Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Cremator on August 09, 2014, 03:58:29 PM
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Today I up my trusty Brewster. I tangled with a few then in comes a LA. Get on his six and he leaves, running away. I roll out, he returns, then he runs. Happened 4 or 5 times. Just before blowing a gasket I begin to ponder. I see a lot of talk on the forum about "run stangs" "spit dweeb" blah blah. Is it really wrong to capitalize on each planes strength? I was turning and burning the Brewster. Was I in the wrong to use its strength?
Random post, no doubt. Just a thought...
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If the priority is surviving and killing the other guy, you fly your plane to its strengths and enter favorable situations. Nothing wrong with that and everyone does it at some level. I think the most fun and satisfaction comes when you win a fight you shouldn't have or enter a no-win situation and somehow fly away alive. Reward is tied to effort, challenge and risk. Vulch, HO or pick 6 guys and go land, and you get a little satisfaction. Fight 3 guys at once from below, one augers, you wound one, and kill the last...its way less kills compared to the vulchfest but way more than twice the satisfaction.
Not on my high horse. I pick, vulch and run but do try to balance it with the other stuff.
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I was in a KI-43 the other night and a C2 was doing the same thing. When he did turn though I was able to use the KI to my advantage and turn inside of the C2 to land a few hits.
Nothing wrong with using the planes strengths, you just need to wait for the right opportunity.
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I hear runstang and it doesn't bother me. The PonyD was built for speed and there are times to seperate from a fight, gain some alt and 'E' then return. Or, the kind where it is 1 v 1 then a few of your buddies shows up, so he egresses the fight, smart on his part. Or, he is dragging you out of a horde for a 1 v 1, smart.
The kind of runstang that turns into ack hugging. Or, runs away from a 1 v 1 and into a horde.
A good 1 v 1 is awesome
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You pay to play; fly what you wish to fly. Few La _ sticks can outturn a Brewster. He disengaged and reset the attack...smart pilot.
Fly what you wish and use that ride to its maximum envelope/strength. End of story.
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Today I up my trusty Brewster.
well.... it does start out wrong.... :aok
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Everyone will always have something that they like and something that they don't. And if you happen to fly or use something that they don't, well, you apparently have 'no skills' or whatever. Personally, I fly what I want to fly, and while I do sometimes get annoyed by how others act, which I may or may not approve of at the time. Ultimately, it is their way of play and as long as I am having fun that is all that matters. And if how others play effects you and your style of game-play then I suggest branching out and trying something different.
The game gets old quick going through the same rut over and over, doing something different at least livens up the game for a bit, if not gives you a new perspective on the tools at hand.
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Today I up my trusty Brewster. I tangled with a few then in comes a LA. Get on his six and he leaves, running away. I roll out, he returns, then he runs. Happened 4 or 5 times. Just before blowing a gasket I begin to ponder. I see a lot of talk on the forum about "run stangs" "spit dweeb" blah blah. Is it really wrong to capitalize on each planes strength? I was turning and burning the Brewster. Was I in the wrong to use its strength?
Random post, no doubt. Just a thought...
In this case the LA7 is simply playing to "win" as apposed to playing to "challenge oneself". There is nothing wrong with that. There are different approaches to the game, and to each their own.
That said, what IS wrong, in my opinion, are the people who fly only to win (using only uber rides, fighting only with advantage, ganging, picking, ho-ing, etc.) who then go on to chest thump, self promote and otherwise troll the game on 200 and in this forum. Those are the only people who are "in the wrong". You probably know exactly the people who I'm talking about.
Personally, I have far more respect for players who challenge themselves (even if they frequently lose) and only pity and ignore the chest-beating, "look how good I am" gamers.
My two cents.
<S>
Ryno
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I was turning and burning the Brewster. Was I in the wrong to use its strength?
Nope, you were flying to your strength which is absolutely the right thing to do. That is what you were both doing, the problem was you were both doing it evenly enough to reach the stand-off that caused your frustration. However there are some other options for you as the slower fighter, and I would like to make this suggestion.
When you see the faster aircraft coming back, don't turn into him for a merge, let him have your six until the last moment while you build speed. Then use a loaded roll to avoid the shot and bring yourself back onto him for a shot of your own as he overshoots. I have illustrated what that looks like in the diagram below from two different perspectives.
(http://www.leonbadboysmith.com/images/BRD10.jpg)
That may not be exactly what was happening, but you can set up a similar manoeuvre from many different situations providing you still use the loaded roll to force the faster aircraft to overshoot. Even then it involves an element of risk and it takes some practice to come out of your roll perfectly timed for the shot while they are still in range, but it is worth working on, because when it works it packs a big wow factor.
Hope that helps.
Badboy
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Thanks for the illustration. I had got to a point where I was frustrated then it occurred to me about survivability. I was tight turning, him using speed.
I always pretty much play how I want but try to maintain a sort of respect for each situation. It all just kind of made sense at one point to me and it eased my frustrations, (want to catch him, up a fast plane.)
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Thanks for the illustration. I had got to a point where I was frustrated then it occurred to me about survivability. I was tight turning, him using speed.
Yes, and pilots who are good in faster aircraft like P51, La7 etc are often expert at knowing exactly how long they can hold a turn with you before they need to break off and reset the fight. By tight turning you bleed speed and that opens the window for their inevitable extension.
The next time it happens, instead of getting frustrated you can take some risks and have a lot of fun practising something new.
You can be just as dangerous even when defensive and the first time you pop one like that, it will all be worth it.
Good luck with it.
Badboy
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Nope, you were flying to your strength which is absolutely the right thing to do. That is what you were both doing, the problem was you were both doing it evenly enough to reach the stand-off that caused your frustration. However there are some other options for you as the slower fighter, and I would like to make this suggestion.
When you see the faster aircraft coming back, don't turn into him for a merge, let him have your six until the last moment while you build speed. Then use a loaded roll to avoid the shot and bring yourself back onto him for a shot of your own as he overshoots. I have illustrated what that looks like in the diagram below from two different perspectives.
(http://www.leonbadboysmith.com/images/BRD10.jpg)
That may not be exactly what was happening, but you can set up a similar manoeuvre from many different situations providing you still use the loaded roll to force the faster aircraft to overshoot. Even then it involves an element of risk and it takes some practice to come out of your roll perfectly timed for the shot while they are still in range, but it is worth working on, because when it works it packs a big wow factor.
Hope that helps.
Badboy
Those were the two moves I used most often in my fights. Worked every single time. Everyone should at least learn these two moves. It will increase your survivability immensely! :aok
Nothing wrong with using your strengths. That's what you're suppose to do. Nothing wrong with extending to reset a fight after you've messed up either.
The Runstangs and Run90s are the ones who will still be flying a straight and level path with 5K+ separation. Why not use that speed and climb up a bit and gain an altitude advantage rather than getting no where fast (or... getting no where really fast? :headscratch: )
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Brewster and La7 are so far apart in performance that the situation described in the OP is almost certain to happen. The La7 simply cannot hand on to the Brewster, but can easily disengage. That does not mean that he needs to run out of icon range - he can still keep the pressure on, but he must try, see that it does not work out for him, reset, try again, etc. until the Brewster makes a mistake, or the La7 gets a lucky shot in.
Coming in screaming at 400+ mph for a difficult shot is not the only way for him. La7 is so fast and accelerates so fast that it can allow itself to try "stupid" things like trying a few knife-fight moves with the Brewster and see how it goes. Escapeability does not only allow one to run away - it allows one to attack from less than ideal conditions with the confidence that it can run if things go wrong. Zeke's are a good example - Most US planes "cannot" turn with it, but given a few 1000 feet to the fight and F6F/F4U,P51,P47 can try some turning moves with the zeke before disengaging in a dive. This is why zekes get destroyed in any fight that is not on the deck and in which they do not have fast allies to keep the enemy from escaping (as in scenarios/events/AvA).
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All good knowledge to have. I would like to point out that I did get frustrated but respect the other pilot and should he read this I don't want him to think I'm nit picking. He actually gave me the opportunity to learn a few things and as I reflect I admire the survivability he displayed...<S>
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All good knowledge to have. I would like to point out that I did get frustrated but respect the other pilot and should he read this I don't want him to think I'm nit picking. He actually gave me the opportunity to learn a few things and as I reflect I admire the survivability he displayed...<S>
I don't know why people replace "using commonsense" with "not willing to fight" or "he plays the survivability game". It is the same as "Hey everyone we are having a bar fights with bazookas, but if you have a knife and don't fight you are a coward, if you come in and get a lucky kill you are great! But eventually will be blown to bits anyway".
In the turning game the Brewster is the Bazooka vs the knife (La7), in the Speed/E-fighting game, the tables are turned.
If the LA does more than half a circle trying to get angles on a Brewster he is in trouble the Brewster's turn rate, energy retention in the horizontal (which allows him to go vertical if the LA does so after its slow from trying to turn with it). It is PURPOSELY putting yourself(LA pilot) in a bad situation, some people think its fun to fight a "challenging" fight that you aren't supposed to win, some people fly the plane to its strengths, fun to them is to string 6-10 kills a sortie, to do that you have to make smart decisions.
Better yet, think about it from your end, you KNOW you can out turn the LA7, that's the fight you want him to fight, if he plays the "challenging fight" game and you are any good behind the stick he SHOULD die, what fun is that for him? "Man, i turned with that Brewster for 1 circle, then he blew me out of the sky! What a challenge!"
Today I up my trusty LA7. I tangled with a few then in comes a Brewster. Get on his six and he turns hard, avoiding my shot. I gain some ground and return, when i get within 800 he gets in a turn I simply cannot keep up with. Happened 4 or 5 times. Just before blowing a gasket I begin to ponder. I see a lot of talk on the forum about "Nerf Brewsters" "Zeke's do figure 8s around most planes" blah blah. Is it really wrong to capitalize on each planes strength? I was BnZing the LA7. Was I in the wrong to use its strength?.
