Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Getback on November 30, 2012, 11:24:24 AM
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I was looking at my stats today. Noticed I have shot down 18 p51ds and each was a different pilot. Usually you kill at least one guy twice.
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you slacker :old:
I got 30 kills on them :D
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you slacker :old:
I got 30 kills on them :D
I figured I was a bit low. Did you shoot any of the pilots down more than once? Heck I'll look. What's your in-game name. Said you didn't fly.
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one guy 3 times another twice the rest all singles.
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Out of 39 kills of a P-51D, only 6 players were shot down more than once.
ack-ack
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one guy 3 times another twice the rest all singles.
Two of the ones I killed actually had the gull to fight. The others I had to chase down.
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Two of the ones I killed actually had the gull to fight. The others I had to chase down.
ya there are a few that will fight in the 51....they get the jump on me cuz I think the are just gonna run haha.....see em pass, dont bother doin anything...... then look back and see them right there...oh damn a fighting 51.....those are good fun fights...
I would say 95% just run to friends or BnZ till ya run out of fuel :D
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We should all have a contest to see who kills the most p51s.
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We should all have a contest to see who kills the most p51s.
ohhhhh..... I like that idea :aok
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ohhhhh..... I like that idea :aok
I don't know that may unlease an absolute torrent of runstangs.
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I don't know that may unlease an absolute torrent of runstangs.
we already have that :rofl
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we already have that :rofl
I got a better contest, whoever posts the best film of a P51 dogfight. :) win or lose, doesn't matter.
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I got a better contest, whoever posts the best film of a P51 dogfight. :) win or lose, doesn't matter.
what constitutes "best dogfight" ....I got a few films killing 51's.....my favorite is fighting and killing 5 of 7 :D
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what constitutes "best dogfight" ....I got a few films killing 51's.....my favorite is fighting and killing 5 of 7 :D
Length, ACM used, number of attackers, disadvantage or advantage, you know, the usual when you look at a film and go "wow, that was pretty intense to watch" ;).
I tried TnBing in a 51D a few weeks ago, had a fun encounter with Latrobe's P38. I got picked before Latrobe could get the kill but oh wells, it was fun.
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18- la7's
19- P-51D's
21- 109K-4's
22- spitXVI's
Spreading out the love!
:aok
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what constitutes "best dogfight" ....I got a few films killing 51's.....my favorite is fighting and killing 5 of 7 :D
That is an epic video and should be featured on Youtube.
"Something ain't right with that" :aok
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That is an epic video and should be featured on Youtube.
"Something ain't right with that" :aok
Thank ya :salute
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18 f6fs, 18 spit16s, 12 niki, 12 p51s. 20lancs :joystick:
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The best thing about dogfighting in a mustang is the element of surprise. I cant tell you how many spits, 109s and even Zekes I have come around on because they underestimated me. If they are expecting it, and half way good, it is very hard to get the drop on planes like that, but if they don't expect it, its easy to take down guys that are really good. I have learned to never underestimate any plane because of that. I treat everyone as if they were a top notch player, unless I know for a fact who I am fighting. In multiple engagements, its a little harder to do that for various reasons, but 1v1, I always try to give my opponent as much respect as possible.
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The best thing about dogfighting in a mustang is the element of surprise. I cant tell you how many spits, 109s and even Zekes I have come around on because they underestimated me. If they are expecting it, and half way good, it is very hard to get the drop on planes like that, but if they don't expect it, its easy to take down guys that are really good. I have learned to never underestimate any plane because of that. I treat everyone as if they were a top notch player, unless I know for a fact who I am fighting. In multiple engagements, its a little harder to do that for various reasons, but 1v1, I always try to Run from my opponent as much as possible.
I fixed it for you
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I dont know Cobia, BigR is pretty good about dogfighting that pony. I don't think you can blame him when it loses too much e and the fight swings too far the other way.
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21 now. hehe.
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18- la7's
19- P-51D's
21- 109K-4's
22- spitXVI's
Spreading out the love!
:aok
Lol you are a giver
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I was looking at my stats today. Noticed I have shot down 18 p51ds and each was a different pilot. Usually you kill at least one guy twice.
What plane dif you use?
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I see your 18 P-51s and raise you 24 B-29s :old:
:bolt:
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32 P51D's, 26 of them I was in a P51D myself :D
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Where do you find the breakdown of types of planes killed?
Nevermind..found it.
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I was looking at my stats today. Noticed I have shot down 18 p51ds and each was a different pilot. Usually you kill at least one guy twice.
16 P51D's.....Only one guy I killed twice.
22 spit XVI
13 la7
11 ki 84
Killed most by 51D.....27.
Actually after looking through the types I've killed...Only small% of them are repeat pilots. Odd. I think the most was 3 or 4. Not counting bombers.
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I dont know Cobia, BigR is pretty good about dogfighting that pony. I don't think you can blame him when it loses too much e and the fight swings too far the other way.
BigR has most kills of me in 51d with 4.
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anybody that has ever shot me down n my mustang-knows i don't run :joystick:
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That would be 21 p51 kills and 21 different pilots.
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My Top 5 kills of type in mostly P-51B and occasionally D:
P-51D 59
Spitfire Mk XVI 43
La-7 37
Bf 109K-4 26
Wirbelwind 26
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:huh :huh :huh :huh :huh :huh :huh :huh
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When I fly the P51 I fight in it. It usually surprises people an you can get the upper hand. If things aren't going my way though I can put the nose down and boogie.
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If things aren't going my way though I can put the nose down and boogie.
See, that isn't really fighting then.
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See, that isn't really fighting then.
It's realistic and historically correct tho.
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See, that isn't really fighting then.
Disagree :)
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I fixed it for you
LOL what do you even know? I can't remember the last time we even were close to each other in the MA. Stop making stuff up based on your lame biases.
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It's realistic and historically correct tho.
Yup....As aggravating as it is. I've never flown a 51, but it seems a smart move to me. Why stay and fight when you lose the advantage. Disengage then re-engage when it's more advantageous. I fly a spit XVI, when I get into a turning fight with a Brew or Zeke and lose my advantage I disengage and come back in. Why stick around?
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It's realistic and historically correct tho.
Yes, but in the context of this kind of thread he can't brag about being one of the guys who will fight in the P-51D and in the very next sentence say how he puts the nose down and runs if it starts to turn against him.
It isn't the wrong way to play by any means, but it means he is just a normal P-51D driver in the game.
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LOL what do you even know? I can't remember the last time we even were close to each other in the MA. Stop making stuff up based on your lame biases.
Nothing made up about it, you engaged,I reversed and got behind you,and you went nose down and ran to friends.
I have no reason to make it up,just the fact of the matter is you are just as guilty as the next pony pilot for tucking tail and running when you start to lose a fight.
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Disagree :)
I dont :aok
putting your nose down and running to ack or friends is anything but fighting.......... and to call it "fighting"....well I thought you were smarter then that.
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I dont :aok
putting your nose down and running to ack or friends is anything but fighting.......... and to call it "fighting"....well I thought you were smarter then that.
I'm quite aware you have a very limited concept of "fighting" as well as a very much oversimplifying view of things. :)
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I'm quite aware you have a very limited concept of "fighting" as well as a very much oversimplifying view of things. :)
yup when I want to knock a guy out..........I run to my friends and let them all attack him........
oh ya thats fighting....... :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
oh my word I heard some zingers in here....... but damn dude........ :O
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yup when I want to knock a guy out..........I run to my friends and let them all attack him........
You are the one claiming that. Not me. That's just what you put into other peoples words. That's what I meant with "oversimplifying", there's only black and white. If someone states that he might use his plane's speed instead of continuing to turn with one or several oppomnents superior at that trait, he is automatically "running to his friends". There can be NO other option, it MUST be that way.
I wish my world were that simple.
:lol
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You are the one claiming that. Not me. That's just what you put into other peoples words. That's what I meant with "oversimplifying", there's only black and white. If someone states that he might use his plane's speed instead of continuing to turn with one or several oppomnents superior at that trait, he is automatically "running to his friends. There can be NO other option, it MUST be that way.
:lol
when you hit the deck running and don't try to regain ALT or position......its running no matter how you try to spin it...if someone is using his speed to BnZ......... that is fighting.....never have I said one must be "turning" to be fighting..... :rolleyes:
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I have two options now: Repeating my last statement or being speechless in the face of ignorance.
I choose the latter one. :)
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first off :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
second off.......Tupac said ------>When I fly the P51 I fight in it. It usually surprises people an you can get the upper hand. If things aren't going my way though I can put the nose down and boogie.
Karnak quoted Tupac and said------> See, that isn't really fighting then.
You disagreed
I disagreed with you
if he puts his nose down to "boogie" IE get out of dodge....to disengage the con he was fighting....what the hell is he doing then....if not running......
let me hear your ingeniousness way of describing running for something that is the exact opposite.....
your insults are noted BTW :aok
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your insults are noted BTW :aok
oh noez. :uhoh
Can you send me a copy of said notes for my archive? :pray
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I shouldn't have said that it isn't fighting, as it clearly is, but it is also just the ho-hum standard P-51D behavior we see from the majority of P-51Ds. I may be in error, but it seemed that with his first sentence Tupac was trying to sell himself as somebody who flew the P-51D differently from the majority and that he was aggressive in it. That may be true, but his second sentence undermined that and makes it seem like he is just a normal, running P-51D player.
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Yup....As aggravating as it is. I've never flown a 51, but it seems a smart move to me. Why stay and fight when you lose the advantage. Disengage then re-engage when it's more advantageous. I fly a spit XVI, when I get into a turning fight with a Brew or Zeke and lose my advantage I disengage and come back in. Why stick around?
If you hold all the cards why fight? Whats the fun if you go into a fight with all the advantages KNOWING that you can't lose? The other side of that coin is staying in a fight even knowing your at a DISadvantage and sticking it out to see if you CAN beat the other guy. You give the other guy all the advantages and still turn the tables on him and win. How much more fun could it be?
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If you hold all the cards why fight? Whats the fun if you go into a fight with all the advantages KNOWING that you can't lose? The other side of that coin is staying in a fight even knowing your at a DISadvantage and sticking it out to see if you CAN beat the other guy. You give the other guy all the advantages and still turn the tables on him and win. How much more fun could it be?
I can see your first point. The second point is pretty cool when it happens. For me the best is when your on the deck already shot up pretty good and limping home, then the guy comes in to finish you off, you chop throttle and nail him on the way by as he over shoots...lol.
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oh noez. :uhoh
Can you send me a copy of said notes for my archive? :pray
noted in my mind :aok
so I guess you are right snailboy.....he is "fighting" to get away :rofl :rofl :rofl
I shouldn't have said that it isn't fighting, as it clearly is, but it is also just the ho-hum standard P-51D behavior we see from the majority of P-51Ds. I may be in error, but it seemed that with his first sentence Tupac was trying to sell himself as somebody who flew the P-51D differently from the majority and that he was aggressive in it. That may be true, but his second sentence undermined that and makes it seem like he is just a normal, running P-51D player.
ya "fighting to get away"
...
Love how people come up with excuses to make their lame game play Ok in their mind.
