Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Hajo on July 17, 2012, 10:26:33 AM
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When the Penn State report was reported by the former head of the FBI and former Federal Judge it was a shock.
I was giving the benefit of the doubt beforehand. All are innocent until proven guillty. However I'm not being as kind now.
The NCAA is considering if there were violations. That is an understatement. Violations? Is the NCAA not paying attention?
SMU got the death penalty for paying some of their players when they were already on Probation. Ohio State lost some
Scholarships, suspended 5 players and fired the Coach not to mention Bowl eligibilty taken away. All over trading memorabilia
for tatoos. Other violations by School can be listed USC etc. It seems as if Penn State is still trying to ignore the fact of the heinous
crimes that were perpetrated on thier property. These incidents were first noted in 1998.
Sandusky retired in 1999. This gives me reason to think all was not well at that time and Penn State knew it. Penn State
thought nothing of the victims. Just PSUs' reputation. NCAA better come down on PSU. This can not be passed over.
The NCAA will then be accused of protecting their reputation and their inability to control its' members.
What say you?
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I say this is a topic which cannot be discussed, on this board, due to too many people not being able to control personal impulse reactions and yet have convinced themselves their reactions are so important everyone wants to see them.
In other words, I need to prepare for an onslaught of posting rules violations. If clocks were as predictable,...oh wait,...they are.
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Well, what happened is very frightening and disgusting.
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Well, what happened is very frightening and disgusting.
I agree and that is a reasonable response.
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When the Penn State report was reported by the former head of the FBI and former Federal Judge it was a shock.
I was giving the benefit of the doubt beforehand. All are innocent until proven guillty. However I'm not being as kind now.
The NCAA is considering if there were violations. That is an understatement. Violations? Is the NCAA not paying attention?
SMU got the death penalty for paying some of their players when they were already on Probation. Ohio State lost some
Scholarships, suspended 5 players and fired the Coach not to mention Bowl eligibilty taken away. All over trading memorabilia
for tatoos. Other violations by School can be listed USC etc. It seems as if Penn State is still trying to ignore the fact of the heinous
crimes that were perpetrated on thier property. These incidents were first noted in 1998.
Sandusky retired in 1999. This gives me reason to think all was not well at that time and Penn State knew it. Penn State
thought nothing of the victims. Just PSUs' reputation. NCAA better come down on PSU. This can not be passed over.
The NCAA will then be accused of protecting their reputation and their inability to control its' members.
What say you?
Should the players be punished for what administrators in the program did and did not do?
I do not think so let the legal system dole out punishment for the crimes committed not the NCAA. That is my opinion.
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Please discuss this as adults. Let's just simplify this by just focusing on the NCAA action or non action in this case.
I'm sure all of us are outraged at what has been done. Let's all just assume that without going into great detail.
I don't wish to be responsible for 1.) a stroke or 2.) or a heart attack being a possibility caused by skuzzy overload. ;)
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Fortunately in their infinite wisdom, the Penn State Board of Trustees voted to keep JoePa's statue because his accomplishments on the field overshadowed anything that happened off the field.
The trustees "are hoping they can have more time pass and people will forget about it and then it won't come down." "We don't want to jump the gun again," the trustee said. "When we did that in November, look where we ended up. If it does have to come down, it will be after much deliberation and discussion. If I had my way, (the statue) will always be there. People can take from it what they want."
http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/8166643/joe-paterno-statue-remain-penn-state-sources-say
(http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/penn-states-new-logo.jpg)
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I say this is a topic which cannot be discussed, on this board, due to too many people not being able to control personal impulse reactions and yet have convinced themselves their reactions are so important everyone wants to see them.
In other words, I need to prepare for an onslaught of posting rules violations. If clocks were as predictable,...oh wait,...they are.
I say you get 2 pages and about 3 and a third posts. As for the statue I dont know what kinda message that sends. What do future players think, maybe that if they win on field they can get away with things, I always respected Joepa and Penn State thought they were a good clean program until all this came out. Now I just hope they can repair thier image on and off the field. Covering up something THIS heinous is truely unforgivable to me.
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Should the players be punished for what administrators in the program did and did not do?
I do not think so let the legal system dole out punishment for the crimes committed not the NCAA. That is my opinion.
Players of other institutions suffered also as I said in my original post. When sanctions are applied many suffer.
In this case the University and Football Coaches are at fault. A football coach using the universitys good name
is the culprit. Thus the football program suffers. Remember not all players at Ohio state, SMU and USC etc. were involved
yet the NCAA threw down sanctions. What is fair to one is fair for all.
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Players of other institutions suffered also as I said in my original post. When sanctions are applied many suffer.
In this case the University and Football Coaches are at fault. A football coach using the universitys good name
is the culprit. Thus the football program suffers. Remember not all players at Ohio state, SMU and USC etc. were involved
yet the NCAA threw down sanctions. What is fair to one is fair for all.
Players also benefited in those cases. Furthermore the circumstances are vastly different than those cases.
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(http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/penn-states-new-logo.jpg)
Oh. My. God.
I'm going to Hell for laughing at that. :rofl
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Players of other institutions suffered also as I said in my original post. When sanctions are applied many suffer.
Yes but USC and Ohio State were close to Loss of Institutional controll(actually USC got hit with this I belive) that means violations by player was rampant and it was shown that they GAINED from these actions. Yes the innocent players SUFFERED but there were GAINS made by the student, where as in Penn St. case there was no gain by any of the players and was not rampant wide spread violations. It was a way worse violation in my book but it gained the players nothing so why shoudl they suffer? The shool should be hit in sanctions but not is scholies or a post season ban , but in a tv blackout and large donations from the ticket monies of each game to a charity.
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Fortunately in their infinite wisdom, the Penn State Board of Trustees voted to keep JoePa's statue because his accomplishments on the field overshadowed anything that happened off the field.
http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/8166643/joe-paterno-statue-remain-penn-state-sources-say
(http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/penn-states-new-logo.jpg)
Unfortunately joepa felt the same way thereby empowering a child molester.
A really terrible bunch of so called adults. They all ended up being accessories to the crimes.
I say the school/teams get sanctioned harshly.
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Unfortunately joepa felt the same way thereby empowering a child molester.
A really terrible bunch of so called adults. They all ended up being accessories to the crimes.
I say the school/teams get sanctioned harshly.
Why not just burn penn state to the ground?
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Hanging the Criminals & protecting the school seems reasonable to me. Why should every student & athlete me stigmatized because of one "Monster"s crimes. The phrase "Tickle-Monster" will never feel the same... :furious
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Why not just burn penn state to the ground?
Burning stuff is more of a Michigan State past time. (http://cache.deadspin.com/assets/images/11/2009/04/msucarnage.jpg) Sparty on Little brother, Sparty on.
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Why not just burn penn state to the ground?
It's still a school... or is at this point. Punishment is required to at least try to keep this school from making any more poor judgements that might harm more folks for life.
Turning a blind eye to this problem will only create more of what has happened at this school for years.
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It's still a school... or is at this point. Punishment is required to at least try to keep this school from making any more poor judgements that might harm more folks for life.
Turning a blind eye to this problem will only create more of what has happened at this school for years.
Yes punishment is required, jail time for individuals involved, not sanctions on the school.
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Fortunately in their infinite wisdom, the Penn State Board of Trustees voted to keep JoePa's statue because his accomplishments on the field overshadowed anything that happened off the field.
Unless they put a 24 hour guard with a nigh unbribable paycheck I wouldn't give two pennies for that statue living to the end of this year.
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Unless they put a 24 hour guard with a nigh unbribable paycheck I wouldn't give two pennies for that statue living to the end of this year.
to many people Joepa=Penn St. so staute makes it until the School removes it.
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Yes punishment is required, jail time for individuals involved, not sanctions on the school.
That is not how the NCAA has reacted historically. This was a school and football staff problem. It must be dealt with in a timely manner or the NCAA will no longer be the controlling entity. They cannot treat this school or football system any differently than they have others in the past.
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That is not how the NCAA has reacted historically. This was a school and football staff problem. It must be dealt with in a timely manner or the NCAA will no longer be the controlling entity. They cannot treat this school or football system any differently than they have others in the past.
I do not recall something like this happening before.
If you are referring to SMU and Ohio State, once again vastly different circumstances that cannot even be compared reasonably to this situation.
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. They cannot treat this school or football system any differently than they have others in the past.
yeah but when is the last time they had this come up? Never, this is a completely unique case, how do they do justice? where should They draw the line?> What is too soft or what is too harsh. This aint some kids trading rings and stolen Game equipment for tattoos, or for deals on cars, or for charging to apear a charity. This is a coach covering up the CRIMES off another coach.
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In my opinion the NCAA should sanction the football program severely.
Colleges make a tremendous amount of money from athletic programs. So much so in this case that those in power were willing to turn a blind eye to the sexual abuse of minors, to protect the reputation of their institution.
They need to made an example of in order to create a genuine disincentive for those in charge of athletic programs.
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http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8163189/penn-state-cannot-allowed-football-team
Shut down the program.
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Let the school heal, there's no sense in penalizing the football program or athletics.
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Fortunately in their infinite wisdom, the Penn State Board of Trustees voted to keep JoePa's statue because his accomplishments on the field overshadowed anything that happened off the field.
You all might find this interesting, in ancient Greece they at a "Hall of Shame" for disgraced athletes, the 'Zanes'. Maybe the Paterno statue is something of a modern day equivalent.
"Just outside the entrance to the ancient stadium in Olympia—the site of the first Olympic Games in 776 B.C.—stand a series of crumbling stone bases known as the Zanes. Battered remains of bronze statues (the earliest are thought to date from 388 B.C.), they once stood as an Olympic walk of shame.
If an athlete broke his Olympic oath—common violations included bribery, tardiness, cowardice, lying and fraud—he was fined and forced to purchase a statue of Zeus. The name of the athlete and, in some cases, his father's name plus his Greek city-state were inscribed on the base of the statue, which was then placed along the entranceway to the great stadium. "
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In my opinion the NCAA should sanction the football program severely.
Colleges make a tremendous amount of money from athletic programs. So much so in this case that those in power were willing to turn a blind eye to the sexual abuse of minors, to protect the reputation of their institution.
They need to made an example of in order to create a genuine disincentive for those in charge of athletic programs.
Yeha but why punish the team? fine make them hurt financially give them a tv balckout and ticket sales dontations.
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http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8163189/penn-state-cannot-allowed-football-team
Shut down the program.
Man I think ESPN is gettig as bad as the Freep. Tupac why would you agree to shut the school down what are your convictions towards shutting the team down, and the kids that gave have been at Penn Stater for 4-5 years butsing butt to play ball and get thier classes done?
Please never link an ESPN story thye dont do ay fact checking and throw any garbage out there they want.
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Yeha but why punish the team? fine make them hurt financially give them a tv balckout and ticket sales dontations.
That might be a reasonable solution. It has to hurt financially somehow.
Perhaps giving a 3 year window to allow current players to finish, but then end the football program for some period after that so incoming freshmen may consider other programs if they want to play football.
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Man I think ESPN is gettig as bad as the Freep. Tupac why would you agree to shut the school down what are your convictions towards shutting the team down, and the kids that gave have been at Penn Stater for 4-5 years butsing butt to play ball and get thier classes done?
Please never link an ESPN story thye dont do ay fact checking and throw any garbage out there they want.
I meant shut the football program down, not the school.
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Let the school heal, there's no sense in penalizing the football program or athletics.
There is every sense, considering Penn State should suffer civilly (if not criminally as well) for the actions. Which means a lot of money from Penn State will be going to pay the victims and I hope the money comes directly from the football program.
In addition, with this new release of material, I hope the individuals effected by the poor choices of the school's leadership get compensated financially as well, including suits aimed at the late Paterno's estate.
The fat lady has sung and it is time for those responsible to make restitution.
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I meant shut the football program down, not the school.
I think what he means is those (innocent) students currently playing football would be punished by the football program being shut down.
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Why not just burn penn state to the ground?
Hopefully this a joke. Not defending the molestation but its still a school.
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I think what he means is those (innocent) students currently playing football would be punished by the football program being shut down.
Too bad.
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Hopefully this a joke. Not defending the molestation but its still a school.
Sarcasm ace it is the most obvious thing about me remember.
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I meant shut the football program down, not the school.
Yes and the football program is mad eup of student Athletes why punish them. also you didnt give a reason why thta would be warrented, as you get more into sports(if you do) you'll learn that ESPN is a joke.
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Too bad.
Why? Can you give a reason? Why you think the program should be shut down? Dont link the ESPIN article tell me why you think that would be a resonable action? I beat Joachim would have a very concise and well researched response.
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Sarcasm ace it is the most obvious thing about me remember.
:)
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Why? Can you give a reason? Why you think the program should be shut down? Dont link the ESPIN article tell me why you think that would be a resonable action? I beat Joachim would have a very concise and well researched response.
What is your reasoning to want to keep a football program open that harbors pederasts? Shut it down. Shoot Sandusky and jail the enablers that let it continue.
