Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: texasfighter on June 17, 2013, 12:12:00 PM
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The number of pilot wounds received is just BS. I fly a P47 which was known to be a tough aircraft that could take a lot of damage. The pilot was well protected (read Robert Johnson's book). But if I get hit (but not killed on the first hit), way over 50% of the time I get a pilot wound. That's just BS. So I guess HTC believes that over 50% of the guys in the 56th fighter group went down because of pilot wounds. Bull. Absolute total Bull.
Of all the times I have been hit, I think I have had one rudder shot away and a couple ailerons shot away. That's all. Lots of oil leaks. But pilot wounds .... 40-50 maybe. Way, way out of proportion. I guess the whole freaking German Luftwaffe fighter force either blew up on first hit or died/ were put out of action because of pilot wounds.
Died twice today from the same bomber pilot from pilot wounds. Couldn't land or even ditch my plane. So I know I have to just bail out if I have a pilot wound if more than about 14k away from base. So I guess in WWII no-one ever got home if they were pilot wounded. What complete BS!
So I believe strongly that a) there are too many pilot wounds proportionately to plane damage; b) pilot wounds result in death way too fast.
I will look up and start adding to this string stories of real pilots that were wounded but made it back to base. I'll start here with mention of a pilot in the Spanish Civil War (before Pearl Harbor) that was wounded in a fighter duel and landed. His name was Derek Dickinson and he defeated Bruno Mussolini in a pre-arranged fighter duel. He had 326 bullet holes in this plane, was shot in his left arm but still landed his plane. Read about it in "The Ragged, Rugged Warriors" by Martin Caidin. (Edit: ok we'll through this story out. I'll add other ones.)
Tex78
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Your not fast enough and are too close to the bombers :old:
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I will look up and start adding to this string stories of real pilots that were wounded but made it back to base.
Could you also add the string of stories of real pilots who never where wounded but did NOT made it back to base?
Yes, there is actually a point hidden in that line. Can you spot it? ;)
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...
I will look up and start adding to this string stories of real pilots that were wounded but made it back to base. I'll start here with mention of a pilot in China before Pearl Harbor that was wounded in a fighter duel and landed. His name was Derek Dickinson and he defeated Bruno Mussolini in a pre-arranged fighter duel. He had 326 bullet holes in this plane, was shot in his left arm but still landed his plane. Read about it in "The Ragged, Rugged Warriors" by Martin Caidin.
Tex78
Two minutes web search reveals that the seldom-accurate Mr. Caidin was repeating what was likely a bogus story told by a mercenary who flew for the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War.
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Page 110 of "Airmen Without Portfolio," by John Carver Edwards states, "Once back home, Dickinson recounted to a Herald Tribune reporter his account of an air duel with Bruno Mussolini, the Duce's youngest son. The contest reportedly took place on Septermber 28, 1937. Dickinson claimed that both he and Mussolini flew monoplanes (I-16 and a Fiat G 50) and that each pilot had two observation planes in tow as witnesses. The Spanish subsecretary of Air, Augustin Sanz Sainz, honored Dickinson by serving as one of his observers. The early phases of the dogfight resulted in a draw, claimed the American, until he circled behind the Italian and opened fire; whereupon Mussolini signaled his surrender. Dickinson told reporters that he ended the battle and returned to base. Perhaps the most bizarre tale to emerge from the Spanish Civil War, Dickinson sold the account to For Men magazine and later condensed for Reader's Digest.
Mr Edwards continued, "In addition to contemporary statements by Tinker, Baumler, and other volunteer pilots concerning Dickinson's penchant for exaggeration, aviation historians have since branded his chronicle as rubbish. First, Bruno Mussolini arrived in Spain in late September 1937 as a bomber pilot. He subsequently participated in twenty-seven sorties in a Savoia-Marchetti SM 79 and returned to Italy in March 1938, reportedly because the Republican Air Ministry had put a bounty on his head. Second, his alleged fighter, the Fiat G 50, was the sole Italian monoplane to appear in Spain, and did not debut until January 1939. At the time of the so-called duel, there were only two prototypes in existence. Third, Dickinson's primary witness, Sanz Sainz, who commanded the airfield at Alcala de Henares, had perished in a bombing raid six months prior to the Dickinson-Mussolini aerial engagement (March 23, 1937)."
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I get a lot of pilot wounds. Way too many, even when moving very fast in relation to bombers. Even through the belly of the aircraft (I call these buttshot).
From viewing the films where wounded, it looks like there's a zone on the fuselage where if there's a hit from any direction you automatically get a pilot wound, with possibly some randomizing thrown in there.
I agree too many pilot wounds. I have films to show how some pilot wounds are just retarded. :headscratch:
I really like this game and don't plan on leaving but pilot wounds are sometimes too much and I log off because of frustration. :huh
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Could you also add the string of stories of real pilots who never where wounded but did NOT made it back to base?
Yes, there is actually a point hidden in that line. Can you spot it? ;)
To many typos distracting me from the hidden point.
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Make pilot wounds have three types of severity.
Hits from LMG rounds (.30 Cal and 7.7mm) = no black outs, sluggish controls.
Hits from HMG (.50 cal and 13mm) = same as current
Hits from cannons = faster black outs
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Make pilot wounds have three types of severity.
Hits from LMG rounds (.30 Cal and 7.7mm) = no black outs, sluggish controls.
Hits from HMG (.50 cal and 13mm) = same as current
Hits from cannons = faster black outs
A direct hit from a cannon anywhere on the pilot's body wouldn't result in a
'pilot wound'. It would result in a 'pilot dead'.