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My golden rules for running:
1. No ammo
2. No fuel
3. Pilot wounded
4. Half a wing/guns shot out
5. 10 v 1 (or more)
That is, if I'm in a faster plane. If I'm in a slower plane and know I'll be caught, I'll go down fighting. :)
If only everyone followed these rules, oh the fun people like me and ink would have. :salute
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My golden rules for running:
1. No ammo
2. No fuel
3. Pilot wounded
4. Half a wing/guns shot out
5. 10 v 1 (or more)
That is, if I'm in a faster plane. If I'm in a slower plane and know I'll be caught, I'll go down fighting. :)
If only everyone followed these rules, oh the fun people like me and ink would have. :salute
I agree and follow everything but #5 :D
you are right though imagine if everyone actually fought.......the wife would hate it...I wouldn't want to stop playing :rofl
there are a bunch that fight no matter what.......,in the context of this game they are the ones that get the most respect from me.......sadly there are far more who think they "fight".......but will tuck tail and run as soon as they lose advantage........... or the possibility of their cartoon dieing......they will be the 6th 7th 8th friendly con in on that one red con........and then there are the Vulchers the ones that by pass red cons to shoot at the guys taking off or landing.....I dont care who you are...that is the lamest "fighting" to do in AH.
let me guess snailboy you must think Vulching is fighting too..........
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Nothing made up about it, you engaged,I reversed and got behind you,and you went nose down and ran to friends.
I have no reason to make it up,just the fact of the matter is you are just as guilty as the next pony pilot for tucking tail and running when you start to lose a fight.
Lets see the film.
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51 was one of my favs for turning. People never expected it. She is one tough plane to do tricks with slow!
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and then there are the Vulchers the ones that by pass red cons to shoot at the guys taking off or landing.....I dont care who you are...that is the lamest "fighting" to do in AH.
I agree with the taking off vulching as lame (though I can't say I've never done it). But if your fighting within sight of a base and you shoot a guy up after which he tries to make it back to land, I have no problem with shooting him up as he is hitting the runway. Actually on second thought I would consider anyone landing pretty much fair game. As he is/was already part of the action.
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Make that 27 p51s and 27 different pilots. Partly that's because I jumped sides.
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Where is the honor is expecting a plane that lost it advantage to fight to your planes advantage?
Also Ink Id like to hear you opinion on this
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,342208.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,342208.0.html)
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Where is the honor is expecting a plane that lost it advantage to fight to your planes advantage?
Also Ink Id like to hear you opinion on this
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,342208.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,342208.0.html)
This!
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Where is the honor is expecting a plane that lost it advantage to fight to your planes advantage?
It has nothing to do with honor and everything to do with the satisfaction of being that plane that lost, or didn't have, the advantages, and winning anyways. If you always bug out when you don't have the advantage you also never get to beat the odds and win the fights you ought to have lost.
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Where is the honor is expecting a plane that lost it advantage to fight to your planes advantage?
In that if roles reversed, you will not give up, and do your best to continue to give your opponent a challenge as well. May the better pilot that fight win.
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I fly a spit XVI, when I get into a turning fight with a Brew or Zeke and lose my advantage I disengage and come back in. Why stick around?
I also fly a Spit XVI and I can't find many Zeke or Brewster drivers that can beat me one on one. Why? I stick around to fight even though I may have temporarily lost my advantage. In fact one night I beat three Brewsters by myself. Certainly at least one of them always had an advantage on me right?
The difference is when you lose the advantage you look for an exit while I look for a way to get it back.
Now if I could only stop flying into seas of red...
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turnfighting in a P51D is all nice and funny until you cross someone that knows half of his plane and kills you in 2 turns...turny planes crying and making homosexual assumptions about runners always made me giggle.
That said it's funny how you get much more action in a P51D than in a zero for instance, nobody is running from you and every spit wants your scalp :D
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The difference is when you lose the advantage you look for an exit while I look for a way to get it back.
Temporary exit.....
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That said it's funny how you get much more action in a P51D than in a zero for instance, nobody is running from you and every spit wants your scalp :D
This is so true. Still, i have seen ki84s "trying" to run from a deck Dora after they could not bore-n-zoom me (nippon awesomeness squad and co...) :rofl
I can understand everyone who is not turning a pony with a spit, those who dont want to fight against 2-3 cons alone, also a BnZ game can be an exciting fight too. It turns into a chicken shizz fest only when someone has no balls to get close to the opponents unless he holds all the cards, such as speed, alt, buddies, etc etc, then when it comes to a same plane co-E 1v1, run like a beyotch. Those are noones.
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I think the Dora and the P51-d a good match. I've had some good fights with some pilots.
Oh btw killed 18 P-51d's and 2 P-51b's only 2 players twice. :D
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turnfighting in a P51D is all nice and funny until you cross someone that knows half of his plane and kills you in 2 turns...turny planes crying and making homosexual assumptions about runners always made me giggle.
That said it's funny how you get much more action in a P51D than in a zero for instance, nobody is running from you and every spit wants your scalp :D
It is news to me that the Mosquito is a "turny" plane. P-51Ds run from me just the same once they think they've lost the advantage.
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I fixed it for you
Gonna have to side with BigR on this one Cobia. Based on experience, he's one who fights that 51 low and slow. haven't seen him running from a fight
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ya there are a few that will fight in the 51....they get the jump on me cuz I think the are just gonna run haha.....see em pass, dont bother doin anything...... then look back and see them right there...oh damn a fighting 51.....those are good fun fights...
I would say 95% just run to friends or BnZ till ya run out of fuel :D
Gotta admit that turn fighting a Ki-84 in a Mustang would be foolish unless you can keep the fight fast. Not much point in getting low and slow with an 84 though. I would agree that there aren't many who 'fight' in it in the classic dogfight that an MA furballer prefers. But there are a few who've learned to bend it better then most.
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If you hold all the cards why fight? Whats the fun if you go into a fight with all the advantages KNOWING that you can't lose? The other side of that coin is staying in a fight even knowing your at a DISadvantage and sticking it out to see if you CAN beat the other guy. You give the other guy all the advantages and still turn the tables on him and win. How much more fun could it be?
If being at a disadvantage floats one's boat, then wouldn't an adversary in a fast plane with altitude and position + a few friends be your ideal situation?
You know what is kind of funny? The disparity between the air game and ground game as far as "fighting" goes... in the MA, the best way to get a <S> or some props on 200 is to fly something slow that turns well.
On the OTHER hand... if you are running GVs, apparently there is some sort of convoluted square dance with a list of unwritten rules that must be followed... you need to grab a tank, go find a spot to "camp" (And woe unto you if you are in someone else's spot!) and TURN OFF YOUR ENGINE!!! Your mobility is a distant second to your "allies" being able to hear the enemy spawn in!!
So, my taking an M3 with the 75mm gun was apparently a huge faux pas. Now, I will say that doing the "Dukes of Hazard" dixie thing over ranged every time I launched a hill at 50mph may have been excessive.
On the other hand, I cleaned up rather well:
M3 (75mm):
M-18: 9
M4A3(75): 6
M4A3(76)W: 2
PzKpfwIV-F: 16
PzKpfwIV-H: 10
T-34/85: 1
Unfortunately, even at point blank range, I was unable to hole a Königstiger with multiple shots at 6', but it was still fun to scare them.
I was like 10:1 K/D until they figured out could disable/kill me with a .22 Deringer. Was still fun after that!
Anyway, the lesson learned here is that the way to win friends and influence people in the air and on the ground are basically polar opposites... on the ground you want a heavy, stationary turd, and in the air you want something slow that floats like a butterfly and stings like a bee. No one really cares about the skill required as far as marksmanship goes in the air, take as many cannon as you want!!
You guys can talk smack about the P51 all you want... I'm too much of a crack addled spidermonkey to pull off the E-management required to successfully scrum at MA altitudes in a Bravo while maintaining a safe speed. The climb rate is meh, the turn rate is quite short lived, and the acceleration ranks right up there with a Toyota Sienna... without a decent amount of altitude, you aren't regaining speed anytime soon. In fact, once you bleed enough to saddle someone and kill them with 4 .50 cals (Again, talking about my ability here, not some of the bad tulips out there) 80% of the plane set has "all the cards".
I do notice one thing though... I can roll through a furball all day in a Ki-84, which is staggeringly easier to fly under MA conditions than the P-51B, and merrily de-wing opponents all day long with no grief... but man, bring a Bravo to the fight and you up your chances of a whine on 200 by several orders of magnitude.
It's too bad all the yahoos that fly the La-7 are posers... if a few of the greats were to take that as their chosen ride, they would have to upgrade the BBS code to keep up with the sky is falling whines.
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Gotta admit that turn fighting a Ki-84 in a Mustang would be foolish unless you can keep the fight fast. Not much point in getting low and slow with an 84 though. I would agree that there aren't many who 'fight' in it in the classic dogfight that an MA furballer prefers. But there are a few who've learned to bend it better then most.
I do this against Ki84's, with the most recent being Ink. I can usually tell it's him within the first couple of turns, especially how he gets the Ki84 slow and cuts the corners inside the turning and reversing. So, I end up losing the fights to him. :)
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tunnelrat,
Odd, I've never seen a complaint about the P-51B. They are very rare. Last one I recall seeing was about two or three years ago when it dove on my Spitfire Mk XIV. I was pretty surprised how fast the Spitfire Mk XIV was able to reverse the energy situation and kill the P-51B.
As to your point, well, obviously heavy, poor turning aircraft don't do as well in a slow furball, but there are methods to fight in which things like the Fw190, P-47, P-51, Mosquito and Typhoon can be used aggressively without long stretches of running. I don't think anybody is suggesting the Me410s should get into slow, horizontal turn fights with A6M5s.
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Where is the honor is expecting a plane that lost it advantage to fight to your planes advantage?
Also Ink Id like to hear you opinion on this
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,342208.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,342208.0.html)
I think Cobia summed it up perfectly in that thread.....I would Add........ never would I do that to my self or anyone else....stupidity for sure
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Where is the honor is expecting a plane that lost it advantage to fight to your planes advantage?
The way of the Samurai is found in death.
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tunnelrat,
Odd, I've never seen a complaint about the P-51B. They are very rare. Last one I recall seeing was about two or three years ago when it dove on my Spitfire Mk XIV. I was pretty surprised how fast the Spitfire Mk XIV was able to reverse the energy situation and kill the P-51B.
As to your point, well, obviously heavy, poor turning aircraft don't do as well in a slow furball, but there are methods to fight in which things like the Fw190, P-47, P-51, Mosquito and Typhoon can be used aggressively without long stretches of running. I don't think anybody is suggesting the Me410s should get into slow, horizontal turn fights with A6M5s.
The complaints about the 51B ARE generally directed at one person hahahahaha....
But, honestly, aside from the gun package and obviously the ordnance options, the Bravo is superior to the Delta in almost all ways.
I am right on-board with those that decry the behavior of some pilots, who tend to fly 51Ds, 190D9s, or (more rarely) 109K4s... they dive in, either miss/collide/get lucky, and then haul bellybutton a sector away... OR if you catch them and dive on THEM they will vector on the nearest target and try to get one more kill before you get them.
The fact of the matter is, when someone is fighting intelligently in a 51 (regardless of mark) they will be BnZing... which means that TnB planes have to use a little more patience and strategy to kill one.
It is also conducive to attacking an already engaged opponent, since everyone in the MA dogpiles any enemy con they see, and are therefore pretty much always engaged. Of course, the term "picking" apparently means "anything that isn't a HO" if there are more than 2 planes in the fight.
