Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Kruel on June 08, 2014, 12:07:38 PM
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I think the scoring system in the game is too convoluted and complex with too many variables, Is there a post out there some where that details how all of these scores are calculated and how they are averaged together to give a final ranking in a category (Fighter/Bomber/Attack..ect).
I guess that's Wish #1. A detailed explanation of scoring (maybe on the scoring page itself?)
Wish #2: Simplify the scoring system
Were are considered the 'Greatest' Aces in WWII judged by their hit %? Their kills per hour? Obviously they couldn't be judged by Kill/Death ratio because they only had one life :) But I think Fighter Ranks should only be judged by the following factors:
Total # of Kills
Kill/Death Ratio
Kills/Sortie (there were always mentioned of how many kills an Ace had in a sortie/day)
** On a side note: Assists were counted as half/kills or 1/3 kills depending on how many Friendlies injured the kill. These were added up until they made a whole kill. (US did this, Germany Did not) but what do assists count for in this game? If they exist then they should count towards kill count, if they do nothing then remove them from the game. Nothing sucks more than spending ammo and blowing up a plane in a furball only to find out all you get is an Assist which really doesn't count for anything anyway.(if this is true)
Edit: An even better scenario is when let say someone takes a 30 to the fuselage (all systems OK) and they are RTB, then you find them and its a 1v1 and you take their wing off. You were really the one that kills them, but because you did less total damage you get an assist? :headscratch:
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Attack Sorties
Again should be scored the same as fighters as Air to Air kills.
Ground hits/targets should be counted differently as they are now and as they were during the war.
Ground Targets Destroyed
Bomb hit%
GVs(Tanks) destroyed.
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Bomber/Ground kills
Bombers were usually scored on:
Successful Bomber Missions flown(obviously successful ones as they had a quota to fill before they went home). (Sortie/Death ratio for purposes of the game)
On target bombs dropped (hit % with expensive Bombs)
Air targets killed (gunners).
Damaged Caused
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Being a new player it causes a bit of :headscratch: looking at someone like TonyJoey with 105:1 K/D(as of this post) and NOT being #1 in Fighter Ranks. Because his kills per hour are not high enough..yet his K/D ratio is 700% better the next person in line (Bruv). Any light shed on this would be greatly appreciated!
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Wish #1 has already been granted: http://www.hitechcreations.com/features/scoring
To wish number 2:
In short, if you take out kills/time for fighters you are changing the game dynamics. Right now, somone who takes flying "cautious" to the extreme has about no chance to end up #1, because his kills/time will suck (this is why the famous "protecting your score" by avoiding combat is actually just protecting your k/d, not your score as such.)
If you take out time as a factor, k/d alone will become massively important, making avoidment of any situation where you could possibly shot down very rewarding. Which ain't exactly great for gameplay in my opinion. Right now, someone who's avoiding a lot of combat opportunities to boost his k/d will pay the price.
And finally kills/time is a sign of skill. It's far more difficult to get a lot of kills, with a good k/d AND having a great k/time than just having many kills and a good k/d.
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Kills per sortie is actually a weak measurement because it is basically a test of whether you re-arm or not.
Kills per hour is the most important scoring metric to retain, and probably the one most indicative of skill IMO. Albeit it is a bit unfair to our friends across the world who have to hunt fights in off-peak.
I agree that hit percentage is bad to have as a scoring metric, although I would like it to continue to be kept track of. I don't see how it matters if you are getting the job done of shooting planes down. When I fly .50 planes a lot, my hit percentage always drops because those planes have lots of ammo and can hit from way out, which means plugging away even on relatively low percentage gun solutions is the rational thing to do. When I fly the La7 a lot, my hit percentage shoots way up because to hit with those guns I generally must damn near ram them before pulling the trigger. I don't see why an element of fighter piloting scoring should basically favor some gun packages over others.
Of course, all this is academic because I truly do not care about score rank in and of itself, I fly almost all my sorties as "attack" because it keeps me out of a caring about score mindset.
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Score Fun Facts (http://www.michael-elliott.com/wikis/ww2planes/index.php?n=Site.Score)
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Although a decent score in fighter can be found fighting, I wish score was removed all together.
Too many take their score protecting to the extreme, circling like 20k sharks at even a whiff of a furball, running 25miles+ if they lose their advantage, running to friends if they are beginning to be given a hard time. the list goes on.
As for the removal of kills per time, that would only serve to make things worse. This OP wish is to severely ruin what gameplay there is in AcesHigh. I can't support in away way expect into the nearest trash can.
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Very good post Kruel and even better answers.
However, I have personally found that when I am able to throw caution to the wind and just have fun with my squadees and buddies, it usually yields the best score result. :headscratch:
I do make a conscious effort to score the majority of my "fighter" sorties in the "attack" category, that helps as I like the group effort base capture portion of the game as well as the dogfight action.
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Too many take their score protecting to the extreme, circling like 20k sharks at even a whiff of a furball, running 25miles+ if they lose their advantage, running to friends if they are beginning to be given a hard time.
This does not really protect score. It mainly does protect K/D, which for some reason is being constantly confused with "score".
You could see my own fighter score as an example. I could have a much better overall fighter score if my kills / time weren't so low, even at a huge expense of K/D.
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Ok, i found a much better example of highlighting the K/D vs score perception problem.
For this, I looked up the player with the greatest discrepancy between a high K/D and a low k/h of last tour. Let's call him Player A:
K/D 28
K/S 1.56
k/H 1.37
hit% 2.5
points 7507
Even with this extremely high K/D (4th place!) he ended up at #708, not at least due to his rather abysmal k/h
So what would have happened if he had doubled his K/H wile retaining only a quarter of his K/D?
K/D 7
K/S 1.56
k/H 2.74
hit% 2.5
points 7507
I ran the numbers, and he would have ended up #526, that's almost 200 ranks better
If the K/D vs K/H disparity was the result of a try to "protect his score" (as people are usually quick to allege), it surely backfired.
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I say don't fix what isn't broken. I mean if Bruv is ranked #1 then that is normal right? ;)
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I like to shoot at the moon, trees, barns, photon emitting particles or anything else that may cross my path.
That does not effect my score does it?
:bolt:
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Wow. Honestly, before this thread I had no idea that getting killed had such little relevence toward ones rank and score.
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Excellent post! Now explain the collision model again Sisyphus ;)
Ok, i found a much better example of highlighting the K/D vs score perception problem.
For this, I looked up the player with the greatest discrepancy between a high K/D and a low k/h of last tour. Let's call him Player A:
K/D 28
K/S 1.56
k/H 1.37
hit% 2.5
points 7507
Even with this extremely high K/D (4th place!) he ended up at #708, not at least due to his rather abysmal k/h
So what would have happened if he had doubled his K/H wile retaining only a quarter of his K/D?
K/D 7
K/S 1.56
k/H 2.74
hit% 2.5
points 7507
I ran the numbers, and he would have ended up #526, that's almost 200 ranks better
If the K/D vs K/H disparity was the result of a try to "protect his score" (as people are usually quick to allege), it surely backfired.
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See rule #4
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See rule #4
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See rule #4
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See rule #4
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See rule #4
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See rule #4
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I play when there are maybe 45 to 70 players online. Many of them are in GV's leaving maybe 30 in the air.
My K/H score is likely to be horrible since I usually have to fly a long way to get into a fight and if I win I then have to continue flying to find another fight or go home if one does not materialise. I could of course get a kill and then auger rather than flying home, that would effectively double my K/H score :D
I am probably more firmly in the 'get rid of score' camp. Sure I use my K/D as a barometer of how well I may be flying this tour but that really does depend on both how I decide to engage and the quality of the enemy players. If I keep coming up against superior talent my score is going to suck. But it gets reset at the end of the month so who cares right?
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Add ENY/Kill and Assists/Death components to the current fighter score system.
ENY/Kill would be simple as it sounds; what you are using to get your kills. A player that gets 90% of his kills in 5 ENY planes would suffer in this category. This would encourage score potatos to get kills in lesser rides, like a real "top gun"( ;)) could.
Assists/Death is a measurement of how many pilots are required to kill you. If most kills on you were unassisted, then you are probably easy to kill and/or don't take any chances (timid). Now if you typically have 2 or 3 assists on every death, that indicates a more formidable pilot.
Adding these two things would give a better representation of who the "real" #1 is.
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ENY/Kill would be simple as it sounds; what you are using to get your kills. A player that gets 90% of his kills in 5 ENY planes would suffer in this category. This would encourage score potatos to get kills in lesser rides, like a real "top gun"( ;)) could.
I foresee problems. The current ENY system is fast and loose with the numbers and often how many bombs a plane can carry and suchlike has as much to do with ENY number as it's capacities as a fighter. For instance, the 110G, Seafire, and 109 K4 currently all have an ENY of 15. Hint: One of these things is not like the others...
Adding these two things would give a better representation of who the "real" #1 is.
Isn't that what dueling brackets are for?
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See rule #4
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Please do not add to or change the current fighter scoring system. Works well enough. :aok
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Gunnery % disadvantage plane types with different types of guns that have different trajectories.
I see a big difference in gunnery % flying the 109 compared with the 190 series with 4 main guns (The A5: 7.7mm 20mm FF 20mm 151, The A8: 13mm, 20mm 151, 30mm )
mk108)
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I WWII fighter pilots did not usually have the luxury to only engage when they held all of the advantages. The only thing that pushes a score oriented player into similar risk is that K/H is so important. Take that out and then K/D becomes paramount and encourages such players to be extremely timid, flying in a way that would have gotten them court martialed and, in the air forces of some combatants, killed for cowardice. Sure, you did what you could to maximize your advatages within the limits the task allowed, but when climbing to intercept inbound He111s in 1940 you didn't get to turn and run if there were higher Bf109s, when escorting Il-2s you didn't get to abandon them to their fate just because the Luftwaffe showed up in force.
In AH there is very limited pressure to engage in unfavorable circumstances and the OP proposes to remove some of what there is. I think that is a bad idea.
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There's no perfect scoring method. But removing kills/sortie (which basically tests "Do you use the rearm pad?") and hit % (which favors some gun packages over others, and attacking bombers over fighters) would help.
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See rule #4
So calling someone a midway is against the rule #4... being one is not... vraciu's any random post is definiately not rule #4 worthy... good to know :lol
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I WWII fighter pilots did not usually have the luxury to only engage when they held all of the advantages. The only thing that pushes a score oriented player into similar risk is that K/H is so important. Take that out and then K/D becomes paramount and encourages such players to be extremely timid, flying in a way that would have gotten them court martialed and, in the air forces of some combatants, killed for cowardice. Sure, you did what you could to maximize your advatages within the limits the task allowed, but when climbing to intercept inbound He111s in 1940 you didn't get to turn and run if there were higher Bf109s, when escorting Il-2s you didn't get to abandon them to their fate just because the Luftwaffe showed up in force.
In AH there is very limited pressure to engage in unfavorable circumstances and the OP proposes to remove some of what there is. I think that is a bad idea.
Well, exactly that was in the OP, a request to honorate the timidity.
Would be an awesome game to play...
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Well, exactly that was in the the OP, a request to honorate the timidity.
Would be an awesome game to play...
The OP's post mostly has to do with people who play off peak having to hunt bandits in ones and twos. It really is a bit unfair, but I don't think much can be done.
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The OP's post mostly has to do with people who play off peak having to hunt bandits in ones and twos. It really is a bit unfair, but I don't think much can be done.
Youre such an optimistic and good willing man. I would like to see the world in the same way.
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Well, exactly that was in the OP, a request to honorate the timidity.
Would be an awesome game to play...
Agreed, and I think that is a bad thing. Some people simply place K/D on a high pedestal as the ultimate and only real arbiter of skill and it really isn't even a very good arbiter of skill.
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Agreed, and I think that is a bad thing. Some people simply place K/D on a high pedestal as the ultimate and only real arbiter of skill and it really isn't even a very good arbiter of skill.
not one bit of the scoring or ranking system is a indicator of skills..
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not one bit of the scoring or ranking system is a indicator of skills..
have to disagree the top 20 fighter pilots every tour are normally always guys that have a good combination of SA, gunnery and ACM. They are usually a good fight also.
I'd like to hear what you think is a good indicator of fighter skill INK?
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I'd like to hear what you think is a good indicator of fighter skill INK?
Presumably the dueling bracket.
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Presumably the dueling bracket.
Which tests a relatively limited subset of skills.
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Youre such an optimistic and good willing man. I would like to see the world in the same way.
The OP currently has a decent KPH of 6.2, so it's not a personal problem. Also I just spent an hour doing desperate base defense against a horde with him. :aok :devil
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Which tests a relatively limited subset of skills.
Well yes, but if you discount MA fighter score entirely what other litmus test is left?
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not one bit of the scoring or ranking system is a indicator of skills..
While it can be gamed (such gaming is usually pretty easy to see: "Bob has 500 kills of Frank, and few kills of anyone else, while Frank has no kills at all" sort of thing) I think that if somebody is maintaining a good K/D and good K/H without cheating it is a pretty solid indicator that they are good. If you have a good K/D and K/H it pretty much follows that you have a good accuracy rate too.
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have to disagree the top 20 fighter pilots every tour are normally always guys that have a good combination of SA, gunnery and ACM. They are usually a good fight also.
I'd like to hear what you think is a good indicator of fighter skill INK?
:rofl
ummm gee durr hmm...let me tink bout it....
how about HOW they "fight" :rolleyes:
score is easy to "game" as you well know. ;)
Presumably the dueling bracket.
love how you ASSume..... what you have no clue about. :aok
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and how do you assume the top guys get their kills by running all the time? People do tend to talk alot of lies in AH and use stereotypes.
Top ten thus far:
Bruv119 Original FPH material
TonyJoey One of the best sticks I've had the pleasure to fight and call a friend. FPH
ROCKY Consistent at what he does.
Delirium Legend
DrBone FPH before he got struck off the list for offering to spoon Midway.
Pawz Legend
Sabot Name changer forget his old ID
xPoisonx New tuff guy haven't fought
Stinky Haven't seen or fought
kappa FPH
Going by your outright dismissal of the fighter scoring mechanism I'd wager you would only manage to beat 3 or 4 of those guys in a fair fight? So mythbusted!
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score is easy to "game" as you well know. ;)
Fighter score only to some limit.
Of course fighter rank ain't a true 1-1 reflection of fighter skill. Not even close. But then, nothing is. We would have to define "fighting skills" first, which will run into problems... Asking for the "best pilot in the MA" is like asking for the "best plane" ... no definite answer on that ;)
But to get into the top (let's say, 20), you need a very complete and significantly above average set of skills, ACM being just one (albeit important) of them. Mr. two weeker cant just decide to "game his way" to the top (At least not in LW - EW and MW is a different thing)
A good dueller is first and foremost good at one thing: Dueling, means applying ACM in a verly limited, clearly defined envronment. While many good duellers are also very good MA pilots (because they have additional skills at a high level as well), there a quite a few great duellers that fail in the chaotic and much greater context of the MA. You can be very good at basic 1v1 ACM, yet totally fail at developing battle awareness.
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and how do you assume the top guys get their kills by running all the time? People do tend to talk alot of lies in AH and use stereotypes.
Top ten thus far:
Bruv119 Original FPH material
TonyJoey One of the best sticks I've had the pleasure to fight and call a friend. FPH
ROCKY Consistent at what he does.
Delirium Legend
DrBone FPH before he got struck off the list for offering to spoon Midway.
Pawz Legend
Sabot Name changer forget his old ID
xPoisonx New tuff guy haven't fought
Stinky Haven't seen or fought
kappa FPH
Going by your outright dismissal of the fighter scoring mechanism I'd wager you would only manage to beat 3 or 4 of those guys in a fair fight? So mythbusted!
:rofl
ok middy
go get another shade to hump your own ankle.... :rolleyes:
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lose an argument resort to name calling typical!
I wish Midway was here I miss having warm ankles and the trolollols.
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lose an argument resort to name calling typical!
I wish Midway was here I miss having warm ankles and the trolollols.
:rofl
I didn't lose anything....
you are a straight up liar....you are delusional....I will never have a "conversation" with you...
as you well know.
so piss off rodent.
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love how you ASSume..... what you have no clue about. :aok
You said "not one bit" of the scoring system for the MA is an indicator of skill. I'm not assuming, I'm going directly by *your own words*! When you dismiss the factors that MA score rates one on on, by default nothing is left as an indicator of skill except individual dueling ability.
BTW, I would be interested to know how players with an elite hit% and elite kills per hour can get there with no skill whatsoever. I haven't gotten there with lots of practice.
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As I orbit a base port here this morning for what seems like an eternity waiting for something...anything to shoot down, I contemplate the findings in this thread on how this will not effect my score in a practical way.
Then again there are these data points:
* Upping a plane on the runway then deciding not to take off ending the flight immediately.
Some reasons include: Chose wrong plane, chose wrong base, base being vulched etc.
=> Kills per Sortie
* Shooting at non-targets for fun and\or tactical changes.
This includes shooting at moon, buildings while in fighter mode, other friendlies [across bow], burning off undesired ammo [type] etc.
=> TotalTourBulletsUsed, Hit percentage
* Helping a fellow pilot upon request.
To help unreservedly may require flying in a manner that sacrifices ones ideal score\stats\rank.
=> Potentially All
* Re-arm pad.
=> Kills per "Sortie"
* Choosing to bail or ditch without any damage.
Some reasons include: not wanting to fly all the way back to base, empty fuel, deliveries (UPS, pizza...), spouse ACK etc.
=> ((Discos * 0.5) + Bails + Captures + Deaths + 1)
* Flying high ENY planes, i.e. non-perk planes. ( C202, P-40c etc.)
It tends to take longer to get to a fight and also tends to take more rounds of 7mm and .303 to do damage.
=> TotalTourSortieTime, PlaneDamageScore ...
* Having to stay in tower.
Some reasons include: phone calls, house chores, spouse ACK and forgot was playing as other life events happen.
=> TotalTourSortieTime
* High altitude bomber intercept missions.
=> TotalTourSortieTime
* Setting convergence to a general setting good for bombers and ACM.
Like 475. Not gonna get an instant kill at close range like 300. Still able to be effective against bombers.
Just means you tend to use more ammo for ACM in some cases.
=> PlaneDamageScore,TotalTourBulletsHit,TotalTourBulletsUsed
Conclusion
The conclusion is obvious. Score may be useful for your own learning and growth. Maybe not as any real indicator of a pilots skill. Respectfully, we not not lab rats where all things in the flying "lab" are equal. There are just too many ways to skew stats\score.
EDIT:
* While in flight to a probably hot spot, waiting forever in the morning hours to find any action.
=> TotalTourSortieTime
This is just a very modest list of factors that can effect stats\score!
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Slade, I have 99% of my convergences at 300, and kill bombers effectively, you can knock that one off it's pretty pointless..
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Good replies, discussion points. :) I will, reply when I get home from school. :aok
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Maybe it's just me, but I don't think of anyone who isn't capable of holding his own in a 1v1 as a good MA pilot.
A good dueler who isn't good in the MA just needs better SA. That's far easier to teach than trying to make Mr. Observant into a dueling bracket monster.
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Maybe it's just me, but I don't think of anyone who isn't capable of holding his own in a 1v1 ...
against whom?
...as a good MA pilot.
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My impression of scoring.....
Score is very subjective...people who know the system, work it..this in itself is a skill
I wouldn't say that all top ranked player for each particular section are the best...they just know more and are more patient than me..
Yes there are those who can and do and know how to fight the dogfight till death way but if they are going for a ranking they will not play that game...they will play the score game..
This is one of the great things about this game and the fact that it resets.... there is always the chance to go for the top stats
Whether that is topping the charts and getting your name on the AH front page..or bettering your last months stats there is always the challenge.
For those who are going for top dog...they have a game to play against the others trying for it...I have seen many times players who will stay online for stupid amounts of hours to keep or take that spot in the last couple of days..
to ink (no slight intended)... I think the biggest issue is far from the guys who play for rank...as was pointed out...some of the top "ranked" guys can and do fight....
the biggest issue to me is the ones who blatantly have no care for stats at all ..... with out some kind of grading system there will be no point for many...this includes me...now I don't strive for top dog but I do strive for bettering myself which is where my stats matter to me. However...I won't stop the way I play which is why, for me, keeping a particular set of stats can be difficult.... I bail and ditch all the time just to get to another part of the map faster .. I defend bases under large base take attempts etc etc...but I always strive to better myself(through my stats)
This is where as I said this score system I feel is great.... these days games track from your start date.... so after years of play you have some stupid ranking that you perhaps shouldn't have but you have played for so long you are up there getting all the free mods whilst someone newer with better raw skill is left to fight with a pea shooter.
well would you look at this...blah de blah blah.... I will proof read after I post...hope it makes sense hahahaha
Edit = proof reading hahaha ... probably still more to change
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against whom?
The vast majority of players.
1v1's do happen in the MA. Being proficient enough in that scenario is part of being a good MA pilot.
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Slade, I have 99% of my convergences at 300, and kill bombers effectively, you can knock that one off it's pretty pointless..
Dolby I set most my convergence to 300 too. The data points I posted were mostly impersonal. Some mine. Some I have heard others discuss. Not everyone has your skill at bombers and\or simply prefer to shoot them further out. No biggie.
This is where as I said this score system I feel is great
SPKmes with regard for using it for personal growth I agree!
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The vast majority of players..
By that definition, a very large group (if not majority) of players would be rated as "good"
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My impression of scoring.....
Score is very subjective...people who know the system, work it..this in itself is a skill
I wouldn't say that all top ranked player for each particular section are the best...they just know more and are more patient than me..
Yes there are those who can and do and know how to fight the dogfight till death way but if they are going for a ranking they will not play that game...they will play the score game..
This is one of the great things about this game and the fact that it resets.... there is always the chance to go for the top stats
Whether that is topping the charts and getting your name on the AH front page..or bettering your last months stats there is always the challenge.
For those who are going for top dog...they have a game to play against the others trying for it...I have seen many times players who will stay online for stupid amounts of hours to keep or take that spot in the last couple of days..
to ink (no slight intended)... I think the biggest issue is far from the guys who play for rank...as was pointed out...some of the top "ranked" guys can and do fight....
the biggest issue to me is the ones who blatantly have no care for stats at all ..... with out some kind of grading system there will be no point for many...this includes me...now I don't strive for top dog but I do strive for bettering myself which is where my stats matter to me. However...I won't stop the way I play which is why, for me, keeping a particular set of stats can be difficult.... I bail and ditch all the time just to get to another part of the map faster .. I defend bases under large base take attempts etc etc...but I always strive to better myself(through my stats)
This is where as I said this score system I feel is great.... these days games track from your start date.... so after years of play you have some stupid ranking that you perhaps shouldn't have but you have played for so long you are up there getting all the free mods whilst someone newer with better raw skill is left to fight with a pea shooter.
well would you look at this...blah de blah blah.... I will proof read after I post...hope it makes sense hahahaha
Edit = proof reading hahaha ... probably still more to change
:rofl
I understood it :aok
and no slight taken..
stats are good for us to judge ourselves...for sure...
I just think it is silly to believe because someone is the top ranked player he is a good "fighter".
obviously to get a good "rank" you must play the whole game...and play it well....for me my only concern is the dogfighting part.... so when ever I discuss something it's along those lines...I do not play the whole game...never really have...I am very one dimensional when it comes to Aces High....but yet therein lies the great debate....whats more changing and dynamic fight...taking bases or fighting fighters.... :rofl
the only way to truly be able to judge someones "skill" is to fight him...period. :D
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Thanks for granting my 1st wish! I guess a follow up wish was, that this should be linked to the scores/stats page when you pull up your stats..for easy reference if anything.
Some of the points here is exactly what I am wishing for change..
We can't have a statistical ranking system based on subjective points like "how he fights".
Also, why do people think that if K/H didn't exist people would be more "timid"? In a war it all boils down to how many of the enemy you kill/destroy/damage. The list of the greatest aces didn't list their kills per day or how many bullets they came back home with. They are ranked by kills. That being said, I challenge anyone not in the top 5 in fighter rankings to go 180-0 like TonyJoey has. Is he really gaming the system? Or playing the game to its peak efficiency like its supposed to be played (at least IRL which this game is a 'simulator' of). You don't have that kind of ratio if you don't have superior SA, masterful knowledge of your aircraft and the enemy aircraft you are fighting. You take calculated risks. I think it takes an extraordinary amount of patience and discipline to fly that way.
If this was any other action/sim/shooting game that kinda of ratio would be on YouTube, in this community people are like "meh". Yet I haven't seen anyone come close to it. (Go 180-0 in Call of Duty with no KillStreaks, that takes skill, even if you are in a tower sniping from afar, the same applies here)
Rankings are about being objective, right now so much weight is given to secondary stats like Kills/Hour(sucks if you are flying off hours) or Kills/Sortie(can you use the re-arm pad).
Rankings are about how well a pilot can control his environment. Did you up from a base to a bar dar only to have it disappear when you are halfway there? Sorry, that means your Kills/Hour go down, you are not a good as the guy who didn't have his bar dar disappear. You can't always control when you find a fight (Or find a fight at all when there aren't a lot of players on). Therefore it shouldn't be used as a gauge of how good you are
Also , is it true that you lose TimePerTour for sitting in the tower?! I go AFK when I'm in the tower! Do I really have to quit the game in order to not affect my score?
Kills/Sortie...Re-arm pad..enough said. not a real indicator of skill.
Kills/Death DOES rest on the shoulders of the pilot and IS a real indicator of skill. If it was so easy, EVERYONE would have a high k/d..its not easy. It takes SA, good flying and good shooting to get a high K/D.
Total # of Kills: Again if this was implemented it would counter act the "timidness" factor everyone talks about. A player with a 100-10 ratio is probably better than a player that got lucky with a 10-1 run.
Hit % All things being equal I think this is also Objective but I am not completely convinced...if twin pilots fly the exact same way, the one with better aim will be a better fighter obviously. The only problem I have is that it can be gamed by shooting bombers, also, cannons are at a high disadvantage vs MGs because of rate of fire and damage done, it forces people who want a higher hit % to fly MG planes. I'm 60/40 on this stat leaning towards wishing for its removal. I could deal with it if K/H (the most subjective stat sometimes uncontrollable by the pilot, therefore not a real indicator of skill, imho) was removed.
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In short, if you take out kills/time for fighters you are changing the game dynamics. Right now, someone who takes flying "cautious" to the extreme has about no chance to end up #1, because his kills/time will suck (this is why the famous "protecting your score" by avoiding combat is actually just protecting your k/d, not your score as such.)
If you take out time as a factor, k/d alone will become massively important, making avoidment of any situation where you could possibly shot down very rewarding. Which ain't exactly great for gameplay in my opinion. Right now, someone who's avoiding a lot of combat opportunities to boost his k/d will pay the price.
And finally kills/time is a sign of skill. It's far more difficult to get a lot of kills, with a good k/d AND having a great k/time than just having many kills and a good k/d.
Doesn't Total # of Kills address this though? Everyone has the same amount of time to play the game and be ranked per tour, wouldn't the person who simply comes out with the most kills given the alloted time of the tour be ranked higher? Doesn't the K/H also have the effect of making people go vulch? There are other games out there whose player base didn't turn into high alt monkey because they didn't count kills per hour, I am sure this wouldn't be any different.
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Although a decent score in fighter can be found fighting, I wish score was removed all together.
Too many take their score protecting to the extreme, circling like 20k sharks at even a whiff of a furball, running 25miles+ if they lose their advantage, running to friends if they are beginning to be given a hard time. the list goes on.
As for the removal of kills per time, that would only serve to make things worse. This OP wish is to severely ruin what gameplay there is in AcesHigh. I can't support in away way expect into the nearest trash can.
Again, I think Total Kills would fix the Kills/Time..its a much more objective data point and less dependant on "how good are you at finding a base to vulch to make this number higher".
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Very good post Kruel and even better answers.
However, I have personally found that when I am able to throw caution to the wind and just have fun with my squadees and buddies, it usually yields the best score result. :headscratch:
I do make a conscious effort to score the majority of my "fighter" sorties in the "attack" category, that helps as I like the group effort base capture portion of the game as well as the dogfight action.
That's exactly what its about, having fun. Some people (more than care to admit) do pay attention to rankings and I believe they should be as objective as possible.
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Not everybody has the skill to get a high K/D, but more than that most people don't enjoy playing in a way that maximizes K/D. Avoiding any fight that you don't have a massive advantage in is boring. Some people ignore score and stats altogether, but we're really not talking about them.
Almost all of my memorable fights have me starting at a disadvantage and overcoming it. I recall a few where I started with the advantage, but they are rare, two that I can think of off hand. If I were trying to maximize my K/D I'd never have engaged in most of those fights because my odds of winning were low. K/D also greatly favors things like the La-7, Fw190D-9 and Typhoon. K/H balances that out as it favors things that can get guns on sequential targets faster, like Spits and A6Ms.
While a multiplier for using harder aircraft sounds great, have fun with the arguments that produces. Somethings we all agree are much harder to succeed in, such as the P-40s, particularly the C, but others currently carrying a high ENY are much more controversial, such as the Bf109F-4, Fw190A-5 and Mosquito Mk VI.
EDIT:
Total Kills doesn't work as a skill factor as it is simply a measure of how much time somebody plays or can play. Vulching helps K/H when you get a willing enemy participant, sure, but it isn't common enough to overpower just general good K/H.
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I say don't fix what isn't broken. I mean if Bruv is ranked #1 then that is normal right? ;)
That's what I am trying to fix! Honestly, do you remember when you got 50 stars(250 kills in a row with no deaths, for the non-ex-FAers) in FA? (I shouldn't have passed on you when I hit your engine at 37 stars, but I was trying to join the Damned at that point..didn't want to piss them off :D)
Now that I can probably say I have played this enough to compare the 2, I think its MUCH more difficult to get it here).
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Add ENY/Kill and Assists/Death components to the current fighter score system.
ENY/Kill would be simple as it sounds; what you are using to get your kills. A player that gets 90% of his kills in 5 ENY planes would suffer in this category. This would encourage score potatos to get kills in lesser rides, like a real "top gun"( ;)) could.
Assists/Death is a measurement of how many pilots are required to kill you. If most kills on you were unassisted, then you are probably easy to kill and/or don't take any chances (timid). Now if you typically have 2 or 3 assists on every death, that indicates a more formidable pilot.
Adding these two things would give a better representation of who the "real" #1 is.
ENY is just no, We don't go fight wars with our Old F-4s to prove we are the best. Going into a gun fight with a knife isn't an indicator of skill..it just shows something is up with the modeling (that being said that the #1 pilot SHOULD be killed by the #2 pilot if the #1 pilot is flying a VERY disadvantaged aircraft..that or something is wrong with the modeling).
Assists/Death again is a bit more subjective, you can't control who hits you or not, I mean if I am #2 and I see that all taht separates me from #1 is Assist/Death then I will just run into a furball with the most survivable plane and go guns cold and try to survive as long as I can...intresting idea though.
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Well, exactly that was in the OP, a request to honorate the timidity.
Would be an awesome game to play...
Not remove the pressure just use a different metric which is more under the pilots control..Give the same weight to "Total Kills" and the pressure to engage and get more kills more quickly is there..Just not in a way that penalizes Off Time players, or unlucky sorties when you can't find a decent fight (with multiple targets which you will need if you want to keep up that K/H and K/S!)
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not one bit of the scoring or ranking system is a indicator of skills..
Baseless, incorrect and subjective...no..just no..Actually..prove me wrong and do it, Get 180 k/d , flying the way you fly (and without help from friends on friendly/enemy country) and Ill pay your Sub for 6 months..But you know me..you better have good documentation of who you kill! :D
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Not everybody has the skill to get a high K/D, but more than that most people don't enjoy playing in a way that maximizes K/D. Avoiding any fight that you don't have a massive advantage in is boring. Some people ignore score and stats altogether, but we're really not talking about them.
Almost all of my memorable fights have me starting at a disadvantage and overcoming it. I recall a few where I started with the advantage, but they are rare, two that I can think of off hand. If I were trying to maximize my K/D I'd never have engaged in most of those fights because my odds of winning were low. K/D also greatly favors things like the La-7, Fw190D-9 and Typhoon. K/H balances that out as it favors things that can get guns on sequential targets faster, like Spits and A6Ms.
While a multiplier for using harder aircraft sounds great, have fun with the arguments that produces. Somethings we all agree are much harder to succeed in, such as the P-40s, particularly the C, but others currently carrying a high ENY are much more controversial, such as the Bf109F-4, Fw190A-5 and Mosquito Mk VI.
EDIT:
Total Kills doesn't work as a skill factor as it is simply a measure of how much time somebody plays or can play. Vulching helps K/H when you get a willing enemy participant, sure, but it isn't common enough to overpower just general good K/H.
Good points here, but everyone has the same amount of time to get it done, everyone is on equal footing, that being said you do make a good point that just because I can play more than you that I am better, but thats just part of the picture and mean to even out the score for those who play off peak or get unlucky going into a fight that dries up (not in player control, therefore not indicative of skill as well).
. And did you just say vulching isn't common? Man, I wish 200 saw it that way! :)
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Going into a gun fight with a knife isn't an indicator of skill..it just shows something is up with the modeling (that being said that the #1 pilot SHOULD be killed by the #2 pilot if the #1 pilot is flying a VERY disadvantaged aircraft..that or something is wrong with the modeling).
I think this is incorrect. The better pilot will always win regardless of the plane they fly. Why? Because they are better! It's not the size of the stick you're swinging, it's how you use it that matters. I've seen some really good sticks fly into fights in 30-40 ENY planes and just own everyone (5 ENY planes included). If the #2 pilot should be able to kill the #1 pilot simply because he was in a "better plane" then these great sticks in 30+ ENY planes would not be getting even 1 kill, let alone LANDING 5 or more. Saying they can because the flight modeling is wrong is just an excuse for having your P-51D shot down by a 109E4. :devil
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I think Kruel has been drinking, or dropped head first. This whole thing is "speshul"
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I think this is incorrect. The better pilot will always win regardless of the plane they fly. Why? Because they are better! It's not the size of the stick you're swinging, it's how you use it that matters.
The plane does matter, and actually quite a lot. Else there wouldn't be any need to perk the Tempest or the Me 262, or no one would call a Spit 16 "EZ mode" ;)
The closer the pilot's skill levels to each other are, the more the plane performance levels come into play. Only when there's an extreme pilot skill asymetry it doesn't matter at all what the 'better' pilot is in.
You will generally get very different overall results fighting in a P-40C vs fighting in a Ki-84 under the same circumstances...
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I call Spit 16's "EZ Kills" ;)
I don't know why people don't like them. I LOVE them! They give me so many perks when I shoot them down in my 109F4 or P-47D11! :devil
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The plane does matter, and actually quite a lot. Else there wouldn't be any need to perk the Tempest or the Me 262, or no one would call a Spit 16 "EZ mode" ;)
The closer the pilot's skill levels to each other are, the more the plane performance levels come into play. Only when there's an extreme pilot skill asymetry it doesn't matter at all what the 'better' pilot is in.
You will generally get very different overall results fighting in a P-40C vs fighting in a Ki-84 under the same circumstances...
this is dead on correct.
Baseless, incorrect and subjective...no..just no..Actually..prove me wrong and do it, Get 180 k/d , flying the way you fly (and without help from friends on friendly/enemy country) and Ill pay your Sub for 6 months..But you know me..you better have good documentation of who you kill! :D
TJ does not fly the way I fly...nor did he fly that way to get that K/D :rolleyes:
sorry but after 10 years of actually fighting in Aces High.....I think I know who is a good stick.... who is a great stick..... and who games the game. ;)
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Baseless, incorrect and subjective...no..just no..Actually..prove me wrong and do it, Get 180 k/d , flying the way you fly (and without help from friends on friendly/enemy country) and Ill pay your Sub for 6 months..But you know me..you better have good documentation of who you kill! :D
Win a dogfight against a spitfire in a D9. The spit pilot cannot be a dumb newb. No running, no hoing, no roping, just a deck cold merge old fashioned fight.
Trust me, you will never ever be able to do that.
Until then, while youre talking about that skill = K/D ... well, keep running your spit from my dora - daddy's coming to get ya :rofl
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That's what I am trying to fix! Honestly, do you remember when you got 50 stars(250 kills in a row with no deaths, for the non-ex-FAers) in FA? (I shouldn't have passed on you when I hit your engine at 37 stars, but I was trying to join the Damned at that point..didn't want to piss them off :D)
Now that I can probably say I have played this enough to compare the 2, I think its MUCH more difficult to get it here).
Yes I do! but I would argue it was much harder in FA what with enemy name tags turned on and the fact that you are on a massive Ace streak with a big shoot me here sign strapped to your plane.
Also I did that in 2 days worth of play 16 hours or so. In AH I would say building a big streak is easier because of the anonymity and the more pedestrian style of gameplay. You normally only ever had the choice of 1 or 2 fronts with targets to kill, it was more condensed and faster paced increasing the chance of being killed. In AH you can leave an area once you feel the game is up and not to your liking.
Your wish would promote guys flying more timid and that is why most here disagree with giving more weight to K/D over the other categories.
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Yes I do! but I would argue it was much harder in FA what with enemy name tags turned on and the fact that you are on a massive Ace streak with a big shoot me here sign strapped to your plane.
Also I did that in 2 days worth of play 16 hours or so. In AH I would say building a big streak is easier because of the anonymity and the more pedestrian style of gameplay. You normally only ever had the choice of 1 or 2 fronts with targets to kill, it was more condensed and faster paced increasing the chance of being killed. In AH you can leave an area once you feel the game is up and not to your liking.
Your wish would promote guys flying more timid and that is why most here disagree with giving more weight to K/D over the other categories.
FA had a big "shoot me" sign attached to your icon? Can we PLEASE have this for AH2!?? :x
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this is dead on correct.
TJ does not fly the way I fly...nor did he fly that way to get that K/D :rolleyes:
sorry but after 10 years of actually fighting in Aces High.....I think I know who is a good stick.... who is a great stick..... and who games the game. ;)
Yea if Joey flew like you his K/D would be much worse and any dueling fights would be over much quicker. Just Saying. :D
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FA had a big "shoot me" sign attached to your icon? Can we PLEASE have this for AH2!?? :x
Yes it was called Aces, and was listed as * for 5 kills , ** 10 *** 15 and so on. Anything over 5 went into number form so seeing Damned _Bruv_ 50* flying through the air would be one hell of a motivation to kill it. Unfortunately latrobe it meant not being killed or you would lose them. ;)
Quite often the Damned were flying around fields with large clusters of stars, most people would just scatter or leave because they were either traumatised from their last engagement or in awe at such teamwork, dedication and skill. Ajax, Vulcan, Smokin, playmate, rilak, soulslinger, klaatu, saint, the list goes on.
If only we all played in the same universe and could have had a muppet vs damned squad match, it would have been a very intense fight and damned would have cleared up with their B team.
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I don't care if I lose them. I just want to give the enemy some kind of motivation to kill me rather than run away! :devil
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well one or two did have a profound effect. Guys would stay in a fight just to get them removed from their opponent.
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The plane does matter, and actually quite a lot. Else there wouldn't be any need to perk the Tempest or the Me 262, or no one would call a Spit 16 "EZ mode" ;)
The closer the pilot's skill levels to each other are, the more the plane performance levels come into play. Only when there's an extreme pilot skill asymetry it doesn't matter at all what the 'better' pilot is in.
You will generally get very different overall results fighting in a P-40C vs fighting in a Ki-84 under the same circumstances...
This. Latrobe, I think you misunderstood, I mean all things being equal (skill) plane performance becomes paramount.
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I think Kruel has been drinking, or dropped head first. This whole thing is "speshul"
If you don't have anything constructive to add, please don't. If you don't agree, make your points and we can have a logical discussion.
Otherwise, see rule #4.
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This. Latrobe, I think you misunderstood, I mean all things being equal (skill) plane performance becomes paramount.
If all things were equal then the fight would end in a draw or last until someone ran out of fuel. I think Lusche and I are seeing the same thing though, just from different perspectives. The plane is important. Knowing the strengths and weaknesses of both planes in a fight will give you a big edge, but planes are just planes. They need a pilot in the cockpit in order to fly and maneuver. Lusche, and others, see this from the plane matchup perspective. I see it from the pilot matchup perspective. The better pilot will be able to understand the strengths and weaknesses of both planes, exploit these strengths and weaknesses, and out fly their opponent. Unless horribly outmatched, your plane will have at least 1 advantage over your opponents. The better pilot will be able to exploit this one advantage to win.
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the only way to truly be able to judge someones "skill" is to fight him...period. :D
So, basically the dueling bracket.
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I don't care if I lose them. I just want to give the enemy some kind of motivation to kill me rather than run away! :devil
Yes in Fighter Ace, besides being able to see who you are fighting(player names enabled) vs having to go to film or asking on 200 "HEY YOU 47 AT 10, 2, 4 FIGHT ME OUT OR I'LL CHECK MY FILM AND FIND OUT WHO YOU ARE ANYWAY. Sorry lol. What was I saying? Ah yes aces in fighter ace,
Like Bruv explained, 5 consecutive kills = 1 *, so if you had a 25 kill streak you would see your name as "Latrobe *****" more importantly enemies could see your name as that as well. After ***** it would turn into a number, so 30 killstreak was "Latrobe 6*"
With names enabled, and a full map radar with dots and alt pointers, it wasn't hard to find who you were looking for, If you were holding a lot of kills, people were out to hunt you down.
Think of it instead of landing kills and getting your name in lights for 2 seconds, it's flying around with your name in lights constantly, definitely an epeen booster, and more than enough motive for people to come kill you. Typical chat conversation went sort of like:
Player 1: holy crap Player 2 nice streak/rack
Player 2: thanks :)
Player 3: How many?
Player 1: 12! (60 kills on a row)
Player 4: I'm coming for them.
Player 5: me too!
Player 6: I'm climbing out, those stars are gonna be gone soon!
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I don't care if I lose them. I just want to give the enemy some kind of motivation to kill me rather than run away! :devil
You've already found it, it is called a P-47.
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If all things were equal then the fight would end in a draw or last until someone ran out of fuel. I think Lusche and I are seeing the same thing though, just from different perspectives. The plane is important. Knowing the strengths and weaknesses of both planes in a fight will give you a big edge, but planes are just planes. They need a pilot in the cockpit in order to fly and maneuver. Lusche, and others, see this from the plane matchup perspective. I see it from the pilot matchup perspective. The better pilot will be able to understand the strengths and weaknesses of both planes, exploit these strengths and weaknesses, and out fly their opponent. Unless horribly outmatched, your plane will have at least 1 advantage over your opponents. The better pilot will be able to exploit this one advantage to win.
No you aren't saying the same thing, I said all things being equal except for planes of course. Think about fighting your evil twin, who flies a plane with much better performance. Who would win?
I said #1 pilot vs #2 pilot to illustrate that they are both very skilled.
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If I could clone myself and put Latrobe2 in a Spit16 while Latrobe1 flies a P-47D25, both Latrobe's know how both planes handle, what each others strengths are, and what the weaknesses are. I know it would end in a draw because both Latrobe's would be using the advantages they have over the others weaknesses. The only way one Latrobe would beat the other is if the plane match up was completely one sided like an i-16 vs A6M5. The i-16 holds no advantages over an A6M5 so Latrobe1 flying the A6M5 would win solely because Latrobe2 is in the i-16 and has no advantages to exploit. Put Latrobe2 in an F6F and now he has some advantages over the A6M5 and the fight would end in a draw again.
If plane matchup meant everything then all you'd see in the MA is Spit16's and P-51D's (or more than we already see :) ). Why fly a 190A5 or Ki-61? Those planes aren't the best of the best and you'd just die. But we do see 190A5's and Ki-61's in the MA, and we see them killing "better" planes as well. That's because the pilot is making the difference. Does flying a "better" plane make the fight easier for you? Yes, but it does not mean you automatically win. You still have to out fly your opponent and shoot them down.
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You've already found it, it is called a P-47.
Thats not working that way. Seen all kinds of planes trying to run from a lone D9, even a zeek too (kamurogi). That was a FACEPALM.
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Thats not working that way. Seen all kinds of planes trying to run from a lone D9, even a zeek too (kamurogi). That was a FACEPALM.
As very few planes (and certainly not the Zeke) are physically capable of out-running a D9, it seems like this should rarely be a problem for you.
And I suspect most of the people complaining about runners aren't in D9s. :devil
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Yes it was called Aces, and was listed as * for 5 kills , ** 10 *** 15 and so on. Anything over 5 went into number form so seeing Damned _Bruv_ 50* flying through the air would be one hell of a motivation to kill it. Unfortunately latrobe it meant not being killed or you would lose them. ;)
Quite often the Damned were flying around fields with large clusters of stars, most people would just scatter or leave because they were either traumatised from their last engagement or in awe at such teamwork, dedication and skill. Ajax, Vulcan, Smokin, playmate, rilak, soulslinger, klaatu, saint, the list goes on.
If only we all played in the same universe and could have had a muppet vs damned squad match, it would have been a very intense fight and damned would have cleared up with their B team.
You left out Shadow ;p from that list, I know you don't like him but you know he was/is good, I was New but certainly had great success towards the end as well , all great guys and even better pilots, I miss Ajax! And I agree, there two very big differences in philosophy between these 2 squads, the thing that made The Damned legendary was this teamwork, specially against superior numbers. I think the KOTS record was like 162-6 or something ridiculous like that. None came close, glory days indeed :). With any luck we will be bringing that here :)
I guess a lot of these folks don't realize we are used to the hate, we actually thrive on it.
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If plane matchup meant everything then all you'd see...
But noboy claims it means everything.
Because it would be as nonsense as "nothing".
;)
But we do see 190A5's and Ki-61's in the MA, and we see them killing "better" planes as well.
Because it's the combination of plane & player - both are defining the the total combat performance package. lethality = pilot * plane (simplified spoken)
It's a very different thing engaging an enemy blob all on your own ina P-40C than doing the same in a Tempest. Killing in a Tempest is easier because of the plane.
If the plane meant nothing, no one would ever complain about those SPixteens, lala's and so on. Heck, we even could set all perk planes free...
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But noboy claims it means everything.
Because it would be as nonsense as "nothing".
;)
Because it's the combination of plane & player - both are defining the the total combat performance package. lethality = pilot * plane (simplified spoken)
It's a very different thing engaging an enemy blob all on your own ina P-40C than doing the same in a Tempest. Killing in a Tempest is easier because of the plane.
If the plane meant nothing, no one would ever complain about those SPixteens, lala's and so on. Heck, we even could set all perk planes free...
Agreed, but this is more about scoring and how it could be made more objective and less "gamey". Being that some people don't agree with my wish, what are some of your ideas?
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Agreed, but this is more about scoring and how it could be made more objective and less "gamey". Being that some people don't agree with my wish, what are some of your ideas?
I already explained my position on your wish in my initial post. :)
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Sorry, I meant to address it to anyone who might not agree with the scoring system.
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Sorry, I meant to address it to anyone who might not agree with the scoring system.
How many is that do you think, 5-6?
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How many is that do you think, 5-6?
Not sure which is why I am asking :) its all meant for conversation if anything,
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The scoring is what it is. If you want to rank high, you must play the scoreboard game. Many here know how to play it, just ask and they will tell you what you need to do to be ranked in the top spot.
Your asking for a change because you can't be bothered to do the things needed to be at the top. You feel your style of play should be favored over other styles and so should rank higher more easily.
Sorry it doesn't work that way. Oh and 120 to 0 isn't even close. I think it was Lazer that went 390 to 0 once.
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The scoring is what it is. If you want to rank high, you must play the scoreboard game. Many here know how to play it, just ask and they will tell you what you need to do to be ranked in the top spot.
Your asking for a change because you can't be bothered to do the things needed to be at the top. You feel your style of play should be favored over other styles and so should rank higher more easily.
Sorry it doesn't work that way. Oh and 120 to 0 isn't even close. I think it was Lazer that went 390 to 0 once.
Sigh, what is my style of play? Why make these assumptions? Why say I can't be bothered? (Ranked 9th in attack by gaming the system, which is why I am asking for change, I flew 3(?) Sorties), quit making assumptions of what my style is or what my intentions are, I have made those clear and don't have a reason to hide anything ...
3 sorties and per the ranking system I am a top 10 attack pilot(I'm not, not even close) but it goes to show that something is wrong with the ranking system, which is why I am asking for change...I would like for it to be more objective, which would yield results closer to fact. (My rank would probably be much worse)
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The scoring is what it is. If you want to rank high, you must play the scoreboard game. Many here know how to play it, just ask and they will tell you what you need to do to be ranked in the top spot.
Your asking for a change because you can't be bothered to do the things needed to be at the top. You feel your style of play should be favored over other styles and so should rank higher more easily.
Sorry it doesn't work that way. Oh and 120 to 0 isn't even close. I think it was Lazer that went 390 to 0 once.
Forget the score game or gaming it, it's a waste of timeJust get out there and kill everything you see, works for me.
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #2
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I have a film of me in a Tempest, running from a D3A :old:
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See Rule #2
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Sigh, what is my style of play? Why make these assumptions? Why say I can't be bothered? (Ranked 9th in attack by gaming the system, which is why I am asking for change, I flew 3(?) Sorties), quit making assumptions of what my style is or what my intentions are, I have made those clear and don't have a reason to hide anything ...
3 sorties and per the ranking system I am a top 10 attack pilot(I'm not, not even close) but it goes to show that something is wrong with the ranking system, which is why I am asking for change...I would like for it to be more objective, which would yield results closer to fact. (My rank would probably be much worse)
I don't know what your style of play is nor do I really care all that much. By asking for a change in the system I'm guessing your not being shown in the "light" you think you should be. To many players find it easy and are willing to game the score system so you show more poorly than you think you should, or you don't want to be bothered by having to "play" that game so that you show where you THINK you should be showing. Close enough?
The system is set up to show the best over all players. The problem is that like anything else in a game people look for a way around it. In the old days we use to fly off a base and meet the enemy half way to there base a duke it out at what ever alt half way got you to the deck. Then some people figure it was better to grab some alt and come in high and pick those guys twisting and turning on the deck working for a kill because it took less skill and wasn't likely to get them shot down much...... I'm sure you know the kind :D
The point is the system has to be complicated and convoluted to make it as EQUALLY fair to everyone who plays I fly 20 hours a week and if I worked at it I could keep a score comparable to a player who does 700 hours a week. If things were simple I wouldn't be able to keep up with the number of kills a 700 hour player gets, or a player playing in the Euro time wouldn't have a chance to get his K/H any where near someone from US prime time.
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4
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I don't know what your style of play is nor do I really care all that much. By asking for a change in the system I'm guessing your not being shown in the "light" you think you should be. To many players find it easy and are willing to game the score system so you show more poorly than you think you should, or you don't want to be bothered by having to "play" that game so that you show where you THINK you should be showing. Close enough?
The system is set up to show the best over all players. The problem is that like anything else in a game people look for a way around it. In the old days we use to fly off a base and meet the enemy half way to there base a duke it out at what ever alt half way got you to the deck. Then some people figure it was better to grab some alt and come in high and pick those guys twisting and turning on the deck working for a kill because it took less skill and wasn't likely to get them shot down much...... I'm sure you know the kind :D
The point is the system has to be complicated and convoluted to make it as EQUALLY fair to everyone who plays I fly 20 hours a week and if I worked at it I could keep a score comparable to a player who does 700 hours a week. If things were simple I wouldn't be able to keep up with the number of kills a 700 hour player gets, or a player playing in the Euro time wouldn't have a chance to get his K/H any where near someone from US prime time.
Again completely incorrect, no offense but do you even read? I said I'm being shown as 9th place in attack(top 10). And What I am saying is that I SHOULDN'T be in the top 10, because the scoring system took 3 sorties, and is easily tampered with. The changes I am proposing or wishing for or whatever, MAKE IT HARDER to game the system.
So no, not even close. Please try and read it again. I DO want to be challenged to earn rank, I just proved its stupid easy to game it, which is why I am asking for change.
You say people will find a way but there is no way around K/D, you get them or you don't. There is no way around Total kills, you get them or you don't. Unless you cheat with extra accounts (which should be bannable)
Don't mention offtime players KH hurts them the most, because they can't find a fight.
As far as time played, it's not the 700 hour players fault that you can't play as much, If he is dedicating more time to the game and beating you in all the stats, that's the objective way to display his ranking. Play more or just realize that your limited play time keeps your from competing for the rank you want and live with it.
So let me repeat it again so you can stop guessing. I am looking for more objectivity in regards to score. Looking for it to stop being so easy to be gamed (as evident by me flying just 3 sorties and being rank 9 in attack..I SHOULD BE RANKED WORSE.THE SCORING SYSTEM IS BROKEN. That's the "light" I'm looking for. Lol
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So let me repeat it again so you can stop guessing. I am looking for more objectivity in regards to score. Looking for it to stop being so easy to be gamed (as evident by me flying just 3 sorties and being rank 9 in attack..I SHOULD BE RANKED WORSE.THE SCORING SYSTEM IS BROKEN. That's the "light" I'm looking for. Lol
We are only 10 days into the tour. IF you stay at your current level of 11 sorties in attack (not 3) you will lose ranks every day.
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Don't mention offtime players KH hurts them the most, because they can't find a fight.
This is absolutely true. But I think kills per hour is also the single hardest metric to game and best indicator of all skill, all other things being equal. I know they aren't for the off-time players, but I don't think that can be helped.
Kills/sortie on the other hand, that should DEFINITELY be eliminated. It is nothing other than a measure of how regularly a player uses the rearm pad. Whatever it is supposed to measure is measured better by kills per hour.
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reducing it to K/D and sheer number of kill wouldn't help the off players anyway... you still have the problem to get the number of kills in the first place.
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There is no accusation to it. I've SEEN both of them doing it in the MA (and been killed by it). And there is no shame in it. It is a good way to fly aircraft with excellent climb and energy retention.
There isnt much difference between him and skyyr, personality-wise - in my eyes.
Yes, both of them spend more time killing people than complaining bout others not playing "right", a thing to which I give a most hearty :aok
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There is no accusation to it. I've SEEN both of them doing it in the MA (and been killed by it). And there is no shame in it. It is a good way to fly aircraft with excellent climb and energy retention.
Yes, both of them spend more time killing people than complaining bout others not playing "right", a thing to which I give a most hearty :aok
Uhm, really wanna run into you in the MA and show what is the right and knightly way to fly a brick :aok
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Uhm, really wanna run into you in the MA and show what is the right and knightly way to fly a brick :aok
I think this roughly translates to "I wanna kick your bellybutton for disagreeing with me. Not like literally with hands or something, God forbid. In a video game that I've spent thousands of hours getting really good at, where no one REALLY dies" :D
Alas, there is no courage or cowardice, honor or dishonor, badassery or pansy-ness to be claimed, mutually shared community delusions aside. No one ever gets so much as a bloody nose flying AH.
Below is a recent example of "stupid" flying in a brick. It happened to work out 'cause the other guy made serious mistakes. No "courage" was involved, just moving a game controller around while sitting in a chair watching a screen.
http://www.mediafire.com/watch/72fl5srr78r9ur4/BoNeZ_P51_F6F_Fight_2.mp4 (http://www.mediafire.com/watch/72fl5srr78r9ur4/BoNeZ_P51_F6F_Fight_2.mp4)
Original AHF: http://www.mediafire.com/download/25h3ina2eo9pyhz/20142slo_0041.ahf (http://www.mediafire.com/download/25h3ina2eo9pyhz/20142slo_0041.ahf)
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4
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Again completely incorrect, no offense but do you even read? I said I'm being shown as 9th place in attack(top 10). And What I am saying is that I SHOULDN'T be in the top 10, because the scoring system took 3 sorties, and is easily tampered with. The changes I am proposing or wishing for or whatever, MAKE IT HARDER to game the system.
So no, not even close. Please try and read it again. I DO want to be challenged to earn rank, I just proved its stupid easy to game it, which is why I am asking for change.
You say people will find a way but there is no way around K/D, you get them or you don't. There is no way around Total kills, you get them or you don't. Unless you cheat with extra accounts (which should be bannable)
Don't mention offtime players KH hurts them the most, because they can't find a fight.
As far as time played, it's not the 700 hour players fault that you can't play as much, If he is dedicating more time to the game and beating you in all the stats, that's the objective way to display his ranking. Play more or just realize that your limited play time keeps your from competing for the rank you want and live with it.
So let me repeat it again so you can stop guessing. I am looking for more objectivity in regards to score. Looking for it to stop being so easy to be gamed (as evident by me flying just 3 sorties and being rank 9 in attack..I SHOULD BE RANKED WORSE.THE SCORING SYSTEM IS BROKEN. That's the "light" I'm looking for. Lol
So because I have a family and work for a living i cant be ranked as high as some kid playing 700 hours in his mom's basement? I'm no superstar, but I'm better than average. Why shouldn't I have the same chance to rank high? I pay the same subscription you do.
Making the scoring flat and simple doesn't take these other things into consideration. HTC has built this system the way they have and know the math behind it. If you want to be on the top you have to work for, much like anything else in life.
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So because I have a family and work for a living i cant be ranked as high as some kid playing 700 hours in his mom's basement? I'm no superstar, but I'm better than average. Why shouldn't I have the same chance to rank high? I pay the same subscription you do.
Making the scoring flat and simple doesn't take these other things into consideration. HTC has built this system the way they have and know the math behind it. If you want to be on the top you have to work for, much like anything else in life.
Life ain't fair, I too work for a living, have 2 babies, and go to school full time. If the kid living in his mom's basement has a better KD, total kills, better hit, then yes it shouldn't be close. Sorry. , HTC isn't perfect,
I DO aspire to one day be on top, but that's my point. I didn't work for #9 attack, I'm clearly not deserving of that rank yet the scoring system puts me there. For now, I guess we'll see where I end up at the end of the tour..then we might revisit this
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You were effective, which is why you are #9. The scoring system doesn't need to change.
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I think you should fight Bruv 1v1 before you throw a tantrum. He is quite good.
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See Rule #4
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Everyone keeps talking about hypothetical 1v5s, but nothing has been produced. I have actually *seen* and been the victim of Bruv fighting 1v3 against myself in an La7, and two other guys in Spits. We were together, we knew that lone SpitVIII was probably Bruv and we wanted to shoot him down. I've been doing this a lot of years and am no fool. He got me fair and square after slaughtering the other two guys fair and square. It's more than aim, he had to balance perfectly between the two pitfalls of staying so fast that he can't hit anything, and losing his energy advantage and being subject to attack from the other two planes while killing one. He did it perfectly. Dude's stats say 13 kills per hour which you absolutely cannot get by making 500mph guns passes and extending a sector. Dude can fight effectively, even against bad odds. To say anything else is inaccuracy.
I see a lot of guys saying being able to stack up the pelts in the MA ain't nothing, because they could purportedly kill the pelt stacker in a duel. I've been through that stage as well. Dueling and the MA success are two related but separate skills. I got a lot happier with the game and less frustrated when I quit expecting the MA to be be "fair".
Also, I notice lots of people showing scorn for flying for score, yet seemingly being very concerned with some alleged bad guys' high score. What's it to you? I don't even bother to read who is on the leaderboards every month. You wanna see true non-concern with score, check fighter ranks for BoNeZ right quick :-)
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I could be mistaken, but I don't think you've ever dueled him 1v1 CoE same plane. MA is a sandbox environment and people will fly how they fly. Fight him in the DA before you pass judgment. As for the video, excellent flying, but the point still stands that the opponents were horrible. I could fly around and own the 5 planes in offline all day but it doesn't really show much.
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:headscratch: I think you're both off base, and have no problem with sticking up for a friend.
Thats the way we like it.
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I DO aspire to one day be on top, but that's my point. I didn't work for #9 attack, I'm clearly not deserving of that rank yet the scoring system puts me there. For now, I guess we'll see where I end up at the end of the tour..then we might revisit this
To cut it short a bit, I ran the numbers. with your current attack score you would have ended up #15 in tour 172.
Which, by the way, nobody else but you would ever had taken notice of (just to put things a bit into perspective).
I have to add that due to the addition of damage related sub categories, ATTACK rank works a little different than FIGHTER rank. Each individual category has less impact because of this, and thus going for a very few, highly efficient sorties can get you relatively far. Much more so than in the FIGHTER mode. Only 5 categories here, so each one is more important, meaning you have to do much more than just three sorties to get anywhere near the top (LW arena only), or you won't have the necessary number of kill points.
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Take my word for it? Dude, I just said he shot me down in a 1 against 3, and I was one of the 3. That is not the kind of news I would like to report were it not true. I hardly know the guy really, I just feel the need to speak truth to the sour grapes and utter cliquish horsecrap flowing so freely atm.
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Take my word for it? Dude, I just said he shot me down in a 1 against 3, and I was one of the 3. That is not the kind of news I would like to report were it not true. I hardly know the guy really, I just feel the need to speak truth to the sour grapes and utter cliquish horsecrap flowing so freely atm.
:uhoh
I don't understand..... :headscratch:
I did say I took your word for it...in other words.... I believe what you say.
and again...I listed the reasons I speak to him the way I do....
why I have NO respect for him....its not his game play. ;)
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Take my word for it? Dude, I just said he shot me down in a 1 against 3, and I was one of the 3. That is not the kind of news I would like to report were it not true. I hardly know the guy really, I just feel the need to speak truth to the sour grapes and utter cliquish horsecrap flowing so freely atm.
There is no honor on the BBS. It's just pixels and letters dude.
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Personal attacks, of any kind, are not welcome on our board.
This forum is for players to pose 'wishes' to the developers for things they would like to see. Discussion of those 'wishes' is fine, but deviations to the point of name calling are not going to be welcome.
See those "Rule" violation edits? Those are warnings. We will no longer tolerate people who cannot maintain a civil tongue on our board. It serves no purpose but to distract from constructive discussion.
ink, Debrody, take note. You both know better.
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See rule #2
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See Rule #2
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There is no honor on the BBS. It's just pixels and letters dude.
The same can be said of in-game.
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I dont think there's really a point to changing the scoring system. if you dont care for score then whatever it is wont matter to you. if you do care about score again whatever it is changed to, you will find a way to score high just like you found how how to score high in the current one.
semp
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There is no honor on the BBS. It's just pixels and letters dude.
Actually lying on a matter would clearly be dishonorable, no matter the medium. Breaking a "rule" of a game that no one has agreed to and which exists only in a complainer's imagination on the other head does not stain honor in the slightest. :aok
(Seriously-NO ONE has agreed. I took a poll, asking if we *seriously* wanted certain standards of fair play in the MA. Not a soul voted in the affirmative. http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,362889.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,362889.0.html) )
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I dont think there's really a point to changing the scoring system. if you dont care for score then whatever it is wont matter to you. if you do care about score again whatever it is changed to, you will find a way to score high just like you found how how to score high in the current one.
semp
That's sort of a benefit of the score system. If you are a score person, there ya go! If you aren't, well there aren't really any perks of the score/rank system anyways, so nothing to worry about.
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The same can be said of in-game.
You're so right. We know this because it would be impossible to brag about picking cons if honor existed in our pixelated world.
Actually lying on a matter would clearly be dishonorable, no matter the medium. Breaking a "rule" of a game that no one has agreed to and which exists only in a complainer's imagination on the other head does not stain honor in the slightest. :aok
(Seriously-NO ONE has agreed. I took a poll, asking if we *seriously* wanted certain standards of fair play in the MA. Not a soul voted in the affirmative. http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,362889.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,362889.0.html) )
This board is not real. A lie told here lives and dies here. Nobody loses a wife or a job because they lied here.
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This board is not real. A lie told here lives and dies here. Nobody loses a wife or a job because they lied here.
They possibly could. And it matters not, the lie remains a lie. Rather like, if one agrees to a deck merge and guns cold merge and then breaks it, that is dishonorable. The lie is the root of all dishonor.
Or if the arena message HTC has up for us as we log into the main arena said "Remember guys, no picking, HOing, running", and we tacitly agreed to it by playing in the sandbox Hitech has built and then broke the rules, THAT would effectively be another lie.
Now claiming dishonor/honor for breaking/obeying rules that really only amount to someone without authority to set rules in HTC's sandbox, that perhaps borders on the lie, and wanders way into controlling narcissist territory.
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People who really think this video game relates in any way to honor or heart need to step away and experience their real lives for a bit.
^^
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See Rules #2, #4, #7
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You're so right. We know this because it would be impossible to brag about picking cons if honor existed in our pixelated world.
While I agree that there is no honor in-game, your statement is logically flawed. It's akin to saying murder would be impossible if justice and goodwill existed.
The existence of a social construct does not prevent actions that defy it. Rather, the fact that it can be defied proves that the concept of "honor" is nothing more than an attempt by one or more individuals to force others to adhere to their common code.
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Every Special Event or the like I've ever flown in, I have adhered to all ROE specified by the mods and arena message, as have other players as far as I've seen. The problem with would-be definers of MA "honor" is that they don't have the authority to make codes, the people playing have not agreed to whatever these codes, and use of the tactics they would codify against is ubiquitous, usually even by the codifiers themselves. Everyone picks for example, which is not surprising, because that which AHers define as "picking" is the most effective multi-on-multi air combat tactic.
While I agree that there is no honor in-game, your statement is logically flawed. It's akin to saying murder would be impossible if justice and goodwill existed.
The existence of a social construct does not prevent actions that defy it. Rather, the fact that it can be defied proves that the concept of "honor" is nothing more than an attempt by one or more individuals to force others to adhere to their common code.
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I agree with the Kruel's assessment of scoring.
I also think both sides are saying the same thing, they just don't realize it because of differences in familiarity and approach.
What the current scoring system lacks is context. The current ranks are determined solely by numeric averages and nothing more.
Let's look at an example: Someone can come in from the top of a massive amount of inbound enemies, kill 10 planes in under 10 minutes, and then RTB. Or, even better, let's say 10 bombers. Adding in an additional 10 minutes of travel each way for ingress and egress, that brings the total sortie time to 30 minutes. Now let's look at the stats.
Total flight time: 30 minutes
Total Kills: 10
Total Deaths: 0
Total k/d: 10.0
Total Sorties: 1
Kills Hit Percentage: (let's figure 17.5%, for killing bombers - not unreasonable by any means)
Kills/Time: 20/hour.
