Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Scherf on November 11, 2013, 06:03:45 PM
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It being 50 years hence, what's your currently-favoured theory?
Have had a couple of good doccos on down here recently, "Mortal Error" has taken the lead for me over "Traficante and his Corsican pals."
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The most recent book points the finger at a Corsican shooter. I haven't read it, just the reviews. One thing I am 100% confident of, the angle from the book depository does not allow for the impact. Wrong angle and direction. That is about the only thing I am confident of.
One note, a Dr Kermit Hall lead a review of the Warren Report. I personally spoke with him about this and the Oliver Stone movie. He chuckled and said both were great fictions. Here is a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kermit_L._Hall
Boo
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unfortunately...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwjHhJdhY0I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwjHhJdhY0I)
there have been many studies conducted...the most convincing was the study of the bullet trajectories including tests of where the bullet casings were found. pretty strong evidence showing the 6th floor location was correct.
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Look into the French Canadian connection!
The ties with certain groups were close.
:noid
Corsican indeed..... :rolleyes:
:salute
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Hey man, Corsica via Marseilles.
Anything is possible in either of those places. Anarchy, anarchy...
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Hey man, Corsica via Marseilles.
Anything is possible in either of those places. Anarchy, anarchy...
:noid :rofl :rofl
:salute
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Heheheh, IIRC the guy who described Corsicans also said they hunkered down in Montreal for a time after the event.
East Montreal, not quite so bad as Corsica.
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I love that show.
Problems with headshot. kennedy was clearly hit from a frontal, quartering shot. Enters his forehead, exists the back of his head. His head is move violently back and to the Left.
Oswald was located to Kennedy's rear, right. A headshot from Oswald would have thrown Kennedy forward and to the left. The kill shot was not from the book repository.
boo
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Heheheh, IIRC the guy who described Corsicans also said they hunkered down in Montreal for a time after the event.
East Montreal, not quite so bad as Corsica.
Now that's something I could beleive! Montreal,Hamilton and the Falls all had close ties with certain groups.
:salute
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I love that show.
Problems with headshot. kennedy was clearly hit from a frontal, quartering shot. Enters his forehead, exists the back of his head. His head is move violently back and to the Left.
Oswald was located to Kennedy's rear, right. A headshot from Oswald would have thrown Kennedy forward and to the left. The kill shot was not from the book repository.
boo
Agreed.
How do his brains end up on the trunk? By someone other than Oswald is how...
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Rot summarizes my post in half an excellent sentence.
Bam!!
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La Cosa Nostra, Castro & maybe even FBI.
Possibly one or more together. (Especially Mob & Castro).
All had more than 1 motive.
I've believed all along that the FBI killed Marilyn Monroe.
(Who was banging JFK, and knew too much. Their adultery brought
shame into the "Royal Family" of the US).
It was well known that J. Edgar Hoover and the Kennedy's hated each other.
I wouldn't be shocked if they were proven to be involved.
Mob wanted JFK and (eventually) RFK taken out (after RFK became Attorney General,
and started going after the mob).
And what was Oswald's motive again?
Ruby was a small time hood, with ties to the mob.
Had access to (in a Police Station) and killed Oswald to shut him up.
Oswald was a sucker. Used; a patsy, a scapegoat, a nobody.
Always intrigued by the many different theories.
Hope someday we'll know what really happened.
:cheers: Oz
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The mob is the only organization with a motive that makes sense that could have conspired to kill Kennedy and succeeded with nobody opening their mouth. It's in their DNA to stfu.
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I love that show.
Problems with headshot. kennedy was clearly hit from a frontal, quartering shot. Enters his forehead, exists the back of his head. His head is move violently back and to the Left.
Oswald was located to Kennedy's rear, right. A headshot from Oswald would have thrown Kennedy forward and to the left. The kill shot was not from the book repository.
boo
Just a stupid question;
But wouldn't the body be sucked around the bullet. In other words if head jerked back wouldnt been because bullet entered from behind.... Seems like I read somewhere when the bullet eneters the body it will sucked into the bullet. All except for some high powered rifles such as the La. 338 mag and .50 BMG Cant remember were I read that...
But I believe that there were more than one shooter... Wasnt the round that were fired never found do to the fact that it was HV round with tons of penetrating power :salute
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Peters, as a rule of thumb no. Physics says there is absolutely no chance of it though strange things happen with objects moving at high speeds.
Having been around a number of kill shots etc etc etc I have never, ever seen a body move the opposite direction of the bullet upon impact. Ever! The simple transference of energy means the energy goes the same direction. I remember watching a documentary on Kennedy and I think it was a young Dan Rather who made the same spurious claim. They had to make this claim in order for Oswald to be even remotely involved.
Simple physics. In order for energy to move 180 degrees it would require a greater amount of energy pushing back. Many long held laws of physics kicks in.
Looking at Kennedy from directly above and his nose was pointing 12 o'clock, he was hit at roughly the 1 O'clock with his head moving violently backwards to a 7 O'clock position. Oswald and the book repository were roughly 5 O'clock. Had Oswald hit him his head would have moved violently to roughly an 11 O'clock position.
Anyone else seen a target moved 180 degrees opposite the direction of the round?
Boo
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What really happened. His wife was chatterboxing a mile a minute over the mundane until finally his head exploded
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Peters, as a rule of thumb no. Physics says there is absolutely no chance of it though strange things happen with objects moving at high speeds.