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What is your reasoning to want to keep a football program open that harbors pederasts? Shut it down. Shoot Sandusky and jail the enablers that let it continue.
Because we don't punish large groups of people who had nothing to do with harboring a criminal.
If a guy robs a bank and runs to hide in his apartment do you charge everyone living in the same complex with harboring a fugitive?
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I do not recall something like this happening before.
If you are referring to SMU and Ohio State, once again vastly different circumstances that cannot even be compared reasonably to this situation.
You are correct.... those schools issues were a drop in the bucket by comparison.
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If a guy robs a bank and runs to hide in his apartment do you charge everyone living in the same complex with harboring a fugitive?
No, but charge whoever assisted the fugitive (criminally and civilly) , even if it means the entire building goes into foreclosure. Do not hold back on punishment because you don't want to hurt anyone. The damage is done, there are victims but the victim is not Penn State or its leadership.
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What is your reasoning to want to keep a football program open that harbors pederasts? Shut it down. Shoot Sandusky and jail the enablers that let it continue.
Im noit taking that bait myself, MY reasoning is because the actions of the few should not determine the actions of the many. You read an article by some ESPIN hack and decided it made excellent troll bait. wouldn't it help out the victim's and thier families more to take a portion of the reveune made at ball games rather than shutting down a program that supports many other programs? I dont see womens weightlifting bringing in very much revenue to keep itself afloat.
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Because we don't punish large groups of people who had nothing to do with harboring a criminal.
If a guy robs a bank and runs to hide in his apartment do you charge everyone living in the same complex with harboring a fugitive?
Im sure there were innocents in the SMU scandal that were punished too. My opinion stays the same, it's not like anyone who matters cares what I think. It's just one donutwoods opinion. While they are busy shutting down the football program though, they need to tear down the statue of Joe "Pederast Pal" Paterno.
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No, but charge whoever assisted the fugitive (criminally and civilly) , even if it means the entire building goes into foreclosure. Do not hold back on punishment because you don't want to hurt anyone.
We are talking about NCAA sanctions here. I agree go after the individuals who committed criminal acts not the organization who they worked for.
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Im sure there were innocents in the SMU scandal that were punished too. My opinion stays the same, it's not like anyone who matters cares what I think. It's just one donutwoods opinion. While they are busy shutting down the football program though, they need to tear down the statue of Joe "Pederast Pal" Paterno.
Yes but the players themselves gained at SMU( do you even know WHY they were nailed?) I, matter and I, care what you think, better yet I care why and I have not seen a soild defense of ESPN's opinion yet, I do note you are getting desperate and uncomfortable being put on the cruicible and are now resorting to calling a recently passed human being names when neither he nor his family are likely to come here and defend the Name.
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Im sure there were innocents in the SMU scandal that were punished too. My opinion stays the same, it's not like anyone who matters cares what I think. It's just one donutwoods opinion. While they are busy shutting down the football program though, they need to tear down the statue of Joe "Pederast Pal" Paterno.
SMU was about paying players which is much different. As players also benefited from the rules violations they had no choice but punish the collective.
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Im noit taking that bait myself, MY reasoning is because the actions of the few should not determine the actions of the many. You read an article by some ESPIN hack and decided it made excellent troll bait. wouldn't it help out the victim's and thier families more to take a portion of the reveune made at ball games rather than shutting down a program that supports many other programs? I dont see womens weightlifting bringing in very much revenue to keep itself afloat.
The powers that be, or were, should have thought of what may happen when they were eventually caught. Some of the emails ran in that direction but were shot down. The school...... each and every student, faculty, and coaches were responsible for the simple blind faith way of life at penn state. Folks who knew were afraid to say a thing for fear of being attacked or losing one's job. Penn States whole culture was the driving force behind what happened.
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The players have been told (including signs reading: "Ignore The Noise") to not pay attention to all the news reports but that is an impossibility.
The players have been expecting a shut-down of the program, known as "The Death Penalty" since the story went public, not to mention the recent VERY public trial.
It's not fair to the players and what other team staff that were completely unaware of the issue to destroy the entire program, and that does not include the fact that the PSU program was one of the most successful in the country for decades.
Those players (who are not guilty of anything) have worked themselves to exhaustion day after day since they were in Junior High to even get a chance of being on the team...much less a scholarship to one of the most prestigious programs in the nation. It's not exactly an easy thing to officially red shirt while you go looking for a new school to play for and possibly lose a chance at a college education by going elsewhere and losing their scholarship.
The players are not to blame. Those to blame are either dead or awaiting sentencing.
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SMU was about paying players which is much different. As players also benefited from the rules violations they had no choice but punish the collective.
The penn state problem, other than children being molested on school grounds, also included turning a blind eye towards players on and off campus illegal activities.
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The powers that be, or were, should have thought of what may happen when they were eventually caught. Some of the emails ran in that direction but were shot down. The school...... each and every student, faculty, and coaches were responsible for the simple blind faith way of life at penn state. Folks who knew were afraid to say a thing for fear of being attacked or losing one's job. Penn States whole culture was the driving force behind what happened.
Because you automatically can tell these things. I don't think anyone assumes that someone you know, who appears to be a normal guy, does such heinous things.
The people who knew something for 100% sure should be charged with a crime / banned from NCAA.
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The penn state problem, other than children being molested on school grounds, also included turning a blind eye towards players on and off campus illegal activities.
You cannot lump the two things together.
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The powers that be, or were, should have thought of what may happen when they were eventually caught. Some of the emails ran in that direction but were shot down. The school...... each and every student, faculty, and coaches were responsible for the simple blind faith way of life at penn state. Folks who knew were afraid to say a thing for fear of being attacked or losing one's job. Penn States whole culture was the driving force behind what happened.
So in a nu shell just because youre on campus you shoudl be lible? Well I think all the people in Pittsburg should also be lible for being in the same state and anyone that bought a Penn State hat no matter what hemposhere they reside in shoudl be lible. I especcily like the fact that a frosh jsut coming up shoudl be held lible for a coverup theat has been ongoing since 1995, that implies the coverup was in fact in place before they even got on campus. I can see punishing the guilty in this case but the Dorm Mom of Dorm 12 E shouldnt be getting nailed
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The penn state problem, other than children being molested on school grounds, also included turning a blind eye towards players on and off campus illegal activities.
So taking free movie tickets from a booster is equivelent to some guy 10 years ago touching a child and your ccoach coverd it up THEN?
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Because you automatically can tell these things. I don't think anyone assumes that someone you know, who appears to be a normal guy, does such heinous things.
The people who knew something for 100% sure should be charged with a crime / banned from NCAA.
No...... because if you have an idea something like this is happening you report it and let the authorities handle it. You don't hide it so you or your group do not look bad and you can continue raking in money. The "machine", those in the know and those reaping the benefit though ignorance, should bear the brunt of the penalty. The "machine" being those that blindly say "we are penn state" believing that makes everything ok.
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We are talking about NCAA sanctions here. I agree go after the individuals who committed criminal acts not the organization who they worked for.
If the same individuals involved are still working at Penn State, the entire football program should be banned from playing.
If Penn State wants to fire them and announce a letter of condemnation against Paterno, it would be a different story altogether. Until that happens, the 'precious' football program can (and will) suffer.
Hang them separately, or they can all hang together.
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No...... because if you have an idea something like this is happening you report it and let the authorities handle it. You don't hide it so you or your group do not look bad and you can continue raking in money. The "machine", those in the know and those reaping the benefit though ignorance, should bear the brunt of the penalty. The "machine being those that blindly say "we are penn state" believing that makes everything ok.
so closing the "money machine" in which kids work their butts of f to get a full ride for an education is a logical decision? when the perpetratiors of the crime are being punished? You do realised the football players them selves were between the ages of 1-5 when this all happend correct and the cover up was already in place by the time they spoke thier first word?
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If the same individuals involved are still working at Penn State, the entire football program should be banned from playing.
If Penn State wants to fire them and announce a letter of condemnation against Paterno, it would be a different story altogether. Until that happens, the 'precious' football program can (and will) suffer.
Hang them separately, or they can all hang together.
lol next time someone runs a red light in youre town I say you shoudl be charged with running a red aswell. So punish some kids that were around 1 yrear old when this all went down? That is a completly logical idea.
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I say this is a topic which cannot be discussed, on this board, due to too many people not being able to control personal impulse reactions and yet have convinced themselves their reactions are so important everyone wants to see them.
A bit off topic, but doesn't that describe every single discussion on the forums? :angel:
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If the same individuals involved are still working at Penn State, the entire football program should be banned from playing.
If Penn State wants to fire them and announce a letter of condemnation against Paterno, it would be a different story altogether. Until that happens, the 'precious' football program can suffer.
No I do not agree. Overreaching because your emotions are ruling your judgment. Like I said just burn the place to the ground if it would make you feel better.
People should pay for their crimes not the entire college.
No...... because if you have an idea something like this is happening you report it and let the authorities handle it. You don't hide it so you or your group do not look bad and you can continue raking in money. The "machine", those in the know and those reaping the benefit though ignorance, should bear the brunt of the penalty. The "machine" being those that blindly say "we are penn state" believing that makes everything ok.
No you don't hide but the entire college should not pay for individuals crimes. You missed my point it is impossible for someone to just know, without proof that someone is a criminal.
You act as if the entire college knew about this and just did not say anything.
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I'm done with the thread, before Skuzzy brings out the ban hammer.
Just like before I know I will be proven correct in time.
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I'm done with the thread, before Skuzzy brings out the ban hammer.
Just like before I know I will be proven correct in time.
That is probably for the best because it is obvious you cannot detach your emotions from your opinion.
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No I do not agree. Overreaching because your emotions are ruling your judgment. Like I said just burn the place to the ground if it would make you feel better.
People should pay for their crimes not the entire college.
No you don't hide but the entire college should not pay for individuals crimes. You missed my point it is impossible for someone to just know, without proof that someone is a criminal.
You act as if the entire college knew about this and just did not say anything.
The college is just as at fault for their blind faith following, don't rock the boat attitude. As it turns out there were quite a few who knew about the issue (some first hand) and several who feared saying anything because of this blind faith.
BTW I must commend you and the others who have posted on this thread and kept it on the up and up. By doing so I understand your thoughts and I just disagree. It does not make one any more right than the other. All good opinions. It will be interesting to see where all this will end at penn state.
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The college is just as at fault for their blind faith following, don't rock the boat attitude.
Well that is one opinion.
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Well that is one opinion.
Yes.... at penn state it enabled the enablers.
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Because we don't punish large groups of people who had nothing to do with harboring a criminal.
If a guy robs a bank and runs to hide in his apartment do you charge everyone living in the same complex with harboring a fugitive?
I understand what you are trying to say, however the example isn't apples to apples.
Punitive punishment is defined as imposing a negative on a person/group/organization, etc. In this case closing the football program at Penn State is imposing a punishment on the institution.
Now while the players can no longer play for Penn State, there is no punishment imposed on them individually that precludes them from going to another school to play, or opting not to play at all.
Also, there are numerous cases where a business receives a steep fine or is forced out of business due to legal action. While it may be the CEO or Board of Trustees committed the offense, there will be many middle level workers who did nothing wrong legally and unfortunately be affected through no fault of there own (Enron).
This would be a closer analogy for the football players themselves. While they committed no crime, their organization did.
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I'm done with the thread, before Skuzzy brings out the ban hammer.
Just like before I know I will be proven correct in time.
Im sure those responisble will be punsihed aswell but a blanket statment like hang em all or hang just some of them" really isnt sporting to claim as vindicatition of being correct. Is a totally unque situation and those responible will be punished but this isnt about a simple athlete taking movie tickets from a booster amnd the team covering it up and I find it scandolus you would equate the two as such.
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I understand what you are trying to say, however the example isn't apples to apples.
Punitive punishment is defined as imposing a negative on a person/group/organization, etc. In this case closing the football program at Penn State is imposing a punishment on the institution.
Now while the players can no longer play for Penn State, there is no punishment imposed on them individually that precludes them from going to another school to play, or opting not to play at all.
Also, there are numerous cases where a business receives a steep fine or is forced out of business due to legal action. While it may be the CEO or Board of Trustees committed the offense, there will be many middle level workers who did nothing wrong legally and unfortunately be affected through no fault of there own (Enron).
This would be a closer analogy for the football players themselves. While they committed no crime, their organization did.
Yeah I considered using a ceo and group of board members as an example. Then I remembered that they get fined so hard they collapse and mid level dude get shafted.
I do not think this is the best way to handle this situation.
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OK if anyone can answer why a person that was one to five years old at the time the incident happend and the cover up was put in place, should be culpable I will throw my hat in with the whole "close the program crowd" but I will also have to accept that I too am a part of the Roswell cover up by default then as the goverment is perpitarating the cover up and I am not blowing the whistle on it :aok
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OK if anyone can answer why a person that was one to five years old at the time the incident happend and the cover up was put in place, should be culpable I will throw my hat in with the whole "close the program crowd" but I will also have to accept that I too am a part of the Roswell cover up by default then as the goverment is perpitarating the cover up and I am not blowing the whistle on it :aok
They are not culpable but they are caught in the middle. They are going to the school/business that created/enabled the problem. You might understand that this has been happening for years. I believe I read where as recently as 2008 it was still happening.
