast a tin can. Yak 3>Ki-43
Also the Ki-43 is so weak it only has 2 mgs, it can't beat it's way out of a wetpaper bag.
It outturns a zero, just letting you know. Same 12.7mm as the ones on the Ki-84. And I've killed plenty with just the MGs. Not every plane has to have 8x 50 cals ya know? ;)
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Titan,
the point is, the Oscar can easily outmaneuver every other aircraft in game. In the other hand, its very slow and has really weak guns... even if we get the 12.7mm model.
The other planes could just dive away, or accelerate away in level flight before those little guns could hurt them fatally. In the ki-84 you can accelerate to 300mph with anything.
This aircraft would be very dangerous for zeeks, hurries, f4f4s, brewsters... but only in 1v1. And horribly outclassed by literally anything else.
Im afraid it would be a pretty bad hangar queen after its first week. Yup, even in scenarios: the zeek (another japaneese aircraft, already the best turnfighter in game) can still dominate the early pacific setup, and against corsairs the turn rate does not count. They get outturned in 2 turns either against the zeek or the ki43. The diference is, the zeek can at least hurt them with the 20mms before they dive away.
Not against the plane... but think about it.
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debrody,
I shot down a P-47N using just the two 7.7mm guns on the D3A1 before he could accelerate away from me. If the D3A1 can do it to a P-47N then the Ki-43-II should have no problem doing it to any fighter that just tries to accelerate away.
Have you tried using just the 12.7s on the Ki-61 or Ki-84? I recall on Ki-84 flight were after bagging four I was out of 20mm ammo and a Hurri IIc, a reasonably tough aircraft that out turns the Ki-84, was in the area and I was able to BnZ the Hurri down with just the 12.7mm guns and have enough ammo left to kill a C-47A on my way home. Sure, they're not heavy firepower, but they'll get the job done a heck of a lot better than the two 7.7mm guns on the D3A1 will.
In addition, this plane shot down more Allied planes than did the A6M, despite having a production run over 4,000 less than that of the A6M and the lack of 20mm cannons. The Ki-43 is the second most produced Japanese aircraft after the A6M and an important factor in WWII air combat. Not having it in the Pacific and CBI settings is literally like not having the Fw190 for European settings.
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Allright, i see your point, the question is, how poor that jug pilot was, also how many times you have to try before you can do it again.
Yes i shot down many planes with the 109G's 12mms. Spits, ki's ect. They arent as bad at all. But again, the ki84 or even the 61 is a LOT faster than the ki43, ergo it isnt as easy to escape.
In a cartoon world where spit16s and ki84s try to run from a 109G, i dont expect much success and fun for the ki43. Whats is fun btw... but thats for another discussion.
Edit: i stated, this plane could be very dangerous to hurries, brewsters, F4F4s and possibly to p40s too, the entire EW PTO allied arsenal. Possibly thats why it was successful at that part of the war. Flying it would be no different from the zeek tho: come with alt, once you make them turn, they are dead. But in every other situation, this plane would be seriously outclassed.
Edit2: i got 3 kills in a Stuka once too, was alone against an f4u, then an la7 n a pony, yea it happened, but only once and never ever again. Still i wouldnt bring it up as a reason.
Anyway, im not against it, if you think you would fly with this plane, i wish you to find all the fun with it.
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Very poor, but my point was that leveling out and trying to run resulted in his tough P-47N and its elevators deciding to part company due to the fire of an aircraft that has something like 1/5th the firepower of the twin 12.7mm armed, much better accelerating, Ki-43-II. Yes, it would be out classed by many fighters, but the anti-Ki-43 guys exaggerate how badly it would do. Nobody is claiming it would see tons of use, but there are frankly not many WWII aircraft left to add that will see tons of use. Its historical significance alone demands its addition and in all three versions.
Also, the Ki-43-III could do about 365, which isn't that much slower than the Ki-61. Ki-43-II's 335 is rather slow and the Ki-43-I's 315 is very slow, almost as slow as the B239 and I-16.
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The only time I'll use the Oscar if it gets added is during CV defense. Why? Because almost everyone who lifts off a CV never goes above 5K. Everyone is always on the deck fighting. An the Oscar will wreck every single CV plane. And I would assume the ENY is going to be 30 or 35. Can you say perk farm?
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I'm a very biased, but I just don't accept that "We don't need it because it is outclassed in the MA."
This game is so much more than the MA. There are hundreds of players that would have left long ago if we didn't have special events.
The Oscar will be used extensively in places other than the MA.
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Also the Ki-43 is so weak it only has 2 mgs, it can't beat it's way out of a wetpaper bag.
Yep, so weak that its the Japanese fighter that was responsible for the most Allied planes shot down and almost all Japanese air force aces became aces in the Ki-43.
ack-ack
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One of the things that would be kind of fun about the Ki-43, besides the extended fights (I know that may look odd coming from a guy with a Mossie in his avatar, something that specializes in ending fights rapidly), is the fact that you have an extremely maneuverable fighter without the use of flaps and then you get the fowler flaps (as on P-38, Ki-84 and N1K2-J) that Nakajima added to seemingly every fighter they designed in WWII.
That does sound like a fun toy, as long as you're willing to put up with the light armament and construction.
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One of the things that would be kind of fun about the Ki-43, besides the extended fights (I know that may look odd coming from a guy with a Mossie in his avatar, something that specializes in ending fights rapidly), is the fact that you have an extremely maneuverable fighter without the use of flaps and then you get the fowler flaps (as on P-38, Ki-84 and N1K2-J) that Nakajima added to seemingly every fighter they designed in WWII.
That does sound like a fun toy, as long as you're willing to put up with the light armament and construction.
Yep. And it was a fun toy in WarBirds back in the day. It also has a very nice power to weight ratio especially when comparing it to other maneuverable but slow fighters.
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I may be able to out-turn AKAK's P-38J in Ki-43...
I may be able to out-turn Wmaker's Brewster in Ki-43...
throw away Ki-84 now...
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throw away Ki-84 now...
Blasphemy Mitsu San! :mad:
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Yep, so weak that its the Japanese fighter that was responsible for the most Allied planes shot down and almost all Japanese air force aces became aces in the Ki-43.
ack-ack
shooting down what aircraft?
You can quote history, but the MA isn't history in action. The plane will be a hangar queen because it will be very uncompetitive in the LW-MA which is where 98% of the sorties are flown. I'm not against the plane, but I hate to see HTC spend precious resources on planes that will take three years of MA flight time to log more man-hours that it took to develop. That said there is a very vocal croud for this plane. your dedication is admireable. :salute
NEW RULE: All the folks that lobbied for a plane, HAVE to log 90% of their MA time in it for 1 year. :D ;)
I wonder if Lusche has a graph that correlates how many posts supporting a particular plane someone has posted vs. what percentage of time they spend in that plane once it's added?
It would be cool if HTC had a on-line list of planes on the development list with a check box that you could vote for. It records one vote so if a new plane gets added, you can vote for it, but you vote would come off the other plane you voted for. 1 vote per player. Then the list would update in real time as to priority based on votes.
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Special events are a big part of this game. I think it sucks that some think that community should only get LW-MA table scraps.
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Special events are a big part of this game. I think it sucks that some think that community should only get LW-MA table scraps.