Having been around a number of kill shots etc etc etc I have never, ever seen a body move the opposite direction of the bullet upon impact. Ever! The simple transference of energy means the energy goes the same direction. I remember watching a documentary on Kennedy and I think it was a young Dan Rather who made the same spurious claim. They had to make this claim in order for Oswald to be even remotely involved.
Simple physics. In order for energy to move 180 degrees it would require a greater amount of energy pushing back. Many long held laws of physics kicks in.
Looking at Kennedy from directly above and his nose was pointing 12 o'clock, he was hit at roughly the 1 O'clock with his head moving violently backwards to a 7 O'clock position. Oswald and the book repository were roughly 5 O'clock. Had Oswald hit him his head would have moved violently to roughly an 11 O'clock position.
Anyone else seen a target moved 180 degrees opposite the direction of the round?
Boo
Just watched the film again. He is lurched forward and his head moves forward on the impact, then his whole body swings back probably by reflex caused by his brain exploding. A bullet wouldn't push his whole upper body straight.
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Lyndon Baines Johnson
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What really happened. His wife was chatterboxing a mile a minute over the mundane until finally his head exploded
:rofl :rofl :rofl I know that feeling,case is solved! :aok
:salute
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSqNx-BXQVs
This is the famous Zapruder film. As Kennedy becomes visible again after passing behind the street sign he can bee seen clutching his throat. His head then clearly takes a hit, throwing it to the rear, left. His body then slumps forward. I'm not sure what you are describing Ripley.
Kill shot is roughly 17 sec mark. His wife briefly climbs onto the trunk of the car to retrieve part of his skull that landed there. He was clearly hit from a frontal, quartering shot.
boo
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If this link comes through...
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/changed.gif&imgrefurl=http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/route.htm&h=366&w=596&sz=8&tbnid=-yuqEbTkT5irRM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=147&zoom=1&usg=__JkkZgqTae4sLwvxW9AsB8r0BEhs=&docid=1Tao3iDFj9HT_M&sa=X&ei=erOCUqv_AumwiQLB0YCYDw&ved=0CDUQ9QEwAw
The path of the car is traveling from the right to the left. Kennedy's car is driving towards the "grassy knoll." Oswald is in the book depository, which is located behind the President's car, and to his right. A direct line to the President's car would clearly be somewhere around the 5pm, not the front shot the Zapruder film shows.
Oswald couldn't have fired the shot that killed Kennedy.
Boo
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If this was a conspiracy, it is the greatest one ever. All this time and NO one can prove it, no one
talked..stretches the bounds of credulity a tad, huh?
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If this was a conspiracy, it is the greatest one ever. All this time and NO one can prove it, no one
talked..stretches the bounds of credulity a tad, huh?
Unless all the conspirators are dead. The only way for three people to keep a secret is if two of them are dead.
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I haven't revisited any info on it in years. Back in high school I was rather interested, but it occurred to me it might be wise to let it go. You know, before wiki anything was ever heard of.
The last thing I saw/heard that gave a good a theory was from the underpass iirc. The trajectory and spatial alignment was plausible, but then of course they came up with a counter theory...
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Lyndon Baines Johnson
If I had to lay money, it would be there.
The last really interesting thing I heard, tangential however it may be, was about the personal physician of JFK. Apparently amphetamine is a great way to combat Chron's disease...? Might be interesting to find the book, this was mentioned on the George Noory show :noid
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Anyone else seen a target moved 180 degrees opposite the direction of the round?
I have, last weekend.
I placed an empty metal cylindrical container (4" diameter x 7" tall or so) on sandy soil, backed off 100 yards, and fired at it. I could only see the top 1/3 of the target, so that's what I aimed at (and hit).
The rifle was a .22-250 with a 55gr HP. The target was at 100 yards, on nearly flat ground, with a 15' berm about 25 yards behind the target.
The bullet entered the container, hit the internal valve, and split in two. There was one entry hole, and two large exit holes.
The container somersaulted back at me! And not just slightly, it tumbled and rolled roughly 20yards closer to me than where it was when I hit it!
Odd, to say the least. And, I had witnesses who also thought it was quite odd.
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Anyone who has seen somebody shot in the head with a rifle caliber bullet will probably agree that the front right quarter of JFK's head bursting is an obvious exit wound. Rifle rounds, unless they are tumbling, create a nice small hole when entering, almost like it was done with a drill. I've seen it many, many times, and the entry is nearly always the same. The exit on the other hand, varies depending on the ammunition used. If, for example, JFK was indeed struck by a negligent discharge from a 5.56 rifle round, as the latest TV show claims, it would indeed look pretty similar to the video.
I'm sure a few of the US Army vets here who were in Afghanistan can comment as well on head shots, and what they look like. I'm fairly certain they'll agree having the same frame of reference.
So, unless the round that hit JFK was tumbling, or an explode on impact type of round - pretty unlikely in the early 1960's, yet possible I suppose, there is little change that he was struck in the front right of the head, and a very good chance that he was struck from ground level, not the elevated position in the book depository, as the exit wound's burst pattern and position also strongly supports this.
You can't shoot a watermelon with your rifle and expect the same results as a human skull - a melon will usually just come apart from a rifle round, but the human head is much different - as I said, small entry hole like a drill in, somewhat unpredictable mess going out.