And while you and I get that telling a Mossie to turn fight a Zero or he isn't "fighting" is absurd, you'd be surprised how many people appear to subscribe to the "Fly a turner, or die in your BnZ plane with cartoon honor!"
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Gotta admit that turn fighting a Ki-84 in a Mustang would be foolish unless you can keep the fight fast. Not much point in getting low and slow with an 84 though. I would agree that there aren't many who 'fight' in it in the classic dogfight that an MA furballer prefers. :cry
absolutely...... there are a few Pony sticks that are very good in it and fight Their arses off.....They don't just nose down trying to get away as soon as they might lose a bit of advantage..... :aok
I do this against Ki84's, with the most recent being Ink. I can usually tell it's him within the first couple of turns, especially how he gets the Ki84 slow and cuts the corners inside the turning and reversing. So, I end up losing the fights to him. :)
you dont make it easy......thats for watermelon sure. :aok
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tunnelrat,
Yup. BnZ has to be aggressive or you'll never bleed the E out of your opponent. That is something the guys who run for a sector after each pass don't get. They aren't really BnZing as there is no element of forcing E starvation on their opponents. They are simply relying on picking people who didn't see them.
The way of the Samurai is found in death.
So far as I know that means that you fight with your death an accepted and assumed outcome in order to remove the fear of death. Once the warrior is no longer worried about dying he doesn't waste energy and thought on it and can focus more effectively on the actual fighting. There is no requirement that he has to fight stupidly.
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The way of the Samurai is found in death.
Yep but the Pony is an American plane. The real problem is that so many new guys jump in a pony and learn to hit n run so early they never real progress( MIdway Syndrome) and they rarely ask the old Pony hands on advise for fighting it.
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tunnelrat,
Yup. BnZ has to be aggressive or you'll never bleed the E out of your opponent. That is something the guys who run for a sector after each pass don't get. They aren't really BnZing as there is no element of forcing E starvation on their opponents. They are simply relying on picking people who didn't see them.
Yeah, I have understood the concept for a long time, but I am just now taking the baby steps to put it into practice... that, and making much more decisive, e-bleeding moves instead of being conservative and just not making the shot if it doesn't look moderately simple to do...
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No Karnak, that is not the point.
Nathan, perhaps if you have committed to the fight, brought all the advantages your aircraft and position have to bear on your opponent and he still gets the better of you then you should accept your defeat in good grace, consider how you might improve for the next time, and then get a new aircraft.
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No Karnak, that is not the point.
Nathan, perhaps if you have committed to the fight, brought all the advantages your aircraft and position have to bear on your opponent and he still gets the better of you then you should accept your defeat in good grace, consider how you might improve for the next time, and then get a new aircraft.
I knew there was something about you I liked :salute
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I knew there was something about you I liked :salute
It's his hair.
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I knew there was something about you I liked :salute
And from this man I learned more about Zen and myself in one fight, than I had for months prior :salute
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It's his hair.
:rofl :rofl
And from this man I learned more about Zen and myself in one fight, than I had for months prior :salute
I am humbled and Honored :salute
Hows little Shida doing?
you guys are in my thoughts.
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Hows little Shida doing?
you guys are in my thoughts.
Little Shida does well thank you. He is 3830 grammes today so he's quite a whopper compared to the 720 grammes he once was.
His Chandelles could use some work but otherwise thriving and happy. :salute
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Little Shida does well thank you. He is 3830 grammes today so he's quite a whopper compared to the 720 grammes he once was.
His Chandelles could use some work but otherwise thriving and happy. :salute
that is wonderful bro... :rock :rock.....I am very happy for you and the Missus.......
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Little Shida does well thank you. He is 3830 grammes today so he's quite a whopper compared to the 720 grammes he once was.
His Chandelles could use some work but otherwise thriving and happy. :salute
Your son is a preemie? So was our son. 2 pounds, 14 inches. That was 22 years ago.....I remember the sign they put on his incubator. "Welcome to the Kilo club" when he finally hit a kilo.....lol.
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Yes he was born at 28 weeks. :salute
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Yes he was born at 28 weeks. :salute
My son was 3 months early , even for that they said he was small for his gestational age...Gotta watch his ears folding over right?. Was a bit of a shock...lol. For everyone else, preemies don't have all their cartilage yet so their ears will stay folded over if you don't fix them, after sleeping etc. :salute
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My half brother was born three months early. He is 14 now.
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Glad to hear mini-shida is getting on OK bud. Before you know it he'll be running all round the place and you'll find it difficult to remember what it was like having such a tiny person.
My little one is the very opposite, he just had his 15 month check-up yesterday and is in 98th centile for height. He's bloody huge!
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Glad to hear mini-shida is getting on OK bud. Before you know it he'll be running all round the place and you'll find it difficult to remember what it was like having such a tiny person.
My little one is the very opposite, he just had his 15 month check-up yesterday and is in 98th centile for height. He's bloody huge!
Coombzy Have fun feeding him and Shida its good to hear things are going well.
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Thank you all. We are very happy to have him after our experience. Yes the floppy ear thing is funny, he's got real ones now though, and getting big fast, catching up. Have to savour each day as the little ones change so quickly as Mr. Coombz observes :old:
It's wonderful being a father, makes my heart swell with pride to see the little tyke standing on the table, holding my CH stick with both hands and reversing P-51s (back on topic :lol) in his Nakajima, wearing his special flying diaper and the tiny silk scarf and goggles that Zack sent.
I expect your son can already reach the pedals Mr. Coombz. Mine has to tilt his head a bit for now & I work them for him :banana:
Anyway P-51s, Sir Nuke flies a fine one. But I think the most epic fight I ever had with a P-51 was about a month ago with some numbers guy who knew how to BnZ properly, just getting into the vert safely and mostly just slightly out of reach, just dangling himself enough to get you to commit to the vert for the shot with a tiny bit too little energy. I had a couple of tickles on him and one solid shot in the end which I was sure was enough, but he survived it and it cost me the fight. Epic battle <S> whoever you were.
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I still dont see where the honor is. Basically this all seems like a great way tho chide and shame someone into fighting a fight his A/c can never win. It's like you guys are saying 'I made you lose your e and advantage now you must fight to my advantage which will result in your death' but then you guys are supprised when someone chooses not to fight your fight. Now the one pass hoing from 1k out and run folks are a different matter
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thx shida :aok
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I still dont see where the honor is. Basically this all seems like a great way tho chide and shame someone into fighting a fight his A/c can never win. It's like you guys are saying 'I made you lose your e and advantage now you must fight to my advantage which will result in your death' but then you guys are supprised when someone chooses not to fight your fight. Now the one pass hoing from 1k out and run folks are a different matter
Perhaps for some there is more dignity in accepting your defeat than trying anything to survive. More especially in a combat simulator where no one (egos aside) actually gets hurt. Fly how you wish in Aces High, and be defined by your actions.
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Perhaps for some there is more dignity in accepting your defeat than trying anything to survive. More especially in a combat simulator where no one (egos aside) actually gets hurt. Fly how you wish in Aces High, and be defined by your actions.
Like I said you expect them to continue fighting bleeding e until your advantage is so great they have no hope? Meanwile they could have disengaged? Yeah man I'm sorry that just seems like an excellent way to goad people into padding your stats. Like I said the one and done guys can be jeered but someone that comes in and mixes it up then gets out when the fight is lost is figthing smart. If you force someone to run be dignified and accept that as a victory and dont flaunt it over 200, becasue otherwise you just want the same thing as someone who cares about score. Your name in lights. Its about the fight not about bragging on 200 or a system message.
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Like I said you expect them to continue fighting bleeding e until your advantage is so great they have no hope? Meanwile they could have disengaged? Yeah man I'm sorry that just seems like an excellent way to goad people into padding your stats. Like I said the one and done guys can be jeered but someone that comes in and mixes it up then gets out when the fight is lost is figthing smart.
I don't expect anything. I do not goad people. I do not criticise people's flying. I do not consider stats. You asked about honour & I tried to share an insight. I do not see the burden of explanation being on me. Fight as you wish. :salute
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Perhaps for some there is more dignity in accepting your defeat than trying anything to survive. More especially in a combat simulator where no one (egos aside) actually gets hurt. Fly how you wish in Aces High, and be defined by your actions.
Like I said you expect them to continue fighting bleeding e until your advantage is so great they have no hope? Meanwile they could have disengaged? Yeah man I'm sorry that just seems like an excellent way to goad people into padding your stats. Like I said the one and done guys can be jeered but someone that comes in and mixes it up then gets out when the fight is lost is figthing smart. If you force someone to run be dignified and accept that as a victory and dont flaunt it over 200, becasue otherwise you just want the same thing as someone who cares about score. Your name in lights. Its about the fight not about bragging on 200 or a system message.
Wow
One has to wonder if you continually miss the point and post this kind of rubbish on purpose just to be contrary, or if you are actually incapable of understanding things that are quite clearly written, such as shida's post above
:headscratch:
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I don't expect anything. I do not goad people. I do not criticise people's flying. I do not consider stats. You asked about honour & I tried to share an insight. I do not see the burden of explanation being on me. Fight as you wish. :salute
Im not saying you personally have to explain anything , Im offering an opinion and asking for others.
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Wow
One has to wonder if you continually miss the point and post this kind of rubbish on purpose just to be contrary, or if you are actually incapable of understanding things that are quite clearly written
:headscratch:
I see the point that is being made. I just have a differing opinion perhaps you should try and contemplate my point before dismissing it as rubbish? How is anything I have said rubbish?
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I do understand your point, after all it's one that we see repeated quite often on these boards. I even agree with it to an extent. I'm not one of these 'fly hard, die hard' air samurai like nrshida and ink & co...if I need to run away to grab some alt or escape a gang raping then I will do so *shrug*
It's just that what you said bears no relevance whatsoever to the post of nrshida's that you quoted :huh
It's almost like you hit quote without reading what he said and then just copy and pasted the standard P51 runner response in reply :)
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I do understand your point, after all it's one that we see repeated quite often on these boards. I even agree with it to an extent. I'm not one of these 'fly hard, die hard' air samurai like nrshida and ink & co...if I need to run away to grab some alt or escape a gang raping then I will do so *shrug*
It's just that what you said bears no relevance whatsoever to the post of nrshida's that you quoted :huh
It's almost like you hit quote without reading what he said and then just copy and pasted the standard P51 runner response in reply :)
Yes it does I ask why would someone want to continue the fight thier plane is not built for(a direct resaponse to the very first line of the quote from shida), to the point that the figth becomes hopeless for them when they can simply disengage. and if it's truely about the fight you shouldnt feel the need to disparage someone that mixed it up with yuou but disengaged when the fight went south.
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Look at it this way whats the point of beating up a track star that can box once you have him pinned to the ground? A slow pony is a dead pony
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Perhaps for some there is more dignity in accepting your defeat than trying anything to survive. More especially in a combat simulator where no one (egos aside) actually gets hurt. Fly how you wish in Aces High, and be defined by your actions.
Look, read, and inwardly digest these words of wisdom :salute
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I am saying where is the dignity in disparaging those that dont feel that way? I'm syaing this
turnfighting in a P51D is all nice and funny until you cross someone that knows half of his plane and kills you in 2 turns...turny planes crying and making homosexual assumptions about runners always made me giggle.
