Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: RufusLeaking on January 14, 2017, 05:44:00 AM
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The scenario for FSO Götterdämmerung - The Fall of Berlin is the very late war in Europe. The Axis had jets, etc. The Allies had overwhelming numbers.
In Frame 2, the Axis had more pilots. How to represent the Allied numbers?
How about letting Allies have multiple lives? :bolt:
This is not for all scenarios. Just for times that, historically, one side had a severe disadvantage in numbers.
This setup has all of the high end German planes. At one to one odds, with the large pool of those who favor German planes, the Allies need a balancing imbalance.
The scoring system might still work as there would be more opportunities for kills by the Axis, along with more tension in the outcome.
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the large pool of those who favor German planes, the Allies need a balancing imbalance.
Hmmmmm. Interesting. Is that actually true? Do more people really favor Luftwaffe Iron in our game? If it is true, why do you think that is so?
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That's Eastern Front for you. Same deal with Late War Pacific setups.
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For a late war FSO, especially in this even timeline, Luft should be 40% strength....and that's still high comparing it to the real war event where Luft was nearly at 10-15% strength. This scenario it's been 50/50.
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For a late war FSO, especially in this even timeline, Luft should be 40% strength....and that's still high comparing it to the real war event where Luft was nearly at 10-15% strength. This scenario it's been 50/50.
Over the years I have focused on making most of my setups 50/50 splits and using the plane set and rules/settings as the equalizers. Recreating 10-15% strength and hordes of Allied aircraft just doesn't make for an enjoyable setup no matter how many jets you got.
I don't think more people favor Luftwaffe Iron in FSO, I think that people favor whatever plane set they believe to have an advantage or they believe will be more enjoyable for them on Fridays.
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I don't know of a PTO setup that shows the Axis pilots having some great advantage... its an ebb and flow... but we too understand your thinking...
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Over the years I have focused on making most of my setups 50/50 splits and using the plane set and rules/settings as the equalizers. Recreating 10-15% strength and hordes of Allied aircraft just doesn't make for an enjoyable setup no matter how many jets you got.
I don't think more people favor Luftwaffe Iron in FSO, I think that people favor whatever plane set they believe to have an advantage or they believe will be more enjoyable for them on Fridays.
I was not pushing for a 10-15% strength in FSO. I said that because historically that was what was on the Luft, it may be higher but will have to look deeper into it. But to be fair it should be 40/60.
I also question the rides on the Luft. Why no G-14, G-6, Ju? This too I am looking at on how much did the Dora, Th, 234 and K-4 fought the Russians in the battle of Berlin?
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I was not pushing for a 10-15% strength in FSO. I said that because historically that was what was on the Luft, it may be higher but will have to look deeper into it. But to be fair it should be 40/60.
I also question the rides on the Luft. Why no G-14, G-6, Ju? This too I am looking at on how much did the Dora, Th, 234 and K-4 fought the Russians in the battle of Berlin?
To be fair, or to be more historic.
To have more fun, or to allow the Allieds an advantage?
Do not lose focus. It is about gameplay, in a historical setting. Not a recreation of history.
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Any given Friday one side or the other can get whooped. It is a result of side turnout, CIC planning & command, execution, and a little bit luck. Who knows what next Friday holds? I do know I will be there to find out! :aok
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To be fair, or to be more historic.
To have more fun, or to allow the Allieds an advantage?
Do not lose focus. It is about gameplay, in a historical setting. Not a recreation of history.
Nobody said anything about allies having the advantage. And there have been setups 40/60 or historical to the best of what FSO CM can do. This scenario should be 40/60.
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The Allies are getting out planned and executed.
The distances are short and its easy for the Axis to sit back and defend while the Allies rush in to attack at frame start and then come late on the offensive. That way the Axis has numbers at the point of contact in all engagements.
If the Allies were patient enough to hold the attacks until T+55 the Axis would be denied this exploit and would be forced to defend while their attacks happen.
Its not rocket science what is happening.
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Nobody said anything about allies having the advantage. And there have been setups 40/60 or historical to the best of what FSO CM can do. This scenario should be 40/60.
40% Axis, 60% Allied, IS an advantage for the allieds.
Why do you think "This scenario should be 40/60" ?
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Maybe the Allied commanders should have capitalized their advantages better. You guys have the La7 - and lots of them. It is easily the best prop plane in this setup. The average pilot has no better means to find success that with that plane. The Yak3 is a nearly perfect plane to fly - only it's gun package limits ability to kill compared to the La7. Our best fighter is the K-4, which required a finer touch of the controls and much better aim to find success. The Dora can't compete against the La or Yak in any way except for top speed at altitude. The Ta 152 is a total dog below 15K and we have only 4 jets. Both require great skill to fly competently in. The only clear advantage the Axis has is the Ar 234. It is a great way to rack up points with it's ability to mount multiple strikes. Also, the Axis must field 20 190A-8's - easy meat for any soviet fighter.
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Luft should be 40% strength....
I was not pushing for a 10-15% strength in FSO.
???
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Because there are other scenarios that was 40/60.
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The Allies are getting out planned and executed.
The distances are short and its easy for the Axis to sit back and defend while the Allies rush in to attack at frame start and then come late on the offensive. That way the Axis has numbers at the point of contact in all engagements.