If in fact a Secret Service agent did have an AD/ND, it would explain a lot about Oswald. His shooting feat isn't nearly as improbably since he only would have got ONE hit, not two in the time frame that's been used throughout history to try and replicate his shooting with that crappy Carcano rifle. In fact, the first round he fired was likely a miss then, and his second struck JFK in the throat/upper chest. Or whoever was shooting from an elevated position at least, Oswald or not. But it does certainly make it more likely he could have possibly been the shooter, and alone, if the head shot on JFK was an accident from an agent who made the mistake of finger on the trigger, and was startled by shot number 2 and squeezed.
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Here's an interview with the ballistics gent whose research forms the basis of "Mortal Error."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZ_MmJ6KfpE
I believe the argument hinges at least in part on the location of the wound on the back of the skull having been incorrectly reported in the Warren Report.
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Gman, good point.
What appears to be an exit round is likely associated with the limited photography of the time. Some blood spray makes it appear a larger debris field. The link below shows a diagram of Kennedy's head with three clear wounds. The biggest of which is located on the rear of his head. A front shot would also be consistent with Mrs Kennedy picking up part of his skull on the rear of the car.
https://www.google.com/search?q=kennedy+head+shots+drawing&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=QA2DUrqMEOHhyQHDkYGADw&ved=0CDUQsAQ&biw=1518&bih=748#facrc=_&imgdii=0xU30lyWvcsEmM%3A%3BwVWi7cVjLaaKfM%3B0xU30lyWvcsEmM%3A&imgrc=0xU30lyWvcsEmM%3A%3Beni_5YJhNpBwbM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fupload.wikimedia.org%252Fwikipedia%252Fcommons%252Fthumb%252F4%252F43%252FJfkautopsy.jpg%252F400px-Jfkautopsy.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fen.wikipedia.org%252Fwiki%252FJohn_F._Kennedy_autopsy%3B400%3B315
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSqNx-BXQVs
This is the famous Zapruder film. As Kennedy becomes visible again after passing behind the street sign he can bee seen clutching his throat. His head then clearly takes a hit, throwing it to the rear, left. His body then slumps forward. I'm not sure what you are describing Ripley.
Kill shot is roughly 17 sec mark. His wife briefly climbs onto the trunk of the car to retrieve part of his skull that landed there. He was clearly hit from a frontal, quartering shot.
boo
If you watch the digitally enhanced version which is slow motion and enlarged you'll see that the actual bullet impact jolts the head forward, then his whole body twitches backwards. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q91RZko5Gw 4:34 mark.
A high velocity bullet to the head does not have enough kinetic force to push the whole body around unlike what's seen in movies.
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If this was a conspiracy, it is the greatest one ever. All this time and NO one can prove it, no one
talked..stretches the bounds of credulity a tad, huh?
It does in the reality of 2013 but not so much that of 1963. People were far more trusting of the authorities and Govt. at the time and the only social media was yelling out the window at your neighbor. You only learned about stuff by reading a paper of watching Cronkite. Plus I believe nobody wanted to believe a US President could get whacked out by a conspiracy in broad daylight in the middle of Dallas TX.
LBJs crew wanted the entire thing squashed and made yesterdays news as quickly as possible. The early '60s were a far different time.
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If you watch the digitally enhanced version which is slow motion and enlarged you'll see that the actual bullet impact jolts the head forward, then his whole body twitches backwards. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q91RZko5Gw 4:34 mark.
A high velocity bullet to the head does not have enough kinetic force to push the whole body around unlike what's seen in movies.
I tend to agree with this.
As for the direction of the twitching after to impact? Bodies have a tendency to do strange things when a foreign object enters the brain pan and randomly strike different nerves that control motor functions. Anyone that has used a needle to pith a frog for live dissection has seen this. When you scramble something's brain, strange and random motor functions are observed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d92x1-d-1e0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d92x1-d-1e0)
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How easy is it for a FMJ to disentegrate? If the headshot was from a frangible bullet, it tells all I need to know.
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How easy is it for a FMJ to disentegrate? If the headshot was from a frangible bullet, it tells all I need to know.
6.5mm carcano...fmj will disintegrate when it hits skull. there is a lot of if this and if that to it though...just watched a 1 hour forensic study on pbs that showed plausibility based on testing, video and autopsy information.
the grassy knoll was ruled out...
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Santa Claus was your parents
Roswell was a balloon
Islamic Terrorist are responsible for 911
Oswald killed Kennedy
The truth is rarely as interesting as fantasy and conspiracy.
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Santa Claus was your parents
Roswell was a balloon
Islamic Terrorist are responsible for 911
Oswald killed Kennedy
The truth is rarely as interesting as fantasy and conspiracy.
LOL +1
Although, I do wonder about the Roswell thing
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Santa Claus was your parents
Roswell was a balloon
Islamic Terrorist are responsible for 911
Oswald killed Kennedy
The truth is rarely as interesting as fantasy and conspiracy.
Santa is a conspiracy? I suppose to those younger than 2nd grade when they find out.
With you up until Oswald. On that note, you missed one; Surfinn's long lost uncle is Sasquatch.
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6.5mm carcano...fmj will disintegrate when it hits skull. there is a lot of if this and if that to it though...just watched a 1 hour forensic study on pbs that showed plausibility based on testing, video and autopsy information.
the grassy knoll was ruled out...
I watched it also but I was confused at the end where it was concluded there was only one shooter. Yet at the beginning the gun experts said it was impossible to get the number of shots off in the time frame of the shooting.
The head snapping back was explained by the brain contracting the stronger back muscles.