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OK if anyone can answer why a person that was one to five years old at the time the incident happend and the cover up was put in place, should be culpable I will throw my hat in with the whole "close the program crowd" but I will also have to accept that I too am a part of the Roswell cover up by default then as the goverment is perpitarating the cover up and I am not blowing the whistle on it :aok
The players, and fans for that matter, are not guilty or culpable, but neither can it be said they would be punished per se by closing the program.
The players will have the freedom to transfer and play for another college or continue to attend the university and get an education. They just won't be able to play football for Penn State. In light of the severity of the crimes, denying some kids or fans of their 'football fun' seems paltry.
The punishment for Penn State, and in particular the football program needs to be severe, and one which affects the bottom line $$. Let's face it, football programs make a great deal of money for universities. It is this very culture of elitism that made some feel above the law and tenets of basic morality.
To only give a slap on the wrist so to speak, does not provide the disincentive to other programs or organizations. Now a 2-5 year suspension of the program, well that will darn sure motivate other organizations to keep their programs in order.
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The penn state problem, other than children being molested on school grounds, also included turning a blind eye towards players on and off campus illegal activities.
Penn State has traditionally had a lot less of that than most schools. Entirely apart from the Sandusky business I think Paterno was starting to lose control and judgment the last few years and players were getting away with more. Even if there had never been a Jerry Sandusky Paterno should have retired more than a decade ago.
As to the question of sanctions, the thing is, the problem at Penn State was NOT just a matter of a few individuals, it was a problem of institutional leadership and culture. The football team was a law unto itself with Paterno as the god-emperor. That is how and why the Sandusky affair played out the way it did. At any sane school the school leadership would have told Paterno what to do, not the other way around, and would have placed protecting the victims above success on the field. It's because of that worship and pursuit of success at any cost that this whole thing happened. THAT is why it is a problem for the whole program and not just the individuals involved - because everything they did, they did to ensure the success of the football team on the field. So in a way, the players DID benefit.
And yes, every other school with a big successful football program is the same way. This would have played out the same way at any of them if the coach had made the same bad decision. That is one reason it has to be punished. Change has to start somewhere and a line has to be drawn for everyone.
Yes, it's a shame for current players to suffer for sins of past leaders but that's how the world works. If the company you work for dumped toxic waste illegally 20 years ago and it's discovered today when it starts making kids sick at a school unknowingly built on top of the dump site, the company will be sued into bankruptcy and everyone who works there will be out of a job even if they had nothing to do with the crime. That's tough but the alternative is letting the company get away with a crime that was committed in order to make profits for the company. The individuals responsible weren't just acting on their own behalf, they were acting on behalf of the company they were in charge of, so the company is responsible. Likewise the leadership at Penn State.
The NCAA has to show that this sort of culture is intolerable and the school has got to show that it is not a football team with a school attached, it is an educational institution that is much more important than any football game and can survive with or without football. One year death penalty at a minimum - two or even four would be better - and the statue must come down. Students currently on scholarship should be allowed to transfer without penalty or stay on scholarship at Penn State without playing. The rest of the athletic department shouldn't be punished apart from the loss of revenue, they have no control over the almighty football team. Needless to say, Spanier, Schultz, and Curley should and probably will go to jail.
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They are not culpable but they are caught in the middle. They are going to the school/business that created/enabled the problem. You might understand that this has been happening for years. I believe I read where as recently as 2008 it was still happening.
That's funny since Sandusky retired in 1999 sure the cover up that was in place since the 90's was still in place but the guys in the middle didnt know that
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The players, and fans for that matter, are not guilty or culpable, but neither can it be said they would be punished per se by closing the program.
The players will have the freedom to transfer and play for another college or continue to attend the university and get an education. They just won't be able to play football for Penn State. In light of the severity of the crimes, denying some kids or fans of their 'football fun' seems paltry.
The punishment for Penn State, and in particular the football program needs to be severe, and one which affects the bottom line $$. Let's face it, football programs make a great deal of money for universities. It is this very culture of elitism that made some feel above the law and tenets of basic morality.
To only give a slap on the wrist so to speak, does not provide the disincentive to other programs or organizations. Now a 2-5 year suspension of the program, well that will darn sure motivate other organizations to keep their programs in order.
And what of all the OTHER sports at Penn State that depend on that revenue from football? are they in the middle aswell? Sanctions yes but not a death penalty. But the NCAA regulatory committee has been a joke since the OSU flare up and this may just be the last straw and since there isn't 4 PSU alum on the board I think they will in fact make a statement with Penn State. I just wont agree with the death penalty, at a school that until recently has had a good record. Yes they completely dropped the ball and yes players can go elsewhere but playing at Leigh or Furman isnt going to get you the education you worked for at Penn State.
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And what of all the OTHER sports at Penn State that depend on that revenue from football? are they in the middle aswell?
The short answer to that is yes, unfortunately.
They'll have to tighten their belts and get back to the basics of what a university is for, providing an education. Maybe administrators and coaches will learn that to keep their institution competitive this sort of inaction is not acceptable.
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The short answer to that is yes, unfortunately.
They'll have to tighten their belts and get back to the basics of what a university is for, providing an education. Maybe administrators and coaches will learn that to keep their institution competitive this sort of inaction is not acceptable.
I think that can be learned without the death penalty. Im not totally blind to others opinions ut I think there was soem blanket statemnt put forth earlier as this thread went on the post because more focused on the sstance taken. I dont want Penn ST to get the death penalty but I would accept it and I accept the posts by Shuff, Loki and you. I just wanted to know the reasons for the opinions.
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Lets just burn Penn State to the ground and be done with it just to be sure somebody that might have been indirectly complicit as an enabler does not go unpunished. The innocents will just have to tighten their belts! Grab ye pitchforks!
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Yes punishment is required, jail time for individuals involved, not sanctions on the school.
Unfortunatley, every USC fan would strongley object to that opinion and your belief that there should be more than one standard. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
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Unfortunatley, every USC fan would strongley object to that opinion and your belief that there should be more than one standard. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
How many times do I have to say those circumstances are of an entirely different scope. You cannot compare the two.
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How many times do I have to say those circumstances are of an entirely different scope. You cannot compare the two.
Sukov you are correct. This is hundreds of times worse then selling gold pants for tatoos or paying someones' parents rent.
If I recall there is an Ethics section in the NCAAs' by-laws. If this wasn't unethical, I don't know what would be.
I applaud all of you for discussing this intelligently without name calling etc. Thank You
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That's funny since Sandusky retired in 1999 sure the cover up that was in place since the 90's was still in place but the guys in the middle didnt know that
Yes he retired but still had the keys to the locker rooms and such and brought kids on campus regularly.
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Students in Pennsylvania state-affiliated schools like PSU are already dealing with tuition hikes thanks to state budget cuts... I would know.
Granted I don't know how the funds are allocated, but completely cutting a revenue generating enterprise like the Penn State football team can't be good for the wallets of the student body who're already looking at around $120k for an undergrad degree.
There's absolutely no point in punishing the 99.99999% of Penn State who had absolutely nothing to do with the Sandusky scandal, didn't know about it, and didn't even have any way of interfering with it.
Do whatever is deemed necessary with anyone involved, but... I mean, there needs to be some common sense applied. The whole university can't be implicated.
Penn State main campus has almost 40,000 undergraduate students and thousands more graduate students on campus. Penn State branch campuses around the state serve tens of thousands more. Many of my friends are among them.
The Penn State Hershey Medical Center in serves both as a pretty large med school system and important facility for specialized treatment here in the mid-state region and the Harrisburg metropolitan area especially.
This is all stuff that really can't be undermined due to the actions of a few individuals and the equally destructive mob mentality that their actions have caused.
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Students in Pennsylvania state-affiliated schools like PSU are already dealing with tuition hikes thanks to state budget cuts... I would know.
Granted I don't know how the funds are allocated, but completely cutting a revenue generating enterprise like the Penn State football team can't be good for the wallets of the student body who're already looking at around $120k for an undergrad degree.
There's absolutely no point in punishing the 99.99999% of Penn State who had absolutely nothing to do with the Sandusky scandal, didn't know about it, and didn't even have any way of interfering with it.
Do whatever is deemed necessary with anyone involved, but... I mean, there needs to be some common sense applied. The whole university can't be implicated.
Penn State main campus has almost 40,000 undergraduate students and thousands more graduate students on campus. Penn State branch campuses around the state serve tens of thousands more. Many of my friends are among them.
The Penn State Hershey Medical Center in serves both as a pretty large med school system and important facility for specialized treatment here in the mid-state region and the Harrisburg metropolitan area especially.
This is all stuff that really can't be undermined due to the actions of a few individuals and the equally destructive mob mentality that their actions have caused.
There are many other great schools.
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There are many other great schools.
PSU main campus is easily among the top schools in Pennsylvania, even the best (with the exception of the University of Pennsylvania), depending on the ranking. It's actually one of the better/best schools in the world. Nothing in the state university system even compares, and among the other state related schools you have Lincoln (which really again doesn't compare), Temple and the University of Pittsburgh. Tuition at Temple main is about $10,000 more a year, it's a much lower... ranked... school and it's in the ghetto in Philadelphia. Pitt is a great school but again it's in Pittsburgh, while PSU is in a completely different environment all together, although they cost around the same and are ranked similarly generally.
None of the other state-related schools have anything close to the large system of branch campuses that PSU has, which is a lot of what makes it such an important institution in Pennsylvania (many of my friends are attending Penn State Harrisburg which is a very good school with great engineering programs), and there are no other medical schools or university hospitals here in the Harrisburg/mid-state area beside Penn State Hershey.
If you removed Penn State from the equation of higher education in PA... well, you just can't. It would be catastrophic.
PSU is much bigger than Sandusky, JoePa or its football program, and, while this may be tough to swallow for people who depend on impulse and emotion to make decisions about things, its health and ability to serve tens on tens of thousands of people is leaps and bounds more important than getting petty revenge for the emotional health of 48 people.
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PSU main campus is easily among the top schools in Pennsylvania, even the best (with the exception of the University of Pennsylvania), depending on the ranking. It's actually one of the better/best schools in the world. Nothing in the state university system even compares, and among the other state related schools you have Lincoln (which really again doesn't compare), Temple and the University of Pittsburgh. Tuition at Temple main is about $10,000 more a year, it's a much lower... ranked... school and it's in the ghetto in Philadelphia. Pitt is a great school but again it's in Pittsburgh, while PSU is in a completely different environment all together, although they cost around the same and are ranked similarly generally.
None of the other state-related schools have anything close to the large system of branch campuses that PSU has, which is a lot of what makes it such an important institution in Pennsylvania (many of my friends are attending Penn State Harrisburg which is a very good school with great engineering programs), and there are no other medical schools or university hospitals here in the Harrisburg/mid-state area beside Penn State Hershey.
If you removed Penn State from the equation of higher education in PA... well, you just can't. It would be catastrophic.
You do not have to limit yourself to schools in Pennsylvania.
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You do not have to limit yourself to schools in Pennsylvania.
Plenty of people do have to do just that. There are fewer and fewer people all the time who can afford to go to a private out of state university, or a public out of state university which ends up being just as expensive, if not more so. Many people are bound to their locale and can't afford room and board to move out. Not everyone is sitting on piles of money.
There's definitely no way I could have gone to an out-of-state school, I can barely afford to go to Pitt.
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Plenty of people do have to do just that. There are fewer and fewer people all the time who can afford to go to a private out of state university, or a public out of state university which ends up being just as expensive, if not more so. Many people are bound to their locale and can't afford room and board to move out. Not everyone is sitting on piles of money.
There's definitely no way I could have gone to an out-of-state school, I can barely afford to go to Pitt.
Those folks are caught in the middle. It happens. The school should suffer for it's huge failure in this regard.
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Those folks are caught in the middle. It happens. The school should suffer for it's huge failure in this regard.
"Those folks" are a large (and always widening) portion of all high school graduates in Pennsylvania, and eh can't be punished for the actions of a few high-level people at PSU. Those people at PSU who are responsible need to be punished.
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"Those folks" are a large (and always widening) portion of all high school graduates in Pennsylvania, and eh can't be punished for the actions of a few high-level people at PSU. Those people at PSU who are responsible need to be punished.
Yes it's a real shame the school failed them. I understand what your saying but as stated in comparisons earlier in this thread. They are as much victims as the children this school failed to protect.
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How many times do I have to say those circumstances are of an entirely different scope. You cannot compare the two.
Ahhh, alrighty, so it's OK for everyone else to break/missinterpret/bend a rule then.
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You do not have to limit yourself to schools in Pennsylvania.