Easy now. ;)
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The plane will only be as competitive as its pilot is, and will only be as outclassed as its pilot is (and there are a lot of folks in this game that have no class...so I can see that as a problem)
So do we just want to say that if it isn't as fast as a pony with the firepower of the Me262, then it's going to be a hanger queen? So if we already have these two planes we shouldn't add anymore?
If it has a prop, engine, wing, a gun, and flew combat in WW2 then it should be added.
And if your convinced that YOU will never have the skill to fly it, then that's fine...there is always a 500mph eny 5 warrior pick fest you can join to make you feel good.
The rest of us are just looking for our fun as well.
+1 for the Ki-43's
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Blasphemy Mitsu San! :mad:
that's my thought....damn the KI will kill both those he mentioned....... quite easily I must say.....
give us the 4 20's in MY ki84....(yes its mine:-)
and NOTHING will be safe.....Ki84 with the punching power of A Hurri2C...... :x :x
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The plane will only be as competitive as its pilot is, and will only be as outclassed as its pilot is (and there are a lot of folks in this game that have no class...so I can see that as a problem)
So do we just want to say that if it isn't as fast as a pony with the firepower of the Me262, then it's going to be a hanger queen? So if we already have these two planes we shouldn't add anymore?
If it has a prop, engine, wing, a gun, and flew combat in WW2 then it should be added.
And if your convinced that YOU will never have the skill to fly it, then that's fine...there is always a 500mph eny 5 warrior pick fest you can join to make you feel good.
The rest of us are just looking for our fun as well.
+1 for the Ki-43's
I've spent 6 months in s P-39 in LW. I know a little something about flying uncompetitive planes and why others fly them too. New planes don't have to be better, they have to add something new and different. Does the Ki-43 do that, is all I'm asking?
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Ki-43-III with 30 ENY Ki-43-II with 35 ENY?
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I remember the old WB days when fighting with a KI 43 noe. An amazing bird which can put on some flames ...... right flown!
cheers
dhy
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I've spent 6 months in s P-39 in LW. I know a little something about flying uncompetitive planes and why others fly them too. New planes don't have to be better, they have to add something new and different. Does the Ki-43 do that, is all I'm asking?
I don't think we are that far apart on the issue Vink.
Wouldn't the addition of the Ki43 in itself be "new" and "different"
New as in we didn't have it before....check
Different as in we don't have one now....check
So I have to ask ya, what other planes would anyone want that doesn't fit the new and different criteria?
And if it has to surpass other planes performance in a number of categories to be warrented and not prelabeled as a hanger queen, well then aren't we just back to the it has to be bigger, faster, stronger to be included line of thought?
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The plane will only be as competitive as its pilot is, and will only be as outclassed as its pilot is (and there are a lot of folks in this game that have no class...so I can see that as a problem)
Respectfully I think this point is flawed. A skilful pilot can only perform up to the limits of the aircraft and the ACM that it is capable of. Although I agree that limit is seldom demonstrated in the MA.
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I don't think we are that far apart on the issue Vink.
Wouldn't the addition of the Ki43 in itself be "new" and "different"
New as in we didn't have it before....check
Different as in we don't have one now....check
So I have to ask ya, what other planes would anyone want that doesn't fit the new and different criteria?
And if it has to surpass other planes performance in a number of categories to be warrented and not prelabeled as a hanger queen, well then aren't we just back to the it has to be bigger, faster, stronger to be included line of thought?
I enjoy the discussion but I feel bad about turning this thread into a discussion against this plane. In retrospect I wish I hadn't done that because, while I think I'm correct about useage, it doesn't add value to argue against anyone's desire for a particular piece of equipment in the game. :salute
To your question...Different is defined in each attribute quality of a plane. A strategy for any plane can be developed based on it's attributes, playing to it's strengths and trying to avoid it weakenesses. But if the profile of attributes is very similar to another plane, just scaled down slightly, it doesn't create new matchups. The Oscar will have a very similar attribute profile to the Zeke. The guns will be turned down a lot, the speed will be turned down a little, and the turning ability will be turned up a little. But the Zeke is already the best turning plane in the game. So a better tunring Zeke doesn't get you much. Turning the guns way down and making it slower is giving up a ton in the MA.
So the modus operendi for a Zeke is to turn hard to engage and get the kill before he can run away from you. Anyone who stays and turn fights you is going to get killed. Won't the Oscar be exactly the same except when you bring guns to bare, you have significantly less chance of gettng a kill, and even less chance of keeping up with the bandit? Zeke pilots who have excepted the plane's trade offs, will not find a reason to chose this plane because it's "gets" aren't as big as it's "gives" they will fly the plane but be less successful. they will be saddled up longer and get picked more often.
If Zekes were easy-mode for getting kills, I could see Zeke pilots taking Oscars in order to add more of a challenge in the way Spit pilots will take a Spit mark I. But a Zeke is already has it's work cut out for it in the LW-MA. Flying one is already enough of a challenge. Spit mkI is a very rare sight indeed because while it's 'different' it's not different in a usable, exploitable, or good way. :salute
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It is not slower than the A6M and the A6M, other than the 2, is not the best turning fighter in AH.
The Ki-43-III would do about 365mph at best altitude, 10-15mph faster than the A6M5b, while still out turning the Hurricane Mk I and Brewster B239.
The addition of the fowler flaps is another difference between the Ki-43 and A6M. The Ki-43's power to weight ratio should also be better.
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Fowler flaps are the dog's bollocks by the way. 'When this baby hits 88 miles per hour, you’re going to see some serious sh*t'. :banana:
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Ki-43 variants compared to some other lighter wingloading fighters found from AH:
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f147/Wmaker/Ki-43comparison.jpg)
Poor prop efficiency hampers the I-16 and would probably hamper Ki-43-I aswell due to its two bladed two-speed prop. For Ki-43-I 2-speed prop model would have to be coded as well.
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Additionally the wing area will increase when the Fowlers are deployed in the Ki-43 and not with anything else on that list. Are the flap deployment speeds known?
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According to Maker's post...
The -III model would outperform the -II in every possible situation.
How many of them were built? Would this model fit the criteria?
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According to Maker's post...
The -III model would outperform the -II in every possible situation.
How many of them were built? Would this model fit the criteria?
I believe somewhere between 1000 and 2000 Ki-43-IIIs were built, but I have never seen a breakdown of production for it.
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Great.
I dont see any point in adding the -II model tho. The -I could be an eny40 scenario ride, and the -III as a semi-competitive late war model, maybe eny30?
They arent half as bad as i thought.
+1
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The plane will only be as competitive as its pilot is, and will only be as outclassed as its pilot is (and there are a lot of folks in this game that have no class...so I can see that as a problem)
So do we just want to say that if it isn't as fast as a pony with the firepower of the Me262, then it's going to be a hanger queen? So if we already have these two planes we shouldn't add anymore?
If it has a prop, engine, wing, a gun, and flew combat in WW2 then it should be added.
And if your convinced that YOU will never have the skill to fly it, then that's fine...there is always a 500mph eny 5 warrior pick fest you can join to make you feel good.
Really trying to cram in the over-simplifications there, aren't you?