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I watched it also but I was confused at the end where it was concluded there was only one shooter. Yet at the beginning the gun experts said it was impossible to get the number of shots off in the time frame of the shooting.
The head snapping back was explained by the brain contracting the stronger back muscles.
And brain matter and skull fragment on the trunk? How did they explain that?
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And brain matter and skull fragment on the trunk? How did they explain that?
The car is moving forward. The vehicle will continue to move forward no matter what happens to the human target. Fragments that fly up into the air or slipstream after impact of the bullet are going to be affected by wind blast and vehicle movement and land back in and on the vehicle. Which way does your hair blow when you're riding in a convertable? Also Governor and Mrs Connolly were both covered in tissue from the presidents fatal shot as well and they were sitting in front of him out of the slipstream effect. This would point to the bullet impacting from behind the president. Also people that say in 1963 and a conspiracy would have been easier to hide than today should remember that in 1865 all of the Lincoln conspirators were found and punished.. Like I said the truth is boring.
I'm not an expert on ballistics or the investigation of the Kennedy assasination by any means. This is just my opinion looking at the available information.
Santa is fantasy not conspiracy. ;)
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Like i said, murder investigations, successful ones, tend not to have a whole lot of loose ends.
Whether or not those shots were fired by a gun man on that floor of that building is one thing. But are we truly to believe it just happens that a guy working as a radar technician on the U2 spy plane project - the most secret thing on the planet in the late 50s - was studying Russian and Marxism whilst he was in the Marine Corps? He then gives up on the American way and heads off to Moscow via London and Helsinki. He spends time in a Soviet mental institution, gets job in a sheet metal factory in Minsk and marries a KGB colonel’s daughter and is given a Soviet hunting license. He then becomes disenchanted with Marxist Leninist life, packs his bags and returns to Texas. Three weeks before the assassination he goes to Mexico City visits Russian and Cuban legations and shortly after gets the job in the Texas Book Depository, goes out ON HIS OWN and kills the most powerful guy in the world?
And then frame 313, pretty graphic, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iU83R7rpXQY . The Carcano round with a RNFMJ bullet really doesnt produce such injuries. Thats a 162 grn RNFMJ at about 2200 fps. And boy it sure looks like an extremely high vel rifle made that shot, and with a rapidly expanding bullet coming out of it.
One or two loose corners is one thing. "Dozens" are another. Most of all in a high profile incident done out in the open.
And then we had a Warren Commission all to willing to put this incident to bed ASAP.
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10.5 g (162 gr) RN 700 m/s (2,300 ft/s) 2,572 J (1,897 ft·lbf)
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There seems to be two compelling bits of visual information.
The first is the nature of head movement on impact, with several explanations as to why his head jerked to the rear and left. The second is the head would itself.
The head wound is over the right side, from his right ear backwards, with a smaller head would over the right forehead area. Would that mean a glancing shot that entered the front and exploded out the same side on the rear?
Over the weekend I will find a couple diagrams that show the most simple of trajectories from the book depository that make that a very unlikely location for any of the shots.
boo
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I love that show.
Problems with headshot. kennedy was clearly hit from a frontal, quartering shot. Enters his forehead, exists the back of his head. His head is move violently back and to the Left.
Where do you get this? Look at a still frame of Kennedy at the moment of impact. Then say it exits the back of his head.
Google Zapruder frame 313 and 314. Also take a look at 335 which vividly shows the trauma to President Kennedy's head.
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The Carcano round with a RNFMJ bullet really doesnt produce such injuries. Thats a 162 grn RNFMJ at about 2200 fps. And boy it sure looks like an extremely high vel rifle made that shot, and with a rapidly expanding bullet coming out of it.
you're mistaken.
The head wound is over the right side, from his right ear backwards, with a smaller head would over the right forehead area. Would that mean a glancing shot that entered the front and exploded out the same side on the rear?
the bullet clearly entered the back of the skull and exited the front. even the examination of the brain showed that...
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xxx
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Bullets also do odd things when they hit bone. I'd imagine a bullet hitting the skull (bone close to the surface) would cause an almost explosive reaction, especially large calibre at lower velocity.
Don't they show lots of fragmentation in the brain from the bullet?
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Bullets also do odd things when they hit bone. I'd imagine a bullet hitting the skull (bone close to the surface) would cause an almost explosive reaction, especially large calibre at lower velocity.
You're correct in saying that bullets behave in an unpredictable manner, especially once they pass through soft tissue and liquid, and then strike harder objects like bone, however the head is a different media than the rest of the human body, as the skull is right under a tight thin layer of skin. Ask any mortician, pathologist, or even soldier/cop/contractor/etc who has seen a lot of head shots, and invariably they will say the same thing: Nearly all entry wounds are small, almost as though they were done with a drill, while the entry wounds, if they exist, which is typical, are somewhat unpredictable depending on the ammunition type and velocity. The JFK Zapruder film is very, very typical of a small to medium size rifle bullet entry and exit wound, at least one that isn't a contact wound, but one from medium range.
I still think the best evidence I've seen is the recent work done regarding the Secret Service agent having an AD/ND and striking JFK in the head from about 9 or 10 yards away with an M16. Many people saw the M16, and it is in several photographs as well. Also, many people at ground level in the following cars smelled gunpowder strongly, something that wouldn't be possible with the winds that day from the book depository, or the fenceline by the grassy knoll. It also explains the time factor, as it is extremely unlikely Oswald could have fired 3 shots in such a short time for 2 hits, yet 2 shots for 1 hit anyone with some rifle skill can do. I'm not saying there wasn't a conspiracy of some kind, just that the shots could have come from the depository, as well as ground level from close behind the President as well.