Your right, but some of us are dam proud to be graduates of PSU
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Your right, but some of us are dam proud to be graduates of PSU
As you should be. It's a fine learning institution. Unfortunately some forgot the real purpose of PSU.
This is a case of the tail wagging the Dog. They say money corrupts. All football programs are the
big money makers for most Div. 1 Universities. In this case it surely set up a conflict of interest.
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So quick show of hands, who here besides me has read the Freeh report?
The conclusions reached by Freeh in his report don't match the evidence. All the "Evidence" of a cover up stems from one sentence in one email that is taken out of context and blatantly misinterpreted 5 times over the entirety of the Freeh Report.
This sentence basically is, "If we hand off the problem to The Second Mile, and they don't do anything with it, WE will be blamed afterwards."
So they hand off the problem to the Second Mile, the Second Mile does nothing with it. And then, surprise surprise, they get blamed at the end.
This is evidence of a bunch of idiots. They learned the hard way that big problems need to be handled yourself. Paterno even admitted as much.
This is not evidence of a cover up.
But now we have a rabble of retards screaming for the legacy of Joe Paterno to be torn down all because they haven't taken an hour to read the report themselves. They have read the summary of the summary of the conclusion in a passing article and think that sufficient to voice an opinion.
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Ahhh, alrighty, so it's OK for everyone else to break/missinterpret/bend a rule then.
I think this is a legal issue not a NCAA issue.
So ok alrighty...
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So quick show of hands, who here besides me has read the Freeh report?
The conclusions reached by Freeh in his report don't match the evidence. All the "Evidence" of a cover up stems from one sentence in one email that is taken out of context and blatantly misinterpreted 5 times over the entirety of the Freeh Report.
This sentence basically is, "If we hand off the problem to The Second Mile, and they don't do anything with it, WE will be blamed afterwards."
So they hand off the problem to the Second Mile, the Second Mile does nothing with it. And then, surprise surprise, they get blamed at the end.
This is evidence of a bunch of idiots. They learned the hard way that big problems need to be handled yourself. Paterno even admitted as much.
This is not evidence of a cover up.
But now we have a rabble of retards screaming for the legacy of Joe Paterno to be torn down all because they haven't taken an hour to read the report themselves. They have read the summary of the summary of the conclusion in a passing article and think that sufficient to voice an opinion.
"Mr. Paterno said that “I didn’t know exactly how to handle it and I was afraid to do something that might jeopardize what the university procedure was."
That's a quote from good ole Joe, he held the university (specifically the football program) in higher regard than a childs well being. The only thing I find more repulsive than that is someone who defends it....
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So Joe Paterno admitting he didn't know what to do is tantamount to not caring about the kids? What absurd leap of logic did you have to take to get there?
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So Joe Paterno admitting he didn't know what to do is tantamount to not caring about the kids? What absurd leap of logic did you have to take to get there?
If you have any doubt as to what to do when you realize that someone is molesting kids, then you are the biggest diddlying handsomehunk known to mankind. You call the police.
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double post
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So Joe Paterno admitting he didn't know what to do is tantamount to not caring about the kids? What absurd leap of logic did you have to take to get there?
I never said he didn't care about them, he just cared more about football. I see you can relate to that...
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If you have any doubt as to what to do when you realize that someone is molesting kids, then you are the biggest uplifting handsomehunk known to mankind. You call the police.
But he didn't know that someone was molesting kids. He heard a watered down report from someone who waited to tell him. Someone who had to ask his Dad what HE should do.
One of the huge problems with the Freeh Report is that Freeh didn't bother to talk to Paterno, Spanier, Curley, Schultz or McQueary AT ALL. They all offered to speak to him and cooperate with the investigation, yet somehow Freeh didn't think it important to hear from the 5 people that were directly involved.
I never said he didn't care about them, he just cared more about football. I see you can relate to that...
Prove it. Give some evidence that he cared more about Football than the welfare of the kids.
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If you have any doubt as to what to do when you realize that someone is molesting kids, then you are the biggest uplifting handsomehunk known to mankind. You call the police.
I couldn't agree more.
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The only innocent are the 10 year olds dragged into a shower by a 40 year old, who was allowed to hang around.
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But he didn't know that someone was molesting kids. He heard a watered down report from someone who waited to tell him. Someone who had to ask his Dad what HE should do.
One of the huge problems with the Freeh Report is that Freeh didn't bother to talk to Paterno, Spanier, Curley, Schultz or McQueary AT ALL. They all offered to speak to him and cooperate with the investigation, yet somehow Freeh didn't think it important to hear from the 5 people that were directly involved.
Prove it. Give some evidence that he cared more about Football than the welfare of the kids.
"Mr. Paterno said that “I didn’t know exactly how to handle it and I was afraid to do something that might jeopardize what the university procedure was."
I made it bigger so you could read easier.
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PSU doesn't need to worry about the lose of income from football, the civil suits are going to be crippling.
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If you have any doubt as to what to do when you realize that someone is molesting kids, then you are the biggest uplifting handsomehunk known to mankind. You call the police.
Tupac is 100% correct, that is what you would do if the kids were more important....
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"Mr. Paterno said that “I didn’t know exactly how to handle it and I was afraid to do something that might jeopardize what the university procedure was."
I made it bigger so you could read easier.
Making it bigger especially after I've already addressed it just proves that you don't have a shred of evidence to back your claim.
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Making it bigger especially after I've already addressed it just proves that you don't have a shred of evidence to back your claim.
The quote proves he knew exactly what was going on.
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See Rule #4
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Ladies we have derailed.
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Ladies we have derailed.
You're right.
Back on track, I believe the school should be sanctioned very severely. So much so that no others would dream of not immediately bringing a crime this horrible to the attention of the police.
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You're right.
Back on track, I believe the school should be sanctioned very severely. So much so that no others would dream of not immediately bringing a crime this horrible to the attention of the police.
Hey USC got sanctioned severely for years while I was going to school, and they simply lied a few times about reggie bush woah....BAD crime here! Penn State however, I'd forget ever having a football program again honestly if it came down to an honest punishment.
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My humble opinion.
10 year death penalty for NCAA sports at Penn State and mandatory 20 million per victim. All officials and staff that knew and did not report the crimes need to be tried in a court of law. That would ensure that any school official thinking of not going to law enforcement in the future over a crime like this would makes sure they did the right thing.
The bottom line here is that many children were failed. Failed by Penn State as a University, Penn State officials as responsible authority figures, and all who knew but remained silent as human beings. For shame on all of you.
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I don't think the football team should get the death penalty. It does need some scholarship pulled, and maybe a bowel eligible pulled. The lawsuits are going to crush this school.
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I am not so sure Rash. The football program's image is probably the biggest reason the rape was not reported.
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See Rule #4
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I can understand that quote. He worked for the university, he didn't want to jeopardize the universities procedure. As much a figure as Paterno was, he was still a pawn in this particular game. Lets not forget the bigger parties at play, bigger than Paterno who had a District Attorney killed over this. This goes deeper than one old man and not calling the police which I'm not convinced a rational adult would do based on the watery thin accusation he received from the coaching equivalent of a squeaker.
If someone I barely knew came to me and said sheepishly he saw my coworker in the shower with a boy without any hard evidence and without seeing it for myself my first phone call sure as hell isn't going to be the police. You don't exactly bounce back from an accusation like that especially in today's hair triggered litigious world and I'd be damn hard pressed to make it without a high level of confidence the information I have is credible.
Hell the world we live in today sucks in that regard. Last Halloween I was helping my folks with their hayride and bonfire they've done for 22 years or something to that effect. Over the course of my growing up and moving away plenty of neighbors have come and gone and the people don't know me as well as they once did if at all in some cases. Well I was inside organizing my nieces candy at the kitchen table when a boy walks in, somewhere around 7 years old, and asked where the bathroom was. Unfortunately there was a line of kids at all 3 bathrooms most of whom had to #2 and he just needed to #1. No problem, we'll get you a tree. We walked out to the barn and I pointed him at the fenceline. I stood back in the light at the front of the barn so not only couldn't I see him but others could see me. He comes back around and asks if I can help him take his pants off because they're stuck...
Uh oh. :headscratch: Now when I was a kid this wouldn't be an issue. Someone would help me out, they wouldn't be a pedophile and if someone saw what was going on they wouldn't call the police because "that's what you do" when someone is molesting a child. Well...I wouldn't be molesting a child but it might look like it to some busybody stick-your-nose-in-everyone-elses-business pain in the rear individual. All these thoughts ran through my head and I had to tell this poor kid, who really had to pee that I couldn't help him. I passed him off to my brothers girlfriend who was headed into the house and told her to help him out.
The kid I'd never met, I'd never met his holder brother, I'd never met his his parents and for a double extra special twist they're the first black family to build a house on our road so I'd have all sorts of hell unleashed on me for helping him out if someone just happened by. Do you think this 7 year old boys older brother is going to take kindly to an adult unbuttoning his younger brothers costume? Good luck to me defending my "intent" on that one. Yeah...
What really sucked is the kid came out of the house with my brothers girlfriend all excited to cook a hot dog on the fire. I had already gone out to get one on a stick for him and just before he got to the fire his holder brother grabbed him by the hand and said "we're going" because his folks said to be back by whatever time it was. Ugh...poor kid. I couldn't help him and he didn't get a hot dog. I told (and laughed) about what happened with my folks afterward but at the same time it's just sad. It's sad that because of amazinhunks like Sandusky and all the dickheads on the Predator TV shows I couldn't help out some poor kid that couldn't unbutton his trousers.
I get how serious these accusations can be. That's pulling the pin and throwing a hand grenade...there's no coming back. I understand not picking up the phone when you don't have any first hand knowledge.
McQueary failed these kids. He's the one who saw what was going on. He's the one who wavered. He's the one who needed motivating to tell anyone. He's the one who told someone who isn't truly in a position to call in the authorities because he didn't see what happened. And worst of all he's the one who gained from all this.
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My humble opinion.
10 year death penalty for NCAA sports at Penn State and mandatory 20 million per victim. All officials and staff that knew and did not report the crimes need to be tried in a court of law. That would ensure that any school official thinking of not going to law enforcement in the future over a crime like this would makes sure they did the right thing.
The bottom line here is that many children were failed. Failed by Penn State as a University, Penn State officials as responsible authority figures, and all who knew but remained silent as human beings. For shame on all of you.
Why not just punish those involved to the fullest extent of the law and make an example out of them? Why punish an entire institution, town, and state as a whole that is already ailing over the tragedy? If you want the town and university to heal, the worst thing you can do is make an entire culture walk around with a scarlet letter.
The thing about it is, if the same group of coaches and officials were working at ANY university with a cash cow football program, this same thing would have happened. It's not really a Penn State issue, it's a people issue. These are the same snynapses that get people screaming to ban guns everytime some guy shoots somebody.
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Tuition at Temple main is about $10,000 more a year, it's a much lower... ranked... school and it's in the ghetto in Philadelphia.
Well, not exactly... You had better take a walk through West Philly before you stand by that statement :P
On another note, performing a witch hunt on an entire institution for the actions of some of it's members is not going to solve anything, either.
Simply "because it was done at other schools" is not a valid argument by any stretch of the imagination. If things like this are still going on, it obviously did not work.
Quashing the entire football program is certainly NOT going to help the victims deal with the emotional stress of what they endured and have to bear the burden of, for the remainder of their lives, and neither will any amount of money.
All of this focus and discussion about how punishment should be doled out, as opposed to, how the victims can be helped is truly astounding.
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Why not just punish those involved to the fullest extent of the law and make an example out of them? Why punish an entire institution, town, and state as a whole that is already ailing over the tragedy? If you want the town and university to heal, the worst thing you can do is make an entire culture walk around with a scarlet letter.
The thing about it is, if the same group of coaches and officials were working at ANY university with a cash cow football program, this same thing would have happened. It's not really a Penn State issue, it's a people issue. These are the same snynapses that get people screaming to ban guns everytime some guy shoots somebody.
What is a punishment designed to do? It is designed to penalize those that break a law or cause irreparable harm. It is also designed as a deterrence to show others what will happen if they should decide to break that law or follow that behavior. That alone should answer the question of why there needs to be a severe punishment.
Those involved (there are more than just a couple) mostly held key positions within the University. They showed that they were more concerned about the school and image than they were with protecting the real victims here. As such, that is a collegiate sports university culture issue that needs to be addressed. That very culture placed money before protecting innocent children from being raped by a monster. It is likely that there are plenty of unnamed people that are just as culpable.
In the end, this is not just about punishing those that committed a grievous series of wrongs, it is about sending a message that says this type of behavior will not be tolerated.
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I can agree with that. ^
If you care about the program, do right.
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In the end, this is not just about punishing those that committed a grievous series of wrongs, it is about sending a message that says this type of behavior will not be tolerated.
snip
This
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Maybe the program should be spared as long as the offenders are prosecuted, all of them! And every reminder of "Joe Pa" and his little pack are wiped from Penn States history. I read the other day that part of Joe Pa's retirement package is a corp suite on the 50yrd line for his family for 20 years. This was part of the huge retirement settlement they gave him, when they knew he was going to croak, to keep him quiet. Including millions of $$ and a lot of other bennies. http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8166042/report-joe-paterno-had-negotiated-exit-
And these are supposed "Adults".