You weren't wrong to use its strength, and neither was the LA7 pilots for using his, this just makes the point clear, Energy fighting is the most efficient way to fight, Turn fighting is not. If you pitted the best energy fighter in the world vs the best turn fighter in the world, the turn fighter will be on the defensive the end for most of the fight if they stuck to their respective styles. The best pilot is one that can do BOTH when needed and can transition from one to the other at will.
The LA7 Pilot shouldn't have turned with you, but he could sure turn with a D9, P38, P51 for a much more extended period of time. Its all a matter of playing to your strengths and exploiting those strengths versus your opponents weaknesses.
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I don't know why people replace "using commonsense" with "not willing to fight" or "he plays the survivability game". It is the same as "Hey everyone we are having a bar fights with bazookas, but if you have a knife and don't fight you are a coward, if you come in and get a lucky kill you are great! But eventually will be blown to bits anyway".
In the turning game the Brewster is the Bazooka vs the knife (La7), in the Speed/E-fighting game, the tables are turned.
If the LA does more than half a circle trying to get angles on a Brewster he is in trouble the Brewster's turn rate, energy retention in the horizontal (which allows him to go vertical if the LA does so after its slow from trying to turn with it). It is PURPOSELY putting yourself(LA pilot) in a bad situation, some people think its fun to fight a "challenging" fight that you aren't supposed to win, some people fly the plane to its strengths, fun to them is to string 6-10 kills a sortie, to do that you have to make smart decisions.
Better yet, think about it from your end, you KNOW you can out turn the LA7, that's the fight you want him to fight, if he plays the "challenging fight" game and you are any good behind the stick he SHOULD die, what fun is that for him? "Man, i turned with that Brewster for 1 circle, then he blew me out of the sky! What a challenge!"
Today I up my trusty LA7. I tangled with a few then in comes a Brewster. Get on his six and he turns hard, avoiding my shot. I gain some ground and return, when i get within 800 he gets in a turn I simply cannot keep up with. Happened 4 or 5 times. Just before blowing a gasket I begin to ponder. I see a lot of talk on the forum about "Nerf Brewsters" "Zeke's do figure 8s around most planes" blah blah. Is it really wrong to capitalize on each planes strength? I was BnZing the LA7. Was I in the wrong to use its strength?.
You weren't wrong to use its strength, and neither was the LA7 pilots for using his, this just makes the point clear, Energy fighting is the most efficient way to fight, Turn fighting is not. If you pitted the best energy fighter in the world vs the best turn fighter in the world, the turn fighter will be on the defensive the end for most of the fight if they stuck to their respective styles. The best pilot is one that can do BOTH when needed and can transition from one to the other at will.
The LA7 Pilot shouldn't have turned with you, but he could sure turn with a D9, P38, P51 for a much more extended period of time. Its all a matter of playing to your strengths and exploiting those strengths versus your opponents weaknesses.
Because in years and players past, lots of us have known a number of pilots that are truly excellent enough in the uber LW rides to beat Brews, zekes and Spits at their own game. So from that perspective, which MAY NOT BE YOUR PERSPECTIVE, its disappointing.
Energy-->Angles-->Stall Fighting = What the best pilots that have ever played the game are able to do all the time, anytime and in virtually every plane.
That is a progression of a fight composed of all three flight modes. If you only know one of them...you'll never get there. You'll score fine but you'll lose everytime when you encounter guys that can do the progression. Ask DrBone, TC, Batfink, TonyJoey, Dodger, Bighorn, NathBDP, Skyrock, Levi, JOACHIM, Redbull, Grizz, Kappa, Fester, Dedalos, MOOT, etc. You can reach them via PM's, lol.
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I'm not on that ^ ^ ^ list?
This is an OUTRAGE!!!!
:bhead
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Because in years and players past, lots of us have known a number of pilots that are truly excellent enough in the uber LW rides to beat Brews, zekes and Spits at their own game. So from that perspective, which MAY NOT BE YOUR PERSPECTIVE, its disappointing.
Energy-->Angles-->Stall Fighting = What the best pilots that have ever played the game are able to do all the time, anytime and in virtually every plane.
That is a progression of a fight composed of all three flight modes. If you only know one of them...you'll never get there. You'll score fine but you'll lose everytime when you encounter guys that can do the progression. Ask DrBone, TC, Batfink, TonyJoey, Dodger, Bighorn, NathBDP, Skyrock, Levi, JOACHIM, Redbull, Grizz, Kappa, Fester, Dedalos, MOOT, etc. You can reach them via PM's, lol.
Ah, so encountering those guys and dying means you haven't mastered all 3. Therefore, on the flipside, if you fought any two (or perhaps three) of those guys, at the same time, in a 2v1 or even a 3v1, and won, it means you do know what you're doing. Hmmmm... interesting. Thanks for the reassurance!
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if you fought any two (or perhaps three) of those guys, at the same time, in a 2v1 or even a 3v1, and won,
you are aware that putting the higher number first implies that you had the numbers... :aok
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Because in years and players past, lots of us have known a number of pilots that are truly excellent enough in the uber LW rides to beat Brews, zekes and Spits at their own game. So from that perspective, which MAY NOT BE YOUR PERSPECTIVE, its disappointing.
Energy-->Angles-->Stall Fighting = What the best pilots that have ever played the game are able to do all the time, anytime and in virtually every plane.
That is a progression of a fight composed of all three flight modes. If you only know one of them...you'll never get there. You'll score fine but you'll lose everytime when you encounter guys that can do the progression. Ask DrBone, TC, Batfink, TonyJoey, Dodger, Bighorn, NathBDP, Skyrock, Levi, JOACHIM, Redbull, Grizz, Kappa, Fester, Dedalos, MOOT, etc. You can reach them via PM's, lol.
Of course pilot skill has plenty to do with it, which is why I said "the best in the world at e-fighting vs the best in the world at turn fighting". The pilots you named are all skilled, but I wasn't talking about individual skill, we were talking about using a plane to its strengths.
Sure, they beat other planes at their own game, who was flying the other plane? That is a different discussion. Last tour (or the one before), When Tonyjoey went on that 360-0 streak(or whatever that number might have been), I am fairly certain he didn't go out and do that in a 51 with the mentality that he was going to start turning with Zekes. He most likely flew his plane to its strengths, his experience taught him when he was able to get an angle on a zeke or when he needed to back off and extend for another pass. I am also fairly certain that in a multiple target environment he didn't commit himself to get low and slow on the deck and turn with a zeke while there are other targets in the air above him. He flew smart, he flew patiently. I am willing to bet he played the ENERGY game more than any other style.
Why do some people insist on trying to make it look like someone needs to climb some sort of ladder or talk to certain people or beat certain people to able to learn? It almost seems that you believe that if you haven't played Aces High and fought the best pilots here you know NOTHING about ACM, its not like you didn't learn it playing other games.
I have fought some of those names there, I have lost some and won some, so no, I don't lose *everytime*,
I might try to become the Best LA7 Pilot ever, do you think I am going to try and Stall fight the best 109x Pilot ever? No, because I know better, since I can't see who is flying behind the icon, I will treat every plane I see as if its the best pilot ever flying that plane until his flying tells me otherwise. Which means I will fly my plane it is strengths while trying to make him fly to his weaknesses.
My mentality is not like "Man, why did that 51 run from me?!? Why didn't he want to turn with my Zeke! What a coward!" its more like "OK, he did what he was supposed to do, Let me put myself in a position where I can get the jump on him or reset and try and sucker him into making a mistake (turning with me). When I die, I only blame myself.
What makes you think that I am only approaching it from one direction? What makes you think I don't work on my stall fighting or turn fighting? The difference is I know that you will have the MOST success while E-Fighting, you turn/stall fight only if you are put in a position when you have to.
No matter what you say or what you do or how much you troll, will ever change how I spend my 15 bucks, and how I approach this game. Believe it or not there are other games out there, I have taken the same approach in all, and in all I have been fairly successful in most.
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See Rule #4
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I guess I was misunderstood. (I was in a fight using my planes ability to turn tightly and I got upset because the opponent kept extending. I realized that he was using the same tactic I was, capitalizing on aircraft strengths, at which time I felt kind of like an idiot for getting mad because I was doing the same.)
Good discussions going on tho...
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I have no problem beating Brewsters or Zekes, cause all dweebs usually do in them is turn with them. The guys who fly zekes, brewsters, f4f, ki43, etc etc usually have never heard of a throttle. So I will let them do the lame flat turning game as I slowly throttle down, they get my six and we go into a scissor and you are going to fly by whether you want to or not.
Wantex has proven to be a little more difficult to beat in a zeke though :bhead I hate fighting his zeke cause it is like the Japs gave him extra armor and it takes twice as many rounds and a little too much brainpower, for my liking, to get him to overshoot.
But fight your fight, don't let someone trick you into fighting their fight. In my opinion, I don't care who's fight I am fighting. As long as I can get a fight then I am fine. It is those who will fight you 3 v 1 and lose all their buddies then decide to run, those are the ones I despise. I NEVER expect the : 190Dora, P51D, LA7, Tempest, P47M, Yak3, and Spit14 to actually fight cause 9/10 they won't fight. :D So I fight their fight and let them do their lame BnZ or shoot and run style until I die or until a squaddie comes to ruin them. :t
Its your money, use it how you want. :cheers:
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The only reason the brewster is not a hanger queen in AH is because we play in a captive environment where we have a propensity to furbals. In real life late war the Brewster would have been just flown past and given a low priority as not being much of a threat.
I never heard Vox traffic complain about 109K's or spits going straight up which is exactly the same as resetting with speed. Never heard someone say, "That doggoned Brewster turned real hard. Can you believe he is escaping the fight by turning. He should take it like a man and fly straight."
Most complaints like this are people venting their anger that another plane want fight in a manor that matches their plane's strength. Like calling a guy an ack hug'er when there are ten vulchers waiting for him to break.
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If not using each plane's strengths was not the purpose, HTC wouldn't have bothered making more than a single flight model for the game. In a fist fight, or aerial combat, the same rules apply to any conflict.