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Robert Johnson flew P47s in the 56th Fighter Group. Below taken from Wikipedia but the basic story has been told in several other sources including the history channel:
One of the 56th's worst setbacks occurred on June 26, 1943, when 48 P-47Cs left a forward operating base at RAF Manston late in the afternoon to provide escort for B-17 Flying Fortress bombers returning from a mission against Villacoublay airfield in the Paris suburbs. As the P-47s approached the rendezvous point near Forges-les-Eaux, they were jumped from above and behind by 16 Focke-Wulf Fw 190s of II Gruppe, JG 26. The first pass scattered the Thunderbolts, and Johnson's aircraft, flying at the rear of the 61st Squadron's formation, was seriously damaged by a 20 mm shell that exploded in his cockpit and ruptured his hydraulic system. Burned and partially blinded by hydraulic fluid, Johnson tried to bail out, but could not open his shattered canopy.
After pulling out of an uncontrolled spin and with the fire amazingly going out on its own, Johnson headed for the English Channel, but was intercepted by a single Fw 190. Unable to fight back, he maneuvered while under a series of attacks, and although sustaining further heavy damage from both 7.92mm and 20mm rounds, managed to survive until the German ran out of ammunition, who, after saluting him by rocking his wings, turned back. His opponent has never been identified, but Johnson could have been one of three victories claimed that day by the commander of III/JG 2, Oberst Egon Mayer. After landing, Johnson tried to count the bullet holes in his airplane, but when he passed 200, including 21, 20 mm cannon shell impacts, without even moving around the aircraft, he gave up.
While Johnson made it back to crash land at Manston, four other pilots of the 56th FG were killed in action. A fifth, able to extend only one of his plane's landing gear struts, had to bail out over the English Channel and was rescued north of Yarmouth. Five other Thunderbolts suffered battle damage. Johnson suffered shrapnel wounds and minor burns to his face, hands, and legs, and was awarded the Purple Heart. He resumed flying missions on July 1.
To my point: Seven P47s suffered battle damage and returned. Four were killed in action. Granted, I don't have evidence how they died but it seems to be a real stretch to think that they were all pilot wounded and died when they bled out (which is what AH assumes). Most likely their planes blew up or were so severely damaged that they could not bail out. Again my point is that AH has a) too many pilot wounds assigned b) that are modeled with the pilot blacking out inceasingly over the time of the remaining flight. There should be other creative ways to model pilot wounds that don't involve the accelerating black outs. We have already had one good suggestion with the sloppy controls. I would add another possibility: a change to the visual to simulate pain but not a black out. The visual bounces a few times with appropriate sound added. Kind of like a migraine simulation.
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Make pilot wounds have three types of severity.
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Hits from cannons =
permanent blackouts due to the large diameter hole in the pilot's body? :D
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I've always felt the pilot wounds were something a bit gamey, pretty much a second chance if your cockpit gets hit with anything bigger than a .30. I'd be curious to know what the stats were on pilot survival if the armor of the cockpit was breached. I'm guessing it wasn't tremendously high.
Wiley.
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Tex,
I understand your complaint but I would like to point out a couple of things.
1, Were you on the buffs 6? That would place the guns aiming at the front/cockpit area of the aircraft.
2, Were you attacking from a high frontal position? The top turret would target same area as the tail guns.
3, I can almost bet you if you were shooting at the 47 from the buffs you'd think they were too tough..... sometimes you're the windshield sometimes you're the bug.
If you think PW are bad in the 47,try a 110,38 or a mossie and you'll soon think the 47 isn't that bad!
I do wish we had a more detailed damage model but it is what it is,dont let a bad sortie or 2 ruin all the fun you can have.
:salute
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It takes a long time before the pilot dies from bleed out in aces... so you should have no reason not to be able to land unless you have flown 2 sectors from a friendly base... or get so fixated on revenge for making you bleed that you just keep at it till the pilots demise...
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Tex,
I understand your complaint but I would like to point out a couple of things.
1, Were you on the buffs 6? That would place the guns aiming at the front/cockpit area of the aircraft.
2, Were you attacking from a high frontal position? The top turret would target same area as the tail guns.
3, I can almost bet you if you were shooting at the 47 from the buffs you'd think they were too tough..... sometimes you're the windshield sometimes you're the bug.
If you think PW are bad in the 47,try a 110,38 or a mossie and you'll soon think the 47 isn't that bad!
I do wish we had a more detailed damage model but it is what it is,dont let a bad sortie or 2 ruin all the fun you can have.
:salute
Just a small squeak of anecdote, but I fly the D11 a fair bit. I get PWed I would say at least 75% of the times I get hit. I always attribute it to people aiming more for the cockpit because it's a soft target.
Wiley.
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Just a small squeak of anecdote, but I fly the D11 a fair bit. I get PWed I would say at least 75% of the times I get hit. I always attribute it to people aiming more for the cockpit because it's a soft target.
Wiley.
Willey,
I wasn't disputing the PW's in the 47,I was merely pointing out that it happens more often in twins for whatever reason. Might be as you say a soft target,a larger target,whatever. I think my real point was not to let a couple of bad sorties ruin anyones fun.
:salute
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Willey,
I wasn't disputing the PW's in the 47,I was merely pointing out that it happens more often in twins for whatever reason. Might be as you say a soft target,a larger target,whatever. I think my real point was not to let a couple of bad sorties ruin anyones fun.