In a more pc manner
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I guess I just don't agree that nrshida was being disparaging
If his comments make you feel defensive that probably speaks more of insecurity on your part than anything else
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I guess I just don't agree that nrshida was being disparaging
If his comments make you feel defensive that probably speaks more of insecurity on your part than anything else
Ok I should have clarified that my comments were not Shida specific. also I should clarify I do try to mix it up in ponys and dont often run, and I dont consider myself a runner, but I can understand why some would mix it up and disengage when they start losing, and for the elite that often profess that the figth is everything they should consider turning a figth around but not getting the kill as a victory in its own right and shouldn't need that extra kill in there stat column. I just feel that goading someone to fight a fight they cant win is not very honerable.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/scores/players.php (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/scores/players.php)
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Yes it does I ask why would someone want to continue the fight thier plane is not built for(a direct resaponse to the very first line of the quote from shida), to the point that the figth becomes hopeless for them when they can simply disengage. and if it's truely about the fight you shouldnt feel the need to disparage someone that mixed it up with yuou but disengaged when the fight went south.
Nathan, what happens to the P-51 versus the Ki-84 (for example), happens to the Ki-84 versus the Brewster, the Zero, the Hurricane, the F4F, most of the Spitfires and so on. The reason I stick around once my advantages are lost is because it is hard. It is hard to hang with those aircraft in a manoeuvring fight, and this is the activity I get the most satisfaction from. Not everyone plays to win (not that I play to lose). I realise this is a less than popular view. I am not trying to convince you to do likewise, I was merely participating in the discussion.
I do not always stick around to fight by the way, sometimes when I am completely out of ammunition I leave, and increasingly I leave if I see a ganging emerging simply because I don't think they've earned it. However if I'm mixing it with a couple of turny birds I am usually fighting so hard that escaping is the last thing on my mind. Do I fly smart? Really depends on your perspective doesn't it?
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Look I'm not saying your wrong or that you are not fighting smart, I am saying that if someone mixes it up and decides to leave while they have a chance to survive I wont judge them negatively for it. Just as I dont judge you in your figthing style I would expect the same courtesy. I stay in the fight myself but if someone bolts I am also fine with that I go find another fight. Also please see above I did not mean for my posts to be specific to you Shida. I'll often fl;y into a horde get as many low as I can then try to fly them into the ground. Why? Because its fun and I dont care about dieing.
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Yes it does I ask why would someone want to continue the fight thier plane is not built for(a direct resaponse to the very first line of the quote from shida), to the point that the figth becomes hopeless for them when they can simply disengage. and if it's truely about the fight you shouldnt feel the need to disparage someone that mixed it up with yuou but disengaged when the fight went south.
My answer, to see if I can do it.
If i'm in a spit16 and your in a P47-25 I should win the fight in most cases because the spit hold most of the cards. If I'm in the P47 and your in the spit you should win for the same reason, but I'm not going to dive away or anything. I will pull every trick I can think of to see if I can shoot you down. That to me is what the game is about. If I want to just cruise around in a plane I can go fly X plane or something. I want the fight!
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I am saying that if someone mixes it up and decides to leave while they have a chance to survive I wont judge them negatively for it.
I don't either.
It is a difficult level to achieve, to make a choice for yourself and then not judge others by your standards.
Also please see above I did not mean for my posts to be specific to you Shida.
Do not worry my friend, I did not think you did and besides I no longer take anything on this board personally or very seriously in any case.
Interesting discussion :salute
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It is a difficult level to achieve, to make a choice for yourself and then not judge others by your standards.
Interesting discussion :salute
Thing is hardly any of us know eachother so you only have to live to your standards and realise others live to theirs. As I said before I do judge those that will ho from 1k out then go straight to the running differently, Those people bother me in the fact that they will never learn anything until they do atleast try. Its a gradual process learning this game, you cant expect people to go from hoing from 1 k out to gamely mixing it up when they don't know anything. They have to be able to mix it up disengage and think about what they could have done better. If they simply die it becomes frustration and chiding them on 200 doesn't help that process IMO. BUt like you said its only a discussion :rock :salute
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What bothers me about threads like this is that the 51D only comes under scrutiny for running because it is the most widely used plane in the game, and because its fast.
So the argument going back and forth right now is pony pilots should die with honor if they engage, get low and slow, and lose advantage, right? And that a BNZ plane should be expected to try and turn with an agile TnB fighter.
lets not forget that 51 pilots are cowards if they egress out of a disadvantageous situation to regain a foothold on the fight and come back on better terms.
Make no mistake, I am not saying that everyone posting in here against the 51 are saying just this, but really a lot of you are whether you think you are or not.
People will play this game the way they want to play it, it is their money they can do whatever they want. If they dont care about dying because they have an infinite amount of virtual lives and they just want a good fight, then great. Power to you. Some people like to have a good fight AND get home alive because they consider that more 'prestigious' than dying in a fireball. Fantastic. Of course then there are those who only engage targets when 3 other people already have them occupied and who run like bats out of Hades when a plane can challenge them. Whatever, its your money.
why anyone would call a 51 diving away from a slow turn fight against a ki86, for example, a coward makes no sense to me. The 51 pilot is showing knowledge of the enemy aircraft (and in his own) in knowing that if he stays in that slow turn fight he will quickly find himself in a heap of trouble. If the roles were reversed and I was the one flying the Ki, I wouldn't be thinking "hey this guy is a do-or-die flyer", I would think the 51 pilot stupid for engaging me like that, and it would come off to me as him being an inexperienced pilot who didn't know his plane. And for those of you that are bragging about how many 51's you've killed that's probably what went through your head too, right? Either that or "ZOMG WEAKSAUCE 51 N00B COULDNT OUTRUN ME COULD YOU?" :x
Im not, however, defending those 51 pilots that dont engage for anything and use the plane just simply for its speed and its 'run away' factor. But again, its your money so I have nothing ill to say either I suppose.
Bottom line, just because you dont care whether or not your plane makes it back to base doesnt mean your opponent doesn't either, believe it or not (see what i did there?). I myself get the most fun out of having a few good engagements and getting home, whether or not I had to disengage from a fight I was clearly losing, and whether my plane comes back without a scratch or bent almost beyond recognition, although I admit i have a little more fun limping a wounded bird back to base, little more satisfaction in making it home. :aok
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Ripley,
P-51D drivers aren't being called cowards by most of us. Just timid.
You can use the P-51D very successfully in an aggressive manner, but most are very timid and rely on just getting kills on AFKers and inattentive players without ever employing a proper BnZ.
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Nathan, what happens to the P-51 versus the Ki-84 (for example), happens to the Ki-84 versus the Brewster, the Zero, the Hurricane, the F4F, most of the Spitfires and so on. The reason I stick around once my advantages are lost is because it is hard. It is hard to hang with those aircraft in a manoeuvring fight, and this is the activity I get the most satisfaction from. Not everyone plays to win (not that I play to lose). I realise this is a less than popular view. I am not trying to convince you to do likewise, I was merely participating in the discussion.
I do not always stick around to fight by the way, sometimes when I am completely out of ammunition I leave, and increasingly I leave if I see a ganging emerging simply because I don't think they've earned it. However if I'm mixing it with a couple of turny birds I am usually fighting so hard that escaping is the last thing on my mind. Do I fly smart? Really depends on your perspective doesn't it?
:aok I used to love fighting with you in the DA over the lake. Was always fun
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Ripley,
P-51D drivers aren't being called cowards by most of us. Just timid.
You can use the P-51D very successfully in an aggressive manner, but most are very timid and rely on just getting kills on AFKers and inattentive players without ever employing a proper BnZ.
"Timid" and "Coward" are one in the same, one just sounds nicer than the other. While (afaik) no one actually came out and called 51 pilots cowards, many posts in this thread feel more like the latter word to me than the former.
And yes, I agree that many dont employ proper BnZ and rely on special circumstances (ganging, vulching, afkers...) to get kills, but you will see that with people flying any plane in this game, you just hear about ponies doing it because they are popular, fast and will more often then not actually get away.
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I dont :aok
putting your nose down and running to ack or friends is anything but fighting.......... and to call it "fighting"....well I thought you were smarter then that.
Well if putting your nose down and running is "not fighting" what is putting your nose up and climbing when you're flying a k4 or anything else that outclimbs its opponent?
I'm not directing this at you in particular.
Just because there is not the same separation, a k4 who can only use its climb to take the advantage is doing the exact same thing. It's just running a different direction. Only the k4, doesnt leave he uses that advantage. The pony has a harder task re-engaging if he can't get the alt advantage.
Bottom line is, each plane has strengths and weaknesses and if a pony driver will take the chance to engage in a turn fight until he doesnt have the energy to maintain the fight on at least an even keel, then he deserves every bit as much respect as any other type of flyer in the game. No one regardless of what they fly will ALWAYS fly their ride outside of it's envelope when they are guaranteed to lose if they do.
I gather you fly the Ki84, I bet you don't stay engaged in turn fights with an equal pilot flying zekes or brews. There's no way you could unless you run or die. So why should a pony continue to try and out turn a Ki84?
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Well if putting your nose down and running is "not fighting" what is putting your nose up and climbing when you're flying a k4 or anything else that outclimbs its opponent?
I'm not directing this at you in particular.
Just because there is not the same separation, a k4 who can only use its climb to take the advantage is doing the exact same thing. It's just running a different direction. Only the k4, doesnt leave he uses that advantage. The pony has a harder task re-engaging if he can't get the alt advantage.
Bottom line is, each plane has strengths and weaknesses and if a pony driver will take the chance to engage in a turn fight until he doesnt have the energy to maintain the fight on at least an even keel, then he deserves every bit as much respect as any other type of flyer in the game. No one regardless of what they fly will ALWAYS fly their ride outside of it's envelope when they are guaranteed to lose if they do.
I gather you fly the Ki84, I bet you don't stay engaged in turn fights with an equal pilot flying zekes or brews. There's no way you could unless you run or die. So why should a pony continue to try and out turn a Ki84?
you would lose that bet. :aok
1-I never disengage from a fight once I start no matter what I am up against or how many...the only time I do disengage I am bingo ammo/fuel or have to avoid the nme's friends and merge with the other nme....FACT
2-Using your planes strengths against your nme is a good thing..... I don't care if a 51 BnZ's the crap outta me as long as he tries to actually fight, I never said one must be in a "turn" fight to be fighting......
people just don't like being called out on their lame game play, and I am not sorry but I will always call it the way I see it....if you are in a 51....190..ECT ECT..and all you can do is a couple lame no maneuver HO passes climb 5k away and come back and HO with no maneuvers......your game play is lame...
and there is big difference in a K4 using his climb to rope a guy..... then a 51(or any speed demon) running to ACK or friends as soon as he loses advantage...if you cant see the difference in that....well then I have no more to say to you.....for you are lost already.
and just a bit of advice...........before you make a "bet" you should know what you are betting against. :aok
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Nathan, what happens to the P-51 versus the Ki-84 (for example), happens to the Ki-84 versus the Brewster, the Zero, the Hurricane, the F4F, most of the Spitfires and so on. The reason I stick around once my advantages are lost is because it is hard.
I disagree there, isn't a sure death by turning the easy way out, while you could have gone to bnz mode and try to survive on another characteristic of your airframe?
My perspective is that the die hard people are taking the easy way out, draped in their suicidal glory :angel:
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I would not get into an arguement about what is easyer, picking down from 20k with many buddies then centering the stick in the fastest plane or dodging 3-4 cons at once and killing them one after one...
But if hitting the wep button and flying straight is hard enough for you... its your choice after all ;)
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I disagree there, isn't a sure death by turning the easy way out,
I've never really thought about it that way, but I am certainly not looking for a martyr's death to escape damage to the ego if that is what you are suggesting. If I find myself in a fight with a coupe of turny planes or any combination of planes I just go balls deep and try to fight as hard as I can. It isn't realistic to expect to win or even survive (although you sometimes do), but I'll make sure they have to earn it. Actually mostly the funniest part is watching them fall over each other to be the one to get the 'kill', or even funnier as you whittle down the numbers watching the ones that remain trying to decide whether to leave or not.
As I have said I appreciate that you, for instance, have different motivations for playing this game. I wonder why it inevitably comes down to destroying the other faction's standpoint though.
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What I think I learned from this thread;
Whether you run or die, your taking the easy way out.
:headscratch:
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you would lose that bet. :aok
1-I never disengage from a fight once I start no matter what I am up against or how many...the only time I do disengage I am bingo ammo/fuel or have to avoid the nme's friends and merge with the other nme....FACT
2-Using your planes strengths against your nme is a good thing..... I don't care if a 51 BnZ's the crap outta me as long as he tries to actually fight, I never said one must be in a "turn" fight to be fighting......
people just don't like being called out on their lame game play, and I am not sorry but I will always call it the way I see it....if you are in a 51....190..ECT ECT..and all you can do is a couple lame no maneuver HO passes climb 5k away and come back and HO with no maneuvers......your game play is lame...
and there is big difference in a K4 using his climb to rope a guy..... then a 51(or any speed demon) running to ACK or friends as soon as he loses advantage...if you cant see the difference in that....well then I have no more to say to you.....for you are lost already.
and just a bit of advice...........before you make a "bet" you should know what you are betting against. :aok
With Respect Ink,
I just wanted to get my opinion in here. I realize that the post that was quoted before this said "nose down and run to ack/friends", but take that "run to ack/friends" out and putting the nose down in a 51 and disengaging from a turn fight that they are starting to lose is actually a tactic. You are using a strength of that plane to dive away, get some distance and speed, and re-engage in a fight that's hopefully a little more in the 51's favor. It's, like you said, when people take advantage of that and hit the deck doing 500mph headed for home that it fails to be a tactic.
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Far from me the urge to judge the other players play style :old: Everyone is finding is own fun, that's the beauty and sandbox like games :aok
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If you leave icon range and come back, in a 1v1, or even worse, in a 2+ v 1, you're a turd.
I will agree with that.
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:aok I used to love fighting with you in the DA over the lake. Was always fun
Just noticed this! Yours was the first P-51D I ever fought where I realised they could do much more than go fast in straight lines! :banana:
Always a challenge and a pleasure fighting you Uptown :salute
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What about those darn RGPs that run in circles? :noid
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With Respect Ink,
I just wanted to get my opinion in here. I realize that the post that was quoted before this said "nose down and run to ack/friends", but take that "run to ack/friends" out and putting the nose down in a 51 and disengaging from a turn fight that they are starting to lose is actually a tactic. You are using a strength of that plane to dive away, get some distance and speed, and re-engage in a fight that's hopefully a little more in the 51's favor. It's, like you said, when people take advantage of that and hit the deck doing 500mph headed for home that it fails to be a tactic.
yup if he is trying to get ALT or a better position to attack, absolutely more power to them, I do enjoy a good BnZ vs turny bird fight especially if the guy is aggressive.....with equal pilots in there perspective rides it will most often be a draw.......
my point is...if you are gonna run and then call it "fighting" you need to get a clue.
and don't expect me and others like me...... to pat you on the back for lame game play.
What about those darn RGPs that run in circles? :noid
:D
EDITed out some stuff...damn thought I was in another thread :rofl
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Ink if its all about the fight, making them run should be a victory to you, you shouldn't have to get a k in the column just to be satisfied. Needing that kill some would call scoreherding. Im not talklking about the one and done guiys Im talking about someone that comes down and gives it a go. Forcing them to break out and boogie should be its own reward if it truely was 'all about the fight'
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Ink if its all about the fight, making them run should be a victory to you, you shouldn't have to get a k in the column just to be satisfied. Needing that kill some would call scoreherding. Im not talklking about the one and done guiys Im talking about someone that comes down and gives it a go. Forcing them to break out and boogie should be its own reward if it truely was 'all about the fight'
it is....that don't mean I cant laugh at them when they call running "combat"
if they at least tried and realized it wasnt gonna happen then leave, and dont try to pick shortly after....I have no problem with at all.....hell I don't care how anyone flies but I do love this game and try to show people where the most adrenaline pumpin fun is to be had....it certainly aint nosing down and running as soon as you loose advantage.....
every fight I go into I have full intention of living through.... I fight my arse off every sortie......and then tards who nose down and run to ACK/friends call that running Combat....pfft....... or try to compare this to how they did it in the real world........if this was the real world I would want a 51 and stay as fast as possible run to fight another day.......except this isn't the real world hell we are not even replaying WW2 like we do in FSO.....get in there and fight I say.......and if you are a running I want to live at all costs type player.....don't for one second think that you are evolved in "Combat" when you nose down and run to friends/ACK or just to get away.....at that point you are running from combat not engaging in it.
if you look at my rank.....do you really see a "scorepotato" seriously........
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you would lose that bet. :aok
1-I never disengage from a fight once I start no matter what I am up against or how many...the only time I do disengage I am bingo ammo/fuel or have to avoid the nme's friends and merge with the other nme....FACT
Then you are telling me that you NEVER commit to a turn fight with a brew or a zeke unless you are feeling suicidal or you know they are such poor pilots that you are guaranteed a win? And you have never disengaged from such a fight even when it meant dieing?
Watch out, you're being set up here :devil
2-Using your planes strengths against your nme is a good thing..... I don't care if a 51 BnZ's the crap outta me as long as he tries to actually fight, I never said one must be in a "turn" fight to be fighting......
Good, clarification. I agree. And when I'm flying from a slower more maneuverable A/C I feel the same way.
people just don't like being called out on their lame game play, and I am not sorry but I will always call it the way I see it....if you are in a 51....190..ECT ECT..and all you can do is a couple lame no maneuver HO passes climb 5k away and come back and HO with no maneuvers......your game play is lame...
I agree completely, but I think the devil is in the details. You, like most people, will always see things from your perspective and not consider the dozen possible factors the other guy might be considering.
I have a story, but for the record, in a 51, I will stay and fight as long as I have fuel, I have energy, the odds are acceptable (number of enemy or possibility for intrusions), etc. I agree with your general idea of a "real fight."
One of the most memorable fights I have ever been in was in Air Warrior. Me in a pony v Murdr in 38. I knew it was him. Murdr has always been dangerous in the 38, but I was not afraid to give him a fight, I just didn't want to give him an easy kill. So I engaged and after a few turns he had gotten to the point where he was coming around on my six. The pony cannot turn with a 38 with equal pilots. So I friggen ran. :D er extended. I think the first time it was about 2k before I turned back in.
The pony cannot outclimb a 38 in that short span of time either and if it does, it is a barely noticeable gain. The time it took me to get a 2k separation was enough to make anyone call me a runner. I had no intention of disengaging, but neither was I going to turn back in before my pony had enough energy to make a few turns without bleeding so much energy that I would die. So I turned back in and we went at it again. Same thing happened. After a few turns I didn't have the E to continue turning with him and I turned tail again.
Then came back. I think we did that about 4 or 5 times. I think my EXTENDING got longer and longer. Each "fight" I stayed to the very last second that pony could stay in the fight and survive. I won that fight, not because I out turned him in my pony, I won because I baited him into trying to save his energy for the run he knew I was going to make. At higher speeds, the pony has similar turn to the 38 and I got into one of his first turns and came out on top.
Most call that running, I was doing exactly as you stated, using the strengths of my ride to their best advantage.
If someone is chasing you and they can out turn you easily, you cannot turn back into them with a pony without about 2k separation or you're still turning when they catch you, plus you have bled a third of your E to do it. I think it took a good 2 to 4 minutes to get enough separation that I could turn back into him with something that resembled fighting speed when we merged again. He must have been cussing.
I do the same thing with a 38 if fighting a better turning plane. I will run and turn to engage as soon as I have the energy to do MORE than just go head on with the guy. I want enough energy to make at least a couple turns after we merge. And again, as I said it takes time to get that kind of energy and proper separation if they are chasing you.
If the shoe is on the other foot and my plane is the one that has the better turn, I chase him relentlessly. That is the nature of those advantages and it will never change and you will likely always think the other guy is a runner.
If you chase him for ten minutes and nothing, he is a runner. But it also depends on the top speeds of both planes. If you are in a 84 and me in a pony, the speed is close and it will take longer for me to get the separation I need to turn and fight with any chance of ACTUALLY fighting you again. If I've been running for 10 minutes and you are still 800 off my six, you're too dam close and if I try to turn and fight at that moment, and you are any good, then Im probably in trouble.
and there is big difference in a K4 using his climb to rope a guy..... then a 51(or any speed demon) running to ACK or friends as soon as he loses advantage...if you cant see the difference in that....well then I have no more to say to you.....for you are lost already.
Who said anything about running to ack or friends. Of course that's lame if it's a one on one and there was no good reason for it.
If a K4 driver is incapable of staying in a turn fight and winning, what does he do? He runs. The only difference is, even a decent k4 driver will know that he can outclimb his oponent so he runs UP. And not exactly away from the opponent, but he will stay up and over the opponent. Now he has you trapped, but no one ever calls that running because he is still close. The pony can rarely get an advantage like that after blowing E in a turn fight. It's harder to fight a pony than a k4 or an 84 for that matter.
and just a bit of advice...........before you make a "bet" you should know what you are betting against. :aok
I know you don't go around committing suicide all day against zekes or brews in your ki. And from what I've seen you say, you're all about the fight and you will engage a zeke or Brew in a turn fight just as you would anyone else.
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I used to see P-51's and Go for them.
I can't now......
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Then you are telling me that you NEVER commit to a turn fight with a brew or a zeke unless you are feeling suicidal or you know they are such poor pilots that you are guaranteed a win? And you have never disengaged from such a fight even when it meant dieing?...
Watch out, you're being set up here :devil
Good, clarification. I agree. And when I'm flying from a slower more maneuverable A/C I feel the same way.
I agree completely, but I think the devil is in the details. You, like most people, will always see things from your perspective and not consider the dozen possible factors the other guy might be considering.
I have a story, but for the record, in a 51, I will stay and fight as long as I have fuel, I have energy, the odds are acceptable (number of enemy or possibility for intrusions), etc. I agree with your general idea of a "real fight."
One of the most memorable fights I have ever been in was in Air Warrior. Me in a pony v Murdr in 38. I knew it was him. Murdr has always been dangerous in the 38, but I was not afraid to give him a fight, I just didn't want to give him an easy kill. So I engaged and after a few turns he had gotten to the point where he was coming around on my six. The pony cannot turn with a 38 with equal pilots. So I friggen ran. :D er extended. I think the first time it was about 2k before I turned back in.
The pony cannot outclimb a 38 in that short span of time either and if it does, it is a barely noticeable gain. The time it took me to get a 2k separation was enough to make anyone call me a runner. I had no intention of disengaging, but neither was I going to turn back in before my pony had enough energy to make a few turns without bleeding so much energy that I would die. So I turned back in and we went at it again. Same thing happened. After a few turns I didn't have the E to continue turning with him and I turned tail again.
Then came back. I think we did that about 4 or 5 times. I think my EXTENDING got longer and longer. Each "fight" I stayed to the very last second that pony could stay in the fight and survive. I won that fight, not because I out turned him in my pony, I won because I baited him into trying to save his energy for the run he knew I was going to make. At higher speeds, the pony has similar turn to the 38 and I got into one of his first turns and came out on top.
Most call that running, I was doing exactly as you stated, using the strengths of my ride to their best advantage.
If someone is chasing you and they can out turn you easily, you cannot turn back into them with a pony without about 2k separation or you're still turning when they catch you, plus you have bled a third of your E to do it. I think it took a good 2 to 4 minutes to get enough separation that I could turn back into him with something that resembled fighting speed when we merged again. He must have been cussing.
I do the same thing with a 38 if fighting a better turning plane. I will run and turn to engage as soon as I have the energy to do MORE than just go head on with the guy. I want enough energy to make at least a couple turns after we merge. And again, as I said it takes time to get that kind of energy and proper separation if they are chasing you.
If the shoe is on the other foot and my plane is the one that has the better turn, I chase him relentlessly. That is the nature of those advantages and it will never change and you will likely always think the other guy is a runner.
If you chase him for ten minutes and nothing, he is a runner. But it also depends on the top speeds of both planes. If you are in a 84 and me in a pony, the speed is close and it will take longer for me to get the separation I need to turn and fight with any chance of ACTUALLY fighting you again. If I've been running for 10 minutes and you are still 800 off my six, you're too dam close and if I try to turn and fight at that moment, and you are any good, then Im probably in trouble.
Who said anything about running to ack or friends. Of course that's lame if it's a one on one and there was no good reason for it.
If a K4 driver is incapable of staying in a turn fight and winning, what does he do? He runs. The only difference is, even a decent k4 driver will know that he can outclimb his oponent so he runs UP. And not exactly away from the opponent, but he will stay up and over the opponent. Now he has you trapped, but no one ever calls that running because he is still close. The pony can rarely get an advantage like that after blowing E in a turn fight. It's harder to fight a pony than a k4 or an 84 for that matter.
I know you don't go around committing suicide all day against zekes or brews in your ki. And from what I've seen you say, you're all about the fight and you will engage a zeke or Brew in a turn fight just as you would anyone else.
unless I am bingo ammo or fuel I do not disengage.and never have I disengaged because of too many nme.......being set up how can that be....so you seen me leaving a fight area....or what ever.....you have no clue what may have transpired before hand some days I am on and actually get a bunch of the gang before I die...so if I am out of ammo obviously I am gonna go home.
I fight what ever I may happen across....simple....ask anyone who really knows me...many here do......
I could post film after film of hord fighting lonewolf..... its pretty much all I have done since tour 52....most are just me dieing..but some are real nail biters when I have killed a couple out of 5 - 10 people and I am still alive 10 minutes later :D
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All ive read is me me me, i dont like how u fly, ponies always run.
Play the game your way and leave it be.
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unless I am bingo ammo or fuel I do not disengage.and never have I disengaged because of too many nme.......being set up how can that be....so you seen me leaving a fight area....or what ever.....you have no clue what may have transpired before hand some days I am on and actually get a bunch of the gang before I die...so if I am out of ammo obviously I am gonna go home.
I fight what ever I may happen across....simple....ask anyone who really knows me...many here do......
I could post film after film of hord fighting lonewolf..... its pretty much all I have done since tour 52....most are just me dieing..but some are real nail biters when I have killed a couple out of 5 - 10 people and I am still alive 10 minutes later :D
You misunderstand. No, I never saw you run.
You said it yourself. you will engage anyone anytime. That was what I was getting at. I have flown the same way, and enjoy the rush of multiple enemy. I have the same instinct to push the limits and see how far I go.
I also like a good one on one with any aircraft v any aircraft. That being said, I know that Ki84 can go a few turns with a zeke or a brew in the right circumstances.
And because I get how you fly, I know you don't jump into turn fights with Brews or Zekes to give up an easy kill and if after a couple of turns you don't get a shot, you don't just lay down and die because you're too much of a man to "EXTEND" a little before re-engaging.
I'm not trying to insult, I'm just saying, no one engages a better turning plane and just lays down when the zeke they engaged starts to come around on their six. EVERYONE runs some times. The things that determine how much or how long, are skill, aircraft performance, and the amount of chicken in them. Obviously, like you say, some have MORE col. sanders than others.
If you extended, even a little, you disengaged.
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You misunderstand. No, I never saw you run.
You said it yourself. you will engage anyone anytime. That was what I was getting at. I have flown the same way, and enjoy the rush of multiple enemy. I have the same instinct to push the limits and see how far I go.
I also like a good one on one with any aircraft v any aircraft. That being said, I know that Ki84 can go a few turns with a zeke or a brew in the right circumstances.
And because I get how you fly, I know you don't jump into turn fights with Brews or Zekes to give up an easy kill and if after a couple of turns you don't get a shot, you don't just lay down and die because you're too much of a man to "EXTEND" a little before re-engaging.
I'm not trying to insult, I'm just saying, no one engages a better turning plane and just lays down when the zeke they engaged starts to come around on their six. EVERYONE runs some times. The things that determine how much or how long, are skill, aircraft performance, and the amount of chicken in them. Obviously, like you say, some have MORE col. sanders than others.
If you extended, even a little, you disengaged.
I disagree (who woulda guessed haha)
seriously though.....I see what you are saying...but you are forgetting intent......the guy who is roping cons is intent on killing them..... he is engaging them, his nose being pointed up does not mean he disengaged them...when I merge with someone my nose is not pointed right AT them....I am still engaging them.....a BnZ player that hits the deck to get away from a death his "intent" is not to engage but to save his cartoon life.....
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I disagree (who woulda guessed haha)
seriously though.....I see what you are saying...but you are forgetting intent......the guy who is roping cons is intent on killing them..... he is engaging them, his nose being pointed up does not mean he disengaged them...when I merge with someone my nose is not pointed right AT them....I am still engaging them.....a BnZ player that hits the deck to get away from a death his "intent" is not to engage but to save his cartoon life.....
Isn't climbing in a plane with a better climb rate than the enemy 'running' vertically instead of horizontally? Vertically or horizontally if you "intend" to re-engage I'm not seeing the difference. :salute
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Isn't climbing in a plane with a better climb rate than the enemy 'running' vertically instead of horizontally? Vertically or horizontally if you "intend" to re-engage I'm not seeing the difference. :salute
you cant see the difference because of your mind set......everyone is different and thinks in there own way, I chalk it up to that.
he is not running up he is roping....the other way he is running to save a life...how hard is it :headscratch:
one is to save his life
one is to kill the nme
I guess I like being simple :aok
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<S> Muzik, long time, no see.
I'm not trying to insult, I'm just saying, no one engages a better turning plane and just lays down when the zeke they engaged starts to come around on their six.
:uhoh I don't feel comfortable running away if I have chosen to engage in a close-in manoeuvring fight with a Zero and he gets my six. Then I either think he's earned it or I have fluffed it and deserve to 'die'. I fight to the bitter end. I suppose that makes me pretty weird.
If you extended, even a little, you disengaged.
I agree with Ink that the intention is significant. Today I had a fight with a Brewster, a P-51D and a P-38 simultaneously. I moved away at the start of the engagement, not because I was trying to run but to make a small lateral separation between the two fast and the more turny bird. I think this is justifiably my prerogative since I was attacked by three. Running or climbing away never entered my mind, I wanted to fight. At several moments two out of the three were firing at me at the same time, however I managed to prevail. The P-51D survived and decided to disengage and move away. I flew home missing a small number of unimportant parts. Salutes were exchanged and that was that.
I make this statement without 'bigging myself up', bragging or putting other players down, this is just an insight into shida's perverse world of 'have fun trying something hard because no one actually dies'.
Give it a try!
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Can extending be considered horizontal roping if the persone thats extending comes back?
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I disagree (who woulda guessed haha)
seriously though.....I see what you are saying...but you are forgetting intent......the guy who is roping cons is intent on killing them..... he is engaging them, his nose being pointed up does not mean he disengaged them...when I merge with someone my nose is not pointed right AT them....I am still engaging them.....a BnZ player that hits the deck to get away from a death his "intent" is not to engage but to save his cartoon life.....
The more I fight in the MA, the more I see the futility of trying to define what "running" is. I sat in a PT boat and watched a P-51D attempt to BnZ a Seafire.... over and over this guy came in and couldn't make the shot. He ran out of icon range, and then came back... eventually the Seafire ran out of gas, the P-51 tried to HO and of course lost. The pilot then said "You kept running to your PT boat" (I never hit him once). That was his come back for the "fight".
*I* would consider that lame... in a 1v1... this was a decent pilot in the 51, not a newb just trying to learn the game. Last night I spent 30 minutes trying to engage a P-47N in my Ki-84... he was too scared to actually engage me, and any time I cut the corner when he tried to go in on a lower con, he just extended his dive. The last part of the "fight" was me climbing after him north of 30k... because when I fly the Ki-84 with my Inkskin, well, I don't plan on coming home. After he clearly wasn't interested in fighting even on his home turf (I even feinted turns a few times to see if he'd turn and dive) I finally said screw it and just slow dived knowing he'd invariably overshoot. He did, but in flying BACK I ran into his buddies... there were 4 of them total now, at least that I could see... a Yak, a Corsair, A 205, and the orbital 47. I went in on the 205, they checked him, he broke, and I was too fast (trying to stay ahead of the 47 now turning back) to catch him. The corsair overshot and I fired but he was under the nose and the Yak ended me.
I said "awesome job, guys" on 200. The IMMEDIATE response was the Yak (who'd killed me... thankfully not the 47) saying "So what it was 3 v 1 (it was actually 4) I've been dealing with that all night". I was genuinely congratulating them, mainly because they covered their wingman (or at least he was flying with them) who would have been dead ~4 seconds after he got his check (getting valuable checks seems kind of rare some nights). The point here being that the immediate assumption is that anything said on 200 is either a whine, a slam, or sarcastic. Why are we here, now? Because of the elite bad tulips out there who have cultivated a pissing contest mentality.
Yeah, I got ganged, whatever... I chose my fight, just like I chose my plane. It's hugely frustrating to go from a plane that can run down most things to one that cannot. The balance is there though, superb climb, better guns, far superior acceleration, hugely better turn rate/radius over a good speed range... it's a great "fighter" but it's not a great "killer". The La-7, which I refuse to fly for various reasons, is probably the best low-alt "killer" in the game... but I'm definitely torn between the Bravo and the Ki-84 as I like them both for what they do. I can FORCE a fight in the Bravo... the Ki-84 is more situational depending upon adversaries.
The real rub, and tell-tale sign of b/s, is the fact that I can pick the hell out of someone in a Ki-84 and people will salute or say GJ... I can pull an amazing tracking shot at high speed in a Bravo and best case nothing, worst case some sob story pm or gemstone on 200.
