Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Kazaa on May 02, 2014, 10:09:57 AM
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War Thunder has reached 4 million registered accounts and is growing in popularity like wild fire.
I thought combat flight simulators were a dying niche in the gaming market?
/discuss
(http://www.sharonshares.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/herewego.jpg)
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I bet the vast majority of those users are only there for the arcade action. :)
From what I hear, even with 4 million users it still takes 10-30 minutes to get into a Simulator battle.
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War Thunder has reached 4 million registered accounts and is growing in popularity like wild fire.
I thought flight simulations were a dying niche in the gaming market?
/discuss
Free arcade mode. It's just that simple.
McDonalds has served billions. Doesn't mean I want to eat there.
Wiley.
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I'm glad there are a lot of people in it.
If even in the smallest of ways, that game works like a bunny slope for Aces High, it's good for us.
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I'm glad there are a lot of people in it.
If even in the smallest of ways, that game works like a bunny slope for Aces High, it's good for us.
Exactly. Once they get a taste of sirloin they will want filet mignon
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Exactly. Once they get a taste of sirloin they will want filet mignon
I don't think that necessarily follows in the vast majority of cases. They've got quick, easy arcade action there for free. Why would they suddenly want a game you have to learn and pay a sub for?
Wiley.
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I gave it a try 2, 3 times. Nice graphics...the rest of it stinks with the exception of the tutorials.
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I don't think that necessarily follows in the vast majority of cases. They've got quick, easy arcade action there for free. Why would they suddenly want a game you have to learn and pay a sub for?
Wiley.
For most it won't. But if even 0.1% look for something better, it would be useful.
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If AH could draw just .01% of the Call of Duty fanatics..
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The new graphics may well cause interest in a 2 week peek. Other forums I've looked through, our current graphics is the biggest turn off. Then this forum, and then the learning curve for those who make it past this forum.
Sadly our forum has a bad rep for what we think is just verbal ACM with a touch of narcissism, sprinkled with sadism.
Everyone knows Aces High is the top Ivy League Air Simm Prep School in the country. It's just we are so snotty, no one needs us. So they all catch the cross town yellow bus to the free public school War Thunder and all the attendant problems with the concept of "Free". After all, it's not like online air simm games are trying to turn out neurosurgeons or the next Leaders of the free world.
The moral of this profundity? We need them more than they need us.
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The new graphics may well cause interest in a 2 week peek. Other forums I've looked through, our current graphics is the biggest turn off. Then this forum, and then the learning curve for those who make it past this forum.
Sadly our forum has a bad rep for what we think is just verbal ACM with a touch of narcissism, sprinkled with sadism.
Everyone knows Aces High is the top Ivy League Air Simm Prep School in the country. It's just we are so snotty, no one needs us. So they all catch the cross town yellow bus to the free public school War Thunder and all the attendant problems with the concept of "Free". After all, it's not like online air simm games are trying to turn out neurosurgeons or the next Leaders of the free world.
The moral of this profundity? We need them more than they need us.
^ :old:
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Exactly. Once they get a taste of sirloin they will want filet mignon
Correct.
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War Thunder has reached 4 million registered accounts and is growing in popularity like wild fire.
I thought combat flight simulators were a dying niche in the gaming market?
/discuss
(http://www.sharonshares.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/herewego.jpg)
Over 90% of the WT player base plays in the arcade arenas.
ack-ack
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Well, I see advertisements for World of Warplanes and such in magazines like "Air Classic", and it pops up on my Youtube when I'm watching videos about planes. Surely Aces High will commence similar advertising after the graphics update.
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Over 90% of the WT player base plays in the arcade arenas.
ack-ack
If true, which I doubt. That leaves 400K players who prefer "simulation".
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I wonder if War Thunder is actually the real competition. At a point last week I checked the AH MA and it had approx 220 players when at the same time IL2 Cliffs of Dover had about 80 and IL2 Battle of Stalingrad had about 30. That's 110 hard core simmers that would otherwise be here (and none were in GV's). But competition is good as it keeps the cutting edge moving forward.
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WT can afford "eyes on" advertising saturating the market place. It's a free game with a corporate under writer. Someone set a budget against a time frame including buying eyes on blocks around the Internet and other places to make WT an Internet meme. Eyes on is cheaper by the package compared to "Results" advertising which describes success as new paying accounts due to the add spaces.
So if you don't have really deep pockets and your offering is not free. And you have to unseat a new Internet meme in the minds of a projected percentage of the possible consumer base. A new look, rebranding, Skuzzy gets a new 21st century BFG9000 ban hammer for this free advertising tool called the forum.
Smile for the camera, grit your teeth, and talk nice into the mic. Whether you like it or not, everything you say here helps or hurts a percentage of new paying accounts. And if you have ever watched Bar Rescue, old established customers are many times what drives away new customers when a Bar is trying to rebrand itself and not go out of business.
Skuzzy gets a new 21st century BFG9000 ban hammer.............
Shores,
Check who the owns IL2 now.
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Pretty sure when I started it took about 2 years to get on Ch200 and the BBS.
Saying the BBS is a turn off is a ridiculous excuse to use; It's always gameplay and graphics :old:
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I dont like WT. I just dont like the entire set up.
I'd rather pay for something I like.
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Over 90% of the WT player base plays in the arcade arenas.
ack-ack
Which means their is a potential of some 400k people currently interested in a REALISTIC ww2 combat game.
Will htc capitalize on on that huge interest or will they continue doing business like they already have the magic formula?
I have seen all the silly arguments about why AH is dieing repeatedly for months. I can't think of one that was actually right.
Graphics are nice, but game play is king. You could have the best looking game of video checkers in the world, but you won't make money from it by improving the graphics.
The most successful MMOs have one thing in common, complexity. And despite this complexity these games are driven by the most boring aspects you can imagine, mining resources for example.
Who pays to watch a fantasy character swing a pick at a pile of rock or park a space ship next to a meteor? :rolleyes:
MILLIONS of people. They do it because there is a treasure to be found and they are on a quest, a MISSION that they MUST complete or die trying.
We have no such structure in the game. Nothing compels us to fight or even win the war.
It's the exact opposite, players on the same team are always at odds with each other. Those who just want to fight hate when base takers shut down a field. Those who want to take a field hate when furballers don't pitch in to help with the take or the war.
There is a way that the game could be structured to provide exactly what each of us wants but the geniuses that haunt this place will tell you "AH has been in business for 10 years, I think they know what they're doing"... and again... :rolleyes:
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What gets me is people who talk as though they're directly comparable.
They both have airplanes on the screen and you shoot at the other ones, but that's where the similarity ends.
WT is a game built around a far, far more popular type of game, round based instant action. This has always been more popular than open world combat. Open world MMO PVP is a niche market, not just WWII airplane pew pew, and that's why comparing WT to AH is pretty silly, IMO.
The most successful MMOs have one thing in common, complexity. And despite this complexity these games are driven by the most boring aspects you can imagine, mining resources for example.
Who pays to watch a fantasy character swing a pick at a pile of rock or park a space ship next to a meteor? :rolleyes:
MILLIONS of people. They do it because there is a treasure to be found and they are on a quest, a MISSION that they MUST complete or die trying.
And then there are those of us who do not want AH to turn into a Skinner box.
We have no such structure in the game. Nothing compels us to fight or even win the war.
It's the exact opposite, players on the same team are always at odds with each other. Those who just want to fight hate when base takers shut down a field. Those who want to take a field hate when furballers don't pitch in to help with the take or the war.
There is a way that the game could be structured to provide exactly what each of us wants but the geniuses that haunt this place will tell you "AH has been in business for 10 years, I think they know what they're doing"... and again... :rolleyes:
Well, it's just that simple then. They just need to structure the game to provide exactly what each of us wants.
Wiley.
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WT is a game built around a far, far more popular type of game, round based instant action. This has always been more popular than open world combat.
Wrong.
WoW, Runescape and EvE online are not instant combat and they are THE most popular and most successful.
What gets me is people who talk as though they're directly comparable.
What gets me is when people who clearly don't do any research...
And then there are those of us who do not want AH to turn into a Skinner box.
...shout warnings with vague, unarticulated fears of potential failure.
Open world MMO PVP is a niche market, not just WWII airplane pew pew, and that's why comparing WT to AH is pretty silly, IMO.
The largest MMOs on the net ARE open world and cant possibly be called a niche by any intelligent person.
But even if WT and AH arent directly comparable, which I agree with in a manner because they are not Coke and Pepsi, WT players will never know that because they have one criteria for describing the game... "I can fly ww2 airplanes."
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Has any long term MMO ever rebranded themselves as an evolutionary step to keeping up with changing demographics? Or did they evolve the game itself into something more which attracted the new demographics?
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I put a good 700+ hours into War Thunder before I got interested in DCS and AH. I've played about 70-80 simulator battles, and they take a long, LONG time to get in. That's why I switched, the only part of the game I really want to play for fun rather than grinding levels is deserted.
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Meh..
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WoW, Runescape and EvE online are not instant combat and they are THE most popular and most successful.
Do you actually work at being thick? While they are the most popular of all games, they are also not realtime combat. They are not even remotely comparable to a game like this.
WT is realtime combat, which is its largest similarity to AH, but it is a completely different style from WT, which among realtime combat games, is of a type that is far more popular type than an open world do as you like style, like AH. Does that make more sense to you?
What is your point? Are you suggesting if they are to survive, HTC should shut down the sim and go where the money's at and make a fantasy MMO?
What gets me is when people who clearly don't do any research...
...shout warnings with vague, unarticulated fears of potential failure.
The thing that makes MMO's popular is the whole 'hit the buzzer, get a cookie' (aka skinner box) gameplay which you mentioned. As much as it may be difficult for you to understand, there are people, many of them playing this game, that find that style of gameplay abhorrent.
The largest MMOs on the net ARE open world and cant possibly be called a niche by any intelligent person.
Oh, they are? Thank you for enlightening me, Muzik. Your vast knowledge on the subject is truly impressive. Also note, those games have completely different gameplay from a game like AH. They don't require people to have special peripherals, nor a particularly beefy computer by today's standards, and therefore have a much broader appeal than a game like this.
They are open world, they are NOT:
-Open PVP
-Realtime combat
-Flight Sims
But even if WT and AH arent directly comparable, which I agree with in a manner because they are not Coke and Pepsi, WT players will never know that because they have one criteria for describing the game... "I can fly ww2 airplanes."
Yep. Some other criteria
"I don't have to pay money."
"It is instant action."
Wiley.
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Sadly our forum has a bad rep for what we think is just verbal ACM with a touch of narcissism, sprinkled with sadism.
Truth.
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Has any long term MMO ever rebranded themselves as an evolutionary step to keeping up with changing demographics? Or did they evolve the game itself into something more which attracted the new demographics?
Many MMOs that have been around a long time do both in various ways. For example, EQ 'rebranded' itself with EQ2 as the 'next evolutionary MMO step' to attract a new demographic for that franchise while WoW has evolved themselves through content updates and expansion in response to the changing market/demographics. The current WoW is a far different game than when it was released.
ack-ack
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Кремль
So Nefy, is Putin your real world shade account?
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Many MMOs that have been around a long time do both in various ways. For example, EQ 'rebranded' itself with EQ2 as the 'next evolutionary MMO step' to attract a new demographic for that franchise while WoW has evolved themselves through content updates and expansion in response to the changing market/demographics. The current WoW is a far different game than when it was released.
ack-ack
So this is well within HTC's ability to evolve and stay strong then?
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Do you actually work at being thick? While they are the most popular of all games, they are also not realtime combat. They are not even remotely comparable to a game like this.