I've seen guys who are better trained and have far, far more experience with small arms then the Secret Service make mistakes, especially under fire, stress, and when lacking sleep/rest. I also believe that the area, position, and trajectory of the 2nd shot to the head is a hard sell from an elevated position, where as it's an easy sell from ground level. This being the case, where could this other shooter have been, and not been easily seen after firing? The investigators recently tried to find a spot where this could have come from, and the only reasonable place is the following car.
I can see why they would cover this up at the time - It's a pretty horrible thing to admit that the best guards in the world failed, and not only failed, but also greatly contributed to their protectee's demise. Just think how horrible it would have been if that's what happened. Some dork gets a hit on the President, and then the SS plants an accidental round in his head. Think of how the rest of the world, particularly the Soviet Union would have viewed this. The USA would have seemed very weak to them, although this wouldn't have been the case IMO. That fact could have had all kinds of negative repercussions.
Anyhow, watch the recent special regarding the Secret Service AD/ND theory, it did more to convince me then anything else so far, even though I've always strongly believed shot 2 was an exit wound through the front of the head, not an entry. Like I said, having seen a few head shots with rifle and the odd pistol round, the entry wounds have never, not once, made several square inches of head explode on the entry side by my observation.
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Gman, can you post a link or give the proper name of the program? I've never heard of this.
I have heard and seen the enhanced video of which the driver half turns around and shoots Kennedy with a pistol. I think the final answer by most is that Oswald wasn't it, at least wasn't the only one. I remain convinced Oswald was nothing but a patsy and had nothing to do with it. Many patsies throughout history.
This is something that fascinates me. There were many very powerful interests that benefited from Kennedy being killed. In politics almost nothing happens by chance. Frequently not as designed but rarely by complete random chance.
Boo
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The TV program is called "The Smoking Gun." Don't know if it will be on YouTube or LiveLeak or whatever since it's relatively new, copyright owners might still actually be interested in protecting their ownership.
The book it's based on is "Mortal Error."
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Check out PBS' website. Just viewed the video on Cronkite. It is estimable. Starting the 2nd about Cold Case Files, but I fear it will be sensational and full of blather. Hope PBS proves me wrong.
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I have heard and seen the enhanced video of which the driver half turns around and shoots Kennedy with a pistol.
So if you have seen this video do you think the driver shot him?
Below is a photo of the secret service agent in question that supposedly shot the president by accident in yet another conspiracy theory.
(http://media.philly.com/images/jfk-hickey-with-rifle.jpg)
Do you really think if the man just accidentally discharged his rifle none of the other agents would be reacting to it or relieving him of it?
If you accidentally discharged a weapon in close quarters while part of any law enforcement or military detail you would be the center of
attention and more than likely getting your donut kicked.
There is an interesting documentary called The Kennedy Detail on Discovery this month. It has interviews of the men in the detail as they tell their stories.
A few of these guys were in the very car in the photo above. Mthrockmor I'm not responding to you to poke fun at you or imply anything negative. There
was a time I held some of your beliefs. However the more I read and the more conspiracy theories that float out the more it becomes apparent at least
to me that Oswald acted alone. It is human nature to believe that a great man like John F Kennedy could not be snuffed out of existence by a loser like
Oswald. Unfortunately that is just not true. Never underestimate the damage a frustrated under achiever can inflict on society when he decides to extract his revenge.
I do find this thread interesting though and hope you continue to give your points of view. I may or may not agree with them but I do find the subject interesting. :salute
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Shifty, I have seen dozens of videos of LE having ND's, there is a video on utube of them I'm trying to find right now, and none of the officers in any of them disarmed the person responsible, not once. Usually they just reholstered and stood there looking sheepish. We can't know how the SS at the time reacted, as there isn't video of this, and the whole point is they covered it up if in fact it DID happen that way, so who knows what they really did if that agent in fact had an AD/ND and hit JFK in the noodle.
If you read the book or watch the program mentioned a couple posts above, it deals with all your points. Ballistics show that the 2nd shot came from a shot from ground level, and again, the evidence in the recent investigation regarding this is very compelling to anyone with any knowledge about ballistics and shooting. I agree with you regarding Oswald, especially if you consider that the 2nd fatal shot wasn't fired by him at all, but was the result of an accident. As strongly as you feel that a regular guy like Oswald is capable of doing this, it's just as strong a fact that even the best trained people have accidents with firearms, especially under stress. As I've said twice now, Oswald's feet becomes far less difficult if you look at the evidence regarding the 2nd shot, and that it could have come from the following vehicle, in fact, almost had to have, considering the evidence that the shot came from an almost level trajectory. Firing 2 shots and getting one hit from that range in that time frame, any decent rifleman could accomplish, even with that crappy Carcano. There is also interviews and info about the SS agent with the M16 that you would find pretty interesting I think, if you either read the book, or watch the program, or both.
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I'll look for this video. As for the picture with the M-16, I've never even seen it. With the theory of the driver reaching over his shoulder to shot the President, I don't believe it. I've just heard it and seen the enhanced Zapruder film. It does not make it clear and very likely the driver is looking over his shoulder in response to the first bullet.
Always happy to learn more and get better information.
Boo
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There is an interesting documentary called The Kennedy Detail on Discovery this month. It has interviews of the men in the detail as they tell their stories.
A few of these guys were in the very car in the photo above. Mthrockmor I'm not responding to you to poke fun at you or imply anything negative. There
was a time I held some of your beliefs. However the more I read and the more conspiracy theories that float out the more it becomes apparent at least
to me that Oswald acted alone. It is human nature to believe that a great man like John F Kennedy could not be snuffed out of existence by a loser like
Oswald. Unfortunately that is just not true. Never underestimate the damage a frustrated under achiever can inflict on society when he decides to extract his revenge.
I do find this thread interesting though and hope you continue to give your points of view. I may or may not agree with them but I do find the subject interesting. :salute
A lot of your logic has been that conspiracy is more fun than the truth therefore, it is not a conspiracy. Taking into account all of the other suspicious deaths and assassinations of the time period, it would be rather strange if a lot of conspiracies did not arise. However, I find what is a wild idea is the lone gunman theory. A single destitute man lacking motive is responsible for the most notorious crime in history, that is considerably harder to believe than any conspiracy and much more fanciful.
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So if you have seen this video do you think the driver shot him?
Below is a photo of the secret service agent in question that supposedly shot the president by accident in yet another conspiracy theory.
(http://media.philly.com/images/jfk-hickey-with-rifle.jpg)
Do you really think if the man just accidentally discharged his rifle none of the other agents would be reacting to it or relieving him of it?
If you accidentally discharged a weapon in close quarters while part of any law enforcement or military detail you would be the center of
attention and more than likely getting your donut kicked.
There is an interesting documentary called The Kennedy Detail on Discovery this month. It has interviews of the men in the detail as they tell their stories.
A few of these guys were in the very car in the photo above. Mthrockmor I'm not responding to you to poke fun at you or imply anything negative. There
was a time I held some of your beliefs. However the more I read and the more conspiracy theories that float out the more it becomes apparent at least
to me that Oswald acted alone. It is human nature to believe that a great man like John F Kennedy could not be snuffed out of existence by a loser like
Oswald. Unfortunately that is just not true. Never underestimate the damage a frustrated under achiever can inflict on society when he decides to extract his revenge.
I do find this thread interesting though and hope you continue to give your points of view. I may or may not agree with them but I do find the subject interesting. :salute
If the guy with the M16 really accidentally shot the president, imagine what must be going on in his head in the picture :D
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A lot of your logic has been that conspiracy is more fun than the truth therefore, it is not a conspiracy. Taking into account all of the other suspicious deaths and assassinations of the time period, it would be rather strange if a lot of conspiracies did not arise. However, I find what is a wild idea is the lone gunman theory. A single destitute man lacking motive is responsible for the most notorious crime in history, that is considerably harder to believe than any conspiracy and much more fanciful.
How do you figure he was lacking motive? He was not destitute, he worked in the building he commit ed the crime from. He owned both the weapon that killed the president and the weapon that killed officer Tibet's. His prints were on both. I find it a wild idea that some of you can accept one conspiracy theory and when it was proved wrong or at least very unlikely you can quickly jump to another. At one point mthrockmor says... "the bullet clearly entered the back of the skull and exited the front. even the examination of the brain showed that..." Followed by his immediate interest in the accidental discharge of a secret service agents AR-15 behind the president. If you're so convinced the man was shot from the front how can you embrace so quickly he was shot from behind? The only answer I have for this kind of thinking is.. You desperately want it to be a conspiracy. Idiots with axes to grind were all over the place in the 60s. Neither Kennedy should have died the way they did, nor should have Martin Luther King. All three were gunned down by goofballs, as was Wallace and later John Lennon and Ronald Reagen. Just saying :)
Shifty, I have seen dozens of videos of LE having ND's, there is a video on utube of them I'm trying to find right now, and none of the officers in any of them disarmed the person responsible, not once. Usually they just reholstered and stood there looking sheepish. We can't know how the SS at the time reacted, as there isn't video of this, and the whole point is they covered it up if in fact it DID happen that way, so who knows what they really did if that agent in fact had an AD/ND and hit JFK in the noodle.
If you read the book or watch the program mentioned a couple posts above, it deals with all your points. Ballistics show that the 2nd shot came from a shot from ground level, and again, the evidence in the recent investigation regarding this is very compelling to anyone with any knowledge about ballistics and shooting. I agree with you regarding Oswald, especially if you consider that the 2nd fatal shot wasn't fired by him at all, but was the result of an accident. As strongly as you feel that a regular guy like Oswald is capable of doing this, it's just as strong a fact that even the best trained people have accidents with firearms, especially under stress. As I've said twice now, Oswald's feet becomes far less difficult if you look at the evidence regarding the 2nd shot, and that it could have come from the following vehicle, in fact, almost had to have, considering the evidence that the shot came from an almost level trajectory. Firing 2 shots and getting one hit from that range in that time frame, any decent rifleman could accomplish, even with that crappy Carcano. There is also interviews and info about the SS agent with the M16 that you would find pretty interesting I think, if you either read the book, or watch the program, or both.
Gman I started watching the show about Cronkite would have liked to finish it. Until George Clooney and Harry Reasoner accused Dallas of being the most racist place in America in the 1960s. The tone and agenda was set at that point as far as I was concerned and it wasn't worth my time to watch it. Dallas was never Alabama or Mississippi and I wont waste my time watching Hollywood Hacks paint a whole city to fit their own personal ignorance bias or conspiracy. :salute
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10.5 g (162 gr) RN 700 m/s (2,300 ft/s) 2,572 J (1,897 ft·lbf)
Cite your link. From memory the ammo used was Norma/Western commercial loads and commercial loaders usually under load WW2 milsurp rifle ammo out of fear the weapon may be unsound. Perhaps the actual military round used by the Italians pushed the bullet that fast but the ammo used by, supposedly, Oswalds short barreled Carcano did not. The way you pasted that leads me to believe you got that from wikipedia or the like. Please dont waste our time with such links. I could easily go into it and make it go 4,000 fps.
the bullet clearly entered the back of the skull and exited the front. even the examination of the brain showed that...
I never said it didnt.
This is something that fascinates me. There were many very powerful interests that benefited from Kennedy being killed. In politics almost nothing happens by chance. Frequently not as designed but rarely by complete random chance.
Oh you mean the head of the CIA who was fired by JFK and ends up being put ON the commission investigating his murder? Or the young congressman from MI. nobody had ever heard of who later became President?
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Cite your link. From memory the ammo used was Norma/Western commercial loads and commercial loaders usually under load WW2 milsurp rifle ammo out of fear the weapon may be unsound. Perhaps the actual military round used by the Italians pushed the bullet that fast but the ammo used by, supposedly, Oswalds short barreled Carcano did not. The way you pasted that leads me to believe you got that from wikipedia or the like. Please dont waste our time with such links. I could easily go into it and make it go 4,000 fps.
a lot of interesting information on the 6.5x52mm mannlicher-carcano rifle and ammunition readily available...
http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Misc/6.5x52%20Mannlicher-Carcano/6.5mm%20Carcano.htm (http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Misc/6.5x52%20Mannlicher-Carcano/6.5mm%20Carcano.htm)
http://www.chuckhawks.com/6-5x52_M-C.htm (http://www.chuckhawks.com/6-5x52_M-C.htm)
http://books.google.com/books?id=0pSA2xVGZVYC&pg=PA82&lpg=PA82&dq=6.5x52mm+ballistics&source=bl&ots=iRbd9rH1gv&sig=9KP9znbKC3l4o42hOf9acWHAeVI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7jmGUuiOG-fLsAS15YL4AQ&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBjgK#v=onepage&q=6.5x52mm%20ballistics&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=0pSA2xVGZVYC&pg=PA82&lpg=PA82&dq=6.5x52mm+ballistics&source=bl&ots=iRbd9rH1gv&sig=9KP9znbKC3l4o42hOf9acWHAeVI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7jmGUuiOG-fLsAS15YL4AQ&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBjgK#v=onepage&q=6.5x52mm%20ballistics&f=false)
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Regardless of what happened, I think it really sucked for the USA. Kennedy might not be from my current "preferred" party, but at the time it was far different. Kennedy loved guns, thought everyone should have them, including minorities who at the time had a lot of roadblocks in that department. We have the AR15 today do in some part to his patronage of the early Stoner and other rifles, the first M16's being Kennedy's favorite, which he used to shoot floating crates form his favorite yacht. He certainly wasn't without faults, but by today's standards, a good American IMO.
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Regardless of what happened, I think it really sucked for the USA. Kennedy might not be from my current "preferred" party, but at the time it was far different. Kennedy loved guns, thought everyone should have them, including minorities who at the time had a lot of roadblocks in that department. We have the AR15 today do in some part to his patronage of the early Stoner and other rifles, the first M16's being Kennedy's favorite, which he used to shoot floating crates form his favorite yacht. He certainly wasn't without faults, but by today's standards, a good American IMO.
Couldn't agree more. It leaves a huge what might have been. I always wonder how history would have played out had he lived.
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Regardless of what happened, I think it really sucked for the USA. Kennedy might not be from my current "preferred" party, but at the time it was far different. Kennedy loved guns, thought everyone should have them, including minorities who at the time had a lot of roadblocks in that department. We have the AR15 today do in some part to his patronage of the early Stoner and other rifles, the first M16's being Kennedy's favorite, which he used to shoot floating crates form his favorite yacht. He certainly wasn't without faults, but by today's standards, a good American IMO.
What road blocks? They could order them from magazines like anyone else.
And yeah, other then the fact he was probably the biggest doper we ever had in office, as well as the biggest wife cheating womanizer, and whose family had ties to organized crime, he was a "Great American".
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What road blocks? They could order them from magazines like anyone else.
something smells clueless...
And yeah, other then the fact he was probably the biggest doper we ever had in office, as well as the biggest wife cheating womanizer, and whose family had ties to organized crime, he was a "Great American".
yep, definitely clueless...
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Regardless of what happened, I think it really sucked for the USA. Kennedy might not be from my current "preferred" party, but at the time it was far different. Kennedy loved guns, thought everyone should have them, including minorities who at the time had a lot of roadblocks in that department. We have the AR15 today do in some part to his patronage of the early Stoner and other rifles, the first M16's being Kennedy's favorite, which he used to shoot floating crates form his favorite yacht. He certainly wasn't without faults, but by today's standards, a good American IMO.
:aok
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Gman I started watching the show about Cronkite would have liked to finish it. Until George Clooney and Harry Reasoner accused Dallas of being the most racist place in America in the 1960s. The tone and agenda was set at that point as far as I was concerned and it wasn't worth my time to watch it. Dallas was never Alabama or Mississippi and I wont waste my time watching Hollywood Hacks paint a whole city to fit their own personal ignorance bias or conspiracy.
