Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Triton28 on April 22, 2013, 10:27:38 AM
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Continued from this thread: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,345669.165.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,345669.165.html)
My $1.05:
New players will find the K4 a retarded conglomeration of parts that don't seem to work well together. :bhead
Vets who spend some time to learn the torque and 30mm will find a pure killing machine that ends fights with insane quickness. :joystick: :banana:
I'd say the ENY is about right. :)
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Don't be daft Karnak if K4s were are so much 'pure easymode' why is it that the arena is full of P51s and not K4s?
Mud moving and it is the MUSTANG, it WON THE WAR!!!!
Seriously, the Bf109K-4 is about an 8 on the scale of ease of use. A Spitfire Mk XVI would be a 10. P-51D is probably about an 8 as well.
Hard things would be the Bf109G-6, P-40E and so on.
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Mud moving and it is the MUSTANG, it WON THE WAR!!!!
Seriously, the Bf109K-4 is about an 8 on the scale of ease of use. A Spitfire Mk XVI would be a 10. P-51D is probably about an 8 as well.
Hard things would be the Bf109G-6, P-40E and so on.
I disagree.....none of them are "difficult" to fly...
some are very difficult to hit with...... IE the K4
some are poorly powered/armed so that makes it difficult to get kills.....
some are very responsive do all things well(or most)....are easy to hit with...IE spit 16...LA7....KI84
some have such over powering attributes it makes them easy mode even for noobs ...IE responsiveness of 16...speed of 51.....
thats my take on it
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I disagree.....none of them are "difficult" to fly...
They aren't difficult to to fly. They are difficult to win fights in against typical LWMA opponent aircraft given equal pilots. When speaking of difficulty nobody is really talking about flying, otherwise the Typhoon probably wins the "hardest" prize simply due to torque.
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After the Mossie, the K4 is super easy mode, for sure!
But look, SA is really easy in a K4, while it makes you thinking a lot in a G6. In the other hand, close combat is very easy in a Merlin-Spitfire, medicore in a G6 or K4 and extremely difficult in a 190 or P47.
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The thing about the K-4 is that it gives you a lot of powerful tools to win fights with. It doesn't really have the tool that ultra-noobs rely on, sheer turn rate, but with only a little development beyond that it opens up all sorts of things most enemy fighters can't match.
The P-51D also doesn't have sheer turn rate going for it.
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There is nothing easy about the 109K-4, except that it gets a player where they want to go in one of the quickest ways possible in AH. It is one of the better interceptors in the game. It is not, however, a air superiority fighter, or even a dog fighters per say. It is an interceptor. Sure, there are some players who know the torque and acceleration abilities and how to harness it, but in general it is NOT an easy mode plane.
The best examples of "easy mode" planes are as follows: Spitfire Mk XVI (Spit16), La7, and NiK2. The P51D can also be considered as such for the most part, but the learning curve is very short almost to the point of not worth mentioning. The Spit16, La7, and George are truly "get in and fly and dominate" planes, and shame on any "vet" who takes them in to the virtual skies. ;)
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They aren't difficult to to fly. They are difficult to win fights in against typical LWMA opponent aircraft given equal pilots. When speaking of difficulty nobody is really talking about flying, otherwise the Typhoon probably wins the "hardest" prize simply due to torque.
Typhoon is fablius :joystick:
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I should add that while I don't think the K4 is easy mode, it does lend itself to pilots becoming one trick ponies. When I first started flying AH, probably 90% of K4's killed me by simply going vertical at the merge, chopping throttle, kicking rudder, suddenly ending up nose down WAY before I can get around... boom boom boom... I'm in the tower. That one move was repeated on me over and over until I finally got smart enough to try and not give them that move. Eureka! I suddenly had a bit more success against them.
So I guess if that's all a particular K4 pilot knows how to do, it could be considered easy mode since no other plane that I've seen can dump E that quickly and trade nose to tail that fast.
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There is nothing easy about the 109K-4, except that it gets a player where they want to go in one of the quickest ways possible in AH. It is one of the better interceptors in the game. It is not, however, a air superiority fighter, or even a dog fighters per say. It is an interceptor. Sure, there are some players who know the torque and acceleration abilities and how to harness it, but in general it is NOT an easy mode plane.
The best examples of "easy mode" planes are as follows: Spitfire Mk XVI (Spit16), La7, and NiK2. The P51D can also be considered as such for the most part, but the learning curve is very short almost to the point of not worth mentioning. The Spit16, La7, and George are truly "get in and fly and dominate" planes, and shame on any "vet" who takes them in to the virtual skies. ;)
It can escape from the vast majority of the planeset simply by going up, and has excellent acceleration over most of the set. I can't disagree with you on your 'true easy mode' planes, but the K4 simply isn't that far behind them in terms of ease of use other than gunnery, which IMO is huge.
I think there's an additional category that's worth mentioning when it comes to planes like the K4. To me, they're the ones that take some getting used to, but if you put the time in they have a lot to offer either in their limited type of fight, or in general once you become familiar with them.
A two weeker's not going to jump into them and be a killer, but once you've got your head wrapped around them, they're possible and fairly easy to do well in.
I'm thinking planes like the 109K4, 190D9, the P47D-11/M/N. Put a two weeker in any of them, they're not going to do much. Put in an average dweeb who's been around for 6 months to a year, and if he puts in the time to get comfortable with them, he can use them effectively against pilots of equal or lesser skill.
Then there's the stuff that is actually somewhat difficult to prevail with in the MA's like the P40s, early 109s, etc...
Wiley.
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I have to laugh at this thread...
The plane is just a tool. A good pilot will get the most/best out of his tools. Everything else is just preference or chest thumping. :ahead
And the whole "pilots with equal skill argument".....lol....which is about what 10% of sorties you will run into a pilot that is of comparable skill.
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I have to laugh at this thread...
The plane is just a tool. A good pilot will get the most/best out of his tools. Everything else is just preference or chest thumping. :ahead
And the whole "pilots with equal skill argument".....lol....which is about what 10% of sorties you will run into a pilot that is of comparable skill.
The thread was created to keep Snailman's Megastats thread clean. It sprang up from comments regarding the ENY of the 109's. ENY discussions will almost inevitably come down to how "uber" a given plane is... and if we consider Uber = Easy mode, well...
By the way, why would you rail against chest thumping and then lolz at 90% of pilots being below your skill level? I musta missed something..
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K4 is average in terms of difficulty to fly, there are many easier rides, anything in LW with top line engine performance is always going to have a big advantage as you can't shoot what you can't reach. Of the Late war it would be a toss up between the 38s and the 190s in terms of difficulty in fighting in, easiest plane would be the KI-84 or spitfires to dogfight in, with the KI shaving it with the bigger engine. Oh and hardest plane to fly in game is the Camel F1 :joystick:
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By the way, why would you rail against chest thumping and then lolz at 90% of pilots being below your skill level? I musta missed something..
I actually have to agree with that point. 90% of the time, I find one of two things- I either am noticeably better/in a much better situation than my current opponent, or I am noticeably worse/in a much worse situation than my current opponent.
Very rarely do you wind up in a fair fight, co-E, with a roughly equivalent opponent. 90% is probably a low estimate.
Wiley.
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The K4's not that hard to fly althought it has it's quirks. It's actually not that had to hit with either. I was flying an La-5 the other night and that plane is hard to hit with; harder than the K-4.
The K-4 is a best of all worlds fighter. It can turn with the jacks of all trades well enough to score a killer hit and is as fast or faster than the P-51 depending on alt/WEP. It will outclimb most planes and once you learn to use the torque it can do things others can't.
20 ENY seems high to me. It should be more like 10-15.
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Just watch jo or redbull fly the k4. = easymode.
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I actually have to agree with that point. 90% of the time, I find one of two things- I either am noticeably better/in a much better situation than my current opponent, or I am noticeably worse/in a much worse situation than my current opponent.
Very rarely do you wind up in a fair fight, co-E, with a roughly equivalent opponent. 90% is probably a low estimate.
Wiley.
Oh it may be true... almost no way to tell anyway. I just don't know if you can admonish chest thumping and then thump your own. :headscratch:
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jo/redbull/dolby...and several others have spent hours upon hours in the 109's to get good in them...definately not easy mode but the k4 doesn't warrant a 20eny either. It is a late war ubber machine...10 maybe 15max.
PJ
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109K is not that easy to pick up for a new player and certainly no ENY 5 plane, especially as it basically has no air to ground capability.
But it has tremendous power, making it about the best climber in game anf the fastest prop plane between 8K-24k (and still among the fastest on the deck). The combination of top speed, acceleration and maneuverability is outstanding. It's FAR from being a ENY 20 fighter like the Spit 9. Even the 190D has 15, and that's a fighter with a much more one dimensional kind of performance.
It's ENY should be at 10, which would place it amongst planes like the Typhoon, P-47M, Ta 152H.
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109K imo should 15 ENY.
or unperk the Spit XIV... which is 109K's contemporary and natural opponent.
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Every airplane in this game is 'easy mode,' but the K4 is a monster only for people that fly it a lot. I have seen long term players that love the K4, but if they don't fly it often enough it bites them. That might explain the ENY issue. I'm still not sure how HTC sets ENY, but I have always believed they go by the way it performs in the arenas. If you go by pure performance in the hands of long term users that know the aircrafts limitations and fly it enough to use it well, then of course it will appear to need a lower ENY (I would say 10). I still feel there are a lot of Luftwaffe wannabes that kill themselves in the K4 and help to keep the ENY where it is.
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If you can control the torque of the K4, and learn to 30mm (which never seems to want to shoot where you aim ;) ) then the K4 is just as easy to fly as any other plane. If any of the 109's could be considered "easy mode", then my vote would be the G2. It's maneuverable, quick, fast, has a decent climb rate, and doesn't have the massive torque like the K4 and the 20mm is far easier to aim.
No plane is invincible. You can use any plane to kill any other plane as long as you use your strengths against your opponents weaknesses. That being said, no plane may be invincible, but a good pilot can make it seem it is. So get to reading up on ACM and start getting better! Instead of focusing on flying the one way you're good at, focus on the things you're not good at and get good at them. That's how you make people say "Dang! We can't shoot that guy down!" :aok :salute
15 ENY seems fair for the K4, but I've flown it so much that it just seems easy to fly. I think the torque, 30mm, and the fact that it has no ATG abilities are what puts the K4 at 20 ENY.
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Well, I am hardly a Luftwaffe fan, but jumping from the Mossie to the K-4 the K-4 sure is easier and when I am in the Mossie the K-4 is in the top spot of nonperk fighters I least want to face.
I find the Bf109K-4 to be signifcantly superior to the Spitfire Mk XIV.
I think the torque, 30mm, and the fact that it has no ATG abilities are what puts the K4 at 20 ENY.
The Spitfire Mk XIV has no ATG capability, worse torque, half the WEP and poorer handling, and is slower but it is ENY 5 and perked...
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imo the only easymode plane is the Spit16 (said as someone who flies it almost exclusively)
aside from that, there are no easy planes, only great pilots who make it LOOK easy :salute
k4's don't scare me, until I realise someone like Redbull or Latrobe is flying. Spit16s can be scary (to a noob like me) even when flown by a mediocre pilot
just my opinion ;d
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The Spitfire Mk XIV has no ATG capability, worse torque, half the WEP and poorer handling, and is slower but it is ENY 5 and perked...
I've always wanted to see the 14 unperked and ENY boosted up a bit. That thing is an absolute nightmare to try and control!
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It is not, however, a air superiority fighter, or even a dog fighters per say. It is an interceptor. Sure, there are some players who know the torque and acceleration abilities and how to harness it, but in general it is NOT an easy mode plane.
1) If you put 'per say' at the end of a thought, it means you are covering for a deficiency in the argument - refer to south park for details.
2) The K4 is easy mode, and is a fantastic 'air superiority fighter' - the only drawbacks are fuel (its really not that bad since you still go fast as a banshee on 1.1/1.2 ata) and the 65 shots. But in all other aspects, it is unmatched.
3) Granted, it is not every pilots cup of tea - but there is no denying that when I see a K4, I have to wait for it to make a mistake (commit to the fight), or it will attack and just walk way.
My only problem with it is that when I am 'on' with the 30mm, I can't hit anything with .50s or 20mm. . .
I agree on the Spit14, it is a much more difficult plane to fly and it does not really deserve the perk price. . . spit16s are better under 15k.
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k4 cant be that bad ars, i kill more of them then they kill of me :ahand
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per se means "in itself." And yes, the 109k4 IS a dogfighter per se. Arguably the best dogfighter the Germans ever put up that saw combat. No ords, super fast, climbs like a monkey, and loaded with the one-hitter-quitter in the nose. Is someone trying to make a dogfighter/interceptor distinction? Semantics.