First off, the plane matters. Pilot skill being equal, the plane will determin the fight. Some are better able to fight from a possition of disadvantage, which is an inevitablity. So the plane will be as competative as the plane is, that will never change no matter whos flying it. But how dangerous it is depends on the guy at the stick.
Second, nobody is saying that it will be a hanger queen because its not as fast as a P-51 or as heavily armed as the 262, and nobody is saying everything added has to be better than either of them. You're putting words in our mouth. However, we ARE saying that the Ki-43, after the 'new' wears off, will be a hanger queen because it is weakly armed, not weaker-armed than any other fighter aircraft we have in the game (although it is that), but because it is weakly armed period.
Now thats not to say its armament couldn't be usefull, I've made kills with even a single 7.92mm and some good aim, but that you WILL fell the lack.
Third, nobody in this discussion would be wanting in skill to fly the Ki-43. Tactics would be pretty simple: turn, and shoot. The argument is that we would have more fun in many other rides than we would in the Ki-43.
Nice attempt at misdirection though :ahand.
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First off, the plane matters. Pilot skill being equal, the plane will determin the fight.
Pilots being equal, the one that makes the first mistake will determine the outcome of the fight.
ack-ack
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Pilots being equal, the one that makes the first mistake will determine the outcome of the fight.
ack-ack
Arguable. Not all mistakes are fatal, and the second one to make a mistake could screw up even worse.
However, a better preforming plane gives the pilot a better chance than if he were in a worse plane, regardless of who makes the first mistake. The Ki-43 is much more able to recover from a mistake than the Ki-61 is. Same with the P-40N compared to the P-40C. Or the Bf 109K compared to the E, or even the G2.
Either way, the point is that preformance is not irrelvent in a fight, as High-Tone was implying.
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Whats right in Tank-ace's post:
flying it against literally any other aircraft would be very simple: come with altitude, dont let him escape, force him to turn and then you only have to copy your opponents moves, the plane is winning the fight for you. Just like a zeek, but the weak guns would make your job real hard (the opponet might dive away, you have to catch him on the deck, etc)
In the other hand, in a ki43 vs ki43 1v1... now that would be crazy. Even the spit9s are a bit uncomfortable for me as the action is happening sooo freakin fast... now imagine this aircraft. Wild, isnt it? : )
One awesome KOTH ride too.
Ack-ack: in my experience, given a fight between totally equally skilled pilots, the plane is the main deciding factor is the plane. Then who is still cold, who is warmed up, who is tired, theese are deciding who has the more chance to gain some profit from the opponent's mistake. Still, in an extreme case, in a spit16 vs p47D match, the spit pilot can do many mistakes and still win easily against a nearly perfectly flown jug... Sometimes the tiredness-factor can overtake the plane choice tho... ask IrishOne haha
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Arguable. Not all mistakes are fatal, and the second one to make a mistake could screw up even worse.
However, a better preforming plane gives the pilot a better chance than if he were in a worse plane, regardless of who makes the first mistake. The Ki-43 is much more able to recover from a mistake than the Ki-61 is. Same with the P-40N compared to the P-40C. Or the Bf 109K compared to the E, or even the G2.
Either way, the point is that preformance is not irrelvent in a fight, as High-Tone was implying.
If two equal pilots fly a P51-D and one makes a mistake the other can't run/recover from being killed, only Drastic performance can change that - a 109E vs P51D a P51D can run away, leaving a veteran in the dust.
Pilot skill always wins over performance.
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It is not slower than the A6M and the A6M, other than the 2, is not the best turning fighter in AH.
The Ki-43-III would do about 365mph at best altitude, 10-15mph faster than the A6M5b, while still out turning the Hurricane Mk I and Brewster B239.
The addition of the fowler flaps is another difference between the Ki-43 and A6M. The Ki-43's power to weight ratio should also be better.
I don't believe the speed diffrences you mentioned make any difference to my analysis. :salute
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Additionally the wing area will increase when the Fowlers are deployed in the Ki-43 and not with anything else on that list. Are the flap deployment speeds known?
Yep, rest of the fighters listed have split flaps.
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Or maybe an Me-410 in 2 weeks... :noid
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Arguable. Not all mistakes are fatal, and the second one to make a mistake could screw up even worse.
However, a better preforming plane gives the pilot a better chance than if he were in a worse plane, regardless of who makes the first mistake. The Ki-43 is much more able to recover from a mistake than the Ki-61 is. Same with the P-40N compared to the P-40C. Or the Bf 109K compared to the E, or even the G2.
Either way, the point is that preformance is not irrelvent in a fight, as High-Tone was implying.
The pilot that used his plane to the best of its ability, mistake free will win the fight 90% of the time regardless of the planes performance. And really the Ki43 would be more able to recover from a mistake than a Ki61? When was the last time you have taken up a Ki61? It's faster, dives better, has pilot armor and self sealing fuel tanks and is much more able to recover from a bad pilot move than the Ki43 would ever be able to do. Your lack of understanding of these aircraft is clouding your thoughts.
When you do start subscribing to AH again, I challenge you to a fight. I'll take the D3A and you can take any plane with a prop. I will show you then how a pilots tactics and decision making plays more into the out come of the fight than your planes on paper stats.
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H-tone, I dont suppose your judging the possible outcome on some random lucky occurances in the MA where your d3a seemed to take advantage of "skill" instead of the sheer laughability and novelty of it, are you?
Its usually best not to confuse the two....
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H-tone, I dont suppose your judging the possible outcome on some random lucky occurances in the MA where your d3a seemed to take advantage of "skill" instead of the sheer laughability and novelty of it, are you?
Its usually best not to confuse the two....
Lack of skill can cause a P-47N to lose to a D3A1.
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LIES< CAKE< UND MOAR LIES!!
lulz
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PS: Lack of skill could also make the p47 crash on take off; if that fits the requirements here. ZOMG :rock
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Also, the Ki-43-III could do about 365, which isn't that much slower than the Ki-61.
Do you remember any source which listed this speed? Sounds rather optimistic IMO.
Francillon lists 358mph @ ~22k (which is pretty good in itself). And Aero Detail #29 on Ki-43 mentions 345mph.
As a general note from various sources, Zeke was the faster aircraft until Ki-43 caught it or almost caught it up with the -III variant.
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PS: Lack of skill could also make the p47 crash on take off; if that fits the requirements here. ZOMG :rock
No, there is a skill threshold between crashing on its own and still lacking the skill needed to not get shot down by said D3A1.
The P-47N in question dove down onto me, I avoided his attack, and proceeded to do a descending spiral turn to the deck with me on his tail the whole way. We did a 720 or 1080 degree turn on the deck with me pecking away at him when he decided to make a run for it and leveled out. I shot his elevators off while he started to pull away from me. Once he lost his elevators he was no longer able to avoid, as he had shown he had the skill to do before, the collision with the ground.
That was a pure lack of skill on the part of the P-47N's pilot that caused it to lose a fight with a D3A1.
wmaker,
The 365 was from memory. I was likely thinking of the 358 number for the -III. I agree that the A6M2 was faster than the -I and the A6M3 likely faster than the -II.
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I disagree; there is *no* thresh-hold of skill; just as there is no thresh-hold in a plane's ability and capability; as what is claimed here.
You got lucky, like a camel pilot who found a 262 taxi'ing on the runway.
Pretty much sums it up.