Exactly, and out of those three examples, only Eve can be considered to be an "open world/sandbox" MMO. WoW and Runescape are both 'theme park' MMOs.
You were correct in your comparison in your previous post, WT and AH only have in common is the planes. WT and WoWP are more comparable to multiplayer games like CoD and Battlefield and are aimed at those demographics/market.
ack-ack
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Кремль
So Nefy, is Putin your real world shade account?
Sorry no, just a little friendly joke. I've actually never had a shade account.
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So this is well within HTC's ability to evolve and stay strong then?
Yes it is.
Lets take a trip down memory lane and revisit a game that is dear to many of us here that we spent untold hours wasting our lives on, Air Warrior. Most people blame EA for its demise when actually, nothing could be further from the truth. Air Warrior was already dead because Kesmai failed time after time to 'evolve' the game. How many remember how many years it took to get new planes in AW? When AW4W was the primary version of Air Warrior, we went years without any substantial updates to the game and the player base started to dwindle. Even with the release of AW2 and later AW3, years went by before any substantial updates. In the first year of playing AH, I saw more updates to the game than I saw in over 6 years of playing AW. The most significant update AW ever received wasn't even made by Kesmai, it was the player created SAC tool that let us change the skins of our planes and terrains. That is why AW eventually died and it was too late by the time EA bought out Kesmai to save it.
ack-ack
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I still think War Thunder is good for Aces High even if nearly none of its current player base is suited to Aces High. It spreads at least some awareness of WWII fighter planes to more people, keeping that awareness alive, and I do think that at least some tiny portion of them might eventually find Aces High thanks to starting out in War Thunder.
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Everyone knows Aces High is the top Ivy League Air Simm Prep School in the country. It's just we are so snotty
:aok
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Ack-Ack nailed this one.
With dwindling numbers there is another problem as well. A good number of the people that are left for the most part are good players. A new guy coming in when the numbers were up had a higher chance of running into another person of the same skill level. Now, the odds are he or she is going to run into a person that is at reasonably good and want live long.
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I put a good 700+ hours into War Thunder before I got interested in DCS and AH. I've played about 70-80 simulator battles, and they take a long, LONG time to get in. That's why I switched, the only part of the game I really want to play for fun rather than grinding levels is deserted.
Curious to know how you came about finding AH after spending a long amount of time playing WT. <Marketing question.
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Everyone knows Aces High is the top Ivy League Air Simm Prep School in the country. It's just we are so snotty
Brooke you are such a frat boy...........
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Do you actually work at being thick?
Are you really that ignorant of how clueless you are?
While they are the most popular of all games, they are also not realtime combat.
Do you comprehend the English language? The word combat for example?
Every one of those games has combat in real time. The fact that it is fantasy swords and magic potions doesn't make it any less "combat" or "real time."
Does that make more sense to you?
No? Not yet?
EvE online just made the biggest news in gaming history for what? Can you guess? If you can guess real time combat, it would be the only thing I've ever seen you say that was correct and I've watched your epic intellect for far too long.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/eve-online-epic-game-battle-ends-after-21-hours-300000/
Though I have to say the next little gem of a brain fart of yours does come close to being accurate...
They are not even remotely comparable to a game like this.
...but still no cigar. These games are not compared to AH because AH hasn't evolved.
The only differences between these games and AH is the "realms" they exist in and they didn't stop at modeling weapons and combat conditions. They modeled civilizations.
They all have real time combat, they are all persistent worlds and they all make money one way or another.
"Does that make more sense to you?"
Those games model economy, adventure and aspects of fantasy role playing that AH has ignored.
Take for example the simple request to allow downed pilots to be picked up by jeeps, boats or float planes. Instead htc has developed a hard line and narrow view of combat and failed to grow richer in the details and realities of warfare.
WT is realtime combat, which is its largest similarity to AH, but it is a completely different style from WT
Just because AH is a ww2 combat game doesn't take it out of the same category as games that are also MMO fantasy combats.
They are different fantasies and business models ONLY.
Does that make more sense to you?
What is your point? Are you suggesting if they are to survive, HTC should shut down the sim and go where the money's at and make a fantasy MMO?
You are a truly special kind of boy. You don't have the capacity to understand my suggestion and not wise enough to ask before you speak therefore I got no more to explain to you.
The thing that makes MMO's popular is the whole 'hit the buzzer, get a cookie' (aka skinner box) gameplay which you mentioned. As much as it may be difficult for you to understand, there are people, many of them playing this game, that find that style of gameplay abhorrent.
I wont waste any time discussing a complex subject like the psychology of gaming behavior with you when you don't even understand the definition of combat or real time.
Oh, they are?
Oh they are...what? Which of my comments are you referring to? Please keep your conversation on the page, not in your rattled thoughts.
Thank you for enlightening me, Muzik. Your vast knowledge on the subject is truly impressive.
I try, but it would be easier if you just listen and contemplate instead of trying your hand at intellect.
Also note, those games have completely different gameplay from a game like AH. They don't require people to have special peripherals, nor a particularly beefy computer by today's standards, and therefore have a much broader appeal than a game like this.
They are open world, they are NOT:
-Open PVP
-Realtime combat
-Flight Sims
Yep. Some other criteria
"I don't have to pay money."
"It is instant action."
:rolleyes: :lol Ok, I already adressed most of this, I will ignore the other brain farts unless you try thinking some more.
You don't know what you are talking about wiley and you rarely do. But if you think you can argue this point with me, go ahead and skin that smoke wagon and see what happens.
Exactly, and out of those three examples, only Eve can be considered to be an "open world/sandbox" MMO. WoW and Runescape are both 'theme park' MMOs.
Pfft, theme park? Because they are fantasy games that takes them out of the MMO combat category? Go ahead argue that one.
You were correct in your comparison in your previous post, WT and AH only have in common is the planes. WT and WoWP are more comparable to multiplayer games like CoD and Battlefield and are aimed at those demographics/market.
In case neither of you can grasp my comments, I wasn't making any comparison of AH to WT or WOWP. But since you brought it up I commented to hitech years ago about FA and IL-2 not being direct competitors. He took some offense to that.
But despite my comment I never believed those games were no competition at all. They do take a share away from AH even if only because people are too lazy to look for or try something new.
So go ahead and tell hitech they are no competition. He'll likely agree just to spite me, but those games will take a toll and the only thing htc can do to counter it is to stand further and further apart in features.
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Every one of those games has combat in real time. The fact that it is fantasy swords and magic potions doesn't make it any less "combat" or "real time."
Combat in WoW, Runescape and Eve Online isn't "real time", it's basically a soft turned based combat system, also known as a "tick based combat system".
It would help if you understood what real time combat is and what turned based (or tick based combat) is and the differences between the two.
For example, in a MMO with a real combat system, if an archer was to fire an arrow at you, you could move and avoid it. In a turn based combat system, hits and misses are determined by 'rolls' and you wouldn't be able to jump out of the way of an arrow to avoid it. Whether or not the arrow hits you is up the the "roll".
Real time combat is also referred to as 'twitch combat'.
EvE online just made the biggest news in gaming history for what? Can you guess? If you can guess real time combat, it would be the only thing I've ever seen you say that was correct and I've watched your epic intellect for far too long.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/eve-online-epic-game-battle-ends-after-21-hours-300000/
Eve Online made news not because of it's combat system but because of the sheer size and cost of the battle.
The only differences between these games and AH is the "realms" they exist in and they didn't stop at modeling weapons and combat conditions. They modeled civilizations.
The main difference between the three MMORPGs you listed is that they are a different genre of MMOs than AH is and aren't really a good comparison to make against MMOs like AH.
They all have real time combat, they are all persistent worlds and they all make money one way or another.
Again, neither of those games you listed have real time combat. I already explained what kind of combat systems they have, so I won't repeat myself again.
Those games model economy, adventure and aspects of fantasy role playing that AH has ignored.
Different types of MMO with different game design philosophies. Basically, apples and oranges.
Pfft, theme park? Because they are fantasy games that takes them out of the MMO combat category? Go ahead argue that one.
With your reply, it's obvious that you really don't know what you're speaking about when it comes to MMOs. Open world/sandbox games give you the freedom to do what you want, play how you want, progress how you want, etc. In an open world/sandbox MMO, the developers basically threw you the tools and said, "Here, do what you want and have fun".
A Theme Park MMO is one that guides you through the progression of the game, from starting level to end game. The developers control the experience, from the first time you log in and create a new character and every time after, until you reach the level cap.
An example of an open world/sandbox game would be Star Wars Galaxies (before the NGE reboot). You, as the player were given the tools to create the world as you saw fit and weren't restricted by the developers in what you could do. Wanted to be a dancer and a master fencer? No problem. Just wanted to be a merchant or shipwright? No problem. Be farmer? No problem. As I also mentioned, Eve Online also allows the same sandbox experience. WoW and Runescape do not, which is why they are considered to be theme park MMOs. The MMOs I work on (FINAL FANTASY XI and FINAL FANTASY XIV) are perfect examples of theme park MMOs, though FINAL FANTASY XI is more in the old school style and doesn't hold your hand as much as current theme park MMORPGs do.
Being a theme park MMORPG has no relation to being a fantasy based game, like you seem to think it does.
ack-ack
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Thanks, Ack-Ack. Saved me a bunch of typing.
And Muzik, I do not need to go heeled to get the bulge on a tub like you. :)
Wiley.
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Has anyone considered that HTC may not want huge numbers of players?
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An example of an open world/sandbox game would be Star Wars Galaxies (before the NGE reboot). You, as the player were given the tools to create the world as you saw fit and weren't restricted by the developers in what you could do. Wanted to be a dancer and a master fencer? No problem. Just wanted to be a merchant or shipwright? No problem. Be farmer? No problem. As I also mentioned, Eve Online also allows the same sandbox experience. WoW and Runescape do not, which is why they are considered to be theme park MMOs. The MMOs I work on (FINAL FANTASY XI and FINAL FANTASY XIV) are perfect examples of theme park MMOs, though FINAL FANTASY XI is more in the old school style and doesn't hold your hand as much as current theme park MMORPGs do.
Being a theme park MMORPG has no relation to being a fantasy based game, like you seem to think it does.
ack-ack
Dumbfounded that someone else heard of SWG, loved that game.. beats WoW anyday.
Also, could your "Theme-park" definition be called "On rails"?
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muzik one thing to consider is pretty simple, on eveonline that battle people left work early to go "fight the battle". here in aces high by the time you leave work and get home that battle would have been over and done with. heck the full war would have been fought and won and a new one would have started.
semp
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Dumbfounded that someone else heard of SWG, loved that game.. beats WoW anyday
Also, could your "Theme-park" definition be called "On rails"?
Not really, 'on rails' tends to mean another type of game, mostly shooter types. Shooter games that don't allow 3D movement are usually referred to being 'on rails'. This is an example of an 'on rails' shooter, it's House of the Dead: Overkill.
(http://www.411mania.com/game_article_pictures/17113.jpg)
And a classic 'on rails' space shooter.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2f/Star_Fox_-_Gameplay.png)
Some people also call theme park MMO's "roller coaster rides", but that's usually among players and not an industry term.
ack-ack
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Has anyone considered that HTC may not want huge numbers of players?
Anyone considered it is none of our business? :old:
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Combat in WoW, Runescape and Eve Online isn't "real time", it's basically a soft turned based combat system, also known as a "tick based combat system".
Ah yes, the typical ack-ack deflection, fact spinning maneuver.
So in other words, instead of a millisecond of action/render/reaction, they use a one second action/render/reaction. Or whatever insignificant number they actually use.
Why don't you just tell the truth, NONE of them are literally real time. And don't forget to clarify that those games are NOT turn based at all.