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Because in years and players past, lots of us have known a number of pilots that are truly excellent enough in the uber LW rides to beat Brews, zekes and Spits at their own game. So from that perspective, which MAY NOT BE YOUR PERSPECTIVE, its disappointing.
I have no problem beating Brewsters or Zekes, cause all dweebs usually do in them is turn with them. The guys who fly zekes, brewsters, f4f, ki43, etc etc usually have never heard of a throttle. So I will let them do the lame flat turning game as I slowly throttle down, they get my six and we go into a scissor and you are going to fly by whether you want to or not.
Wantex has proven to be a little more difficult to beat in a zeke though :bhead I hate fighting his zeke cause it is like the Japs gave him extra armor and it takes twice as many rounds and a little too much brainpower, for my liking, to get him to overshoot.
I agree with both statements. But a zeke will beat even those guys in a slow differential knife fight a majority of the time if the pilot keeps his wits and is competent. GhostCDB hit the nail on the head as to why many who fly the zeke or brew are easy to kill.....they don't use the throttle and overshoot. Put someone in a zeke who flies it a often, understands it's strengths, weaknesses, etc it becomes a different story. Few A6M3 pilots I see in the LWMA use the vertical at all, despite the A6M3 having a fairly good vert capabilities below 5K. Fewer still know how to use controlled stalls, barrel rolls, hard rudder and flaps in a zeke to prevent an overshoot.
I've fought several of the pilots mentioned while in an A6M3 back when I few it nearly exclusively. I won the majority of the time simply by exploiting the strengths of the plane...I had no illusions to the fact I would not have been able to do so if they choose not to knife fight me or were in a zeke as well. That said, I always enjoyed watching how well the really experienced could use flaps, anticipate and use excellently timed lead turns to make it a VERY difficult fight. It is impressive to watch.
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I always think it's interesting to consider why players tend towards one end or the other of the BnZ - TnB spectrum.
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I always think it's interesting to consider why players tend towards one end or the other of the BnZ - TnB spectrum.
What's more interesting around here is that other people want to force you to lean in the direction that makes it easier for them to get a kill, or to have a "fun" fight. Doing otherwise is dishonorable and/or makes you a dweeb. They don't ask, they almost demand, if you deviate from those instructions you are garbage and will never amount to anything.
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Ah, so encountering those guys and dying means you haven't mastered all 3. Therefore, on the flipside, if you fought any two (or perhaps three) of those guys, at the same time, in a 2v1 or even a 3v1, and won, it means you do know what you're doing. Hmmmm... interesting. Thanks for the reassurance!
It means those guys survive in all of those modes. Don't try to argue out of being a single dimensional fighter because it suits scoring. I've seen all of those guys in A5's up to 51's tangle at 3 to 1 or more odds and LAND 6.
Don't take it personally...you just be you and don't worry about what other people think.
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I always think it's interesting to consider why players tend towards one end or the other of the BnZ - TnB spectrum.
I absolutely see what you did there. lol. I wonder if others do. :aok :rofl
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What's more interesting around here is that other people want to force you to lean in the direction that makes it easier for them to get a kill, or to have a "fun" fight. Doing otherwise is dishonorable and/or makes you a dweeb. They don't ask, they almost demand, if you deviate from those instructions you are garbage and will never amount to anything.
WRONG.
It means other people don't wanna hear uberness until uberness is actually achieved, lol
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Nothing much you can do in this game except hacking Hitech's code or otherwise cheating for advantage is morally wrong.
Now, you were flying a Brewster, with which (no disrespect intended) a chimpanzee could win a turning dogfight against an LA or most other Late-War "monster" planes when flown by fighter jock of average skill. The LA has ways to win that fight, but instead of relatively intuitive angles fighting the LA must use advanced, difficult, tricky E fighting, which thing the Brew can still often mess up through prop-hanging and reaching out with the golden BBs at 400 plus yards. In the hangar *you* chose a plane that can outmaneuver most easily, but that comes at the price of being unable to run down most. He couldn't use the strengths of his plane to shoot you down, but guess what, you weren't able (in 4 or 5 attempts) to convert the strengths of *your* plane into a killing shot either. So it ended in a stalemate. Nothing shameful in that on your part, but nothing shameful on his part either. And if the La7 pilot had possessed the skill to convert into a killing opportunity on you, I don't think you would be any emotionally happier with that outcome than with him running away. The MA is a vicious and competitive game. You may not be happy when someone kills you or the prey slips away, but you can't reasonably expect the prey to lay down and die for you either. In the long term, that wouldn't really be any fun either now would it?
Today I up my trusty Brewster. I tangled with a few then in comes a LA. Get on his six and he leaves, running away. I roll out, he returns, then he runs. Happened 4 or 5 times. Just before blowing a gasket I begin to ponder. I see a lot of talk on the forum about "run stangs" "spit dweeb" blah blah. Is it really wrong to capitalize on each planes strength? I was turning and burning the Brewster. Was I in the wrong to use its strength?
Random post, no doubt. Just a thought...
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well.... it does start out wrong.... :aok
What's wrong with the Brew? True it turns so well that a chimp could win an angles fight against most planes in it, but that comes at the price of being slower than an iron toad. So it will often find other planes simply walking out of its gun range when it gains an angle, and will find itself in bad situations it cannot possibly extend away from. That's balanced. Some planes turn well but are slow, some are fast but turn badly. The Brew is simply near one of the extreme ends of this spectrum, and there's nothing wrong with that. :aok
Take your beloved F4U Corsair and compare it to a 190D9. They are also at very different places on the spectrum. The Corsair turns much better, the D9 has an edge in acceleration and top speed.
Now you may say that if a Brew manages to get close to the six of your Corsair for some reason, such as he dove on you or you were already engaged with another plane, then the fight is pretty easy mode for him after that. And you would be right! But if a Corsair locks onto the six of a slow D9 (perhaps it had engaged a P-51D in a classic matchup), it is also the Corsair's fight to loose and there is not too much the D9 pilot can do if the Corsair pilot is competent, right? All the planes have something going for them and some things that can be said against them, and I think in the long run the MA is more interesting if people are flying a variety of fighters to their various strengths, rather than a very few types.
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What's more interesting around here is that other people want to force you to lean in the direction that makes it easier for them to get a kill, or to have a "fun" fight. Doing otherwise is dishonorable and/or makes you a dweeb. They don't ask, they almost demand, if you deviate from those instructions you are garbage and will never amount to anything.
Well such vacuous rhetoric is easily recognized and ignored. I think implying superiority through applying an inherently safer or advantageous approach is equally meaningless.
Not really my point at all however.
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I always think it's interesting to consider why players tend towards one end or the other of the BnZ - TnB spectrum.
That's why I like the 109s so much. They can do both. And the Spit XIV too (the best 109 ever made!).
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Ah, so encountering those guys and dying means you haven't mastered all 3. Therefore, on the flipside, if you fought any two (or perhaps three) of those guys, at the same time, in a 2v1 or even a 3v1, and won, it means you do know what you're doing. Hmmmm... interesting. Thanks for the reassurance!
Here's a perfect illustration of my point from earlier in the thread.
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That's why I like the 109s so much. They can do both. And the Spit XIV too (the best 109 ever made!).
How dare you derail this thread with a discussion of the 109 GScholz. You never see a 109 thread derailed :old:
Yes tactics are very relevant to the opponent's aircraft. Unless you have a significant speed advantage, then ACM need not be very demanding at all.
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Energy-->Angles-->Stall Fighting = What the best pilots that have ever played the game are able to do all the time, anytime, in any situation and in virtually every plane.
An interesting statement. My addition in red is to clarify an implied point in the statement.
If "uberness" is using all three aspects, and statistics mean nothing in this game... how does one measure "uberness"? I believe its been stated or implied that it cannot be measured. If this is the case...at what point does one know they achieve this status?
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Hate PM's would be my 1st guess. :neener:
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Hate PM's would be my 1st guess. :neener:
Don't think so.... if it were that case, I would have had achieved 'uberness' many years ago.
Sometimes I think killing goons seems to create way more hate PM's than displays of awesome ACM :old:
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If "uberness" is using all three aspects, and statistics mean nothing in this game... how does one measure "uberness"? I believe its been stated or implied that it cannot be measured. If this is the case...at what point does one know they achieve this status?
The build-up finally releases and the next thing you know you're knee deep.
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An interesting statement. My addition in red is to clarify an implied point in the statement.
If "uberness" is using all three aspects, and statistics mean nothing in this game... how does one measure "uberness"? I believe its been stated or implied that it cannot be measured. If this is the case...at what point does one know they achieve this status?
Uberness is what your squadmates have been claiming since they got here. All of the rest of your post is drivel....again. When they can fly in those modes fluidly, come brag on the boards about their excellence...until then, pfffft...its just noise.
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WRONG.
It means other people don't wanna hear uberness until uberness is actually achieved, lol
Oh, who decides that ? You? The best pilot in your squad? This is where we have a fundamental difference in philosophy, we make our own definition of what skill is, we try to achieve the goals we set for ourselves, be it rank wise or kill streak or having a good fight vs multiple opponents, or having fun our way.
You still think its just a saying..but..We really don't give a Damn, what you think or anyone else thinks. We aren't here to please you.
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Uberness is what your squadmates have been claiming since they got here. All of the rest of your post is drivel....again. When they can fly in those modes fluidly, come brag on the boards about their excellence...until then, pfffft...its just noise.
No one currently in our squad claimed to be "uber," nor have we promoted that. In fact, our single stance has been a focus on effectiveness, so the über argument is sort of baseless.
That being said, your argument insults those we have shot down. You imply that we do not know how to fly stall fighting or turn fighting, which would belie a shortcoming in our skillset. Therefore, in line with your reasoning, if we happen to win a fight, it's logically it shows an accomplishment on our behalf, as we would have been fighting against someone who supposedly possesses additional superior skillsets.
Logically, your argument does not hold weight, unless you mean to state that the opponents we defeat are not versed in e-fighting, in which case, what you have stated about us lacking in skillset applies equally to them.