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I disagree; there is *no* thresh-hold of skill; just as there is no thresh-hold in a plane's ability and capability; as what is claimed here.
You got lucky, like a camel pilot who found a 262 taxi'ing on the runway.
Pretty much sums it up.
Disagree. The F1 Camel strafing an Me262 on the runway does not involve the Me262 trying to kill the F1 Camel. In the scenario I described the P-47N tried to kill the D3A1 and due to lack of skill got shot down by the D3A1.
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my opinion on the whole debate about pilot "skill" vs "plane performance"
the closer to skill the 2 pilots are, plane performance becomes more of a factor....it is simple really
a vet (who actually fights) will always win against a noob in the better plane...even if the planes performance are at opposite ends of the spectrum.....
2 pilots of equal skill (in all aspects of fighting) in the same plane with equal E....it will be the first one that makes a mistake that loses......
2 pilots of equal skill.... the one that is in the better performing plane, will win..... the easier the win will be if the planes performance is further apart.
the great thing about dogfighting are all the variables....NO 2 dogfights are ever the same, that is why I find dogfighting so enthralling.
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If two equal pilots fly a P51-D and one makes a mistake the other can't run/recover from being killed, only Drastic performance can change that - a 109E vs P51D a P51D can run away, leaving a veteran in the dust.
Pilot skill always wins over performance.
You missed what I was saying there, kiddo.
I didn't (and I think nobody has, thus far in the thread) say that preformance trumps skill definitively. It can trump small and perhaps even moderate differences in skill; I mean the difference between good and bad is bigger than the difference between good and great. But its not going to let a noob beat a 10 year veteran, and I've never said that.
However, I did say that preformance isn't irrelvent. High-Tone would have his work cut out for him knocking my K4 down. I'm not gonna play his turny game, and his Ki-43 would simply lack the nessecary power to play the energy game with my 109, and thus I can dictate the terms of the fight. I would even go so far as to say that the power defecit of the Ki-43 is great enough that I could fight a bit of an energy catch-up game. And worst case scenario, even though I hate such moves, I could always go for a HO since one tater and he's scrap metal.
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The pilot that used his plane to the best of its ability, mistake free will win the fight 90% of the time regardless of the planes performance. And really the Ki43 would be more able to recover from a mistake than a Ki61? When was the last time you have taken up a Ki61? It's faster, dives better, has pilot armor and self sealing fuel tanks and is much more able to recover from a bad pilot move than the Ki43 would ever be able to do. Your lack of understanding of these aircraft is clouding your thoughts.
When you do start subscribing to AH again, I challenge you to a fight. I'll take the D3A and you can take any plane with a prop. I will show you then how a pilots tactics and decision making plays more into the out come of the fight than your planes on paper stats.
Yes, the pilot that flys his plane perfectly is obviously going to be more likely to win than someone who can barely maintain level flight. But the pilot that makes no mistakes is most certinally not going to beat the pilot that makes one mistake and has a big advantage in preformance 90% of the time.
You seem to assume that not making a mistake means that your opponent is unskilled, and that he is making both major and numerous mistakes. However that is not the case, and thats not what the origonal scenario (when I first made the comment you quoted) was. The situation I was describing was equal pilot skill, equal E and possition, which is a scenario where preformance is likely the determining factor. Even in a situation with some skill difference, even if not a great one, preformance is going to factor into things.
I've seen you fight, and have even fought you a couple times; you're good, I admit, but you're not good enough to beat me in a 109E when I'm in a K4, or in a 190F when I'm in an A5. You might be able to force a draw in something turny, since I wasn't great at high angle shots and have almost certinally gotten worse since I left, but you certinally can't force an engagment, and are guaranteed to lose a HO against just about anything I fly. Really it would come down to one of three things: who runs out of fuel first, if I get tired of making passes I don't have a good guns solution for and just start mixing it up, or if I run out of ammo taking those shots.
And meant to say Ki-84 is more able to recover from a mistake than the Ki-61, not the Ki-43 compared Ki-61.
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You missed what I was saying there, kiddo.
I didn't (and I think nobody has, thus far in the thread) say that preformance trumps skill. It can trump small and perhaps even moderate differences in skill; I mean the difference between good and bad is bigger than the difference between good and great. But its not going to let a noob beat a 10 year veteran, and I've never said that.
However, I did say that preformance isn't irrelvent. High-Tone would have his work cut out for him knocking my K4 down. I'm not gonna play his turny game, and his Ki-43 would simply lack the nessecary power to play the energy game with my 109, and thus I can dictate the terms of the fight. I would even go so far as to say that the power defecit of the Ki-43 is great enough that I could fight a bit of an energy catch-up game. And worst case scenario, even though I hate such moves, I could always go for a HO since one tater and he's scrap metal.
Yea...sounds good on paper doesn't it.
And I wouldn't even want the Ki43 to do that. I'll do it in a D3A.
The only two things your little K4 would be able to dictate in that fight is weather the fight begins and if it ends. To generate a shot on me your going to have to turn, at least some. Big swooping 500mph BnZ tactics will just leave you frustrated and out of WEP. And you can try as many HO shots as you would like, it's low class, but I won't complain.
Take the K4, I'll have you running back to your field ack in less than 3 minutes.
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And thus you illustrate my point. I have no experience in turny birds to speak of; certinally not in anything that can even come close to turning with a D3A. Therefore I have to either fight your game and give up all advantages, or pick something I have VERY limted experience in.
So essentially you're turning it from a comparison of if preformance can trump moderate differences in skill, and turning it into one to see if someone who has extensive expirience in turny birds can beat someone who has virtually no expirince in turny birds...... at a turn fight. And nevermmind the fact that I haven't flown for close to a year.
Give me a month to fix my shooting, and we take the fight into 109's or 190's, the things I have experience in, and the result will be different. Hell, really the best comparison of what you're trying to do would be me challenging you to a GV match.
I have more experience than you do, and I know their strenghts and weaknesses in and out, while you seem to never have been that big into them, and I would guess have limited experience throughout your whole AH carreer, yet alone any recent experience.
Point being that you're attempting to stack the deck so to speak, to get a result that reflects favorably on your argment, regardless of if the results portray the real situation.
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Get a room you 2. lmao kids.
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And thus you illustrate my point. I have no experience in turny birds to speak of; certinally not in anything that can even come close to turning with a D3A. Therefore I have to either fight your game and give up all advantages, or pick something I have VERY limted experience in.
So essentially you're turning it from a comparison of if preformance can trump moderate differences in skill, and turning it into one to see if someone who has extensive expirience in turny birds can beat someone who has virtually no expirince in turny birds...... at a turn fight. And nevermmind the fact that I haven't flown for close to a year.
Give me a month to fix my shooting, and we take the fight into 109's or 190's, the things I have experience in, and the result will be different. Hell, really the best comparison of what you're trying to do would be me challenging you to a GV match.
I have more experience than you do, and I know their strenghts and weaknesses in and out, while you seem to never have been that big into them, and I would guess have limited experience throughout your whole AH carreer, yet alone any recent experience.
Point being that you're attempting to stack the deck so to speak, to get a result that reflects favorably on your argment, regardless of if the results portray the real situation.