So, last night, Pand must have been drinking because he ups a Ki-84... to "fight"... at a field with higher cons. And what happens? Some jerkwad in a Ki-84 at like 16k picks him. How am I supposed to drag him out of his roundly derided "pick and run pony" with that going on?
The argument about "runners"... people that literally make one pass and haul ass, only to come back 5 minutes later to do the same thing... that applies. The problem is, I see kill after kill in super low altitude turning engagements, made by mustangs of either flavor, and it's the same old b/s sob stories.
Lauded 109 pilot last night gets himself wacked in a turning engagement with a pony, no salute no nothing.
There is a certain community member who was on an extended state-funded hiatus... a legendary man, whose "Aces of Aces High Video" I have watched twice... and all I have seen is little girl whines about "boring fights" when he gets shot down.
What I have started to discover supports a theory that there are a great deal of players who are good or great 1 v 1, and either have no friends or simply can't hang in a combined arms theatre. (This is certainly not directed at you, Inksom)
People that disparage "The War" like it's not what the majority of the MA is doing, but rather some infantile attempt by those who cannot hack in a furball to find some shred of emergent gameplay that they can eek out a scrap of sense of achievement. People can argue all they want about how "The game is about combat, not capturing bases". The GAME will immediately call you a liar by gently urging you "Base under attack" (Or, even better, Scramble Scramble Enemies Inbound!). What it DOESN'T say is "Awesome furball forming! Bring an approved plane!"
I don't know ANYONE who doesn't like a furball. Guys that can survive a furball are an impressive lot to say the least, but it's visceral and exciting, and even a turd like myself can get a kill or two in one from time to time.
What's REALLY impressive to me and many others is watching a well executed attack on a defended base with a combined air and ground assault. Guys that can evade the La-7s to successfully place ordnance on a hangar or enemy tank, and then immediately turn to engage airborne defenders in a plane that is not dominant in a low turning engagement.
Bringing together a motley crew of guys from all over the world with all their little idiosyncratic baggage, egos, and love of the fruit of the vine to coordinate, execute, and successfully accomplish a combined arms assault is the stuff of legends, the aggregate accomplishment far greater than the sum of individual exploits that occurred along the way.
Pigeonholing one's self into any one role other than for enough time to become proficient or perhaps excellent at it, denying one's self the rewards of teamwork that can be derived from the staggering variety of tasks and accomplishments available to all players... this is folly. Aces High is, through all of its faults whether perceived or real, a shining example of something few if any other multi-player arenas still in existence have managed to achieve: A robust ecosystem, accessible to all, with the various learning curves enjoying a rather balanced effort to reward ratio, the result of which is an environment that transcends the cookie cutter lens flaring grindfests that everything else online has become.
Finding a fight is great... finding a fight where you can do what you want to do while simultaneously supporting the efforts of the team is not just the greater challenge, the greater glory, and the greater requirement for a wide spectrum of skills, but also available 7 days a week in the struggle to dominate the Main Arena.
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you cant see the difference because of your mind set......everyone is different and thinks in there own way, I chalk it up to that.
he is not running up he is roping....the other way he is running to save a life...how hard is it :headscratch:
one is to save his life
one is to kill the nme
I guess I like being simple :aok
Much of my "running" depends on the enemy in tow. This usually includes them chasing me, continuing horizontally for a bit (as most a/c will bleed energy faster than the 51), and then easily working into a vertical climb. If they follow it's a classic rope a dope. If they don't then it's a yo-yo in for the re-engagement.
This is using my speed to equalize/overtake the enemy's energy with my plane's advantages. :aok
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Can extending be considered horizontal roping if the persone thats extending comes back?
Keep in mind that the fact that our turns in a mustang must naturally be with energy conservation in mind, and therefore much more graceful and wide, is lost on many who consider any separation in the horizontal to be "running".
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The more I fight in the MA, the more I see the futility of trying to define what "running" is... *snip*
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrech7SQPj1qiz3j8o1_500.gif)
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Jumped into a P51D last night because it was in a mission. Don't usually fly the birds. I was really impressed just how well it handled down low. Only got two kills but what was impressive is how many attacks I avoided. It maneuvers much better than I remember. Probably should have had more kills but my tracers are off. Doesn't mean much in my F4U1A because I just know how the plane shoots. In the P51 however I wasn't sure.
Now I'm wondering why do so many p51 pilots run. That first turn in a p51 is nothing short of fantastic. When pitted against my F4U1A it's better at the first turn but the second turn maybe not so much.
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Jumped into a P51D last night because it was in a mission. Don't usually fly the birds. I was really impressed just how well it handled down low. Only got two kills but what was impressive is how many attacks I avoided. It maneuvers much better than I remember. Probably should have had more kills but my tracers are off. Doesn't mean much in my F4U1A because I just know how the plane shoots. In the P51 however I wasn't sure.
Now I'm wondering why do so many p51 pilots run. That first turn in a p51 is nothing short of fantastic. When pitted against my F4U1A it's better at the first turn but the second turn maybe not so much.
Depending on the speed entering, you can get a solid 360-450 before you have to start looking at options.
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Who here has engaged when they had no ammo and didn't have to engage?
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Who here has engaged when they had no ammo and didn't have to engage?
Raises hand. If you mean I was not under a threat, however a squaddie was. :O
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Who here has engaged when they had no ammo and didn't have to engage?
A couple of times, to save a friend. :)
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Who here has engaged when they had no ammo and didn't have to engage?
I did that recently during a vTard attack. Was going to land, completely out of ammo, but engaged one to clear somebody else.
I saddled him, and had to get inside of 200 before he realized I was there. Stayed slightly out of phase to make him think I was maneuvering for a shot. Eventually he stalled and augered from his stick jerking. It was a moment I will continue to enjoy recalling.
We were both in Ponies, in fact.
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Yup. That sort of thing. Fun to cause a red to break in a panic when you're completely toothless. Even better if you cause the guy to auger.
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I disagree (who woulda guessed haha)
seriously though.....I see what you are saying...but you are forgetting intent......the guy who is roping cons is intent on killing them..... he is engaging them, his nose being pointed up does not mean he disengaged them...when I merge with someone my nose is not pointed right AT them....I am still engaging them.....a BnZ player that hits the deck to get away from a death his "intent" is not to engage but to save his cartoon life.....
You're right, the guy roping is intent on killing them. If he came in high and all he did was stay up there and BnZ, then as you said, he stayed engaged. He didn't run, he was already up there. Then the worst you could say was he was timid and wouldn't fully commit. Then you have to ask what was he not committing to? A turn fight with his pony v a brewster or his pony v a FW A8? You can call him a coward in the second case, not the first.
If it was a pony v a ki84 and knowing the ki will out turn the pony a good deal of the time, and the pony dives in, goes a few turns with the Ki but breaks off and goes for some separation, you can't call him a coward. The Ki is a better turning plane, I think it out climbs him and is close in speed. He took a risk, it would be stupidity for him to continue to turn with a Ki.
I disagree with the going for the deck part. I have done this many times, only because it was the best opportunity to get some speed and maybe separation. Sometimes it didn't provide any separation, we kept going at it in the dive, but I had no intention of breaking off. Sometimes it was a stalemated fight and it needed to be reset.
Sometimes when a guy would come around on my six, I dove for the deck with no intention of letting HIM get away. Then I forced him to overshoot when he thought I was going to run.
Bottom line is, if you are turning with another plane and you come out of those turns whether it's by using superior climb, going level or diving away, then you have disengaged. I admit to disengaging profusely. Even if you somehow psyched him out and he went one way and you went another, you were disengaged. If you did it on purpose it was an intentional disengagement, and the fact that you intend on reengaging doesn't change that you were disengaged.
To quote the best fighter pilot of all time, they called him Viper. He taught Maverick, "better to retire and save your aircraft than push a bad position." I am not timid. My mood and circumstances determine how much risk I will take. There have to be other circumstances to make me run like you are describing and I agree with you in general. I just think there is a lot more grey area in there that you don't acknowledge.
<S> Muzik, long time, no see.
:uhoh I don't feel comfortable running away if I have chosen to engage in a close-in manoeuvring fight with a Zero and he gets my six. Then I either think he's earned it or I have fluffed it and deserve to 'die'. I fight to the bitter end. I suppose that makes me pretty weird.
I agree with Ink that the intention is significant. Today I had a fight with a Brewster, a P-51D and a P-38 simultaneously. I moved away at the start of the engagement, not because I was trying to run but to make a small lateral separation between the two fast and the more turny bird. I think this is justifiably my prerogative since I was attacked by three. Running or climbing away never entered my mind, I wanted to fight. At several moments two out of the three were firing at me at the same time, however I managed to prevail. The P-51D survived and decided to disengage and move away. I flew home missing a small number of unimportant parts. Salutes were exchanged and that was that.
I make this statement without 'bigging myself up', bragging or putting other players down, this is just an insight into shida's perverse world of 'have fun trying something hard because no one actually dies'.
Give it a try!
<S> Shida, good to see you around.
But with all due respect, I call baloney. So maybe I should have been more specific. Nobody is balls out 100% of the time. I believe you do fly that way. I have done the same many times. But I am not like that 100% of the time and I don't believe anyone else is either.
I have seen you go up against Brews and zekes in the DA many times and I know there were plenty of people in there, that because of their character, you would not allow to take you like that simply as a matter of pride. We chose our fights and styles according to our moods. Sometimes according to who we were fighting.
As for intent, you are both right. Intent is significant, but you can't tell intent except in some of the most obvious cases. Neither of you would know my intent when I am diving for the deck, because my intent every time I do that (barring other circumstances) is to force an overshoot if you chase me or turn back into you if you don't.
<S> to both of you, I know you got balls, never thought otherwise.
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A couple of times, to save a friend. :)
All the time :)
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Joined the game and flew a spitty for about 6 months to a year mostly while trying different planes. A friend said I was able to bring the moxie when I used the P51D and gave it a real try for about a year and still sucked at the game, not that I don't now. Really got into the history of WWII aviation over the years and talked to the wifes grandfather who used to fly the Catalina and had a lot to say about the game as well as the planes (real life) and started reading more. Read Shaw mostly and some other authors. Now after so many years I can't put the p51D down. I feel out of control in other planes. I try and fight (still completly suck at the game) and only land 2 or 3 at a time. I have fun doing it and usually have to hit the head after the second kill after so much rum. I just wish we had the Chuck Yeager skin of all in the game with Glamorous Glenn II. Love the plane and love seeing another p51D's co-alt co-e. Now if I could just get past that completly sucking at the game stage i'd be good to go. :lol :salute
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All the time :)
I would do it more if I flew solo less often. :)
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Who here has engaged when they had no ammo and didn't have to engage?
I do it all the time if a squadmate or a friendly is in trouble. Its amazing how many bad guys you can scatter with an aggressive dry run.
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I got a better contest, whoever posts the best film of a P51 dogfight. :) win or lose, doesn't matter.
This was a nice fight. I could always count on Steve, Agent, Sunka, and a few others to give me a run for my money in a pony.
Of course, I was flying the "F4U-1A o' doom" so the conclusion was inevitable...