If the Allies were patient enough to hold the attacks until T+55 the Axis would be denied this exploit and would be forced to defend while their attacks happen.
Its not rocket science what is happening.
It certainly isn't rocket science, I agree.
Given that in these last 2 frames (and the next as it stands) the Axis knows without any doubt that due to fuel burn, that the Allies have to come early and they simply prep for it. Following your reasoning precisely, they then know they only have to wait to wait til H+55 to attack with their now overwhelming force.
How about reduce the fuel burn to .8 and then that removes the ever-tiresome eastern front tactic of the Axis not attacking until H+55?
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There are other reason's to attack as late as possible. In fact, fuel burn was barely a consideration in my orders.
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Maybe the Allied commanders should have capitalized their advantages better. You guys have the La7 - and lots of them. It is easily the best prop plane in this setup. The average pilot has no better means to find success that with that plane. The Yak3 is a nearly perfect plane to fly - only it's gun package limits ability to kill compared to the La7. Our best fighter is the K-4, which required a finer touch of the controls and much better aim to find success. The Dora can't compete against the La or Yak in any way except for top speed at altitude. The Ta 152 is a total dog below 15K and we have only 4 jets. Both require great skill to fly competently in. The only clear advantage the Axis has is the Ar 234. It is a great way to rack up points with it's ability to mount multiple strikes. Also, the Axis must field 20 190A-8's - easy meat for any soviet fighter.
Please do not take this the wrong way, but perhaps you and the Allied Cic from frame 2 should switch roles in frame 3. His squad goes Axis, yours goes Allied. You plan the frame, fly the frame, and you all see if it is in fact a planning issue, or perhaps something deeper.
Just a thought from the outside looking in.
:salute
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Maybe the Allied commanders should have capitalized their advantages better. You guys have the La7 - and lots of them. It is easily the best prop plane in this setup. The average pilot has no better means to find success that with that plane. The Yak3 is a nearly perfect plane to fly - only it's gun package limits ability to kill compared to the La7. Our best fighter is the K-4, which required a finer touch of the controls and much better aim to find success. The Dora can't compete against the La or Yak in any way except for top speed at altitude. The Ta 152 is a total dog below 15K and we have only 4 jets. Both require great skill to fly competently in. The only clear advantage the Axis has is the Ar 234. It is a great way to rack up points with it's ability to mount multiple strikes. Also, the Axis must field 20 190A-8's - easy meat for any soviet fighter.
La-7 can not catch a 262 or 234. Even if they had alt and speed.
From what my squad have witness, k-4, 152 and Dora out ran the La. and you worried about how they preformed below 15k, try fighting the La above 15k. They can't do well, I know this because I face off against a La-7 many time while in the P-47D-25.....and won.
I don't think it wasCiC planning, I believe the set up favors more on the axis and question, since FSO is historic base setup, if K-4, Dora's, 152, 234 saw action on defesive against the Russians in the battle of Berlin. With the numbers I see on the rides I see a red flag on the whole set-up.
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Because there are other scenarios that was 40/60.
I don't get it. Your first post said that the setup should give the Allies a 10%+ advantage, then your next post says you were not pushing for a 10% advantage.
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La-7 can not catch a 262 or 234. Even if they had alt and speed.
From what my squad have witness, k-4, 152 and Dora out ran the La. and you worried about how they preformed below 15k, try fighting the La above 15k. They can't do well, I know this because I face off against a La-7 many time while in the P-47D-25.....and won.
I don't think it wasCiC planning, I believe the set up favors more on the axis and question, since FSO is historic base setup, if K-4, Dora's, 152, 234 saw action on defesive against the Russians in the battle of Berlin. With the numbers I see on the rides I see a red flag on the whole set-up.
14 total kills for the 262's over the 2 frames. You're losing to the meat and potatoes of the Luftwaffe not the gravy.
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double post
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I don't get it. Your first post said that the setup should give the Allies a 10%+ advantage, then your next post says you were not pushing for a 10% advantage.
Yes, as I look into it more it dose favor the axis at the same time, historically, allies out numbers the luft by 44-45. Thus this should be a 40/60 set up.
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And why isn't anybody challaegen me on my questionable planes the luft has in compare to real battle?
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And why isn't anybody challaegen me on my questionable planes the luft has in compare to real battle?
Questionable? The only thing in question here is your grasp on history.
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Questionable? The only thing in question here is your grasp on history.
So you are saying that I am wrong?
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Hey wasn't last month supposedly stacked in the Allies favor? :headscratch: I stand by my earlier comment. Any given Friday...
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So you are saying that I am wrong?
That's exactly what I'm saying. The Luftwaffe planes in this setup are exactly what was used in May of '45. Sure, there were G-14's as well, but I don't see you guys using any P-39's or Il-2's either.
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There are other reason's to attack as late as possible. In fact, fuel burn was barely a consideration in my orders.
Cool and no problems at all from me on that.
It takes about about 15-20 mins to get the Arados up to a useful height and ...........well I don't know what the other considerations would be other than direction of approach? There's always something that chews up time.
The suggestion that the Allies should avoid fighting for the first hour is bit that has brought me to post. If Axis aren't worrying about fuel burn for the Allied and aren't trying to avoid fighting for an hour, so that they don't have to fight at the hour, because the defenders are all landing for fuel, then what we have is a perception problem.