I am not trying to stack the deck at all. Your whole argument was that HT should skip the Ki43 for now based on how you think it will fair in a dogfight in the LW MA.
I said success in a dogfight will depend more on the pilots skill than the overall preformace of his aircraft.
Thanks for agreeing and have good day. :cheers:
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And thus you illustrate my point. I have no experience in turny birds to speak of; certinally not in anything that can even come close to turning with a D3A. Therefore I have to either fight your game and give up all advantages, or pick something I have VERY limted experience in.
The pilot in the Ki-43 doesn't need to force a turn fight against a faster plane like the Bf 109K-4. All the Ki-43 driver needs to do is force the overshoot and get you on the reversal and if the Ki-43 driver is more experienced than the Bf 109K-4 driver, it makes it much easier to force the over shoot than to try and force a turn fight.
ack-ack
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I am not trying to stack the deck at all. Your whole argument was that HT should skip the Ki43 for now based on how you think it will fair in a dogfight in the LW MA.
I said success in a dogfight will depend more on the pilots skill than the overall preformace of his aircraft.
Thanks for agreeing and have good day. :cheers:
No, what you're doing is setting it up so you can shout "Look, I beat someone who's been out of the game for 9 months in a fight where my planes advantages were worth more than his plane's advantages! That means the Ki-43 needz to beh added :rock :rock :rock!!"
The K4's advantages let it engage and disengage at will; in the typical MA enviornment, thats of far greater benefit than being able to out turn someone. However, in a 1v1, its not really usefull since you reall kind of have to engage. I can make a pass and then extend out of reach, but then thats not really a fight winning tactic.
But what you either don't understand, or ignore in an attempt to build up the Ki-43, is that 1v1's make up a minority of fights in the game, both MA and Special Event. The Ki-43 brings little to the table in a fight that the zeke doesn't already offer; its main point is historical significance.
The pilot in the Ki-43 doesn't need to force a turn fight against a faster plane like the Bf 109K-4. All the Ki-43 driver needs to do is force the overshoot and get you on the reversal and if the Ki-43 driver is more experienced than the Bf 109K-4 driver, it makes it much easier to force the over shoot than to try and force a turn fight.
ack-ack
I don't think anyone is arguing that a well flown Ki-43 can beat a poorly flown K4 in a 1v1. But a well flown K4 is going to beat a well flown Ki-43 as little or less effort. Hell, a well flown D3A could beat a poorly flown Ki-43. But that doesn't mean the D3A has any real merit as a fighter.
If large differences in pilot skill is worth more than large differences in preformance in a 1v1 scenario is highly irrlevent in the MA's. Even if HighTone did get his Ki-43, he'd usually be fighting a 10v10, where the K4's ablity to disegnage at will would be of far more value.
And for another matter, we weren't talking about the Ki-43 vs the K4, we were talking about the D3A, which is even slower and probably worse in the roll department.
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I see an argument from High-tone an experienced dogfighter and some kid who argues all day long who never manages a few hundred kills a tour period, even when he played full time.
I'll take my money on HT.
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*sigh*
I say HighTone takes the d3a and Tank-ace takes a 110G2 and we see what happens, eh?
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I'll take my money on HT.
Yep :aok
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*sigh*
I say HighTone takes the d3a and Tank-ace takes a 110G2 and we see what happens, eh?
Whoever has better aim in the BB guns win. :D
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You guys are totally nuts; I wouldnt mind giving this a go as well; lulz.
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IF NOT FOR SOME TARGET PRACTICE< ZOMG LULZ!!! HAHHAHAAHHA :banana: :x :airplane:
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Yea...sounds good on paper doesn't it.
And I wouldn't even want the Ki43 to do that. I'll do it in a D3A.
The only two things your little K4 would be able to dictate in that fight is weather the fight begins and if it ends. To generate a shot on me your going to have to turn, at least some. Big swooping 500mph BnZ tactics will just leave you frustrated and out of WEP. And you can try as many HO shots as you would like, it's low class, but I won't complain.
Take the K4, I'll have you running back to your field ack in less than 3 minutes.
this would only prove how much better you are then him as a pilot. Not that ONLY the pilot makes a difference. Really is that what you are arguing, that Plane makes no difference?
I'm with INK. He summed it up prefectly. It's a 2 axis plot with pilot skill on one axis and plane performance on ther other. Upper right corner yields higher probablitlity of victory vs lower left corner.
I make a mistake in my K4 and Noob in a Ki-43 gets a shot on me. His teeny guns dent my airplane and I live to kill him.
I make a mistake in my K-43 and noob getsa shot on me in his K4. His death cannon blows my plane in to little pieces. he wins.
This "the pilot makes all the difference" stuff is just illogical, and incorrect. why are you sticking with it? Troll? :salute
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Really a troll? That's what you got out of these post. I find it kind of offensive that you would label what I was saying as trolling. Guess your not of the character that I had originally thought.
Never did I say anywhere that the planes performance didn't have anything to do with the outcome of a dogfight. I merely suggested that it wasn't the most important factor in a fight.
I can understand why some of you seem to be so against this plane. It's not going to be a plane that the average pilot will be able to be sucessfull In a majority of the time. I get that.
What I was trying to get at was the planes on paper performance is not the be all end all in regards to how it will fair in a dogfight in our game here.
I bid you all a good day.
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Really a troll? That's what you got out of these post. I find it kind of offensive that you would label what I was saying as trolling. Guess your not of the character that I had originally thought.
Never did I say anywhere that the planes performance didn't have anything to do with the outcome of a dogfight. I merely suggested that it wasn't the most important factor in a fight.
I can understand why some of you seem to be so against this plane. It's not going to be a plane that the average pilot will be able to be sucessfull In a majority of the time. I get that.
What I was trying to get at was the planes on paper performance is not the be all end all in regards to how it will fair in a dogfight in our game here.
I bid you all a good day.
We're NOT against the plane.
We're saying no one will fly it.
We're explaining why no one will fly it.
If you want to make a case for why historic planes are important to the game even though they will see very little use, I'm on board.
If you are making a case that this plane will see a lot of use because the pilot makes all the difference, then the data on plane useage will prove you wrong. [case in point: Spit mkI, 109E, hurri I, C202, I-16 are all hangar queens.]
Many in the Ma fly high ENY planes to give themselves a challenge. But there is a point below which a plane is TOO much of a challenge. Mostly those planes have week guns. The best pilots stall fight an A20 for one snap shot against even a Spit XVI. The key is when they get that shot the Spit goes down. The Oscar will scratch the paint. After a few of those sorties, even the best pilots will want to give themselve a chance and move up to something with more punch.
With respect, :salute
vinkman
Come on dont get all upset. ;) I meant you no harm. :salute
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Vinkman,
You are, in broad, correct, but you are underselling the two 12.7mm guns by a bit. They are a superior armament to the Spitfire Mk Ia and Hurricane Mk I.
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Vinkman,
You are, in broad, correct, but you are underselling the two 12.7mm guns by a bit. They are a superior armament to the Spitfire Mk Ia and Hurricane Mk I.
True. :salute
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Vinkman,
You can get a feel for the Oscar and it's guns almost, by furballing in a Dauntless with 25% fuel. It has 2-50cal on the hood.
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Vinkman,
You can get a feel for the Oscar and it's guns almost, by furballing in a Dauntless with 25% fuel. It has 2-50cal on the hood.