He engaged, kept his advantage and the pressure on without heading for the horizon, and pounced in for the kill when he had me where he thought he wanted me... I'd even wager he "called off" the LA7 and maybe even the spit so that he could keep it a clean 1 v 1 fight...
All the makings of a good fight.
I also love how he called me "lucky", because it tells me his mind was in the right place. I think good pilots are always surprised/shocked when they lose (even if they're in a P51)...
I almost hate to show it, as it may highlight the futility of fighting in a P51?
I bet the Spit was drooling about the easy, on the deck F4U kill he was presented with :lol
I suppose I shouldn't have equalized our E-states like I did, but when I hit the point where I could have bailed I did turn back for him...
Spits shouldn't mess with F4U's either :D
http://www.4shared.com/file/vM2VjS0t/agent360_p51_0001.html
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All the time :)
Maybe if you didn't steal all the kills 2 minutes into a sweep you would HAVE some ammo let to clear my ass!
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This was a nice fight. I could always count on Steve, Agent, Sunka, and a few others to give me a run for my money in a pony.
Of course, I was flying the "F4U-1A o' doom" so the conclusion was inevitable...
He engaged, kept his advantage and the pressure on without heading for the horizon, and pounced in for the kill when he had me where he thought he wanted me... I'd even wager he "called off" the LA7 and maybe even the spit so that he could keep it a clean 1 v 1 fight...
All the makings of a good fight.
I also love how he called me "lucky", because it tells me his mind was in the right place. I think good pilots are always surprised/shocked when they lose (even if they're in a P51)...
I almost hate to show it, as it may highlight the futility of fighting in a P51?
I bet the Spit was drooling about the easy, on the deck F4U kill he was presented with :lol
I suppose I shouldn't have equalized our E-states like I did, but when I hit the point where I could have bailed I did turn back for him...
Spits shouldn't mess with F4U's either :D
http://www.4shared.com/file/vM2VjS0t/agent360_p51_0001.html
There's no such thing as futility to fighting in a P51. it probably wasnt your intent (at least I'll give you the benefit of a doubt) but you make it sound like the only thing a pony is good for is hit and run.
Didn't watch your video mainly because I'm not at a computer with a film viewer, but I assume that the P51 you fought tried to turn fight your F4U, which I guess is okay until you hit 250mph, at which point you wouldn't catch me dead turning with your corsair. A fight like that is all about knowing the plane your enemy is flying, and he either didnt, or didn't care.
Wish I was home right now, just last night I got into a great dogfight with a spit16 that came at me with a little more E than I had. Surprised the crap outa him when he came around from his initial overshoot to see me barrel-rolling over the top of him getting ready to put the guns on his six. In the end he got his plane down engine-out with a punctured fuel tank and a swiss-cheese-like airframe, but it was a good fight none-the-less.
I may just post the video when I get home.
The real rub, and tell-tale sign of b/s, is the fact that I can pick the hell out of someone in a Ki-84 and people will salute or say GJ... I can pull an amazing tracking shot at high speed in a Bravo and best case nothing, worst case some sob story pm or gemstone on 200.
Lauded 109 pilot last night gets himself wacked in a turning engagement with a pony, no salute no nothing.
A few days ago I headed back to a friendly base in my Delta Pony when I got jumped by an at least semi-well-known 109 pilot with a higher E advantage. He flew over me and did a Split S trying to get back on my tail, which I immediately reversed and got on his 6. after about 10 seconds of high-speed turning he blacked out and went level, giving me an easy kill. Did I get a salute for engaging and beating his 109 in my Pony? No, I got an excuse in 200 that something someone else said in the 200 channel made him laugh and he lost his concentration.
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Eventually he stalled and augered from his stick jerking. It was a moment I will continue to enjoy recalling.
We were both in Ponies, in fact.
Pony-on-Pony-killing...whatta waste. :neener:
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There's no such thing as futility to fighting in a P51. it probably wasnt your intent (at least I'll give you the benefit of a doubt) but you make it sound like the only thing a pony is good for is hit and run.
Didn't watch your video mainly because I'm not at a computer with a film viewer, but I assume that the P51 you fought tried to turn fight your F4U, which I guess is okay until you hit 250mph, at which point you wouldn't catch me dead turning with your corsair. A fight like that is all about knowing the plane your enemy is flying, and he either didnt, or didn't care.
Sure, I was a bit tongue-in-cheek...
However, I'd consider the P51 pilot in question to be very accomplished in probably any ol' plane he cares to fly, and even in a P51 I'm sure he was/is a serious "threat" to almost any pilot in the MA's. He's the type of pilot who's going to do better than the vast majority whether he flies the P51 to it's well-known advantages, or decides to transition into the more "dangerous" realm of really "wringing it out".
In this film, he maintained an advantage and pressured me until he felt he could transition his E into a position for a kill-shot. I wouldn't say that "not knowing" or "not caring" would be accurate assessments. "Calculated, aggressive gamble" might be more accurate.
When it comes to the "futility" of fighting in the P51...
It's not a film of a "fantastic fight" by any stretch, but then again I can only think of a handful of times where I was equally or more pressured than that by a P51.
In the 10 or so years I was flying regularly, I'd easily put this pilot (specifically flying the P51) into the "top 50" most threatening pilots against my corsair. "Top 50" is probably inaccurate as well... Top 20 maybe? I can't think of too many other pilots flying P51's in a 1v1 that I would consider to be more likely to shoot me down, and I bumped into a lot of them over the years, flying a myriad of styles/strategies.
Can you "wring out" the P51 and do well? Sure, some guys really can. They're in the VAST minority of pilots though (<1% of the pilots in the MA?). It can be done (and I've seen it), but it's far from easy. For most pilots "wringing it out" in a P51 isn't a great strategy. It's going to be far easier for them to be successful flying in a much more "safe" manner.
When it comes to arguing against the futility of fighting in a P51, it's probably a poor argument for me to show a very good pilot flying a plane very well, starting from a position of advantage, and losing... It kind of hints that it would be extremely difficult for an "average Joe" to succeed in similar circumstances.
It would be a far better example if you posted your film of being successful in a P51 against an advantaged, skillful pilot in a tough-to-beat plane like the Spit16. Of course, the victory over the SPit16 would need to include a skillful pilot who's flying it well to be of real value...
I think it's also telling how comparatively few "P51 pilots" get to be known as "really good". And how few "really good" films there are of pilot's winning in (or being beaten by) P51's. It's a rare P51 pilot indeed (from what I've seen) that can begin in a disadvantaged position in a fight, reverse that position, and come out the victor against a wide range of pilots, in a wide range of planes, and in a wide range of circumstances.
By far, the advantage the P51 has is its ability to start well out of icon range (or at least out or harm's way), quickly close the distance to its target once inside icon range, and then quickly get back out of icon range (or at least out of danger). It's something the P51 can do better than most planes in AH, and doubtlessly the tactic that earns it the most kills overall. It's an effective tactic, and arguably one of the strongest cards in the P51's "deck", but not a tactic that will ever earn a pilot in AH any acclaim...
It's nothing against dedicated P51 pilot's. It's just a difficult plane to earn respect in...
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Sure, I was a bit tongue-in-cheek...
However, I'd consider the P51 pilot in question to be very accomplished in probably any ol' plane he cares to fly, and even in a P51 I'm sure he was/is a serious "threat" to almost any pilot in the MA's. He's the type of pilot who's going to do better than the vast majority whether he flies the P51 to it's well-known advantages, or decides to transition into the more "dangerous" realm of really "wringing it out".
In this film, he maintained an advantage and pressured me until he felt he could transition his E into a position for a kill-shot. I wouldn't say that "not knowing" or "not caring" would be accurate assessments. "Calculated, aggressive gamble" might be more accurate.
When it comes to the "futility" of fighting in the P51...
It's not a film of a "fantastic fight" by any stretch, but then again I can only think of a handful of times where I was equally or more pressured than that by a P51.
In the 10 or so years I was flying regularly, I'd easily put this pilot (specifically flying the P51) into the "top 50" most threatening pilots against my corsair. "Top 50" is probably inaccurate as well... Top 20 maybe? I can't think of too many other pilots flying P51's in a 1v1 that I would consider to be more likely to shoot me down, and I bumped into a lot of them over the years, flying a myriad of styles/strategies.
Can you "wring out" the P51 and do well? Sure, some guys really can. They're in the VAST minority of pilots though (<1% of the pilots in the MA?). It can be done (and I've seen it), but it's far from easy. For most pilots "wringing it out" in a P51 isn't a great strategy. It's going to be far easier for them to be successful flying in a much more "safe" manner.
When it comes to arguing against the futility of fighting in a P51, it's probably a poor argument for me to show a very good pilot flying a plane very well, starting from a position of advantage, and losing... It kind of hints that it would be extremely difficult for an "average Joe" to succeed in similar circumstances.
It would be a far better example if you posted your film of being successful in a P51 against an advantaged, skillful pilot in a tough-to-beat plane like the Spit16. Of course, the victory over the SPit16 would need to include a skillful pilot who's flying it well to be of real value...
I think it's also telling how comparatively few "P51 pilots" get to be known as "really good". And how few "really good" films there are of pilot's winning in (or being beaten by) P51's. It's a rare P51 pilot indeed (from what I've seen) that can begin in a disadvantaged position in a fight, reverse that position, and come out the victor against a wide range of pilots, in a wide range of planes, and in a wide range of circumstances.
By far, the advantage the P51 has is its ability to start well out of icon range (or at least out or harm's way), quickly close the distance to its target once inside icon range, and then quickly get back out of icon range (or at least out of danger). It's something the P51 can do better than most planes in AH, and doubtlessly the tactic that earns it the most kills overall. It's an effective tactic, and arguably one of the strongest cards in the P51's "deck", but not a tactic that will ever earn a pilot in AH any acclaim...
It's nothing against dedicated P51 pilot's. It's just a difficult plane to earn respect in...
I completely agree with you, the 51 is not an easy plane to gain respect in at all.
I will admit that in my situation of reversing on that spit, when I looked back at the video it was a pilot I've never seen before. Does that mean he wasn't a good pilot? No, but the chances were far fewer, and his flying wasn't perfect. My only point about that specific engagement was that I wasn't afraid to at least attempt to go toe to toe with a plane that is supposed to outclass me in a turn fight instead of running from him or giving him an easy kill, and in this situation it worked in my advantage. Granted, the initial reversal was basically handed to me, all it took was a basic understanding of ACM. Had he pushed his spit to the edge of its performance ability, he may have eventually regained an advantage, at which point I would have disengaged and extended to regain some E. please don't misunderstand that as tucking my tail and running home.
In your situation with your p51 opponent, thank u for explaining that more in depth. Taking a gamble with your E like that against an f4u, at least in my experiences, means you are either gonna get that one-chance only perfect shot and kill him, or you are going to miss and your offensive options from there on out are going to be severely lacking, at least against a good f4u pilot. At that point, trying to extend away from the f4u would be futile as it would easily keep up with the pony, and at those low speeds the f4u wins the turn fight too. I guess I would have to really feel out how good the pilot was with the stick in that plane before I took that gamble. Call it timid if you want, I would call it smart flying. I wouldn't have a problem at all staying quick and fighting the f4u BNZ style. You don't have to get low and slow in a 51 in order to be good in it, you just get more recognition for doing it and succeeding. Not to say that people that do it and succeed more often than not don't deserve that recognition, because they definitely do.