As for ENY, nobody knows is the correct answer.
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I don't think the K4 is 'easy mode' in the traditional sense because it takes time to learn how to use and appreciate its abilities. When I think of 'easy mode', I think of planes that don't take time to learn in order to be successful. As I a equate time to learn as skill and not ease of use.
my 2 cents
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As for ENY, nobody knows is the correct answer.
Hitech does. :D
K4, easy mode? Meh. I sometimes wonder why it isn't perked or a 10 ENY plane. IMO, Ki-84 and 109K4 does not belong at 20 ENY. Then again, it wouldn't matter, because perks means little to a good pilot.
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k4 cant be that bad ars, i kill more of them then they kill of me :ahand
Yes, but you play the game disguised as a bomber, by the time they figure it out it's too late.
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K4 is easy mode disguised as 20 eny fighter. It's certainly one of top 5 unperked rides in the game.
<S>...-Gixer
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Do all that killing in a 109E4, then come back and talk about a cartoon 'symbol of courage" :)
A lot of experienced cartoon pilots fly K4s so they already have the basics down. Throw in a plane with that kind of performance and it's not exactly taking a great 'risk' for those guys to be killers in it.
That's not meant as a shot, as the majority of K4 guys also will fight in them.
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That's not meant as a shot, as the majority of K4 guys also will fight in them.
And like the Pony/D9 the majority will also use it's speed to exit fights as soon as the advantage is lost. True 20 eny rides have no option but stay and fight it out.
<S>...-Gixer
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Never blame the plane for the players actions. If someone in a spit 16 is willing to fight me and fight me hard, I will always respect that. If hes only looking to jump in and pile on, thats when he becomes a dweeb in my eyes...but honestly its his 15 bucks. He can play as he wishes even if I dont like it.
The K4 is an awesome plane. If you like it, fly it. Dont worry about what anyone thinks. People call me noob all the time for flying a mustang yet somehow a P47M is "manly". P47m is awesome and I love it, but they are so closely matched that I find it hilarious that people make that distinction. Its all about perception, and most of the time perception is not grounded in reality or fact.....especially in games on the internet. ;)
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BigR discussion isn't about the plane and players actions, it about whether the plane is a 20 eny ride and if it's easy mode and should be lower eny in reflection of this.
Personally I don't think it should have eny any higher than 10
<S>...-Gixer
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And like the Pony/D9 the majority will also use it's speed to exit fights as soon as the advantage is lost. True 20 eny rides have no option but stay and fight it out.
<S>...-Gixer
Well put. I agree. It's not easier to learn, it's easier to be uber once you do. But whether it's a vet who knows how to turn it or a mediocre player who knows when to break off and run, its performance is a ridiculously large advantage. K4s are a runners plane and they don't even look like they're running. Hanging on its prop so close you could reach out and touch them in a rolling scissors or simply going nose up until you can BnZ is barely more praise worthy than learning to turn and fly a brewster, spit or zeke well. Both cases are about 10% pilot skill and 90% aircraft performance. Praise that can be given to K4 drivers is for sticking with an initially more intimidating machine.
Eny for this a/c has always seemed wrong and those who fly it and disagree have an incentive to think that way, lowering eny would have a corresponding drop in bragging rights.
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If it makes the Bf109K-4 fans feel any better, I don't think the Mosquito Mk VI is really an ENY 30 ride either. Yes, I like milking it, but it really is better than that.
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If it makes the Bf109K-4 fans feel any better, I don't think the Mosquito Mk VI is really an ENY 30 ride either. Yes, I like milking it, but it really is better than that.
I hope the mossi never gets changed. I love destroying spit16s with it and getting 50 perks :devil
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K4 is played out i miss how the old G10 a niche ride . Eny for
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......um German planes stunk! :banana: :bolt:
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If it makes the Bf109K-4 fans feel any better, I don't think the Mosquito Mk VI is really an ENY 30 ride either. Yes, I like milking it, but it really is better than that.
Shhh...! keep quiet... :uhoh
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Gotta agree here, the mossie6 should be around 20 eny. It might see more use that way (if it appears to be rated better).
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Do all that killing in a 109E4, then come back and talk about a cartoon 'symbol of courage" Smiley
What he said. :aok Although, that's not even cartoon courage if you don't value your cartoon life.
K-4 and the word "courage" do not belong in the same sentence.
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Hmm....
If you were to drop the ENY of the K4 to 10 or 15, you would have to do the same with the F4U-1A as its another perfect example of a plane with a slight learning curve but once you know it you can be REALLY good. I don't know of many planes in this game that can float 500ft above the ground at 80 mph but the 1A can do it. Not to mention the crazy, crazy ACM you can pull out of that bird in a pinch. Yet it's 20 ENY.
I guess what I'm getting at is there seems to be a few planes that are "over ENYed", not just he k4.
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The F4U1A is something different, lightening fast on the deck, dives like nothing else, turns tight as a spit, not horrible in climbing, has a very long range. Its only average in high-alt performance and poor in acceleration.
Its ENY 15, by the way.
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The ENY number for the K4 gets confused by the Ordinance factor. Most think of ENY as how easy it is to get kills, but that's only half the story. The K$ carries no bombs or rockets. So its ENY is lower than a PONY which carries both, and has very long range. You can't close a field with a K4 Raid. Ponies have low ENY because a group can bring 2K worth of bombs across the map, close a field and kill all the fighter that are in the air. K4 can't.
if ENY was rating only the capability in Air to Air, K4 would be rated very high, the Pony would be much lower that it is. BUT air to air is only part of the ENY rating.
Speed top 1%
climb rate top 1%
Acceleration top 1%
Firepower top 5%
Visibility top 20%
roll rate top 20%
Flat turn rate top 35%
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Ponies have low ENY because a group can bring 2K worth of bombs across the map, close a field and kill all the fighter that are in the air. K4 can't.
The 47M and the Ta 152 can't either, both having ENY 10. :)
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Eny - pfft. Doesn't matter.
What matters -- how one 30mm shot can take off the entire rear section of a 38! :lol
Sorry - back to your guys' debate. :)
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Thats nonsense, Vinky.
Speed: yes, its the fastest propeller-driven aircraft from 8-27K, has a long wep. But on the deck, the F4U series, 190D, Tiphy, Tempy, La, Spit14, M-jug are all faster. Its still very quick, but not the top 1%, not nearly.
Climb rate: its really top notch, insanely quick all the way.
Acceleration: made some test with Krupinski, the K4 accelerates very well, but far from the top 1%.
Firepower: while its one hit - one kill, the ammo load is small, and any fighter further than 400 is practically untouchable. A mixed bag.
Visibility: very good - for being a razorback birdcage. Otherwise, poor.
Roll rate: medicore from 150-350mph, practically non-existent over 430. Aileron rolls cant really be performed near the stall, due to the strong torque, but the snaprolls are easy and steady. A mixed bag, again.
Flat turn rate: ~19.2 seconds per circle, on the deck. Thats poor, considering the spit8/9/16 turns around in 15-16 seconds, the spit14 in 17.5 seconds, the lala/p38 in 18.3 seconds, and the 190D in 20.5 seconds.
Flat furn radius: large, ~535 feet with full flaps, according to DocGonzo's site. Thats about the same as the Spit14, P38, 190A5, or the P47D11 with the small gun package.
Low speed handling: i was fammiliar with this aircraft, felt it quite handy and forgiving, both on the edge of stall and in the post-stall moves.
In a hands of a dweeb, the K4 can escape from the fight quickly. Isnt the best horde-munkey plane as it cant really dive and cant get a kill from 600. But when a veteran is flying it, it turns into a beast, being able to stay with the stallfighters for a while or overshoot them and shoot their donut with the tater - just whatch RedBull flying it, or anyone from the same category. A truly impressive sight, yet very difficult to get the most out from this aircraft.
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The 47M and the Ta 152 can't either, both having ENY 10. :)
Oooo... The Snail lands a solid point. :D
I never thought about the K4 vs. TA-152. The 152 is certainly a beast when flown to it's strengths, but I dunno if it's a more capable fighter than the K4. It does have more punch with the 20mm's and more taters to chuck. I can't think of any other reason it would be that much lower ENY than the K4.
Tis a puzzlement for sure. :headscratch:
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I never thought about the K4 vs. TA-152. The 152 is certainly a beast when flown to it's strengths, but I dunno if it's a more capable fighter than the K4.
Not at the altitudes where more than 90% of combate takes place in AH. At regular altitudes, the 109K is all over the 152. Faster, accelerates better and turns much better as well.
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K4 is played out i miss how the old G10 a niche ride . Eny for
I too wish we had the G-10. I really like the K-4 and the way they fly but I can't hit the ground with the 30mm. If the K-4 had a 20 package I would fly it a lot more. The 109f-4 and g-2 are my favorite 109 rides. But the 109K-4 is more like a 10 eny plane in my humble opinion
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The 47M and the Ta 152 can't either, both having ENY 10. :)
Nor the Spitfire MK XIV and it is ENY 5 and actually perked. It is also, contrary to debrody's claim, slower on the deck than the Bf109K-4.
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Thats nonsense, Vinky.
Speed: yes, its the fastest propeller-driven aircraft from 8-27K, has a long wep. But on the deck, the F4U series, 190D, Tiphy, Tempy, La, Spit14, M-jug are all faster. Its still very quick, but not the top 1%, not nearly.
The K4 is faster than the M jug from 1ft to 24,000ft on both wep and mil. It's faster than the F4U-1A above 3,000ft on mil. On wep, the K4 is faster than the F4U-1A at all alts. If the K4 isnt in the top 1% in terms of speed, its awfully close. [Data pulled from the AH generated charts]
Flat turn rate: ~19.2 seconds per circle, on the deck. Thats poor, considering the spit8/9/16 turns around in 15-16 seconds, the spit14 in 17.5 seconds, the lala/p38 in 18.3 seconds, and the 190D in 20.5 seconds.
Flat furn radius: large, ~535 feet with full flaps, according to DocGonzo's site. Thats about the same as the Spit14, P38, 190A5, or the P47D11 with the small gun package.
This data supports an ENY of 20 when viewed in the eyes of a 2-week rookie. But of course, only a 2-week rookie would flat turn his 109k4. Any luftpilot worth his salt is gonna take the fight vertical. But most of us here know this already. And we know that once you take the fight vertical, this 20ENY plane turns into a SpitK4. Slight exaggeration.
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An other nonsense, Messiah.
First, climb rate =/= turn rate.
Then, the spit8/16 climbs just as good as the k4.
After that, an energy-fight is not a turn fight.
And finally, a rope-a-dope is not a turnfight, is not elegant, and the luftsticks who have some pride stuck into them, wont use this. Just like how the worthy pony sticks dont run for the first sight of danger - ask BigR.
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:lol
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And finally, a rope-a-dope is not a turnfight, is not elegant, and the luftsticks who have some pride stuck into them, wont use this. Just like how the worthy pony sticks dont run for the first sight
The biggest propagated myth in this game is "top luft sticks don't fight in the vertical" or something along those lines.
Plus the rope can be just as elegant as a turn fight.
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Debrody... You have got to get out of the mindset you have... The K4 is a monster IMO while using the vert. Not necessarily to straight zoom up. You can fight in a vertical rolling scissors or something. I'm guessing you think using vert is just trying to BnZ or something..
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Debrody, clarify please. Are you arguing with my analysis? Because if you are, great use of the strawman. I never mentioned climb rate nor did I analogize the rope-a-dope to using the vert. In fact, I agree with everything in your last post. So if we agree, then we're doing a crap job of it.
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Sorryes, im horribly simple-minded :old:
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The ENY number for the K4 gets confused by the Ordinance factor. Most think of ENY as how easy it is to get kills, but that's only half the story. The K$ carries no bombs or rockets. So its ENY is lower than a PONY which carries both, and has very long range. You can't close a field with a K4 Raid. Ponies have low ENY because a group can bring 2K worth of bombs across the map, close a field and kill all the fighter that are in the air. K4 can't.
...<snip>
ENY does not represent the capability of a plane in the attack role. There is an OBJ value for that which determine the number of perks one gets in the attack category. As far as I know if you select "fighter" score, you get no perks even if you drop bombs on structures. K4 cannot select "attack", but the pony can.
Anyway, if perks are the yardstick, then the K4 is clearly valued too high in ENY.
From Lusche's stats thread:
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/Clipboard01_zpsda6f9ec7.jpg)
The K4 has a much higher than average effective perk/kill score. It means it kills mostly planes of lower ENY than itself. In addition, it is ranked at the top in total perks earned, but is no where near the top in its frequency of usage in the MA. This means that the ENY value assigned to it fits more a plane which is ranked as "below average" fighter in the combined usage and effectiveness. The K4 is both more effective and not rare in the MA.