Now given that thought, I'm sure you will fully support the fuel burn rate change. Its impact is almost zero beyond simple perception.
Thanks.
I'm still a bit mystified by the original poster's thought that the Allied side should delay their attacks til the H+55 timeframe as well? At that point we would have opposing groups less than 50 miles apart flying circles avoiding combat for an hour in FSO. Let's advance on that and go for the full 2 hours!
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That's exactly what I'm saying. The Luftwaffe planes in this setup are exactly what was used in May of '45. Sure, there were G-14's as well, but I don't see you guys using any P-39's or Il-2's either.
Back it up. Show me your sources and prove me wrong. I only question it because I am challenging if it is historically correct.
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Dantoo, I would not oppose a fuel burn change at all.
I'll elaborate further on my timing considerations after frame 3.
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Back it up. Show me your sources and prove me wrong. I only question it because I am challenging if it is historically correct.
On what grounds are you questioning the planeset? You exhibit no rational thought. This event represents the last days of the war in Europe. There is no possible way that the planes here are being used too early, which is what you are suggesting by questioning the planeset.
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Mate I don't doubt for a moment you have your reasons. I KNOW that you like to fight. Me too!
I'm just frustrated that there seems to be an element of avoiding combat for no particular worthwhile tactical reason being proposed as a salve for a problem that doesn't need it.
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On what grounds are you questioning the planeset? You exhibit no rational thought. This event represents the last days of the war in Europe. There is no possible way that the planes here are being used too early, which is what you are suggesting by questioning the planeset.
It is my right to question it and search for it if I am right or wrong. Now back up your sources to show that I am wrong.
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Yes, as I look into it more it dose favor the axis at the same time, historically, allies out numbers the luft by 44-45. Thus this should be a 40/60 set up.
So the Allies get a 40 pilot advantage? Not necessarily a bad thing, I didn't have much to shoot at.
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So the Allies get a 40 pilot advantage? Not necessarily a bad thing, I didn't have much to shoot at.
Thank you. You just support my questionable set up.
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Mate I don't doubt for a moment you have your reasons. I KNOW that you like to fight. Me too!
I'm just frustrated that there seems to be an element of avoiding combat for no particular worthwhile tactical reason being proposed as a salve for a problem that doesn't need it.
I agree with a your frustration towards the trend of timid approaches to making orders. Thankfully the relative proximity of the bases makes it possible for those looking for battle to find it on their own initiative regardless if the CiC tries playing the points saving game.
:salute
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It is my right to question it and search for it if I am right or wrong. Now back up your sources to show that I am wrong.
What exactly are you looking for? Your posts are less a question and more like the ramblings of an imbecile.
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What exactly are you looking for? Your posts are less a question and more like the ramblings of an imbecile.
And you can back anything too. My question still stands.
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Perhaps if you formed your thoughts into a coherent sentence in the form of a question, I could attempt to answer it for you.
I'll ask again. What exactly about the planeset are you questioning?
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Perhaps if you formed your thoughts into a coherent sentence in the form of a question, I could attempt to answer it for you.
I'll ask again. What exactly about the planeset are you questioning?
On the timeline of the battle of Berlin, did the Russians face against K-4, Dora's, Th-154 and Ar-234?
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Thank you. You just support my questionable set up.
I suppose you didn't get the tongue-in-cheek bit...not sure a 40/60 would help much. There have been numerous 45/55 setups. Eastern Front is Eastern Front.
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On the timeline of the battle of Berlin, did the Russians face against K-4, Dora's, Th-154 and Ar-234?
From the Jg 26 war diary.
(http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff252/DropkickYankees/Jg%2026%20over%20Berlin_zpsdxez6acr.png~original) (http://s241.photobucket.com/user/DropkickYankees/media/Jg%2026%20over%20Berlin_zpsdxez6acr.png.html)
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" .. the copy of Loos' Flugbuch that I have shows clearly that he had four victories in his Ta 152 – if they are correct, who knows. Nevertheless they appear to have been confirmed by the Geschwader-Adjutant on 07.05.1945. There must be gaps in his Flugbuch – I find it strange that he start into a combat flight with a completely new machine, the Ta 152, without any training-flight before? Not even a short “Platzrunde” took place when he took off in “green 3” on 20.04.1945. The flights with victories were on 24., 25. and 30.04.1945. On 24.04. he claimed two Laag 9 (near Berlin), on 25.04 one Laag 9 (near Nauen) and on 30.04. one Laag 9 (near Berlin) again. All flights took place from Neustadt-Gleve.."
from here.
http://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2016/04/latest-kagero-monograph-focke-wulf-ta.html
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Must I continue, or are you satisfied that there was indeed combat in the Berlin area?
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:aok, now was that so dam hard to do instead acting like donut insulting me? Thank you but I do not see anything on the K-4 or 234.
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:aok, now was that so dam hard to do instead acting like donut insulting me? Thank you but I do not see anything on the K-4 or 234.
Nah, forget it. Prove that they weren't there. I'm not your fracking errand boy. Why don't you do some research on your own and learn something.
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Nah, forget it. Prove that they weren't there. I'm not your fracking errand boy. Why don't you do some research on your own and learn something.
I am researching it. Come up to nothing so far.
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While I am not specifically opposed to changing the fuel burn, I still think the real issue is one of execution.
The Allies don't have to blast off at T+0 and fly around in circles at full throttle and make it easy for the Axis to come in at T+55.
I ordered my La-7's to sit on the runway a full 10 minutes with engines off and after takeoff used fuel conservation techniques once airborne.
Another method is to reposition to a base behind the front, refuel and wait/head back to the defense area.
But every frame I see a mad rush to get airborne when it doesn't make sense from a fuel conservation standpoint.
I would also love to see some 100 mile tower only radar in FSO so maybe the fight would move away from designated targets a bit. And it gives the dead guys something interesting to do, playing AWACS for his pals.
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On the timeline of the battle of Berlin, did the Russians face against K-4, Dora's, Th-154 and Ar-234?
In reality yes, but for the LW planes were poorly maintained (some suffered late war manufacturing defects), fuel was tight, a lot of the good LW pilots were gone - and the western front was just as close. Very hard stuff to emulate in a game.
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In reality yes, but for the LW planes were poorly maintained (some suffered late war manufacturing defects), fuel was tight, a lot of the good LW pilots were gone - and the western front was just as close. Very hard stuff to emulate in a game.
That's great but you need to back that up. All of this, "for the LW planes were poorly maintained (some suffered late war manufacturing defects), fuel was tight, a lot of the good LW pilots were gone - and the western front was just as close." I knew but what variants of 190 and 109. As for the 234 I am seeing nothing yet. Here is my sources so far:
By The last year of the Luftwaffe" by A.Price
(http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp20/skbluestem/IMG_0060_zpsgqaijpof.png)
(http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp20/skbluestem/IMG_0061_zpskqdibyzt.png)
(http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp20/skbluestem/IMG_0062_zps9qwrl1z5.png)
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Hmmmmm. Interesting. Is that actually true? Do more people really favor Luftwaffe Iron in our game? If it is true, why do you think that is so?
My sarcasm detection is uneven.
Is a guy in JG11 questioning that there is a significant number of AH flyers that fly 109s and 190s?
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Over the years I have focused on making most of my setups 50/50 splits and using the plane set and rules/settings as the equalizers. Recreating 10-15% strength and hordes of Allied aircraft just doesn't make for an enjoyable setup no matter how many jets you got.
I don't think more people favor Luftwaffe Iron in FSO, I think that people favor whatever plane set they believe to have an advantage or they believe will be more enjoyable for them on Fridays.
Another intractable issue is the reduced training of replacement Axis pilots in the late war. Even if there was a way to flood one side with noobs, it would not be fun for one side.
My OP was an start of a discussion on how to give a feeling of desperation on the Axis side, as was the case in the fighting around the fall of Berlin.
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I'm still a bit mystified by the original poster's thought that the Allied side should delay their attacks til the H+55 timeframe as well? At that point we would have opposing groups less than 50 miles apart flying circles avoiding combat for an hour in FSO. Let's advance on that and go for the full 2 hours!
Re-read the OP. It was about creating more suspense as to the outcome by letting Allies have multiple lives.
I grew out of my experience in finding six red guys on my lone plane. It was certainly my fault. I could have landed. (yawn.) It just didn't feel right. In the time frame of the scenario, the Axis should have the feeling of being outnumbered. It is just a discussion. I have had bad ideas before.
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So the Allies get a 40 pilot advantage? Not necessarily a bad thing, I didn't have much to shoot at.
Your overconfidence aside, this is exactly what I was thinking with the multiple lives concept. A wave of fresh Russians appearing on the horizon at T+60 would solve your problem.
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The scenario for FSO Götterdämmerung - The Fall of Berlin is the very late war in Europe. The Axis had jets, etc. The Allies had overwhelming numbers.
In Frame 2, the Axis had more pilots. How to represent the Allied numbers?
How about letting Allies have multiple lives? :bolt:
This is not for all scenarios. Just for times that, historically, one side had a severe disadvantage in numbers.
This setup has all of the high end German planes. At one to one odds, with the large pool of those who favor German planes, the Allies need a balancing imbalance.
The scoring system might still work as there would be more opportunities for kills by the Axis, along with more tension in the outcome.
I don't know what the number of those who favor the Axis rides in game is, but I know what the numbers are in FSO of those who basically fly Axis only, with emphasis on German only.
I've heard it makes no difference, I've flat out been told that. However, unlike most it seems, I don't buy into it at all. The experience plays into it..... There is NO argument that can be made. Those who try to argue it are only kidding themselves in the end.
There is nothing that can be done about it now, it simply is what it is, and it's out of our control.
When your the Allied Cic it is one of the first and foremost issues you must try to plan around is that, your going up against the best the game has to offer in their respective rides on the Axis side. As an Allied Cic you typically do not have that luxury available. You may have a squad or 2 that can fill that role, but typically you are putting squads in air frames they don't have a lot of experience in, sure some individuals are top notch in some rides. But when it comes to whole squads, and numerous ones at that, Allies will rarely if ever match up to some of the Axis only squads.
:salute
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La-7 can not catch a 262 or 234. Even if they had alt and speed.
From what my squad have witness, k-4, 152 and Dora out ran the La. and you worried about how they preformed below 15k, try fighting the La above 15k.
:rofl And... from what MY squad witnessed in AR234s, the Russian rides can do quite well against it, check the logs. Oh, and we were at 20K so don't think we were anywhere near your best performance altitudes. When bombers have an alt cap the defending fighters will be able to catch them by being above.
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:rofl And... from what MY squad witnessed in AR234s, the Russian rides can do quite well against it, check the logs. Oh, and we were at 20K so don't think we were anywhere near your best performance altitudes. When bombers have an alt cap the defending fighters will be able to catch them by being above.
We did a pretty good job engaging the 234s at A80 in Frame 2, shot several down and smoked others. Had we scouted the NW of A80, we would have faired even better.
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:rofl And... from what MY squad witnessed in AR234s, the Russian rides can do quite well against it, check the logs. Oh, and we were at 20K so don't think we were anywhere near your best performance altitudes. When bombers have an alt cap the defending fighters will be able to catch them by being above.
Did they try evasive move by diving slightly and pulling away or stay level flight?
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Did they try evasive move by diving slightly and pulling away or stay level flight?
Uh... yeah :rolleyes:. Are you just looking at the flat speed numbers or what? The La7s and Yaks diving in from above were easily keeping up with us and scoring hits at d200-d600. In a bomber you can "evasive move" all you want but if the enemy bounces you and can sit behind you with little to fear from manned guns, it's not going to go well.
So to answer your question, I believe everyone twitched, jinked, dove, etc. in order to survive, but once an engine is oiled, a 234 is meat. I'm just hoping I forced a few Allies to land in order to take on more ammo :rofl
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Uh... yeah :rolleyes:. Are you just looking at the flat speed numbers or what? The La7s and Yaks diving in from above were easily keeping up with us and scoring hits at d200-d600. In a bomber you can "evasive move" all you want but if the enemy bounces you and can sit behind you with little to fear from manned guns, it's not going to go well.
So to answer your question, I believe everyone twitched, jinked, dove, etc. in order to survive, but once an engine is oiled, a 234 is meat. I'm just hoping I forced a few Allies to land in order to take on more ammo :rofl
Situation awareness. The 234 people failed to check their six, low and high, to allowed them self get shot down. You can easy dive away from a La7 and Yak in a 234.
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i think the allies should have had far more bombers in this scenario....have say 10-15 more allied players in bombers would represent 30-45 allied aircraft as opposed to 10-15...would this satisfy everybody for the 40/60 gameplay and still keep it 50/50?
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Situation awareness. The 234 people failed to check their six, low and high, to allowed them self get shot down. You can easy dive away from a La7 and Yak in a 234.
Of course... I should have realized it was going to be all our fault. :rock I guess the view of planes diving on my six was limited by the bomb sight, probably a design flaw.
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Alpo, it's our fault when they win, but especially when they lose. :devil
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Of course... I should have realized it was going to be all our fault. :rock I guess the view of planes diving on my six was limited by the bomb sight, probably a design flaw.
3k icon is more than enough distance for you to make that move. Now I might have missed that part that you are in bomb sight....or you failed to tell me that part. Never less that is why you got caught.
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i look at things like this. we are not recreating history, we're making our own. if the allies cant keep up, they need to plan better,
learn from their mistakes, or ask for help from guys that know the game pretty good. I think most of us CO's that CIC are willing to help
people. obviously sides are a problem, but general information isn't a plan give away.
I think guys that fly allies all the time, like the planes better. that's nice. most axis that fly axis, do so for the same reasons.
find the strengths and weakness's of the planes and use them to your advantage.
getting on here and squawking about numbers doesn't help. get with someone and figure out a different way to kill red guys is the answer.
use your resources. ive gotten calls from CIC's to ask questions and I answer them as best I can. call one of the other CiC's on the allied side
and ask them for advice or information. use your emails( make sure you email the right side hehehe) to communicate. that's the key to winning.
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On paper this event looks pretty good. Tactically, however, it's a little more difficult from an Allied perspective. As a matter of practice it seems the balance is off. For some of the Axis to just say they're simply better at planning and execution is simply not true.
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On paper this event looks pretty good. Tactically, however, it's a little more difficult from an Allied perspective. As a matter of practice it seems the balance is off. For some of the Axis to just say they're simply better at planning and execution is simply not true.
Things could have been done differently, like not send in Tu2's practically NOE like lambs to the slaughter. The Axis have the advantage in this setup due to good rides and good pilots, with the latter being the case every setup. But just because there is a clear advantage doesn't mean it isn't winnable.
This post comes up during/after the majority of Eastern Front events. Maybe the Ju88s from 1941 will be more "fair" for the La7 and Yak 3s from 1944.
Not much foul cry when the Axis get waxed in Pacific setups though.
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Things could have been done differently, like not send in Tu2's practically NOE like lambs to the slaughter. The Axis have the advantage in this setup due to good rides and good pilots, with the latter being the case every setup. But just because there is a clear advantage doesn't mean it isn't winnable.
This post comes up during/after the majority of Eastern Front events. Maybe the Ju88s from 1941 will be more "fair" for the La7 and Yak 3s from 1944.
Not much foul cry when the Axis get waxed in Pacific setups though.
Looks like axis held up good on this even.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,311543.msg4036589.html#msg4036589 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,311543.msg4036589.html#msg4036589)
Minor victory for allies.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,197296.msg2304705.html#msg2304705 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,197296.msg2304705.html#msg2304705)
Operation August Storm...only farm 1 result...axis victory.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,258593.msg3205385.html#msg3205385 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,258593.msg3205385.html#msg3205385)
No results on this.
http://ahevents.net/index.php/fso-setups/37-pacific-theatre/291-bangkok-or-bust-1945 (http://ahevents.net/index.php/fso-setups/37-pacific-theatre/291-bangkok-or-bust-1945)
Operation Iceburg Typhoon of steel....obvious a allied victory.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,363869.msg4839811.html#msg4839811 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,363869.msg4839811.html#msg4839811)
Axis victory
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,245247.msg2998298.html#msg2998298 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,245247.msg2998298.html#msg2998298)
Dragonslayers: Superfortresses over Japan 1945 -2012
This was the first time B-29 was used....allied major victory
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,343165.msg4529281.html#msg4529281 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,343165.msg4529281.html#msg4529281)
Dragonslayers: Superfortresses over Japan 1945 - 2014
Opposite result after some much discussion on B-29 having high alt that Japs could not preformed well. Axis victory.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,366869.msg4885258.html#msg4885258 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,366869.msg4885258.html#msg4885258)
These are the late PTO results that I can get so far. Only two showed allies had a huge victory, one of them was the first time using the B-29 and if I am not mistaking there was a lot of concerns that the B-29s were to high. So the next set up CM low alt on them with the results of axis victory.
Just for interest here was the results the last time we had Gotterdamburg event. Slight different rides on the allies but overall results was close.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,305086.msg3925041.html#msg3925041 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,305086.msg3925041.html#msg3925041)
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And for those who fear the 262.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,253672.30.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,253672.30.html)
I remember this well.
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Not much foul cry when the Axis get waxed in Pacific setups though.
Actually, there was.
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Well one of you nailed Vulcan. He was like.. Hey! These guys have tail guns! Lol
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LOL... I think that was Colt. He shouts, "I can't believe it, I just shot down two!"
I have an idea for a balanced scenario for Oaktree... one side captures an entire stockpile of enemy planes and decides to use them. Oh, and to make sure it looks like a legitimate missions coming in... the CiC decides to use EXACTLY the same number as the other side, having more numbers would cause warnings to go off or something. P51s, Jugs, and B17s versus P51s, Jugs, and B17s... balance baby :devil
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LOL... I think that was Colt. He shouts, "I can't believe it, I just shot down two!"
I have an idea for a balanced scenario for Oaktree... one side captures an entire stockpile of enemy planes and decides to use them. Oh, and to make sure it looks like a legitimate missions coming in... the CiC decides to use EXACTLY the same number as the other side, having more numbers would cause warnings to go off or something. P51s, Jugs, and B17s versus P51s, Jugs, and B17s... balance baby :devil
I never cried about both sides not being balanced.
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Actually, there was.
IDK, the only time axis brought up about setup was the first time we used the B-29. There was no max alt, I believe, for the B-29s. Axis had a hell of a time trying to fight over 30k...especially against P-47N. What the CMs did the next time we had the same scenario was established max alt on the B-29 to 20k or 25k. The result was axis victory.
But most of the late war PTO was not won by one side. Surprisingly some of them was won by allies or small victory. This whole mention about late war rides on axis side and people only join in on dose not support with a lot of the late war scenarios result. That's just from what I am observing so far.
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IDK, the only time axis brought up about setup was the first time we used the B-29. There was no max alt, I believe, for the B-29s. Axis had a hell of a time trying to fight over 30k...especially against P-47N. What the CMs did the next time we had the same scenario was established max alt on the B-29 to 20k or 25k. The result was axis victory.
But most of the late war PTO was not won by one side. Surprisingly some of them was won by allies or small victory. This whole mention about late war rides on axis side and people only join in on dose not support with a lot of the late war scenarios result. That's just from what I am observing so far.
Hello Oaktree,
Flown near you for years Sir. I do want you to know that Pigs are not loyal to Axis or Allies in FSO, it's just where we are assigned for this camp. If the Pigs were assigned Allies this past camp then I guarantee you we would be planning on putting some Luftwaffe pelts on the wall. Results of the last two frames has nothing to do with devotees to a side, or the write-up. CO's were aware of what they were getting their squads into before we started. If you don't like the setup then gripe at your CO, he should have said something. I go in every frame with the intent to win and I stick to my original comments that any given Friday is decided by turnout, CIC planning command and control, and the performance of squadrons on a each side. The Allies have the opportunity to win Frame 3 unless they give up before it starts. :aok
See you up there,
Way
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I was in deep thought over lunch about the heated debate of this scenario and I think I know why a lot of concerns over everything that has been brought up. It is the number of people that took part.
Hear me out on this. The last time FSO ran Götterdämmerung was in 2011. The outcome was axis victory but not one sided victory from frame to frame. However, two important facts; there was approximant over 375 player combined and nobody express their concerns over the set-up. Here is the link to show that.
The current Götterdämmerung has approximant 215 combine players. It is a challenge for the CiC to make a plan when you only have 100 or so people. Trying to balance on who CAP, escort and bomber at the same time meeting the require min/max of rides, bases to defend and attack. There just not enough breathing room. With the 2011 setup the CiC had around 190 players give enough breathing room to plan out the event.
With such low numbers one squad would be faced against an overwhelming number of cons. I been in that situation on both ends and I understand the frustration. And I am sure many of you been in similar situation like that. It’s just not as fun as it used to be when we have large number of players.
With that, I am stepping back on my concerned over the set-up and push on trying to get numbers back up in FSO. How many of you been flying FSO going back 2008. We have over 500 people. It was a blast and not a duel moment. How many of you would want that again? I certainly do.
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With that, I am stepping back on my concerned over the set-up and push on trying to get numbers back up in FSO. How many of you been flying FSO going back 2008. We have over 500 people. It was a blast and not a duel moment. How many of you would want that again? I certainly do.
:cheers:
Götterdämmerung 2011 was my first ever FSO and I've been an addict ever since.
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Also in 2008 squad average size was in the 15-20 range whereas today that is a mega squad in FSO. Those FSOs were white knuckle for the full two hours.
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While I am not specifically opposed to changing the fuel burn, I still think the real issue is one of execution.
The Allies don't have to blast off at T+0 and fly around in circles at full throttle and make it easy for the Axis to come in at T+55.
I ordered my La-7's to sit on the runway a full 10 minutes with engines off and after takeoff used fuel conservation techniques once airborne.
Another method is to reposition to a base behind the front, refuel and wait/head back to the defense area.
But every frame I see a mad rush to get airborne when it doesn't make sense from a fuel conservation standpoint.
I would also love to see some 100 mile tower only radar in FSO so maybe the fight would move away from designated targets a bit. And it gives the dead guys something interesting to do, playing AWACS for his pals.
Dawger while you were ordering those planes to sit on the runway for 10 minutes...had you taken full account of your own pre-planning or more essentially, the pre-planning of your CIC? It might not make sense from a fuel conversation standpoint but sure as heck it makes sense from a "defending the assets" standpoint.
In the 2nd frame (it was worse in the 1st) a FW190-A8 could have taken off at A4 and dropped a bomb at A13 just 8 minutes later! The A8 is the Axis' slowest ride. In both frames combat could have started at H+4. Yes, I did fly it offline as I'm sure all COs do every week when receiving their orders.
I have pushing for the fuel burn change not because I think that fuel can't be managed in flight effectively, but because there is a "perception" that the VVS planes simply can't make it through an hour with sufficient fuel to fight. That perception clearly extends across both sides in this FSO. It hurts both sides as well as the event.
A simple change in the setup and we can remove the silly perception and get back to jousting in the arena rather than have two sides 30 miles apart avoiding combat for an hour.
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I don't think the problem is the fuel burn. To be honest, I prefer to have some limitations. Range was a real problem in the war and it should be in FSO as well. The primary imbalance occurs with the bombers IMO. The Axis have a jet bomber that can make multiple passes without the need of escorts which frees up a large amount of Luft fighter aircraft to simply become hunters who can loiter until the Russian aircraft have to refuel. This effectively lets the Luftwaffe stack up the defense or release a large number of squads to simply destroy enemy wherever they are found. As a matter of fact, the Axis don't have to field a single bomber but the Allies have to devote a minimum of 12. That, in and of itself, stacks the deck against the Allies.
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Dawger while you were ordering those planes to sit on the runway for 10 minutes...had you taken full account of your own pre-planning or more essentially, the pre-planning of your CIC? It might not make sense from a fuel conversation standpoint but sure as heck it makes sense from a "defending the assets" standpoint.
In the 2nd frame (it was worse in the 1st) a FW190-A8 could have taken off at A4 and dropped a bomb at A13 just 8 minutes later! The A8 is the Axis' slowest ride. In both frames combat could have started at H+4. Yes, I did fly it offline as I'm sure all COs do every week when receiving their orders.
I have pushing for the fuel burn change not because I think that fuel can't be managed in flight effectively, but because there is a "perception" that the VVS planes simply can't make it through an hour with sufficient fuel to fight. That perception clearly extends across both sides in this FSO. It hurts both sides as well as the event.
A simple change in the setup and we can remove the silly perception and get back to jousting in the arena rather than have two sides 30 miles apart avoiding combat for an hour.
Its pretty easy to look at the map and calculate the earliest possible arrival for an enemy strike. You don't actually need to fly it.
So, yes, I considered the possibility that the Axis could try to strike fast and then dismissed it. It would be a poor strategy for them to employ since they know the predilection for immediate takeoff in FSO in general and the reward for an early strike is minimal when compared to the very real possibility of trapping the bulk of the Allied defense on the refuel pad at T+55.
You plan for what is most likely and counter it or you are doomed to be weak everywhere, as the Allies are this series.
We are getting our butts kicked because we deserve it.
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As a matter of fact, the Axis don't have to field a single bomber but the Allies have to devote a minimum of 12.
I don't really think a minimum was necessary for the 234 because it would be extremely difficult for the Axis to bomb anything of decent hardness if they didn't use bombers. The same argument can be had for the 262s, why would a minimum be necessary for them? A side gets 262s and decides not to use them? LOL.
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Ok. So from what I gleaned from the discussion, for Frame 3 I build the arena so that the entire Allied force gets B-29's. I set town hardness to .01 to simulate low-yield nukes. The entire Axis force gets 262's and we set the game clock to 02:05 am (just after the bars close). We will call it: GOTDAMMITTHATWASLOUD! :police:
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+1
Ok. So from what I gleaned from the discussion, for Frame 3 I build the arena so that the entire Allied force gets B-29's. I set town hardness to .01 to simulate low-yield nukes. The entire Axis force gets 262's and we set the game clock to 02:05 am (just after the bars close). We will call it: GOTDAMMITTHATWASLOUD! :police:
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+1
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Ok. So from what I gleaned from the discussion, for Frame 3 I build the arena so that the entire Allied force gets B-29's. I set town hardness to .01 to simulate low-yield nukes. The entire Axis force gets 262's and we set the game clock to 02:05 am (just after the bars close). We will call it: GOTDAMMITTHATWASLOUD! :police:
:rofl :aok very nice brother :rock
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Ok. So from what I gleaned from the discussion, for Frame 3 I build the arena so that the entire Allied force gets B-29's. I set town hardness to .01 to simulate low-yield nukes. The entire Axis force gets 262's and we set the game clock to 02:05 am (just after the bars close). We will call it: GOTDAMMITTHATWASLOUD! :police:
Now he gets it. :aok
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Situation awareness. The 234 people failed to check their six, low and high, to allowed them self get shot down. You can easy dive away from a La7 and Yak in a 234.
I was in 234's with the AK's. I was in the bombsite as the La's appeared, so didn't see them immediately as they dropped in on us. Following my drop, I wasted a few precious moments using pan-view to try to see my bomb impacts, instead of looking for cons like I should have (yep, I was being a danged tourist!). When the first rounds whizzed past, I put my nose down and held down the trigger for the tail-guns and was out of range in a handful of seconds. One of my drones had an engine hit with oil leak, but the engine remained operational long enough to get me clear. Even with the 234's speed advantage in the dive, it's not unreasonable to have some losses. It's just a question of geometry. The La's happened to be on the correct side of the bomb-run, where the buffs were committed to their bomb runs. Good scenario, and a load of fun. My only complaint is that my drones (even the undamaged one) disappeared while I re-armed for my second strike, so it was a single-plane bomb run (still took a FH down; no doubt it was softened up by another player). Hope to make it this Friday for the frame three. :salute
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That pretty much illustrates my point about where this event is imbalanced. Even in this ideal situation, there is little chance of dealing any significant losses to 234s. So Axis are getting, what amounts to, free hangar kills and an increase in fighter numbers for the Axis simply because there is no need to even attempt an escort.
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LilMak, what you said makes perfect sense. But the same logic applies to the Allies. Because there is little chance of stopping the Ar 234's, the Allies could have, and probably should have, abandoned any attempt to kill them. It would have been smart to only post the bare minimum of pilots to defending against jabo 190's and stacking the offense otherwise with LA7's. If the Allies made an effort to gain localized numerical superiority before engaging with the Axis, the allies probably would have seen some success.
Here is a general break down of my battleplan for Frame 2.
Objectives:
1. Target hangars and town at A80 with all 12 sets of Ar 234's. Target chosen for this mission based on having the higher number of hangars and the likelihood of minimal defense. 8 190A-8's would scout the NW approaches to A2 before commencing attack at A80. Ar 234's would rearm at A5 and then mount strikes against the hangars at A13.
2. Use 12 FW190A-8's to attack A13 town at T+50-55. 190's would loiter on either side of Berlin and act as scouts until T+45 before turning to target. Strike delay was selected in order to contain any defending fighters over A13 as to prevent them from rearming and assisting their egressing attack force before we could eliminate it.
3. All other fighters are dedicated to mounting defense. 262 will serve as long range scouts with the purpose of finding every Tu-2 and directing the other fighters to them.
4. Concentrate all aircraft on A13 after T+60 to mop-up remaining Allied fighters and ground targets.
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Devil your suggested plan is basically what the Allied CICs gave us. It never worked and couldn't.
Frame 3 differed hardly at all from the other 2. Defenders continually harassed by 262s and Ta152s that couldn't be brought to battle. Any attempt to either remain on ground or refuel nearby was fraught. This meant driving about at throttle settings way below what was needed to maintain energy to interdict anything.
Attackers needed to get to their targets early for the reasons you point out + they would only ever have the fuel to recover to a base that was on the front line knowing that those bases were going to capped from 10 mins in.
By the time the main attack started in frame 3, I was rearming at the only base that wasn't constantly flashing. I had scouted
I didn't give a damn by that time as it was clear the designer was determined to enforce a fatal flaw that is only exposed where the rules of the event require "a credible force" to be defending for the full first hour, and then crippling the tools provided to do it with.
Just to emphasise the point about not intercepting the ARs. In frame 1 they were merely watched by the defenders as they tore the base apart. It was fun flying circles until T+58 with the field burning below. The main attack didn't hit the field until about T+61 by which time it was all over.
Frame 2 was marginally different in that the ARs came in higher and as a group. This allowed for some of them to be intercepted as they were at least a legit target at that point.
Frame 3 was rinse and repeat frame 1.
Nobody on any Allied orders issued that I saw, nor in discussions on game day that witnessed, put any effort into intercepting ARs. They were an opportunity target at best and yes quite a few took that opportunity when it was served. It wasn't a central point in any plan though.
FWIW I died 3 times. I hit a tree, the ground, and lastly the ground and then a tree.
Rgds.
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we were in JG88's and got ripped to shreds in no time over the target.... I was very upset about it. but we did manage to get bombs out.
i kinda felt bad for the allies, cause they shot me up and i never returned fire. oh well, theres always next month!