Kills/sortie: 10
Kill Points: ?
So using the completely realistic scenario above, we end up with #1-worthy stats in all categories, except kill points. This person would undoubtedly finish top 20, probably top 10, with a very good chance of being top 5.
All from one sortie.
The above stats are impressive, when taken out of context. Within context, they're less than impressive - someone had a really good, single run killing bombers. The problem, then, is that the current system measures statistics, not performance.
I see many people here arguing that statistics in and of themselves do not give an indicator of skill. I completely agree, which is why I think we should change the system - hear me out.
Let's view another pilot with these stats:
Total flight time: 5 hours
Total Kills: 50
Total Deaths: 10
Total k/d: 5.0
Total Sorties: 10
Kills Hit Percentage: 9%
Kills/Time: 10/hour.
Kills/sortie: 5
This guy will probably finish top 50, maybe top 25. However, these stats, individually, are only decent at best, so his overall ranking will depend on the law of averages - nothing more.
But the real question here, is how does this guy, which we will refer to as pilot B, compare against the pilot above, pilot A? The answer: We don't know, and can't tell, from the stats.
The current stats are worthless for anything except numbers right now. True, you can infer a certain amount of skill for those that consistently rank high, but outside of inferring skill based on long-term consistency, they're worthless in and of themselves.
Now, let's go back to pilot A. He had a really good sortie. A really, really good sortie that he intends to repeat. Let's pretend that he rolls again... goes on a 30-minute sortie... and is shot down by an average-skilled player. Let's assume he shot several times at his opponent throughout the fight, lowering his hit percentage to 9%. He now ranks lower than pilot B, as all stats are identical, with the exception of kill points, which pilot B should have a lead in.
However, we're just pretending. Pilot A didn't roll again, didn't get shot down, and now he's parked his name at the top of the leaderboard as it's actually a shade account that he rarely flies. One of the top 25 spots, and most likely top 10 spots, is now taken due to an extremely lucky run. Now, we know that he's only marginally skilled, but the stat system doesn't weight performance, so he will remain ranked over pilot B who clearly has a much more solid gameplay history and skill set.
The problem that I see with the system isn't the rankings or the averages, it's the lack of a weighting system that gives some type of context. Now, we have to be careful here, because we don't want subjective context, we want objective context. We don't want to try to calculate if it was a 5v1 fight vs a 1v5 fight, or if player A got kills from HO's or not - it's ridiculous to try to adjust for those factors.
What there is improvement for is quantity of quality. For example, someone with a 10:1 with 50 kills should be given some sort of weight against someone with a 10:1 with 40 kills. However, due to score adjusting for imbalanced sides, it's realistically possible for the 40-kill player to gain more kill points, especially based on the aircraft that they fly. In fact, for example, someone furballing in early/mid-war Spitfires can use this to game the system.
People claim that the Kill Points stat balances out the above, but that's not the case. Kill points acts independently, as its own stat, so instead of directly affecting the weighting of kills/deaths, it indirectly affects it through overall ranking. It doesn't directly modify the ranking of K/D or Kills per Sortie, so it doesn't really work as a weight of quality.
The same thing could be said of accuracy. There should be some type of weighting for the guy that fires 150,000 rounds at 9.9% accuracy compared to the guy who fired 1000 rounds at 10% accuracy. The current system negates long-term, consistent performance and instead rewards short term luck.
As it stands, the scoring system is all about gaming numbers, not improving performance. By weighting kills, accuracy, etc., it downplays the advantage of being able to run one or two or five sorties and then retiring for the month, as those sorties would have relatively little weight. An adjusted scoring system would reward long-term, consistent, good performance over someone who had one "lucky" great run.
What the changes would not do is change the standing of good or even great pilots. Pilots who are consistently good could fly, no longer fearing a freak-chance death from a .50-cal pilot wound at 1200 yards. Deaths and misses are not primary concerns, because they are weighted out in the long run. It would encourage people to engage and fight more, instead of running the second it looks like the tables might turn and the fight could end up with a single death that would wreck that player's monthly stats.
Poor pilots would remain being ranked where they are currently at. There are no suggested changes that would cause them to rank higher.
Fighter Ace had similar mechanisms, where stats could be pulled based on volume of kills, deaths, sorties, etc. What resulted from this is that no one, literally no one, cared about the players' stats with under X amount of kills. The community that resulted from it was one that was focused on long-term performance statistics. No one cared if you had a great week or even month, they cared how you performed over the long-haul. "Who are the best pilots with more than 10,000 kills?" "Who has the highest kills per hour, with more than 1,000 overall kills?" - those were the types of scoring inquiries that resulted from the changes, and they were all positive.
I believe these changes would bring about positive change, as players would be focused on long-term stats and on finding fights, as volume and consistency matter more than single, lucky, low-volume runs.
If you made it this far, thanks for reading.
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While I agree that there is no honor in-game, your statement is logically flawed. It's akin to saying murder would be impossible if justice and goodwill existed.
The existence of a social construct does not prevent actions that defy it. Rather, the fact that it can be defied proves that the concept of "honor" is nothing more than an attempt by one or more individuals to force others to adhere to their common code.
And without any social constructs, chaos (or dweeby cartoon flying) reigns.
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And without any social constructs, chaos (or dweeby cartoon flying) reigns.
Chaos still reigns in the face of social constructs. I present to you, a second time, the example that murder still happens regardless of the fact that there are numerous social constructs against it.
I would respectfully suggest that you take a few courses in cultural studies and argumentative reasoning - it might help explain the above better to you.
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What the changes would not do is change the standing of good or even great pilots. Pilots who are consistently good could fly, no longer fearing a freak-chance death from a .50-cal pilot wound at 1200 yards. Deaths and misses are not primary concerns, because they are weighted out in the long run. It would encourage people to engage and fight more, instead of running the second it looks like the tables might turn and the fight could end up with a single death that would wreck that player's monthly stats.
This is nothing how the scoring system in the LW works. No single death "wrecks" a players montlhy stats and, more importantly rank. Things are weigthed out in LW arena by kill points.
Look at the top 10 ranked fighter pilots of last tour
sorties hours death total
TonyJoey 178 85 37
Snailman 150 42 20
angus 61 15 3
rocky 147 57 53
paladin3 117 48 20
okie 50 15 19
cmex 241 61 112
cargnico 239 62 124
lynx 36 11 13
grizz 68 16 44
See how many deaths each of them had. No one seems to have his stats ruined by just a single death.
However, due to score adjusting for imbalanced sides, it's realistically possible for the 40-kill player to gain more kill points, especially based on the aircraft that they fly. In fact, for example, someone furballing in early/mid-war Spitfires can use this to game the system.
Score doesn't work this way either.
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Chaos still reigns in the face of social constructs. I present to you, a second time, the example that murder still happens regardless of the fact that there are numerous social constructs against it.
I would respectfully suggest that you take a few courses in cultural studies and argumentative reasoning - it might help explain the above better to you.
Oh I see your point now. Social constructs, accepted norms, and mores have never influenced anyone, ever.
You'd do better to just not give a damn I think.
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And without any social constructs, chaos (or dweeby cartoon flying) reigns.
Actually there are elements of natural order that appear, not due to imposed order, but due to the "laws" of such things as physics and psychology. Patterns emerge, and rational beings who wish to be effective observe and use these patterns as best they can towards their own ends. Arguably a mostly natural order tends to be superior to an order bogged down with excessive artificial impositions. In any case, you will remember I actually proposed an imposed order consisting of the sort of rules many players act like should be followed, but every player who bothered to speak on it was against it. So what's a guy to do? *shrug* http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,362889.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,362889.0.html)
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Oh I see your point now. Social constructs, accepted norms, and mores have never influenced anyone, ever.
I don't recall saying that. In fact, I just re-read my posts and confirmed that I did not say anywhere that social constructs "never influenced anyone, ever". What I said was is that the existence of social norms is simply that - an existence. The existence of them does not negate or otherwise remove contrary behavior. Ergo, they are nothing more than one group of people trying to enforce their ideals on others. Citation and link (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,363240.msg4833419.html#msg4833419).
Again, I would suggest the aforementioned courses, specifically argumentative reasoning - it would help you understand why your statement is (quite literally) logically flawed and might help you better vocalize your reasonings against it (though they would still remain in contradiction, as pointed out).
You'd do better to just not give a damn I think.
Pointing out logically-flawed arguments is not an indicator of giving a damn. Rather, it's reinforcing why I don't give a damn: because they're logically flawed.
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This is nothing how the scoring system in the LW works. No single death "wrecks" a players montlhy stats and, more importantly rank. Things are weigthed out in LW arena by kill points.
I'm not implying that a single death literally wrecks every score; but rather, it encourages timid flying by those who wish to game the system and creates a fear of death, especially by those who are trying to "game the game" through low-sortie counts.
Moving to a weighted system removes the practicality of doing so, negating the effectiveness of low-sortie-count stat padders.
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negating the effectiveness of low-sortie-count stat padders.
That's me! :banana: :airplane: :joystick: :neener:
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Let's look at an example: Someone can come in from the top of a massive amount of inbound enemies, kill 10 planes in under 10 minutes, and then RTB. Or, even better, let's say 10 bombers. Adding in an additional 10 minutes of travel each way for ingress and egress, that brings the total sortie time to 30 minutes. Now let's look at the stats.
Do you really think an average player could achieve this?
How many people do you think that play can achieve 10 kills in 10 mins?
HiTech
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This is nothing how the scoring system in the LW works. No single death "wrecks" a players montlhy stats and, more importantly rank. Things are weigthed out in LW arena by kill points.
Look at the top 10 ranked fighter pilots of last tour
sorties hours death total
TonyJoey 178 85 37
Snailman 150 42 20
angus 61 15 3
rocky 147 57 53
paladin3 117 48 20
okie 50 15 19
cmex 241 61 112
cargnico 239 62 124
lynx 36 11 13
grizz 68 16 44
See how many deaths each of them had. No one seems to have his stats ruined by just a single death.
Score doesn't work this way either.
An even better example is my fighter score so far this tour. I'm intentionally dying every single sortie this tour and so far my fighter rank is in the top 50!. :D :lol
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I don't recall saying that. In fact, I just re-read my posts and confirmed that I did not say anywhere that social constructs "never influenced anyone, ever". What I said was is that the existence of social norms is simply that - an existence. The existence of them does not negate or otherwise remove contrary behavior. Ergo, they are nothing more than one group of people trying to enforce their ideals on others. Citation and link (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,363240.msg4833419.html#msg4833419).
You said "Chaos reigns in the face of social constructs". So for chaos to reign, isn't it fair to say that social constructs aren't influential at all in the world of Skyyr?
Again, I would suggest the aforementioned courses, specifically argumentative reasoning - it would help you understand why your statement is (quite literally) logically flawed and might help you better vocalize your reasonings against it (though they would still remain in contradiction, as pointed out).
Pointing out logically-flawed arguments is not an indicator of giving a damn. Rather, it's reinforcing why I don't give a damn: because they're logically flawed.
Splendid. I'm always looking for course recommendations from random dudes on the internet.
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Triton,skyyr bnz Take you social construct discussion else where.
HiTEch
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I'm not implying that a single death literally wrecks every score; but rather, it encourages timid flying by those who wish to game the system and creates a fear of death, especially by those who are trying to "game the game" through low-sortie counts.
As a matter of fact, only few players do deliberately try to use the "low sortie count" method to boost the score. And often their returns are not exactly impressive as well. I have posted stats and analyses on this at several points in the past.
You absolutely can do use this method to good effect, but the leveling power of kill points means you really have to do some very impressive sorties - which no Average Joe can pull off.
At the current score system, any "timid flying" (which is a very unclear term anyway) is mostly for psychological reasons than any actual gain on score and rank.
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Do you really think an average player could achieve this?
How many people do you think that play can achieve 10 kills in 10 mins?
HiTech
I just did it this tour in attack rank, let's not even say they were kills, I vulched a field and Overkill kept rolling bombers. I probably got 15 kills on 2 sorties.
Which is exactly our point, is the ranking system not supposed to be a way to measure player skill?
I am definitely not as good as the attack ranks say, I was just at the right place at the right time. Half way through the tour I'm still top 10, rank is about skill not being lucky, there is no perfect system, but this one is easily fooled.
I made this post both as a wish for change and/or ideas for improvement, I have already proven its broken by my ranking.
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No one has placed Damage done in their argument :old:
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Do you really think an average player could achieve this?
How many people do you think that play can achieve 10 kills in 10 mins?
HiTech
An average player on an average run? No, it'd be very difficult.
An average player on a stat-padding run, where they specifically wait for the right moment? Fairly easy. You see, many players will specifically only fly attack sorties, waiting until they see a good opportunity to get a bunch of fighter kills. They then switch to fighter mode (or log onto an alternate account) and pad there score, then either park the name and log off, or switch back to attack.
Your question underscores my point. It is very hard to maintain that number of kills over time, but the current system doesn't take into account a weighted context, so someone who got lucky once then has the opportunity to remain parked in their current position until the end of the tour.
I believe weighting addresses this issue, and I've seen it work first hand. Weighting the stats forces the user to maintain that level of performance or risk dropping in rank. It reinforces skill development over lucky and advantageous sorties, as it minimizes their overall effectiveness.
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Kill points already achieves this goal.
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You see, many players will specifically only fly attack sorties, waiting until they see a good opportunity to get a bunch of fighter kills. They then switch to fighter mode (or log onto an alternate account) and pad there score, then either park the name and log off, or switch back to attack.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?topic=341952.45
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From the linked 2012 discussion we gain a smidgen more insight to the scoring as related to "The Game" it scores for. At least from the creator's perspective.
The two insights from Hitech:
Insight One
The score system perfectly reflects a persons skill at playing the game.
But it does not do a very good job at reflecting a persons ability a cooking.
HiTech
Insight Two
Do you play "The game" or do you just fly in an arena?
HiTech
----------------------------------
So what is Hitech's "The Game" opposed to the "The Game" posters in this discussion want the stat collection functions changed to reflect?
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Kills/sortie on the other hand, that should DEFINITELY be eliminated. It is nothing other than a measure of how regularly a player uses the rearm pad. Whatever it is supposed to measure is measured better by kills per hour.
BNZ's quote here may be the most useful thing I've seen in a long while on this topic. That would be a good change. :aok
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BNZ's quote here may be the most useful thing I've seen in a long while on this topic. That would be a good change. :aok
Always being a curious mind, I took a quick look at how this would have changed the top 10 fighter ranks of last tour.
First, the top 10 as is:
TonyJoey
Snailman
angus
rocky
paladin3
okie
cmex
cargnico
lynx
grizz
And now the top 10 with K/S eliminated:
TonyJoey
Snailman
angus
ROCKY
Paladin3
OKIE
Cargnico
2cmex
Lynx
Grizz
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Always being a curious mind, I took a quick look at how this would have changed the top 10 fighter ranks of last tour.
First, the top 10 as is:
TonyJoey
Snailman
angus
rocky
paladin3
okie
cmex
cargnico
lynx
grizz
And now the top 10 with K/S eliminated:
TonyJoey
Snailman
angus
ROCKY
Paladin3
OKIE
Cargnico
2cmex
Lynx
Grizz
It's not a matter of eliminating K/S, K/D, or any other stat. Anyone who ranks top 10 is going to do so because all of their stats are relatively high (and are unweighted); therefore, removing the same stat from everyone is almost always going to result in the same set of results.
The suggestion's intention is not to change the list, but rather weight the stats so that, purely for example, someone with a 9.99 k/d ratio with 1000 kills scores is weighted higher than someone with a 10.0 k/d and 20 kills.
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Kill points already does that.
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It's not a matter of eliminating K/S, K/D, or any other stat. Anyone who ranks top 10 is going to do so because all of their stats are relatively high (and are unweighted); therefore, removing the same stat from everyone is almost always going to result in the same set of results.
I have a feeling that this is just an assumption on your side not based on actual data?
That being said, it's not like you say at all. Eliminating K/S had the top 10 almost unchanged. But eliminating Kill Points for example would have changed the top 10 of last tour quite a lot, even bringing someone into the top5 with only 3(!) fighter sorties.
The top 10 would suddenly largely made up by players with very low sortie numbers. (And yes, i ran the numbers)
So we can see that kill points already do have a large impact and are balancing the whole fighter rank thing in LW.
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I have a feeling that this is just an assumption on your side not based on actual data?
That being said, it's not like you say at all. Eliminating K/S had the top 10 almost unchanged. But eliminating Kill Points for example would have changed the top 10 of last tour quite a lot, even bringing someone into the top5 with only 3(!) fighter sorties.
The top 10 would suddenly largely made up by players with very low sortie numbers. (And yes, i ran the numbers)
So we can see that kill points already do have a large impact and are balancing the whole fighter rank thing in LW.
You're asking for data, but that's the thing - I've already proved it's possible through the prior examples. The fact that it's possible at all is the problem. That said, it does happen - look at ranks 11-50. You'll find several pilots with only 4-8 hours of flight time and only tens of kills.
The underlying problem is that it's possible to game the system because it pulls stats without context. Changing it to a weighted system removes the ability to game it, as it requires consistent gameplay to maintain those ranks.
The only change being advocated here is a reasonable weighting preference given to those with larger sample sizes. That's not a random, arbitrary wish - that's fundamental to statistics in general.
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Kill points already does that.
It indirectly causes it, but does not directly modify the weight of K/S or K/D. But even then, kill points itself is modified by other factors that have nothing to do with flight performance. So yes, it modifies it, but not in a contextually-meaningful way.
Also, factor in that it is completely pointless to continue improving score, literally, one point past the #2 position. Any effort past that point is wasted. Weighting the scores, on the other hand, actually makes it beneficial to continually improve score, as weight goes up as quantity increases.
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You're asking for data, but that's the thing - I've already proved it's possible through the prior examples.
So did I, I already have said that this is possible - but also I said it's less frequent and more importantly, much less effective as people (and you) tend to believe. (had you visited the link I provided?)
So a few players made it into top 50 with only a few sorties.
Well, take away Kill Points, and the top 50 will be full of them. Even more so, suddenly there are a lot of players in the top 10 with only very few sorties. This absolutely contradicts your theory that kill points are not weighting things at all. They are, and quite so.
When Kill Points had no such effect, nothing much would change when I eliminate it from the rank calculation. But the opposite is happening.
And I'm not just takign a look at a few selected players - I run the rank calculations for all 'active pilots' (those with at least one kill or death in anything) just like the HTC rank calculator does.
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Play the game and enjoy the fight. You don't get a trophy for number 1 anyway, it's a thankless easily forgotten task.
Score means nothing, a high ranked player can still be pounded into the dirt in the DA.
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(http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o460/caldera_08/trophies.jpg~original) (http://s343.photobucket.com/user/caldera_08/media/trophies.jpg.html)
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(http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o460/caldera_08/trophies.jpg~original) (http://s343.photobucket.com/user/caldera_08/media/trophies.jpg.html)
rofl
By the way i find it highly abusive that there is a group of players who only play for the K/D (ergo they never fight in an air combat game, avoiding any opponent who has the chance to shoot back), they come here, make a suggestion that score should only be determined by K/D, but nooohoooo they arent doing it for any selfish reason (blatant lie).
Maybe its only my blood, but i cant stand liars.
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By the way i find it highly abusive ....
Oh the irony...
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Oh the irony...
Exactly. And?
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Exactly. And?
Nothing, except it is hilarious when a hypocrite like you calls other people hypocrite.
In case you didn't quite grasp the above (wouldn't exactly surprise me): With your behavior, it is just a tad hypocritical of you to call anyone abusive.
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Nothing, except it is hilarious when a hypocrite like you calls other people hypocrite.
In case you didn't quite grasp the above (wouldn't exactly surprise me): With your behavior, it is just a tad hypocritical of you to call anyone abusive.
Well thanks for clearly explaining your thoughts, brewster boy, really appreciate it :aok
Couldnt really get it though... would you explain this a bit furthermore?
How do you wanna punch my cartoon nose? Arm wrestling? Drinking contest? Poker? DA?? :lol
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Kills/sortie on the other hand, that should DEFINITELY be eliminated. It is nothing other than a measure of how regularly a player uses the rearm pad. Whatever it is supposed to measure is measured better by kills per hour.
The usefulness of this change goes well beyond score. I mean duh!
It could change a sub-culture of gaming the re-arm pad into players that actually engage more completely in ACM. Crazy idea I know! :bhead
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Damn Hungarians. We had Goulash for dinner the other night and it was a bit disappointing! :ahand
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See Rule #4
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Damn Hungarians. We had Goulash for dinner the other night and it was a bit disappointing! :ahand
cuz what they sell you as "goulash" has nothing common with what we call "gulyás" :neener:
Maker comes out swingin', calling me out for being abusive... and hypocritical... oh the irony again :rofl :aok
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Maker comes out swingin', calling me out for being abusive... and hypocritical... oh the irony again :rofl :aok
Did I cry like a 14 year old girl in pms (being you) that I felt someone was abusive?
Except for the remark of getting rid of you (which would be good for this board just like I said, not just my opinion, btw) I really wasn't abusive. I just described you as you are.
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Wmaker doesn't have "sisu".
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Did I cry like a 14 year old girl in pms (being you) that I felt someone was abusive?
Except for the remark of getting rid of you (which would be good for this board just like I said, not just my opinion, btw) I really wasn't abusive. I just described you as you are.
Need to prove yourself any more?
(http://www.cherrybombed.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/1297635013.jpg)
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Need to prove yourself any more?
What exactly have I been trying to prove about myself so far?
All I've been doing is highlighting the fact that you're a hypocrite.
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What exactly have I been trying to prove about myself so far?
All I've been doing is highlighting the fact that you're a hypocrite.
okie dokie.
Listen, i dont give a damn about your opinion. Still, talking about me being abusive yet calling me worthless, also questioning my abilities of understanding a simple sentence in the same context, well, thanks, that really made sense. After that, telling me that im the one being the hypocrite is just plain nonsense - or hypocricy.
Respect, walk. Have a nice day, beer for your happyness.
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By the way i find it highly abusive that there is a group of players who [...] [avoid] any opponent who has the chance to shoot back
Clearly, not true: http://youtu.be/Tv4OGkJX-OU
Maybe its only my blood, but i cant stand liars.
Seeing as your statement has now been debunked, does that qualify as self-hate?
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Be proud, you won a head on :lol :lol :lol
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Be proud, you won a head on :lol :lol :lol
I know. Did you see that he went for it first? And that he shot first? And completely missed too?!
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By the way, what on earth makes you think that youre in "that ominose group of players"? :lol
Also, who cares if he shot head on too? Trying to prove that youre not a runaway kind of man with that head on? Even funnyer that youre that proud of it, had to replay 10 times, in slow motion :rofl
Edit: otherwise looked like that was a pretty bad rope where the ki caught you - had no other option than to come straight into him, and see what happens.
So powerfool, would you teach me, master? :old:
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Also, who cares if he shot head on too? Trying to prove that youre not a runaway kind of man with that head on? Even funnyer that youre that proud of it, had to replay 10 times, in slow motion ROFL!
Edit: otherwise looked like that was a pretty bad rope where the ki caught you - had no other option than to come straight into him, and see what happens.
Ah, the red herring fallacy.
You see, it doesn't matter if it was head-on, sideways, or upside down. All that matters is that I posted proof of shooting someone who shot back, which you claimed was a blatant lie (and therefore, by extension, impossible). Trying to post a paragraph about how I killed someone is just an attempt to draw the attention away from the fact you got caught making a false statement. Nice try, but anyone with a high school education or higher can see through that failed attempt.
By the way, what on earth makes you think that youre in "that ominose group of players"? :lol
Good question - because you said so yourself (see the bolded, underlined part):
By the way i find it highly abusive that there is a group of players who only play for the K/D (ergo they never fight in an air combat game, avoiding any opponent who has the chance to shoot back), they come here, make a suggestion that score should only be determined by K/D
I see you're not only in the habit of contradicting yourself, but also in forgetting what you posted less than 24 hours earlier. Of course, we never suggested that score should be based on K/D (weighting is not K/D whatsoever - see here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weighted_arithmetic_mean) or check your local university for more in-depth knowledge), but let's not argue about that minor detail when there's so much more beneath the surface of your last two replies. lol.
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Still cannot see where i have mentioned that youre in that ominose group - otherwise youre right. There is a phrase where i do live though: if its not your suit, dont put it on. Quite funny how it fits this situation.
Technical University of Budapest, Energetics, heat engines class.
What do yuo think, what is behind the surface?
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4
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I will reserve judgement on this video until my boy Kruel does a full analysis of the raw AH film and transcribes every interaction between INK and Skyjr in the last 90 days.
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I will reserve judgement on this video until my boy Kruel does a full analysis of the raw AH film and transcribes every interaction between INK and Skyjr in the last 90 days.
:lol
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Skyr... i belive your every single word, good sir... still... that poor lemming Dolby got you that badly, if you were really fighting as you claim, you couldnt maintain the K/D of 0.5... something is just not right...
:ahand
"Dont even try to fool me, cuz' i can see right through you..." seen you flying, not once, not twice. All i have seen was really disappointing, to express myself mildly. Now youre trying to negate my statement with a video of hoing off an almost failed rope, well... After this, you calling me a blatant liar is beyond nonsense - its rather in the funny category.
just sayin' :)
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I will reserve judgement on this video until my boy Kruel does a full analysis of the raw AH film and transcribes every interaction between INK and Skyjr in the last 90 days.
Not needed, as Skyyr posted this video to display how INK complains about HOing yet, he was the one that initiated it, clearly shown in the video, it doesn't take much skill to HO and the purpose of the video wasn't to show that. I believe the purpose was to show hypocrisy, as the one with a "fighting spirit" he could have easily avoided the HO and rolled around on Skyyr blind folded. :rolleyes:
Your feeble attempts to troll the same point over and over only demonstrates your lack of maturity and open-mindedness, too bad your skill at trolling doesn't directly translate to your skill behind the stick, all you can really do is ride the coat tails of (fallacious) claims by Dolby, which I am sure he is going to hang on to for a very long time, it will keep him warm during the cold lonely nights...he will be sure to pull it out a year from now only to demonstrate his accomplishment! :old: "Remember when I did this guys! Man, those were the days!".
Yet for all your attempts at trolling, I still haven't seen you step up to the plate and challenge anyone to DA (much less Skyyr). I mean wouldn't you want a video of your own to show off! At least everyone will know that it wasn't friendly/training, and we will know that it will wind up on YouTube, right? :rolleyes:
Not sure why people keep derailing the topic at hand..we are talking about Scoring here...I am not saying my ideas are the best ideas..I only mean to bring up meaningful and constructive conversation in regards to how easily the scoring system can be "gamed". Its sad that its actually almost accepted "Those who will game the game will game it." Scoring is about objectivity, as a new player, the scoring system is a bit confusing and convoluted, if HTC wants attract (and keep) players, I think the Scoring system is one of those things that need to be clear, simple and objective.
So, does anyone have any better ideas? I am interested in reading if there is anyway to make the game better.
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Not needed, as Skyyr posted this video to display how INK complains about HOing yet, he was the one that initiated it, clearly shown in the video, it doesn't take much skill to HO and the purpose of the video wasn't to show that. I believe the purpose was to show hypocrisy, as the one with a "fighting spirit" he could have easily avoided the HO and rolled around on Skyyr blind folded. :rolleyes:
Your feeble attempts to troll the same point over and over only demonstrates your lack of maturity and open-mindedness, too bad your skill at trolling doesn't directly translate to your skill behind the stick, all you can really do is ride the coat tails of (fallacious) claims by Dolby, which I am sure he is going to hang on to for a very long time, it will keep him warm during the cold lonely nights...he will be sure to pull it out a year from now only to demonstrate his accomplishment! :old: "Remember when I did this guys! Man, those were the days!".
Yet for all your attempts at trolling, I still haven't seen you step up to the plate and challenge anyone to DA (much less Skyyr). I mean wouldn't you want a video of your own to show off! At least everyone will know that it wasn't friendly/training, and we will know that it will wind up on YouTube, right? :rolleyes:
Not sure why people keep derailing the topic at hand..we are talking about Scoring here...I am not saying my ideas are the best ideas..I only mean to bring up meaningful and constructive conversation in regards to how easily the scoring system can be "gamed". Its sad that its actually almost accepted "Those who will game the game will game it." Scoring is about objectivity, as a new player, the scoring system is a bit confusing and convoluted, if HTC wants attract (and keep) players, I think the Scoring system is one of those things that need to be clear, simple and objective.
So, does anyone have any better ideas? I am interested in reading if there is anyway to make the game better.
talk about hypocrisy using a small part of a much larger situation to try to prove something...
how about the whole MA fighting you guys outnumberd (a couple days before I ran into you in the DA)...and only you guys HOing and me avoiding....and it taking way longer then it should have to kill me....and even more...... I had killing shots on everyone of you...and only my poor aim allowed you guys to kill me.
we both know and Skyr knows the only reason I HOed was because I got sick of it from Him and your squad....THAT is the truth...spin it how ever you want.
I even said AFTER the HO...something along the Lines...."wow that was fun huh?"
and it was actually 2 times I HOed him that day both times I lost....
like I said before his HOing skills are TOP NOTCH :aok
....except that one time YOU alone decided well instead of just hoing him I will go for position....
remember that?
huh???
how many was I fighting...3...4
did I HO any then?
we have actually had a few fights in the MA...how many of them have I HOed in????
ever see me run?
I have seen skyrr run many times.
you should really think about it.....
use that brain.....
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Not needed, as Skyyr posted this video to display how INK complains about HOing yet, he was the one that initiated it, clearly shown in the video, it doesn't take much skill to HO and the purpose of the video wasn't to show that. I believe the purpose was to show hypocrisy, as the one with a "fighting spirit" he could have easily avoided the HO and rolled around on Skyyr blind folded. :rolleyes:
The context in which this took place is most certainly needed,
If I pull you in the DA under the pretense of "ho training" or friendly discourse and say "try this" then shoot you down then post a video later to prove how much better I am, context is everything. Original AH films please.
I want to learn from this training experience.
Your feeble attempts to troll the same point over and over only demonstrates your lack of maturity and open-mindedness, too bad your skill at trolling doesn't directly translate to your skill behind the stick, all you can really do is ride the coat tails of (fallacious) claims by Dolby, which I am sure he is going to hang on to for a very long time, it will keep him warm during the cold lonely nights...he will be sure to pull it out a year from now only to demonstrate his accomplishment! :old: "Remember when I did this guys! Man, those were the days!".
Yet for all your attempts at trolling, I still haven't seen you step up to the plate and challenge anyone to DA (much less Skyyr). I mean wouldn't you want a video of your own to show off! At least everyone will know that it wasn't friendly/training, and we will know that it will wind up on YouTube, right? :rolleyes:
How can I be skilled at trolling, troll you and make you respond, but the attempt be feeble. Cognitive dissonance I say! :old:
Also, are you challenging me to challenge someone to the DA? Because that would be a weird thing to do.
Not sure why people keep derailing the topic at hand..we are talking about Scoring here...I am not saying my ideas are the best ideas..I only mean to bring up meaningful and constructive conversation in regards to how easily the scoring system can be "gamed". Its sad that its actually almost accepted "Those who will game the game will game it." Scoring is about objectivity, as a new player, the scoring system is a bit confusing and convoluted, if HTC wants attract (and keep) players, I think the Scoring system is one of those things that need to be clear, simple and objective.
Most people use their encounters in the game as a measure of their skill and improvement. Using the scoring system as the most valid measure is just a recipe for getting all mad and stuff at the numbers for lying to you when someone hands you your arse in the DA.
So, does anyone have any better ideas? I am interested in reading if there is anyway to make the game better.
Yes. Stop giving a damn about your score and focus on flying skillfully.
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and for the record
anyone who knows me....10 years I have been flying in AH....
ever see me complain about dying?
or start watermelon on 200?
I most often <S> the guy and say nice shot or nice move...
until someone starts talking smack to me I live and let live....
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I'll bring up that film every time Skyyr posts a stupid youtube film to emphasise a point he is trying to make.
I know INK enough in the sky to know that to get him to HO first you must first HO him.
Preferably I'd like to duel him (skyyr) again when the new graphics and terrain comes out, that give him time to think of the next set of excuses he is wanting his squadmates to make for him, as well as making it prettier viewing.
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Ladies and Gentlemen, please behold Kruel, the proud member of the "Skyyrcare Specialists" :lol
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Now youre trying to negate my statement with a video of hoing off an almost failed rope, well... After this, you calling me a blatant liar is beyond nonsense - its rather in the funny category.
You didn't make the statement until AFTER I posted the video, so it's literally impossible for me to have defended myself by posting a video against a statement you made of the video itself. That's the third time you've contradicted yourself with your own posts in the last 24 hours.
Back on topic, you claimed that we have never engaged anyone who could shoot back. I posted evidence that not only is that false, but one of your own members met on equal grounds and attempted to HO. It was a virtually straight and level approach and they fired first (with incredibly poor marksmanship, as usual) and still managed to lose. This isn't about them, though - it's about you. You made a false claim and the video proved you wrong. End of story - you have no credibility.
Talk all you want - the fact of the matter is that one of your members initiated a HO, lost, and in the same sortie proved you to be lying.
By the way i find it highly abusive that there is a group of players who [avoid] any opponent who has the chance to shoot back
Maybe its only my blood, but i cant stand liars
Should I relink to the video of INK shooting first and losing? Or is it ok to universally acknowledge you got caught in a lie?
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I'm waiting for the raw AH film to be delivered to me.
Skyjer, the ball is in your court.
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Great example of a purse fight right here!
Back after commercials....
:lol
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On topic: As long as I'm #1 the scoring system is fine. :rock
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Interesting reply, INK. You do realize that there were no insinuations made in that video, correct? It was honestly the only FRAPS video I had of a HO, and it just happened to be of you. It was fortuitously coincidental, as it made my point about the fact that we do engage targets that shoot back (and also ones shoot first head-on), but it was not a jab at you whatsoever. A jab at the hypocrisy of the situation, yes, but not at you in particular. That said, you obviously have feelings on the subject, so I'll do my best to reply.
what you should post up there also......Syyrr is the "fights" .....of your ganging and HO first pass then run like a girl "extend" away ....
First, let's make sure we're clear on the definition of "HO." A head-on (HO) shot is just that - head-on - it implies zero-deflection (or very close to near-zero). Therefore, unless you are going straight and setting up for a shot, and unless I'm also going straight, setting up for a shot, it's not a HO; hence the phrase, "It takes two to HO." A true HO is the easiest shot in the game to avoid, to quote Latrobe. You might want to check with him if you're having problems with them.
With that, very, very few of my engagements with you have involved HO's (unless you're stating that you yourself are setting up for a head-on pass as well, which would make you a hypocrite). Correctly-named, they are front-quarter guns solutions. Believe it or not, I try to avoid actual HO's a majority of the time if it's obvious the other guy is going to try to maneuver for a shot. However, you are very predictable and you pull the same maneuvers over and over and over, so it becomes very easy to shoot at you at the merge. Why? Your gunnery is lacking (by your own admission), you make it obvious that you're not going to defend against a shot, and you maintain the same set of tactics. You are a PRIME merge-shot target, as I have absolutely nothing to risk by taking the shot against you.
Also, none of the fights (at least from this day) were "gangings," that's from another day (and even then, it wasn't, but more on that below).
and then...... lead up to this film where I get sick of it and just HO first....but unlike you my HOing skills are subpar......
You get "sick" of it? It's a game. It's actually rather abnormal for anyone, let alone a grown man, to have an adverse emotional reaction to what is ultimately a result of their own flight style in a freaking video game. But hey, whatever.
or you should post the one where I am fighting you and a couple of your squadies from ...what was it 15K to the deck and you guys took how Long? HO after HO after HO.......
For some reason, you decided to switch from discussing the current set of fights to another day, as these fights happened two days after the timeframe that the sortie in question was from. Just as long as we're clear on that...
So, let me get this straight - on this particular sortie, you come in, with tons and tons of smash (much more than we had), try to engage two 190's and a Spit off the deck (shortly after we had rolled and were climbing out), you die (managing to get hit by a slower, lower TA 152 in the process, I might add), and I'm supposed to give a damn? You were in a more maneuverable, conditionally faster aircraft (your E advantage allowed you the option of pursuing and running down anyone you might choose)... and you still blew it. You were nothing more than an annoyance and extra perk points. Seriously - you didn't even come close to damaging anyone. You died without as much as making anyone even consider the possibility of an RTB. We weren't mad or upset, and I assumed that was the case with you (obviously, I was wrong based on your reply and the comment about you getting "sick" of it above). What was your point again?
or how about the films where I catch you alone and you immediately run to ACK and friends.....
Ok, so you're still talking about the second set of fights two days later. You caught me alone twice. The first time, I shot you and you ran back to your ack and a P-47 came in (Lilmak). I killed him and RTB'd. The second time, you came in (again) with the aforementioned tons of extra E and I simply extended in a slight climb. You could have dove down to me (you had more than enough altitude and airspeed), but you knew I would go vertical on you the second you came down. You chose to nose up and climb, hoping I'd turn back into you. Quit making excuses because I didn't play the game you wanted.
you have zero understanding of ACM and the only skill ingame you have is HO and run. and with out doubt you are GREAT in those roles....
So I have zero understanding of ACM? Interesting - let's play your game and assume that I know nothing about ACM, then. How is, then, that this "ACM" you speak of, this magical skill that allows you to engage people with enlightened knowledge and increased fun... is getting you killed? I mean, you have died almost every single time we have engaged each other, whether 1v1 or 5v5 or even 1v5. Isn't this "ACM" supposed to allow you to beat me? Doesn't this "ACM" have counters for such cheap maneuvers, as you have claimed, are so easy a kid could do them?
Or could it be, perhaps, that there's an entire additional subset of ACM that you have absolutely no understanding of. To you, it looks like a cheap shot; to you, it looks like running; to you, it just looks like you died 11 times (your number of deaths over the two days in question) and it was all luck on my part. To me, well, it's 11 kills I get to land... but whatever. What do I know?
You could switch planes to one that has a similar performance envelope to the ones I fly - but no, you like yours (and that's fine), which subsequently are much slower than mine. You could adopt energy fighting tactics, but no, those are "dishonorable" to you (and you subsequently end up getting roped on the deck). You could take front-quarter shots (well, you could try, anyway) when presented with the possibility, but no, those are also dishonorable, according to you.
I see a lot of complaining because I won't fly the way you want me to... and it makes you "sick." Hmmm...
Like I said originally, I had no intention of implying anything with the video, other than simply to prove to Dejody that his claim was false. We have different philosophies about air combat and I respect the right to disagree - we'll never agree and it is what it is. I have my flight style and wingmen, you have yours.
Back on topic...
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We need the raw footage for context. Given your lack of credibility this "film" must be accompanied by raw footage or it will be judged invalid.
Upload it to my boy Kruel's Google Drive. He'll give me the password so I can evaluate.
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Skyyr, youre awesome. Been a long time since i could laugh this much on one working so hard to twist others words and negate the facts and logical consequences by making himself looks like a fool :lol
Keep up the good work :aok
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Skyyr, youre awesome. Been a long time since i could laugh this much on one working so hard to twist others words and negate the facts and logical consequences by making himself looks like a fool :lol
Keep up the good work :aok
I honestly tried to read what he said.....
oh well
have a nice day Skyr I will not break HTCs rules again this week.
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for skyr with love
http://www.mediafire.com/download/h6h84c4cg27aahi/forthefilm6.ahf
or this one from the noob days
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUD1HMhISj4
Theese are what i consider as fights
:D
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I just had a Facetime chat with my boy Kruel. Still no raw AH films uploaded to his Google Drive. :frown:
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Gents this is not the appropriate place for this discussion. Take it private.
HiTech
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See rule #4