(http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Rich46yo/PaternoVigil_t607.jpg)
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I think this is a legal issue not a NCAA issue.
So ok alrighty...
NCAA has rules regarding breaking the law.
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What is a punishment designed to do? It is designed to penalize those that break a law or cause irreparable harm. It is also designed as a deterrence to show others what will happen if they should decide to break that law or follow that behavior. That alone should answer the question of why there needs to be a severe punishment.
Those involved (there are more than just a couple) mostly held key positions within the University. They showed that they were more concerned about the school and image than they were with protecting the real victims here. As such, that is a collegiate sports university culture issue that needs to be addressed. That very culture placed money before protecting innocent children from being raped by a monster. It is likely that there are plenty of unnamed people that are just as culpable.
In the end, this is not just about punishing those that committed a grievous series of wrongs, it is about sending a message that says this type of behavior will not be tolerated.
The only ones who will suffer these penalties are people who had nothing to do with the crimes. The people who made the most grievous errors are either dead retired or on their way to prison.
Nothing can be gained from NCAA sanctions. Nothing. People who commit those type of crimes against children will continue to commit them because they do not care about others. We also dont punish or at least should not punish on a "likely."
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So Joe Paterno admitting he didn't know what to do is tantamount to not caring about the kids?
Any knowledgeable individual would immediately go to the police. Unfortunately he was more concerned about what psu would look like.
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What is a punishment designed to do? It is designed to penalize those that break a law or cause irreparable harm. It is also designed as a deterrence to show others what will happen if they should decide to break that law or follow that behavior. That alone should answer the question of why there needs to be a severe punishment.
So punish those involved to the fullest extent of the law.
Those involved (there are more than just a couple) mostly held key positions within the University. They showed that they were more concerned about the school and image than they were with protecting the real victims here. As such, that is a collegiate sports university culture issue that needs to be addressed. That very culture placed money before protecting innocent children from being raped by a monster. It is likely that there are plenty of unnamed people that are just as culpable.
I agree, but how has this entire dibocal not sent a message to the entire collegiate community already? If this happened again tomorrow, you really think officials/coaches of another university would sit on it to protect the University? The message has already been sent. There's no reason to figuratively burn Penn State to the ground. Just finish punishing every involved to the fullest extent of the law, help the victims as much as possible with football money, and start the healing process. You do realize the 10 year sports ban on the University would kill that town right? Do you grasp how much money and how many businesses will shut down as result?
In the end, this is not just about punishing those that committed a grievous series of wrongs, it is about sending a message that says this type of behavior will not be tolerated.
Message has already been sent. This is about punishing those that committed serious crimes, and it is about helping the victims.
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Any knowledgeable individual would immediately go to the police. Unfortunately he was more concerned about what psu would look like.
Again, show some damned evidence that that is true. Not one person, Freeh included, has offered any evidence that says Paterno and the administrators were more concerned about PSU's reputation than the welfare of the children.
You say that any knowledgeable individual would immediately go to the police. But that's not what happened. McQueary who witnessed the act didn't go to the police. Hell, he didn't even go directly to Joe Paterno. He called his Father and asked what to do. His father said to go to Paterno.
Like I've repeated many times, Paterno himself didn't know what to do. He decided to relay the little information that he was given (and McQueary admitted IN COURT to not telling Paterno everything) after the weekend was done. But half way through the weekend Paterno decided that was wrong, and relayed the information up the chain immediately.
It's easy to say what should have been done when hindsight is 20/20 and YOU were not involved in any way, shape or form. And it's especially easy to espouse the ramblings of a large crowd of people who haven't read one paragraph of the Freeh Report, yet are coming to judgement against the men involved.
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Maybe the program should be spared as long as the offenders are prosecuted, all of them! And every reminder of "Joe Pa" and his little pack are wiped from Penn States history. I read the other day that part of Joe Pa's retirement package is a corp suite on the 50yrd line for his family for 20 years. This was part of the huge retirement settlement they gave him, when they knew he was going to croak, to keep him quiet. Including millions of $$ and a lot of other bennies. http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8166042/report-joe-paterno-had-negotiated-exit-
And these are supposed "Adults".
(http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Rich46yo/PaternoVigil_t607.jpg)
They look more like college kids to me...
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Jump to conclusion mats all around.
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Jump to conclusion mats all around.
(http://www.yankscallitsoccer.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/JumpToConclusionsMat.png)
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Again, show some damned evidence that that is true. Not one person, Freeh included, has offered any evidence that says Paterno and the administrators were more concerned about PSU's reputation than the welfare of the children.
:huh So what do you think their motivation was? This is all pretty obvious no? Football is Big,Big money to a University. The biggest cash cow they got.
You say that any knowledgeable individual would immediately go to the police. But that's not what happened. McQueary who witnessed the act didn't go to the police. Hell, he didn't even go directly to Joe Paterno. He called his Father and asked what to do. His father said to go to Paterno.
Thats cause he was afraid he was going to get stepped on. An assistant coach or janitor living week to week is usually a little jittery before going up against, arguably, the biggest power base in the State without thinking it over first. The Founding Fathers didnt really mean "All men are created equal" ; They just wrote it in cause it sounded good at the time. Heck, 1/2 of them owned slaves.
Like I've repeated many times, Paterno himself didn't know what to do
Oh, thats precious. Dialing 9-1-1 isnt all that difficult.
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You know I feel like the people crying out for more punishment are burning down the forest to cut down a few trees.
The sad part is there are people who are going to feel the effect who would have done the right thing and if they had known would have went right to the police.
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Again, show some damned evidence that that is true. Not one person, Freeh included, has offered any evidence that says Paterno and the administrators were more concerned about PSU's reputation than the welfare of the children.
You say that any knowledgeable individual would immediately go to the police. But that's not what happened. McQueary who witnessed the act didn't go to the police. Hell, he didn't even go directly to Joe Paterno. He called his Father and asked what to do. His father said to go to Paterno.
Like I've repeated many times, Paterno himself didn't know what to do. He decided to relay the little information that he was given (and McQueary admitted IN COURT to not telling Paterno everything) after the weekend was done. But half way through the weekend Paterno decided that was wrong, and relayed the information up the chain immediately.
It's easy to say what should have been done when hindsight is 20/20 and YOU were not involved in any way, shape or form. And it's especially easy to espouse the ramblings of a large crowd of people who haven't read one paragraph of the Freeh Report, yet are coming to judgement against the men involved.
Go back and read this thread... thoroghly. It has been posted over and over. Turning a blind eye like they did changes nothing.
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Grizz,
I disagree with almost everything that you said with regards to the message sent having been received. It is very obvious that many will not admit the culpability of certain iconic figures in this series of heinous crimes. People that will still defend the behavior of iconic individuals and systems have not learned a lesson. The only way to attempt to fix that is an extremely sever punishment. If you feel the 10 years I suggested is too much for a punishment, how about the punishment reflect the time frame that the crimes were hushed up? Would that be fair?
Further, as for killing the town owing to a sports program being shut down, I disagree. The university will adjust, the money spent on NCAA sports can be spent on intramural and education related activities and the things will proceed forward. The town will feel a ten year absence of sports, but in the end, it will survive, especially when you consider that the student numbers will remain.
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Grizz,
I disagree with almost everything that you said with regards to the message sent having been received. It is very obvious that many will not admit the culpability of certain iconic figures in this series of heinous crimes. People that will still defend the behavior of iconic individuals and systems have not learned a lesson. The only way to attempt to fix that is an extremely sever punishment. If you feel the 10 years I suggested is too much for a punishment, how about the punishment reflect the time frame that the crimes were hushed up? Would that be fair?
Further, as for killing the town owing to a sports program being shut down, I disagree. The university will adjust, the money spent on NCAA sports can be spent on intramural and education related activities and the things will proceed forward. The town will feel a ten year absence of sports, but in the end, it will survive, especially when you consider that the student numbers will remain.
In 2003, PSU was credited with having the second-largest impact on the state economy of any organization, generating an economic effect of over $17 billion on a budget of $2.5 billion, a significant amount of which comes from collegiate sports (just use the word football there)
Yet shutting down the football program for 10 years will not make an economic impact? What kind of mathematics are you using to come to this conclusion?
What part of the lack of funds generated by the influx of football fans will not sink part of the local economy? I am sure that there is more than one business that gets most of it's yearly gross during the football season, just like many shore locations do from their summer season.
A 10 year shutdown affects way more folks than the school, the students, or the alumni...
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Grizz,
I disagree with almost everything that you said with regards to the message sent having been received. It is very obvious that many will not admit the culpability of certain iconic figures in this series of heinous crimes.
Like who? Since the latest report, there aren't many people defending anyone involved, including Joe Pa.
The only way to attempt to fix that is an extremely sever punishment.
I agree.
If you feel the 10 years I suggested is too much for a punishment, how about the punishment reflect the time frame that the crimes were hushed up? Would that be fair?
Oh you still want to punish the entire University, nevermind I still disagree. And no that would not be fair, in fact it would be comparable to a Code of Hummurabi punishment which is archiaic, and unevolved. What would be fair is to serverly punish the people involved and let the University heal from the pain that a select few number of individuals have created. Lets not forget who the monster is in all of this.
The university will adjust, the money spent on NCAA sports can be spent on intramural and education related activities and the things will proceed forward.
:rofl
You do realize that the money "spent" on NCAA sports all comes from the football revenues right?
But in the end, it will survive, especially when you consider that the student numbers will remain.
There would be less demand to go to Penn State as result of your sanctions.
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Further, as for killing the town owing to a sports program being shut down, I disagree. The university will adjust, the money spent on NCAA sports can be spent on intramural and education related activities and the things will proceed forward. The town will feel a ten year absence of sports, but in the end, it will survive, especially when you consider that the student numbers will remain.
The Penn State football program made a profit of $53 million in 2011. From what I could tell that money goes to the athletic department which funds a number of varsity sports (volleyball, lacrosse, swimming, track) which are revenue negative. In other words they don't bring in the revenue that it costs to run the program, and depend on football revenues.
The town I imagine also has a number of businesses that are co-dependent (at least in part) with the football program. Restaurants on home games, hotels, taxi cab drivers are a few I can think of.
I imagine that a death sentence for the football program will have some adverse affect on those businesses, probably not catastrophic but they'll feel it. The varsity sports program and inter-mural sports will suffer greatly, likely requiring massive cutbacks and program closures. Not to mention the lost scholarships for those student-athletes in affected programs, (if the school will not continue to honor them, which they should)
Too bad. The punishment on the institution has to be severe enough to provide disincentive.
Maybe some of those administrators will be willing to take partial paycuts to help fund some athletic programs (doubt it). Maybe some of those programs can hold a few fund raising car washes or seek more alumni donors if they really want to play.
As far as I'm concerned the real reason for a university is for academics and getting an education. The sports programs are a secondary consideration.
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The Penn State football program made a profit of $53 million in 2011. From what I could tell that money goes to the athletic department which funds a number of varsity sports (volleyball, lacrosse, swimming, track) which are revenue negative. In other words they don't bring in the revenue that it costs to run the program, and depend on football revenues.
The town I imagine also has a number of businesses that are co-dependent (at least in part) with the football program. Restaurants on home games, hotels, taxi cab drivers are a few I can think of.
I imagine that a death sentence for the football program will have some adverse affect on those businesses, probably not catastrophic but they'll feel it. The varsity sports program and inter-mural sports will suffer greatly, likely requiring massive cutbacks and program closures. Not to mention the lost scholarships for those student-athletes in affected programs, (if the school will not continue to honor them, which they should)
Too bad. The punishment on the institution has to be severe enough to provide disincentive.
Maybe some of those administrators will be willing to take partial paycuts to help fund some athletic programs (doubt it). Maybe some of those programs can hold a few fund raising car washes or seek more alumni donors if they really want to play.
As far as I'm concerned the real reason for a university is for academics and getting an education. The sports programs are a secondary consideration.
What are you providing a disincentive for?
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State College isn't just some little town, it's the 12th largest city in Pennsylvania and the State College metropolitan area has a population of 153,990 people; the only reason for it to exist is because of PSU's main campus there. It was all farm land before the university was founded.
As said before, PSU has a huge impact on our state and you can't start chopping away at it just to get some revenge. Punish those responsible.
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What are you providing a disincentive for?
Disincentive for other cash cow football programs in fostering a culture of elitism that could allow turning a blind eye to the abuse of helpless child victims.
Disincentive for Penn State not to have instituted an airtight policy in dealing with these egregious transgressions.
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State College isn't just some little town, it's the 12th largest city in Pennsylvania and the State College metropolitan area has a population of 153,990 people; the only reason for it to exist is because of PSU's main campus there. It was all farm land before the university was founded.
As said before, PSU has a huge impact on our state and you can't start chopping away at it just to get some revenge. Punish those responsible.
PSU can survive without all the 'football fun' for a while. The vast majority of the economy is because of students going to PSU for an education, not because of football.
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The vast majority of the economy is because of students going to PSU for an education, not because of football.
Not really...but okay.
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Not really...but okay.
You beat me to it on that one.
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Not really...but okay.
Well clearly PSU is the main staple of the local economy, not the football program. There are 44,000 students, 8,800 faculty and staff, all living and purchasing, paying taxes, etc.
Football is what, couple of home games a year. What does the city do during the other 9 months when football is out of season. Granted the football program is part of the local economy, but not the mainstay.
I know there are al ot of fans that REALLY REALLY want the football fun to continue, but the institution needs to be taught a lesson and made an example of.
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Well clearly PSU is the main staple of the local economy, not the football program. There are 44,000 students, 8,800 faculty and staff, all living and purchasing, paying taxes, etc.
Football is what, couple of home games a year. What does the city do during the other 9 months when football is out of season. Granted the football program is part of the local economy, but not the mainstay.
I know there are al ot of fans that REALLY REALLY want the football fun to continue, but the institution needs to be taught a lesson and made an example of.
The institution didn't do anything. There were individuals within the institution that need to be punished and made an example of for sure, however.
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Well clearly PSU is the main staple of the local economy, not the football program. There are 44,000 students, 8,800 faculty and staff, all living and purchasing, paying taxes, etc.
Football is what, couple of home games a year. What does the city do during the other 9 months when football is out of season. Granted the football program is part of the local economy, but not the mainstay.
I know there are al ot of fans that REALLY REALLY want the football fun to continue, but the institution needs to be taught a lesson and made an example of.
Well, there are actually 7 home games, if I am correct.
Each one drawing about 3 times the amount of the total population into town, effectively tripling the amount of revenue generated, not to mention the merchandise, etc sold throughout the year...
As it has been stated, State College was all farmland until PSU came along.
Hamstringing the entire community is not teaching the correct people the correct lesson.
Throwing out the baby with the bath water comes to mind, here.
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Grizz,
You are being obtuse if you can not see the overwhelming support for an iconic football figure that played a major role in this travesty. The University Board of Regents still plans to honor his changed contract (which they could fight based upon revelations) even though it is shown he knew and did not follow through on what should have been done. The University shares responsibility for these crimes equally. As for punishment, the University, yes, the University, failed those children and as such, the University should be punished. Removal of all NCAA sports for a substantial period of time is a fair and just response. Regardless of whether you want to argue that people will suffer, it does not change the fact that the crimes committed warrant the punishment.
As for the comment regarding Hammurabi's Law, this is no where close to eye for an eye and as such it is not relevant, so why add it? Oh wait, you were shooting for shock value... :rolleyes:
Money spent on sports.... I am well aware that the football program brought in a substantial sum of money and that money helped fund other programs. The University also spends significant money to fund sports as well. But, since those programs should be shut down, that money can be used to fund other things, like a victim's assistance fund or education programs to prevent the abuse. 10 years is a long time, and long enough to ensure that people will not forget.
As for demand to go to Penn State.... people will always go, and they will meet their max as usual and as many have pointed out those 44,000 students (not including faculty, staff, and associated personnel) will continue to thrive. Sports related businesses will probably suffer, but that is an unfortunate side effect from criminal actions, not the penalty.
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The institution didn't do anything.
Yeah well that's the understatement of the year, but I know what you mean by that sarcasm aside.
Well, there are actually 7 home games, if I am correct.
Each one drawing about 3 times the amount of the total population into town, effectively tripling the amount of revenue generated, not to mention the merchandise, etc sold throughout the year...
As it has been stated, State College was all farmland until PSU came along.
Hamstringing the entire community is not teaching the correct people the correct lesson.
Throwing out the baby with the bath water comes to mind, here.
I don't doubt the football games help the local economy, hotel rooms, taxi's, restaurants, etc during the 7 home games. It isn't the mainstay of the economy though, which is real estate and services for the 52,000 students and staff that are there for an education or teaching/research. I imagine the majority of Beaver stadium is filled by locals during the game though, with maybe 10=20% of the seats (10,000-20,000) being true out of towners bringing in outside revenue.
Yes it was all farmland until PSU came along (in 1855), but again the reason for it's existence was and is education, not football.
Penn State is culpable in the sense that they did not have policies in place that would have prevented, or rather, allowed this sort of inaction on the part of administrators and coaches.
Face it, the football program got so powerful and the university so dependent upon it, that some felt it was more important to preserve it than protect the innocent. Even worse is it wasn't just a one time lapse, but one allowed to fester creating even more victims.
As far as I'm concerned the football program should get a death sentence of a couple of years at least. Let the university get back to the basics of education and earn the privilege of having a football again sometime in the future.
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The institution didn't do anything. There were individuals within the institution that need to be punished and made an example of for sure, however.
The school is a big issue. Not just the individuals here. The whole atmosphere at psu is part of the enabling that went on.
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I imagine the majority of Beaver stadium is filled by locals during the game though, with maybe 10=20% of the seats (10,000-20,000) being true out of towners bringing in outside revenue.
Haha, if you ever have to drive anywhere near the Centre county the day of a Penn State home game, you'll understand how unbelievably wrong you are.
The school is a big issue. Not just the individuals here. The whole atmosphere at psu is part of the enabling that went on.
Direct responsibility falls on the shoulders of a few who have already been, or are in the process of being punished. The 'atmosphere' and importance of football and pride is prevalent at any Division I school, so if you really want to address it and aren't just out for blood then you may as well just shut down the NCAA for a few years.
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:huh So what do you think their motivation was? This is all pretty obvious no? Football is Big,Big money to a University. The biggest cash cow they got.
Thats cause he was afraid he was going to get stepped on. An assistant coach or janitor living week to week is usually a little jittery before going up against, arguably, the biggest power base in the State without thinking it over first. The Founding Fathers didnt really mean "All men are created equal" ; They just wrote it in cause it sounded good at the time. Heck, 1/2 of them owned slaves.
Oh, thats precious. Dialing 9-1-1 isnt all that difficult.
Obvious? What's obvious is that the administrators didn't know how to act. Anything past that is you inserting your irrationality into a situation you weren't involved with.
Dialing 911 isn't hard at all. McQueary should have. But he didn't.
Go back and read this thread... thoroghly. It has been posted over and over. Turning a blind eye like they did changes nothing.
Go back and read the Freeh Report... thoroughly. Oh wait, you haven't read it at all? You are spouting off the inanities of others that ALSO haven't read the Freeh Report themselves?
Haha, if you've ever had to drive anywhere near the Centre county during a Penn State home game, you'd understand how unbelievably wrong you are.
Direct responsibility falls on the shoulders of a few who have already been, or are in the process of being punished. The 'atmosphere' and importance of football and pride is prevalent at any Division I school, so if you really want to address it and aren't just out for blood then you may as well just shut down the NCAA for a few years.
State College becomes the third largest town in all of Pennsylvania on a Home Game Weekend.
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As for the comment regarding Hammurabi's Law, this is no where close to eye for an eye and as such it is not relevant, so why add it? Oh wait, you were shooting for shock value... :rolleyes:
It was perfectly valid, you said "Take away football for number of years that victims were harmed." That's the equivalent to saying Eye for Eye. Hammurabi reference stands, you were born 4000 years too late :)
The University also spends significant money to fund sports as well.
Bro, you are incredibly ignorant if you don't realize every penny that funds sports comes from football revenue, including coaches salaries. There are sports that make money and sports that lose. The only sports that make money are Football, Men's Basketball, and Women's Volleyball (especially at Penn State). I don't know much about Men's Volleyball so that might make money too. The rest of the sports essentially lose money every year and are supported by the revenue from football. Football revenue shares to the rest of the University.
But, since those programs should be shut down, that money can be used to fund other things, like a victim's assistance fund or education programs to prevent the abuse. .
Lol, see above.
The only way to provide victims with sustained financial compensation is from football revenue.
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Haha, if you ever have to drive anywhere near the Centre county the day of a Penn State home game, you'll understand how unbelievably wrong you are.
You don't really know demographics, but I think it is fair to say that the majority of seats are filled by fans from the Pennsylvania region. Either way that's not the point.
The point is that Penn State allowed for this culture of elitism to proliferate unchecked to the point that this sort of thing could happen. For that the institution needs to be punished severely and serve as warning that the 'big football party' doesn't trump the rights of innocent children.
Penn State has a great academics program, engineering, nursing, science, law, medicine. It can survive a bit without the big game on Saturday I think.
Maybe a little reflection wouldn't be such a bad thing. A little period of 'time out' so to speak, 5 years seems fair.
The only way to provide victims with sustained financial compensation is from football revenue.
Baloney. You just want the football season to continue and are using that a rationalization.
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It will continue, NCAA can't and won't do anything.
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It will continue, NCAA can't and won't do anything.
I agree.
You don't really know demographics, but I think it is fair to say that the majority of seats are filled by fans from the Pennsylvania region. Either way that's not the point.
The point is that Penn State allowed for this culture of elitism to proliferate unchecked to the point that this sort of thing could happen. For that the institution needs to be punished severely and serve as warning that the 'big football party' doesn't trump the rights of innocent children.
Penn State has a great academics program, engineering, nursing, science, law, medicine. It can survive a bit without the big game on Saturday I think.
Maybe a little reflection wouldn't be such a bad thing. A little period of 'time out' so to speak, 5 years seems fair.
Baloney. You just want the football season to continue and are using that a rationalization.
Oh no doubt the college will survive either way but it is pointless to punish those not involved.
Culture of elitism is easy to say but what do you mean?
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Like who? Since the latest report, there aren't many people defending anyone involved, including Joe Pa.
Snip
oh really...
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/18/penn-state-students-protect-joe-paterno-statue/
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Snip
oh really...
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/18/penn-state-students-protect-joe-paterno-statue/
Yes really, so what if a few students are still defending. Large and large, he has lost all support.
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It will continue, NCAA can't and won't do anything.
Ohhhhhhh yes it can...........And Penn State is on the hook for a boatload of ethical infractions.
The NCAA boss Mark Emmert was quoted as saying he had "never seen anything as egregious as this in terms of just overall conduct and behavior inside a university...this is systemic a cultural problem as it is a football problem"
I don't know what all that means, but if I were a big Penn State football fan I'd be really, and I mean really, worried for their program.
Heck, they gave SMU the death penalty in the 1980's for benefits violations, took the school nearly 20 years to recover. In this case they covered up child rape!
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Ohhhhhhh yes it can...........And Penn State is on the hook for a boatload of ethical infractions.
The NCAA boss Mark Emmert was quoted as saying he had "never seen anything as egregious as this in terms of just overall conduct and behavior inside a university...this is systemic a cultural problem as it is a football problem"
I don't know what all that means, but if I were a big Penn State football fan I'd be really, and I mean really, worried for their program.
Heck, they gave SMU the death penalty in the 1980's for benefits violations, took the school nearly 20 years to recover. In this case they covered up child rape!
Going to answer the question about what you mean by cultural elitism?
SMU has no bearing here. Much different circumstances. A couple of high level people either covered up or did not report child rape.
Harsh punishment on people not involved in this instance only serves people who feel like they need to quell their outrage.
EDIT and the video you quoted from NCAA "boss" said nearly the same thing in reference to SMU
http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8178854/penn-state-nittany-lions-students-protect-joe-paterno-statue
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It will continue, NCAA can't and won't do anything.
If so the NCAA will lose face since it is an afront to it's own rules.
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It was perfectly valid, you said "Take away football for number of years that victims were harmed." That's the equivalent to saying Eye for Eye. Hammurabi reference stands, you were born 4000 years too late :)
Bro, you are incredibly ignorant if you don't realize every penny that funds sports comes from football revenue, including coaches salaries. There are sports that make money and sports that lose. The only sports that make money are Football, Men's Basketball, and Women's Volleyball (especially at Penn State). I don't know much about Men's Volleyball so that might make money too. The rest of the sports essentially lose money every year and are supported by the revenue from football. Football revenue shares to the rest of the University.
Lol, see above.
The only way to provide victims with sustained financial compensation is from football revenue.
Hamurrabi's Code equates an eye for an eye. If you think that taking away sports based upon the number of years they kept silent equalizes the crime of staying quiet and allowing the rape of children to continue, I feel sorry for you. Further, I only added the years of no sports to years of silence to illustrate for you that my 10 year suspension suggestion was not so over the top to begin with.
You can call me ignorant all you like, but you do realize that more than just football money subsidizes sports at PSU? Obviously, football creates a large revenue stream, but other money is used to support sports above and beyond football.
Here nor there, you seem to believe you know all, so I am done discussing it with you.
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To those advocating that the NCAA can not do anything, I'd suggest you refer to the NCAA Constitution for Division 1 schools under Article 6, Institutional Control, specifically: 6.01.