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I'm the Uber of hitting trees? Do I win a prize? :D
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Its maybe funnier with pilots thats fight even if they are in a bad situation. (because then i get kills) and i can go into a fight even if i know i will die very fast. Its fun and something i can do in a game. In terms of smartness however, a good pilot uses his planes strenghts and he fights only the fights he is sure he can win. Its boring for his opponents but there is nothing wrong with it. A2A combat is nothing about a fair fight, kill your enemy as quik as possible and then go home. We can be goofing around like we do because ther are no consequences if we get killed.
Noone in this game is playing fair or noble. its not fair that a 109 pilot go vertical when in fight with a Brewster but noone complains about it.
Guys like snailman and Bruv are really not funny to meet in the air because they kill me instantly, but i cannot complain about their way of fighting.
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When you see the faster aircraft coming back, don't turn into him for a merge, let him have your six until the last moment while you build speed. Then use a loaded roll to avoid the shot and bring yourself back onto him for a shot of your own as he overshoots. I have illustrated what that looks like in the diagram below from two different perspectives.
That always ends in a no ping visit to the tower.
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Well such vacuous rhetoric is easily recognized and ignored. I think implying superiority through applying an inherently safer or advantageous approach is equally meaningless.
Not really my point at all however.
You fellers obviously didn't see what shida did here, lmao! You may define skill how you like but I haven't seen a turd yet that called himself a turd. Turds are floaters because they float...but they certainly aren't turds, right? lol
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You fellers obviously didn't see what shida did here, lmao! You may define skill how you like but I haven't seen a turd yet that called himself a turd. Turds are floaters because they float...but they certainly aren't turds, right? lol
So I challenge you to see where we say we are uber or the best at this game? Please find a single post where we say we are the best squad or any of us says we are the best pilot in AH.
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You still think its just a saying..but..We really don't give a Damn, what you think or anyone else thinks. We aren't here to please you.
This 'end all arguments' clause you fellows keep trying to employ is wearing a little thin given how much arguing you seem to feel driven to do on this forum. :headscratch:
In fact, our single stance has been a focus on effectiveness, so the über argument is sort of baseless.
Aren't you rather belabouring to prove an axiom though? That selecting the most effective technique is more effective?
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Give me unlimited lives and I would absolutely run into the bazooka bar fights with a knife. Why not? Eventually, with enough attempts, at the end I'll be standing there when its done with everyone staring and whispering "That crazy *&^%$% just dove into a bazooka fight with a steak knife and won". Then I say some cheesy line like "Sorry to cut things short boys, I just came back for my jacket", wink at the waitress, throw the knife into the bullseye on the dart board and walk out.
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Give me unlimited lives and I would absolutely run into the bazooka bar fights with a knife. Why not? Eventually, with enough attempts, at the end I'll be standing there when its done with everyone staring and whispering "That crazy *&^%$% just dove into a bazooka fight with a steak knife and won". Then I say some cheesy line like "Sorry to cut things short boys, I just came back for my jacket", wink at the waitress, throw the knife into the bullseye on the dart board and walk out.
This.....but Aspen, your bazooka bar fight score will suck bruh...lol
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Uberness is what your squadmates have been claiming since they got here. All of the rest of your post is drivel....again. When they can fly in those modes fluidly, come brag on the boards about their excellence...until then, pfffft...its just noise.
Thank you for the response, Changeup. It didn't, however, answer the question.
It's a simple question. I grant you the answer might not be so simple, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter.
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BTW fellers....how did your duels go with TC and Joker1 the other night? Did you whip up on ole TC and Joker?? They had lots of libations in um I betcha too. How many of you vs them? I never got that part of the story? Was it even money or was it just TC and Joker1 against 3 or more? lol.
lemme know how that went.
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BTW fellers....how did your duels go with TC and Joker1 the other night? Did you whip up on ole TC and Joker?? They had lots of libations in um I betcha too. How many of you vs them? I never got that part of the story? Was it even money or was it just TC and Joker1 against 3 or more? lol.
lemme know how that went.
I had to leave but I think out of the 6-7 duels we had, we lost the first one (maybe another?) and won the rest..it was 2v2 ..not sure what happened after I left..maybe they can answer that question for you. For someone who thinks so little of us, you sure are informed aren't ya?
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Give me unlimited lives and I would absolutely run into the bazooka bar fights with a knife. Why not? Eventually, with enough attempts, at the end I'll be standing there when its done with everyone staring and whispering "That crazy *&^%$% just dove into a bazooka fight with a steak knife and won". Then I say some cheesy line like "Sorry to cut things short boys, I just came back for my jacket", wink at the waitress, throw the knife into the bullseye on the dart board and walk out.
You wouldn't walk out of the room, you might take one or 2 with ya, but someone would blow you up, however if you find that fun thats great! My problem is that if you are the type that doesn't find that fun everyone jumps on you and calls you a coward. This metaphor is quite applicable actually, half the folks calling you a coward are holding bazookas themselves.
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(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc473/UnkShadow/threaddirection.gif)(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc473/UnkShadow/ilike.jpg)
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(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc473/UnkShadow/threaddirection.gif)(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc473/UnkShadow/ilike.jpg)
:lol
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:O 1 thread after another!
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(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc473/UnkShadow/threaddirection.gif)(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc473/UnkShadow/ilike.jpg)
:rofl
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(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc473/UnkShadow/threaddirection.gif)(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc473/UnkShadow/ilike.jpg)
So true. :rofl
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Anyone remember the scene from Lonesome Dove where Gus is discussing chasing the buffalo herd with Pea?
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BTW fellers....how did your duels go with TC and Joker1 the other night? Did you whip up on ole TC and Joker?? They had lots of libations in um I betcha too. How many of you vs them? I never got that part of the story? Was it even money or was it just TC and Joker1 against 3 or more? lol.
lemme know how that went.
They won two out of seven engagements, 2v2, same planes. Kruel got booted by his ISP after we won our last fight and we switched to 1v1's. I lost one 1v1 engagement out of about 5 or 6 fights.
I might still have the films (can't remember if I deleted them or not to make space for other FRAPS films). Not sure how this is relevant.
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It's becoming a new form of entertainment watching everyone trying to find the bleeding edge of the new Skuzzy WhupBan, so you can get back to stirring up slop slinging purse fights.
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I had to leave but I think out of the 6-7 duels we had, we lost the first one (maybe another?) and won the rest..it was 2v2 ..not sure what happened after I left..maybe they can answer that question for you. For someone who thinks so little of us, you sure are informed aren't ya?
Nope, I received an unsolicited PM regarding the event. I thought I'd ask to see what you fellers said. I'm sure he'll be along shortly.
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Aren't you rather belabouring to prove an axiom though? That selecting the most effective technique is more effective?
On the contrary, Robert Shaw did all of the proof of logic. I'm simply amused at how the crowd here thinks that following established logic is somehow a sign of weakness, when in fact it is simply following one of the most basic and fundamental rules of air combat. There is a degree of satisfaction watching such arguments, knowing that that those decrying it most are the same ones claiming understanding of ACM. It's quite ironic, actually.
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I assume Changeup won't answer my question. Maybe he doesn't know. Pity, based on this post:
Aces High, by virtue of its design, always unmasks the skilled vs. the unskilled and score is not a measure of either. Have fun...doing it your way just be very careful of claiming uberness because we already know whether you are...or whether you are not.
I figured he knew.
Oh...BTW....why is the pot calling the kettle black? :lol
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Is it really wrong to capitalize on each planes strength? I was turning and burning the Brewster. Was I in the wrong to use its strength?
Not only is it not wrong, it is the way you should be flying. Remember, you were flying a fighter plane. The way you win a fight is to use the strengths of your plane better than your opponent uses the strengths of his plane. If I have superior speed, I will use it. If you have superior speed, I expect you to use it. If I have a height advantage, I will use it. If you have a height advantage, I expect you to use it. I need to find some way to beat you in spite of your height advantage.
If you aren't expected to capitalize on the strength of your plane, we might as well all be flying the same plane. Log in. Today's map is Greebo, and today's plane is the A6m. You don't get to choose a different plane, everyone is flying the same thing. That's OK for certain scenarios, but part of the Aces High experience is seeing how the different planes stack up against each other.
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Nope, you were flying to your strength which is absolutely the right thing to do. That is what you were both doing, the problem was you were both doing it evenly enough to reach the stand-off that caused your frustration. However there are some other options for you as the slower fighter, and I would like to make this suggestion.
When you see the faster aircraft coming back, don't turn into him for a merge, let him have your six until the last moment while you build speed. Then use a loaded roll to avoid the shot and bring yourself back onto him for a shot of your own as he overshoots. I have illustrated what that looks like in the diagram below from two different perspectives.
(http://www.leonbadboysmith.com/images/BRD10.jpg)
That may not be exactly what was happening, but you can set up a similar manoeuvre from many different situations providing you still use the loaded roll to force the faster aircraft to overshoot. Even then it involves an element of risk and it takes some practice to come out of your roll perfectly timed for the shot while they are still in range, but it is worth working on, because when it works it packs a big wow factor.
Hope that helps.
Badboy
Lmao badboy actually helping someone. Did you have an epiphany?
Anyway, I'd take this guys advice. This is what you do agaisnt those pesky BnZers, especially in a plane that is slow. Badboy calls it the loaded roll (which is probably the right turn) I call it a lag roll because it is almost like you lag on their 6, when they are following you in the nose down turn they will be blacking out and aiming ahead so they can't see you. Then cut throttle a bit and do a roll right over them and maybe get a shot.
It takes a lot of practice and timimg. But definitely need to learn the trick when you are fighting in slower planes.
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Based on the plane I am flying which is either : P38J, 109K4, or Ki84 I am fighting to whatever will make the fight somewhat fun.