:salute
Sorry if I came across combative, it wasn't meant as such. :salute I agree, excrement occurs. TBH it seems to me PW's are up across the board for some reason, but it could be a simple case of counting the hits and ignoring the misses too. On a psychological level, I wish there was a way to know how close my 75% number is. ;)
In any case, if I get PW'ed I look at it as 'I should be dead now, let's see if I can get home/survive the engagement.'
Wiley.
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there were far fewer pilots getting wounded and talking about it than there were those who died from their wounds and never got a chance to tell their tales...if you're pissed because you got pw'd attacking bombers, you were doing something wrong.
Of all the times I have been hit, I think I have had one rudder shot away and a couple ailerons shot away. That's all. Lots of oil leaks.
that right there tells me there is nothing wrong with the way the 47s are modelled...
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You think that's bad for modelling?
Try flying a 410 and seeing how easily the mechanics for the tail gun are knocked out, at least 60 or 70% of the time you lose both guns simultaneously to a slew of the first incoming shells. It is not fun at all.
To make things worse, the rear guns aren't even aligned vertically for 600 yards, the bullets at no time actually travel above the gunsite or are converged in any way to meet with the intended destination range making it impossible to hit out of first instinct unless you have a custom gunsite (it just reverses the forward gunsite as well for the rear position). By the time you realise you have to adjust for the target, it is usually too late, and the guns are dead.
(http://i.imgur.com/q3r40wp.jpg)
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The number of pilot wounds received is just BS. I fly a P47 which was known to be a tough aircraft that could take a lot of damage. The pilot was well protected (read Robert Johnson's book). But if I get hit (but not killed on the first hit), way over 50% of the time I get a pilot wound. That's just BS. So I guess HTC believes that over 50% of the guys in the 56th fighter group went down because of pilot wounds. Bull. Absolute total Bull.
Of all the times I have been hit, I think I have had one rudder shot away and a couple ailerons shot away. That's all. Lots of oil leaks. But pilot wounds .... 40-50 maybe. Way, way out of proportion. I guess the whole freaking German Luftwaffe fighter force either blew up on first hit or died/ were put out of action because of pilot wounds.
Died twice today from the same bomber pilot from pilot wounds. Couldn't land or even ditch my plane. So I know I have to just bail out if I have a pilot wound if more than about 14k away from base. So I guess in WWII no-one ever got home if they were pilot wounded. What complete BS!
So I believe strongly that a) there are too many pilot wounds proportionately to plane damage; b) pilot wounds result in death way too fast.
I will look up and start adding to this string stories of real pilots that were wounded but made it back to base. I'll start here with mention of a pilot in the Spanish Civil War (before Pearl Harbor) that was wounded in a fighter duel and landed. His name was Derek Dickinson and he defeated Bruno Mussolini in a pre-arranged fighter duel. He had 326 bullet holes in this plane, was shot in his left arm but still landed his plane. Read about it in "The Ragged, Rugged Warriors" by Martin Caidin. (Edit: ok we'll through this story out. I'll add other ones.)
Tex78
:airplane: I too, have way to many pilot wounds in almost anything you want to fly!!! My problem with the Aces High programming is just this: A few little specks of blood on wind shield, 7 blackouts and dead! A medium amount of blood on windshield, 7 blackouts and dead! A lot of blood on windshield, 7 blackouts and dead! Anybody see anything wrong with these 3 examples of pilot wounds?
Of course I have no idea what the parameters are for pilot wounds in this game, but I doubt its anywhere close to real life.
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Couldn't land or even ditch my plane. So I know I have to just bail out if I have a pilot wound if more than about 14k away from base.
I don't believe this is always true. I have landed with pilot wounds many times from this distance or further, especially when bomber hunting at altitude and immediately nosing down to the nearest base. It's not always easy, but it can be done fairly regularly once you figure it out.
...a pilot in the Spanish Civil War (before Pearl Harbor) that was wounded...
This story makes me curious: was it the Nationalists or Republicans who bombed Pearl Harbor? ;)
:salute
Ryno
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The number of pilot wounds received is just BS. I fly a P47 which was known to be a tough aircraft that could take a lot of damage. The pilot was well protected (read Robert Johnson's book). But if I get hit (but not killed on the first hit), way over 50% of the time I get a pilot wound. That's just BS. So I guess HTC believes that over 50% of the guys in the 56th fighter group went down because of pilot wounds. Bull. Absolute total Bull.
Of all the times I have been hit, I think I have had one rudder shot away and a couple ailerons shot away. That's all. Lots of oil leaks. But pilot wounds .... 40-50 maybe. Way, way out of proportion. I guess the whole freaking German Luftwaffe fighter force either blew up on first hit or died/ were put out of action because of pilot wounds.
Died twice today from the same bomber pilot from pilot wounds. Couldn't land or even ditch my plane. So I know I have to just bail out if I have a pilot wound if more than about 14k away from base. So I guess in WWII no-one ever got home if they were pilot wounded. What complete BS!
So I believe strongly that a) there are too many pilot wounds proportionately to plane damage; b) pilot wounds result in death way too fast.
I will look up and start adding to this string stories of real pilots that were wounded but made it back to base. I'll start here with mention of a pilot in the Spanish Civil War (before Pearl Harbor) that was wounded in a fighter duel and landed. His name was Derek Dickinson and he defeated Bruno Mussolini in a pre-arranged fighter duel. He had 326 bullet holes in this plane, was shot in his left arm but still landed his plane. Read about it in "The Ragged, Rugged Warriors" by Martin Caidin. (Edit: ok we'll through this story out. I'll add other ones.)