Shifty, I watched the show and think it quite good. I've heard/read that Dallas was no place for the President back then while not knowing if the assertions be true or false. I missed Clooney and Reasoner's claim. Not a big deal to me. So much about the show was excellent. I agree with you comparing the Cotton South to Texas would make Texas look good.
Check this out. It would appear some big money in Dallas had an axe to grind: http://seattletimes.com/html/books/2022252621_dallas1963minutaglioxml.html
Wish the essay to be a bit more in depth however.
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something smells clueless...
yep, definitely clueless...
By all means dont say "how" I sound clueless because to do so would mean you yourself have a "clue". Which you dont.
If your going to say something dumb, which is pretty much all the time, at least own up to it.
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George Clooney, Seattle newspaper (corp) roflmfao. Or anything in Seattle other than Medved. Really, really?
Some of you are really listening to a single word that pos has to say? Clooney has agenda folks. FYI he's a fundraiser...
A man that coined the phrase and truly was an ask not but what YOU CAN DO person, and believed we the people can solve our nation's problems better than any government. Correct me if you think I'm wrong, but JFK would not be attending the ball, "dinner" at Sarah Jessica Parker's house with Anna Wintour hosting for the... Clooney, Pitt, and all the other do as we say-or we'll throw you out of Hollywood jerks who had $40,000 a plate, yes they were there; 50 of them that were told by the guest "You're the tie-breaker."
Free from fault nope, perfect nope, but as far as the skull and bones club goes, not too bad either.
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One note, a Dr Kermit Hall lead a review of the Warren Report. I personally spoke with him about this and the Oliver Stone movie. He chuckled and said both were great fictions. Here is a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kermit_L._Hall
Boo
Let me restate this. Without divulging personal information Kermit Hall was the President of Utah State University while I worked in a capacity that put me on a committee with him. I got to know him a bit. We didn't go to the movies or anything but would frequently have many detailed conversations that were not elevator pitches. When the man who worked on the Kennedy review committee calls both Oliver Stone's movie JFK and the Warren Commission Report, both works of fiction...it puts me in a mindset that it was not Oswald.
Sadly, I didn't press him for details. We were going into a meeting. He did send me a copy of the report and candidly I neve read it. This was about a decade ago and I don't know where the report is.
That drives my bias against Oswald and the Warren Commission.
Boo
PS Several big names sprung to the forefront of American politics via the Warren Commission to include Dan Rather and Gerald Ford.
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I don't own a television. I view shows online instead. Today is the anniversary of Kennedy's assassination. I hope upon my arrival home after work, I can get online and watch some of the various specials.
If you know of one or two that show promise of being excellent, please tell me which, and I shall try to watch them. Or if you have already watched any that you find superior, please let me know and I shall try to watch them as well.
Thanks,
hap
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the bullet clearly entered the back of the skull and exited the front. even the examination of the brain showed that...
So you found his brain? Where was it all these years?
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I don't buy the conspiracy theory or at least the multiple shooter theory. What convinced me was a documentary, a British one of all things, filmed probably at the last anniversary. What they did was place a former Marine, not an ex Marine as there is no such thing. He was an elderly man and they gave him the same rifle and they placed him in the book depository with a car driving down the same road. He easily got off three aimed shots in the time allowed.
Oswald was a Marine, a traitor yet a Marine. He was a young man. It was an easy shot. No one was shooting back. We can argue about who put him up to it. But he did it. He killed the President. It's really not that complicated. Frankly I would bet on myself to carry it off because I was trained on bolt action rifle when I joined the military. It really is no big deal to get off three aimed shots in quick succession.
Lots of you guy out there are shooters and ex military. Seriously don't you think Kennedy was an easy hit?
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Both Robert McNeil and Jim Lehrer were there: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/nation/july-dec13/jfk_11-21.html
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Lots of you guy out there are shooters and ex military. Seriously don't you think Kennedy was an easy hit?
Yes, the shot was a gimmee. The question is who took the shot and who was behind the entire thing. Also its not entirely clear exactly where the killing shot came from. But 3 shots from that distance? The rifle and scope, most of all the scope, was a semi-POS, but still the shot was a gimmee. An 88 yard shot with a scoped rifle, even on a slowly moving target, is not difficult.
Ive seen a lot of head shots, its a favorite for gangs dealing with rats, but never one with a rifle/caliber/bullet of that type except when hunting animals. I still think the exploding skull/brain was excessive for a supposed RNFMJ at that velocity. And the single bullet theory smells too.
The thing is there is a way to make things fit no matter which side you take. What is suspicious is the amount of things you have to "make" fit. Like i said Homicide investigations , successful ones, just dont have that many loose ends that allow so many book sales for both sides of the argument.
Oswald was not an overly skilled marksman. Yeah he qualified "sharpshooter" in the USMC but that was only a middle grade. There were three classifications, lowest to highest, rifleman, sharpshooter, and marksman. The real good shots were marksman and even this was after a basic course with an M1 Garand. Oswald later slipped to "rifleman" in later qualifications and there was never ANY evidence found he had any exposure to firearms either before or after his USMC service.
I think Oswald was one of these fools that saw to many James Bond movies and wanted to play super spy which is why he exposed himself to both the CIA and the KGB. The guy was a whack job ; A perfect patsy.