If I know I am fighting a newer guy I will attempt to make it interesting for myself and at least a learning experience for the person I am fighting, not just completely smack him into the ground. This may involve me giving up my six a few times or just simply not firing when I am behind him but instead disengaging and allowing him to re-merge. I don't know why but beating easier people just isn't fun anymore, it is almost like vulching a field. I don't understand the enjoyment people get out of vulching unless they are capping a field. Usually after the fight, if I won or lost, I will give the other pilot tips. It is actually how I met a few of the guys in my squad now.
Now if the pilot is better than me or as good as me I am not holding back :lol I already suck so giving myself to someone who is just as good is not going to happen. I usually lose anyways cause I get impatient or I simply forget what to do in a certain situation.
The game is about making fun for yourself not listening to how others think you should fight.
Earlier today I logged in, for the first time in maybe a week and a half. I go to the fight between 231Knights-232Rooks...I sit in the tower and I see 3 NIKI's at 25k a Brewster at 20k a few spits a few high ponies. I try to up from the field (My joystick is already weak sauce so I didn't expect to live) but a 190 flies past at least 4 guys from 15k just to vulch my P38. I got a laugh out of it. I upped again, and flew towards the town as a P51 dives on me, I reverse him and a Yak isn't too far behind so I pull off. Yak one ping PW's me so I bail. I up from a near field to get altitude. When I arrive at 231 again I engage 3 ponies in a 3 v 1. . .They were tough AT FIRST, then they got impatient and all ended up coming at the same angle and easily reversible. 2 of them ran off while I fought one last one. I killed him, then a Pony returns and dives on me. I evade and evade and evade and I guess he gets bored so he eventually tried to slow down, I reversed him he ran to the deck. I was aware there were a lot of high enemies around I just didn't care lol I chased him. A pony and Me410 dives on me I break and as I break the pony turns around and comes back to me, I laugh because I expected it. So here I am fighting yet another 3 v 1 in a P38J v 2 Ponies and a Me410. A spit16 then dives into me as I get on the initial P51 and of course the P51 runs AGAIN. . .The spit16 saddles me, I reversed him once but couldn't stick with his turn, he turned into me and I died. I didn't get mad, just simply laughed.
It's the game you pay for really and I used to tell people how to fly the game ALL the time. Then DrBone yelled at me for whining and told me there isn't anything I can do about it and that its always been like this and I know that. He made a lot of sense, because it has always been like this. Well lately it has and by lately I mean since 2011.
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On the contrary, Robert Shaw did all of the proof of logic. I'm simply amused at how the crowd here thinks that following established logic is somehow a sign of weakness, when in fact it is simply following one of the most basic and fundamental rules of air combat.
I flew against him at the furball lake once. He was winging round with someone in Spitfires. I called him a picker :lol I actually find his text a little limited / too conventional in the context of Aces High.
There is a degree of satisfaction watching such arguments, knowing that that those decrying it most are the same ones claiming understanding of ACM. It's quite ironic, actually.
I don't think that's quite it. The informed aren't decrying the application of using the strengths of one's aircraft as I think a brief survey of this thread indicates. It's more what you do with it and why you choose to employ it in the first place which is the point.
I think Ryno summarized it best:
That said, what IS wrong, in my opinion, are the people who fly only to win (using only uber rides, fighting only with advantage, ganging, picking, ho-ing, etc.) who then go on to chest thump, self promote and otherwise troll the game on 200 and in this forum.
Just a question really, I doubt this kind of conversation can ever reconcile the differing ideologies but have you lot just once considered trying to understand the prevailing culture here? That it is different than the one you are used to in your old game? I mean I don't wish to sound rude, I'm very glad you and your fellows are able to continue your hobby but you haven't exactly made an effort to fit in or even be respectful of the traditions of your new home. Rather more been wrecking the furniture and trying to shape the Aces High culture to your own desires it seems to me.
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Just a question really, I doubt this kind of conversation can ever reconcile the differing ideologies but have you lot just once considered trying to understand the prevailing culture here? That it is different than the one you are used to in your old game? I mean I don't wish to sound rude, I'm very glad you and your fellows are able to continue your hobby but you haven't exactly made an effort to fit in or even be respectful of the traditions of your new home. Rather more been wrecking the furniture and trying to shape the Aces High culture to your own desires it seems to me.
I think you're actually quite insightful. In fact, spot on. However, it has nothing to do with wanting to make "Aces High" more like the "old game" (Fighter Ace), or any other game. Aerial combat is about killing the other guy, and the other team, as quickly and efficiently as possible, using the choice of air combat maneuvers that are most applicable to each situation. We've found that the community here has bastardized that concept, turning it into a leisurely activity skewed with subjective concepts of honor and "fun." We do not intend to now or ever fit that mold. We come from a background of very competitive play across numerous flight sims, where the winner is the last man standing regardless of how he got there (without cheating, of course). If it is possible, it is fair. This isn't to cover up deficiencies or inadequacies, it's simply because we're more interested in, for example, killing 10 guys than we are in in having a single 20-minute long "great fight."
Bluntly, we didn't come here to adapt, we came here to kill. We don't care if others disagree with us, but in similar fashion, don't expect us to accept their opinions. We will do what we want, how we want (within the confines of the game, that is). I'm not sure how many times this needs to be repeated until it's realized that we truly mean it.
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Bluntly, we didn't come here to adapt, we came here to kill. We don't care if others disagree with us, but in similar fashion, don't expect us to accept their opinions. We will do what we want, how we want (within the confines of the game, that is). I'm not sure how many times this needs to be repeated until it's realized that we truly mean it.
And that's your right to choose to do so. Repetition isn't necessary. The resistance you are meeting has little to do with that is what I'm trying to illustrate. You assert quite forcefully you don't care and will do what you want and yet you fellows are continuously participating in arguments about what your activities mean. No going about your business quietly suggests to me at least that you are rather more interested in trying to cultivate a reputation here than your not caring implies. No?
We've found that the community here has bastardized that concept, turning it into a leisurely activity skewed with subjective concepts of honor and "fun." We do not intend to now or ever fit that mold. We come from a background of very competitive play across numerous flight sims, where the winner is the last man standing regardless of how he got there (without cheating, of course). If it is possible, it is fair. This isn't to cover up deficiencies or inadequacies, it's simply because we're more interested in, for example, killing 10 guys than we are in in having a single 20-minute long "great fight."
Yes that's true from a certain perspective. But that's equally alright isn't it, if that's what people choose to do? Perhaps not using your approach is not a deficiency but a choice? This is just a past time after all right? I have met people who try to extract much more from this game and arguably more disturbingly perverted things from other players than choosing not to fly efficiently or smart. It just strikes me that in fact it is your faction that is the most intolerant. You insist score is the only worthwhile measure, you insist a kill regardless of circumstance is meaningful. I don't agree with either point myself but I'm just one tiny person.
You should join my plane for half an hour once. Most of my MA merges start with at least one plus-e opponent on my high six and me alone wriggling like a noobly maggot on a hook. It's either start disadvantageously or die of boredom when you are a solitary off peak-hours player.
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I think you're actually quite insightful. In fact, spot on. However, it has nothing to do with wanting to make "Aces High" more like the "old game" (Fighter Ace), or any other game. Aerial combat is about killing the other guy, and the other team, as quickly and efficiently as possible, using the choice of air combat maneuvers that are most applicable to each situation. We've found that the community here has bastardized that concept, turning it into a leisurely activity skewed with subjective concepts of honor and "fun." We do not intend to now or ever fit that mold. We come from a background of very competitive play across numerous flight sims, where the winner is the last man standing regardless of how he got there (without cheating, of course). If it is possible, it is fair. This isn't to cover up deficiencies or inadequacies, it's simply because we're more interested in, for example, killing 10 guys than we are in in having a single 20-minute long "great fight."
Bluntly, we didn't come here to adapt, we came here to kill. We don't care if others disagree with us, but in similar fashion, don't expect us to accept their opinions. We will do what we want, how we want (within the confines of the game, that is). I'm not sure how many times this needs to be repeated until it's realized that we truly mean it.
Good to know, thanks.
- oldman
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This is amusing. Winning is serious business to some folks, to the point that it matters in their lives. :)
I'm waiting for the first resume to come through with a "Number xx Ranked Player" in an online game as a credential.
When it does, I'll then check to see if it lists "The Damned v2.0" instead of Phi Beta Kappa as an organization. :lol
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You still think its just a saying..but..We really don't give a Damn, what you think or anyone else thinks. We aren't here to please you.
Just as long as the AH Community doesn't start thinking that The Damned's motto is "We Don't Give a Damn" or "We really don't give a Damn" .... in which it is not
our 3 long time standing motto's & tradition have always been
"Damned If We Do, No Fun If We Don't"
"Train Like you Fight, Fight Like you Train" ( per Damned Ren :aok )
"Teamwork Triumphs"
as for Joker1 and my drunken fun after FSO back around July 18th/19th... myself along with Joker1, skyyr, kruel and I think Fulcrum was there but had to leave??? we al went to the DA to do some 2 vs 2 or 2 vs 3, but ended up being just only 2vs2 engagements... I had a blast, can't remember much after the first 1 or 2 fights, but it was all fun... kruel/skyyr won some , Joker1 and myself won some... I'm sure kruel & skyyr won the majority
ended up flying most of the night in the MA ( well til daylight next Sat morning ) with skyyr, BATMANN?, Fulcrum???, then Fess hoped on and flew with me til my scotch ran out around 8:30 AM or so Sat Morning........
What I am most interested in , is who is the CO of our squad? I've heard and seen text buffer screenshots that stated that I was not the Damned CO ( and Damned AH CAG ), that someone else is the Damned CO?
first I have heard of it, but if anyone has any news or info, please feel free to send it to me via PM, or post screenshots/films here................. it would be much appreciated
Cheers everyone
<S>
TC
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This is amusing. Winning is serious business to some folks, to the point that it matters in their lives. :)
I'm waiting for the first resume to come through with a "Number xx Ranked Player" in an online game as a credential.