General Principle
6.01.1 Institutional Control. The control and responsibility for the conduct of intercollegiate athletics shall
be exercised by the institution itself and by the conference(s), if any, of which it is a member. Administrative control
or faculty control, or a combination of the two, shall constitute institutional control.
That more than allows the NCAA to take action. The NCAA "death penalty" has been levied against 5 schools for conduct far less heinous than that displayed at Penn State and for periods of time up to two years for various recruiting violations. These crimes perpetrated by Penn State officials to include leaders are so heinous that recruiting violations pale in comparison.
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I think this conversation is over. It is now obvious to me that no ones opinion is even going to sway including mine.
I hope the NCAA does not sanction the college in any way.
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Going to answer the question about what you mean by cultural elitism?
Seems obvious to me the leaders felt the program was more important than victims in their attempt to keep it quiet.
I recall when the story first broke, 'Joe Pa' said of the investigation, 'the board shouldn't waste one minute of time worrying about me'. Yeah right buddy. By his leave then, giving permission from HIS hight perch that he was beyond investigation or reproach.
SMU has no bearing here. Much different circumstances. A couple of high level people either covered up or did not report child rape.
You can say that again. The SMU debacle involved a pay to play scandal, a relatively victimless crime by the leaders of an athletic program. This situation is the attempted cover up of children being raped, by the leaders of an athletic program.
I hope the NCAA does not sanction the college in any way.
I don't think reasonable people can agree with such a statement. One might say that an NCAA 'death sentence' is too harsh, but to say 'no sanctions in any way' in the face of such appalling lapses of basic ethics by the top leadership of a sports program is misguided.
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I think this conversation is over. It is now obvious to me that no ones opinion is even going to sway including mine.
You're right. 4 times asking for evidence of a cover up or corruption with no evidence given should have been my clue that we weren't dealing with Facts here, but feelings.
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The quote proves he knew exactly what was going on.
You can't fix the brainwashed 'Pac. Just let him live in his fantasy world where PSU is uber God of all universities.
They want evidence, you show them a confession and it's not "evidence". SMH.
I share a country with you people. Golly-geen it turn your brains on.
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You're right. 4 times asking for evidence of a cover up or corruption with no evidence given should have been my clue that we weren't dealing with Facts here, but feelings.
You said you read the report.... simply read it again.
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I don't think reasonable people can agree with such a statement. One might say that an NCAA 'death sentence' is too harsh, but to say 'no sanctions in any way' in the face of such appalling lapses of basic ethics by the top leadership of a sports program is misguided.
I believe myself and others who share my opinion are reasonable.
Do not setup your opinion as the only reasonable opinion it is not. It is a opinion of someone letting their feelings rule their judgment.
A couple of top level people who committed crimes should be punished not the college or football program.
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I believe myself and others who share my opinion are reasonable.
Do not setup your opinion as the only reasonable opinion it is not. It is a opinion of someone letting their feelings rule their judgment.
A couple of top level people who committed crimes should be punished not the college or football program.
Actually it is not feelings ruling their judgement. It is the NCAA rules that are ruling their judgement. But you can have your opinion.
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I believe myself and others who share my opinion are reasonable.
Do not setup your opinion as the only reasonable opinion it is not. It is a opinion of someone letting their feelings rule their judgment.
A couple of top level people who committed crimes should be punished not the college or football program.
Have you ever read the NCAA Constitution? I am guessing not. If you had, you would not consider your opinion reasonable.
As I outlined before, Section 6, specifically 6.0.1 states the University must have control of the athletics. It is obvious from the actions of several high ranking personnel, several coaches, assistants, and a host of other unnamed players that the control they exercised was not lawful or in the best interests of the athletics program. Based upon precedence set for far lesser crimes in the NCAA, where "death penalties" of two years have been handed down; the punishment for these heinous crimes and actions should far exceed a two year death penalty.
Now, to address it reasonably, look at my second paragraph. It takes emotion out of the equation, uses past precedence of NCAA rulings, and shows a reasonable course of action based upon past rulings.
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It is a opinion of someone letting their feelings rule their judgment.
A couple of top level people who committed crimes should be punished not the college or football program.
You're entitled to your opinion, but I'm afraid it does not work like that. Penn State is in serious trouble over this, likely as not the victims will sue the university in civil court for the GROSS negligence of that university's leadership. Those in the leadership position might also be sued individually, even if they are not found to be criminally negligent.
Additionally, the leadership also violated multiple NCAA rules of ethical conduct, for which the NCAA will rightly have to impose punishment. Not just for one violation mind you, but for a systemic failures.
So no, it is not a situation of 'feelings' ruling the judgement, it is both the established rules of the NCAA and also case law of western jurisprudence that will be in play.
You're right. 4 times asking for evidence of a cover up or corruption with no evidence given should have been my clue that we weren't dealing with Facts here, but feelings.
Like shuffler said, go read the report or even the highlights from a credible news source. It's not our job to educate you.
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As I outlined before, Section 6, specifically 6.0.1 states the University must have control of the athletics. It is obvious from the actions of several high ranking personnel, several coaches, assistants, and a host of other unnamed players that the control they exercised was not lawful or in the best interests of the athletics program. Based upon precedence set for far lesser crimes in the NCAA, where "death penalties" of two years have been handed down; the punishment for these heinous crimes and actions should far exceed a two year death penalty.
If it is so obvious maybe you can guarantee there will be a sports ban at Penn State imposed by the NCAA.
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If it is so obvious maybe you can guarantee there will be a sports ban at Penn State imposed by the NCAA.
As I am not on the NCAA disciplinary board, I can not guarantee anything, but from a legal aspect it makes the most sense.
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As I am not on the NCAA disciplinary board, I can not guarantee anything, but from a legal aspect it makes the most sense.
The NCAA has "one or two" lawyers, believe me. We'll see what happens, some legal analysts say the NCAA will impose a death sentence, others say the NCAA can't impose a single sanction.
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Whether the NCAA does something or not. Penn States reputation has been tarnished for many years to come.
And it is a pity. It is a fine school where those in charge forgot what Penn State was there for. To Educate,
not profit from a football program. Other Schools and programs...take note. There but by the grace of God go I.
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The NCAA has "one or two" lawyers, believe me. We'll see what happens, some legal analysts say the NCAA will impose a death sentence, others say the NCAA can't impose a single sanction.
Well aware. The reasonable response from the NCAA has to be harsh, especially considering the precedence of the past. As for people saying that the NCAA can not impose anything.... that is simply shock value to get on TV. They can and will.
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Wait for it...
$60 million fine
No bowl games for 4 years
All wins for PSU from 2008 to 2011 are vacated
NCAA reserving the right to perform investigations to sanction individuals on a per-incident status
NCAA to implement an independent morality monitor for 5 years.
5 years probation in NCAA
Other detailed info available soon (Emmert was speaking really quickly)
A lot of heavy sanctions not to be taken lightly but no "Death Penalty".
Looks like they relied upon the Freeh report for most of their decisions
Can watch live here:
http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/livenow?id=8745127 (http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/livenow?id=8745127)
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This punishment is a joke. Sports above all else!
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As a parent and a PSU Alum, sadly Bodhi, i agree.
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This punishment is a joke. Sports above all else!
I read that as justice is not justice unless it is punishment of YOUR design?
It never ceases to amaze me when folks cry for justice (which is certainly deserved) but then are not happy with the punishment doled out by the proper governing authority because it is not what THEY would have done.
I understand that not everyone will be happy.
Then again, with what transpired, it cannot be expected. Especially for the victims.
I eagerly await the reactions of the victims. I wonder if these penalties (or any others that COULD have been imposed) could ever assuage their suffering.
Is this not what this whole situation is really about?
I wonder if any amount of money awarded to them will make them forget what was done to them?
Will cold-hard cash make their nightmares go away?
Will punishing an entire institution or community for the transgressions of a few despicable individuals make it easier for them to perform simple daily hygiene, such as taking a shower in a locker room if they decide to play organised sports in the future without them having to relive the memory of the abuse that they were forced to endure?
I know that it wouldn't for me. Time is the only salve for these wounds and that only serves to dull the pain, at best...
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VonMessa,
I have only advocated a severe punishment against the athletic program and have stayed out of the civil side. It is obvious that no amount of anything will make the victim's whole again, and I never said anything would.
What disappoints me about this punishment is that it is touted as so harsh, but when looked at in detail it really isn't.
$60 million amounts to one year of revenues, roughly. 1 year fixes that.
No post season for 4 years... boohoo, they lose another 10 million or so IF they make a bowl game, not likely with 20 less scholarships.
Vacating Wins. Wow, that hurts..... what a joke.
Independent morality monitor? Oh wow.
5 years probation with NCAA.
Wow, those are some rough punishments.... hardly. It is my opinion that the NCAA took the road of preserving the football program and a cash cow for State College instead of sending the proper message that this type of behavior will not be tolerated. The sports culture message received is that if this happens in the future, you will get a monetary fine, and no post season for a short time, but the cash cow stays in place. Before you say another thing about this only involving a few people, read the Freeh report and realize that they interviewed close to 400 people for that. Obviously not all are involved, but plenty more than 4 knew something happened and still did not do anything about it.
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Pity that the NCAA no longer has enough clout to actually do much in this case.
PSU got off easy this time.
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Just read up about this :old:
In the UK we dont have these sports schools funded by big business.
Its a shame that so many people were involved who seem to put financial gain before moral right.
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deleted
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A little perspective for the punishment is inorder.
PSU has an endowment of over $1.7 billion USD. They can easily absorb the $60 million fine.
PSU Football was allocated 85 scholarships per year until today which goes down to 65 for 4 years.
You can not take away wins. The games already happened and people have moved on.
No bowl games for 4 years means they lose out on roughly $40 million.
A independent morality monitor for 5 years. Play by the rules, no problems.
5 years probation in the NCAA. Wow, play by the rules and you are fine.
This NCAA punishment is a joke.
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Wait for it...
$60 million fine
No bowl games for 4 years
All wins for PSU from 2008 to 2011 are vacated
NCAA reserving the right to perform investigations to sanction individuals on a per-incident status
NCAA to implement an independent morality monitor for 5 years.
5 years probation in NCAA
Other detailed info available soon (Emmert was speaking really quickly)
A lot of heavy sanctions not to be taken lightly but no "Death Penalty".
Looks like they relied upon the Freeh report for most of their decisions
Can watch live here:
http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/livenow?id=8745127 (http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/livenow?id=8745127)
Predictable/consistent with other recent and controversial drastic NCAA rulings.
Serious now, isn't it? That $60 million will mostly/entirely come out of cancelled/void football schoolarships too, and that is gonna be interesting to watch its impact to PSU.
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A little perspective for the punishment is inorder.
PSU has an endowment of over $1.7 billion USD. They can easily absorb the $60 million fine.
PSU Football was allocated 85 scholarships per year until today which goes down to 65 for 4 years.
You can not take away wins. The games already happened and people have moved on.
No bowl games for 4 years means they lose out on roughly $40 million.
A independent morality monitor for 5 years. Play by the rules, no problems.
5 years probation in the NCAA. Wow, play by the rules and you are fine.
This NCAA punishment is a joke.
They are for all intents and purposes a Division II-A school for at least 4 years. That will sting for a while and hopefully they can get someone with true character Coaching that team. The recruiting will suffer and the vacated wins will have a lasting effect. Right now, they will seem trivial. The University can no longer lay claim to "The School having the Most Division I-A Wins by a Coach" any longer.
Bodhi, I have agreed with all of your posts on the topic in both threads. We're both parents and a couple of folks who were "hoping the NCAA would turn a blind eye", are Single and cannot look at this from a parent standpoint. Because anyone with a Child, can almost connect at some point. Having a Niece or Nephew doesn't cut it.
I hope each person that was involved in the University cover-up rot in Hell and are punished to the fullest extent of the Law, while they are still breathing.
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VonMessa,
I have only advocated a severe punishment against the athletic program and have stayed out of the civil side. It is obvious that no amount of anything will make the victim's whole again, and I never said anything would.
What disappoints me about this punishment is that it is touted as so harsh, but when looked at in detail it really isn't.
$60 million amounts to one year of revenues, roughly. 1 year fixes that.
No post season for 4 years... boohoo, they lose another 10 million or so IF they make a bowl game, not likely with 20 less scholarships.
Vacating Wins. Wow, that hurts..... what a joke.
Independent morality monitor? Oh wow.
5 years probation with NCAA.
Wow, those are some rough punishments.... hardly. It is my opinion that the NCAA took the road of preserving the football program and a cash cow for State College instead of sending the proper message that this type of behavior will not be tolerated. The sports culture message received is that if this happens in the future, you will get a monetary fine, and no post season for a short time, but the cash cow stays in place. Before you say another thing about this only involving a few people, read the Freeh report and realize that they interviewed close to 400 people for that. Obviously not all are involved, but plenty more than 4 knew something happened and still did not do anything about it.
I will agree that they could have been harsher, no doubt. I will have to disagree that a "death penalty" was in order as it would not have hurt or punished the institution of PSU as much as it would have impacted the community of State College, PA.