If you want to compare to the P51D, the latter got to #4 in total perks even though the perk/kill is extremely low. This just reflect its very high usage in the arena.
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ENY does not represent the capability of a plane in the attack role. There is an OBJ value for that which determine the number of perks one gets in the attack category. As far as I know if you select "fighter" score, you get no perks even if you drop bombs on structures. K4 cannot select "attack", but the pony can.
Selecting Fighter, Attack or Bomber has no effect at all on perks gained. Those settings are for score purposes only. All fighters have an OBJ of 10, from the Spitfire Mk Ia with no bombs and only .303s to the Bf110G-2 with nearly 9k lbs of damage potential.
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ENY does not represent the capability of a plane in the attack role. There is an OBJ value for that which determine the number of perks one gets in the attack category. As far as I know if you select "fighter" score, you get no perks even if you drop bombs on structures. K4 cannot select "attack", but the pony can.
Attack capability plays a huge role in ENY determination by HTC, as ENY is not only used to determine perk gain but also is a method of controlling the arena via ENY limiter. That's why the 110G has such a low ENY for example.
And as Karnak already said, scoring mode is just that and has no influence on perks. Fighters will always get fighter perks, bombers will get bomber perks, no matter how they chose to score the sortie or what they destroy.
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The 47M and the Ta 152 can't either, both having ENY 10. :)
True but this I think is based on "firepower" advantage for the P-47 and Ta-152. But I think the firepower is a calculated number based on total damage that can be done by the ammo load. It doesn't take into account acual effectiveness. the P47 with 8 .50 cals and 3700 rounds of ammo probably has a huge damage capability number. I find the Spread for bullets in all those wing guns means that most don't land, and the ones that land are scattered over several parts. Because of that, its effective capability is less than the K4 in fighter vs fighter, because one 30mm breaks what ever it hits.
In summary I think the K4 is a sleeper plane because once you learn to use the 30mm, it becomes much more effective than its "damage total" would indicate.
Ta 152 is over ENY'd. :D
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Selecting Fighter, Attack or Bomber has no effect at all on perks gained. Those settings are for score purposes only.
For 11 years I've been living in a lie!
Perhaps because I dont recall ever selecting the attack mode for any intentional reason.
edit:
But for bombers OBJ does affect the perks gain? because I am quite sure I got some bomber perks without shooting at anything with an icon over it.
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edit:
But for bombers OBJ does affect the perks gain? because I am quite sure I got some bomber perks without shooting at anything with an icon over it.
OBJ affect the perk you gain for destroying structures in everything - fighter, bomber, vehicle all alike.
If you bomb a building OBJ will say how many perks you get, and yor plane type will say where they go to. Your scoring choice only affects where the score from this attack/sortie is written to.
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ENY does not represent the capability of a plane in the attack role. There is an OBJ value for that which determine the number of perks one gets in the attack category. As far as I know if you select "fighter" score, you get no perks even if you drop bombs on structures. K4 cannot select "attack", but the pony can.
Anyway, if perks are the yardstick, then the K4 is clearly valued too high in ENY.
From Lusche's stats thread:
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/Clipboard01_zpsda6f9ec7.jpg)
The K4 has a much higher than average effective perk/kill score. It means it kills mostly planes of lower ENY than itself. In addition, it is ranked at the top in total perks earned, but is no where near the top in its frequency of usage in the MA. This means that the ENY value assigned to it fits more a plane which is ranked as "below average" fighter in the combined usage and effectiveness. The K4 is both more effective and not rare in the MA.
If you want to compare to the P51D, the latter got to #4 in total perks even though the perk/kill is extremely low. This just reflect its very high usage in the arena.
As self serving as this may sound, the K4 on average attracts much better pilots too and that makes a huge difference.
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As self serving as this may sound, the K4 on average attracts much better pilots too and that makes a huge difference.
Somewhat true, but that does not affect the perk/kill statistic. It only means that its a perk machine for veteran players. Not that this really matters to a vet since if other are like myself they have more perks than they spend by a factors of a few. If on the other hand the "buy perk rides for everyone" mission suggestion is accepted I will care more about earning perks. Doing a horde mission in 262s strifing the town and acks is worth a few K perks for me :)
Or a mass Mossie XVI raid, but that will require a lot of A20 and SBD hours to get the perks for that. :rolleyes:
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109G6, Ki-84 and P38J for easy perk farming. :old: Handles almost everything that's thrown at them.
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An other nonsense, Messiah.
First, climb rate =/= turn rate.
Then, the spit8/16 climbs just as good as the k4.
After that, an energy-fight is not a turn fight.
And finally, a rope-a-dope is not a turnfight, is not elegant, and the luftsticks who have some pride stuck into them, wont use this. Just like how the worthy pony sticks dont run for the first sight of danger - ask BigR.
Luft sticks most certainly do use the vertical. All the time as a matter of fact. It's what I was refering to when I said "so close you can almost touch them." Holding the nose up and hanging on its prop is in the vertical even if it's not gaining altitude. And that is the k4s bread and butter.
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Oooo... The Snail lands a solid point. :D
Snail always has a solid point and has charts to back it up.
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The K$ is right up there with the p51D and the spitXVI. It is incredibly easy to win a fight in once you learn even the most vague basics of the game's flight model. However, out of those three uber rides I would say it is also the most fun to fly well in. The p51D is also fun but due to the great guns it lends itself more to hit and run tactics. The spit XVI holds almost no enjoyment for me personally, though I have no problem with anyone who does enjoy it.
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109G6, Ki-84 and P38J for easy perk farming. :old: Handles almost everything that's thrown at them.
I really wouldn't consider the P-38J as a good perk farmer, unless 99% of your kills are late war birds like the P-51D, La7, FW190-D9, etc. It's an average perk gaining plane in my opinion.
ack-ack
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ENY does not represent the capability of a plane in the attack role. There is an OBJ value for that which determine the number of perks one gets in the attack category. As far as I know if you select "fighter" score, you get no perks even if you drop bombs on structures. K4 cannot select "attack", but the pony can.
Anyway, if perks are the yardstick, then the K4 is clearly valued too high in ENY.
From Lusche's stats thread:
(http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o507/Snaildude/Clipboard01_zpsda6f9ec7.jpg)
The K4 has a much higher than average effective perk/kill score. It means it kills mostly planes of lower ENY than itself. In addition, it is ranked at the top in total perks earned, but is no where near the top in its frequency of usage in the MA. This means that the ENY value assigned to it fits more a plane which is ranked as "below average" fighter in the combined usage and effectiveness. The K4 is both more effective and not rare in the MA.
If you want to compare to the P51D, the latter got to #4 in total perks even though the perk/kill is extremely low. This just reflect its very high usage in the arena.
So, based on this logic, clearly the A8's eny is to high? I would go on to say since the 51 is used over 3 times as much it should probably be perked.
Stats are an amazing tool that can be used to support whatever conclusion you want.
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I compiled some data on the different planes a few years ago using Dokgonzo's website trying to get a better understanding of how the different planes compare. There are lots of ways this can be done, but I simply rank ordered the planes from first to last in the categories of sea level speed, acceleration 150-200 mph, and full flaps turn radius. I then multiplied the rank of the planes together to determine an overall rank. This simplistic ranking shows the following, starting at number 1. I don't know that this matches my perception of the best planes exactly, but was interesting. Note that even though the planes are listed 1 through 15, many of them have nearly identical scores.
Tempest
La-7
Spit 14
F4U-4
Bf109K-4
Spit 16
Spit 8
La-5FN
FW 190D-9
A6M2
A6M5
Ki-84
Bf 109G-14
N1K2-J
F4U-1D
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Did you weight the values for their importance at all? The fact that the A6M2 shows as your 10th most potent plane suggests you did not and that you omitted a lot of other characteristics.
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I really wouldn't consider the P-38J as a good perk farmer, unless 99% of your kills are late war birds like the P-51D, La7, FW190-D9, etc. It's an average perk gaining plane in my opinion.
ack-ack
Hmm, plenty of ammo and good qualities allows for lots of kills, which make up for it IMO. I suppose the Mossie is a nice perk farmer if you can find the right fight but once it's caught, it can't do the same things a 38 can do low and slow. At least for me anyways.
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I didn't weight any of the categories, just rank ordered them. Some of the planes are very one dimensional while others are more balanced. The A6M shows so high because it was ranked 1 in the turn radius. I made several different graphs using the same data with the 3 axis being the speed, acceleration, and turn radius. The graphs show better how the planes compare.
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This argument has been going for a while. Personally I do not view the K4 as an easy-more plane...has a lot of torque that you must get used to and is a huge advantage once mastered. The 30mm is the main reason you don't see more of these IMO. It is one of the most capable fighters flight model wise, but lacks in the "easy mode armament" vs the likes of the 4-cannon birds and 2MG/2-cannon.
I could see the ENY being dropped a bit considering that once you learn the basics of the plane it never stops becoming better as you learn the characteristics.
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Spikes until you change your avatar, no one will ever hear a word you say. :)
<S>...-Gixer
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And as a Luft jock, I rope ALL the time. One of my favorite moves. Why? Cause it's effective.
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Most new players have a hard time recognizing everything that can be done in the vertical dimension when in a pinch, that is why they seem to gravitate toward the Spits. The K-4 is ugly, a "bad guy" plane, doesn't have a lot of ammo, doesn't have great gun ballistics and doesn't carry ord. It is not "easy mode" for a "green" pilot. A pilot with a little experience will easily recognize not only the obvious advantages the K-4 holds over most of the planeset, but how to use them.
I respect K4s much more than Spit16s in the MA for the specific reason that someone flying the Spit to its full potential is about as common as getting struck by lightning, going against a K4, it's a roll of the dice. On the fence about the ENY-is it possible that there's more to determining ENY than just air to air and air to ground? What about less tangible factors like simply managing the types prevalence?
The D-40 and F6F are fairly similar with many advantages going to the D-40, yet the F6F is 15ENY vs 20 for that Jug. The F6F is available from a carrier however. The 109G-2 and F-4 seems very overpowered to be 30ENY aircraft. The Luft crowd gets an ENY break pretty much across to encourage diversity-not a bad reason.
In the end does this discussion matter in terms of gameplay? If someone has been around long enough to master the K-4, good for them, they probably have no use for their perks either.
I'm closing on 4k fighter perks on this subscription and still don't have an F7F or F8F to burn them on... :bolt:
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I think many are over - estimating how easy it is to actually employ the skills needed to fly the K4 well. We're all pretty much vets here, and our personal perspective is almost certainly skewed quite heavily.
Many of the low-average pilots may... no, probably... recognize the factors that go into flying the K4, but simply don't have them down because they aren't necessary to flying most other aircraft reasonably well.
And in my opinion, a plane isn't easy mode if you have to practice a specific skill set to use it effectively. It should be largely intuitive. For that reason, planes like the 190s, P-38, typhoon, and yes, the 109K, aren't easy mode. A new player will have trouble in them not because he is flying them poorly in the correct general manner, but because he is flying them in a manner not well suited to the aircraft.
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Well put :salute
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I had never flown the K4 outside of one sortie here and there until last tour when I started flying it to knock out some LW achievements.
Bottom line, it's an amazing aircraft. After a few sorties to see how the 30mm flies compared to 50 cals, the 30mm is quite amazing and I started easily landing 4+ kills per sortie.
Not worrying about score, I was flying this aircraft at a disadvantage almost the entire time--- upping from capped fields, engaging aircraft with 5-10K of alt above me... All you have to do is get someone to slow down to match your speed, force the overshoot and shoot 'em in the poopshoot, or run them down if you miss.
I still haven't mastered the k4 flip; however, scoring with this aircraft in the MA is definitely easy mode. Granted, 95% of the time I died, I was picked by that high P-51 or P-47 I didn't see. The other 5% I was consistently schooled by people like Latrobe that are just plain amazing in it. :rock
Here are some numbers for a non-German iron ponyb dweeb actively flying a K4 for the first time:
In tour 158, I went 229/82 averaging 2.76 K/D+1 (was running at 200 convergence on the 30mm -- oops)
So far in tour 159, I am 59/17 averaging 3.27 K/D+1 (was able to increase my stats now that I've got the 30mm at 650 and can actually lead them :bhead)
For those that haven't flown it... fly it straight for a week. The best gunnery tip for 30mm I can give you is: Where you think you should aim to score a hit, at least double your lead or even triple it, based off your target's speed. You won't be disappointed! :salute
Almost forgot... I'd much rather be in a K4 than my bravo with someone on my six, as it provides a lot more options, defensively and offensively.