When it does, I'll then check to see if it lists "The Damned v2.0" instead of Phi Beta Kappa as an organization. :lol
:rofl :rofl :lol
Thanks for that mir! hehehhe
TC ( Johnny )
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:rofl :rofl :lol
Thanks for that mir! hehehhe
TC ( Johnny )
lol TC :) I need to join you and Joker on a Friday night and partake in some drinks and laughs. :)
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No going about your business quietly suggests to me at least that you are rather more interested in trying to cultivate a reputation here than your not caring implies. No?
This. I sniffed this out when the whole "show player names in icon" topic came up. They give a damn, make no mistake.
I am almost as smart as nrshida, btw.
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ended up flying most of the night in the MA ( well til daylight next Sat morning ) with skyyr, BATMANN?, Fulcrum???, then Fess hoped on and flew with me til my scotch ran out around 8:30 AM or so Sat Morning........
I was there briefly, TC, but had to leave as my eyelids were starting to stick to my pupils...it was almost 3AM. I heard a fun was had by all. :)
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I am almost as smart as nrshida, btw.
:lol Poor you. I'm an idiot savant (http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/8443/crazy6.gif)
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Badboy calls it the loaded roll (which is probably the right term) I call it a lag roll because it is almost like you lag on their 6, when they are following you in the nose down turn they will be blacking out and aiming ahead so they can't see you. Then cut throttle a bit and do a roll right over them and maybe get a shot.
There are a number of manoeuvres that employ loaded rolls, but the term "lag roll" is used to describe an offensive manoeuvre, not a defensive one. I've posted a diagram and explanation below for two very similar manoeuvres, the lag roll, and the vector roll.
(http://www.leonbadboysmith.com/images/LagRoll.png)
The Lag and Vector Roll are variations on the same theme. These manoeuvres are intended to allow you to reduce relative closure while correcting an imminent aspect problem. They both involve a roll around the flight path of a turning target. This roll reduces your relative closure because of the extended distance that you fly. The roll technique, when flown properly, limits any tendency for angle off to increase. These two manoeuvres differ primarily in the amount of g that you use in the roll. A lag roll is a relatively slow, smooth roll whereas the vector roll is a quicker, more aggressive roll. The decision on which type of roll to use is a function of range and closure. For slow overtake and longer ranges, use the lag roll. For high closure and short ranges, use the vector roll. You begin the manoeuvre from inside the turn of the target. You recognize the need for the manoeuvre due to the increase in angle off and high closure. To start the manoeuvre, increase your back pressure momentarily to try to reduce as much angle off as possible. Then, without reducing back pressure, begin a roll opposite the direction of turn. You want to fly up and over the flight path of the target. As you reach approximately 90 degrees of roll, you should be high and six o'clock to the target. Unload and roll quickly around to point your lift vector back into a nose in lead position. At this point, you play your back pressure to allow the target to move ahead enough to allow you to be able to pull back down. You vary your back pressure in the roll to control your overtake and to move your flight path up and over the target's flight path. The target's turn and the attacker's forward movement result in the attacker reaching a high 6 o'clock advantage with his lift vector on the target. From there, the attacker can "play" his pull down to control his range and closure.
The manoeuvre I described is commonly referred to as the barrel roll defence. The animation below shows an example, it take a moment to load and pauses for you to read the text.
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Animations/Animation8.gif)
Hope that helps...
Badboy
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There are a number of manoeuvres that employ loaded rolls, but the term "lag roll" is used to describe an offensive manoeuvre, not a defensive one. I've posted a diagram and explanation below for two very similar manoeuvres, the lag roll, and the vector roll.
(http://www.leonbadboysmith.com/images/LagRoll.png)
The Lag and Vector Roll are variations on the same theme. These manoeuvres are intended to allow you to reduce relative closure while correcting an imminent aspect problem. They both involve a roll around the flight path of a turning target. This roll reduces your relative closure because of the extended distance that you fly. The roll technique, when flown properly, limits any tendency for angle off to increase. These two manoeuvres differ primarily in the amount of g that you use in the roll. A lag roll is a relatively slow, smooth roll whereas the vector roll is a quicker, more aggressive roll. The decision on which type of roll to use is a function of range and closure. For slow overtake and longer ranges, use the lag roll. For high closure and short ranges, use the vector roll. You begin the manoeuvre from inside the turn of the target. You recognize the need for the manoeuvre due to the increase in angle off and high closure. To start the manoeuvre, increase your back pressure momentarily to try to reduce as much angle off as possible. Then, without reducing back pressure, begin a roll opposite the direction of turn. You want to fly up and over the flight path of the target. As you reach approximately 90 degrees of roll, you should be high and six o'clock to the target. Unload and roll quickly around to point your lift vector back into a nose in lead position. At this point, you play your back pressure to allow the target to move ahead enough to allow you to be able to pull back down. You vary your back pressure in the roll to control your overtake and to move your flight path up and over the target's flight path. The target's turn and the attacker's forward movement result in the attacker reaching a high 6 o'clock advantage with his lift vector on the target. From there, the attacker can "play" his pull down to control his range and closure.
The manoeuvre I described is commonly referred to as the barrel roll defence. The animation below shows an example, it take a moment to load and pauses for you to read the text.
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Animations/Animation8.gif)
Hope that helps...
Badboy
Ahh okay, yeah this is the move I was referring to in which I thought you were infering. Too many people don't really understand this maneuver (which Is a good thing, cause I need more kills.) Cooley taught me this move a long time ago and I could never thank him ebough lol
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As much as I hate to do it because it bores me. If Im in lets say a 109g14 and there is a Brewster or ki43 or A6m trying to engage me and I don't have E or alt to attempt a rope, I will extend away. (Its really only these 3 planes though). Normally it's fun to try to win these fights, but if you are in a fighter that at least doesn't maneuver as well as a ki84/f4u then you will generally have no chance to win in a TnB fight vs a brew, ki43 or a6m.
Sadly extending away is really your only chance to stay alive vs these 3 types of planes. I typically avoid them at all cost.
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Badboy,
That is a great move if the NIK pulls up and tries to fight. That doesn't happen much anymore, lmao. Now they just blow through, climb and continue the Fascinating E slashes. It's not the old days anymore where the NIK would have gone oblique after the over shoot, throttled back, nose-up, flapped and rolled over and gotten the kill after the object plane tried to create overshoot number 2 with another barrel roll or three.
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Just as long as the AH Community doesn't start thinking that The Damned's motto is "We Don't Give a Damn" or "We really don't give a Damn" .... in which it is not
What the community thinks about The Damned is up to The Damned.
Unlike WWII where what your enemy thought of you was at the bottom of the list, AH survives when people are having fun and enjoying themselves. The red guys here are actually our allies in the big picture.
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I couldn't agree more, AMAX. In this particular case the detractors appear to be a small, but very vocal, subset of the community.
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Badboy,
That is a great move if the NIK pulls up and tries to fight. That doesn't happen much anymore, lmao. Now they just blow through...
It can still work even if they intend to blow through nose low. If you suspect that's what they will do because they are much faster, the trick is to keep your speed as high as possible, start the roll earlier and use less G, that way you minimise the speed difference and can still get a shot. However the real challenge isn't bringing your guns to bear, it is doing it before they are too far away for an effective kill shot. The problem is that with some aircraft combinations that is a lot harder, but I think it is still a good option for an aggressive defence.
Hope that helps.
Badboy
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Is it really wrong to capitalize on each planes strength? Was I in the wrong to use its strength?
No and no. Fly how you want. Destroy opposing planes and vehicles how you want. Most of all, HAVE FUN! :aok
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We really don't give a Damn, what you think or anyone else thinks.
If that was true, you wouldn't have posted in this thread.
ack-ack
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No and no. Fly how you want. Destroy opposing planes and vehicles how you want. Most of all, HAVE FUN! :aok
Cheers to that!
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If that was true, you wouldn't have posted in this thread.
ack-ack
If you scroll up you will see I was participating with the OP, until, ChangeUp starts running his mouth. Merely expressing that his opinion holds no weight with us, and I will repeat it until it sinks in, maybe they will figure it out.
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Merely expressing that his opinion holds no weight with us, and I will repeat it until it sinks in, maybe they will figure it out.
Thanks for proving my point. If you really "didn't give a damn" then you wouldn't feel the need to repeat "your point" ad nauseum.
ack-ack
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I don't give a Damn about what your point is :)
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I don't give a Damn about what your point is :)
On a side note, I still think Ack Ack should join the AKs...if only so I can see "AKAKAK landed 7 kills" flash up on the buffer. :D :aok
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On a side note, I still think Ack Ack should join the AKs...if only so I can see "AKAKAK landed 7 kills" flash up on the buffer. :D :aok
Pilot1: Check it! AKAKAK!
Pilot 2: Dude, you don't have simulate the sound, the game does it for you..
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Pilot1: Check it! AKAKAK!
Pilot 2: Dude, you don't have simulate the sound, the game does it for you..
To further de-rail, with 'Battle of Britain', I always thought they said "Takatakatakataka." When I watched it with subtitles, it was "Attack attack attack."
Silly speaking Brits! Zack, I blame you!
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"Derail"?
This thread didn't just derail...it fell off the bridge into the river, floated downstream 10 miles, nearly drowned in the rapids, and finally went over the falls into the rocks below!
Now all we need is for Midway to show up and all will be right with the world! :old:
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I don't give a Damn about what your point is :)
His piont is you've become his puppet, puppet.
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His piont is you've become his puppet, puppet.
Better a puppet on strings than...
(http://i.imgur.com/mvD2qsT.jpg)
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Better a puppet on strings than...
(http://i.imgur.com/mvD2qsT.jpg)
:lol
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Sadly extending away is really your only chance to stay alive vs these 3 types of planes. I typically avoid them at all cost.
There's really no need to extend "away" (as in horisontal distance). G-14's climb advantage against these types is so massive that all you need to do is out climb them and then dive on them and repeat.
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...if one doesn't 'like' that kind of fight (being the fighter with vastly more power but with higher wing-loading) well, too bad. There are things in life various people don't like. The fact just is that development in fighter aircraft (largely tied engine developement) led to a situation which saw wing loadings and top speeds raising up. Brewster for example just happens to be in the lower end of this spectrum ie. having low wing-loading and obviously having very little power compared to the late war fighters.
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There's really no need to extend "away" (as in horisontal distance). G-14's climb advantage against these types is so massive that all you need to do is out climb them and then dive on them and repeat.
Yes but you need yo be going at least 50-100 mph faster from the start. All of these planes typically have decent vert climbs and if you get slow then you won't be able to outclimb them. That brew is like a damn helicopter.
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...if one doesn't 'like' that kind of fight (being the fighter with vastly more power but with higher wing-loading) well, too bad. There are things in life various people don't like. The fact just is that development in fighter aircraft (largely tied engine developement) led to a situation which saw wing loadings and top speeds raising up. Brewster for example just happens to be in the lower end of this spectrum ie. having low wing-loading and obviously having very little power compared to the late war fighters.
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"Yes but you need yo be going at least 50-100 mph faster from the start. All of these planes typically have decent vert climbs and if you get slow then you won't be able to outclimb them. That brew is like a damn helicopter."
Heh, very telling. :)
Of course having bit of an attention span helps in virtual air combat and in life in general.
A question for you: what is the most efficient way for a fighter aircraft in AH to generate energy as in "E" as quickly as possible?
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"Yes but you need yo be going at least 50-100 mph faster from the start. All of these planes typically have decent vert climbs and if you get slow then you won't be able to outclimb them. That brew is like a damn helicopter."
Heh, very telling. :)
Of course having bit of an attention span helps in virtual air combat and in life in general.
A question for you: what is the most efficient way for a fighter aircraft in AH to generate energy as in "E" as quickly as possible?
Go straight down..... :old:
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Yes pointing the nose down forsure.
I'm just saying when you get down n dirty with a brew in a g14, if you give up your E in order to loop around them then you prob won't be able to pull a rope off. Depending on how many rolls and loops. And I'm talking as if both planes are flying by equal pilots b
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A question for you: what is the most efficient way for a fighter aircraft in AH to generate energy as in "E" as quickly as possible?
A zero G parabolic acceleration? Next to that fly straight and level to accelerate? Unpack the emergency E kit stored under the seat? The suspense is killing me (http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k526/rwrk2/popcorn.gif)
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Quickest way to gain E is to climb at best climb speed (alt-x).
E = kinetic energy + potential energy
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Quickest way to gain E is to climb at best climb speed (alt-x).
E = kinetic energy + potential energy
If you can make the space to do it. It leaves you pretty vulnerable and is a bit predictable. How do you responsd when flying the Brewster when you observe this in an opponent?
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Quickest way to gain E is to climb at best climb speed (alt-x).
E = kinetic energy + potential energy
True. But of course best ROC speed in these planes is well below both their corner speed and comfortable speed for a vertical maneuver. So while you are are gaining energy rapidly you aren't very maneuverable until you take the time to convert some of that alt into speed...but I suppose that is one of those things that makes energy fighting kind of tricky compared to relatively more intuitive angles tactics, a thing I'm sure you are aware of.
Players in this game seem to have the idea that E fighting is "easy mode" compared to t'n'b fighting, an odd notion that conflicts with my own flight sim experience as well as Robert Shaw's real world observations.
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Quickest way to gain E is to climb at best climb speed (alt-x).
E = kinetic energy + potential energy
I'm not sure of your point?
I get your concept, but what does this have to do against a brewster or a6m when they turn on your 6 from 400 away and you are both going roughly the same speed.
The goal is not to get in the position, but realisitcally, the only thing you can do is extend away in a shallow climb. You can attempt a loaded roll but it's risky if you aren't in a ki/f4u or better turning plane than those.
If you initially have the speed, a rope, hammerhead stall, and E fighting strategies are surely what you want to do. But losing that advantage can be costly and you will be fighting with the brews advantage at this point. It's incredibly difficult to squerm away.
If you are the brew fighter, you need to get them in the looping roll by using the loaded roll technique, because your plane will always be able to turn slower. Once you get a plane in the position, being in the brew you can easily turn inside of them.
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True. But of course best ROC speed in these planes is well below both their corner speed and comfortable speed for a vertical maneuver. So while you are are gaining energy rapidly you aren't very maneuverable until you take the time to convert some of that alt into speed...but I suppose that is one of those things that makes energy fighting kind of tricky compared to relatively more intuitive angles tactics, a thing I'm sure you are aware of.
Players in this game seem to have the idea that E fighting is "easy mode" compared to t'n'b fighting, an odd notion that conflicts with my own flight sim experience as well as Robert Shaw's real world observations.
Shidas point is that no one particular mode is easier than the others but that the best pilots can use and move fluidly between all three expertly to win decisively. Add in the lethality of being a great marksman and you have a top 20 AH pilot of all time.
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E-fighting is most often easiest way to fight because of the way it's usually done... starting from a position of advantage. Most cautious E-fighters will disengage well before the situation is close to even, so they minimize their risk. While there's nothing wrong with this, the avid E-fighter should have a second screen handy so he can browse the forums or watch some pron if he is to remain awake long enough to have a "good" E-fight with another pilot who knows what he's doing.
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E-fighting is most often easiest way to fight because of the way it's usually done... starting from a position of advantage. Most cautious E-fighters will disengage well before the situation is close to even, so they minimize their risk.
But this is not effective in defeating the bogey, and can barely even be called "fighting". I find that actually getting the kill when a turning disadvantage makes E-fighting necessary more difficult and more requiring of gunnery skill than a situation where I have sufficient turning ability to simply settle on the six and stay there.
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Quickest way to gain E is to climb at best climb speed (alt-x).
E = kinetic energy + potential energy
Close, but not quite. "Best climb speed" isn't specific enough, as there are several best climb speeds. You would need to climb, specifically, at Vy (or V sub y).
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But this is not effective in defeating the bogey, and can barely even be called "fighting". I find that actually getting the kill when a turning disadvantage makes E-fighting necessary more difficult and more requiring of gunnery skill than a situation where I have sufficient turning ability to simply settle on the six and stay there.
Yes. You are correct. That's why we're saying it. Slash, pass, run. Re-engage when the guy chasing you is tangled up with another bogey, kill him, claim skillful victory. Rinse, repeat, claim scoring speaks for itself.
There are no particular people doing this...it is now the norm. That is fine, but it's not beating someone. Its just waiting them out. I find little skill in hunting in a fenced yard.
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Today I up my trusty Brewster. I tangled with a few then in comes a LA. Get on his six and he leaves, running away. I roll out, he returns, then he runs. Happened 4 or 5 times. Just before blowing a gasket I begin to ponder. I see a lot of talk on the forum about "run stangs" "spit dweeb" blah blah. Is it really wrong to capitalize on each planes strength? I was turning and burning the Brewster. Was I in the wrong to use its strength?
I know im a bit late, but here are my thoughts.
You were upping the slowest, best turning aircraft in the game. Do not expect anyone to turn with you. The La is also a capable dogfighter but is nowhere as good as the brewster.
Obviously that La had no clue about how to kill a brewster in an energy-fight (not a BnZ!). Its a boring annoyment when an inferior pilot in a superior plane just cannot let you live, but again, noone is forcing you to fly the dumbster.
You have described the "runstang" tactic - this is usually used by inferior pilots who cannot initiate an energy-fight or a BnZ situation, so they have to bore you and themselves to tears. As a totally unproductive tactic, its obviously wrong, building a little vertical separation is the way to properly fight the super-turny birds. The "spitdweeb" is something totally different, usually used by those who are running into a spit pilot that knows what he is doing. There is nothing wrong in being a spitdweeb though.
Generally, using a plane's strenght to kill the opponent is not wrong (in fact, its one main point of the game) until it turns into boring your opponent to death.
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But this is not effective in defeating the bogey, and can barely even be called "fighting". I find that actually getting the kill when a turning disadvantage makes E-fighting necessary more difficult and more requiring of gunnery skill than a situation where I have sufficient turning ability to simply settle on the six and stay there.
lol... yeah. I find that getting a kill is more satisfying than just flying away too. But no, E-fighting is really only hard if your eye for judging E is rusty and/or you have no idea what you're doing. Beyond that, just follow the script.
As Changeup said, the truly great pilots can transition between styles at will. But IMO, E-fighting is the easiest to learn and gain proficiency in.
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Yes. You are correct. That's why we're saying it. Slash, pass, run. Re-engage when the guy chasing you is tangled up with another bogey, kill him, claim skillful victory. Rinse, repeat, claim scoring speaks for itself.
This sounds like you are describing a situation where one ends up being engaged by two. Of course that puts the one at an enormous disadvantage.
OTOH, in situations where roughly equally sized groups of friendlies and bandits, the primary effective tactic probably is cooperating to set the enemies up for "picks" without having the same done to you. And the study of these ACM problems have even more complexities and variations than found in 1v1 "duelling".
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E-fighting is really only hard if your eye for judging E is rusty and/or you have no idea what you're doing. Beyond that, just follow the script.
As Changeup said, the truly great pilots can transition between styles at will. But IMO, E-fighting is the easiest to learn and gain proficiency in.
Three sincere questions:
1. If this is so, then why do I (and so many other virtual pilots) find it much simpler to win fights where plane matchup allows one to simply saddle up through angles tactics?
2. If this is so, why did the guy who literally wrote the book on fighter combat, Robert Shaw, emphasize repeatedly that E-fighting is less generally less intuitive and requires more experience?
3. Finally, if E-fighting actually is easier than turn-fighting, why does anyone in either the virtual sky ever choose a turn-fighter? Humans are not noted for taking the path of MOST resistance in large numbers...
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Today I up my trusty Brewster. I tangled with a few then in comes a LA. Get on his six and he leaves, running away. I roll out, he returns, then he runs. Happened 4 or 5 times. Just before blowing a gasket I begin to ponder. I see a lot of talk on the forum about "run stangs" "spit dweeb" blah blah. Is it really wrong to capitalize on each planes strength? I was turning and burning the Brewster. Was I in the wrong to use its strength?
Random post, no doubt. Just a thought...
You filthy worm! A real man would try to fight the La-La on its strengths instead of out-turning him like some kind of nervous nancy!
People like you show their truly scurrilous character by the way the play in-game. I'll bet you're some kind of criminal, or perhaps a product liability lawyer.
Bottom line: a REAL MAN will line up pretty in my sights and let me shred him with cannon fire. Then I'll send him a snappy salute as he tumbles from the sky.
Fly to strengths... pah!
:D
Of course not, dude... You were doing it, he was doing it. There was true reciprocity there. Lots of people complain about getting killed. Most of it is butt hurt.
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I'm the Uber of hitting trees? Do I win a prize? :D
I am really awesome at running away in my pony. so I get the uber prize :).
semp
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Three sincere questions:
1. If this is so, then why do I (and so many other virtual pilots) find it much simpler to win fights where plane matchup allows one to simply saddle up through angles tactics?
2. If this is so, why did the guy who literally wrote the book on fighter combat, Robert Shaw, emphasize repeatedly that E-fighting is less generally less intuitive and requires more experience?
3. Finally, if E-fighting actually is easier than turn-fighting, why does anyone in either the virtual sky ever choose a turn-fighter? Humans are not noted for taking the path of MOST resistance in large numbers...
1. I am not seeing this. I see exactly what I said. Two passes, lose position, extend and come back when chaser is engaged. I do not see a lot of same plane match ups with two willing participants engaging until it's natural conclusion.
2. The jet age my friend.
3. You'd have to ask them. Why do people buy salads at a steak house? I'm not sure the question is relevant since we're discussing styles.
I more important question is why pilots spending the TIME to learn all of them? Probably because it requires a great deal of time and since AH isn't paying our mortgages, we can't devote that time.
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Three sincere questions:
1. If this is so, then why do I (and so many other virtual pilots) find it much simpler to win fights where plane matchup allows one to simply saddle up through angles tactics?
2. If this is so, why did the guy who literally wrote the book on fighter combat, Robert Shaw, emphasize repeatedly that E-fighting is less generally less intuitive and requires more experience?
3. Finally, if E-fighting actually is easier than turn-fighting, why does anyone in either the virtual sky ever choose a turn-fighter? Humans are not noted for taking the path of MOST resistance in large numbers...
1. I think maybe your definition of 'easy' might be a bit different from what was meant(?) E fighting is the easiest way to survive more, but it has the downside that unless your gunnery is terrifyingly good you don't get as many kills as if you were angle/turnfighting. About the best example I can give is a D9 kept fast is extremely easy to survive in, somewhat more difficult to kill in for an average player.
2. Can't speak for Shaw.
3. Because it's more exciting and requires much less patience, and is easier to kill.
Wiley.
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2. The jet age my friend.
Not true at all. The jet age made energy fighting LESS relevant due to thrust/weight ratios reaching 1.0. Energy fighting was most applicable prior to this point. The lower the thrust/weight ratio, the more relevant energy fighting is. This is basic knowledge for anyone who follows ACM outside of a gaming application.
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Not true at all. The jet age made energy fighting LESS relevant due to thrust/weight ratios reaching 1.0. Energy fighting was most applicable prior to this point. The lower the thrust/weight ratio, the more relevant energy fighting is. This is basic knowledge for anyone who follows ACM outside of a gaming application.
You'd have to ask Shaw. He's the one that emphasized it....in the jet age. According to BoneZ
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Three sincere questions:
1. If this is so, then why do I (and so many other virtual pilots) find it much simpler to win fights where plane matchup allows one to simply saddle up through angles tactics?
Unless you warped into the saddle position, you had to get there somehow. Angles fighting does not just start once you're in the saddle.
2. If this is so, why did the guy who literally wrote the book on fighter combat, Robert Shaw, emphasize repeatedly that E-fighting is less generally less intuitive and requires more experience?
I'd guess because it's critical to judge your opponents energy properly. In real world applications, I could see where this would be more challenging. In this game, with icons and hundreds or thousands of hours playing, it's not that difficult.
3. Finally, if E-fighting actually is easier than turn-fighting, why does anyone in either the virtual sky ever choose a turn-fighter? Humans are not noted for taking the path of MOST resistance in large numbers...
The P-51 is the most flown plane in the game and is a wonderful energy fighter. I'd also submit Skyyr as a reference. He's only been playing this game since November 21, 2013 and is already a master of the energy fight. Now, take an expert energy fighter and throw him into an angles fight in the DA and... well, we've seen film of this.
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You'd have to ask Shaw. He's the one that emphasized it....in the jet age. According to BoneZ
You didn't read. Energy fighting is primarily applicable up to a 1.0 T/W ratio. Shaw wrote his book well before that, at the infancy of the jet age. Shaw prefaced his work with an acknowledgement that it was based on logic, reasoning, and experience. He based energy fighting tactics off of the premise that thrust was a limited commodity and therefore managing it more efficiently would result in an advantage. This was all but negated once T/W went over 1.0, as there is now, literally, an excess of thrust available to the pilot.
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E-fighting can be difficult when you are continuously trying to hit someone and they dodge your attempts. Many people blow all their E after the 3rd or 4th attempt because of impatients and fear of getting picked themselves. This is how the slower plane will win the majority of their fights if they know what they are doing and get the faster guy to play their game. This is how I get most of my kills on higher planes. But I do this on purpose as to trap the faster plane and get him slow and impatient.
A good E fighter will hopefully get the slower plane to climb for the rope. Whereby hammerhead stall for the kill when the slower plane falls over.
The majority of pilots on here don't fly that way, they make one pass and head for the hills. Such a boring way to fly and kills will be far and few between.
E fighters still have to be aggressive in order to keep their opponent on their feet and slow. They need to use the verticle loop to their advantage. That's what makes a good E fighter compared to another BnZ runner type guy.
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lol... yeah. I find that getting a kill is more satisfying than just flying away too. But no, E-fighting is really only hard if your eye for judging E is rusty and/or you have no idea what you're doing. Beyond that, just follow the script.
Keep in mind, the majority of the players that "Energy Fight" are doing it incorrectly.
ack-ack
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Unless you warped into the saddle position, you had to get there somehow. Angles fighting does not just start once you're in the saddle.
Yes, but many encounters start with one plane in a positional advantage. It is always feels much simpler and more intuitive to simply manage speed and pursuit course to latch onto their six in a plane that turns as well or better than it is to try and use speed and the vertical and what have you to get a shot in a plane that turns much worse.
The P-51 is the most flown plane in the game and is a wonderful energy fighter.
I'd say it's not really, and there are many cultural reasons why the most hyped American warbird is the most flown that do not relate to effectiveness. It doesn't have an especially high power to weight ratio, and that and not top speed is the most crucial advantage in the 1v1 energy fight.
If for some reason I *had* to win a 1v1 fight against an opponent flying a SpitXVI in this game, I would rather be flying a SpitXVI of my own with a co-alt/co-e merge, rather than have a P-51 with ANY amount of altitude advantage.
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If you can make the space to do it. It leaves you pretty vulnerable and is a bit predictable. How do you responsd when flying the Brewster when you observe this in an opponent?
This was the original argument/statement I was answering to:
If Im in lets say a 109g14 and there is a Brewster or ki43 or A6m trying to engage me and I don't have E or alt to attempt a rope, I will extend away. (Its really only these 3 planes though). Normally it's fun to try to win these fights, but if you are in a fighter that at least doesn't maneuver as well as a ki84/f4u then you will generally have no chance to win in a TnB fight vs a brew, ki43 or a6m.
Sadly extending away is really your only chance to stay alive vs these 3 types of planes. I typically avoid them at all cost.
With such a massive speed and climb/acceleration advantage which G-14 has over these three planes one can extend out of guns range quickly and easily (beyond 1000 yards). And that is how far horizontally you need to go really. After that, I'd let the speed stabilize for fifteen seconds and start a shallow climb which I would gradually make steeper. From there I'd pull into a climbing spiral, the three planes mentioned wouldn't have any change at keeping up (Brewster has the worst climb rate of these three). If the opponent would try to follow the spiral (he would now be clearly lower) he would be in immediate danger of getting shot down if the G-14 simply suddenly does a half roll and dives on him.
The point of this is that it doesn't matter if the G-14 doesn't initially have "E or alt to attempt a rope" because it can generate E at a much faster rate than the three planes mentioned and thus can easily create a situation where it will have E advantage and therefore the initiative and complete control of the engagement.
What I would do in a Brewster? I would just climb in a shallow angle to keep enough speed for an evasive and wish I'd have several hundred horses more under the hood :) and react to what ever the G-14 would do.
I'm not sure of your point?
I get your concept, but what does this have to do against a brewster or a6m when they turn on your 6 from 400 away and you are both going roughly the same speed.
The goal is not to get in the position, but realisitcally, the only thing you can do is extend away in a shallow climb. You can attempt a loaded roll but it's risky if you aren't in a ki/f4u or better turning plane than those.
If you initially have the speed, a rope, hammerhead stall, and E fighting strategies are surely what you want to do. But losing that advantage can be costly and you will be fighting with the brews advantage at this point. It's incredibly difficult to squerm away.
If you are the brew fighter, you need to get them in the looping roll by using the loaded roll technique, because your plane will always be able to turn slower. Once you get a plane in the position, being in the brew you can easily turn inside of them.
See above.
Close, but not quite. "Best climb speed" isn't specific enough, as there are several best climb speeds. You would need to climb, specifically, at Vy (or V sub y).
My statement is correct and specific enough considering context, this bbs and this thread. Of course climb speed isn't a constant nor did I claimed it to be so, hence the reference to "alt-x" which in AH is an auto pilot mode which gives you the climb speed which gives the best climb rate at any given time (for piston engined aircraft). It should be clear to anyone who's used alt-x that it doesn't keep the ground speed as constant, and since we are on the AH BBS, I expected that to be clear for most.