Tex78
Tex,
The planes are tough...not the pilots. It's a plexiglass bubble protecting you from 23 .50cal Machine guns. Have you ever seen what a .50 cal will do to an engine block or to concrete? Imagine what 1 will do to a plastic bubble. Now imaging what 600 rounds per minute X 23 will do to a plastic bubble and the pilot inside. The "damage model" models the pilot in his cockpit. If the bullet hits you, then you are wounded or killed. It has nothing to do with the toughness of the plane. Just because the wings and tail can absorb a lot of rounds, doesn't mean the pilot can. The buffs aren't shooting through tthe wing to get to the pilot. They are shooting through the canopy. Canopy isn't tougher than other canopies.
Hunt on :salute
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after jaboing CV, Field and Town ack all weekend I received 1 pilot wound. Y'all might want to change your tactics.
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My PW's come in spurts. My success in this game also seems to come in spurts.
I think the game knows when my suck is especially pronounced and goes ahead and puts me out of my misery with a PW. Just as well I suppose.
:salute
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You think that's bad for modelling?
Try flying a 410 and seeing how easily the mechanics for the tail gun are knocked out, at least 60 or 70% of the time you lose both guns simultaneously to a slew of the first incoming shells. It is not fun at all.
To make things worse, the rear guns aren't even aligned vertically for 600 yards, the bullets at no time actually travel above the gunsite or are converged in any way to meet with the intended destination range making it impossible to hit out of first instinct unless you have a custom gunsite (it just reverses the forward gunsite as well for the rear position). By the time you realise you have to adjust for the target, it is usually too late, and the guns are dead.
Bullet drop. Your 'first instinct' should be to aim a tick higher. And overall convergence appears to be set to 500 yds.
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa433/arloguh03/ahss209_zpsff741de5.png)
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:airplane: I too, have way to many pilot wounds in almost anything you want to fly!!! My problem with the Aces High programming is just this: A few little specks of blood on wind shield, 7 blackouts and dead! A medium amount of blood on windshield, 7 blackouts and dead! A lot of blood on windshield, 7 blackouts and dead! Anybody see anything wrong with these 3 examples of pilot wounds?
Of course I have no idea what the parameters are for pilot wounds in this game, but I doubt its anywhere close to real life.
I and other squadies have gone up to 12 (12 being bleed-out and death).
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I agree, it's BS.
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I agree, it's BS.
wait...what? :headscratch:
puhleez say you're not one of those who think pilot wounds should not be possible...
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I fly the D11 quiet a bit for its armored glass in the front it makes for some nice bullet proofing against them nasty jap and German birds with the big cannons :) I have not once been PWed I that D11 or so I think can't remember last time I had PW lol
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I agree, it's BS.
wait...what? :headscratch:
puhleez say you're not one of those who think pilot wounds should not be possible...
Perhaps he means it's Bullet Spall that is wounding pilots. In which case he could be right. :D
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Bullet drop. Your 'first instinct' should be to aim a tick higher. And overall convergence appears to be set to 500 yds.
(http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa433/arloguh03/ahss209_zpsff741de5.png)
This is 500 yards tail gun (*default convergance, * can't change it anyways).
(http://i.imgur.com/EjweQoX.jpg)
This is 500 yards front gun (default convergance).
(http://i.imgur.com/2BRGVD5.jpg)
The only difference between this and the previous tail gun shot is that there is a first set of holes I made with one of the side guns at a lower speed. You notice how it is higher right? Its still *not center* despite being on line when fired at 500 yards.
What is the point of convergance or even a gunsite at all if it is not configured to fire to the center of it?
These are 131s btw, like a .50 cal, but lighter rounds.
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A direct hit from a cannon anywhere on the pilot's body wouldn't result in a
'pilot wound'. It would result in a 'pilot dead'.
Not True! Have you not seen the movie Red Tails....... :devil :bolt:
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A direct hit from a cannon anywhere on the pilot's body wouldn't result in a
'pilot wound'. It would result in a 'pilot dead'.
I thought it was common knowledge already?...I'm talking about hits from cannon rounds *near* the cockpit that sometimes results in a PW. Which does happen in AH.
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I thought it was common knowledge already?...I'm talking about hits from cannon rounds *near* the cockpit that sometimes results in a PW. Which does happen in AH.
Which argues for PWs being more common. Alas, not every inch of even the most armored
aircraft is armored.
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:airplane: I too, have way to many pilot wounds in almost anything you want to fly!!! My problem with the Aces High programming is just this: A few little specks of blood on wind shield, 7 blackouts and dead! A medium amount of blood on windshield, 7 blackouts and dead! A lot of blood on windshield, 7 blackouts and dead! Anybody see anything wrong with these 3 examples of pilot wounds?
Of course I have no idea what the parameters are for pilot wounds in this game, but I doubt its anywhere close to real life.
Blood on the screen is just a graphic. I do NOT believe it has anything to do with the servility of the wound. The black outs and eventual death also have a randomeness to them. Sometime you can fly a sector or two, other time you can't.
after jaboing CV, Field and Town ack all weekend I received 1 pilot wound. Y'all might want to change your tactics.
BINGO!!!! We have a winner!!!
I like to fly the jugs and while I don't spend a ton of time in them I don't see that many pilot wounds. Avoid HOing
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"There is always a small microcosm of people who need to explain away their suckage."