It would help if you understood what real time combat is and what turned based (or tick based combat) is and the differences between the two.
I understand well enough that you are nit picking fractions of a second.
For example, in a MMO with a real combat system, if an archer was to fire an arrow at you, you could move and avoid it. In a turn based combat system, hits and misses are determined by 'rolls' and you wouldn't be able to jump out of the way of an arrow to avoid it. Whether or not the arrow hits you is up the the "roll".
Real time combat is also referred to as 'twitch combat'.
Again with your pathetic fact twisting. You keep throwing in BS about turn based games to confuse those who can't see through you. Those games are not really turn based. Players don't stop and wait for other players to roll dice or pick somewhere to go. They fight and react as fast as they can input commands.
For all intents and purposes it is real time.
Eve Online made news not because of it's combat system but because of the sheer size and cost of the battle.
A REAL TIME <---- (was it not?) video game battle made national, and probably international, televised news. It was the biggest gaming news in history and you are missing the point or deflecting in an attempt to salvage a lost argument.
It is a real time game and combat which you stated could not be compared to AH simply because the vehicles used to fight and the environment is a fantasy world instead of ww2 combat.
They use vehicles of various types and capabilities.
AH uses vehicles of various types and capabilities.
They have combat.
We have combat.
They wander freely in a persistent game environment and do what they please and when they please.
AH players wander freely in a persistent game environment and do what and when they please.
They join player organized activities.
We join player organized activities.
They pretend to be spaceship captains of the future.
We pretend to be airplane captains of the past.
They have idiots.
We have you and wiley.
The main difference between the three MMORPGs you listed is that they are a different genre of MMOs than AH is and aren't really a good comparison to make against MMOs like AH.
You must not be at the top of the gaming industry ladder. Let me explain it to you. Every game, every fictional book, every legend and every movie has a story to tell.
There is a hero, in video game terminology that's the player in case you don't get it.
There is the quest, that's the object of the game along with all of the experiences the hero encounters in his journey, no matter how specific or vague that object is.
And there is a battle no matter if it's words, swords, magic or bullets.
They are all the same at the heart of it.
The point that you are clearly unable to understand is that if AH chose to, it could be something much more than just a simple flight game. It could add an economic and resource aspect to the game that affects the war. It could add a generic population which is affected by extended sieges, which affects morale, which affects weapon production... There could be technology trees, and on and on and on.
If any game company chose to they could create a nearly identical game to EvE accept in a ww2 environment. A game where players built economies, war production capabilities and controlled countries instead of zones of space and building space ships.
But I'm not suggesting any of that. This is a flight sim at its core, but there are still far more simple aspects that could be added to increase the complexity and appeal of this game specifically to enrich the air war and ground war.
I already explained what kind of combat systems they have, so I won't repeat myself again.
Good because your explanation was a pathetic twisting of facts.
With your reply, it's obvious that you really don't know what you're speaking about when it comes to MMOs. Open world/sandbox games give you the freedom to do what you want, play how you want, progress how you want, etc. In an open world/sandbox MMO, the developers basically threw you the tools and said, "Here, do what you want and have fun".
Hmm, so you're saying that I can't log on to runescape, wow or EvE and do what I want at my own pace?
Just more of your fact twisting BS. Let's prove it shall we.
WoW
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEvW64bTeBk
Runescape
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YG95PsYVb7M
EvE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEFRFiRLrPQ
Let me expose the facts that you are trying twist.
Every one of those games lets you take off into the game and go just about anywhere and do anything you want to do. You don't have to battle anyone, you can run at the first sight of a fight or you can join a horde and gang up on weaker opponents.
In an open world/sandbox MMO, the developers basically threw you the tools and said, "Here, do what you want and have fun".
You are also suggesting that AH lets you enter the game and do or have anything you want. Not true at all is it? We have perk restrictions on certain aircraft and we have score restrictions on CVs.
A Theme Park MMO is one that guides you through the progression of the game, from starting level to end game. The developers control the experience, from the first time you log in and create a new character and every time after, until you reach the level cap.
Again more ignorant BS. No one forces players in those games to do anything. Players work for higher levels for personal glory the same as players in AH play for score.
A player who joined WoW because he liked to fight with swords or potions isn't forced by the game developers to gain levels, he gains them simply as a result of playing just like we gain score and perks.
Just because the developer creates challenges or tasks that result in rewards that make the players journey easier doesn't mean he is forced to do anything.
And btw, AH took some pages out of that book too. "Achievements." We don't get any rewards other than recognition, but it is the same concept. But more importantly, perks. We are "forced" as you put it to fly high eny planes to gain more perks faster so we can afford perk planes.
We practice and dogfight to see who is top gun or we join hordes to win wars. They practice and sword fight to see who can be the most powerful warriors or wizards or join clans to win wars.
An example of an open world/sandbox game
blah blah blah. FACE REALITY, they are the same. They have different weapons, different clothes, different universes and different rules, but they are the same.
I'm done with your retarded semantics.
And Muzik, I do not need to go heeled to get the bulge on a tub like you.
Wiley. I forgot you were there.
Is that a fact? I said throw down boy. You don't impress me cuz you recognized that. I wanna hear your own argument.
If ack acks argument is all you got, it just got shot full of holes. Are you going to do something or just stand there and bleed?
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Muzik chill out. AKAK actually works games for a living. What do you do? Not a diss. Just reality check. Argue the facts, not the person.
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It's clear from your reply that you don't understand at all what I posted. I'm not surprised, unlike me, you don't have any experience working in the gaming industry, specifically on MMO games.
ack-ack
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And don't forget to clarify that those games are NOT turn based at all.
Actually, yes they are. In WoW you have a weapon speed, the weapon speed determines how many attacks per round you get....etc, etc.
Think of it like the way Baldur's Gate turned turn based AD&D combat into something that looked like it was real time.....but isn't.
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Actually, yes they are. In WoW you have a weapon speed, the weapon speed determines how many attacks per round you get....etc, etc.
Think of it like the way Baldur's Gate turned turn based AD&D combat into something that looked like it was real time.....but isn't.
So because mk30 fires at a slower rate compared to mgs, AH is also turn based. If players can act and counter act during the attack, it's not turn based anymore.
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Has anyone considered that HTC may not want huge numbers of players?
Surely, you can't be serious?
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So because mk30 fires at a slower rate compared to mgs, AH is also turn based. If players can act and counter act during the attack, it's not turn based anymore.
AKAK is right about WoW being a tick based game.
WoW uses what is called a GCD (Global Cool Down). A GCD puts a limit on how many actions a player can perform in any given tick. That being said, I still consider WoW to be much closer to real time based than turn based. In WoW, movement is done in real time and is a massive component to their combat system.
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Surely, you can't be serious?
Don't call him "Surely" :devil
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Surely, you can't be serious?
HTC seem to be doing pretty well for themselves and with only a staff of half a dozen people. I don't recon they're looking for ways to spend more time at work than they already do if they don't have to. Aces High is practically a mom and pop business, I don't see that changing anytime soon. And I'm thankful for that.
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HTC seem to be doing pretty well for themselves and with only a staff of half a dozen people. I don't recon they're looking for ways to spend more time at work than they already do if they don't have to. Aces High is practically a mom and pop business, I don't see that changing anytime soon. And I'm thankful for that.
That's "size of the company" not "number of players" ;)
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Muzik and Ripley, if you can't see the fundamental difference between tick based combat and physics based twitch combat, and feel the need to argue that they're the same, I don't know what to tell you. I'm not particularly interested in your forthcoming explanation that it's all the same because instructions can only go through the CPU sequentially.
I'm glad they gave you back your computer privileges, Muzik. You may go now.
Wiley.
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So because mk30 fires at a slower rate compared to mgs, AH is also turn based. If players can act and counter act during the attack, it's not turn based anymore.
What Kazaa said.
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Has anyone considered that HTC may not want huge numbers of players?
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,345408.msg4560625.html#msg4560625
"ABSOLUTLY NOT TRUE, Small as in number of employes. not Small as in size of player base.
HiTech"
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I think that if HTC gets its new version out by summer, or at least a playable beta, they will be catching the tide perfectly so far as War Thunder simulation players go. With the proper advertising campaign, or even just a solid product and word of mouth/internet/etc spreading the word, even a tiny fraction of those 400,000 simulation players could end up over here. Imagine going from 2000 or so players in the scoring database to 10,000 in a few months time. Numbers greater than the old Titanic Tuesdays, say closing in on the 1000 online players or so could be in the future should everything work out well. I truly believe that, as I remember the days in the late 99 early 2000 when there were 500 players around this game in its infancy.
I'm sure HTC would really, and I mean REALLY take off if that kind of revenue came pouring in - the ability to hire and support some extra hands to help out with the time consuming and difficult tasks such as aircraft/vehicle creation and all that - I believe it's possible, and certainly a better case scenario with where the company here could go. I'm sure there are many others that feel this way, and honestly that's what has kept me around waiting for the last few years, and it looks now to be more and more plausible. Only a fraction of a percentage point of the players over at WT who likely haven't even heard of this game yet, would be needed to migrate over here to greener pastures, and it can easily happen. I'm sure Ack Ack due to the nature of his job (gaming intelligence etc) could give dozens of examples of this type of thing happening out there.
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Every online game has 'ticks' also AH. AH just has probably more network ticks per minute than some other games.
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Every online game has 'ticks' also AH. AH just has probably more network ticks per minute than some other games.
The distinction is, when it comes to combat in a game like this, or COD, or Skyrim the calculations for hitting/missing happen as the projectile or weapon moves through the environment, not at the moment it fires like in a tick based game.
Wiley.
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AKAK corrected, it's undisputable unless you're trolling.
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The distinction is, when it comes to combat in a game like this, or COD, or Skyrim the calculations for hitting/missing happen as the projectile or weapon moves through the environment, not at the moment it fires like in a tick based game.
Wiley.
In most games this is done client side so each players clients only need to keep track of their own projectiles. Although there's probably some sort of smoothing algorithm that calculates the expected enemy projectile / player positions per tick, which causes warping if the prediction doesnt match the server feed.
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In most games this is done client side so each players clients only need to keep track of their own projectiles. Although there's probably some sort of smoothing algorithm that calculates the expected enemy projectile / player positions per tick, which causes warping if the prediction doesnt match the server feed.
Yup, to be honest I'm not 100% certain bullets in COD aren't hitscan, but the effect is somewhat similar, the bullet hits its target instantly at the moment of firing, no delay, no trajectory, no animation that doesn't match what happened.
Wiley.
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AKAK is right about WoW being a tick based game.
WoW uses what is called a GCD (Global Cool Down). A GCD puts a limit on how many actions a player can perform in any given tick. That being said, I still consider WoW to be much closer to real time based than turn based. In WoW, movement is done in real time and is a massive component to their combat system.
That's why games like WoW are considered to be 'soft turn based' since they allow positioning and movement in real time but the actual combat itself isn't in real time. The combat feels real time because the combat itself has been sped up give players that impression.
FFXIV, uses a combat system almost identical to WoW's but the difference between the two is the speed. Where WoW's combat has been sped up, FFXIV's combat has been slowed down. WoW has around a .5 second delay between attacks (auto-attacks), while the delay between auto-attacks in FFXIV is 3 seconds, which gives FFXIV a slower 'turned based' combat feel which is a trade mark of the Final Fantasy games.