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Yup, the K4 has everything but the dive ability to be highly successful - its just not easy to use its full capabilities.
Hey Pand, let me be a dyck ;)
You liked the K4 because its amazing - yes it is, but have you ever tryed a Spit? Liked it, no? Maybe it couldnt go - away?
Sorries, just had to : )
Anyways, seriously speaking, once i would like to see, what you can do. In a friendly way.
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The K-4 has so damn much power I fought an entire fight one day at 50-60% throttle never deviating from that and still didn't have problems going vertical when I needed to. And it made turning against torque sooo much easier although it eliminated the snap roll that's so often so helpfull.
How much easier can you get? It's a wicked awsome plane; a fine alternate to a Spirfire.
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Bah! You can't fly a spit with honour! :D
except the 14. Alot like the K4. :old:
but pand, if I were to have my little brother hope on, he wouldn't be able to control this plane. He's like a week better than a 2 weeker. He likes your plane karnak :headscratch:
back to pand, I don't know ling you've been playing but you already KNOW how to fly and kinda what to expect. Transition comes easy for jocks like us :joystick:
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ENY is something that really should change for some planes.
Since I fly formation regularly with Bozon in his Mossie, being outperformed in ALL aspects but dive-speed, finding out Mossie has higher ENY than my hippo A8, you realize something is wrong.
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ENY is something that really should change for some planes.
Since I fly formation regularly with Bozon in his Mossie, being outperformed in ALL aspects but dive-speed, finding out Mossie has higher ENY than my hippo A8, you realize something is wrong.
That's just because you are lazy and I am pedaling faster on the climbout :neener:
(http://wipwapweb.com/image_cache/previews/4bcb5a1f5f0a4-glide-o-bike_02.jpg)
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:rofl
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Nobody is claiming that the K-4 is as easy as the Spit XVI. What we are pointing out is that, contrary to how the K-4 fans talk about it, the K-4 is actually well on the easier side of the bell curve. With just an idea of how it is supposed to be used a player becomes nigh untouchable to a whole range of aircraft and while he may have trouble getting kills at first, he won't be dying as much either. Not dying is key to getting better because the time spent getting to a fight doesn't help build skills at all and if you die in the first 20 seconds after engaging, well, there is a lot of not building skills going on. Contrast that to, say, a P-40E or Ki-61. Those fighters can be quite successful, but a new player isn't really going to build the required skills in them unless he is very dedicated because they don't offer much in the way of survival tools.
If a P-40C is a 1 on the difficulty scale and a Spitfire Mk XVI is an 10, then the Bf109K-4 is probably a 7 or 8. Yes, harder than the Spitfire, but easier than average by a significant margin.
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Fine but ENY stays the same
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Fine but ENY stays the same
Either the Bf109K-4's ENY is way out of whack or the Ta152H-1, P-47M and Spitfire Mk XIV's ENY is way out of whack.
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Either the Bf109K-4's ENY is way out of whack or the Ta152H-1, P-47M and Spitfire Mk XIV's ENY is way out of whack.
I agree with all but the P-47M... MAYBE 15... but it's a pretty easy to use plane, especially when it has WEP left.
Ta-152 should be 20... dunno about the Spit XIV.
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More realistically, the K-4 should be ENY 10 or 12.
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More realistically, the K-4 should be ENY 10 or 12.
Yes. And im a luftweenie, enjoyed farming perks in it.
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More realistically, the K-4 should be ENY 10 or 12.
How do you feel about the Ki-84 being 20 ENY?
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How do you feel about the Ki-84 being 20 ENY?
Probably more a ENY 15 ride, maybe 20. Compare it to the Bf109F-4 and it isn't too different, rolls better, better firepower and better cockpit visibility. Speed and climb are very similar.
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As previously discussed in other threads and wishlists... To get an actual ENY value that is truly equal, all need to be on the same playing field. This would include updating ENY for each aircraft, relative to the ordnance loadouts that are being carried.
Example: A P51 with 2x1000 lbs, 6 rockets, and full ammo load of 6x50s has much more destructive power than just a P51 with 6x50s.
In the current ENY system, every P51 that leaves the hangar, regardless of what is carried, is rated based off of the full ordnance loadout.
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As previously discussed in other threads and wishlists... To get an actual ENY value that is truly equal, all need to be on the same playing field. This would include updating ENY for each aircraft, relative to the ordnance loadouts that are being carried.
Example: A P51 with 2x1000 lbs, 6 rockets, and full ammo load of 6x50s has much more destructive power than just a P51 with 6x50s.
In the current ENY system, every P51 that leaves the hangar, regardless of what is carried, is rated based off of the full ordnance loadout.
Bullhocky. Your claim is that if it can't be perfect there is no reason to make it better. Perfect should not be the enemy of good.
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Bullhocky. Your claim is that if it can't be perfect there is no reason to make it better. Perfect should not be the enemy of good.
Geez man calm down, every post is not an attack on your ideas!
I have said nothing of the sort. By all means please improve it... and eventually, hopefully to a point where it takes into account ordnance loadouts. Any improvement is better than nothing. :salute
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Bullhocky. Your claim is that if it can't be perfect there is no reason to make it better. Perfect should not be the enemy of good.
(http://www.juice.ph/cms_images/234282/pms2.jpg)
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That's just because you are lazy and I am pedaling faster on the climbout :neener:
(http://wipwapweb.com/image_cache/previews/4bcb5a1f5f0a4-glide-o-bike_02.jpg)
you got 2 pedals, I only got one :old:
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Geez man calm down, every post is not an attack on your ideas!
I have said nothing of the sort. By all means please improve it... and eventually, hopefully to a point where it takes into account ordnance loadouts. Any improvement is better than nothing. :salute
I am actually not sure that accounting for loadouts would improve it. In the hands of a numerically superior enemy the P-51D, without ordnance, is still a serious problem. The same is true for other fast planes that handle high speed well.
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How do you feel about the Ki-84 being 20 ENY?
Ki is better than a 20 ENY. Finest dogfighter in the game if you ask me. Which you didn't, but I just told you. So... there's that.
:)
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Ki is better than a 20 ENY. Finest dogfighter in the game if you ask me. Which you didn't, but I just told you. So... there's that.
:)
I always thought it gave the Spit 16 a pretty good run for its money.
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I always thought it gave the Spit 16 a pretty good run for its money.
Agreed.
Makes me wonder who said it was the "Jap 190". That gives the impression all it can do is roll and run.
:uhoh
:bolt:
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Agreed.
Makes me wonder who said it was the "Jap 190". That gives the impression all it can do is roll and run.
:uhoh
:bolt:
:rofl
The 190 is actually a very agile aircraft, not so much in the slow speed turns, but at med-high speeds, the controlls are crisp and responsive, and it can turn with the best of them. Additionally, it is a very flexible aircraft (at least in real life, not quite so much here). And have you even seen 190's in a scenario, paricularly an EW or MW one? They tend to do VERY well.
Its the MA play that gives the 190 a bad rap, same with the P-51. Both are actually quite capable dogfighters, but are poorly used, and give a bad impression of themselves IN THE MA.
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:rofl
The 190 is actually a very agile aircraft, not so much in the slow speed turns, but at med-high speeds, the controlls are crisp and responsive, and it can turn with the best of them. Additionally, it is a very flexible aircraft (at least in real life, not quite so much here). And have you even seen 190's in a scenario, paricularly an EW or MW one? They tend to do VERY well.
Its the MA play that gives the 190 a bad rap, same with the P-51. Both are actually quite capable dogfighters, but are poorly used, and give a bad impression of themselves IN THE MA.
I'm tracking you... and for the record I was just being a silly, petty little man taking a jab at Luft guys. :salute
I find the A5 to be a very capable plane as long as I don't ask it to do too much... which I often do. :o
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Agreed.
Makes me wonder who said it was the "Jap 190". That gives the impression all it can do is roll and run.
:uhoh
:bolt:
I think it's quite a bit closer to the Jap Spixteen (which I have also heard it called) considering the only thing it has in common with the 190 seems to be the radial engine and gun layout... when a 190 is just getting warmed up, the Ki-84 feels like a Typhoon.
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Triton was right somewhere: a 190 vs 190 duel is pretty much the same as a ki84 vs ki84 one. They handle the same near the stall - the main difference is, things just happen slower in the german bird.
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i have been in the 84 over the past few months now...
vert like a lala 3500+ ft per min from the deck up to 10k without wep
roll rate is avg or little under par
instant and sustained turn rate are solid
barrelrolls like the Emil at 80-100mph using flaps and throttle
turns inside of spits using slight yo yo pitching and flaps at the right time
can not run from anything flat out but can dive to 450 without braking stuff and still remain in control... i have dove with jugs chasing them down trailing and they were not able to extend until long after we dove and hit the deck and i ran out of intermittent wep usage... 15 minutes later the jug is still 1.5k out and just now getting a chance to pull away.
the Ki84 is prolly the most underestimated plane in the game imho next to the Emil and the macci but then again I'm the village idiot that escaped my village and is running around in ah like a normal person......
edit:
ill fight a group of 190s' and 109s' in the Ki any day any time... bring a friend because I'm bringing my lunch gentlemen and we can make a afternoon of it <S> 3v1 in a Ki is almost unfair for the three of them.
the spit is much easyer to fly and kill in any of them over the 190 109 series second to the spit series would be the Brewster and the zero, the 190 109 series needs a much more solid understanding of bfm/acm to even fly them against opponents where the spit series you need not know anything at all and can get in and kill no bfm acm needed.
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Ki is loads of fun against odds. Ran into 8 ponyB's. Got 3 of them but those monkeys were alot to handle.
@Karnak, fine fine fine. Make K4 Eny 15, and Ta-152 15, A5 30, And storch 5
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Having read all these replies the simple is answer is win the first merge and make the shot. Any plane with guns can do that to any other plane given the right advantage of plane, E or pilot or any combination of the three. No plane has the first merge advantage in all circumstances. Not the K4, not the Mustang or a KI or any of the P machines.
What happens next if you loose the first merge advantage and or missed the first shot, well, that is when the plane's performance can give more options. The more useable options the greater chance of winning. The K4 has good options after the first merge.
Any discussion of a plane's role in winning should be based on a premise of a botched merge and its ability to recover.
Probably way off base on this one but it seems right to me.
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Ki is loads of fun against odds. Ran into 8 ponyB's. Got 3 of them but those monkeys were alot to handle.
How many years ago was this?
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I think it's quite a bit closer to the Jap Spixteen (which I have also heard it called) considering the only thing it has in common with the 190 seems to be the radial engine and gun layout... when a 190 is just getting warmed up, the Ki-84 feels like a Typhoon.
I can certainly see that. Although if Ink gets pissed at the renaming of his bird I want the above post to clearly show it was 80HD's idea. :D
The 84 is probably the only plane that makes me say, "Spit 16... pffft."
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The 84 is probably the only plane that makes me say, "Spit 16... pffft."
:rofl
Luv it because it's true!
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Perk the K4 yo...
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Perk the 51, G
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Perk the 5" guns
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Perk the 5" guns
best idea ever!
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How many years ago was this?
2 years ago? I had the benifet of better skins.
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I find the A5 to be a very capable plane as long as I don't ask it to do too much... which I often do. :o
And thats really part of the trick in all the 190's
BTW. Personally I think the F4's are more easy mode then the pony. but not quite as much easy mode then the spit or Niki
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Triton was right somewhere: a 190 vs 190 duel is pretty much the same as a ki84 vs ki84 one. They handle the same near the stall - the main difference is, things just happen slower in the german bird.
Cept that the 84 turns much better and loops much better
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Mossy = Extremely gunnery
Pony = Extremely easy to keep E advantage
Spitfire = All around easy everything
K4 = Very good climb rate
Brewster= Turning buff said
I consider all these planes and many more easy mode, the ones above have their reasons. Rides can be hard to fly when you take them out of their envelope....fly a 152 on the deck, not easy mode at all. Only ones that I call easy mode anyway they are flown are Spit 16s and the Brewster(including comparable aircraft, not all but a few of them)
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I take the 84 up much more than the Spixteen for the simple fact that it has more ammo and won't fall apart if someone looks at it the wrong way.
And since this thread is getting a little boring I'll throw this out there: I'd take a K4 before the Spit 16.
Why?