SlapShot
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I seem to get pilot wound when I'm looking over my shoulder checking my six.
ack-ack
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I have to disagree with you Tex. Since the jug damage model was reworked (thank goodness) damage seems a lot more random. The failing of the damage model used to be the main tank which sprung a leak or caught on fire if a round passed within 50 yards of any point on the plane. I suspect your PW issues may be a technique thing. Even in a Jug bombers need to be approached carefully. Once you get it down, it gets hard for buff gunners to do much damage to ya.
This tour I've killed 14 B-17s, 11 Lancs, a B24, and a Betty without a single loss.
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Tex,
The planes are tough...not the pilots. It's a plexiglass bubble protecting you from 23 .50cal Machine guns. Have you ever seen what a .50 cal will do to an engine block or to concrete? Imagine what 1 will do to a plastic bubble. Now imaging what 600 rounds per minute X 23 will do to a plastic bubble and the pilot inside. The "damage model" models the pilot in his cockpit. If the bullet hits you, then you are wounded or killed. It has nothing to do with the toughness of the plane. Just because the wings and tail can absorb a lot of rounds, doesn't mean the pilot can. The buffs aren't shooting through tthe wing to get to the pilot. They are shooting through the canopy. Canopy isn't tougher than other canopies.
Hunt on :salute
This is where it gets wrong. Realistically speaking there should never be a situation where all 23 buff gunners attack a single target with perfect convergence. The buff guns are way too leathal compared to real world where buffs were nothing else but sitting ducks at the hands of attacking fighters.
In real life only a few of the gunners would even see the attacker let alone be able to place any accurate fire on it, the rest would keep scanning their sectors for additional attackers.
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The buff guns are way too leathal compared to real world where buffs were nothing else but sitting ducks at the hands of attacking fighters.
Which is exactly what they are in AH.
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Which is exactly what they are in AH.
Tell that to 99900 and many others. I remember this one high alt buff run where I killed 2x262s, 1x163 and 1xta152 in a single run and I never fly buffs so I wasn't exactly the most experienced gunner in the world.
Buffs are total deathstars even in noob hands let alone people who practice gunning on them. I could get kills with buffs easily even though just a couple of months ago I learned that you need to press N to fire all guns, joystick wasn't enough :D
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Tell that to 99900 and many others.
That's as if you would chose the best fighter pilot of AH to prove how overmnodeled fighters are
Buffs are total deathstars even in noob hands
Nonsense. :)
Noobs just die in droves in bombers. If bombers where that deadly even in the hand of n00bs, why does they A2A k/D doesn't reflect it? I mean, they should at least shoot down as many fighters as they are shot down by them?
Not only the proverbial "noob", but also the average player has difficulties to hit any attacking fighter unless he's strictly coming in from 6 o clock. Which is unfortunately the place to attack from for the vast majority of AH fighter pilots. (But even then most bombers don't survive for long). When you see 3 fighters hunt down the ubiquitous 10k Lancaster, you can almost guarantee that all three will just hover at the Lancs six instead of taking advantage of the weak armament towards all other angles.
Come in from an off angle, and your survival prospects as a fighter rise almost exponentially. Players like Triple Nine who can "reach out and touch" you at any angle are very rare.
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That's as if you would chose the best fighter pilot of AH to prove how overmnodeled fighters are
Nonsense. :)
Noobs just die in droves in bombers. If bombers where that deadly even in the hand of n00bs, why does they A2A k/D doesn't reflect it? I mean, they should at least shoot down as many fighters as they are shot down by them?
Not only the proverbial "noob", but also the average player has difficulties to hit any attacking fighter unless he's strictly coming in from 6 o clock. Which is unfortunately the place to attack from for the vast majority of AH fighter pilots. (But even then most bombers don't survive for long). When you see 3 fighters hunt down the ubiquitous 10k Lancaster, you can almost guarantee that all three will just hover at the Lancs six instead of taking advantage of the weak armament towards all other angles.
Come in from an off angle, and your survival prospects as a fighter rise almost exponentially. Players like Triple Nine who can "reach out and touch" you at any angle are very rare.
Lancs are easy kills for anyone, try the same for B24 or B17 for example. The concentrated fire from all the guns is so insanely effective that it saws off the wing in 1 hit.
I'd take 2 vs 1 in fighters any day instead of attacking a lone fleet of buffs. Unless I'm flying some true cannon monster I'm just going to let the buff pass, no use to end your sortie to a surefire oil / radiator loss or worse.
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Lancs are easy kills for anyone, try the same for B24 or B17 for example.
I did that, a couple of thousand times. Once you are attacking off angle, the probability of being shot down diminishes greatly. It's way much harder for a bomber pilot to hit someone coming down on him from 1 o clock high that for that fighter to hit the bomber. High closure speed, rapidly changing angles and easy to get lost when tracking the fighter.
I'm wasn't an avid buff hunter only during all those years, but flying a lot of bomber sorties myself. I'm certainly an above average buff pilot and gunner myself. I guess that something like 9 out of 10 fighters I shot down were simply creeping up my six o clock. Once I saw a fighter overtaking me and setting up a non-conventional (everything but 6 o clock) attack, I knew I was screwed. I was almost always right.
And going for a non-6 attack has not even much to do with skill. It's simply a descision that mostly being born out of either ignorance or impatience.
And I have to repeat it, even though the majority of AH fighter jocks insists on the 6 o clock attack, the A2A K/D of the bombers are nowhere near anybody would expect from a term like "deathstar, even with noobs flying it". I would expect at least a 1-1 performance.
Of course, the B-29 is the sole exception of that, for obvious reasons.
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Don't put yourself in a position to get wounded. That should fix the problem.