I equate it to a seashore town where the beaches would need to be closed for one reason or another during peak season. The lions share of revenue is made during the peak season by the local businesses. The seven home games during football season account for the bulk of yearly revenue for a plethora of local businesses. Putting a halt to the entire football program would undoubtedly have a very negative financial impact upon the financial health of the community wherein some businesses would fall flat on their face and those employed by those companies would all suddenly find themselves unemployed. Considering the quite rural location of State college and the lack of places to secure gainful employment within reasonable commuting distance, it would only cause more innocent folks to suffer as not everyone in the community has ties to PSU beyond servicing the student body, tourists and football fans. The effect on PSU as an entity, however, would not be nearly as devastating as they have more than one campus across the state. In essence, lots of folks that had absolutely no involvement in, or knowledge of this scandal, would be forced to suffer the consequences of it. Businesses would close, folks will be unemployed, mortgages/utilities would go unpaid and houses foreclosed upon while PSU would continue to endure as they still are an excellent university. The "lesson" being taught to PSU, in relation to the impact on the community, would be wildly unbalanced. It would be like dropping a bomb on the town, yet the college building surviving it virtually unscathed while everything else is burning to the ground. I understand that many would say "It wouldn't be that bad" but, if you look in the classifieds for the community, 90% of the job listings are hospitality oriented. Waitresses, Janitors, Hotel staff, cooks, etc.
A little perspective for the punishment is inorder.
PSU has an endowment of over $1.7 billion USD. They can easily absorb the $60 million fine.
Agreed on the $60 million, especially since it is to be paid over a five-year period. That is about one season's worth of revenue
PSU Football was allocated 85 scholarships per year until today which goes down to 65 for 4 years.
I have not figured out how this really affects the school too badly or what kind of message it is supposed to convey. To me it means that for 4 years 20 more kids that have more physical prowess that funds for education will miss out on attending a really good university through no fault of their own
You can not take away wins. The games already happened and people have moved on.
Your logic of that statement notwithstanding, this may have more significance than you would think, at first. It does not have so much to do with affecting the football program itself, or the memory of the wins by the players/fans. What it DOES do, however, is it has summarily, unequivocally and eternally, stripped the title of "College football's most victorious Head Coach" from Mr. Joseph Vincent Paterno.
Although not a huge college football or Penn State fan myself, I know that this is HUGE in the college football world and, in my eyes, makes the biggest statement of all the sanctions. No more JoePa legacy. His name will be erased from history. He will no longer be remembered or revered in the annals of college football, but instead his legacy will be forever overshadowed by the revolting acts he helped to cover up. Since he is not here to punish, I think that this is highly appropriate punishment. It effectively says "You no longer matter". That honor now belongs to Bobby Bowden of FSU
No bowl games for 4 years means they lose out on roughly $40 million.
A paltry sum, I agree
A independent morality monitor for 5 years. Play by the rules, no problems.
Again, a joke. Playing by the rules should be standard practice and not need monitoring
5 years probation in the NCAA. Wow, play by the rules and you are fine.
That is almost a matter of rote, like an afterthought.
This NCAA punishment is a joke.
Most of it, yes.
Sadly, I don't know enough about the politics of college football to know how to have handled this differently if it was my decision. What I do know, however, is that I wouldn't want my doctor to amputate my hand in the effort to get rid of the warts on it.
Sandusky will pay and not just with the loss of his freedom. You can have my word of experience on this. I have volunteered for years at a local prison (Graterford) and have seen the "accidents" that befall child predators in the penal system. They are some of the clumsiest folks around. They fall down flights of concrete stairs or trip stepping out of the prison bus when being transported before the guards can prevent their fall. In addition, they can't put their hands out to stop themselves as they are usually fully shackled, hand and foot. They also fall a lot in the shower and are are very careless when sitting down. I have heard some accounts some of where the child molesters have not looked at the chair before sitting down and sat directly on a broomstick, effectively shoving the broomstick (or in some cases, a mop handle) in places where a broomstick should not be... Clumsy folks indeed, these child molesters.
As for the rest of the people involved? What they did is as revolting as Sandusky's actions and they are as culpable as he is. They are the folks that I am most eager to see punished. I would not be offended or repulsed by some good old fashioned public hangings. The reputation of a sports program should never trump the safety and welfare of children.
If something like this were to ever happen to either of my children, I couldn't tell you how I would react, but I'm sure that there would be a shovel or pig farmer's involved.
I am all for justice and punishment. For me, bringing the hammer down on an entire community and accepting the misfortunes of those with no involvement whatsoever and chalking it up to collateral damage is not acceptable to me.
Unfortunately, the NCAA is not responsible for the punishment of the individual folks that entirely deserve it. A complete audit and revamp of the leadership, staff, policies and practices of the PSU football program is absolutely warranted and reasonable.
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Most experts agree that the PSU football program will be competitive this coming year.
However: Most also agree this program will die competitively in DivI for at least ten years and maybe more.
Athletes that have committed are now changing their minds. Athletes that are at PSU can leave the program
and not suffer the 1 year ineligibility rule. PSU football was involved deeply in letting a pedophile continue
his indiscretions. Penn State University was guilty also permitting this pedophile to continue these heinous acts.
Wouldn't bother me if the football program was left to wither and die, it's the root cause imho.
Civil suits to follow and trials. Jail time and millions of dollars of settlements.
My question to you.....considering the crimes....is that retribution enough? I'm not wise enough to say either yes or no.
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My question to you.....considering the crimes....is that retribution enough? I'm not wise enough to say either yes or no.
Well realistically they werent going to kill off the entire program. After all business is business. And NCAA football is all about business.
All I know is if I see one more picture of a bunch of 19yos huddling together in tears thinking they got screwed, or over their beloved Jo'Pa, I might just puke over my keyboard. I havnt seen one expression of group sympathy from these students, towards the victims of this Leper and his cast of clowns who covered him, since all this started. All they can do is snivel about how the penaltys to their football program will impact their college experience.
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Well realistically they werent going to kill off the entire program. After all business is business. And NCAA football is all about business.
All I know is if I see one more picture of a bunch of 19yos huddling together in tears thinking they got screwed, or over their beloved Jo'Pa, I might just puke over my keyboard. I havnt seen one expression of group sympathy from these students, towards the victims of this Leper and his cast of clowns who covered him, since all this started. All they can do is snivel about how the penaltys to their football program will impact their college experience.
I know, right. The horror, the humanity!! Our football fun has been seriously inconvenienced.
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You all keep looking at the NCAA as some sort of judge and jury in this case. They can only enforce the rules they have in place. NCAA's rules are primarily geared towards ensuring fair competition, recruiting, etc. Putting caps on practice times, how much money athletes can be given for compensation on things, how much they can be given in scholarship, etc. D1 programs all have a Compliance Office that's entire job is to ensure NCAA rules are being followed.
The point is, this entire case is almost out of NCAA's rules reach, but not quite. They punished Penn State to their fullest extent and I think their piece of Penn State's punishment was appropriate. Further punishment is coming from Criminal and Civil cases which will nail them much harder than the NCAA did.
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You all keep looking at the NCAA as some sort of judge and jury in this case. They can only enforce the rules they have in place. NCAA's rules are primarily geared towards ensuring fair competition, recruiting, etc. Putting caps on practice times, how much money athletes can be given for compensation on things, how much they can be given in scholarship, etc. D1 programs all have a Compliance Office that's entire job is to ensure NCAA rules are being followed.
The point is, this entire case is almost out of NCAA's rules reach, but not quite. They punished Penn State to their fullest extent and I think their piece of Penn State's punishment was appropriate. Further punishment is coming from Criminal and Civil cases which will nail them much harder than the NCAA did.
Indeed, the fat lady has not yet begun to sing...
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I read that as justice is not justice unless it is punishment of YOUR design?
It never ceases to amaze me when folks cry for justice (which is certainly deserved) but then are not happy with the punishment doled out by the proper governing authority because it is not what THEY would have done.
I understand that not everyone will be happy.
Then again, with what transpired, it cannot be expected. Especially for the victims.
I eagerly await the reactions of the victims. I wonder if these penalties (or any others that COULD have been imposed) could ever assuage their suffering.
Is this not what this whole situation is really about?
I wonder if any amount of money awarded to them will make them forget what was done to them?
Will cold-hard cash make their nightmares go away?
Will punishing an entire institution or community for the transgressions of a few despicable individuals make it easier for them to perform simple daily hygiene, such as taking a shower in a locker room if they decide to play organised sports in the future without them having to relive the memory of the abuse that they were forced to endure?
I know that it wouldn't for me. Time is the only salve for these wounds and that only serves to dull the pain, at best...
It's hard to think people who deserve punishment will get what they truly deserve because of crap like this:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-DhA_RgzjX1U/TpeA0A0RRNI/AAAAAAAAAB8/7PjO8aHE55I/s1600/jail%2Bdude.PNG
The story of 54-year-old Roy Brown, a homeless man who couldn't afford to pay basic food and shelter expenses, is heartbreakingly cruel: A homeless man robbed a Louisiana bank and took a $100 bill. After feeling remorseful, he surrendered to police the next day. The judge sentenced him to 15 years in prison.
The day after this story appeared, prosecutors celebrated the fact that they were able to get a 40-month prison sentence for investment tycoon Paul R. Allen, who defrauded lenders of more than $3 billion.
A homeless man robbed a Louisiana bank and took a $100 bill. After feeling remorseful, he surrendered to police the next day. The judge sentenced him to 15 years in prison.
Roy Brown, 54, robbed the Capital One bank in Shreveport, Louisiana in December 2007. He approached the teller with one of his hands under his jacket and told her that it was a robbery.
The teller handed Brown three stacks of bill but he only took a single $100 bill and returned the remaining money back to her. He said that he was homeless and hungry and left the bank.
The next day he surrendered to the police voluntarily and told them that his mother didn't raise him that way.
Brown told the police he needed the money to stay at the detox center and had no other place to stay and was hungry. In Caddo District Court, he pleaded guilty. The judge sentenced him to 15 years in prison for first degree robbery.
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Allen was chief executive at Ocala, Fla.-based Taylor Bean & Whitaker, which collapsed in 2009 after the criminal investigation became public, resulting in its 2,000 employees losing their jobs. The fraud also contributed to the collapse of Alabama-based Colonial Bank — the sixth largest bank failure in U.S. history — after Colonial bought hundreds of millions of dollars in Taylor Bean mortgages that had already been sold to other investors.
Two other banks — Deutsche Bank and BNP Paribas — lost nearly $2 billion after buying corporate paper from Taylor Bean that was not properly backed with collateral, authorities said.
Taylor Bean and Colonial also tried to obtain more than $500 million from the government's Troubled Asset Relief Program but ultimately never received any funding from the program also known as TARP.
Neil Barofsky, who served as TARP's special inspector general, said the Taylor Bean case was the most significant criminal prosecution to arise out of the nation's financial crisis. The convictions of company chairman Lee Farkas and Allen represent some of the most high-profile executives in the housing and financial industries to receive prison time in the aftermath of the housing sector meltdown.
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And Snopes has proven this isn't just an urban legend.
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It's hard to think people who deserve punishment will get what they truly deserve because of crap like this:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-DhA_RgzjX1U/TpeA0A0RRNI/AAAAAAAAAB8/7PjO8aHE55I/s1600/jail%2Bdude.PNG
The story of 54-year-old Roy Brown, a homeless man who couldn't afford to pay basic food and shelter expenses, is heartbreakingly cruel: A homeless man robbed a Louisiana bank and took a $100 bill. After feeling remorseful, he surrendered to police the next day. The judge sentenced him to 15 years in prison.
The day after this story appeared, prosecutors celebrated the fact that they were able to get a 40-month prison sentence for investment tycoon Paul R. Allen, who defrauded lenders of more than $3 billion.
A homeless man robbed a Louisiana bank and took a $100 bill. After feeling remorseful, he surrendered to police the next day. The judge sentenced him to 15 years in prison.
Roy Brown, 54, robbed the Capital One bank in Shreveport, Louisiana in December 2007. He approached the teller with one of his hands under his jacket and told her that it was a robbery.
The teller handed Brown three stacks of bill but he only took a single $100 bill and returned the remaining money back to her. He said that he was homeless and hungry and left the bank.
The next day he surrendered to the police voluntarily and told them that his mother didn't raise him that way.
At least he has a home now.
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At least he has a home now.
Yeah. Too bad it's in a crappy place....then again they have better TV stations than me (I get 5 channels! :D ), and a free workout station.
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They should've moved Paterno's statue into the library to remind everyone to keep quiet
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They should've moved Paterno's statue into the library to remind everyone to keep quiet
Almost fell out of my chair on that one...
:rofl
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They should've moved Paterno's statue into the library to remind everyone to keep quiet
:D
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They should've moved Paterno's statue into the library to remind everyone to keep quiet
:rofl
The first funny thing I've seen since this tragic thing came to light.