Views 16
Looks 16
Range 16
Dive 16
Roll 16
Turn 16
Firepower Debatable
Acceleration Even
Climb K4
Toughness K4
Climb K4
The biggest factor going for the K4 is speed. If you are going to weight combat attributes, speed is undeniably the "heavyweight champ." This is the biggest reason a 262 carries the highest fighter perk cost. Would the Pony be 5ENY if it did 340 on the deck? Lol. Speed allows you to choose the time and place, ensuring it is to your benefit. Speed alone probably determines "cause of death" for nearly half of deaths in the MA. The K4 not only has a huge speed advantage on the Spit initially, after 5 minutes, the Spit is going to clock in at maybe 320 on the deck while the K4 is still humming along at 370 another 4 minutes! Turn is a poor sub for either speed or climb and you have to be fairly slow for it to matter. (Curve speed/sustained turn) The K4 does enough things almost as well as the Spit while doing a great deal more of the things that will get you home. K/D this month 1.46/1.15 in favor of the K4. Many would say this is mostly a function of pilot skill and they'd be right. (The D-25 is leading the way at 1.82 :D) But the fact is that when people look at aircraft they generally fixate on only half the equation-killing. The other side of the equation is deaths. Americans are good at only seeing half of equations. Calories in vs calories out is one that comes to mind... While it may be a little easier to kill in a Spit (IF the enemy sticks around), it is MUCH harder to kill a K4 if he doesn't want you to.
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While it may be a little easier to kill in a Spit (IF the enemy sticks around), it is MUCH harder to kill a K4 if he doesn't want you to.
That is what I was refering to when I commented about a player who has just learned enough to use climb and speed. He may not be killing people a lot, but he will be living to get a lot more practice at killing than if he were in a P-40E or Me410. A player just getting his legs under him and trying to use those two spends a lot of time flying to the fight only to die very rapidly, not getting much actual combat practice. The Bf109K-4 buys you the ability to reset and try again, hence being comparatively easy mode.
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That is what I was refering to when I commented about a player who has just learned enough to use climb and speed. He may not be killing people a lot, but he will be living to get a lot more practice at killing than if he were in a P-40E or Me410. A player just getting his legs under him and trying to use those two spends a lot of time flying to the fight only to die very rapidly, not getting much actual combat practice. The Bf109K-4 buys you the ability to reset and try again, hence being comparatively easy mode.
Ok, is a good secondary learning aircraft. I'll give you that.
But it's easier to be EFFECTIVE in the spit. And I still don't think you've gotten to what easy mode truly is.
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But still only half the equation...
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So we can all agree...the K4 is awesome!
(on a side note I find the K4 harder to fly than the 4hog which is perked.)
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Perk the 5" guns
Absobloominlutely!
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I will be glad when this thread ends. It seems to spawn rashes of K4s. They were everywhere last night. Every time I saw one they were going straight up. :O
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I will be glad when this thread ends. It seems to spawn rashes of K4s. They were everywhere last night. Every time I saw one they were going straight up. :O
This thread is proving the point that it is making all by itself... :lol
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Ok, is a good secondary learning aircraft. I'll give you that.
But it's easier to be EFFECTIVE in the spit. And I still don't think you've gotten to what easy mode truly is.
Spitfire VIII and XVI are easier than the Bf109K-4, certainly. Not sure if the Spitfire IX or XIV is easier though. I don't think the Spitfire I or V is as easy.
As to what easy mode is, well, it depends on the skill level of the player. The more skills the player has to work with the more things get opened up as easy. Hence the Spitfire Mk XVI being a 10/10 on easy rating, Spitfire Mk VIII being a 9/10 or 9.5/10, the Bf109K-4 being a 7/10 or 8/10 and the P-40E being a 2/10. The player needs more skills to use the more difficult planes successfully, but there are far fewer skills, and they are easier skills to learn, needed to be successful in the Bf109K-4 than in the P-40E.
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I'd take everyother model of 109 over the K4 anyday.
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I'd take everyother model of 109 over the K4 anyday.
BOOM!
(http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/1752/me109z.jpg)
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BOOM!
(http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/1752/me109z.jpg)
Yeah... like that's in AcesHigh.
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Yeah... like that's in AcesHigh.
I bet we could build one from spare parts off all my crashed 109s. :D
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BOOM!
(http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/1752/me109z.jpg)
A wannabe P-38! Silly Germans! :neener:
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Yeah... like that's in AcesHigh.
You don't specify, and I am IN YOUR CHILLI, SIR.
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Krutch4.... perk it!!
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Krutch4.... perk it!!
Dolby is the key master! The master!!!
He doesn't need another engine :old:
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Dolby is the key master! The master!!!
He doesn't need another engine :old:
If dolby is the key master, does that make debrody the gatekeeper? :cheers:
(http://www.tumblr.com/photo/1280/nedhepburn/150618304/1/4p9526O82qfoq0tc2kXynVp2)
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Probably more a ENY 15 ride, maybe 20. Compare it to the Bf109F-4 and it isn't too different, rolls better, better firepower and better cockpit visibility. Speed and climb are very similar.
I would have to strongly disagree here Karnak...10-12 for the K4, and 15-20 for Ki-84?
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I would have to strongly disagree here Karnak...10-12 for the K4, and 15-20 for Ki-84?
Well, lets break it down a bit.
Ki-84-Ia vs Bf109K-4:
Basic data:
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=78&p2=1&pw=2>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=78&p2=1&pw=2>ype=2&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
Raw performance clearly favors the Bf109K-4, particularly as the altitude goes up.
That said, there are some places the Ki-84-Ia is clearly superior such as roll rate, turn rate, turn radius, range and bomb load.
I think, in general, we can consider the Ki-84-Ia to be a jack of all trades fighter, and a good one, whereas the Bf109K-4 is a pure interceptor.
I tend to focus on air-to-air capability so I probably have a bias there and the Bf109K-4's superior survivability due to sheer performance may cause me to see the Bf109K-4 as properly at a 10 while seeing the Ki-84-Ia more as a 15 or 20.
In the sheer performance category I compare the Ki-84-Ia to the Bf109F-4 and they seem relatively close, so it is hard for me to see the Ki-84 as an ENY 10 fighter when the Bf109F-4 is an ENY 30 fighter.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=78&p2=13&pw=2>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=78&p2=13&pw=2>ype=2&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
That said, the Spitfire Mk XVI is, speedwise at low altitude, in much the same place and it is clearly not an ENY 30 fighter, it is very properly an ENY 5 fighter.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=78&p2=86&pw=2>ype=0&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)(http://www.hitechcreations.com/components/com_ahplaneperf/genchart.php?p1=78&p2=86&pw=2>ype=2&gui=localhost&itemsel=GameData)
The things not shown in those charts matter, and there is a lot that isn't shown. The Ki-84-Ia's range is much better than the Bf109F-4's, its roll rate is much better, its cockpit visibility is much better and its firepower is much better. It also has usable air-to-ground capability, like the Spitfire Mk XVI. One can make a very strong argument that the Ki-84-Ia is in full competition with the Spitfire Mk XVI for the best of the jack of all trades fighters crown. The Spitfire climbs better and has better guns, but the Ki-84 is tougher, faster on MIL at low altitudes and has much better range.
The Ki-84-Ia is probably a 10-15 ENY fighter along with the Bf109K-4.
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Grrerrr cant argue with statistics.
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Because the ki-84s performance characteristics, it is easier to have success in with less experience. It can turn easier than a k4, and unless someone has experience on how to utilize the vert to overcome (which most noobs can't), they will have more success in a Ki84. Furthermore, place both in a knife fight with equal pilots, the ki will win most of the time due to its flaps/ better turn rate/ better roll rate, etc...
Even among vets this is true... NRShida and I used to duel k4 vs ki84 and unless it could be kept a pure vert fight, the ki-84 would get the angle eventually, its flaps are truly impressive.
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I don't think ENY should be set primarily based on what newbies can do. In fact, I think that ought to be pretty low on the list of criteria as newbies will manage to do very little regardless of what they are flying. I recall helping a new player in the TA years ago. He had signed up for his two week trial and jumped into the MA where he grabbed THE GREATEST FIGHTER OF WWII, the P-51D Mustang, and proceeded to have his rear handed to him by a Spitfire Mk V. Repeatedly.
I encountered him in the TA while he was messing around with the Spitfire Mk V, as it had just crushed his P-51D with ease, and commenting on how the P-51D was supposed to be able to out turn the Zero, let alone the Spitfire, because it was THE GREATEST FIGHTER OF WWII. Yes, he was putting his Mustang on its side and turning with a Spitfire Mk V and the results were predictable. I worked with him for a few hours and helped him understand a bit about the strengths and weaknesses of the different aircraft and how to try to use and exploit them. I don't know if he subbed or not, but at least he had an idea of what had happened to him.
The fact is that if he had been British instead of American and grabbed a Spitfire Mk V and run into an A6M5 or A6M2 the same exact scenario would have happened. His GREATEST FIGHTER OF WWII would have been blasted from the sky with ease.
If we were to use what a newbie could do with a fighter the 5 ENY fighters would be the A6Ms, Brewster, Hurricane Mk II and, perhaps, the Ki-43-II. I think we can all agree that wouldn't be an accurate place for ENY 5 to reside in terms of impact on the MA.
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The only thing a noob needs is patciance, attentivness to listen and, a teacher that knows what he's talking about
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If we were to use what a newbie could do with a fighter the 5 ENY fighters would be the A6Ms, Brewster, Hurricane Mk II and, perhaps, the Ki-43-II. I think we can all agree that wouldn't be an accurate place for ENY 5 to reside in terms of impact on the MA.
Bingo :aok ENY should be based on what an expert in the aircraft can make of it.
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A20 would be at 5, b17 at 5, p40 at 5, 38's at 5, everything at 5
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I like Pand's Signature picture, especially the nose art. :aok
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I like Pand's Signature picture, especially the nose art. :aok
I was wondering how long it would take before you'd notice! That was my uber Martlet during the Mediterranean Maelstrom scenario.
It's all in fun... we all know you're better @ AH than me! :cheers:
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I guess it depends on how one defines a noob. At about the one year mark most noobs seem to go through a 109 phase when they learn how to fight in the vertical. That's when we're most annoying because we think we've got teh skillz, unlike all those dweebs in easy mode planes.
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I was wondering how long it would take before you'd notice! That was my uber Martlet during the Mediterranean Maelstrom scenario.
It's all in fun... we all know you're better @ AH than me! :cheers:
"I'm living rent free right in there"
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ma1w37Z3lg1qz9bu3o1_500.png)
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I guess it depends on how one defines a noob. At about the one year mark most noobs seem to go through a 109 phase when they learn how to fight in the vertical. That's when we're most annoying because we think we've got teh skillz, unlike all those dweebs in easy mode planes.
I remember that day....wait... I'm still..there :bhead
Ki84 is better to learn in :old:
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The Ki-84-Ia is probably a 10-15 ENY fighter along with the Bf109K-4.
I'm ok with that only if this game fixes the Ki-84 tail bug (losing elevators @ 400 IAS in dive :headscratch:)
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I'm ok with that only if this game fixes the Ki-84 tail bug (losing elevators @ 400 IAS in dive :headscratch:)
Limit the g forces and you'll be fine
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I'm ok with that only if this game fixes the Ki-84 tail bug (losing elevators @ 400 IAS in dive :headscratch:)
Honestly, I would just like to know how the decision is/was made to have them rip off at all under those conditions... is it based on historical data, or just how the flight model dictates it should be... curious is all.
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Make k4 10 :banana:
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informationless thread if I ever saw one. Shame on all of you!
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Bout the ki84... this machine had what? 1.5mins of wep, recharges in 75seconds? <-- not sure, close though.
These wep canisters were not 'unlimited' and were probably based on what the plane's engine could take without exploding. Only in the game does stuff 'recharge!'
All one would have to do to beat a KI84 is make the opponent ki84 fly at wep for 1.5 mins and then it would become 'military power' junk... slow, lousy climb... less power = less turning at any speed.
Ki84 would sux without 'recharging wep' peridoso.
All luft fighter planes had long lasting wep and in most cases didn't need an engine overhaul like the p51s if engaged it at all.
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K4s, and all 109's - about 'good pilots'...
Off the top: any player can subscribe to a second account? Then put the second account on opposite team and you have both full radars... super situational awareness.
Knowing when other planes are coming to help your opponent is precious info. And with 2nd account, could maybe even put vehicle at a spawn somewhere... u even have an idea of the altitudes of contacts as well as their positions - just look around from vehicle?
This also helps a player know where the targets are... not like some of us who might fly around for an hour missing the fights.
Good pilots means players that have finally figured out a few things.
A few of the things:
1) K4: I scoot front window up till the top bar disappears (forward arrow), and F10 saved. Now I can see much better. If I push forward on hat, I get full normal view to see the lower gauges. Then zoom as required, slider for this too so we can 'snipe' as required too. And I too set convergence to 650 for all of it. Of course setting all the windows helps. Specifically though, I can't fly or aim k4's at all with the default front window setting. Adding here... 262's have frontal blind spots no matter what we do with settings... ABSOLUTELY ENRAGING! :headscratch:
2) WEP... have to turn this stuff off to aim... the nose is simply 'all over the place' too much to even begin to line target up.