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I did that, a couple of thousand times. Once you are attacking off angle, the probability of being shot down diminishes greatly. It's way much harder for a bomber pilot to hit someone coming down on him from 1 o clock high that for that fighter to hit the bomber. High closure speed, rapidly changing angles and easy to get lost when tracking the fighter.
I'm wasn't an avid buff hunter only during all those years, but flying a lot of bomber sorties myself. I'm certainly an above average buff pilot and gunner myself. I guess that something like 9 out of 10 fighters I shot down were simply creeping up my six o clock. Once I saw a fighter overtaking me and setting up a non-conventional (everything but 6 o clock) attack, I knew I was screwed. I was almost always right.
And going for a non-6 attack has not even much to do with skill. It's simply a descision that mostly being born out of either ignorance or impatience.
And I have to repeat it, even though the majority of AH fighter jocks insists on the 6 o clock attack, the A2A K/D of the bombers are nowhere near anybody would expect from a term like "deathstar, even with noobs flying it". I would expect at least a 1-1 performance.
Of course, the B-29 is the sole exception of that, for obvious reasons.
Kills do not tell the whole story. The majority of times when I've confronted buffs I've had to rtb due to radiator or oil hit 'magic bb'. Since most buff sorties happen on friendly fields its simple to glide to base. That doesn't show as a kill even though the result of an attack might be forced rtb 9 times out of 10.
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My PW's come in spurts. My success in this game also seems to come in spurts.
I think the game knows when my suck is especially pronounced and goes ahead and puts me out of my misery with a PW. Just as well I suppose.
:salute
I know that feeling Triton.. :noid :salute
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It is actually you repeating the same action over and over until you get a different result.
That's why it seems that it comes in spurts. If you don't take enough time to let your brain cool off between sorties, you interrupt the learning process and you repeat the same action again and again.
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It is actually you repeating the same action over and over until you get a different result.
That's why it seems that it comes in spurts. If you don't take enough time to let your brain cool off between sorties, you interrupt the learning process and you repeat the same action again and again.
So, you're saying I've boiled me brains?? :noid
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what I want to know is why can i turn my engine on and off and Fire my guns when I am blacked out?
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what I want to know is why can i turn my engine on and off and Fire my guns when I am blacked out?
Same reason why you used to be able to use controls / set auto trim while blacked out?
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what I want to know is why can i turn my engine on and off and Fire my guns when I am blacked out?
Because its awesome to wake up and see you've killed someone with your eyes closed :old:
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Buffs are total deathstars even in noob hands let alone people who practice gunning on them. I could get kills with buffs easily even though just a couple of months ago I learned that you need to press N to fire all guns, joystick wasn't enough :D
seriously Ripley? if i had a nickel for every time you posted such nonsense i'd be rich...the 3 plane box formations are far from "deathstars". they are only a challenge for people who attack them improperly.
the "N" key does not fire all guns on the bombers...it only fires the guns which correspond to the gun position a person is using at the time.
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Still...I somehow doubt bomber formations in real life had the coordination that our laser gunners do.. There's next to zero dispersion before 500 yards and even if you attack from a high angle, chances are, a half second burst from the stream of 50 cals means you're bound to lose something.
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seriously Ripley? if i had a nickel for every time you posted such nonsense i'd be rich...the 3 plane box formations are far from "deathstars". they are only a challenge for people who attack them improperly.
the "N" key does not fire all guns on the bombers...it only fires the guns which correspond to the gun position a person is using at the time.
They are deathstars compared to what they historically were. If I had a nickel every time you made a personal attack I'd be rich. You have issues, deal with them!
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Still...I somehow doubt bomber formations in real life had the coordination that our laser gunners do.. There's next to zero dispersion before 500 yards and even if you attack from a high angle, chances are, a half second burst from the stream of 50 cals means you're bound to lose something.
I think bombers are balanced about right. If you are in an appropriate buff killing plane with big guns and you make your attacks properly, you have a chance to kill the bomber, the bomber has a chance to kill you. If you make your attack runs poorly/lazily, the buff gunner has more of a chance to get you. If the buff gunner is a top shelf one, he has more of a chance to kill you even if you do it right. If you are lazy with a top shelf buff gunner, you're likely to die. If you make your attacks right against an average/below average buff gunner, you've got a better than average chance of killing the entire formation.
Sounds about right to me.
Wiley.
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Totally true wiley. I can tell if the buffs have a uber gunner on board in the first pass. I take a little more caution after that setting up my next passes. With some of those guys though it doesn't matter what angle you come in from they are pinging the krap out of you at 1.5 out :lol If I live I rarely leave undamaged with those guys.
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Long ago, I was flying a ta-152 on a solo hunt, had no deaths yet maybe 15 kills, so extra careful. I found and then was trying to kill an f4u, I was much higher, he had no E relative to me. I was at about 15k altitude, maybe higher.
He dodged, so I climbed back up twice. I wasn't even doing a full engage. Was more like I found out he wasn't afk.
So maybe the third time, he followed me up. I was looking back, straight down, his range read 1000yrds. He was spraying. I remember feeling safe from his amo and that I was going to break off the attack, it was too risky to continue.
With a single ping from 1k about straight up, with me separating still - he was stalling, just before he fell over, HE PILOT WOUNDED ME with a single ping from 1k.
Superduper F4u amo... can break superweak ta-152 windows, from 1000yards straight up. Sooo years later, I'M CALLING BS. :mad:
I flew towards home, in a shallow dive for speed, I needed about a sector to get to friendly territory, I waited too long to bail, I thought I had more time, the black outs became frequent tho, so I should have bailed, but soon enough... I died. :(
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Long ago, I was flying a ta-152 on a solo hunt, had no deaths yet maybe 15 kills, so extra careful. I found and then was trying to kill an f4u, I was much higher, he had no E relative to me. I was at about 15k altitude, maybe higher.