I've spent hundreds of hours in a K4. When the taters are gone it's just the two cowl 12.7mm. You can kill a plane or two if he doesn't stick stir and you don't get picked first. No doubt there are pilots that are good enough shots to kill people with two .50s. I'm not really one of them. ;)
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The Ki-84 has the exact same two 12.7mm guns in the same position as the Ki-43's. Obviously the performance of the aircraft is different, but once the cannons are empty the Ki-84 kinda gives you a feel for them.
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The Ki-84 has the exact same two 12.7mm guns in the same position as the Ki-43's. Obviously the performance of the aircraft is different, but once the cannons are empty the Ki-84 kinda gives you a feel for them.
I got a kill with 18 of those MGs left.....a very lucky Pilot hit.....I was laughing all the way to the field :rofl
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I flew multiple aircrafts with limited weapons, Hurris, C.202s etc
The aim really has to be extreme to get a kill, snapshots and deflections won't land a kill, however it does enough damage. In my personal opinion you can pepper a target to death only if someone screws up royally enough to get shot down by some early war bird.
Against a decent stick I usually always get murdered, most of the time its a low skilled pilot who see's some ancient piece of crap and overjudges the pilot.
more then 70% of the time I am usually shot down.
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I see an argument from High-tone an experienced dogfighter and some kid who argues all day long who never manages a few hundred kills a tour period, even when he played full time.
I'll take my money on HT.
You mean the one that spent a lot of the time screwing around with squadies, or in tanks and ignored rank, kills, stats, etc? Yeah, cause score, ranks, stats, and kills are totally relevent in a scenario where really the only variable that can be measured with even a moticum of accuracy is time spent in game.
I always love it when you try and pull out stats, or rank, or some other nonsense that is not only unsupporting of your argument, but is also largely irrelvent. It just kind of shows you don't quite know whats going on.
And besides, I've fought HT before. Like I said, hes good, but hes not quite great, at least as of Sept. 2011.
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You mean the one that spent a lot of the time screwing around with squadies, or in tanks and ignored rank, kills, stats, etc? Yeah, cause score, ranks, stats, and kills are totally relevent in a scenario where really the only variable that can be measured with even a moticum of accuracy is time spent in game.
I always love it when you try and pull out stats, or rank, or some other nonsense that is not only unsupporting of your argument, but is also largely irrelvent. It just kind of shows you don't quite know whats going on.
And besides, I've fought HT before. Like I said, hes good, but hes not quite great, at least as of Sept. 2011.
Can any veteran player come forward and say you were any good? didn't think so ace.
High-Tone is far better then you want to believe, I've fought him countless times in a Scenario, if you think he's average you clearly need to go outside and breath some fresh air.
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Like I said, hes good, but hes not quite great, at least as of Sept. 2011.
You're weren't very good at all when you played. If I was you, I would refrain on passing judgement on another's skill level.
ack-ack
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I was decent, probably better than decent; theres a difference between lack of skill, and lack of effort, AKAK. You just bear some personal animosity towards me, and to be honest, I'm not the most fond of you either. That and I've seen you a grand total of about 6 times in the game over 6 years, and maybe only once in the year before I left.
Perhaps it would be wise for you to refrain from passing judgment on someone who you have virtually no information on, and next to no experience fighting.
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Can any veteran player come forward and say you were any good? didn't think so ace.
High-Tone is far better then you want to believe, I've fought him countless times in a Scenario, if you think he's average you clearly need to go outside and breath some fresh air.
I've never said he was average. You some how construed 'good, but not quite great' to mean that I'm some how underestimating him. If I were to try and manuver with him, I know I'd most likely lose, and quite quickly. Especially with no practice for 9 months. However, since he says he'd take a D3A, I know that essentially any fighter I have experience with will give me a huge margine of preformance to work with. In other words I can escape before he's done any serious damage.
If the D3A had a pair of .50's or 12.7mm's, then I'd worry about him making a kill during an overshoot through skill of aim. But with the 7.7's, I know that if I'm killed in the brief firing window he'd have in an overshoot, then odds are that I just got unlucky.
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lulz. This topic is supposed to be about the ki-43, not about how (not so) awesome some players are. Its really childish and not needed.
Both the plane and the pilot are major determining factors, maybe the pilot has more weight. Also, i fought HighTone and he was flying well, i cant say a bad word about him.
Draw, lads, chill, relax, open a cold beer...
so... btw... anyone has some info about the ki-43's dive and roll characteristics? Since Maker and Karnak posted some data, i find this aircraft more n more interesting.
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lulz. This topic is supposed to be about the ki-43, not about how (not so) awesome some players are. Its really childish and not needed.
Both the plane and the pilot are major determining factors, maybe the pilot has more weight. Also, i fought HighTone and he was flying well, i cant say a bad word about him.
Draw, lads, chill, relax, open a cold beer...
so... btw... anyone has some info about the ki-43's dive and roll characteristics? Since Maker and Karnak posted some data, i find this aircraft more n more interesting.
Brody's right, we hijacked the hell out of this topic.
I'm still opposed to the Ki-43 at this point in time, and I still feel theres no argument for it from the perspective of 'what it adds to the MA'.
But a good argument can be made for its historical significance.
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Perhaps it would be wise for you to refrain from passing judgment on someone who you have virtually no information on, and next to no experience fighting.
I do have experience fighting against you when you were both flying under the name Nemisis and Jager. Under both names you showed an amazing amount of lack of skill and thought you were good just because you flew in a squadron with a couple of decent sticks. You at no time were "decent" or "above average" you were firmly in the school of mediocrity and really had no hope of moving up from that spot. So, perhaps it would be wise for you to refrain on commenting about another's skill level when yours was so lacking and from commenting on such things as ACM and tactics because you don't have a clear grasp of either.
Enjoy.
ack-ack
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so... btw... anyone has some info about the ki-43's dive and roll characteristics? Since Maker and Karnak posted some data, i find this aircraft more n more interesting.
(http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww189/sasforever99030507/japfighters-comp.jpg)
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I do have experience fighting against you when you were both flying under the name Nemisis and Jager. Under both names you showed an amazing amount of lack of skill and thought you were good just because you flew in a squadron with a couple of decent sticks. You at no time were "decent" or "above average" you were firmly in the school of mediocrity and really had no hope of moving up from that spot. So, perhaps it would be wise for you to refrain on commenting about another's skill level when yours was so lacking and from commenting on such things as ACM and tactics because you don't have a clear grasp of either.
Enjoy.
ack-ack
Enough said. :aok
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I do have experience fighting against you when you were both flying under the name Nemisis and Jager. Under both names you showed an amazing amount of lack of skill and thought you were good just because you flew in a squadron with a couple of decent sticks. You at no time were "decent" or "above average" you were firmly in the school of mediocrity and really had no hope of moving up from that spot. So, perhaps it would be wise for you to refrain on commenting about another's skill level when yours was so lacking and from commenting on such things as ACM and tactics because you don't have a clear grasp of either.
Enjoy.
ack-ack
IIRC, you hadn't fought me once in the 10 months before I left, and only a bare handfull of times before that. Yet you think yourself capable of not only judging current skill level, but also total potential in what almost certinally ammounts to less than 3 minutes of interaction? If that is the case, then you, sir, are not only arrogant, but also ignorant.