Throttle control:
a) full power, wep on... cant aim and maneuvers are difficult. Addding, we use this to help in some maneuvers.
b) full throttle and wep off is when the plane is actually controllable.
c) if throttle is at less than full... combat trim starts throwing the plane in wrong directions. Best leave throttle at full... which is a handicapt to not really be able to slow down without suffering 'nose all over' penalties, especially in k4 because of the longer range of power... from zero to very much!
Using wep and torq to help control plane: this is like riding a bull...
When flying... especially in defensive maneuvers... sometimes we need to get our plane out of the way of the enemy's nose which is right behind us:
a) with full throttle, combat trim on, sometimes I might be turning one way, knowing enemy is about to have me lined up. This is when I sometimes let go of the controls, to see where the nose 'drifts to'... the question is where does the nose want to go? Now all we have to do is... help it go where it wants to go. Do throttle to full and add wep to make nose roll to the right more (throw plane right). Chop throttle entirely to make the plane roll the left more (throw plane left). (stick right, full power+wep vs stick left, chop power). kk
RULE of THUMB thing: if need go left, we stick to the left, and throttle back. If need to go right, stick right, full throttle and wep. <-- repeating self yeah yeah.
And then theres the stick and rudder, of course, to help the nose go where it wants to go. Half of where the nose is going is where the combat trim is sending it to, and this can be a problem because our inputs and combat trim can be cancelling each other out, eek. <-- means we are not moving at all relative to other plane.
This 'helping' the plane go where it wants to go, 'throwing,' is what can help us cause other plane to over shoot too. Use full rudder to slam on brakes.
the above: you cant just do this stuff on its own, must be looking out back window and timing this stuff or you will only be flopping around in front of your opponent who slows down a bit maybe because we lose E doing this.. and then he blasts us, ded!
Other deal: how I do: full left rudder, full left stick.... then pull back... suddenly plane is stalling/rolling hard. <-- can use that too.
Or opposite, full right stick, full right rudder, then pull back.
3) Combat trim and maneuvers: trim in here is like an extention of the stick... the stick alone doesn't allow us the full range.
We must have two distinct settings for trim when flying the k4. These settings only have to do with anything when combat trim is OFF!!!
So, we sometimes turn combat trim off, then: One setting is to free the tail to help turn using slider, 2nd is to have full control of all the trims ourselves.
We put one button to switch to mode A and another to switch to mode B, can have three mode settings, see clipboard options part where we custom the controls.
Standard flying around is set for 'we control elevator, and airleron and rudder stay where they were last time combat trim was on.
so with combat trim off: (normally we ALL fly with it on, but we turn it off for tricks, must do tricks for the k4.
A) first setting: TO TURN BETTER. The trim so that there is nothing on our stick controlling the airleron trim, and nothing for the rudder trim either. We do set one slider for elevator trim. So.. when we turn combat trim off... plane will not change the airleron or rudder trim settings because it JUST LEAVES IT WHERE THEY WERE. And we then slam the elevator trim to 'full back' to help us turn. When in a dogfight, I might turn combat trim on and back off just to get a new updated position for the airleron and rudder trim. See, game will set it for our speed. Point is that the plane WONT BE PULLING IN EVERY DIRECTION. We have 'isolated' the elevator trim to slider for us to use to help us turn when required.
B) Other 'mode' is to have all trims assigned to sliders.
Standard procedure for me when landing on at a field or especially on a CV, turn off combat trim and have full custom.
This means we have a slider for each controls: airleron, rudder, and elevator. Normally before a flight I center all three of these things. <-- preflight mandatory, don't want to find out they aren't center when in dogfight.
OK, so coming in for a landing, we turn combat trim off, and all of our trims are center so the trims aren't fighting our controlling the plane. Only the wind / speed of our plane is causing it to do stuff. So easier to counter with normal controls.
This also helps when we have half a wing blown off. I go to this mode, of full control trims, in this case.
If left wing is half'ed, turn rudder and airleron controls to the right side.
If right wing is halfed, turn rudder and airleron controls to the left side.
Trim control is a must to fly the k4 because at high speed, it locks up and doesn't turn at all then. And at no speed is it deflecting max.
The k4 'flip' that someone said... is climbing, switching combat trim off, with airleron and rudder trim non controlled so they just stay where they last were. Same time slam elevator trim slider, to full back and lowering flaps at the same time. Once the plane 'goes over' or 'after the flip'... turn combat trim back on, and click in a row 'flaps up' to get them to go up. For me, getting flaps up is a must because k4's nose 'bobs' all over with any flaps... and of course, wep off, for better aiming... breath out... fire, hopefully u hit. Throttle accordingly too yep.
I am sure that real pilots did all this, dropping flaps, and trimming to help turn, but even a real fighter pilot would have trouble with 'game specific' interface control set up stuff.
One reason I like the game is that it has this stuff.
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part2 lol, 10,000 characters limit. :confused:
Turning!
This said, this is standard controls for any plane, more required in a k4 though. So even pilots in spit16's can do this stuff too, k4 can improve turn, but so can spit! Hence, spit16 still out turns k4. Then theres that stall speed thing that makes plane fall over to the left when pulling back, extreme in 190s, but not in k4s. K4 also recovers from this stuff better. Also there is the G limit when we begin to black out. Without the elevator trim at full, I have a heck of a time 'blacking out' in a k4. Need to be at edge of black out to know you are turning at max for the speed you are at. Oh and trim doesn't help if the plane is stalling / shuddering already.
A) Max turning at high speed: you will be blacking out. Need trim to induce this. If blacking out too much, turn combat trim back on, let go of controls? Some inputs to hopefully throw off enemy if firing at you heh.
B) Stall speed turning... shuddering of plane and buzzer... trim wont help here. Flaps would, but supposively, flaps don't help 109s turn in our game? sigh... I think flaps helped in historic! Flaps do help get nose over in a loop, which is why 'vertical' fighting is a method for k4's.
So yeah, controls freeze at high speeds, trim becomes mandatory. Controls do easy in our k4 so really, speed is only for running, or trading for alt, climbing, when in k4. Have to trick other plane into fighting your fight like any other. Get the fight to where you are above him, and at your turn number speed... about 200mph in k4?
Fighting 'in verticle' means doing 'trim and drop flaps' repeatedly at the tops of loops in a row...
Ki84's and spits seem to turn well without trim tricks, why new players stay in them. Advanced players get the most using the trim stuff.
I like the g6, it can throw nose all around better than any of the other 109s, if you ask me.
Amazing that Luftwaffe had all the aces, and most of them got their kills in the 109g6... so yeah I think the modeling is cruel to the g6, and all the 109s for that matter!!! boo!
A step up from all of this is: fly with out combat trim.. but this means micro managing trim when trying to fly!
A chart for the positions of the trim at 100, 150, 200, 250, 300, 350, 400, 450mph would be nice to have for every plane in the game.
This would mean that our inputs and combat trim wouldn't be cancelling each other out... maybe combat trim adds too sometimes, who knows.
While were at it... printing out the speed and climb charts, ON THE SAME SCALE (mph range is same at bottom of chart), for all planes would be nice, on clear paper.
Just overlap your planes speed / climb paper with your opponents and you know stuff like you are faster above 7k in a k4 than an LA7!!!
Also on the papers, 'turn numbers' would be neat too. So you know which speed is ideal for your plane to turn fight, and which your opponents is.
Why 190a8's need to stay fast! At higher speed they turn better I think, we know they don't turn at all at mid and lower speed, they just fall over to the left, as modeled!
A stick that has all the sliders?
Saitek x52, just plane x52, no pro. Get rudder pedals also. Use amazon.com to get store to 'price match' to get lower price. Better to buy at store because if it had defects, you just only have to drive right back to the store. kk.
Historic my arse! luft had all the aces, required pilot, plane, amo, bullet proof glass, etc etc.. :banana:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_flying_aces
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three in a row!
Question: does anyone use airleron trim to help the 109 roll? Or to help any plane roll?
This is why the chart for trim settings at all the speeds would be neato, using manual trim - one could use airleron trim to roll and then pull back to shake off an plane behind us.
<--- gold stuff here.
example: k4 vs k4, in a dive or anyways, at high speed, both probably do the elevator trim trick to pull back the same...
but if the chased k4 mixed in airleron trim at high speed... whew. This would be a step better than the average 'ace.'
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Don't think the Ki-84 uses an additive for WEP, FVW. Nor did the Spitfire, Hurricane, Mosquito, Mustang, Airacobra, Warhawk or Lightning. I don't think the Yaks or La-5/5FN/7 did either. You also grossly misrepresent the need to overhaul a Merlin after WEP is used. It doesn't need an overhaul, it just moves up the maintenance schedule. That Spitfire Mk V that ran WEP for 30+ minutes didn't need its engine overhauled or replaced, and that WEP duration is something that the additive based Fw190 and Bf109 can't match.
Also, keep in mind that the Bf109s and Fw190s in AH shares that 1 second of cooldown equals 2 seconds of WEP.
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Karnak, the "WEP duration" for both the British and the Germans were both just maintenance regulations. There is nothing that leads me to believe that the Merlin could be run on WEP for longer than the DB or BMW. The MW-50 equipped 109s had 30 minutes worth of water-methanol, and that would be the only real limitation. The 190 used fuel as charge-coolant and could probably run on WEP until it ran out of fuel. What maintenance procedures each side had in cases of WEP overuse is of little interest.
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Karnak, the "WEP duration" for both the British and the Germans were both just maintenance regulations. There is nothing that leads me to believe that the Merlin could be run on WEP for longer than the DB or BMW. The MW-50 equipped 109s had 30 minutes worth of water-methanol, and that would be the only real limitation. The 190 used fuel as charge-coolant and could probably run on WEP until it ran out of fuel. What maintenance procedures each side had in cases of WEP overuse is of little interest.
Ah. I recalled the MW50 tanks holding enough for 10 minutes (which in WWII air combat is plenty for an interceptor), not 30 minutes. I don't think there is anything structural that would limit the DB or BMW engines any more than the Rolls Royce, Allison or Pratt & Whitney engines.
Mainly I was, futilely most likely, countering FVW's overhaul claim.
On a side note, the ability to design and manufacturer advanced and powerful engines seems to me to be what really set Germany, Japan, Britain, America and Russia apart from just about every other nation. France is likely in there too, but they got knocked out too fast. Italy had to rely on German engines for all of their most competitive aircraft. Other nations could design and built terrific airframes, but they had to put an American, German, French or British engine in it if they wanted it to be competitive. I am not aware of WWII era designs from other countries using Russian or Japanese engines, though had they been so inclined they had designs that would have been viable. I think that American, German and British engines in particular stand out as the world leaders.
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There is a whole official chart, somewhere on this site, that has the wep times for all the planes. The times were put for a reason, mmk.
109s and 190s are listed as having 10 or 15minutes of wep, while most planes in the game have 5 to 10 minutes of wep. Some even less, like the Ki84 had 1.5mins.
In the predecessor of Aces High, the game Air Warrior, wep did NOT recharge. Needed to re-arm for more wep. 109s and 190s had long wep times in there too. Wep was precious.
Oh and its called 'War Emergency Power' for a reason... it wasn't to be used for most of the flight, like 30 minutes! But, there were many types of wep systems.
I'm guessing that if there was a wep system for a spit that lasted 30mins, it didn't produce the same extra power as the one in the charts.
... so I'm saying 'nay' to spits and 30mins of wep. Take this one up with Hitech!
The hearsay, but I heard that it was Hitech who said "p51's needed engine overhauls if used wep..."
Post the chart for the wep times please, anyone...
German planes had all the aces... lol... must have had better something! Luftwaffe's 'german engineering' goes at the top front! Precision is how close the tolerances or measurements are in an engine's components, besides the design - Germany had both. How about that yak reference on Wikipedia that says the landing gears weren't interchangeable because they were different lengths... lol.
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On a side note, the ability to design and manufacturer advanced and powerful engines seems to me to be what really set Germany, Japan, Britain, America and Russia apart from just about every other nation. France is likely in there too, but they got knocked out too fast. Italy had to rely on German engines for all of their most competitive aircraft. Other nations could design and built terrific airframes, but they had to put an American, German, French or British engine in it if they wanted it to be competitive. I am not aware of WWII era designs from other countries using Russian or Japanese engines, though had they been so inclined they had designs that would have been viable. I think that American, German and British engines in particular stand out as the world leaders.
There were a number of other nations producing A/C engines before the war. Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria, Sweden, Italy (yes they did make engines) and probably many more. However after the war started these nations were conquered, or allied themselves with a major player. Also many of the the more famous engines were related:
Hispano-Suiza 12Y, RR Merlin, Klimov VK-series, Allison V-series are all related to some extent. The Wright Cyclone series was the basis for the Ash-82. The Pratt & Whitney Hornet is the grandfather of the BMW 801. The Nakajima Sakae was basically a modified Gnome-Rhône 14K, which itself was a development of the Bristol Jupiter... etc, etc, etc. So we're not really talking about just few nations with some amazing domestically designed engines. It's much more fuzzy than that.
Franz Von Werra seems like a lost cause...
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Yes, there were others, but they didn't seem to really be competitive. Or, perhaps, I am reading to much into Italy, which never seemed to be able to get a better domestic fighter engine than the 850hp Fiat the C.200 used.
As to the engines being related, yes, of course, but there are significant changes made too. For the Japanese I would look at the 1900hp Nakajima Homare, 2200hp Mitsubishi Ha-43 and 1850hp Mitsubishi Kasei as better examples of what the Japanese were able to do despite being, self professed, three years behind the USA in engine technology.
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German engines could use MW50, or GM-1 to with three rates of flow for various power outputs and durations. IIRC, the 10min limit was for maximum flow rate.
Also remember that they could probably just do the equivalent of red-lining the engine with the additives. As far as I'm aware, they didn't put RPM limiters on any of their engines.
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I had part of that backwards... eek
For pure rolling: (just tested) lol
Left: stick left and full throttle (plus wep)
Right: stick right, chop throttle.
109s have right rotating props blah blah
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German planes had all the aces... lol... must have had better something! Luftwaffe's 'german engineering' goes at the top front! Precision is how close the tolerances or measurements are in an engine's components, besides the design - Germany had both. How about that yak reference on Wikipedia that says the landing gears weren't interchangeable because they were different lengths... lol.
The Germans did have a better something - better chance to meet an enemy and a better chance to fly again after getting shot down.
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The Germans did have a better something - better chance to meet an enemy and a better chance to fly again after getting shot down.
A "target rich environment" which is a euphemism for "losing".
Johnnie Johnson was once asked by a reporter why he didn't get as many kills as Hartman. Johnson's response was that he didn't even see that many enemy aircraft.
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All the claims of being on every front of the war and beating their opponents without any help from USA or anything...
"England couldn't find targets?" :rofl
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Yes, there were others, but they didn't seem to really be competitive. Or, perhaps, I am reading to much into Italy, which never seemed to be able to get a better domestic fighter engine than the 850hp Fiat the C.200 used.
As to the engines being related, yes, of course, but there are significant changes made too. For the Japanese I would look at the 1900hp Nakajima Homare, 2200hp Mitsubishi Ha-43 and 1850hp Mitsubishi Kasei as better examples of what the Japanese were able to do despite being, self professed, three years behind the USA in engine technology.
If we compare the engine development up till 1938 many nations were making pretty good engines in the 700-900 hp range. Fiat produced a very successful radial engine, the A.74 series, which was used on a number of WWII Italian aircraft and produced up to 1,400 hp in its later versions. The Czech produced their own versions of the Hispano-Suiza 12Y.
However, once the war broke out in 1939/40 these nations where either conquered by the Axis and forced to switch production to suit their new masters, or allied themselves with the axis and got access to the new German engines so any further domestic development was not needed; also Spain and Sweden started producing DB-600 series engines during the war, despite being only passive allies with Germany.
Even in America we see the same when the Allison V-engine proved unsuitable to power the new P-51; the Americans didn't design a new domestic engine for the P-51 because their ally Britain had one that did the job admirably. So the Americans started producing Merlins.
The Nakajima Homare was a development of the Sakae which was a development of the Gnome-Rhone 14K. The Mitsubishi Ha-43 and Kasei were both developments of the Pratt and Whitney Hornet.
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All the claims of being on every front of the war and beating their opponents without any help from USA or anything...
"England couldn't find targets?" :rofl
Johnnie Johnson is England now?
Wow. You're totally insane.
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The Nakajima Homare was a development of the Sakae which was a development of the Gnome-Rhone 14K. The Mitsubishi Ha-43 and Kasei were both developments of the Pratt and Whitney Hornet.
Yup. But the Japanese engineers, who had pretty much just been copying American and European designs and innovations, were forced to come up with solutions on their own to the problems they encountered as higher power levels were reached. Their solutions were often different, but still successful, as compared to the solutions found by American engineers.
These are interesting reads:
Mitsubishi:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/japan/ATIG-Report-24.pdf
Nakajima:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/japan/ATIG-Report-45.pdf
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Indeed. I'm not arguing the fact that other nations started producing Axis or Allied engines after war broke out. I'm questioning your conclusion that the switch to Axis or Allied engines was because they couldn't develop domestic designs that were competitive. I'm arguing that because of the war the other nations were either forced to switch production, or were given the latest Axis or Allied engine designs, thus making further domestic development unnecessary.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnnie_Johnson_(RAF_officer)
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnnie_Johnson_(RAF_officer)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England
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:rofl
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informationless thread if I ever saw one. Shame on all of you!
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Bout the ki84... this machine had what? 1.5mins of wep, recharges in 75seconds? <-- not sure, close though.
These wep canisters were not 'unlimited' and were probably based on what the plane's engine could take without exploding. Only in the game does stuff 'recharge!'
All one would have to do to beat a KI84 is make the opponent ki84 fly at wep for 1.5 mins and then it would become 'military power' junk... slow, lousy climb... less power = less turning at any speed.
Ki84 would sux without 'recharging wep' peridoso.
All luft fighter planes had long lasting wep and in most cases didn't need an engine overhaul like the p51s if engaged it at all.
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K4s, and all 109's - about 'good pilots'...
Off the top: any player can subscribe to a second account? Then put the second account on opposite team and you have both full radars... super situational awareness.
Knowing when other planes are coming to help your opponent is precious info. And with 2nd account, could maybe even put vehicle at a spawn somewhere... u even have an idea of the altitudes of contacts as well as their positions - just look around from vehicle?
This also helps a player know where the targets are... not like some of us who might fly around for an hour missing the fights.
Good pilots means players that have finally figured out a few things.
A few of the things:
1) K4: I scoot front window up till the top bar disappears (forward arrow), and F10 saved. Now I can see much better. If I push forward on hat, I get full normal view to see the lower gauges. Then zoom as required, slider for this too so we can 'snipe' as required too. And I too set convergence to 650 for all of it. Of course setting all the windows helps. Specifically though, I can't fly or aim k4's at all with the default front window setting. Adding here... 262's have frontal blind spots no matter what we do with settings... ABSOLUTELY ENRAGING! :headscratch:
2) WEP... have to turn this stuff off to aim... the nose is simply 'all over the place' too much to even begin to line target up.
Throttle control:
a) full power, wep on... cant aim and maneuvers are difficult. Addding, we use this to help in some maneuvers.
b) full throttle and wep off is when the plane is actually controllable.
c) if throttle is at less than full... combat trim starts throwing the plane in wrong directions. Best leave throttle at full... which is a handicapt to not really be able to slow down without suffering 'nose all over' penalties, especially in k4 because of the longer range of power... from zero to very much!
Using wep and torq to help control plane: this is like riding a bull...
When flying... especially in defensive maneuvers... sometimes we need to get our plane out of the way of the enemy's nose which is right behind us:
a) with full throttle, combat trim on, sometimes I might be turning one way, knowing enemy is about to have me lined up. This is when I sometimes let go of the controls, to see where the nose 'drifts to'... the question is where does the nose want to go? Now all we have to do is... help it go where it wants to go. Do throttle to full and add wep to make nose roll to the right more (throw plane right). Chop throttle entirely to make the plane roll the left more (throw plane left). (stick right, full power+wep vs stick left, chop power). kk
RULE of THUMB thing: if need go left, we stick to the left, and throttle back. If need to go right, stick right, full throttle and wep. <-- repeating self yeah yeah.
And then theres the stick and rudder, of course, to help the nose go where it wants to go. Half of where the nose is going is where the combat trim is sending it to, and this can be a problem because our inputs and combat trim can be cancelling each other out, eek. <-- means we are not moving at all relative to other plane.
This 'helping' the plane go where it wants to go, 'throwing,' is what can help us cause other plane to over shoot too. Use full rudder to slam on brakes.
the above: you cant just do this stuff on its own, must be looking out back window and timing this stuff or you will only be flopping around in front of your opponent who slows down a bit maybe because we lose E doing this.. and then he blasts us, ded!
Other deal: how I do: full left rudder, full left stick.... then pull back... suddenly plane is stalling/rolling hard. <-- can use that too.
Or opposite, full right stick, full right rudder, then pull back.
3) Combat trim and maneuvers: trim in here is like an extention of the stick... the stick alone doesn't allow us the full range.
We must have two distinct settings for trim when flying the k4. These settings only have to do with anything when combat trim is OFF!!!
So, we sometimes turn combat trim off, then: One setting is to free the tail to help turn using slider, 2nd is to have full control of all the trims ourselves.
We put one button to switch to mode A and another to switch to mode B, can have three mode settings, see clipboard options part where we custom the controls.
Standard flying around is set for 'we control elevator, and airleron and rudder stay where they were last time combat trim was on.
so with combat trim off: (normally we ALL fly with it on, but we turn it off for tricks, must do tricks for the k4.
A) first setting: TO TURN BETTER. The trim so that there is nothing on our stick controlling the airleron trim, and nothing for the rudder trim either. We do set one slider for elevator trim. So.. when we turn combat trim off... plane will not change the airleron or rudder trim settings because it JUST LEAVES IT WHERE THEY WERE. And we then slam the elevator trim to 'full back' to help us turn. When in a dogfight, I might turn combat trim on and back off just to get a new updated position for the airleron and rudder trim. See, game will set it for our speed. Point is that the plane WONT BE PULLING IN EVERY DIRECTION. We have 'isolated' the elevator trim to slider for us to use to help us turn when required.
B) Other 'mode' is to have all trims assigned to sliders.
Standard procedure for me when landing on at a field or especially on a CV, turn off combat trim and have full custom.
This means we have a slider for each controls: airleron, rudder, and elevator. Normally before a flight I center all three of these things. <-- preflight mandatory, don't want to find out they aren't center when in dogfight.
OK, so coming in for a landing, we turn combat trim off, and all of our trims are center so the trims aren't fighting our controlling the plane. Only the wind / speed of our plane is causing it to do stuff. So easier to counter with normal controls.
This also helps when we have half a wing blown off. I go to this mode, of full control trims, in this case.
If left wing is half'ed, turn rudder and airleron controls to the right side.
If right wing is halfed, turn rudder and airleron controls to the left side.
Trim control is a must to fly the k4 because at high speed, it locks up and doesn't turn at all then. And at no speed is it deflecting max.
The k4 'flip' that someone said... is climbing, switching combat trim off, with airleron and rudder trim non controlled so they just stay where they last were. Same time slam elevator trim slider, to full back and lowering flaps at the same time. Once the plane 'goes over' or 'after the flip'... turn combat trim back on, and click in a row 'flaps up' to get them to go up. For me, getting flaps up is a must because k4's nose 'bobs' all over with any flaps... and of course, wep off, for better aiming... breath out... fire, hopefully u hit. Throttle accordingly too yep.
I am sure that real pilots did all this, dropping flaps, and trimming to help turn, but even a real fighter pilot would have trouble with 'game specific' interface control set up stuff.
One reason I like the game is that it has this stuff.
Wow,not sure what to say about this wall of...... well not even sure of that!
Plz don't post anything like this in help and training,new players are often confussed enough.
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*********
Bout the ki84... this machine had what? 1.5mins of wep, recharges in 75seconds? <-- not sure, close though.
These wep canisters were not 'unlimited' and were probably based on what the plane's engine could take without exploding. Only in the game does stuff 'recharge!'
All one would have to do to beat a KI84 is make the opponent ki84 fly at wep for 1.5 mins and then it would become 'military power' junk... slow, lousy climb... less power = less turning at any speed.
Ki84 would sux without 'recharging wep' peridoso.
All luft fighter planes had long lasting wep and in most cases didn't need an engine overhaul like the p51s if engaged it at all.
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Intelligent speculation is sometimes useful. What you're doing, less than useful. The real Hayate employed a water-methanol injector system, just like a lot of the German aircraft including the K-4.
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I would like to reiterate that K4 pilots are noobs and obviously have no skill.
Thank you, that is all :salute
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I would like to reiterate that K4 pilots are noobs and obviously have no skill.
Thank you, that is all :salute
65 taters per kill, sounds pretty good to me!
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ooohkaaay, none of us are super duper experts on wep systems for all planes. Still, so sorry but these planes have wep durations for a reason...
Example: some are water powered systems... why not just have 100 more injectors spraying water into the engine for even more power! The plane would do 100 x topspeed?
instead of 400mph, the plane would go 40,000mph! whooo hooo!
And yeah, that post helps 109 pilots to not become lawndarts... etc, kk, thx!
Another interesting topic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_pie
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Water-Methanol doesn't get injected into the engine.
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In the predecessor of Aces High, the game Air Warrior, wep did NOT recharge.
WEP does not "recharge" in AH. Once you use all of your WEP, it's gone until you get a new plane.
ack-ack
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Not true AKAK, the recharge is very noticible in certain aircraft.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/WEP
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WEP does not "recharge" in AH. Once you use all of your WEP, it's gone until you get a new plane.
Absolutely not. WEP in AH recharges ad infinitum. Once the "cool down time" is over, you have full WEP again. You can do this cycle without end as long as you have fuel. That gives planes like the Ta 152H with it's 10/5 min cycle really an edge over those with a slower cycle.
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Thanks Delirium, thanks Lusche
to karnak and akak:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OMIfeBc_gk
'hey hey, goodbye!' hahaha
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Thanks Delirium, thanks Lusche
to karnak and akak:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OMIfeBc_gk
'hey hey, goodbye!' hahaha
Oh, a griefer eh?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bit9YxtTamY
Woo woo woo woooo.
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Oh, a griefer eh?
No, worse, a Schlowy...
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(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_po70GQqskBc/TFgkhqNkzuI/AAAAAAAABMM/QdZDK-nkKqk/s1600/Ep3+Cowardly+lion.jpg)
Kourage!
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(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_po70GQqskBc/TFgkhqNkzuI/AAAAAAAABMM/QdZDK-nkKqk/s1600/Ep3+Cowardly+lion.jpg)
Kourage!
arlo, this is the wrong thread. Pictures of ayers go in saidforum :neener:
btw you need a haircut :old:
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arlo, this is the wrong thread. Pictures of ayers go in saidforum :neener:
btw you need a haircut :old:
Then I suppose I shouldn't be posting yours here, either. ;)
(http://poietes.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/if-i-only-had-a-brain.gif)
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Was going through a rough patch with my heroin withdrawls and divorce.
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Absolutely not. WEP in AH recharges ad infinitum. Once the "cool down time" is over, you have full WEP again. You can do this cycle without end as long as you have fuel. That gives planes like the Ta 152H with it's 10/5 min cycle really an edge over those with a slower cycle.
The question I have is why the Merlins in American aircraft have a 5/5 minute WEP cycle and the Merlins in British aircraft have a 5/10 minute WEP cycle. This really puts WEP based fighters like the Mosquito Mk VI and Spitfire Mk XIV (Griffon, I know) at a relative disadvantage.
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The question I have is why the Merlins in American aircraft have a 5/5 minute WEP cycle and the Merlins in British aircraft have a 5/10 minute WEP cycle. This really puts WEP based fighters like the Mosquito Mk VI and Spitfire Mk XIV (Griffon, I know) at a relative disadvantage.
Good question!
(I did not know there was a difference, but if this is the case then I really want to know the reason)
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uhh... not sure what in game tests show, but chart says its worse...
p51's are 5mins wep / 10 mins recharge.
spits, mossys, and hurrys are 5mins wep / 15minutes recharge.
In airwarrior3, I think the 109F had 15minutes wep... btw.
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You're right, FVW. Thanks for the correction on WEP cycles. 5/15 is still a disadvantage compared to a 5/10 cycle.
Also, to be clear, I don't begrudge the German aircraft their 10/5 or Ki-84 it's 1.5/.75 mintute WEP cycles at all. It is one of the advantages you get for choosing one of those fighters. The Ki-84's is even a two edged one as it has the disadvanttage of a short sustained WEP. That really affects how I use those fighters and gives the game more depth.
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The 190A's wep-cycle is 10 minutes / re-spawn new plane.
With little over 30 minutes flying time ( without etc-droptank) you will never get back a out-wepped 190 to normal temperature without reduce throttle very aggressively.
difference flying with / without etc-rack translates to being caught by spit16/ki84, not being caught chased low.
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I have the impression that the various cooling times are pretty arbitrary considering the very simple and generic way WEP is simulated.
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With little over 30 minutes flying time ( without etc-droptank) you will never get back a out-wepped 190 to normal temperature without reduce throttle very aggressively
There's a misconception in it: Reducing the throttle has no influence on "cool down" times. It's not based on temperatures, it's a function only depending on a timer.
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I have the impression that the various cooling times are pretty arbitrary considering the very simple and generic way WEP is simulated.
I'd imagine so. I just want to know why my Merlins take 50% longer to cool off compared to a P-51's Merline. Heck, the Spitfire Mk IX and the P-51B have the same engine, just the Spitfire's is a Rolls Royce built Merlin 61 and the P-51B's is a Packard built Merlin 61 under an American designation. And it can't be the Packard vs Rolls Royce issue as the Spitfire Mk XVI and Lancaster Mk III (not that I have tested the WEP cycle on the Lancaster) both use Packard built Merlins.
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There's a misconception in it: Reducing the throttle has no influence on "cool down" times. It's not based on temperatures, it's a function only depending on a timer.
I think Save meant, if the trottle is reduced, the plane might have enough flight time to recharge the wep.
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I'd imagine so. I just want to know why my Merlins take 50% longer to cool off compared to a P-51's Merline. Heck, the Spitfire Mk IX and the P-51B have the same engine, just the Spitfire's is a Rolls Royce built Merlin 61 and the P-51B's is a Packard built Merlin 61 under an American designation. And it can't be the Packard vs Rolls Royce issue as the Spitfire Mk XVI and Lancaster Mk III (not that I have tested the WEP cycle on the Lancaster) both use Packard built Merlins.
Factors like coolant formulation, Radiator performance, spark timing settings (how the engine is tuned by each manufacturer, inlet air temps (airframe may make a difference here), octane ratings, fuel additives would make a difference and could vary from user to user. Don;t know if any of that was factored in, just saying that engine "hardware" in not the only factor determining how hard you can push an engine. :salute
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There's a misconception in it: Reducing the throttle has no influence on "cool down" times. It's not based on temperatures, it's a function only depending on a timer.
hmm. Are you sure? I thought, and seemed to experience that it is tied to the temprature model which had load as a factor. Perhaps even, alt (air temp variation).
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For German and US aircraft, its not heat-based, its just a matter of running out laughing gas or water mixture to inject into the cylinders.
The P-51D used water-injection IIRC, and so it too should have a set limit on WEP time. I think its the same for most if not all US fighters, though I'm not 100% sure.
The UK just ramped up the boost pressure on the superchargers, and I have no idea how the Japanese or Russians did it.
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P-51B and D had a Merlin. They use the same method the RAF used on their Merlins, higher boost settings. The Allisons in the P-38s, P-39s, P-40s and P-51s also simply used higher boost settings.
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And the same with most German aircraft in this game. Only the 109G-14 and K-4 have MW50; the other 109s don't. The Dora and the Ta152 are the only 190s with MW50, although the A-8 has C-3 injection, but that's just fuel.
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P-51B and D had a Merlin. They use the same method the RAF used on their Merlins, higher boost settings. The Allisons in the P-38s, P-39s, P-40s and P-51s also simply used higher boost settings.
Hmmm.... Could've sworn the US used a water injection system :headscratch:.
And Scholz, doesn't our 152 also have the GM-1 system as well?
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Hmmm.... Could've sworn the US used a water injection system :headscratch:.
And Scholz, doesn't our 152 also have the GM-1 system as well?
P-47(later) and P-63 used water injection.
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F4U-4 also used water injection, and yes, the Ta152 also uses GM1, but not with MW50. It uses MW50 at the lower altitudes and GM1 at very high altitudes. It's the only NOS equipped plane in the game.
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"NOS" is an abbreviation of the company name "nitrous oxide systems".
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Oh I thought it meant "new old stock" :old:
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Oh I thought it meant "new old stock" :old:
it does :aok
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NOS . . .
No wonder I fell in love.
:angel:
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Sooo...did the TA 152 have "Mugen Power" with Asian lettering stickers on it, along with the blue "NOS" with the "S" having an arrow on it sticker as well? How about a big 3 foot high wing on TOP of the rudder, coil over springs on the landing gear, ridiculously loud subwoofer for the radio, and a pair of little blue LED lights on the engine cowling?
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Everyone knows stickers add horsepower! And ridiculous large rims with tires only pained on.
Back in 2004 I totally riced out my 109G-2...
http://vimeo.com/58005024
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Sooo...did the TA 152 have "Mugen Power" with Asian lettering stickers on it, along with the blue "NOS" with the "S" having an arrow on it sticker as well? How about a big 3 foot high wing on TOP of the rudder, coil over springs on the landing gear, ridiculously loud subwoofer for the radio, and a pair of little blue LED lights on the engine cowling?
:rofl
:lol :rofl
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For German and US aircraft, its not heat-based, its just a matter of running out laughing gas or water mixture to inject into the cylinders.
The P-51D used water-injection IIRC, and so it too should have a set limit on WEP time. I think its the same for most if not all US fighters, though I'm not 100% sure.
The UK just ramped up the boost pressure on the superchargers, and I have no idea how the Japanese or Russians did it.
No water injection on P-51s... The only USAAF fighters to employ water injection (ADI) were the P-47s. Late C and early D models were field modified and later D versions had it factory installed.
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Hmmm.... I know I've read somewhere the P-51 used water injection. Have to find which book it is and mark that part as incorrect.
So would our D-25 be water-injected? Or would that be more in the D-30 range?
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Hmmm.... I know I've read somewhere the P-51 used water injection. Have to find which book it is and mark that part as incorrect.
So would our D-25 be water-injected? Or would that be more in the D-30 range?
All our Jugs are water injected. Earlier D razorbacks did not come with the wanter injection from the factory, but all were retrofitted. There are rumors that some pilots removed the water injection system to save weight and instead simply over boosted their engines.
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Mosquito NF.Mk XIX used nitrous oxide as well. Kinda odd as it had the same low blown Merlin 25s as the Mk VI we have in AH.
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What would be the advantage to a water injection system? Less engine wear? Higher power compared to ramping up boost pressure?
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What would be the advantage to a water injection system? Less engine wear? Higher power compared to ramping up boost pressure?
That would probably vary from engine model to engine model.
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It was primarily an anti-knocking agent allowing for higher boost pressure without detonation. Through vaporization it cooled the compressed air in the supercharger making the air denser. A poor-mans intercooler.
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Mosquito NF.Mk XIX used nitrous oxide as well. Kinda odd as it had the same low blown Merlin 25s as the Mk VI we have in AH.
That's why it needed it. The Supercharger couldn't provide enough air at higher alt. With a low-blower and NOS they could get good engine performance at all altitudes. My guess anyway...
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It was primarily an anti-knocking agent allowing for higher boost pressure without detonation. Through vaporization it cooled the compressed air in the supercharger making the air denser. A poor-mans intercooler.
This would be because of the poor fuel Germany used?
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Germany's aviation fuel was up there on a level with the western Allies. The radial 190s used C3, a synthetic fuel that was equal to 100/130 octane avgas. In late 1944 C3 would be close to 100/145 octane. The 109s flew on B4 which early in the was was about 90 octane, but later in the war was equal to 100/110 octane. The late-war DB605D (109G-10/K-4) could use both fuels and MW50. It produced 1,650 hp on B4 alone. 1,850 hp on C3 alone or B4+MW50. With C3 and MW50 it produced upwards of 2,000 hp. However, few 109 units got C3 fuel because the 190s needed it. In AH the 109K-4 has B4+MW50.
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Oh, I thought B4 was lower octane fuel, and C3 was higher octane fuel that came around later.
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B4 could be produced from oil, so it was available in greater quantity. C3 was an expensive synthetic fuel produced from coal in large chemical factories.
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Could a case be made for modeling a seperate 109K with C3 fuel and MW 50? Probably would be perked, since the K4 is close to that threshold as is, but would be very interesting to see.
Also, would be cool to see a Spit 14 modeled with 150 octane fuel. As for the rest, I'm not as enthisastic; even if its not likely, I just have this vision of AH being flooded with 150 octane P-51's, Mossies, and Spit 16s :uhoh.
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As long as it's perked it will keep the numbers down. I'd very much like to see a C3 fueled 109K and 100/150 or 115/145 fueled Merlin and Griffon engined birds.
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you guys can have what ever you want....
as long as I get my 4 20mm Ki84 :rock
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you guys can have what ever you want....
as long as I get my 4 20mm Ki84 :rock
:aok