He dodged, so I climbed back up twice. I wasn't even doing a full engage. Was more like I found out he wasn't afk.
So maybe the third time, he followed me up. I was looking back, straight down, his range read 1000yrds. He was spraying. I remember feeling safe from his amo and that I was going to break off the attack, it was too risky to continue.
With a single ping from 1k about straight up, with me separating still - he was stalling, just before he fell over, HE PILOT WOUNDED ME with a single ping from 1k.
Superduper F4u amo... can break superweak ta-152 windows, from 1000yards straight up. Sooo years later, I'M CALLING BS. :mad:
I flew towards home, in a shallow dive for speed, I needed about a sector to get to friendly territory, I waited too long to bail, I thought I had more time, the black outs became frequent tho, so I should have bailed, but soon enough... I died. :(
so, basically the fact that he could have actually been somewhere between 950 to 1000 yards away you thought then as you do now that .50 caliber bullets should have zero penetration at that range.
maximum effective range of the m2 .50 caliber machine gun is and was approximately 2000 yards...meaning it will still punch through aluminum and cockpit armor at 1000 yards. it can still kill you if you draw the lucky number and get hit by a bullet out to about 6000 yards.
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A cursory inspection of the internet seems to indicate to me that while many aircraft had armored front windscreens, many of the sides and backs particularly in bubble canopies and similar designs weren't of any meaningful armor value. Am I wrong?
I know I wouldn't particularly want to stand behind a piece of plexiglass while someone 1k away took potshots at me.
Sounds about right to me.
Wiley.
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In my exsperiance, hi 3-4 o'clock is your friend. The bomber damage window is a little wider.
Also aim helps alot.
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Lancs are easy kills for anyone, try the same for B24 or B17 for example. The concentrated fire from all the guns is so insanely effective that it saws off the wing in 1 hit.
I'd take 2 vs 1 in fighters any day instead of attacking a lone fleet of buffs. Unless I'm flying some true cannon monster I'm just going to let the buff pass, no use to end your sortie to a surefire oil / radiator loss or worse.
If engaging and shooting down bombers is proving to be difficult for you alone, it is time to revisit your tactics. As Lusche said, bombers have relatively no chance against a fighter using proper tactics
ack-ack
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In my exsperiance, hi 3-4 o'clock is your friend. The bomber damage window is a little wider.
Also aim helps alot.
^
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| What Zach said.....
Sometimes I depart from this guideline and then I usually die in a suitably horrible, virtual fashion. Please note the placement of emphasis within the last statement....it might be enlightening for you....
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Tell that to 99900 and many others. I remember this one high alt buff run where I killed 2x262s, 1x163 and 1xta152 in a single run and I never fly buffs so I wasn't exactly the most experienced gunner in the world.
Buffs are total deathstars even in noob hands let alone people who practice gunning on them. I could get kills with buffs easily even though just a couple of months ago I learned that you need to press N to fire all guns, joystick wasn't enough :D
9 times out of 10 buffs are just free kills for me (and I'm distinctly average)
you must be terrible
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so, basically the fact that he could have actually been somewhere between 950 to 1000 yards away you thought then as you do now that .50 caliber bullets should have zero penetration at that range.
maximum effective range of the m2 .50 caliber machine gun is and was approximately 2000 yards...meaning it will still punch through aluminum and cockpit armor at 1000 yards. it can still kill you if you draw the lucky number and get hit by a bullet out to about 6000 yards.
Maximum effective range against a human or a steel plate of standard thickness?
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so, basically the fact that he could have actually been somewhere between 950 to 1000 yards away you thought then as you do now that .50 caliber bullets should have zero penetration at that range.
maximum effective range of the m2 .50 caliber machine gun is and was approximately 2000 yards...meaning it will still punch through aluminum and cockpit armor at 1000 yards. it can still kill you if you draw the lucky number and get hit by a bullet out to about 6000 yards.
Gyrene,
That might be true IRL but in AH the 50 cals only reach out to about 1200 yds then magically disappear,of course that's because this is a game and not RL. I would also add that the poster you responded to might have "seen" the enemy at D1000 but I bet the enemy "saw" the poster at D800 or even less due to lag,but even at D1000 the 50 cal can kill.
:salute
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(and I'm distinctly average)
I think not, unless your K/D is around 0.6, your k/s at about 0.4 and your k/h about 2.6
Few things in the world are overrated as much as the skill level of the "average AH player" ;)
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I think not, unless your K/D is around 0.6, your k/s at about 0.4 and your k/h about 2.6
Few things in the world are overrated as much as the skill level of the "average AH player" ;)
While I understand what you're trying to say, I take issue with the idea that score is a direct corollary to skill in Aces High (and when I said average I was talking about my skill, which should have been obvious as I was talking about shooting down bombers)
I look at it like this...good players can beat me pretty easily. I can beat bad players pretty easily. Therefore I am pretty much average.
My k/d might make me look better than average, when in fact I am probably worse than average because of several reasons:
1) When I fly it's usually with good wingmen
2) When I fly it's usually in a Spit16 ;)
3) When I don't fly a Spit16, it's usually against the horde in something fast like a F4U-4 or P51
4) When I fly I (mostly) don't do the manly thing of flying into a mass of red icons to die gloriously, but I try to stay alive by using SA, altitude/energy advantages, and wingmen in order to get back to base safely with a few kills
The above points probably give me a k/d or k/s that is out of proportion with my actual skill at the game :]
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Nonsence. I can't kill you :old:
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Morph: I have wondered about that for a long time re: 1200yds...