As I've said before, you bear personal animosity towards me. I try not to let my dislike for you affect my postings, and I kindly ask that you show the same restraint. If not, we can always take this over to FW.
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IIRC, you hadn't fought me once in the 10 months before I left, and only a bare handfull of times before that. Yet you think yourself capable of not only judging current skill level, but also total potential in what almost certinally ammounts to less than 3 minutes of interaction? If that is the case, then you, sir, are not only arrogant, but also ignorant.
As I've said before, you bear personal animosity towards me. I try not to let my dislike for you affect my postings, and I kindly ask that you show the same restraint. If not, we can always take this over to FW.
Not sure if you read Akak's post, but I believe its spot on. You have some sort of ego protraying this "amazing Tanker or 109" pilot when in reality only 1% in this game stand out period, your apple isn't on that tree or anywhere near it.
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Tank Ace is a gongshow.
Nuff said
~JOACH1M~
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Don't even bother posting in here Tank. You are only making it worse for yourself. :uhoh
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Not sure if you read Akak's post, but I believe its spot on. You have some sort of ego protraying this "amazing Tanker or 109" pilot when in reality only 1% in this game stand out period, your apple isn't on that tree or anywhere near it.
I've never said I was amazing, I've said I was probably a better-than-average 109 stick, and a good tanker. However, some of you seem to lack the brain cells to comprehend that there is some space between 'poor' or even 'mediocre' on the one hand, and 'great' or 'amazing' on the other.
I assume you don't really see the world in shades of black and white like that. Yet for some reason, you seem to have trouble grasping what I say when it involves anything between two extremes of any sort. I'm not you, so I can't do anything about problems on your end, and so I leave it to you. Figure it out.
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(http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww189/sasforever99030507/japfighters-comp.jpg)
thanks, thats some useful stuff but isnt saying anything about the characteristics i asked for ;)
Some knowledge about the diving/rolling behaviour would be quite inportant as they are major determining factors of how successful the plane can be.
Just look the brewster or a hurricane, slow as hell, still can catch many planes if they come with altitude, couse they can reach high speeds without compression. In the other hand, the zeek can find itself in trouble.
Also the roll rate, just see how a spixteen can defeat a better turning spit8, or how an a6m3 can outscissor the a6m2.
If anyone has some flight test reports, feel free to post it. Ty
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I do have experience fighting against you when you were both flying under the name Nemisis and Jager. Under both names you showed an amazing amount of lack of skill and thought you were good just because you flew in a squadron with a couple of decent sticks. You at no time were "decent" or "above average" you were firmly in the school of mediocrity and really had no hope of moving up from that spot. So, perhaps it would be wise for you to refrain on commenting about another's skill level when yours was so lacking and from commenting on such things as ACM and tactics because you don't have a clear grasp of either.
Enjoy.
ack-ack
(http://www.wildsound-filmmaking-feedback-events.com/images/batman_pow_bam.jpg)
:rofl Tank-Ace posts are always great value...the kid has such a big mouth on the forum for someone who doesn't even play anymore
his backpedalling in this thread reminds me of what lulu posted recently "Wind hoots through the trouser, but the shoe is already wetting."
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IIRC, you hadn't fought me once in the 10 months before I left, and only a bare handfull of times before that. Yet you think yourself capable of not only judging current skill level, but also total potential in what almost certinally ammounts to less than 3 minutes of interaction?
yea I bet he can! Akak has played the game since AW. Even I can tell when I fight a noob if he has any potential to have some sort of skill in a few months.
As I've said before, you bear personal animosity towards me. I try not to let my dislike for you affect my postings, and I kindly ask that you show the same restraint. If not, we can always take this over to FW.
Come on over to FW, you're going to get shredded into little bits a pieces by those guys over there.
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To Tank-Ace
(http://images.wikia.com/world-war-2/images/c/c2/WWII_Propaganda_3.jpg)
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Seeing how strenuously people objected to the 950/1150/1190hp Ki-43-I/-II/-III as being inadequate for the game, it is going to be quite amusing to see how many objections arise for the most needed Italian fighter, the two 12.7mm armed, 840hp, open cockpited, C.200.
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It will be hangar queen although I want to see it too.
Ki-84-I-Otsu, Ki-44-II-Hei, Ki-100-I, J2M3 or Ki-61-II-KAI would be useful for Main Arena. :)
Hiya Mitsu ! Well at least I know two people would be flying it....but then again I like to fly Emils in LWMA. I think people would be very surprised would this little Queen could do to their uber birds. Besides ....we need a little something more to counter with the deadly Brewster Buffalo.
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Seeing how strenuously people objected to the 950/1150/1190hp Ki-43-I/-II/-III as being inadequate for the game, it is going to be quite amusing to see how many objections arise for the most needed Italian fighter, the two 12.7mm armed, 840hp, open cockpited, C.200.
I would fly it. :airplane:
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I'm a very biased, but I just don't accept that "We don't need it because it is outclassed in the MA."
This game is so much more than the MA. There are hundreds of players that would have left long ago if we didn't have special events.
The Oscar will be used extensively in places other than the MA.
AMEN!
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Yep. And it was a fun toy in WarBirds back in the day. It also has a very nice power to weight ratio especially when comparing it to other maneuverable but slow fighters.
It was DEADLY in WBs.
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shooting down what aircraft?
You can quote history, but the MA isn't history in action. The plane will be a hangar queen because it will be very uncompetitive in the LW-MA which is where 98% of the sorties are flown.
And this is the saddest, worst reason NOT to have it.
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my opinion on the whole debate about pilot "skill" vs "plane performance"
the closer to skill the 2 pilots are, plane performance becomes more of a factor....it is simple really
a vet (who actually fights) will always win against a noob in the better plane...even if the planes performance are at opposite ends of the spectrum.....
2 pilots of equal skill (in all aspects of fighting) in the same plane with equal E....it will be the first one that makes a mistake that loses......
2 pilots of equal skill.... the one that is in the better performing plane, will win..... the easier the win will be if the planes performance is further apart.
the great thing about dogfighting are all the variables....NO 2 dogfights are ever the same, that is why I find dogfighting so enthralling.
^^This
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I mean absolutely no offense when I say this but considering the years of experience and expertise of HT and staff how difficult can it be to add ANY oft used WWII plane, particularly one which has been modeled in the past.
I feel the Yak 3 is just as good a candidate for addition as the Oscar.
This IS a wishlist.
I had no Idea my simple long asked for wish would arouse so much controversy, and I Salute all of you on all sides of the issue.
Where were we....Man, I wish we had an Oscar and Yak3.....and birds, yeah birds we could collide with and and and :pray
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And this is the saddest, worst reason NOT to have it.
I challenge you to produce the HUNDREDS of people who would have left the game except for scenarios [featuring old outdated fighters]
You made that up.
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Hiya Mitsu ! Well at least I know two people would be flying it....but then again I like to fly Emils in LWMA. I think people would be very surprised would this little Queen could do to their uber birds. Besides ....we need a little something more to counter with the deadly Brewster Buffalo.
Yeah, Brewster Buffalo is dangerous turner in AH.
In history Japanese pilots shot down them easily though.
I'm interested that how the oscar turns against them in AH.
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Some people will fly it in the MA, as to those who won't...how exactly will it hurt you to include it in the stable? It's not like HTC
is going to pull your latewar uberiron to make room for it. :confused:
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Yeah, Brewster Buffalo is dangerous turner in AH.
In history Japanese pilots shot down them easily though.
I'm interested that how the oscar turns against them in AH.
Did the Japanese fight many Finns?
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I challenge you to produce the HUNDREDS of people who would have left the game except for scenarios [featuring old outdated fighters]
You made that up.
He's not the one who said that, I did, and it's speculation.
I know there are plenty of folks that fly special events and AvA and rarely or never fly in the MA.
The Oscar and many other outdated fighters are very useful for more historically based play and there is a market here for that. In this type of play, they aren't matched against F4U-Cs and P-51D's.
It's not like the MA is starving for late war uber rides.
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Did the Japanese fight many Finns?
No, RAF's buffalo fought against Oscar/ZEKE over Malay Peninsula.
Also 19 F2A-3s were used in Midway battle, 13 F2As were shot down by ZEKE.
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Mitsu,
Keep in mind that the version we have in AH is the one the Finns use, which is substantially more agile with lower wing loading than the F2A-3s and B-339s the Japanese faced.
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Mitsu,
Keep in mind that the version we have in AH is the one the Finns use, which is substantially more agile with lower wing loading than the F2A-3s and B-339s the Japanese faced.
Without credible source its impossible to mod an accurate buffalo, the best I could post is the after action report at Midway in which buffalo pilots were claiming zeros were flying at 450 mph in level flight.
I have no resources to prove otherwise of what buffalos can do, sadly.
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Without credible source its impossible to mod an accurate buffalo, the best I could post is the after action report at Midway in which buffalo pilots were claiming zeros were flying at 450 mph in level flight.
I have no resources to prove otherwise of what buffalos can do, sadly.
That doesn't really apply to the Buffalo though. We do have credible sources for them. Certainly for the US and Finnish versions.
I know you don't trust the Finnish data, but based on their kill claims* I think the Finns were pretty rigorous when it comes to the accuracy of data.
*Finland was the only participant in the war who's kill claims were lower than the enemy's loss records.
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Mitsu,
Keep in mind that the version we have in AH is the one the Finns use, which is substantially more agile with lower wing loading than the F2A-3s and B-339s the Japanese faced.
Also Finnish pilots skill were almost high like Japanese pilots in early war.
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Also Finnish pilots skill were almost high like Japanese pilots in early war.
Almost? :D
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I challenge you to produce the HUNDREDS of people who would have left the game except for scenarios [featuring old outdated fighters]
You made that up.
Plz review the thread.....I didn't make that up because I didn't make that statement. I only agreed with part of it.
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Did the Japanese fight many Finns?
What difference does that make? There are plenty of fantasy matchups in the MA already. You obviously missed the sarcasm....try again.
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I mean absolutely no offense when I say this but considering the years of experience and expertise of HT and staff how difficult can it be to add ANY oft used WWII plane, particularly one which has been modeled in the past.
To reiterate.
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Tbh, lads; this game is solely about fun.
Nothing more then a young boys idle dream made into virtual reality. We all wanted to do this kind of stuff before computers were capable of it and now they are. Confirmed Kill, Air Warrior, Warbirds, Aces High are all just expressions of that dream.
Do we need fancy planes with intensely strategic scenarios and perks and all these other things?
No; we just need eachother! The more the community and the game seperates itself from that innocent, fragile dream, the less popular and less mainstream it gets.
Lets just enjoy these times and moments and let HT and the other guys worry bout what belongs in the game and what doesnt!
Peace out yo!
:airplane:
(Now as to where the dream comes from; not a topic for this convo, but interesting one: Very likely)
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Tbh, lads; this game is solely about fun.
Nothing more then a young boys idle dream made into virtual reality. We all wanted to do this kind of stuff before computers were capable of it and now they are. Confirmed Kill, Air Warrior, Warbirds, Aces High are all just expressions of that dream.
Do we need fancy planes with intensely strategic scenarios and perks and all these other things?
No; we just need eachother! The more the community and the game seperates itself from that innocent, fragile dream, the less popular and less mainstream it gets.
Lets just enjoy these times and moments and let HT and the other guys worry bout what belongs in the game and what doesnt!
Peace out yo!
:airplane:
(Now as to where the dream comes from; not a topic for this convo, but interesting one: Very likely)
While I agree with most of what you say....this IS a WISHLIST, HT provided this WISHLIST for us to WISH in. Peace back at ya.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y
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Nevermind.
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Or would you rather argue over people making wishes in a forum titled wishlist?
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What difference does that make? There are plenty of fantasy matchups in the MA already. You obviously missed the sarcasm....try again.
Actually I think my statement, which wasn't directed to you at all, went way over your head. I'm guessing that your bitterness is causing you to not think clearly.
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That doesn't really apply to the Buffalo though. We do have credible sources for them. Certainly for the US and Finnish versions.
I know you don't trust the Finnish data, but based on their kill claims* I think the Finns were pretty rigorous when it comes to the accuracy of data.
*Finland was the only participant in the war who's kill claims were lower than the enemy's loss records.
Its not I don't trust the Data, I simply cannot read it - or Russian/Japanese for that matter - which most manuals I have run across that i've bought happen to be in russian or polish etc. However in the recent year the website I used to buy all my PDF's from
suddenly stop letting me view the "book" before buying it - which now is a shot in the dark when seeing if it had any credible data - even if it was in another language I would buy it just so I could say hey! something new here.
As for the kill claim - i've never been able to track down just how the fins scored less then exaggerating numbers, even Japan with all its Aces seemed to over exaggerate events (Coral See for example a Tanker was mistaken for a Carrier).
Its quite possible since Robin Olds should of been an Ace in the Vietnam, however its well known he flew "unrecorded", since he wasn't suppose to be flying period.
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The Japanese were probably the most egregious overclaimers among fighter pilots. Mostly, I think, because they didn't really have an established method for claiming kills and, at least for most of the war, kills were given to the unit, not the individual.
The Germans were pretty good at times, but they still claimed three times as many as they got in the Battle of Britain. During the first month of the battle the British actually claimed less than they got, but they made up for that in the subsequent two months by claiming about two and a half times what they actually got.
I do thing, to a degree, there is a morale factor in letting your pilots and crews claims stand when you know they are bogus. Certain the USAAF's 8th air force knew that the kill claims by the bombers were wildly exaggerated, by about a factor of ten, but for morale purposes they let them stand. On the other end, the Luftwaffe under Hermann Goering took the Luftwaffe's claims in the Battle of Britain at face value and insisted the RAF was down to its last 50 Spitfires.
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Actually I think my statement, which wasn't directed to you at all, went way over your head. I'm guessing that your bitterness is causing you to not think clearly.
I apologize if I misunderstood you Sir.......and I'm not bitter, poed nor experiencing any negativity towards anyone or anything regarding this thread.
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Plz review the thread.....I didn't make that up because I didn't make that statement. I only agreed with part of it.
It was pointed out that I responded to the wrong poster. My appologies.
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I hadn't noticed that when I responded Vink, No prob friend, :salute