There are a number of MMOs that are coming out that feature a more real time combat system, these MMOs are commonly referred to as ' MMOARPGs' (Massively Multiplayer Online Action RPG), though some of these still use virtual dice rolls to calculate hits and misses.
ack-ack
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That's why games like WoW are considered to be 'soft turn based' since they allow positioning. One of the 'tricks' devs use to make it seem more 'real time' is they increase the speed of the combat. Let's look at the combat of WoW and FFXIV. Both have soft-turned based combat but WoW seems to be more 'real time' because they've increased the speed of the combat (think it's a half second delay), whereas in FFXIV combat is far slower (3 second delay), giving the game a much more turned based feeling of combat.
ack-ack
Can't not agree.
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Everything in life is essentially a done in a tick.
The time it takes for the consciousness to conjure a thought, have the nerves react, then have our eyes contemplate the results isn't done in real time. :aok
Think I just blew my own mind.
Anyway, back on topic.
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Everything in life is essentially a done in a tick.
The time it takes for the consciousness to conjure a thought, have the nerves react, then have our eyes contemplate the results isn't done in real time. :aok
Think I just blew my own mind.
I seem to recall reading a paper once that was making the case that every single perception we have is actually a memory. ...Where's the bong?
Wiley.
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I don't need a bong to contemplate the mysteries of the universe. To be honest, I don't think I could handle it. Gazing on the stars during a clear night is enough to make me exhale and say to myself: "Fcuk" :D
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Muzik chill out. AKAK actually works games for a living. What do you do? Not a diss. Just reality check. Argue the facts, not the person.
I'm not excited. I've danced with those two enough to know the outcome of the argument; they lose as the cat comes out of the bag the more they talk. I responded to wiley with his own condescension and ackack stepped in it too.
Oh, and no need to remind us what akak does, he's said it a trillion times. Sounds like someone who's actions aren't as loud as his words.
It's clear from your reply that you don't understand at all what I posted. I'm not surprised, unlike me, you don't have any experience working in the gaming industry, specifically on MMO games.
ack-ack
It's clear from your reply that you fell flat on your face and cant BS your way out of this one, so you are tucking tail and running.
Actually, yes they are. In WoW you have a weapon speed, the weapon speed determines how many attacks per round you get....etc, etc.
How fast does all that happen?
And tell me, do you stop your turn and WAIT for the other player to take his turn?
If you stand there and don't take a turn does an enemy stop bashing you?
You don't really need to answer that because the answer is right there in your post...
Think of it like the way Baldur's Gate turned turn based AD&D combat into something that looked like it was real time.....but isn't.
It LOOKS real time. What akak is saying is essentially a lie because he knows that it is "turn based" from a programming standpoint ONLY. From a players standpoint it is "fire at will." As for wiley, he doesn't know any better.
For all intents and purposes it is real time and ackack and wiley are trying to say those few fractions of a second and cosmetic differences mean that AH has NOTHING in common with those games.
They are retarded, semantic arguments that deflected from the point I made, AH could be more.
Muzik and Ripley, if you can't see the fundamental difference between tick based combat and physics based twitch combat, and feel the need to argue that they're the same, I don't know what to tell you...
That's because you hit the top of your 32 IQ. You need 34 to understand plain English.
I never brought up the insignificant programming differences of the games. The two of you just don't have the capacity to grasp common sense.
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Muzik's winning yet another thread, I see.
(https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608033688386209612&pid=15.1)
(Psssst - more words do not make a convincing case when there really wasn't one to start with.) :D
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Every online game has 'ticks' also AH. AH just has probably more network ticks per minute than some other games.
Bingo!
Every program has "ticks." Code is read and processed one digit at a time.
Semaaaaaaan--ticks
Muzik's winning yet another thread, I see.
Thanks for finally admitting it.
(Psssst - more words do not make a convincing case when there really wasn't one to start with.) :D
Or in your case PICS :ahand
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That's "size of the company" not "number of players" ;)
Are you being captian obvious or are you trying to say that HTC wouldn't need to grow if they had huge numbers of customers?
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Are you being captian obvious or are you trying to say that HTC wouldn't need to grow if they had huge numbers of customers?
We once had much more customers and HTC seemed to handle them fine... with still striving for even more growth (remember the stated reason for the arena split in 2006?)
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Yes HTC did, but never close to huge numbers.
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I put a good 700+ hours into War Thunder before I got interested in DCS and AH. I've played about 70-80 simulator battles, and they take a long, LONG time to get in. That's why I switched, the only part of the game I really want to play for fun rather than grinding levels is deserted.
welcome
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muzik one thing to consider is pretty simple, on eveonline that battle people left work early to go "fight the battle". here in aces high by the time you leave work and get home that battle would have been over and done with. heck the full war would have been fought and won and a new one would have started.
semp
You're not thinking possibilities here semp, but you're not being honest either.
We have base takes that last for hours. Half days even. You always try to frame AH in the mold it's made of instead of thinking about how it could be.
AH doesn't have to stay like it is for you to stay interested in it.
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I put a good 700+ hours into War Thunder before I got interested in DCS and AH. I've played about 70-80 simulator battles, and they take a long, LONG time to get in. That's why I switched, the only part of the game I really want to play for fun rather than grinding levels is deserted.
Glad to see you here.
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I put a good 700+ hours into War Thunder before I got interested in DCS and AH. I've played about 70-80 simulator battles, and they take a long, LONG time to get in. That's why I switched, the only part of the game I really want to play for fun rather than grinding levels is deserted.
Gang him!
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You're not thinking possibilities here semp, but you're not being honest either.
We have base takes that last for hours. Half days even. You always try to frame AH in the mold it's made of instead of thinking about how it could be.
AH doesn't have to stay like it is for you to stay interested in it.
it would be cool to plan a mission that will last for hours. the only time I have seen it was back in aw when cz and az planned a joint mission to take all bz land. it took us almost a week of planing and it was a blast. we left the bz with just a few bases that were uncapturable. the full mission lasted probably about 5 or 6 hours. the last mission of the day was to take over hawaii, we had over 300 to 400 players participate.
wish things like this would happen in ah but the attitude is different in this game.
semp
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wish things like this would happen in ah
They do in special events.
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Pretty sure when I started it took about 2 years to get on Ch200 and the BBS.
Saying the BBS is a turn off is a ridiculous excuse to use; It's always gameplay and graphics :old:
You have no idea how wrong you are. This BBS drives off more customers than the game could ever do. People use the bulletin board for help. It is the first line of support, for many people.
The general complaints I get involve words such as arrogant, egotistical, nasty, rude, inconsiderate, and so on. Notice a theme?
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You have no idea how wrong you are. This BBS drives off more customers than the game could ever do. People use the bulletin board for help. It is the first line of support, for many people.
The general complaints I get involve words such as arrogant, egotistical, nasty, rude, inconsiderate, and so on. Notice a theme?
So AH is the linux of flight sims...
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You have no idea how wrong you are. This BBS drives off more customers than the game could ever do. People use the bulletin board for help. It is the first line of support, for many people.
The general complaints I get involve words such as arrogant, egotistical, nasty, rude, inconsiderate, and so on. Notice a theme?
Wouldn't be surprised if the outdated graphics turned most people away before they even become a BBS member. I try to convince people who're into simulated aviation to give Aces High a look and they all think Aces High was made a decade ago.
Awesome physics only go so far.
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Wouldn't be surprised if the outdated graphics turned most people away before they even become a BBS member. I try to convince people who're into simulated aviation to give Aces High a look and they all think Aces High was made a decade ago.
Mirrors my own experience, and that included the appearance of the AH website as well. :(
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The general complaints I get involve words such as arrogant, egotistical, nasty, rude, inconsiderate, and so on. Notice a theme?
Maybe you should try autogenic training to control your dark side? :old:
:D
:bolt:
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You have no idea how wrong you are. This BBS drives off more customers than the game could ever do. People use the bulletin board for help. It is the first line of support, for many people.
The general complaints I get involve words such as arrogant, egotistical, nasty, rude, inconsiderate, and so on. Notice a theme?
This proves my point, it's an excuse.
For those players leaving AcesHigh because of Community, the Graphics and Gameplay were not good enough to overcome the bad within the Community.
There are many games that exist that have truly terrible communities (worse than AcesHigh by thousand fold) but because Graphics and Gameplay are king, they retain their players and in huge numbers.
AcesHigh has a poor community limited to about 20 people. AcesHigh is lucky, other games have then in their 1000s.
When gameplay and graphics in AcesHigh meets standards, the community wont matter, it will retain it's players regardless of it's community.
Your theme here is something that has existed in gaming and competition since inception. Online gamers are numb to it, and have been since they were first called a noob.
As for help, the Help and Training section is clearly marked and easily locatable, well maintained, trainer corps (outside of the TC, people giving their time), and full of useful information.
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About every six months or so, my interest returns to this game..
So I come on to see what is happening.. LOL OK, I got it now..
It wasn't "Graphics" that drove me away, or keeps me coming back!
This thread made up my mind.. See ya in another six months!
Sayanara :salute :bolt:
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About every six months or so, my interest returns to this game..
So I come on to see what is happening.. LOL OK, I got it now..
It wasn't "Graphics" that drove me away, or keeps me coming back!
This thread made up my mind.. See ya in another six months!
Sayanara :salute :bolt:
You're not forced to read the o'club if you want to play AH. Just a hint.
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This proves my point, it's an excuse.
For those players leaving AcesHigh because of Community, the Graphics and Gameplay were not good enough to overcome the bad within the Community.
There are many games that exist that have truly terrible communities (worse than AcesHigh by thousand fold) but because Graphics and Gameplay are king, they retain their players and in huge numbers.
AcesHigh has a poor community limited to about 20 people. AcesHigh is lucky, other games have then in their 1000s.
When gameplay and graphics in AcesHigh meets standards, the community wont matter, it will retain it's players regardless of it's community.
Your theme here is something that has existed in gaming and competition since inception. Online gamers are numb to it, and have been since they were first called a noob.
As for help, the Help and Training section is clearly marked and easily locatable, well maintained, trainer corps (outside of the TC, people giving their time), and full of useful information.
One of the most popular online games (League of Legends) is notorious for its truly hostile community. Yet their game is still played by tens of millions of people per month.
Aces High is probably one of the most welcoming community I've ever had the pleasure of being apart of. That being said, I like to think I'm smart enough to not take certain people seriously, which I'm sure helps...
For Skuzzy to say that the community is driving away more customers than the game itself is just so bizarre. Do they not even understand the market they're in?
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This proves my point, it's an excuse.
For those players leaving AcesHigh because of Community, the Graphics and Gameplay were not good enough to overcome the bad within the Community.
There are many games that exist that have truly terrible communities (worse than AcesHigh by thousand fold) but because Graphics and Gameplay are king, they retain their players and in huge numbers.
AcesHigh has a poor community limited to about 20 people. AcesHigh is lucky, other games have then in their 1000s.
When gameplay and graphics in AcesHigh meets standards, the community wont matter, it will retain it's players regardless of it's community.
Your theme here is something that has existed in gaming and competition since inception. Online gamers are numb to it, and have been since they were first called a noob.
As for help, the Help and Training section is clearly marked and easily locatable, well maintained, trainer corps (outside of the TC, people giving their time), and full of useful information.
You are missing a very important perspective. We are a subscription service. People tend to expect more when they pay that subscription.
Yes, the training and support aspects of the board are decent and helpful, but if someone accidentally strolls into the general forum and tries to get help, they are met with a rather caustic bunch of responses.
I am part of several other game boards and while there is no end of negative posting, if someone asks for help, most of the responses are helpful. I have tested that, many times.
One of the most popular online games (League of Legends) is notorious for its truly hostile community. Yet their game is still played by tens of millions of people per month.
Aces High is probably one of the most welcoming community I've ever had the pleasure of being apart of. That being said, I like to think I'm smart enough to not take certain people seriously, which I'm sure helps...
For Skuzzy to say that the community is driving away more customers than the game itself is just so bizarre. Do they not even understand the market they're in?
Do you understand I am only regurgitating what is said in many emails and PM's I get weekly?
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You are missing a very important perspective. We are a subscription service. People tend to expect more when they pay that subscription.
Correct. You guys are held to a higher standard, but it's just customer service... it's not rocket science.
You don't have to fix every issue for every person, you just have to not act indifferent. It's a lie most of the time, but when your customers feel like you care, they will be more tolerant to the things you screw up. :)
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@Skuzzy
Have you ever thought about only allowing people to use their real name? I know of one service which does this. The people who post in their community forum are absolutely angelic. I'm sure it makes people think twice about being a troll when they can't hide behind a avatar/screen name.
They do this by using both the first and last name of the credit/debit card as players screen name.
edit: To be honest, you might even lose customers if you did this. I'm sure many of the AH community have done/said things they regret and don't have the gonads to face the harsh consequences that come with reality.
edit: spelling.
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Correct. You guys are held to a higher standard, but it's just customer service... it's not rocket science.
You don't have to fix every issue for every person, you just have to not act indifferent. It's a lie most of the time, but when your customers feel like you care, they will be more tolerant to the things you screw up. :)
If we did not care, we would not bust our butts everyday to provide a better sandbox for people to play in. We would not be trying to make it a better place for most everyone.
@Skuzzy
Have you ever thought about only allowing people to use their real name?
I know of one other service which does this and the community is angelic. I'm sure it makes people think twice about being a troll when they can't hide behind a avatar/screen name.
If that were a requirement, I would never sign up to a board. Many people want that bit of security which comes with anonymity. In most cases, it is a good thing. People are willing to talk when they can safely hide behind a fake name. Yes, it has it downside, but we really hope the upside outweighs it.
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Correct. You guys are held to a higher standard, but it's just customer service... it's not rocket science.
You don't have to fix every issue for every person, you just have to not act indifferent. It's a lie most of the time, but when your customers feel like you care, they will be more tolerant to the things you screw up. :)
I'm not sure I understand but that is the nature of a BBS. Are you saying HTC, or any like company, should lie to their customers in some way to appease them and at the same time have no intention of going any further?
This sounds like my Civilian Personnel Office :rofl "Mr. ammo, thank you for contacting us. Your opinion and customer satisfaction are very important to us. We will assign an action officer to look into your complaint/issue. If you haven't heard from us in 6 weeks, that doesn't mean we are still working on your specific issue. Please be patient"
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@Skuzzy
Have you ever thought about only allowing people to use their real name? I know of one other service which does this. The people who post in the community forum are angelic. I'm sure it makes people think twice about being a troll when they can't hide behind a avatar/screen name.
They do this by using both the first and last name of the credit/debit card as players screen name.
edit: To be honest, you might even loose customers if you did this. I'm sure many of the AH community have done/said things they regret.
Absolutely 100% agree.
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If we did not care, we would not bust our butts everyday to provide a better sandbox for people to play in. We would not be trying to make it a better place for most everyone.
Oh I'm sure you do, but I'm also sure it gets tedious to answer the same questions and handle the same issues over and over and over.
I'm not sure I understand but that is the nature of a BBS. Are you saying HTC, or any like company, should lie to their customers in some way to appease them and at the same time have no intention of going any further?
This sounds like my Civilian Personnel Office :rofl "Mr. ammo, thank you for contacting us. Your opinion and customer satisfaction are very important to us. We will assign an action officer to look into your complaint/issue. If you haven't heard from us in 6 weeks, that doesn't mean we are still working on your specific issue. Please be patient"
No. What I'm saying is, you have to appear to give a damn even when you don't. Always. Anything less is poor customer service. "Giving a damn" on a BBS can be as simple as typing a sensible response in a timely fashion.
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No. What I'm saying is, you have to appear to give a damn even when you don't. Always. Anything less is poor customer service. "Giving a damn" on a BBS can be as simple as typing a sensible response in a timely fashion.
Most boards from what I've seen, appearing to give a damn when you don't by the developers has generally resulted in backlash due to people feeling lied to.
Wiley.
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No. What I'm saying is, you have to appear to give a damn even when you don't. Always. Anything less is poor customer service. "Giving a damn" on a BBS can be as simple as typing a sensible response in a timely fashion.
So, you want lip service?
:headscratch:
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Oh I'm sure you do, but I'm also sure it gets tedious to answer the same questions and handle the same issues over and over and over.
No. What I'm saying is, you have to appear to give a damn even when you don't. Always. Anything less is poor customer service. "Giving a damn" on a BBS can be as simple as typing a sensible response in a timely fashion.
We seldom find ourselves answering the same question over and over. Even when we do, we simply answer it. There is nothing tedious about it. A question was asked, an answer was provided.
We never have to pretend to care. We do care. It is our livelihood at stake.
That said, there are times when we are not going to answer somethings as it is either an inappropriate question, or it is a question whose answer would just make things worse.
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You are missing a very important perspective. We are a subscription service. People tend to expect more when they pay that subscription.
No I didn't disregard that perpective. Gameplay and Graphics are the core.
The subscription requires the core but also active Game Development which improves both core areas.
When the cores fall behind the mainstream by a margin the community aspect becomes more of a factor.
Going back to it being an excuse; Graphics and Gameplay being of a high enough standard to convince some to tolerate a minority in the Community.
The new update when finally shipped out hopefully will reset the balance. :salute
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Most boards from what I've seen, appearing to give a damn when you don't by the developers has generally resulted in backlash due to people feeling lied to.
Wiley.
That only happens when the dev/customer service people are terrible at their job.
So, you want lip service?
:headscratch:
Define lip service.
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@Skuzzy
One example I would use is the recent bru-ha-ha over the 12 hour limit. I read a post a few days ago from HiTech, plainly stating that "spies" and other concerns have nothing to do with the rule, rather it was about the balance of the 3 countries, and HT went on to very accurately and simply state the reasons for this, with plenty of examples and evidence. I honestly until that post hadn't even considered that, and it made everything pretty clear, at least for me.
The problem is, instead of just SAYING that at the beginning of the week long drama over the issue, it didn't happen until much, much after the fact. I don't understand that, at all. Why the reluctance to just make that same post on page 1 of the first complaint about the 12 hour rule - by delaying it until days, if not weeks later....this is specifically why some customers get the impression, rightly or wrongly, that HTC either doesn't care, or is almost "aloof" so far as answering customer complaints. This is just my observation and opinion.
This is the post in question, HT posted it May 3 - IMO if this was posted on page 1 of the start of all the 12 hour complaint threads, it would have probably averted a lot of the problems, and subsequent PNG's and subscription cancellations. I'll certainly never question that HTC cares about the product, or even the customers, however in this recent case, acting on those cares in a different and more expedient fashion, in fact precisely the below post from HT, I personally believe would make great strides in the perception of the care HTC has with a lot of customers.
This is very close to my opinion, including the 6 hour, I do not know for sure if 6 hours works as well as 12, but I do know from stats, 1 hour does not work well. Most people assume that the limit was raised do to "spying issues". It was nothing to do with it. It is a simple fact that our stats show less of country imbalances with 12 hour vs 1 hour time limits with 1 hour the countries seem to always be out of balance. And the swings are constantly moving to different countries. With 12 hours the % of the swings are a lot less and the frequency of swings are less frequent.
I also understand the desire to be able to fly in the morning on week ends, and change again flying in the evening. And I have no problem with that concept. But I am also fairly sure that changing to 6 hours would have 0 impact on the amount of complaints and we would still have the same amount of kn-ashing of teeth for 1 hour, even though I know 1 hour creates greater country imbalance vs longer.
So things may or may not change in the future, but things will not change to any thing close to 1 hour. The value chosen is base on the damping effect of oscillation do to players changing side along and with desire to keep the time long enough that an immediate change and change back can not be used for a strategic advantage.
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We seldom find ourselves answering the same question over and over. Even when we do, we simply answer it. There is nothing tedious about it. A question was asked, an answer was provided.
We never have to pretend to care. We do care. It is our livelihood at stake.
Fair enough. This board is a departure from many I'm a member of then. Probably the most reoccurring theme from those boards as it relates to Moderator/member interaction is having to answer the same questions from different people over and over. Anybody who's spent any time dealing with the public can understand how that makes you a bit jaded.
That said, there are times when we are not going to answer somethings as it is either an inappropriate question, or it is a question whose answer would just make things worse.
Inappropriate I can handle. Usually the person asking an inappropriate question is a moron, so ignoring them is the most polite way to tell them to stfu. It's the perfectly legit questions that go unanswered that will hurt you. That makes you appear to either not care, or not have any answers, neither of which is good. Even a "I'm not sure, but I'll look into it for you" is much better than no answer at all.
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The problem is, instead of just SAYING that at the beginning of the week long drama over the issue, it didn't happen until much, much after the fact. I don't understand that, at all. Why the reluctance to just make that same post on page 1 of the first complaint about the 12 hour rule - by delaying it until days, if not weeks later....this is specifically why some customers get the impression, rightly or wrongly, that HTC either doesn't care, or is almost "aloof" so far as answering customer complaints.
The guys at HTC don't read EVERY post on the BBS, and sometimes it will take days before they decide to look at a particular thread. I'm guessing when they get wind of the "discussion" going on, they start reading and by that time there are probably pages and pages of numptiness to get through.
If someone presses the "report to moderator" button, rest assured that HTC will read that post as soon as possible.
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I understand that, but in this case, when there were multiple intercessions in those threads through moderation, days and weeks prior to the aforementioned post from HT, it sort of kills your argument there. I do agree in many instances you're likely right, and I've seen Skuzzy say precisely the same thing before, and I believe him, but in this recent example, it just wasn't the case, as it was a known trouble issue/thread from the first few hours, and spilled over into many more threads, with the results already mentioned. Again, all I'm saying is that in that specific case, that post from HT IMO would have certainly have altered the direction things headed if it was the first point of contact between HTC and the complaining customers, instead of coming days or weeks later in an entirely different topic/thread - it certainly changed my viewpoint of the whole situation, albeit retroactively.
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@Skuzzy
One example I would use is the recent bru-ha-ha over the 12 hour limit. I read a post a few days ago from HiTech, plainly stating that "spies" and other concerns have nothing to do with the rule, rather it was about the balance of the 3 countries, and HT went on to very accurately and simply state the reasons for this, with plenty of examples and evidence. I honestly until that post hadn't even considered that, and it made everything pretty clear, at least for me.
The problem is, instead of just SAYING that at the beginning of the week long drama over the issue, it didn't happen until much, much after the fact. I don't understand that, at all. Why the reluctance to just make that same post on page 1 of the first complaint about the 12 hour rule - by delaying it until days, if not weeks later....this is specifically why some customers get the impression, rightly or wrongly, that HTC either doesn't care, or is almost "aloof" so far as answering customer complaints. This is just my observation and opinion.
This is the post in question, HT posted it May 3 - IMO if this was posted on page 1 of the start of all the 12 hour complaint threads, it would have probably averted a lot of the problems, and subsequent PNG's and subscription cancellations. I'll certainly never question that HTC cares about the product, or even the customers, however in this recent case, acting on those cares in a different and more expedient fashion, in fact precisely the below post from HT, I personally believe would make great strides in the perception of the care HTC has with a lot of customers.
You guys think we read the posts on the board everyday? Nope, never.
We are a small company, and we have a lot of work on our plates with the current development. Not an excuse, just a fact. Interrupting that development is expensive. Once you get on a solid path of creating, it hurts to stop it and try to restart it again. Sort of takes the winds out of the sails. This has probably cost us a week of development time, if not more. How much will that cost us in the long run? Quite a bit.
We have made it no secret we are in a long development cycle. We want to get that done as fast as possible. We have been very vocal about what we have been doing. If people insist on using the bulletin board to brow beat us, then they are going to have to wait until we can get to it. We cannot simply stop doing what we are doing each time someone thinks we should.
Once we got a window to respond, the damage was done. People have to understand there are consequences on both sides of the fence, when things like this happen. They cannot be ignored. It is a choice to act respectful and decent or be a butthead. I can do both. I will give you what you give me.
Fair enough. This board is a departure from many I'm a member of then. Probably the most reoccurring theme from those boards as it relates to Moderator/member interaction is having to answer the same questions from different people over and over. Anybody who's spent any time dealing with the public can understand how that makes you a bit jaded.
Inappropriate I can handle. Usually the person asking an inappropriate question is a moron, so ignoring them is the most polite way to tell them to stfu. It's the perfectly legit questions that go unanswered that will hurt you. That makes you appear to either not care, or not have any answers, neither of which is good. Even a "I'm not sure, but I'll look into it for you" is much better than no answer at all.
What you think is "perfectly legit" may not be so. It is also how it is approached. There is always a right way, and a wrong way. Like it or not, that is the truth. Demanding an answer is never a good approach.
I understand that, but in this case, when there were multiple intercessions in those threads through moderation, days and weeks prior to the aforementioned post from HT, it sort of kills your argument there. I do agree in many instances you're likely right, and I've seen Skuzzy say precisely the same thing before, and I believe him, but in this recent example, it just wasn't the case, as it was a known trouble issue/thread from the first few hours, and spilled over into many more threads, with the results already mentioned. Again, all I'm saying is that in that specific case, that post from HT IMO would have certainly have altered the direction things headed if it was the first point of contact between HTC and the complaining customers, instead of coming days or weeks later in an entirely different topic/thread - it certainly changed my viewpoint of the whole situation, albeit retroactively.
Just because we edit a post does not mean we read the thread. Right now, the board should be of secondary concern for us, as we have a lot to accomplish. For what we need to do, everyone needs to be patient.
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Just a side note.
A lot of this had to do with rumors and guesses. People thought we changed the rule due to spies, due to others screaming about it. Let me state this as emphatically as possible.
We never make changes due to threats, brow beating, or any other type of potentially coercive approach. NEVER!
Every change is all about the business. PERIOD!
Do, when you hear someone say, "must be the babies screaming for it", please stop that in its tracks. It only serves to create stupid moments where people end up being banned from the board.
People can ask for change, and we will look at it, when we can. It does not mean it will change. It may, in fact, cause something else to change because that is what was really needed to begin with. No matter what causes it, we will think about it and not leap into a bucket of poo because someone thinks we should.
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Do, when you hear someone say, "must be the babies screaming for it", please stop that in its tracks.
I would like to, but it's absolutely impossible.
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I would like to, but it's absolutely impossible.
I know, but a guy can dream. :)
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Gman has a good point.
I remember before the last ENY change there being several threads on the subject with opinions running the gambit. Hitech interjected very simply with, "Hmmm, maybe we'll have to take a look". It didn't take a lot of thought or effort, but it let everyone know that he was paying attention and gave the impression he was taking his customers opinions into consideration. I'm sure the ENY issue wasn't keeping him up at nights, and it probably had very little impact on actual game play, but his response pretty much diffused any arguing about it on the BBS.
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I know, but a guy can dream. :)
Is this a typo (up left first letter last word)?
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Gman has a good point.
I remember before the last ENY change there being several threads on the subject with opinions running the gambit. Hitech interjected very simply with, "Hmmm, maybe we'll have to take a look". It didn't take a lot of thought or effort, but it let everyone know that he was paying attention and gave the impression he was taking his customers opinions into consideration. I'm sure the ENY issue wasn't keeping him up at nights, and it probably had very little impact on actual game play, but his response pretty much diffused any arguing about it on the BBS.
You do not program for a living, do you? It does take a lot of effort to stop working on your future just to mitigate monsters created by others.
Customer opinions, when expressed with respect, are always considered, when it is the appropriate time to do so.
HiTech is not the one creating the monsters. Exercise some control people. We need him to be working on coad.
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You do not program for a living, do you? It does take a lot of effort to stop working on your future just to mitigate monsters created by others.
Customer opinions, when expressed with respect, are always considered, when it is the appropriate time to do so.
HiTech is not the one creating the monsters. Exercise some control people. We need him to be working on coad.
So what are all the people who work full time and still keep up with current topics on this forum doing wrong? You mean I have to program for a living to really feel like I put in a full day at work? C'mon man, you can't believe that.
Mitigating monsters? Is this the part where you tell me how much you care again?
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So what are all the people who work full time and still keep up with current topics on this forum doing wrong? You mean I have to program for a living to really feel like I put in a full day at work? C'mon man, you can't believe that.
Mitigating monsters? Is this the part where you tell me how much you care again?
Sigh. When a programmer is on a roll, you do not want to interrupt him/her. This is when they generate their best work. To stop them is risking introducing bugs into the code. Try interrupting a fire man when he is putting out a fire and see what happens. There are jobs that are just that way.
You see, this is one of those things that is quickly not going to be worth responding to. It no longer becomes constructive.
I give you honest answer and it just pisses you off. That is why many times we will avoid responding to things. Damned if we do, damned if we don't.
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See Rule #4
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People who have never done programming for a living have no concept of "the zone". ;)
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Sigh. When a programmer is on a roll, you do not want to interrupt him/her. This is when they generate their best work. To stop them is risking introducing bugs into the code. Try interrupting a fire man when he is putting out a fire and see what happens. There are jobs that are just that way.
You see, this is one of those things that is quickly not going to be worth responding to. It no longer becomes constructive.
Nobody is saying that anyone has to stop what they're doing right this minute and to run to the BBS just to satisfy people complaining about the 12 hour rule, ENY, or whatever. "We'll take a look at it" can be posted from your cellphone while sitting on the can. Sure, an in depth follow up might take up 10 minutes somewhere else, but c'mon... if you can't find 10 minutes to respond to your customers a couple times a week, you've got serious time management issues.
And this is just my opinion, but one rooted in running a small business. The "I don't have time" thing really only works with close friends and family. Just about every customer you serve expects you to get done what you need to get done, and they really aren't bothered if that means you're sitting in front of a computer answering messages at 8PM.
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Thanks for the response Skuzzy - I understand, and frankly agree with what you've said here, and I for one appreciate that you took the time to spell it out pretty succinctly. I think all of us as customers, at least the ones who haven't physically visited HTC to see what goes on during the day to day probably have incorrect ideas about how the BBS, game, and business interact with one another, myself included in that. Again, the only reason I even brought this point up was I found HT's post there on May 3 such a perfect response vis a vis company to customer regarding the entire 12 hour bbs debocale, that I just found it unfortunate that it wasn't at the start, versus the end of the entire thing. Your posts here today make me appreciate a little more how valuable yet limited HT's time is, and I for one would much rather see the benefits of him "coading" as opposed to wrestling on the bbs with disgruntled players, again, myself included. Overall I think the faster the new version/stuff comes out, the better off everybody will be, and as much as I feel that the response from HT regarding the 12 hour rule and his reasons for it was needed, if I had to choose between that and having the new version, there is no choice at all.
I guess my hope is in the future should the game gain a lot of new customers and momentum, which I hope will lead to an expansion of HTC so far as employees go, that when that time comes, whoever gets the hat of trying to please the mob would respond quickly to player complaints with well reasoned and supported posts like that one from Hitech on the 3rd of this month. That's all. I do understand how that isn't possible with hundreds or thousands of posts per day with a small business, and my attitude after reading that post from HT and some of the latest ones from Skuzzy has certainly shifted a little in the last few days.
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Gman, we don't see what goes on in HTC because they are yet to release a Developer Diary on the YouTube :D
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Nobody is saying that anyone has to stop what they're doing right this minute and to run to the BBS just to satisfy people complaining about the 12 hour rule, ENY, or whatever. "We'll take a look at it" can be posted from your cellphone while sitting on the can. Sure, an in depth follow up might take up 10 minutes somewhere else, but c'mon... if you can't find 10 minutes to respond to your customers a couple times a week, you've got serious time management issues.
And this is just my opinion, but one rooted in running a small business. The "I don't have time" thing really only works with close friends and family. Just about every customer you serve expects you to get done what you need to get done, and they really aren't bothered if that means you're sitting in front of a computer answering messages at 8PM.
I never said there was not time. You cannot just stop programming when you want to. You stop when it is done. Whether it is a function or a system or a complete utility. When you get into the 'zone' or on a roll, you have to finish.
That is just the way it is with programming. We are getting done what we need to get done. Our priorities may not match yours, but that is a different issue.
I chose to try and respond today. Other things will suffer for it. It happens when you have as much to do as we do, right now.
@Gman
You are welcome.
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I chose to try and respond today. Other things will suffer for it. It happens when you have as much to do as we do, right now.
And responding, whether you and I agree on the finer points or not, is still better than ignoring threads that HTC should participate in. It is appreciated and I hope it continues.
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... threads that HTC should participate in.
Alas, the 'should' part is opinion and requires Dale & co. sharing it to work. Face it, some threads (even when a half dozen or so folk hyperventilate in them) aren't really worthy. :aok
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And responding, whether you and I agree on the finer points or not, is still better than ignoring threads that HTC should participate in. It is appreciated and I hope it continues.
But that is what he is saying. He has wasted a good part of todays "work" time to spend the time on the BBS. In the future they will.... time allowing... work the boards but it no were near a top priority.
The ideal situation would be that they have the time to have some one field questions, monitor the boards, post updates, spin out youtube videos, update the web page, both the main and the trainers, but that just isn't the way it is. They do what they can when they can. The problem is that most that have been here a long time are spoiled with how quick HTC DOES respond, at how "hands on" they are as compared to other companies. When an answer is slow in coming its the end of the world for many.
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And responding, whether you and I agree on the finer points or not, is still better than ignoring threads that HTC should participate in. It is appreciated and I hope it continues.
We never ignore. That implies we actually read something and shrugged our shoulders. Again, another point of contention though. There are times you may think we should respond when we really should not.
There are some things a people will not be happy with unless we capitulate to their demands. When we don't, we get labeled as providing poor customer service. A misnomer, at best.
The reason we do not talk a bout a lot of things is due to intellectual property. Giving away how and why we do things is tantamount to telling our competition how to be successful. We stay very far away from that. Even trying to explain it may infringe on our IP is giving away information.
I will say this. Nothing in our game is done on a whim. It may not always turn out exactly the way we want, but we do give it a lot of thought.
But that is what he is saying. He has wasted a good part of todays "work" time to spend the time on the BBS. In the future they will.... time allowing... work the boards but it no were near a top priority.
The ideal situation would be that they have the time to have some one field questions, monitor the boards, post updates, spin out youtube videos, update the web page, both the main and the trainers, but that just isn't the way it is. They do what they can when they can. The problem is that most that have been here a long time are spoiled with how quick HTC DOES respond, at how "hands on" they are as compared to other companies. When an answer is slow in coming its the end of the world for many.
If someone sends me an email it gets answered. If someone sends me a PM, it gets answered as fast as I can get to it. Bulletin board responses are last on the list. Even now, I am at home doing this. I should be eating dinner with my family.
Right now, our "response time" is tied up in a massive update to the game. Once that is out, we can get back to our normal cycles and response times. Right now, it simply is not possible.
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When an answer is slow in coming its the end of the world for many.
Agreed. And ironic when some of that lot aren't even playing/supporting the game.
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I should be eating dinner with my family.
Yes! And your dinner guests. :D
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And responding, whether you and I agree on the finer points or not, is still better than ignoring threads that HTC should participate in. It is appreciated and I hope it continues.
HTC has given 'official' responses to threads and topics before and are ignored. Because re-occurring posts of the same topic (that has already been answered) keep surfacing. Thus, my posts of it being our job as the players to be understanding that HTC is putting forth time and effort to get things done. But nagging gets us no where. And while I understand your want for clarification, us nagging and threatening to leave/insulting HTC's integrity doesn't help them get anything done quicker. And them having to lock and re-answer multiple posts daily, doesn't assist their efforts.
They have been moving at a pace that I think is fine. Pointing out every 'imperfection' of something they plan on replacing, and trying character assassinations doesn't help anyone.
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I should clarify something I said. I do tend to the support forums regularly. Usually in the morning before I leave for work and during lunch as well. I also make an effort to get to them before I leave in the afternoon.
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I should clarify something I said. I do tend to the support forums regularly. Usually in the morning before I leave for work and during lunch as well. I also make an effort to get to them before I leave in the afternoon.
That's sort of my point. You guys give your all (and more) to getting things done, and yet some members of the BBS have the audacity to say otherwise. I think some members of the BBS don't know all that goes into making a game and testing out things (or running a company). And they make these assumptions and demands, then say they know all that goes into it. :headscratch:
I appreciate all the hard work you guys do, and even though I can't play right now, I appreciate the updates. At least you guys tell us what is going on, and socialize with us with informative and heart-filled comments. Rather than generalized statements for publicity/politics, like other companies. :salute
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wish things like this would happen in ah
They will or another game will beat them to it.
They do in special events.
I've had fun the few times I have gone, but I cannot do scheduled events that often. It's pretty certain that's the reason why you have low turn out comparatively.
Those kinds of historical scenarios could, and should, be an integral part of the MA so that old and new customers who enjoy them don't have to schedule their lives around those rare moments.
Of course, the htc unofficial motto, "it's all about air combat" not only ignores a large percentage of players but reduces the amount of air combat available because of of low player population (more these days than ever) due to a lack of diversity.
People who have never played a ww2 flight sim before come here expecting to find something that resembles ww2 or what they have seen in the movies 80% time.
What they find is a FFA that they cannot compete in.
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Wouldn't be surprised if the outdated graphics turned most people away before they even become a BBS member. I try to convince people who're into simulated aviation to give Aces High a look and they all think Aces High was made a decade ago.
Awesome physics only go so far.
Runescape is one of the largest online games on the web. Their graphics don't compare to any of it's higher end competitors.
Graphics are nice, but there is a price to pay for that kind of processing power.
If your friends didn't get hooked on AH maybe they aren't really interested in ww2 dog fighting or maybe it was the learning curve.
No I didn't disregard that perpective. Gameplay and Graphics are the core.
The subscription requires the core but also active Game Development which improves both core areas.
When the cores fall behind the mainstream by a margin the community aspect becomes more of a factor.
Going back to it being an excuse; Graphics and Gameplay being of a high enough standard to convince some to tolerate a minority in the Community.
The new update when finally shipped out hopefully will reset the balance. :salute
I agree, if people are going to come and stay, they have to be highly impressed with SOMETHING.
but I still say an innovative, complex game would way farther than graphics will ever take them.
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HTC has given 'official' responses to threads and topics before and are ignored.
Seems to me that whenever Skuzzy or Hitech make a post people take note of it.
Because re-occurring posts of the same topic (that has already been answered) keep surfacing. Thus, my posts of it being our job as the players to be understanding that HTC is putting forth time and effort to get things done. But nagging gets us no where. And while I understand your want for clarification, us nagging and threatening to leave/insulting HTC's integrity doesn't help them get anything done quicker. And them having to lock and re-answer multiple posts daily, doesn't assist their efforts.
They have been moving at a pace that I think is fine. Pointing out every 'imperfection' of something they plan on replacing, and trying character assassinations doesn't help anyone.
The point is, if legit questions are answered when a given subject comes up in a thread, it likely won't be brought back up again until something changes. Does this makes sense to you?
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Seems to me that whenever Skuzzy or Hitech make a post people take note of it.
The point is, if legit questions are answered when a given subject comes up in a thread, it likely won't be brought back up again until something changes. Does this makes sense to you?
did you notice your avatar?
semp
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did you notice your avatar?
semp
It's my avatar. Of course I noticed it.
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See Rule #4
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Ya know.....I was thinking just the other day that the post in the General forum by HT titled "this weeks update" is slightly misleading. The words "This week's" suggest updates are a regular, weekly event from HTC.....they're not, they never have been, there's been times over the the last 15 years where a yearly update hasn't been either. Once upon a time, many years ago, we had a Q&A forum.....
Either way, an actual 'weekly update' would go a very long way to keeping the great unwashed masses from wailing too loudly.
Actually, monthly would do....and would stop HT from having to post single word updates while still managing to mis-spell "coding".
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Runescape is one of the largest online games on the web. Their graphics don't compare to any of it's higher end competitors.
Graphics are nice, but there is a price to pay for that kind of processing power.
If your friends didn't get hooked on AH maybe they aren't really interested in ww2 dog fighting or maybe it was the learning curve.
I agree, if people are going to come and stay, they have to be highly impressed with SOMETHING.
but I still say an innovative, complex game would way farther than graphics will ever take them.
You're right about Runescape, it's a very popular game. But you're missing one thing. Runescape It's free 2 play. If you had to pay a monthly subscription to play Runescape, how many people do you think would play it then? How many people do you think would play it over other games which would essentially cost the same.
The people who I mention Aces High to are already sim enthusiasts. (like I said) It seems that they've tried almost every other simulation other than Aces High.
No doubt gameplay is king.
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Ya know.....I was thinking just the other day that the post in the General forum by HT titled "this weeks update" is slightly misleading. The words "This week's" suggest updates are a regular, weekly event from HTC.....they're not, they never have been, there's been times over the the last 15 years where a yearly update hasn't been either. Once upon a time, many years ago, we had a Q&A forum.....
Either way, an actual 'weekly update' would go a very long way to keeping the great unwashed masses from wailing too loudly.
Actually, monthly would do....and would stop HT from having to post single word updates while still managing to mis-spell "coding".
Swoop: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClTbiZpm7CZRQtwl3FjNxsg
We have been releasing updates the last three months, on what we have been doing. When we have something to show, we do. We know it is important while we are in this protracted development cycle.
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Banning is unfortunate especially considering the players revenue contribution.
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Banning is unfortunate especially considering the players revenue contribution.
It is unfortunate they make the choices they made, especially after being asked and then warned.
No subscription grants anyone the right to be disruptive. This is a place of business. All we ask is for people to give us the same consideration anyone would give to any other business (restaurant, retail store,....).
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Sometimes it must feel like this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcE5aDTszrY
:)
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At least you can use a cattle prod on sheep. :)
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It is unfortunate they make the choices they made, especially after being asked and then warned.
No subscription grants anyone the right to be disruptive. This is a place of business. All we ask is for people to give us the same consideration anyone would give to any other business (restaurant, retail store,....).
As a business person myself, I will never understand your rationale on this. In my opinion, banning someone is a deed akin to firing an employee. See, I always have that option...always. The option I will not always have is the opportunity to influence them to see things how the company sees them Skuzzy. Influencing in this case is simply providing some answer or a reason for not giving an answer. That isn't an absurd request. But answering curtly or purposely avoiding isn't really warning anyone. People ask questions because they care. If they didn't care they wouldn't ask at all nor would they reply in opposition.
You guys are the boss. You guys have all the "wins". If you believe anyone of us don't know you have that authority, you're underestimating all of us dweebs who have united to play this great game. But authority and influence are not the same. No one that I saw attempted to leverage their monthly subscription to facilitate change but that's how it appears people were dealt with.
Do any of us really deserve an answer about a decision HTC made about the game we all love so dearly that we can never stay gone for long? Probably not. But refusing to see that people's continued questioning of a decision is about their passion for the game, not their passion to be disruptive.
I hope the events of late have not ruined players passion for the game.
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It is unfortunate they make the choices they made, especially after being asked and then warned.
No subscription grants anyone the right to be disruptive. This is a place of business. All we ask is for people to give us the same consideration anyone would give to any other business (restaurant, retail store,....).
What are you calling disruptive? I admit I do not scour every thread on the BBS, but are we talking about avatar protests about the 12 hour rule? And what does our subscription grant us when we want a discussion about an aspect of the game we're not happy with?
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As a business person myself, I will never understand your rationale on this. In my opinion, banning someone is a deed akin to firing an employee. See, I always have that option...always. The option I will not always have is the opportunity to influence them to see things how the company sees them Skuzzy. Influencing in this case is simply providing some answer or a reason for not giving an answer. That isn't an absurd request. But answering curtly or purposely avoiding isn't really warning anyone. People ask questions because they care. If they didn't care they wouldn't ask at all nor would they reply in opposition.
You guys are the boss. You guys have all the "wins". If you believe anyone of us don't know you have that authority, you're underestimating all of us dweebs who have united to play this great game. But authority and influence are not the same. No one that I saw attempted to leverage their monthly subscription to facilitate change but that's how it appears people were dealt with.
Do any of us really deserve an answer about a decision HTC made about the game we all love so dearly that we can never stay gone for long? Probably not. But refusing to see that people's continued questioning of a decision is about their passion for the game, not their passion to be disruptive.
I hope the events of late have not ruined players passion for the game.
A customer is not an employee. A customer is my boss. Part of my responsibility makes the customer my boss. That is how I look at it.
When the boss decides he is going to be disruptive, and you ask him to please stop, and he does not, then you are left with little choice. Then when the boss seeks out others to join him in his disruptive binge, it has to be stopped.
This is not about people asking questions. This about people being disruptive to the entire community. Much like someone ranting and raving in a restaurant. Until you take care of that disruption, you cannot deal with anything else. If you do not take care of it, others will join in.
It is a lot easier to have a discussion when everyone is acting with a modicum of respect. That is all we have been asking for. I am really sorry there was no other way to deal with this mess, but we were given no other choice.
What are you calling disruptive? I admit I do not scour every thread on the BBS, but are we talking about avatar protests about the 12 hour rule? And what does our subscription grant us when we want a discussion about an aspect of the game we're not happy with?
I am not going to get into the details of private dealings with members of the community. Please respect that.
Just think about this. Do you really think we enjoy doing these things? It was the last thing we wanted to do.
We are always open to rational, respectful communications. What has happened in the last week, or so, was anything but that. The rationalization used was, "Well, if HiTech had only responded to us.." There is no rationalizing bad behavior. Not at all.
It went from bad to worse and there seemed to be nothing we could do about it because the instigators refused to listen to any voice of reason. They were clinging to an untenable position and then they drug others into it. It was looking more like a plague or cancer than anything else.
Of course, there are those who would say, "you could have stopped it had you only made the change". Guess what? A business cannot survive by making decisions based on threats.
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Sorry skuzzy, I may be wrong cause I don't read every post.. But I read most of what was typed on the subject in question.. If you guys saw what was requested/asked for clarification as threats, you're looking through the wrong lens.. Did it get on yall's nerves? Certainly! But my squad member's post that got him a png was certainly more true than disruptive and pretty much summed up the 'community problem'...
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Sorry skuzzy, I may be wrong cause I don't read every post.. But I read most of what was typed on the subject in question.. If you guys saw what was requested/asked for clarification as threats, you're looking through the wrong lens.. Did it get on yall's nerves? Certainly! But my squad member's post that got him a png was certainly more true than disruptive and pretty much summed up the 'community problem'...
Yes, you are wrong.
I have no way to respond to this as it is in the vein of someone claiming the color red is actually blue and wondering why we labeled it green.
Hard to discuss things like that.
By the way, the post is not what got him PNG'ed.
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It's hard for me to fathom something as insignificant as the current 12 hour rule (in the grand scheme of AH things) has caused such an uproar. I had a PM exchange with a Muppet member today about this and some of the fallout today - I expressed the same thoughts to him.
I guess I am a party that is indifferent to the issue. The rule does not negatively affect me having fun with the product. I do understand the proponent's argument to change the rule to allow some flexibility, and admittedly do not not understand HTC's complete push-back. I can recall back in 2002 when the rule was not in affect and was abused - but, ya know it did not affect my fun factor. I was never a "war winner" anyway.
Skuzzy is on point about one thing for sure - the folks arguing for a change to the rule, and those that just want to pile on for the sake of seeing their text in the BBS, need to learn respectful communication skills. Haven't you been taught you get more results with sugar than vinegar? Total lack of home training.
Rodney King, that criminal that was beat the hell up by LAPD, stated "can't we all just get along". This statement is relevant now.
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What Ammo said.
And Skuzzy, I mean more of a written update than a video. Just a short "been working on the waves this week, trying to get the look of breakers right from 1,500ft", for example. Something to wet the appetite of subscribers and give HTC a more personal image.....videos don't do that, unless there's commentary anyway. Lets have a word from the man himself, or anyone else on the team who'd like to tell us what they're working on next.
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What Ammo said.
And Skuzzy, I mean more of a written update than a video. Just a short "been working on the waves this week, trying to get the look of breakers right from 1,500ft", for example. Something to wet the appetite of subscribers and give HTC a more personal image.....videos don't do that, unless there's commentary anyway. Lets have a word from the man himself, or anyone else on the team who'd like to tell us what they're working on next.
We wish it was that fun. When you are re-writing a graphics engine there are days, if not weeks, filled with nothing but trig/geometry/calculus/algebra equations.
Sure, we could say, "We did more math this week!".
This is not glamorous work being done right now. It gets good when we get to applying the art.
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Yes, you are wrong.
of course I am... how did I know...
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of course I am... how did I know...
If you knew, then why ask? Is that all of my post you read?
My post is not meant to be antagonistic, but the way you worded it made it impossible to have any discussion.
Let me help. None of what has transpired with the suspensions and PNG's have anything to do with the 12 hour side switch timer.
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If you knew, then why ask? Is that all of my post you read?
I read the post.. Your board.. You're right.. I understand my help is not needed and certainly not asked for.. :salute
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Read my edit.
Until everyone stops running around, with their hair on fire, screaming, "It's about the 12 hour timer!", we are not going to get passed this.
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I read the post.. Your board.. You're right.. I understand my help is not needed and certainly not asked for.. :salute
It is our board, but it is for the community, at large. If someone does not oversee it and take care of it, then it will degrade to the point where a meaningful discussion cannot be had.
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It is our board, but it is for the community, at large. If someone does not oversee it and take care of it, then it will degrade to the point where a meaningful discussion cannot be had.
Like Youtube comments. :devil
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Like Youtube comments. :devil
Pretty much.
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A customer is not an employee. A customer is my boss. Part of my responsibility makes the customer my boss. That is how I look at it.
When the boss decides he is going to be disruptive, and you ask him to please stop, and he does not, then you are left with little choice. Then when the boss seeks out others to join him in his disruptive binge, it has to be stopped.
This is not about people asking questions. This about people being disruptive to the entire community. Much like someone ranting and raving in a restaurant. Until you take care of that disruption, you cannot deal with anything else. If you do not take care of it, others will join in.
It is a lot easier to have a discussion when everyone is acting with a modicum of respect. That is all we have been asking for. I am really sorry there was no other way to deal with this mess, but we were given no other choice.
I am not going to get into the details of private dealings with members of the community. Please respect that.
Just think about this. Do you really think we enjoy doing these things? It was the last thing we wanted to do.
We are always open to rational, respectful communications. What has happened in the last week, or so, was anything but that. The rationalization used was, "Well, if HiTech had only responded to us.." There is no rationalizing bad behavior. Not at all.
It went from bad to worse and there seemed to be nothing we could do about it because the instigators refused to listen to any voice of reason. They were clinging to an untenable position and then they drug others into it. It was looking more like a plague or cancer than anything else.
Of course, there are those who would say, "you could have stopped it had you only made the change". Guess what? A business cannot survive by making decisions based on threats.
First, I understand your point of view on this. I do not agree with your analogy. No one bans their boss and no one is able to put a stop to what their boss does. Right to work gives the boss the ability to fire anyone who doesn't pass his muster.
Lets move on to the correct analogy: you're the bartender and the PNG guys are at your bar and they've drank too much and are getting too loud because they felt the bar was short-pouring them a little bit. The tough part for you is that they are good customers. They've been coming to your bar for YEARS. You've personally served them for years and when others got loud with them it created an environment that caused others to be loud against their loudness. Chaos could have ensued had you not stepped in and thrown them out of your bar.
My point was this: as long standing customers, taking each one aside (PM or email) and explaining the nature of your position and offering them a cab ride home would have been an exceptional course action to take with them. You chose to throw them out of the bar.
Would this option have required more time? Yes. How much goodwill would you and your bar received and how many threads and signature changes would have been avoided?
That's all I was saying.
One question though: if the riot-inciters were PNGd for gathering a herd to push for the changes, why weren't the herd-haters thrown out of the bar for acting just as bad with their anti-change behavior? Furthermore, why weren't the fence setters who felt the need to post their neutrality in an obvious attempt at flame baiting kicked out too?
As it appears, the customers who wanted to check their pours were treated worse than the guys who created their own riot to stop the first complaints. Then, you had a large group in the corner of the bar by the pool tables screaming "KICK THE PISS OUT OF HIM!!!!"
There's a bit of inequity here regarding the dispensation of corrective action.
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Corrective action was done based on history. That is only accessible at HTC and we are not going to discuss it.
Suffice it to say, we did not just ban people without trying other things first.
Now, I will admit we did not try taking a baseball bat to their noggins to get their attention.
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First, I understand your point of view on this. I do not agree with your analogy. No one bans their boss and no one is able to put a stop to what their boss does. Right to work gives the boss the ability to fire anyone who doesn't pass his muster.
Lets move on to the correct analogy: you're the bartender and the PNG guys are at your bar and they've drank too much and are getting too loud because they felt the bar was short-pouring them a little bit. The tough part for you is that they are good customers. They've been coming to your bar for YEARS. You've personally served them for years and when others got loud with them it created an environment that caused others to be loud against their loudness. Chaos could have ensued had you not stepped in and thrown them out of your bar.
My point was this: as long standing customers, taking each one aside (PM or email) and explaining the nature of your position and offering them a cab ride home would have been an exceptional course action to take with them. You chose to throw them out of the bar.
Would this option have required more time? Yes. How much goodwill would you and your bar received and how many threads and signature changes would have been avoided?
That's all I was saying.
One question though: if the riot-inciters were PNGd for gathering a herd to push for the changes, why weren't the herd-haters thrown out of the bar for acting just as bad with their anti-change behavior? Furthermore, why weren't the fence setters who felt the need to post their neutrality in an obvious attempt at flame baiting kicked out too?
As it appears, the customers who wanted to check their pours were treated worse than the guys who created their own riot to stop the first complaints. Then, you had a large group in the corner of the bar by the pool tables screaming "KICK THE PISS OUT OF HIM!!!!"
There's a bit of inequity here regarding the dispensation of corrective action.
HTC has rules. Someone broke one, which one is irrelevant. Personally, I think HTC is too nice in terms of the PNG/ban hammer. They have allowed members of this BBS to get away with alot, and now that they are starting to get tired of it and 'crack down', people are complaining. And, in your analogy, sometimes people can't be reasoned with. Just look at many of the purse fights here on the BBS.
What Ammo said.
And Skuzzy, I mean more of a written update than a video. Just a short "been working on the waves this week, trying to get the look of breakers right from 1,500ft", for example. Something to wet the appetite of subscribers and give HTC a more personal image.....videos don't do that, unless there's commentary anyway. Lets have a word from the man himself, or anyone else on the team who'd like to tell us what they're working on next.
I think the reason why they do NOT do that is because they want to show that they actually did something. Saying they are working on this or that without being able to actually show the work/effort is pointless to them (from what I gather based on their actions). So while I understand that it seems like they aren't be responsive or whatever the case may be, I understand why they run things that way.
Like I've said before, multiple times, it is our job as players (some who say they understand business/gaming industry and how games are made) to be patient and understanding with HTC. They are working hard to create a game for, in my opinion, many whiny old men who can't wait. Seriously, just wait it out, I know it isn't fun, but whining at HTC isn't going to do anything and complaining because someone got PNG'd (whether you determine it was right or wrong is irrelevant).
Whether you start a riot or participate in it, the police still arrest you, this case is no different.
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I'm hearing these people have been given bans for this, when there is nothing I offensive or rule breaking, about the avatar/picture they have displayed.
I am confused
Unless you heard this from HTC, you are basing your opinion on rumors and personal agendas from those saying it. I don't think HTC owes anyone an explanation for why someone got PNG'd.
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4
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(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/banhammer.png)
I've been on the business end of this thing more than once. It's not pretty...
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@Skuzzy
Have you ever thought about only allowing people to use their real name? I know of one service which does this. The people who post in their community forum are absolutely angelic. I'm sure it makes people think twice about being a troll when they can't hide behind a avatar/screen name.
They do this by using both the first and last name of the credit/debit card as players screen name.
edit: To be honest, you might even lose customers if you did this. I'm sure many of the AH community have done/said things they regret and don't have the gonads to face the harsh consequences that come with reality.
edit: spelling.
if you are talking about Iracing there is no shortage of Aholes there either i love racing and got the game because of it yet there is almost 0 help on that game or forum that is not out dated by a long shot and if you ask for help your told to go read and learn about a car setup im sorry but i aint shelling out $1000 for content to be treated like that i honestly dont think this would solve anything at all
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Fixed
:rofl
I believe I see it from their perspective, whether you agree with it or not is your decision and right.
:cheers:
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:rofl
I believe I see it from their perspective, whether you agree with it or not is your decision and right.
:cheers:
See rule 15
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Posts of mine removed for fear of reprisals
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You're right about Runescape, it's a very popular game. But you're missing one thing. Runescape It's free 2 play. If you had to pay a monthly subscription to play Runescape, how many people do you think would play it then? How many people do you think would play it over other games which would essentially cost the same.
The people who I mention Aces High to are already sim enthusiasts. (like I said) It seems that they've tried almost every other simulation other than Aces High.
No doubt gameplay is king.
That's incorrect. Runescape is only partly free. Free members are limited to a smaller (i think) portion of the game map and limited in the items they can access in the game. Last I heard the owner of the game is worth 100 million.
So you are saying the friends you suggested AH to are "flight sim" enthusiasts? If so, I find it hard to believe they so quickly dismissed the game, but if that is the case, their lack of interest could also be explained in another hardline Htc game philosophy..."this is not a simulator."
I get their objective of keeping it fun, but the game is far too generic and graphics will only go so far.
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4
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(http://www.banklawyersblog.com/.a/6a00d8341c652b53ef0148c77cf9c3970c-800wi) :aok
:rofl
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See Rule #2
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #2
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See Rule #2
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See Rule #2
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #2
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Apparently this has run its course.