So that is without doubt, they just disappear/don't exist in AH after any further? Sorry to make you repeat, but I think I've been hit at 1500, now I realize that lag could account for the 300, and he could have been shooting on his end from 1200, correct, or no?
:salute
Rot
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It's not a set distance. It's based on time. Projectiles have a max flight time, the actual max distance will vary according to caliber, speed and altitude. For .50 cals and most other small caliber plane guns, 1200 is a good rule of thumb.
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Maximum effective range against a human or a steel plate of standard thickness?
humans for the most part...i punched through 1/4 inch plate at 1000 yards using ap. vehicles can be chewed to shreds out to 1500 just using standard ball. getting rounds on target that far out is another story. :lol
Gyrene,
That might be true IRL but in AH the 50 cals only reach out to about 1200 yds then magically disappear,of course that's because this is a game and not RL. I would also add that the poster you responded to might have "seen" the enemy at D1000 but I bet the enemy "saw" the poster at D800 or even less due to lag,but even at D1000 the 50 cal can kill.
:salute
that may have been the case Morfiend. i've had many toon planes shot out of the air from 1000 yard shots.
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Quote from: texasfighter on Yesterday at 12:12:00 PM
...a pilot in the Spanish Civil War (before Pearl Harbor) that was wounded...
This story makes me curious: was it the Nationalists or Republicans who bombed Pearl Harbor? Wink
It was the Republican Japanese. Watch out for those Republicans!
:salute
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If engaging and shooting down bombers is proving to be difficult for you alone, it is time to revisit your tactics. As Lusche said, bombers have relatively no chance against a fighter using proper tactics
ack-ack
Last time I played AH I wasted 20 minutes and 3 sectors chasing a lancaster that was porking strats. In that time I could not:
a) Catch him with wepping K4
b) Climb on top of him
Then when I finally got into icon range someone with a 163 came and killed the lone lanc, he was apparently offline. He made a dead six pass btw even in 163...
If I had to use 'proper tactics' and climb 1,6k above him to avoid the lasers, then pass him, make a shooting pass - repeat the process... I most likely would have ran out of fuel and patience before the kill. A single buff or single set of buffs should not pose any sort of a danger to a fighter. When you read accounts of fighter pilots attacking bombers they describe them as slow moving, steady targets which spray scattered fire against you untill a couple of well placed shots silences the gunners. Stark contrast to the deadly 1 hit burst of killer fire of AH and evasive manouvers in high alt that fighters can't even match.
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Morph: I have wondered about that for a long time re: 1200yds...
So that is without doubt, they just disappear/don't exist in AH after any further? Sorry to make you repeat, but I think I've been hit at 1500, now I realize that lag could account for the 300, and he could have been shooting on his end from 1200, correct, or no?
:salute
Rot
Lusche is correct the 1200 was a close aprox. if you want to see for yourself just use the dot target command and move it to the various distances. IIRC the rounds travel slightly further at higher alts as air density is factored in.
This applies to all rounds upto and including the 30mm,once you get to 37mm it's a different story.
:salute
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A direct hit from a cannon anywhere on the pilot's body wouldn't result in a
'pilot wound'. It would result in a 'pilot dead'.
I dont know. I've seen tiger rounds hit M3's in the drivers side door. Or ricochet off the windsheild and not even cause it to slow down. LOL
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A direct hit from a cannon anywhere on the pilot's body wouldn't result in a
'pilot wound'. It would result in a 'pilot dead'.
A pilot is probably not going to get a "direct hit". Remember, in many cases the wound was not caused by the round directly but rather the shrapnel the round caused once it impacted the aircraft. Same goes for FMJ rounds, though to a lesser extent.
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Lusche is correct the 1200 was a close aprox. if you want to see for yourself just use the dot target command and move it to the various distances. IIRC the rounds travel slightly further at higher alts as air density is factored in.
This applies to all rounds upto and including the 30mm,once you get to 37mm it's a different story.
:salute
Ahhh, Ok. Thank you Morf & Lusche. If iirc the instance correctly, it was .50's that killed me at ~1500. Of course it didn't help my cause to have x 6 of them blasting away at me...
:salute
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Wounds:
1. On airplanes, there is not much protecting you. The Engine, a bit of armored glass, a bit of plating behind your head. Think about the fack that the rounds would just about have to come in perpendicular to the armor for it to work. I have seen a guy hit in the butt by a 30mm that did not arm, took his leg right off at the hip. If it had armed, he would have disappeared. So, any pilot wound I survive, I chalk it up to luck. If you were a real person in the airplane, the first pings would probably freak you out enough to quit pressing the attack.
2. THE ONE I DEPLORE: Tanks used to get pilot wounds. Not anymore. I would like the ability to kill or wound a human in the commanders position. I get very annoyed being pilot wounded while in an IL-2 by a pintle gun. Especially when I am raining 37mm onto the turret at the same time. If there were really a "person", the flying fragments would certainly wound them or damage the pintle gun. It would be great if the guy was up in the commander position during a strafing and was "killed" making the gun sight the only available option for tank views, unless of course the guy was smart enough to dive into the hatch.
^^^^^ This and tanks killing airplanes are the two most gamey features, to me.
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2. THE ONE I DEPLORE: Tanks used to get pilot wounds. Not anymore.
When was that? :headscratch: