Post by: Zeta on December 16, 2019, 05:58:09 PM
I love this game. Been here since the beginning. Including the old game on AOL. I want this to thrive again....and it's killin' me. Every single cat on this game is a brother to me....and that's not the Jameson talking.
Post by: Vraciu on December 16, 2019, 06:10:18 PM
Post by: potsNpans on December 16, 2019, 06:53:05 PM
Post by: TequilaChaser on December 16, 2019, 06:58:03 PM
My rant, last 3 encounters 1 ping radiators(850yds+)...fighting 1, 4 more drop in= no fun...I'll wait for the weekend if there's more on.
Come fly in the AvA tonight..... Monday Night Madness is just about to start in 3 minutes
Post by: toddbobe on December 16, 2019, 10:46:43 PM
Todd
Post by: whiteman on December 16, 2019, 10:49:39 PM
Post by: Shuffler on December 16, 2019, 11:09:43 PM
Post by: guncrasher on December 17, 2019, 01:19:59 AM
semp
Post by: CptTrips on December 17, 2019, 09:06:00 AM
anybody noticed we had over 200 players loggin in last friday during fso? they were split between fso and ma. yeah I know back in the day we had a billion.
That tells me there is a large percentage of Hitech's customers that no longer bother with the 3-sided Melee and only show up for 2-sided FSO and Scenarios.
;)
Post by: Vraciu on December 17, 2019, 09:07:37 AM
That tells me there is a large percentage of Hitech's customers that no longer bother with the 3-sided Melee and only show up for 2-sided FSO and Scenarios.
;)
:uhoh
:bolt:
Post by: DmonSlyr on December 17, 2019, 09:20:42 AM
That tells me there is a large percentage of Hitech's customers that no longer bother with the 3-sided Melee and only show up for 2-sided FSO and Scenarios.
;)
Meh, that's 2 completely different situations and set up.
Now, try marketing the FSO and special events outside of the game and other places than the forums, then you might have a chance. There is virtually no marketing for these events and I'm sure very few new players see them in the forums.
There is just no, or very little enthusiasm outside of the game. There is no scoring competitions. Hardly anyone has ever heard of AH.
The game is too hard or time consuming for most people. That's really the issue. Then make them pay for a subscription every month after barely learning the game, that's another big issue.
You have to really LOVE AH and really want to be successful in it, or it's just very tough to get in to it and pay the money every month. I don't know why so many haven't returned back. The game is hardly any different than it was in 2007..
I've actually seen the #s tick up a bit this winter. Still, I feel like there isn't a big enough team in AH for new maps and planes and additions to the game to come out on a timely basis.
No news or special events updates on the front page along with the same video from 3 years ago doesn't make the game seem like it's being promoted very well. The front page looks very stale.
Where is the hype?
Post by: CptTrips on December 17, 2019, 11:34:05 AM
Meh, that's 2 completely different situations and set up.
Thanks CptObvious. ;) One is 3-sided, one is 2-sided. One is curated, one is not. I've talked to several people in the Scenarios that said they never bother playing the Melee. If they go in there at all, it is just to quickly check their convergence for the plane they are going to be flying in the Scenario.
Now, try marketing the FSO and special events outside of the game and other places than the forums, then you might have a chance. There is virtually no marketing for these events and I'm sure very few new players see them in the forums.
Agreed. I'm wondering if events are really the better stealth product. It's pretty much marketed now as subscribe to our Melee, oh and there are some Scenarios on the side occasionally as well.
Maybe flip the script and focus and really super charge and expand the Scenario capabilities and market AH as:
"Sign up for duty and participate in monthly historical re-enactments of the WWII air war! Relive History. Change History! Oh, and we have a silly 3-chess piece Melee arena where you can go practice in between the main events." :D
I've also said before (and was attacked), I think there should be event tickets. I'd like to try to draw in IL2 and DCS and WB and WWIIOL pilots in to participate in a event. Yes, they can open a subscription and then close it again, but most people won't do that. They don't know Hitech. The will assume that they will get screwed and charged an extra month, even though HTC makes it very easy to cancel. Asking someone to open an ongoing subscription is just psychologically a big ask.
I've actually seen the #s tick up a bit this winter. Still, I feel like there isn't a big enough team in AH for new maps and planes and additions to the game to come out on a timely basis.
But don't the numbers always trend up in winter when people are house-bound and then decline again once it warms up? It's just that year after year, it never trends up quite as high as the last year, and drops back down a little lower than the year before.
No news or special events updates on the front page along with the same video from 3 years ago doesn't make the game seem like it's being promoted very well. The front page looks very stale.
Where is the hype?
It was suggested that a Social Media Team be formed to produce regular content to hosted by HTC's official channels and web page (with Hitech's review of course). There are lots of talented people in this community and I think I've seen some people volunteer to help with that. It would be more powerful for new content to pushed through HTC's media and web channels so the company doesn't look like a mothballed dead museum. I understand HTC has extremely limit bandwidth and resources . I'm suggesting HTC should to help us, help them.
I don't know if anything like that is underway and just stealth.
:salute
Post by: Trev95 on December 17, 2019, 11:56:39 AM
Thanks CptObvious. ;) One is 3-sided, one is 2-sided. One is curated, one is not. I've talked to several people in the Scenarios that said they never bother playing the Melee. If they go in there at all, it is just to quickly check their convergence for the plane they are going to be flying in the Scenario.
Agreed. I'm wondering if events are really the better stealth product. It's pretty much marketed now as subscribe to our Melee, oh and there are some Scenarios on the side occasionally as well.
Maybe flip the script and focus and really super charge and expand the Scenario capabilities and market AH as:
"Sign up for duty and participate in monthly historical re-enactments of the WWII air war! Relive History. Change History! Oh, and we have a silly 3-chess piece Melee arena where you can go practice in between the main events." :D
I've also said before (and was attacked), I think there should be event tickets. I'd like to try to draw in IL2 and DCS and WB and WWIIOL pilots in to participate in a event. Yes, they can open a subscription and then close it again, but most people won't do that. They don't know Hitech. The will assume that they will get screwed and charged an extra month, even though HTC makes it very easy to cancel. Asking someone to open an ongoing subscription is just psychologically a big ask.
But don't the numbers always trend up in winter when people are house-bound and then decline again once it warms up? It's just that year after year, it never trends up quite as high as the last year, and drops back down a little lower than the year before.
It was suggested that a Social Media Team be formed to produce regular content to hosted by HTC's official channels and web page (with Hitech's review of course). There are lots of talented people in this community and I think I've seen some people volunteer to help with that. It would be more powerful for new content to pushed through HTC's media and web channels so the company doesn't look like a mothballed dead museum. I understand HTC has extremely limit bandwidth and resources . I'm suggesting HTC should to help us, help them.
I don't know if anything like that is underway and just stealth.
:salute
+1
Post by: fuzeman on December 17, 2019, 12:17:46 PM
<SNIP> There is no scoring competitions. <SNIP>
Just for craps and laughter, where does KOTH fit into this statement?
I hear and read people saying where's the fight? The Special Event that packs most dog-fighting/hour of any event we have barely gets enough players to even run it.
:headscratch:
Post by: Lusche on December 17, 2019, 12:24:58 PM
But don't the numbers always trend up in winter when people are house-bound and then decline again once it warms up? It's just that year after year, it never trends up quite as high as the last year, and drops back down a little lower than the year before.
Yes, it's exactly like that.
Post by: Lusche on December 17, 2019, 12:31:46 PM
I hear and read people saying where's the fight? The Special Event that packs most dog-fighting/hour of any event we have barely gets enough players to even run it.
:headscratch:
I think they often mean a different type of 'fight' than the kind of duels in KOTH. It would be better they would use the term 'battle', because that's what they are often looking for.
Post by: Shuffler on December 17, 2019, 12:38:51 PM
Post by: CptTrips on December 17, 2019, 01:25:11 PM
Yes, it's exactly like that.
A seasonal variance superimposed on a overall decade long downward trend line.
Surely the trend line will eventually and magically reverse itself without us having to make any scary changes from the way we've always done things.
But only if you believe in magic and Tinkerbell with ALL your might! ;)
:salute
Post by: bozon on December 17, 2019, 01:26:10 PM
The game smells of mothballs. The average player age is probably over 40, we had numerous players literally dying of old age.
There is no saving AH - the game has to die in order to rise from its own ashes. The new game must not be AH4, but a new name. It may have all the familiar features of AH, many mechanics under the hood, and a similar core game, but it must feel new and branded as a new game. No 17 year old wants to pay monthly to join a franchise that was launched in 1999 (older than himself!) and play with a bunch of grumpy old geezers.
Not cool.
I see an empty niche in the market for a large scale online combat sim. DCS servers are not that, nor are Sturmovik. Warthunder is a silly arcade with matched teams and instances. None have a one big persistent arena maintained and hosted by the developers, where the whole community plays together.
I may be wrong about this, but I think the AH replacement should go back to its roots - an air combat focused game. Leave the GVs to WWII online and Warthunder. The inclusion of a ground game only makes the game look more complicated, daunting and more scary to new players. Keep it simple and focused.
Player generated “Missions” must be encouraged - this is the most welcoming feature for a new player, and where he is seamlessly introduced to the social aspect of the game.
Years ago I suggested a way to introduce organized missions into the sandbox arena without forcing everyone to only fly missions. This was in the wake of the canceled “tour of duty”, and was meant to incorporate elements of that into the MA. I still think it is a good direction to explore, not necessarily in that exact implementation.
Here is that old thread (from 2009):
https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,256300.0.html
Post by: Vraciu on December 17, 2019, 01:29:59 PM
Post by: Max on December 17, 2019, 01:31:04 PM
AH3 will not get any new players.
The game smells of mothballs. The average player age is probably over 40, we had numerous players literally dying of old age.
There is no saving AH - the game has to die in order to rise from its own ashes. The new game must not be AH4, but a new name. It may have all the familiar features of AH, many mechanics under the hood, and a similar core game, but it must feel new and branded as a new game. No 17 year old wants to pay monthly to join a franchise that was launched in 1999 (older than himself!) and play with a bunch of grumpy old geezers.
Not cool.
I see an empty niche in the market for a large scale online combat sim. DCS servers are not that, nor are Sturmovik. Warthunder is a silly arcade with matched teams and instances. None have a one big persistent arena maintained and hosted by the developers, where the whole community plays together.
I may be wrong about this, but I think the AH replacement should go back to its roots - an air combat focused game. Leave the GVs to WWII online and Warthunder. The inclusion of a ground game only makes the game look more complicated, daunting and more scary to new players. Keep it simple and focused.
Player generated “Missions” must be encouraged - this is the most welcoming feature for a new player, and where he is seamlessly introduced to the social aspect of the game.
Years ago I suggested a way to introduce organized missions into the sandbox arena without forcing everyone to only fly missions. This was in the wake of the canceled “tour of duty”, and was meant to incorporate elements of that into the MA. I still think it is a good direction to explore, not necessarily in that exact implementation.
Here is that old thread (from 2009):
https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,256300.0.html
In other words, Air Warrior
Post by: Zazen13 on December 17, 2019, 01:53:59 PM
Post by: CptTrips on December 17, 2019, 02:06:48 PM
AH3 will not get any new players.
The game smells of mothballs. The average player age is probably over 40, we had numerous players literally dying of old age.
You're going to Hell! :rofl
There is no saving AH - the game has to die in order to rise from its own ashes. The new game must not be AH4, but a new name. It may have all the familiar features of AH, many mechanics under the hood, and a similar core game, but it must feel new and branded as a new game. No 17 year old wants to pay monthly to join a franchise that was launched in 1999 (older than himself!) and play with a bunch of grumpy old geezers.
Not cool.
I don't see any reason to shut down AH. There is a legacy population of old timers who will not play anything else and apparently won't accept anything other than minor tweaks to what there is right now. Leave it in place. It's all just running on boxes in his closet and I bet he could run 50 Aces High on the hardware he has now and has network code so optimized that with the current numbers it is probably only using a small fraction of the bandwidth.
I do think there is merit in considering what comes next. A new project with fresh design freedom, not shackled by an entrenched DON'T-CHANGE-ANYTHING mafia. Good time to consider modern off-the-shelf game engines. Offload the plumbing work to people who specialize in that, so Hitech can concentrate on product specific game-play. It may not be worth it, but starting fresh with a new game would be a good time to explore it.
I may be wrong about this, but I think the AH replacement should go back to its roots - an air combat focused game. Leave the GVs to WWII online and Warthunder. The inclusion of a ground game only makes the game look more complicated, daunting and more scary to new players. Keep it simple and focused.
Maybe you're right, but I personally would disagree with that. I think that is going exactly the wrong direction. I think plane only would be just too narrow an offering for the current market. I think the game needs to be broadened not constricted. I'd add Battlefield level infantry. :D
It's not 1988 anymore. You can not time travel back to your Air Warrior heyday. The current market isn't interested in your old stories Gramps. :D
You could do a prototype test with AH without having to build an entire new game to test the theory. For one year, disable all boats and vehicles in all arena and see how it works out.
:bolt:
My dream? Venture capital comes in and says,
"Hey guys, we got $50 mil burning a hole in our pocket but you, WB, WWIIOL have to stop dividing a market so that none of you have enough resources to succeed. We're merging you all.
Bill, get the marketing machine going. Get press make sales. Sell the sizzle!
Dale, figure out how to encapsulate your flight models and interop to a Unity front end and Unity Connected Games infrastructure.
Rats, get some real modelers and redo all your infantry and work with Dale on the vehicles.
Here are wads of cash to get things rolling.
Ready, set, GO!"
:D
Post by: Vraciu on December 17, 2019, 02:10:42 PM
Post by: CptTrips on December 17, 2019, 02:13:52 PM
WW2OL still exists? :headscratch:
I've seen similar comments about AH in its Steam reviews.
[paraphrased]
"Oh man, me and my little brother Mikie used to play this game when we were little kids after school taking turns at the joystick. I can't believe that game is still going. I though it shut down a decade ago!"
Post by: Wiley on December 17, 2019, 02:16:30 PM
A new project with fresh design freedom, not shackled by an entrenched DON'T-CHANGE-ANYTHING mafia.
What in your entire experience with HTC and AH leads you to the conclusion that the entrenched don't change anything mafia has any impact whatsoever on HT's decisions? He sure didn't listen to them when he made the changes he made going to AH3.
I think Bozon's got it about summed up. Maybe making a different game alongside AH3 would work too. Hence, dating sim. Low dev cost, low overhead, massive profit.
Either that or generating more content than the game's ever had over its entire lifespan and releasing it over the shortest timeframe they've ever done.
Wiley.
Post by: 100Coogn on December 17, 2019, 02:27:57 PM
Keep the TA and DA, but get rid of all the clutter.
Coogan
Post by: Lusche on December 17, 2019, 02:33:13 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/XkPbrbj.png)
Post by: CptTrips on December 17, 2019, 02:34:04 PM
What in your entire experience with HTC and AH leads you to the conclusion that the entrenched don't change anything mafia has any impact whatsoever on HT's decisions?
Because he can do basic arithmetic?
It's not really about new players or old players. It's about net players.
He has two basic variables in the equation to balance:
1. Get new players.
2. Keep old players.
If he fails at #2 before he can achieve #1, he is out of money.
But to make the kind of changes needed to achieve #1, he risks failing at #2 because of a revolt by the DCA Mafia. If he fails at #2 before he can replace them with enough of #1, he is out of money.
So, mothball the old game as-is for the old guys. The attrition rate from natural causes is hopefully less than all out revolt.
Throw your energies into a new game to achieve #1 with full design freedom.
:salute
Post by: Vraciu on December 17, 2019, 02:37:53 PM
Maybe instead of making all of these extra arena's and a seperate game for noobs, HTC should just keep it simple and make one playground.
Keep the TA and DA, but get rid of all the clutter.
Coogan
This.
Post by: CptTrips on December 17, 2019, 02:44:04 PM
Maybe instead of making all of these extra arena's and a seperate game for noobs, HTC should just keep it simple and make one playground.
Keep the TA and DA, but get rid of all the clutter.
Coogan
It's always a good idea to review and streamline your operations occasionally. He has already mentioned to me once he wants to cleanup the arena list.
Steal the Sheep can go.
Mission Arena can go.
WW1WF can go now with Offline missions.
AvA? It's only real use now is MNM. I guess that could go into one of the SEA.
I assume you should keep Custom Arena for people that want to set private servers for them and their friends or squads to practice.
What else?
Do you think that would put 500 players back in the Melee, though?
:salute
Post by: DmonSlyr on December 17, 2019, 02:45:27 PM
Thanks CptObvious. ;) One is 3-sided, one is 2-sided. One is curated, one is not. I've talked to several people in the Scenarios that said they never bother playing the Melee. If they go in there at all, it is just to quickly check their convergence for the plane they are going to be flying in the Scenario.
Agreed. I'm wondering if events are really the better stealth product. It's pretty much marketed now as subscribe to our Melee, oh and there are some Scenarios on the side occasionally as well.
Maybe flip the script and focus and really super charge and expand the Scenario capabilities and market AH as:
"Sign up for duty and participate in monthly historical re-enactments of the WWII air war! Relive History. Change History! Oh, and we have a silly 3-chess piece Melee arena where you can go practice in between the main events." :D
I've also said before (and was attacked), I think there should be event tickets. I'd like to try to draw in IL2 and DCS and WB and WWIIOL pilots in to participate in a event. Yes, they can open a subscription and then close it again, but most people won't do that. They don't know Hitech. The will assume that they will get screwed and charged an extra month, even though HTC makes it very easy to cancel. Asking someone to open an ongoing subscription is just psychologically a big ask.
But don't the numbers always trend up in winter when people are house-bound and then decline again once it warms up? It's just that year after year, it never trends up quite as high as the last year, and drops back down a little lower than the year before.
It was suggested that a Social Media Team be formed to produce regular content to hosted by HTC's official channels and web page (with Hitech's review of course). There are lots of talented people in this community and I think I've seen some people volunteer to help with that. It would be more powerful for new content to pushed through HTC's media and web channels so the company doesn't look like a mothballed dead museum. I understand HTC has extremely limit bandwidth and resources . I'm suggesting HTC should to help us, help them.
I don't know if anything like that is underway and just stealth.
:salute
FSO and the MA are 2 completely different approaches. FSO is AvA. FSO is organized with squad objectives, fso has one 1 life. Organizers keep it relatively balanced. It's not anywhere near the same as the MA from a strategic or gameplay point of view. Those players who only play FSO will still not play the MA even if it is 2 sided. The problem with 2 side is that one big squad will enter the arena. This will then create a huge embalance for one team that a lot of people will complain about. Auto balance would mess up squads and piss people off. Similar to what happened when the MA waa split back in 09, which IMO was detrimental to AH losing a lot of players.
The special events truely need more marketing. There is a huge opportunity there.
Just for craps and laughter, where does KOTH fit into this statement?
I hear and read people saying where's the fight? The Special Event that packs most dog-fighting/hour of any event we have barely gets enough players to even run it.
:headscratch:
No front page website hype. No free month sub for winning. No free month sub for getting #1 in the MA. So many people are scared of competition now in this game, it's ridiculous.
Like said, overall there is just a lack of hype for most things.
Perhaps social media would work... Youtube commercials would work fairly well, especially with all the air combat movies lately.
Hitech creations being a 1-3 man army now makes it very challenging for hype and enthusiasm and updates to happen.
I hope that if hitech were to retire soon, that he sells it rather than just shutting it all down. Easier said than done tho.
Post by: DmonSlyr on December 17, 2019, 02:49:00 PM
It's always a good idea to review and streamline your operations occasionally. He has already mentioned to me once he wants to cleanup the arena list.
Steal the Sheep can go.
Mission Arena can go.
WW1WF can go now with Offline missions.
AvA? It's only real use now is MNM. I guess that could go into one of the SEA.
I assume you should keep Custom Arena for people that want to set private servers for them and their friends or squads to practice.
What else?
Do you think that would put 500 players back in the Melee, though?
:salute
Need a feeder fighter bowl for noobs. A fighter bowl for everyone. A DA with air spawns without a furball lake that you can choose teams. A TA for appointments and with training tips and AI help. The MA, WW1, and AvA. That's it.
Post by: CptTrips on December 17, 2019, 02:55:46 PM
Need a feeder fighter bowl for noobs. A fighter bowl for everyone. A DA with air spawns without a furball lake. A TA for appointments and with training tips and AI help. The MA, WW1, and AvA. That's it.
What purpose does the AvA serve now? Could it's MNM not be folded in to a SEA arena? In honesty, is there any other time anyone is in there?
If we are going down that road, I'd say close WWI as well. I've never seen 16 players in there so someone could always start up a WWI Custom Arena. Or maybe MNM could occasionally go WWI in the SEA.
Are you saying close the Custom Arena too?
You didn't mention the SEA, but obviously you are not including them.
So after all that, would it put 500 players in the Melee again?
Post by: 100Coogn on December 17, 2019, 02:56:32 PM
It's always a good idea to review and streamline your operations occasionally. He has already mentioned to me once he wants to cleanup the arena list.
Steal the Sheep can go.
Mission Arena can go.
WW1WF can go now with Offline missions.
AvA? It's only real use now is MNM. I guess that could go into one of the SEA.
I assume you should keep Custom Arena for people that want to set private servers for them and their friends or squads to practice.
What else?
Do you think that would put 500 players back in the Melee, though?
:salute
Forgot about the Offline Misssions. I would keep those, as it does not affect online play.
Coogan :salute
Post by: CptTrips on December 17, 2019, 03:02:31 PM
The problem with 2 side is that one big squad will enter the arena. This will then create a huge embalance for one team that a lot of people will complain about.
It boggles my mind that you don't understand it is no better with three sides. There is some kind of disconnect here.
It's even worse with 3-sides because the remaining players who are resisting the mega-squad are on two different countries which means they also have to fight each other as well as the mega-squad.
Oh, well. Nevermind. That's the way it was in 1988, so that's the way it has to stay. I concede you are stuck with 3-sides. It's not going to change. Good luck with that.
:rolleyes:
Post by: CptTrips on December 17, 2019, 03:04:13 PM
Forgot about the Offline Misssions. I would keep those, as it does not affect online play.
Coogan :salute
Sorry. I didn't think you meant getting rid of offline missions.
I meant to say that with the improved ease of use of Offline Missions, we no longer need the WW1WF arena.
:salute
Post by: Lusche on December 17, 2019, 03:04:39 PM
(...)
I assume you should keep Custom Arena for people that want to set private servers for them and their friends or squads to practice.
Custom arenas are instrumental to testing stuff :old: :joystick: :D
Do you think that would put 500 players back in the Melee, though?
Not me. I'm very much with Bozon on that matter (though not in the details)
But it would be great if I was wrong again ;)
Post by: ccvi on December 17, 2019, 03:17:03 PM
... if I was wrong again ;)Again? :O
Post by: CptTrips on December 17, 2019, 03:19:42 PM
Again? :O
I demand a Lusche Errors-over-Time chart!
:old:
Post by: DmonSlyr on December 17, 2019, 03:21:34 PM
Post by: CptTrips on December 17, 2019, 03:22:52 PM
Custom arenas and SEA arenas should definitely stay.
And AvA?
Post by: Oldman731 on December 17, 2019, 03:24:32 PM
What purpose does the AvA serve now? Could it's MNM not be folded in to a SEA arena? In honesty, is there any other time anyone is in there?
If no one is there...what do you expect to achieve by closing it down...?
- oldman
Post by: Vraciu on December 17, 2019, 03:28:31 PM
If no one is there...what do you expect to achieve by closing it down...?
- oldman
Perception.
Just like showing 42/750 makes an arena look emptier than just saying 42 online.
Post by: CptTrips on December 17, 2019, 03:34:51 PM
If no one is there...what do you expect to achieve by closing it down...?
- oldman
I'm not sure.
The proposition was made that if we trimmed all these unnecessary arena that would put players back into the Melee.
I'm just gaming it through to see what that looks like and then understand how that puts players back in the Melee. Maybe I'm missing something that will become obvious.
Though Hitech did make the point that it just reduces confusion and it just doesn't look good with a bunch of empty arena. I agree with that. No problem with clearing the decks.
I just don't see how it materially changes the population of the remaining arena.
:salute
Post by: ccvi on December 17, 2019, 03:45:11 PM
Perception.
Just like showing 42/750 makes an arena look emptier than just saying 42 online.
Just amke it always show a flat number slightly higher than current. If there's 5 show max 10, if there's 72 max 100, with 147 show max 200 ... etc. Always looks well-populated.
Post by: Lusche on December 17, 2019, 03:45:30 PM
I demand a Lusche Errors-over-Time chart!
:old:
classified :old:
Again? :O
The last time I was wrong big time was when AH went to Steam. I mean, my pessimism was correct in the end but only because two wrongs made one right :uhoh
I thought AH would not be noticed by many and would not generate much interest - Boy, was I wrong! :bhead Tens of thousands of downloads!
But then I thought a good portion those that would find their way to AH would be pleased and subscribe. After all AH, even with all those little faults was a great game, the best I ever played!
Wrong again. They stopped by, shook their heads and moved on. Almost nobody signed up. I would never have thought of a retention rate as low as it finally turned out to be. Never. :frown:
Post by: hitech on December 17, 2019, 03:59:40 PM
Wrong again. They stopped by, shook their heads and moved on. Almost nobody signed up. I would never have thought of a retention rate as low as it finally turned out to be. Never. :frown:
And this is the nut that needs to be cracked. I haven't found the correct nut cracker yet. But I can show you a huge pile of broken crackers.
HiTech
Post by: ccvi on December 17, 2019, 04:06:02 PM
It might not need to be that extreme, but even simple things like assigning the same button to open chat that is used in every other game out there would help.
Post by: Meatwad on December 17, 2019, 04:06:13 PM
Post by: Vraciu on December 17, 2019, 04:41:34 PM
And this is the nut that needs to be cracked. I haven't found the correct nut cracker yet. But I can show you a huge pile of broken crackers.
HiTech
You gotta get them flying and able to communicate. Also, why not give them the Spit V or IX free? Maybe the Lanc with limited fuel as well? Something to set the hook.
Post by: Vraciu on December 17, 2019, 04:43:01 PM
Would there be anything very wrong in only allowing a free access using just a basic handful of equipment maybe a total of a dozen, but the normal $15 a month to have access to everything else? It could inflate the numbers
Yes, something like this. Just give away a few rides. Nothing crazy. Nothing with outstanding performance. But something relatively easy to fly and at least somewhat competitive.
Post by: Vraciu on December 17, 2019, 04:46:03 PM
classified :old:
The last time I was wrong big time was when AH went to Steam. I mean, my pessimism was correct in the end but only because two wrongs made one right :uhoh
I thought AH would not be noticed by many and would not generate much interest - Boy, was I wrong! :bhead Tens of thousands of downloads!
But then I thought a good portion those that would find their way to AH would be pleased and subscribe. After all AH, even with all those little faults was a great game, the best I ever played!
Wrong again. They stopped by, shook their heads and moved on. Almost nobody signed up. I would never have thought of a retention rate as low as it finally turned out to be. Never. :frown:
I wish we had the current far settings back then.
It wouldn’t hurt to have some drones flying around when numbers drop below X during off peak. Again, not Uber drones like we see in the Match, but just something to show action. Maybe some Japanese trainers haplessly flitting about doing stalls and landing practice. Let everyone be Oscar Perdomo and hose them.
Post by: CptTrips on December 17, 2019, 04:55:48 PM
Just throw more money at advertising!
Have you thought of advertising?
Why don't you just advertise?
:t :bolt:
Post by: Lusche on December 17, 2019, 05:08:49 PM
Post by: Wiley on December 17, 2019, 05:18:17 PM
I don't think you should change a thing.
Just throw more money at advertising!
Have you thought of advertising?
Why don't you just advertise?
:t :bolt:
Possibly at airshows? Or air museums?
Wiley.
Post by: CptTrips on December 17, 2019, 05:20:25 PM
Possibly at airshows? Or air museums?
Wiley.
You're going to Hell!
:rofl :rofl :rofl
Post by: turt21 on December 17, 2019, 05:26:03 PM
As for a free trial with limited abilities thats exactly what World of Tanks does. You can play for free forever with great graphics but with only a limited tank set.
Post by: Vraciu on December 17, 2019, 05:37:35 PM
The game has never been the same since they stopped posting missions. Now before I have to stand back from the monitor Ive never learned how to post them or put them together, so rather than try to put missions that dont work I never tried.
As for a free trial with limited abilities thats exactly what World of Tanks does. You can play for free forever with great graphics but with only a limited tank set.
You don't have enough players to create missions now. That's why. At least I think so.
Some missions to escort drones would be fun. Maybe points for saving a percentage of them? Airborne invasions of random fields by drones to generate action?
We gotta think outside the box.
One of the best games out there involves killing AI zombies. Hours of entertainment.
Post by: Max on December 17, 2019, 05:50:35 PM
As for a free trial with limited abilities thats exactly what World of Tanks does. You can play for free forever with great graphics but with only a limited tank set.
That's been suggested hundreds of times in the past :bhead
Post by: CptTrips on December 17, 2019, 05:51:01 PM
Some missions to escort drones would be fun. Maybe points for saving a percentage of them? Airborne invasions of random fields by drones to generate action?
Attempting to put AI in the Melee would summon a shrieking that would make the sound from asking for 2-sides seem like a Southern Baptist church choir.
We gotta think outside the box.
You can think out of the box all you want as long as the end result doesn't deviate from what we have now.
;)
Post by: Max on December 17, 2019, 05:51:49 PM
We gotta think outside the box.
What you mean "we", Kimosabe? :neener:
Post by: DmonSlyr on December 17, 2019, 06:02:26 PM
And this is the nut that needs to be cracked. I haven't found the correct nut cracker yet. But I can show you a huge pile of broken crackers.
HiTech
Unfortunately, $15 a month is a hard bargain these days. You are dealing with a majority of 12-35 year olds on steam who don't want to pay for food, much less video games. Without the H2H system like we had in the 05s, it's very hard to get people to sign up after 2 weeks.
When you can get Halo master series right now for $40 and never pay another dime again. They are going to flock to it. Granted it's a much easier game to learn.
I'm sure there are some other reasons like graphics and learnability that scared people away.
Most people don't stick around simply because it's too hard and mean for them. It ain't an arcade that pops you right into the action, so they get discouraged and leave on some of these big maps that take awhile to get to an enemy.
Post by: DmonSlyr on December 17, 2019, 06:12:37 PM
Post by: Vraciu on December 17, 2019, 06:18:23 PM
I just wish there was like 2-4 planes in the MA that were free all time. It would really encourage people to subscribe. It would allow friends to play who are on the fence and already used their 2 week trial. It would easily populate the arena and create much bigger fights overall. People would be iching to fly that P51 and would subscribe. This would be a huge key to populating the MA again. A great promotion like this wouldnt hurt.
This is the deal right here. Let’s get the teens who balk at paying to at least fly SOMETHING and once they get hooked they’ll want more.
Give them a tier system.
- Two rides free (chosen by Hitech).
- Pay X $ for all EW.
- Pay X for all EW and MW.
- Pay $15 for everything.
This makes the game truly FREE TO PLAY and will give them time to become hooked.
It doesn’t solve the issues related to getting into flight but it will answer the complaints that the game isn’t free and bring more targets for those who pay. It also makes sense on some level to the grinding crowd.
Post by: guncrasher on December 17, 2019, 06:42:50 PM
But I can tell you what would happen, some subscribers would drop paying and fly spitv.
semp
Post by: DmonSlyr on December 17, 2019, 06:58:25 PM
Viracu if they won't stay and complete their 2 week trial, what makes you think they will stay with a few free airplanes.
But I can tell you what would happen, some subscribers would drop paying and fly spitv.
semp
After about 2 weeks of flying spit5s. I can promise you they would resubscribe.
Setting up the JS and mouse controls are always the hardest part.
Most need people have a really hard time in the MA when they are new. That's why a feeder fighter bowl that puts them right into quick action would do wonders at showing them the game, getting them into a fight, and be able to ask questions in a smaller environment.
Post by: Ciaphas on December 17, 2019, 06:59:21 PM
And this is the nut that needs to be cracked. I haven't found the correct nut cracker yet. But I can show you a huge pile of broken crackers.
HiTech
I suspect that forcing a minimal training mission before entering the MA would prove to be advantageous to most new guys.
A tiered sub amount may work to sweeten the deal as it would allow them to chose their level of involvement.
Remove the nearly empty arenas or consolidate them to remove the appearance of an "empty parking lot" and remove the max number from the arena population table. Just show the amount online.
time for chow, more to come later.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: CAV on December 17, 2019, 07:01:39 PM
Quote
The game has never been the same since they stopped posting missions.
Who can blame them for stopping...............
If you attack the base and killed the hangers, the furballer would start crying...
If went after a undefended base, the "win the types" got mad, especially if you went NOE in force.
If you tried to plan out mission, they're always seem to be a few people who knew exactly where the M3 and the C47 was hiding. And made a beeline straight to them.
(but it is okay side switching and cross-country chat doesn't promote spying... or so players tell me)
Post by: Vraciu on December 17, 2019, 07:32:24 PM
Viracu if they won't stay and complete their 2 week trial, what makes you think they will stay with a few free airplanes.
But I can tell you what would happen, some subscribers would drop paying and fly spitv.
semp
We lost a lot players on Steam AFTER the free trial. Read the reviews. People complain about the sub. Many don't even bother trying because of it.
As noted, there is a huge psychological barrier to "cancel anytime" when you have to put in a credit card number.
I doubt many current subscribers would cancel to fly a Spit V. I sure as heck won't.
Post by: Vraciu on December 17, 2019, 07:56:26 PM
I suspect that forcing a minimal training mission before entering the MA would prove to be advantageous to most new guys.
A tiered sub amount may work to sweeten the deal as it would allow them to chose their level of involvement.
Remove the nearly empty arenas or consolidate them to remove the appearance of an "empty parking lot" and remove the max number from the arena population table. Just show the amount online.
time for chow, more to come later.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
+1
After about 2 weeks of flying spit5s. I can promise you they would resubscribe.
Yep.
Post by: SPKmes on December 17, 2019, 08:25:45 PM
This however is a free game..they get to come and go as they please.. only they don't realise they are about to spend a years sub on upgrading themselves to be competitive....
I can tell them that game isn't free... look at what you have spent.... all types of excuses come out.... eventually they agree hmmm ...but walk away from the conversation and it is like you never spoke to them...
Many see $15 per month as omg .... they can't don't seem to understand that it is 50c a day.... and you get everything...
They all like aces high... but can't stand not being top of the game almost instantly.... and that problem is exasperated in AH at the moment. Because of the numbers there is a higher percentage of average player these days as opposed to when numbers were higher...
When the numbers were up there you had super uber.(not many).. uber. (a few more than the other).. good/ average.(again just a few more than the previous)..your getting there( the majority).. noob.... baby seal and fodder..most of the arena was at the you're getting there and lower... the average guy seemed wicked good back then...that is till you met the others...hahahaha
. Now we have, pretty damn good, average , noob and can't get off the runway .... and most of the arena is in the average pile with very few lower so finding an even fight is tough... also the things that people call others out on are more prevalent these days.... they were always around...just spread over far more...
So back to my no hoper son and nephews.... they are a hard bunch to hook... but given the right opportunity they can get well hooked.... two week timer doesn't work... two weeks or set number of hours of actual online plying time could... as they keep coming back...log on timer starts...log off, timer stops.... it could take them three months to get through the time period... however they have time to run a little before you set the hook
Post by: guncrasher on December 17, 2019, 08:53:16 PM
After about 2 weeks of flying spit5s. I can promise you they would resubscribe.
Setting up the JS and mouse controls are always the hardest part.
Most need people have a really hard time in the MA when they are new. That's why a feeder fighter bowl that puts them right into quick action would do wonders at showing them the game, getting them into a fight, and be able to ask questions in a smaller environment.
they dont last 15 minutes with all the planes available. but sure if they see a spit5, they will drool and decide to stay.
semp
Post by: CptTrips on December 17, 2019, 09:07:22 PM
they dont last 15 minutes with all the planes available. but sure if they see a spit5, they will drool and decide to stay.
semp
Semp, I'm curious. Do you have any thoughts on how to reverse the downward player count trend?
Post by: guncrasher on December 17, 2019, 09:19:32 PM
Semp, I'm curious. Do you have any thoughts on how to reverse the downward player count trend?
nope, I have no idea. but I do know that people that dont last 15 minutes in the game with all planes available, for sure wont stay if they get the spit5 for free. and I mean the spit5 is part of all the free planes in those 2 weeks. however I do believe some current subscribers will cancel and fly the spit5 for free and this game will be known as spit5 high.
semp
Post by: guncrasher on December 17, 2019, 09:25:08 PM
We lost a lot players on Steam AFTER the free trial. Read the reviews. People complain about the sub. Many don't even bother trying because of it.
As noted, there is a huge psychological barrier to "cancel anytime" when you have to put in a credit card number.
I doubt many current subscribers would cancel to fly a Spit V. I sure as heck won't.
I dont have steam so I cant read the reviews. but I do know that a few aces high players that had been banned from aces high did post horrible reviews at the begining. that didnt stop the thousands of downloads with people that only lasted 15 minutes. if your idea would bring new subscribers, I have no doubt that it would have been implemented a couple of years ago.
semp
Post by: CptTrips on December 17, 2019, 09:35:53 PM
(https://cropper.watch.aetnd.com/images.history.com/images/media/video/history_weeds_omerta_sf_1153426/History_Weeds_Omerta_SF_still_624x352.jpg?w=1440)
"Don't change anything. Got it?"
Post by: Vraciu on December 17, 2019, 10:18:32 PM
nope, I have no idea. but I do know that people that dont last 15 minutes in the game with all planes available, for sure wont stay if they get the spit5 for free. and I mean the spit5 is part of all the free planes in those 2 weeks. however I do believe some current subscribers will cancel and fly the spit5 for free and this game will be known as spit5 high.
semp
You ignore the people who see "two weeks free, give us your card number, $15 to subscribe after trial, cancel any time" and don't even bother.
If you can't up the retention rate then you need to attract more people to try it to make up for it.
Give them a free ride. Tier the sub beyond that. Fish attract sharks. Get the fish in here.
Post by: Vraciu on December 17, 2019, 10:19:21 PM
I dont have steam so I cant read the reviews. but I do know that a few aces high players that had been banned from aces high did post horrible reviews at the begining. that didnt stop the thousands of downloads with people that only lasted 15 minutes. if your idea would bring new subscribers, I have no doubt that it would have been implemented a couple of years ago.
semp
:bhead
Post by: Vraciu on December 17, 2019, 10:20:39 PM
DCA MAFIA
(https://cropper.watch.aetnd.com/images.history.com/images/media/video/history_weeds_omerta_sf_1153426/History_Weeds_Omerta_SF_still_624x352.jpg?w=1440)
"Don't change anything. Got it?"
That's kinda the vibe I sense.
Anyone can come up with a reason to say no. We need more YES'es.
Post by: SPKmes on December 17, 2019, 11:08:35 PM
That's kinda the vibe I sense.
Anyone can come up with a reason to say no. We need more YES'es.
hahaha when it suits hahaha
Post by: guncrasher on December 17, 2019, 11:21:50 PM
You ignore the people who see "two weeks free, give us your card number, $15 to subscribe after trial, cancel any time" and don't even bother.
If you can't up the retention rate then you need to attract more people to try it to make up for it.
Give them a free ride. Tier the sub beyond that. Fish attract sharks. Get the fish in here.
actually you dont need a credit card for your 2 week trial.
semp
Post by: guncrasher on December 17, 2019, 11:44:14 PM
:bhead
yup, that you have been doing for the last couple of weeks. not that your ideas are bad but more like heard them a thousand times before from all kinds of players.
You are a smart guy, been around working here and there, how many new people have come to you and try to sell the same ideas that you heard before than you now wont work.
if anybody had a truly great idea that would bring players back, they would never post it. they would call hitech streight up and say, hey I have this idea nobody ever thought before and I guarantee you it will work and will bring players back. lets negotiate. I know I would have done that, and you would too. you dont have to sell that idea to us, you have to sell it to hitech. and if it would work, pretty sure you would get a finder's fee.
it's not the same as giving ideas to improve gameplay. for example a few months i had a hard time seeing bases, I posted it, couple of days later, I upped a plane, looked around and wow i can see the base from a sector away just like in ah2. another was the expand the text buffer or whatever you call it. idea was not entirely mine but I'll take credit for it. lots of other players have given input on how to improve game play.
it seems that you post the same 2 or 3 ideas that have been discussed to death in the past. why you keep pushing them after being told no, I have no idea, maybe it's like you said in another thread, it's just a mental exercise or however you described it.
like I said in another post, I have no idea how to increase players, if I had a winner, I would call hitech directly and talk about compensation, it could be maybe a life time membership in aces high. but so far I have not seen anybody post a sure winner. that's my opinion.
semp
Post by: dieter on December 18, 2019, 12:39:00 AM
The ego maniacs that get upset when someone doesn't fly to their particular liking are always going to be here, and they are just as irrelevant here as they are in real life. I would aggressively mute them for talking smack, no one wants to try to learn in an environment with grumpy old coots that are egocentric. They add nothing to the game. If you want people to play the game, having someone complain at them for some perceived wrong is ludicrous; why fight the learning curve to play with grumpy old men. Be civil, or mumble to yourself. I like the idea of a noob feeding bowl, give em an air start, limited altitude, and a turn fighter. Ki-43's, hurricanes and spits with 303's and let em figure it out.
My two cents
Post by: FBKampfer on December 18, 2019, 01:54:33 AM
We joke about AH being addicting, but a FTP model relies on it, and has been extremely successful monetarily, especially in the form of the micro transaction. Physiologically its very close to gambling addiction in the response it elicits in the human brain.
Not that I advise HTC go for the micro transaction route. It's catching major hell in virtually every sector from online forums, Youtube, and even being banned in certain guises.
However it gets one thing absolutely right: when someone else has something you don't, people will pay to get it.
FTP gets you:
Panzer IV H
M4(75)
SdKfz 251
Spitfire IX
Bf 109G-2
B-26
F6F
PT boat
$10/mo gets you everything else.
LIMIT LEGACY PLAYER ACCESS TO THE NEW GUY'S.
Accounts must be tied to an IP address (but will allow more than one) and are immediately launched to the training arena with a guided click-through and follow along tutorial, where they will learn how to adjust their ride, get in the air, are given a crash-course in BFM, and make their first kill against a gently maneuvering AI.
There are tutorials for tanks, boats, guns, and CV launches.
They have Access to the MA, the training arena, and the "newcomers" arena. Of long time players, only designated trainers with specific trainer accounts may access the newcomers arena for training and help.
There is a warning upon first entering the MA: The MA is for more experienced players, and those looking for an extreme challenge. Players have varying range of experience from virtually none, to decades of flying both in real life and in game. The fight will be brutal, and you are not expected to survive.
After say, 500 hours total flight time, they are graduated to the MA and lose access to the newcomers arena.
Post by: Lusche on December 18, 2019, 02:29:42 AM
After say, 500 hours total flight time, they are graduated to the MA and lose access to the newcomers arena.
For the average AH player, 500 hours total flight time is about two years worth of playing AH.
Just saying. :cool:
Post by: bozon on December 18, 2019, 03:47:07 AM
...This does not surprise me.
I thought AH would not be noticed by many and would not generate much interest - Boy, was I wrong! :bhead Tens of thousands of downloads!
But then I thought a good portion those that would find their way to AH would be pleased and subscribe. After all AH, even with all those little faults was a great game, the best I ever played!
Wrong again. They stopped by, shook their heads and moved on. Almost nobody signed up. I would never have thought of a retention rate as low as it finally turned out to be. Never. :frown:
A 17 years old downloads the game via steam. Fires it up.
Filter1: Does he have a stick? Very unlikely - instant uninstall for all players that try to fly with a mouse and hate it.
Filter2: What to do now? Click random menus manage to fly offline, where there is nothing but stupid drones. Where is the game? Uninstall all short attention span kids.
Filter3: got online! Hmm.. lots of empty arenas, one with 90 players. Choose that one and find yourself in a tower in the middle of nowhere. No activity whatsoever. Look at the clipboard- you don’t understand what you see. Spawn with some plane - what do I do now? What is the purpose of this game? Uninstall all players who can’t be bothered to read tutorials, forums, or look for YouTube videos that explain things.
Filter4: Make the effort to learn a little about this game. The game has been running since 1999! This is a great record if you are a traditional bakery or a brewery, but for a computer game? I mean, it started on 36,600 bps phone modems that I was saw in a museum. All the players on vox sound like they are 50. The interface says year 2000 (our player was born in 2002). Everyone are level 80 vetrans with gazillion gold (perk points), except him. No other noobs to be seen.
Uninstall for all players that dislike the smell of mothballs and old people.
Filter5: Got this far? It’s 15$ a month whether you actually log in or not. You can’t suspend it either. Uninstall all players that have already invested in other sims, don’t have credit cards, or are not used to pay for games.
Probability of retaining a new player = Filter1 x Filter2 x Filter3 x Filter4 x Filter5 = 1E-4.
So of the 10,000 steam downloads AH maybe got 1 new subscriber.
Post by: ccvi on December 18, 2019, 05:31:03 AM
Removal of NOE, improved radar, increased town sizes, improved AAA, increased number of hangars, ... and fewer players (compared to the early days). This draws a lot more action to the PvE element of the game, leaving less room for PvP air-to-air action. While the changes are probably intended to improve that, they don't convert an NOE field grabber into a 1-vs-1 dogfighter, and force an extended focus on ground targets to play the team objective (*).
The game isn't the one single best game for 1-vs-1 fights. There is competition that didn't exist 20 years ago. Dogfights (1-vs-1 or furballs without a purpose) can be had elsewhere, for a fixed one-time purchase, with better looking graphics, too. It doesn't work as the worlds best flight simulator either, others are providing a much more detailed simulation.
The monthly payment is only worth it for the persistent world with its different tactical options and strategic elements. Those are what make it unique. Many changes haven't influenced these topics in a positive way I think.
None of the advertising, not the website, steam page, emphasize this aspect. New people join while expecting certain things, based on the material consumed before. Then they notice that the game doesn't deliver on those points, at least not any better than alternatives, and at a monthly payment, and they leave.
An "easy" way to increase the retention rate is to pull in the right kind of players, that are looking for what the game has to offer. "Great dogfights here!" draws in players that do expect 15$/month-better-than-elsewhere dogfights, and quickly notice that they won't get what they were looking for. "Complex strategic game with planes!" might draw in less players (not necessarily), but a lot more might stay (**).
(*) The probability to encounter an enemy tank preventing capture is much higher than encountering an enemy fighter that is looking for the goon, mostly because goons don't work anymore - so the proper action is to always take off heavy.
(**) When I first read about this game (actually, WB, but that's the same more or less), it was on a squad page that described the concept of the war, with planes as the means to fight the war. Would a description of doom-with-planes have drawn me in? Unlikely. With more alternatives available, even less today.
Post by: RAG on December 18, 2019, 06:25:59 AM
(dare i suggest this as not being a sub myself?, but i cant justify it at the moment, but if i was allowed even a crap plane for 45mins i would occasionally give you guys some bait and a spirited fight!) :x
I loved my free trial but i was useless, however i have improved vastly just from non paid arenas but i would love some MA action!
Post by: ccvi on December 18, 2019, 06:52:38 AM
For the average AH player, 500 hours total flight time is about two years worth of playing AH.
Just saying. :cool:
Just enough to leave the "total noob" rank.
Post by: hitech on December 18, 2019, 08:30:36 AM
What about 1 free plane, but wait,...... to stop others cancelling their sub you can only go in the MA for say 45mins a day without a sub.... this enables them to get better, get hooked and also gives others in the MA a bit more action. It also gives newbies a chance to make friends and find helpers who persuade them to join.... win win.
(dare i suggest this as not being a sub myself?, but i cant justify it at the moment, but if i was allowed even a crap plane for 45mins i would occasionally give you guys some bait and a spirited fight!) :x
I loved my free trial but i was useless, however i have improved vastly just from non paid arenas but i would love some MA action!
WOW, an Idea I can not remember hearing before. X minutes free time a day.
HiTech
Post by: Volron on December 18, 2019, 08:35:14 AM
WOW, an Idea I can not remember hearing before. X minutes free time a day.
HiTech
(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/0d/0df1353e59ee416bb5d9281e1633a3c78d22d6b4a821b882c1dcc0a1923e7f98.jpg)
I blame my lack of coffee at the moment... :blank:
Post by: DmonSlyr on December 18, 2019, 08:49:21 AM
What about 1 free plane, but wait,...... to stop others cancelling their sub you can only go in the MA for say 45mins a day without a sub.... this enables them to get better, get hooked and also gives others in the MA a bit more action. It also gives newbies a chance to make friends and find helpers who persuade them to join.... win win.
(dare i suggest this as not being a sub myself?, but i cant justify it at the moment, but if i was allowed even a crap plane for 45mins i would occasionally give you guys some bait and a spirited fight!) :x
I loved my free trial but i was useless, however i have improved vastly just from non paid arenas but i would love some MA action!
Actually a pretty good idea!
Anything to keep players in the MA fighting.
We were all garbage during the first 2 weeks. I got 1 kill in about 30 sorties.
Pretty much the only reason I stayed was because of H2H allowing me to learn the game on a smaller level. When it closed down, I was forced to purchase the subscription, but I did because I was better at the game, understood it better, and could hold my own a little better. I honestly did not like the far away bases at the time being 25 miles. (My biggest gripe). I still sucked in the MA for a while until I joined a squad that changed my abilities 10x. The MA is a very tough place. With only 2 weeks, it's like putting 1 lamb into a pit of alligators all trying to eat it. With no where else to go but the MA, it makes subscribing a tough disision.
WOW, an Idea I can not remember hearing before. X minutes free time a day.
HiTech
I think you should try it. The more people we have in the game fighting, the more will come back and subscribe due to bigger fights. It's a chain reaction. More fighters equal more fights which equals more players playing for the bigger fights.
Post by: DmonSlyr on December 18, 2019, 08:59:38 AM
It would be a great promotion and could be marketed as free to play for real.
It would also create much better fights in the MA overall.
Post by: ccvi on December 18, 2019, 09:08:28 AM
It would also create much better fights in the MA overall.
Yes, more noobs with limited time to learn in inferior rides. That provides a lot more easy targets... err, better fights I mean.
Post by: CptTrips on December 18, 2019, 09:10:11 AM
WOW, an Idea I can not remember hearing before. X minutes free time a day.
HiTech
I like that idea too, but why doesn't the same attack made on the idea of a limited F2P plane set apply to this?
The argument would go like: "If they are not completing their 2-week trial, not even staying 5 min, what good is giving them x free minutes a day after their trial ends?"
Post by: DmonSlyr on December 18, 2019, 09:16:28 AM
Yes, more noobs with limited time to learn in inferior rides. That provides a lot more easy targets... err, better fights I mean.
You have 2 weeks to fly all the planes. If you don't subscribe, then you have an hour a day to fly inferior planes. It still allows people to play the game. It still allows people to play for free. It still allows people to learn the game. It gives them all the more reason to subscribe in-order to get back your fav ride.
Generally most games don't start off players with the best equipment. Most newbs have to play the game to unlock better equipment. It keeps them encouraged to keep playing the game.
Post by: Vraciu on December 18, 2019, 09:33:33 AM
actually you dont need a credit card for your 2 week trial.
semp
The point remains.
People balk at subscriptions.
When they see that you have to pay (eventually or now) they walk. Many Steam reviews complained about this very thing.
Post by: Vraciu on December 18, 2019, 09:38:04 AM
(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/0d/0df1353e59ee416bb5d9281e1633a3c78d22d6b4a821b882c1dcc0a1923e7f98.jpg)
I blame my lack of coffee at the moment... :blank:
:rofl
Post by: CptTrips on December 18, 2019, 10:00:09 AM
Not that I want to change AH to nothing but mouse pilots, but that is a lot of potential customers that are not being well targeted IMHO. If you could improve that experience and get them to stay longer, you have the chance of eventually talking them into getting a cheap twisty stick. I think that is too high a percentage of your potential customers to ignore. They could eventually be convinced to get sticks, but only if they are already having enough fun in a game to want to take it to the next level.
I've been flying mouse for over a week trying to come up with a set of offline missions tweaked for them, but I've about given up. I can see why they are not staying 5 min and I can't tone the AI down that far without them falling out of the sky. And that interface works significantly different than I think games they are used to. (At least I think. I'm downloading WT again to remind myself how that worked.)
If you are ever interested in improving that, there are some discussions that could be had. :salute
$0.02,
CptTrips
Post by: ccvi on December 18, 2019, 10:03:35 AM
Post by: CptTrips on December 18, 2019, 10:11:18 AM
Fly for free with mouse only, joystick requires a subscription :D
You're going to Hell!!! :rofl :rofl :rofl
I know there are a few rare individuals that fly with mouse, but they are rare exceptions.
I think 99.98% of humans on Earth would find the current mode very unsatisfying and inconsistent with other games they've played. (I might be confusing how BF handled mouse flight with how WT handled it. I would lean toward WT as that is probably the most common past experience.)
Post by: Vraciu on December 18, 2019, 10:24:40 AM
Fly for free with mouse only, joystick requires a subscription :D
:rofl
Post by: turt21 on December 18, 2019, 10:42:51 AM
Post by: Shuffler on December 18, 2019, 10:43:40 AM
The point remains.
People balk at subscriptions.
When they see that you have to pay (eventually or now) they walk. Many Steam reviews complained about this very thing.
Since so much software is subscription based these days.... they must not do much on their computers.
Post by: DmonSlyr on December 18, 2019, 10:53:55 AM
My only issue with this is as follows. Ive been playing this game a long time and most nights Im in for less than 45 min. For me except for scenarios and stuff it wouldnt make any sense to pay for an acct/.
Which is another reason for the limited plane set.
Post by: TequilaChaser on December 18, 2019, 11:02:36 AM
Since so much software is subscription based these days.... they must not do much on their computers.
Heck, Microsoft has been working towards making Windows a monthly/quarterly/yearly subscription based service that they are almost there.... They've already semi-accomplished it with MS Office 365... and they were talking about the fact that this "continuesly paying subscription service" was their target all the way back during launching of WindowsXP/2000/ME days....
Post by: Vraciu on December 18, 2019, 11:03:38 AM
My only issue with this is as follows. Ive been playing this game a long time and most nights Im in for less than 45 min. For me except for scenarios and stuff it wouldnt make any sense to pay for an acct/.
You would mitigate that by limiting the plane set that's free.
Anything given away free has to be enough to bait the hook.
I am like Violator in that I started in the free 8-player arenas then moved over to the Main. I don't know what it was about that setup but it simply worked well.
Post by: Vraciu on December 18, 2019, 11:04:40 AM
Heck, Microsoft has been working towards making Windows a monthly/quarterly/yearly subscription based service that they are almost there.... They've already semi-accomplished it with MS Office 365... and they were talking about the fact that this "continuesly paying subscription service" was their target all the way back during launching of WindowsXP/2000/ME days....
The day they do that is the day I switch to Linux Mint for good.
Post by: CptTrips on December 18, 2019, 11:17:41 AM
they must not do much on their computers.
You must not play a lot of games.
Many games that are subscription, have F2P levels where you can play as long as your want for free, maybe not with the best stuff. (Hmmm where have we heard that suggestion.) Because subscriptions are a very hard sell, you have to lure them in carefully.
Other games like the battlefield series, you buy the base game and get to play on the servers for free. There will be DLC you can buy, but are not required. You may pay $60, but that is psychologically different than letting a company get their subscription hooks into forever.
I bought Battlefield 4 for $60 in 2014. I never bought the DLC, but eventually those get release free, you just don't get them first. To this day, the servers are still full and I've played all this time on the initial investment. That company rakes in billions, so somehow they make it work.
You may not like those models, but that is the competitive landscape HTC is facing. Those are the games setting the expectations of players that come to try AH.
Post by: Wiley on December 18, 2019, 11:26:21 AM
In something like BF, bullets still work, and the paying members move at the same speed the free guys do.
Wiley.
Post by: Ciaphas on December 18, 2019, 11:32:49 AM
What setups worked to retain players, what were the catalyst changes that pushed people out the door?
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Post by: CptTrips on December 18, 2019, 11:38:38 AM
So how do you guys propose to allow the free players any kind of success or fun in the MA when they're in their Hurri 1's or whatever against a world of LA7s and Spixteens? They're already at a severe penalty in that they have no experience, they have no joystick, and they're in inferior equipment.
Do you prefer they uninstall the game completely?
In games like WT, don't the F2P have access to inferior hardware? Or at least have to grind harder? Some how WT makes money.
In the past when I've suggest a F2P set of planes, I proposed that flying those planes they could grind out perk points to let them occasionally fly a premium plane to get a taste of what subscribers get.
In reality, the plane is probably not their limiting factor. You could put them in ME-262 and it wouldn't make any difference. So let them have the F2P planeset (which puts variety back in the arena), and someday they may learn enough to actually take advantage of a better plane when they subscribe.
In something like BF, bullets still work, and the paying members move at the same speed the free guys do.
BF doesn't have F2P , but they do have just a one time purchase model. Until the next version or DLC. ;) They've been doing that since 2003 and making billions.
Post by: Wiley on December 18, 2019, 11:39:02 AM
instead of completely redesigning the wheel, let's look at what worked during the "hay day".
What setups worked to retain players, what were the catalyst changes that pushed people out the door?
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IMO what pushed people away was options that weren't open world, (relatively) long term strategy PVP that gave them something to work towards and more fairness in the matchups.
Wiley.
Post by: Lusche on December 18, 2019, 11:40:06 AM
instead of completely redesigning the wheel, let's look at what worked during the "hay day".
What setups worked to retain players, what were the catalyst changes that pushed people out the door?
That's the problem:
There were no no specific catalyst changes that more or less suddenly impacted the population. At some point, AH hit a peak, held it for some time and then started to drop gradually. There were no significant changes at that time anything could be attributed to.
So if anything, it's possibly more a lack of changes. But which ones? You will get a plenty opinions about that here on the BBS. ;)
Post by: Wiley on December 18, 2019, 11:42:43 AM
Do you prefer they uninstall the game completely?
Which they won't do the 20th time in the last half hour where their free plane got smashed with no chance against their opponent?
Quote
In games like WT, don't the F2P have access to inferior hardware? Or at least have to grind harder? Some how WT makes money.
Yup, and they're matched up against equivalent planes. You don't go in with a biplane against P51Ds.
Quote
In the past when I've suggest a F2P set of planes, I proposed that flying those planes they could grind out perk points to let them occasionally fly a premium plane to get a taste of what subscribers get.
In reality, the plane is probably not their limiting factor. You could put them in ME-262 and it wouldn't make any difference. So let them have the F2P planeset (which puts variety back in the arena), and someday they may learn enough to actually take advantage of a better plane when they subscribe.
BF doesn't have F2P , but they do have just a one time purchase model. Until the next version or DLC. ;) They've been doing that since 2003 and making billions.
Again. Bullets still work in there, and the other guys can't run away any faster than a day 1 player. There's a difference.
Wiley.
Post by: 100Coogn on December 18, 2019, 11:45:09 AM
instead of completely redesigning the wheel, let's look at what worked during the "hay day".
What setups worked to retain players, what were the catalyst changes that pushed people out the door?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Orange/Blue Arenas and Titanic Tuesday!
Dot-Dar
Coogan
Post by: Ciaphas on December 18, 2019, 11:46:08 AM
That's the problem:
There were no no specific catalyst changes that more or less suddenly impacted the population. At some point, AH hit a peak, held it for some time and then started to drop gradually. There were no significant changes at that time anything could be attributed to.
So if anything, it's possibly more a lack of changes. But which ones? You will get a plenty opinions about that here on the BBS. ;)
There has got to be a way to compile data concerning player loss against major updates with a two month buffer after each change implementation to include the changes that AH3 implemented upon release.
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Post by: FBKampfer on December 18, 2019, 11:54:22 AM
Since so much software is subscription based these days.... they must not do much on their computers.
Unless they're doing actual work, they certainly aren't using subscription software much, no.
Either its something like video editing software, or sound mixers, etc, for your business, in which case you either bite the bullet and curse the software company's name every time it boots, or they bootleg it and pray nothing happens for it.
If you're doing a hobby, you bootleg it, flip the software company the bird, and go on your merry way.
The only gaming related subscriptions that I have even heard of anyone using regularly is Xbox Live or Playstation Plus, where it's required to access online multi-player.
Outside of gaming, the only ones I can even remember anyone talking about are the streaming services.
Post by: Vraciu on December 18, 2019, 11:58:40 AM
So how do you guys propose to allow the free players any kind of success or fun in the MA when they're in their Hurri 1's or whatever against a world of LA7s and Spixteens? They're already at a severe penalty in that they have no experience, they have no joystick, and they're in inferior equipment.
In something like BF, bullets still work, and the paying members move at the same speed the free guys do.
Wiley.
You make one ride free that's reasonably competitive. Spit V or Spit IX.
Post by: Lusche on December 18, 2019, 12:00:28 PM
There has got to be a way to compile data concerning player loss against major updates with a two month buffer after each change implementation to include the changes that AH3 implemented upon release.
I did something similar (population vs majore gameplay changes) in the past, that's the base for my post above.
Post by: CptTrips on December 18, 2019, 12:01:16 PM
Which they won't do the 20th time in the last half hour where their free plane got smashed with no chance against their opponent?
:rolleyes: Wiley, many companies use variation of the F2P model successfully and make more money doing it than HTC has ever dreamed of. The model has several advantages like not scaring the player away too soon demanding a subscription. The longer you maintain contact with the potential customer, the more opportunity you have to convince them to finally convert.
Yup, and they're matched up against equivalent planes. You don't go in with a biplane against P51Ds.
You're just making stuff up. No one said they have to fly a biplane.
Post by: Vraciu on December 18, 2019, 12:01:20 PM
Do you prefer they uninstall the game completely?
In games like WT, don't the F2P have access to inferior hardware? Or at least have to grind harder? Some how WT makes money.
In the past when I've suggest a F2P set of planes, I proposed that flying those planes they could grind out perk points to let them occasionally fly a premium plane to get a taste of what subscribers get.
In reality, the plane is probably not their limiting factor. You could put them in ME-262 and it wouldn't make any difference. So let them have the F2P planeset (which puts variety back in the arena), and someday they may learn enough to actually take advantage of a better plane when they subscribe.
BF doesn't have F2P , but they do have just a one time purchase model. Until the next version or DLC. ;) They've been doing that since 2003 and making billions.
I was thinking along these lines, too. You can earn perk points and check out a "premium" ride now and then. Or if you rank top three for a tour you get one free month of everything--but you don't get two in a row, that way others have a chance to win the prize.
Post by: Ciaphas on December 18, 2019, 12:08:07 PM
I did something similar (population vs majore gameplay changes) in the past, that's the base for my post above.
I kind of figured you did
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Post by: DmonSlyr on December 18, 2019, 12:12:28 PM
That's the problem:
There were no no specific catalyst changes that more or less suddenly impacted the population. At some point, AH hit a peak, held it for some time and then started to drop gradually. There were no significant changes at that time anything could be attributed to.
So if anything, it's possibly more a lack of changes. But which ones? You will get a plenty opinions about that here on the BBS. ;)
Orange/Blue Arenas and Titanic Tuesday!
Dot-Dar
Coogan
Ding ding ding. We have a winner.
Splitting the arenas was the single greatest disaster to happen to AH.
I think also switching to AH3 needing a better computer was also a big one for most of the older folks. Though they should get a new computer...
So how do you guys propose to allow the free players any kind of success or fun in the MA when they're in their Hurri 1's or whatever against a world of LA7s and Spixteens? They're already at a severe penalty in that they have no experience, they have no joystick, and they're in inferior equipment.
In something like BF, bullets still work, and the paying members move at the same speed the free guys do.
Wiley.
Why feel bad for players who are playing for free? They would actually provide better fights for real subscribers and would know that they have the opportunity to subscribe if they want the better planes. It's a win win for everyone. At least they could still play the MA even if it's in an older plane. Id keep it at a spit5 and a 109F, because you don't want planes that people can fly easily without having to pay the subscription. It would be great for the European crowd with the lowest #s. A hurr 1 or a spit1 or 109e would be too hard, I agree, but a spit5 + 109f would give them a small chance.
Post by: Wiley on December 18, 2019, 12:15:17 PM
You're just making stuff up. No one said they have to fly a biplane.
I was going by WT where the first plane I had access to at the time was some kind of biplane. It was matched against similar planes that were somewhat better. You weren't thrown in against everything they had available. All vehicle-heavy games give you a "fair" fight when it comes to the equipment.
Spit 5 or 9, sure, ok. It will mitigate things slightly. They still don't have much of a chance compared to the games you're trying to mimic.
Wiley.
Post by: CptTrips on December 18, 2019, 12:16:44 PM
I did something similar (population vs majore gameplay changes) in the past, that's the base for my post above.
So here is what I think the problem is. You can not understand what has happened to HTC just by looking at changes to AH over time.
That is assuming that HTC did something wrong to "break" Aces High. I don't think that is necessarily the case. I think it is more a matter of how the competitive landscape AH is embedded in has changed drastically and their models have not kept pace or found a successful counter model.
Charting the decline in AH population against game changes internal to AH may not be illuminating. You may need to look externally not internally. Chart the decline in Aces High population against:
WWIIOnline
Release of BF:1942
Release of BF2
Release of BF3
Release of BF4
Release of BF1
Release of BF5
War Thunder
Wold of Tanks
World of Warships
PUBG
Console gaming
Etc. Etc. Etc.
Which is why I don't think what Ciaphas and other were suggesting of rolling the clock back, will work. You can not roll the clock back on the whole world including your competitors.
What worked great in 1999, or 1888 will not necessarily work now.
:salute
Post by: FBKampfer on December 18, 2019, 12:18:33 PM
There has got to be a way to compile data concerning player loss against major updates with a two month buffer after each change implementation to include the changes that AH3 implemented upon release.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This assumes there was some fundamental shift in the game that killed it, which may be (and I believe to be) inaccurate.
AH has always (at least since I joined around 05 or so) been a much older demographic than, say, Anthem, or Titanfall.
It has, broadly, failed to attract and retain younger people. Squeakers not withstanding, they are certainly an exception, whereas on the consoles, they're just another day online.
Your player demographic simply aged. Many (certainly more than have been posted on the forums) have literally died of old age.
Say it's only 50 people since 2005 (unlikely), well when the arenas only held like 700 on Titanic Tuesdays, that's literally 7% of your player base dying (as a low estimate).
The game is insanely inaccessible to the majority of potential players. The interface feels old as hell, we literally use dot commands for regular game interface like it's still '95. Most of you have been here at least a decade, would whip the toejam out of a noob while literally 2 bottles of jack deep, and you are (or at least used to be) colossal love muffines on 200 and country chat whenever a noob chimed in.
Most of you will complain about (or at least think it) kids these days not having the attention span, or determination, or thick skin, or whatever. But that's not going to bring the heyday back, and actively hinders solutions.
You'll either see the game change significantly or it'll eventually close up shop. Or maybe you'll just be another name posted on the forums, read by fewer and fewer people.
Whichever the case, there's simply no going back.
Post by: Wiley on December 18, 2019, 12:20:38 PM
So here is what I think the problem is. You can not understand what has happened to HTC just by looking at changes to AH over time.
That is assuming that HTC did something wrong to "break" Aces High. I don't think that is necessarily the case. I think it is more a matter of how the competitive landscape AH is embedded in has changed drastically and their models have not kept pace or found a successful counter model.
Charting the decline in AH population against game changes internal to AH may not be illuminating. You may need to look externally not internally. Chart the decline in Aces High population against:
WWIIOnline
Release of BF:1942
Release of BF2
Release of BF3
Release of BF4
Release of BF1
Release of BF5
War Thunder
Wold of Tanks
World of Warships
PUBG
Console gaming
Etc. Etc. Etc.
Which is why I don't think what Ciaphas and other were suggesting of rolling the clock back, will work. You can not roll the clock back on the whole world including your competitors.
What worked great in 1999, or 1888 will not necessarily work now.
:salute
This times eleventy.
Wiley.
Post by: FBKampfer on December 18, 2019, 12:20:51 PM
Why feel bad for players who are playing for free? They would actually provide better fights for real subscribers and would know that they have the opportunity to subscribe if they want the better planes. It's a win win for everyone. At least they could still play the MA even if it's in an older plane. Id keep it at a spit5 and a 109F, because you don't want planes that people can fly easily without having to pay the subscription. It would be great for the European crowd with the lowest #s. A hurr 1 or a spit1 or 109e would be too hard, I agree, but a spit5 + 109f would give them a small chance.
Because, genius, unless they're something more than fodder for the vets, none of them are going to stick around.
Post by: Wiley on December 18, 2019, 12:24:13 PM
Because, genius, unless they're something more than fodder for the vets, none of them are going to stick around.
One factor that's really working against this game is the vast majority of gamers IMO will not tolerate unfairness for long. That's another major factor working against this game. It's entirely possible for you to wind up in a nearly unwinnable situation through no fault of your own. In fact, it's easy for that to happen.
Wiley.
Post by: Lusche on December 18, 2019, 12:31:38 PM
It's entirely possible for you to wind up in a nearly unwinnable situation through no fault of your own.
Many games like that out there. Eve Online or Elite:Dangerous come to my mind immediately, where anyone (but unexperienced players in particular) can easily get clobbered without even knowing what happened to them. Gatecamps, gankings of hekpless exploration ships, scams, blob roams...
Post by: Wiley on December 18, 2019, 12:38:58 PM
Many games like that out there. Eve Online or Elite:Dangerous come to my mind immediately, where anyone (but unexperienced players in particular) can easily get clobbered without even knowing what happened to them. Gatecamps, gankings of hekpless exploration ships, scams, blob roams...
Yeah, but there's also in addition to the PVP massive amounts of content that don't require you to interact with players.
Wiley.
Post by: DmonSlyr on December 18, 2019, 12:41:22 PM
Because, genius, unless they're something more than fodder for the vets, none of them are going to stick around.
Generally every game is like that. Every game makes you work your way toward better stuff. It's the psychology about it. It keeps Those players trying for better stuff. Those players aren't going to have any more of a chance in P51Ds. If they are choosing to play for free, they should be cannon fodder for the paying subscribers. It would make the fights bigger and better overall. The whole key to letting them play for free is to allow them to play longer and stay in the MA, not to allow them to take advantage of players with their free hour. If a returning vet comes in and only plays for an hour. they could tear up the arena with their late war plane and get all they need out of that hour. It would give them no reason to subscribe again. Make them only play in spit5s, then they could still play, but it would create the urge to subscribe in order to fly their fav plane again.
Post by: CptTrips on December 18, 2019, 12:42:07 PM
Many games like that out there. Eve Online or Elite:Dangerous come to my mind immediately, where anyone (but unexperienced players in particular) can easily get clobbered without even knowing what happened to them. Gatecamps, gankings of hekpless exploration ships, scams, blob roams...
Exactly. I don't buy that argument.
In BF they typically start you out with a decent gun. Not the best, but decent. You grind and rank up and unlock better weapons over time. Does it suck to turn the corner and have your face melted off by an enemy gun whose rate of fire you don't come close to? Yes. It makes you really want to rank up to level 10 so you can go get one.
At least 20 times an hour in BF I find myself in unwinnable situations that weren't really my fault. Like being spawned in front of a camper that mows me down before I even know where I am. Or being stuck on a team of drooling Little Jimmy's that couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag with a machete. War is Hell.
The real difference? There is lower cost to the suck. I can get back in action with a minute or two and forget about it, instead of facing another 20 min flight on auto-pilot between fleeting moments of fun.
Potential customers are having their expectations set by games like that before they try Aces High.
:salute
Post by: Shuffler on December 18, 2019, 12:45:32 PM
I don't have time.
You must not play a lot of games.
Many games that are subscription, have F2P levels where you can play as long as your want for free, maybe not with the best stuff. (Hmmm where have we heard that suggestion.) Because subscriptions are a very hard sell, you have to lure them in carefully.
Other games like the battlefield series, you buy the base game and get to play on the servers for free. There will be DLC you can buy, but are not required. You may pay $60, but that is psychologically different than letting a company get their subscription hooks into forever.
I bought Battlefield 4 for $60 in 2014. I never bought the DLC, but eventually those get release free, you just don't get them first. To this day, the servers are still full and I've played all this time on the initial investment. That company rakes in billions, so somehow they make it work.
You may not like those models, but that is the competitive landscape HTC is facing. Those are the games setting the expectations of players that come to try AH.
Post by: guncrasher on December 18, 2019, 12:46:52 PM
You make one ride free that's reasonably competitive. Spit V or Spit IX.
Now this is an idea I can support. Give me a free spit 9 and I'll fly that all day long, give me perks too and I'll be flying 262 or tempest every week.
What about a free bomber? Boston's? I'll be flying b29s in a few hours.
Say bye bye to my subscription and welcome a new player.
semp
Post by: CptTrips on December 18, 2019, 12:47:04 PM
I don't have time.
So your opinions on the current competitive landscape are not particularly informed.
Post by: Wiley on December 18, 2019, 12:48:45 PM
In BF they typically start you out with a decent gun. Not the best, but decent. You grind and rank up and unlock better weapons over time. Does it suck to turn the corner and have your face melted off by an enemy gun whose rate of fire you don't come close to? Yes. It makes you really want to rank up to level 10 so you can go get one.
And in that same situation if you waltzed around a corner into his sights, would your level 10 gun have made any difference? 99 out of 100, I would expect not. And in most of those games TTK is short enough your starter weapon will work well enough if you get the drop on the guy.
Wiley.
Post by: CptTrips on December 18, 2019, 12:49:25 PM
Now this is an idea I can support. Give me a free spit 9 and I'll fly that all day long, give me perks too and I'll be flying 262 or tempest every week.
What about a free bomber? Boston's? I'll be flying b29s in a few hours.
Say bye bye to my subscription and welcome a new player.
semp
Yeah. It's amazing how War Thunder makes so much money. Maybe you should go tell them how it can never work. :rofl :rofl :rofl
:rolleyes:
Post by: pembquist on December 18, 2019, 12:51:03 PM
Regardless this is clearly difficult and might need real market research/psychological expertise of the food pellet/electric shock type. Which kind of sucks.
Post by: Ciaphas on December 18, 2019, 01:00:28 PM
So here is what I think the problem is. You can not understand what has happened to HTC just by looking at changes to AH over time.
That is assuming that HTC did something wrong to "break" Aces High. I don't think that is necessarily the case. I think it is more a matter of how the competitive landscape AH is embedded in has changed drastically and their models have not kept pace or found a successful counter model.
Charting the decline in AH population against game changes internal to AH may not be illuminating. You may need to look externally not internally. Chart the decline in Aces High population against:
WWIIOnline
Release of BF:1942
Release of BF2
Release of BF3
Release of BF4
Release of BF1
Release of BF5
War Thunder
Wold of Tanks
World of Warships
PUBG
Console gaming
Etc. Etc. Etc.
Which is why I don't think what Ciaphas and other were suggesting of rolling the clock back, will work. You can not roll the clock back on the whole world including your competitors.
What worked great in 1999, or 1888 will not necessarily work now.
:salute
Not talking about rolling the clock back. There comes a point when changes are no longer productive. It's more than worth it to revisit the reasons for change and the outcome of those changes over a period of time. Are the changes still relevant, are they still having a "value added" affect, do these changes still fit within the scope of the current state of gamers?
Sometimes revisiting these items and answering those questions lead to solutions that may never have been discovered if those changes were never challenged with a fresh perspective.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: CptTrips on December 18, 2019, 01:02:24 PM
And in that same situation if you waltzed around a corner into his sights, would your level 10 gun have made any difference? 99 out of 100, I would expect not. And in most of those games TTK is short enough your starter weapon will work well enough if you get the drop on the guy.
Wiley.
Oh absolutely it makes a difference! If we are talking CQB.
Assuming he is not genetically superior to me with faster reflexes, all other things being equal, I will almost always win with higher rate of fire. I'll get that last round in his head that drops him, before he can get that last round in on me. I'll take damage, but generally win the encounter by one or two bullets.
Those guns are offset with harder to manage recoil, but by the time you've ranked to level 10 that is no problem for you. In CQB I'll take rate of fire over dmg per round any day.
YMMV
Post by: guncrasher on December 18, 2019, 01:06:54 PM
Yeah. It's amazing how War Thunder makes so much money. Maybe you should go tell them how it can never work. :rofl :rofl :rofl
:rolleyes:
So they make money, so it's not free to play. Somebody gotta pay.
semp
Post by: CptTrips on December 18, 2019, 01:08:18 PM
So they make money, so it's not free to play. Somebody gotta pay.
semp
LoL Genius.
Post by: Ciaphas on December 18, 2019, 01:08:24 PM
So they make money, so it's not free to play. Somebody gotta pay.
semp
It's free to play
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Post by: Vraciu on December 18, 2019, 01:15:11 PM
Now this is an idea I can support. Give me a free spit 9 and I'll fly that all day long, give me perks too and I'll be flying 262 or tempest every week.
What about a free bomber? Boston's? I'll be flying b29s in a few hours.
Say bye bye to my subscription and welcome a new player.
semp
Nope. That's not how it would work.
But if freeloaders generate critical mass it will benefit the game.
So you tool around in your Spit V and I'll wreck you in my "premium" ride. You play for free. I pay to turn you into spare parts. We both win.
Post by: Vraciu on December 18, 2019, 01:16:17 PM
Yeah. It's amazing how War Thunder makes so much money. Maybe you should go tell them how it can never work. :rofl :rofl :rofl
:rolleyes:
Heh. :aok :cheers:
Post by: Spikes on December 18, 2019, 01:20:20 PM
Post by: Wiley on December 18, 2019, 01:28:02 PM
Oh absolutely it makes a difference! If we are talking CQB.
Assuming he is not genetically superior to me with faster reflexes, all other things being equal, I will almost always win with higher rate of fire. I'll get that last round in his head that drops him, before he can get that last round in on me. I'll take damage, but generally win the encounter by one or two bullets.
Those guns are offset with harder to manage recoil, but by the time you've ranked to level 10 that is no problem for you. In CQB I'll take rate of fire over dmg per round any day.
YMMV
What you were describing sounded more to me like you walked around a corner the guy was actively covering. Lag helps you a bit there, but you still have to acquire him where all he has to do is pull a trigger.
Yeah, if the two of you notice each other at the same time, better equipment is better equipment. But you can only get a +10% speed increase in BF, which allows you to affect more of the arena over time than you would otherwise but has very little to do with winning a fight. I just think the performance differences across most planes in AH give you a ton more advantage than a better gun or a bit more armor.
Wiley.
Post by: guncrasher on December 18, 2019, 01:31:22 PM
Nope. That's not how it would work.
But if freeloaders generate critical mass it will benefit the game.
So you tool around in your Spit V and I'll wreck you in my "premium" ride. You play for free. I pay to turn you into spare parts. We both win.
Now you see why it won't work. You have the illusion that it will work.
semp
Post by: Lusche on December 18, 2019, 01:33:02 PM
So they make money, so it's not free to play. Somebody gotta pay.
The whales are paying for the rest of the playerbase. :)
Post by: ccvi on December 18, 2019, 01:33:09 PM
I am like Violator in that I started in the free 8-player arenas then moved over to the Main. I don't know what it was about that setup but it simply worked well.
Total lack of alternatives. Flight simulators existed, even including such with combat. Multipler games existed, even if most of them only for LAN games. Multipler LAN flight sims with combat ... none. And even if, the probability that friends usually LAN games are played with consider anything with flying is low.
Post by: CptTrips on December 18, 2019, 01:33:41 PM
I don't think the Battlefield games lure players away from Aces High. They are two different genres. War Thunder, WW2OL on the other hand...
I believe they do.
I think there were a LOT of Aces High players in 1999-2005 that were perfectly happy to move to BF once it became available. Where do you think the 700 players we used to have all went to? Not just to BF, but I bet many did. If not BF, the WT, or WT, or WoW, or WIIOL, etc.
A lot just wanted online multiplayer combat. They may have been OK with airplanes, but a lot didn't necessarily eat, live, and breath WWII fighter aircraft like the old timers you have left here now. They were like, whatever, airplanes, yeah I can do that for a while. AS other new mutliplayer online combat experiences came online they got lured off a few at a time to other games, even different genre.
Back in 1999, AH was really the best, if not the only, option out there for online multiplayer combat. Now players are drowning in options. With multiple options of monitization.
:salute
Post by: CptTrips on December 18, 2019, 01:44:24 PM
What you were describing sounded more to me like you walked around a corner the guy was actively covering.
If you don't understand that the higher rate of fire gives a district advantage in BF CQB, then you just haven't played it enough for us to discuss it. It's like talking to someone trying to convince you the IL2 is a better dogfighter than a P-51D. OK, whatever.
The only real exception is the shotgun. But you have to be an artist to make that work consistently. You have to hit perfect with that first round, or I've already melted your face off before you get the next shell shucked.
Do you play? You can pick up BF4 for $20 and play all you want on full servers. I'll run with you. Or use you for bait. :D
You can show me how those slow fire guns work on Operation Locker. ;)
Post by: Wiley on December 18, 2019, 01:53:36 PM
If you don't understand that the higher rate of fire gives a district advantage in BF CQB, then you just haven't played it enough for us to discuss it. It's like talking to someone trying to convince you the IL2 is a better dogfighter than a P-51D. OK, whatever.
Not what I was saying. As I said, if you both notice each other and acquire each other at the same time, yes, better equipment is better equipment. However, that's not what I thought you were describing. What you said in the first post sounded more like you walked into a camper or a person who was pointed right where you were going to pop out. At that point, what gun either of you have is less impactful.
Quote
The only real exception is the shotgun. But you have to be an artist to make that work consistently. You have to hit perfect with that first round, or I've already melted your face off before you get the next shell shucked.
Do you play? You can pick up BF4 for $20 and play all you want on full servers. I'll run with you. Or use you for bait. :D
You can show me how those slow fire guns work on Operation Locker. ;)
Haven't been bitten by the FPS/combined arms bug in a while but I'll bear it in mind. I have put in my time mostly in Counterstrike, PS2, PUBG, and a few others that escape me off the top of my head.
Wiley.
Post by: CptTrips on December 18, 2019, 02:01:08 PM
Haven't been bitten by the FPS/combined arms bug in a while but I'll bear it in mind. I have put in my time mostly in Counterstrike, PS2, PUBG, and a few others that escape me off the top of my head.
If you've played those you would have no problem.
In my opinions BF4 is the finest game ever produced by Western Civilization. (Too much? :D)
Sorry Hitech, you are in the top 3. :D
PM me any time.
Post by: ccvi on December 18, 2019, 02:07:16 PM
If they are choosing to play for free, they should be cannon fodder for the paying subscribers. It would make the fights bigger and better overall.
And I thought "better fights" was usually referring to something more even, where there is a risk of dying for both parties involved, fights that don't end quickly. I was assuming people described it like that, to sound serious, but basically were only looking for easy kills. I think this thread is the first time I've seen it stated explicitly that all that is desired is more easy targets.
Post by: mthrockmor on December 18, 2019, 02:15:56 PM
Boo
Post by: Lusche on December 18, 2019, 02:21:10 PM
Titanic Tuesday redux?
Boo
AH has Titanic Tuesday everyday now. :old:
Post by: DmonSlyr on December 18, 2019, 02:24:28 PM
And I thought "better fights" was usually referring to something more even, where there is a risk of dying for both parties involved, fights that don't end quickly. I was assuming people described it like that, to sound serious, but basically were only looking for easy kills. I think this thread is the first time I've seen it stated explicitly that all that is desired is more easy targets.
The goal is to allow them to play in the MA longer. Putting them in a semi challenging plane means they will crave paying the money to fly the better planes. If you make the planes the full scale, a vet can come in for an hour in the middle of prime time and do all he needs, in his fav plane, and not ever have to worry about paying. The goal is to prevent that by limiting the planes so that people do not abuse the free play. The goal is to allow people to fly something in the MA to stay in the game, rather than have nothing at all. Paying subscribers should not be at a loss to free gamers who get to utilize the better planes.
Post by: Ciaphas on December 18, 2019, 02:31:39 PM
GV's should be unlocked for the most part with perhaps a few limited vehicles reserved for sub'd players. maybe limit troops carrying to 5 for non subs and 10 for subs. 1000lb bombs and above reserved for subs and 500lb for non subs. unlock all weapons hard points for subs and limit non subs to a pair if wing hard points and for aircraft with 1 hard point limit them to small bombs or fuel only.
Give them a taste but not the full cake.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: fuzeman on December 18, 2019, 02:38:49 PM
I think they often mean a different type of 'fight' than the kind of duels in KOTH. It would be better they would use the term 'battle', because that's what they are often looking for.
I wouldn't call it a duel if at anytime a guy can come into the fight / engagement you are in which is what happens in KOTH. I won't ask where the duel idea was conjured up.
Thanks for the comment Violator.
All read, I'll keep the minor details out of an important topic.
Post by: Vraciu on December 18, 2019, 02:38:55 PM
Now you see why it won't work. You have the illusion that it will work.
semp
It may or may not work. If it had been a feature when the Steam rollout took place it would have definitely kept some people.
If it doesn't work you've lost nothing by trying.
Post by: Vraciu on December 18, 2019, 02:39:59 PM
Total lack of alternatives. Flight simulators existed, even including such with combat. Multipler games existed, even if most of them only for LAN games. Multipler LAN flight sims with combat ... none. And even if, the probability that friends usually LAN games are played with consider anything with flying is low.
I was already in Warbirds. So I had all the alternative I needed. We also had CFS.
Post by: Lusche on December 18, 2019, 02:41:48 PM
Only on page 2 but here I go...
I wouldn't call it a duel if at anytime a guy can come into the fight / engagement you are in which is what happens in KOTH. I won't ask where the duel idea was conjured up.
Yes you are right, I used the wrong term for what I meant.
Post by: TwinBoom on December 18, 2019, 02:47:46 PM
where does KOTH fit into this statement?
Remove Icons until then its just gang the better guys. teamed pickfest
remembers the BluKitty video
id play if icons were disabled
Post by: The Fugitive on December 18, 2019, 02:54:16 PM
Make a change for a month or two and gauge how it effects the game. If it has a negative impact restore it and try something else. At least you will have proven which ideas help and which dont.
As for the free planes in the MA, Im all for it. Even if it doesnt bring in any new subscriptions ( Im sure it will) if it adds another 100 players to the arena at all times its a huge win.
Staying with what we have, we KNOW is slowly killing the game. Why not try something else?
Post by: ccvi on December 18, 2019, 03:12:13 PM
I was already in Warbirds. So I had all the alternative I needed. We also had CFS.
Warbirds came at a price, and didn't have free arenas. Not sure about CFS, but finding people for a LAN session was probably difficult, and online-multiplayer probably didn't work with 3 clicks of the mouse, but needed to set up some kind of server? AH H2H otoh simply works, and was (is) free.
Post by: FLS on December 18, 2019, 03:20:48 PM
The point is something has to be done, right or wrong. ...
Right or wrong? Really?
An urgent need to do something that could be wrong?
Maybe you should sit this one out.
Post by: CptTrips on December 18, 2019, 03:23:58 PM
Staying with what we have, we KNOW is slowly killing the game. Why not try something else?
I believe there is a percentage of players who would perfectly be willing to see the game close in 2-5 years rather see a single significant change now.
They see any material change as the same thing as shutting it down anyway. Hitech's accountant might not share that view.
That's why I've said fine, freeze this one in carbonite, go do a different one.
Post by: FLS on December 18, 2019, 03:30:39 PM
It's the good idea that's lacking. Your analysis and arguments are weak.
Post by: Vraciu on December 18, 2019, 03:37:39 PM
Warbirds came at a price, and didn't have free arenas. Not sure about CFS, but finding people for a LAN session was probably difficult, and online-multiplayer probably didn't work with 3 clicks of the mouse, but needed to set up some kind of server? AH H2H otoh simply works, and was (is) free.
Worked just fine. I had zero interest in AH. Then on a lark tried 8-player. Did it for a short while. Left. Came back to it again. Stayed awhile. Tried the Main. Left awhile. Came back. Stayed for good.
Without the 8-player I would never have subscribed.
I'm sure Hitech can tell you to the penny how much revenue that I've paid him. It all started with something free with no time limit.
Post by: Vraciu on December 18, 2019, 03:38:33 PM
Right or wrong? Really?
An urgent need to do something that could be wrong?
Maybe you should sit this one out.
Yes, right or wrong. You can't know which it is until you try it.
Post by: CptTrips on December 18, 2019, 03:38:41 PM
Nobody is worried about change, that's one of your straw men.
It's the good idea that's lacking. Your analysis and arguments are weak.
Wiley has said exactly that. If you change it materially, it is the same as shutting it down.
Post by: Vraciu on December 18, 2019, 03:41:44 PM
Nobody is worried about change, that's one of your straw men.
It's the good idea that's lacking. Your analysis and arguments are weak.
There have been dozens of good ideas. What is lacking is the will to try them, right or wrong. Go bold or go cold. That's the choice here.
Post by: guncrasher on December 18, 2019, 04:02:29 PM
There have been dozens of good ideas. What is lacking is the will to try them, right or wrong. Go bold or go cold. That's the choice here.
You are right, dozens of good ideas and hi-tech implemented them, bad ones not so much.
By the way, why don't you guys read what hi-tech posts? A little while ago, he posted that he was warming up to something similar. Why not expand on that? Look up his posts and debate that. I think it was 1 month ago but not longer than 6.
Semp
Post by: The Fugitive on December 18, 2019, 04:04:16 PM
Right or wrong? Really?
An urgent need to do something that could be wrong?
Maybe you should sit this one out.
There is an urgent need to DO something. If it turns out to be wrong change it back and try something else. Does that make more sense to you? :rolleyes:
Post by: Max on December 18, 2019, 04:08:09 PM
Consider:
1. As someone recently said, he's made a killing on this game over the years.
2. Since inception, any change of any kind is met with a contingency of support, and a contingency of naysayers. No matter what, he loses customer base.
3. As income subsides, expenses need to be curtailed, i.e. less money for programmers, artists, customer support, etc.
3. HTC has the all the actual data he could possibly shake a stick at, and more but without the human resources needed to augment changes, what's the point.
4. Given the drop in revenues, new income streams (think revitalization via new capital investment) are null.
Frankly speaking, in the past few years there have been scores of ideas and reiteration of previous suggestions,which were mostly ignored. Probably for the fear that they might drive customers away. Now the die's been cast and resources are few to change the direction of a large ship, running out of fuel. Sooner or later the fuel tanks are empty and it will continue to drift. Would anyone disagree we're in the drift stage?
Post by: CptTrips on December 18, 2019, 04:12:15 PM
There is an urgent need to DO something. If it turns out to be wrong change it back and try something else. Does that make more sense to you? :rolleyes:
He is just trolling. That is all he does.
It's best to just ignore him.
Post by: hitech on December 18, 2019, 04:19:40 PM
There is an urgent need to DO something. If it turns out to be wrong change it back and try something else. Does that make more sense to you? :rolleyes:
Strange how some people are blind to the fact many things have changed in the last year. Including a new game with a new game play format.
HiTech
Post by: Vraciu on December 18, 2019, 04:27:17 PM
You are right, dozens of good ideas and hi-tech implemented them, bad ones not so much.
That's a massive overstatement on both counts.
Quote
By the way, why don't you guys read what hi-tech posts? A little while ago, he posted that he was warming up to something similar. Why not expand on that? Look up his posts and debate that. I think it was 1 month ago but not longer than 6.
Semp
Like Frye, we are trying to decide if he's serious or being sarcastic.
Post by: Wiley on December 18, 2019, 04:28:00 PM
There is an urgent need to DO something. If it turns out to be wrong change it back and try something else. Does that make more sense to you? :rolleyes:
Ok just for fun I'll play. Let's do something. Let's flip the switch that makes the MA 2 sided for a couple months. Poof. It's now 2 sided.
So after 2 months, HT goes "Oh crap. We had negligible new players and X% of my existing players left because of that!" IE- it doesn't work, so he unflips the switch and puts it back. Poof, it's now 3 sided again.
How many of the guys that left will return? I'd pretty much guarantee it would not be all of them. Does that make any kind of sense to you?
Whatever they try needs a reasonable chance of success. Hope doesn't cut it and it's not like changing stuff is risk free.
Wiley.
Post by: Vraciu on December 18, 2019, 04:30:36 PM
Strange how some people are blind to the fact many things have changed in the last year. Including a new game with a new game play format.
HiTech
Well, for what it's worth, I have no interest in that. I like what you've created in the Melee.
What's the response been to the new game? I honestly and seriously have no clue. Is it gaining traction?
Post by: Vraciu on December 18, 2019, 04:32:24 PM
Ok just for fun I'll play. Let's do something. Let's flip the switch that makes the MA 2 sided for a couple months. Poof. It's now 2 sided.
So after 2 months, HT goes "Oh crap. We had negligible new players and X% of my existing players left because of that!" IE- it doesn't work, so he unflips the switch and puts it back. Poof, it's now 3 sided again.
How many of the guys that left will return? I'd pretty much guarantee it would not be all of them. Does that make any kind of sense to you?
Whatever they try needs a reasonable chance of success. Hope doesn't cut it and it's not like changing stuff is risk free.
Wiley.
If he rolls out the change correctly, with a request for patience and goodwill from the player base I dare say there's enough loyalty for people to stick with it for a bit. Communication is key.
Post by: Vraciu on December 18, 2019, 04:34:31 PM
He is just trolling. That is all he does.
It's best to just ignore him.
:lipsrsealed:
Post by: Wiley on December 18, 2019, 04:52:26 PM
If he rolls out the change correctly, with a request for patience and goodwill from the player base I dare say there's enough loyalty for people to stick with it for a bit. Communication is key.
Maybe. Would you risk your meal ticket on my goodwill? I know I sure wouldn't risk mine on yours. There's enough varied people in here the response would not be unanimous no matter what he did.
Wiley.
Post by: guncrasher on December 18, 2019, 04:58:01 PM
Maybe. Would you risk your meal ticket on my goodwill? I know I sure wouldn't risk mine on yours. There's enough varied people in here the response would not be unanimous no matter what he did.
Wiley.
Naw the key word is correctly, if it fails is because it was not done correctly.
So after we switch back to 3 sides with less players, he'll come back asking for 2 sides done correctly.
semp
Post by: CptTrips on December 18, 2019, 05:01:54 PM
Ok just for fun I'll play. Let's do something. Let's flip the switch that makes the MA 2 sided for a couple months. Poof. It's now 2 sided.
So after 2 months, HT goes "Oh crap. We had negligible new players and X% of my existing players left because of that!" IE- it doesn't work, so he unflips the switch and puts it back. Poof, it's now 3 sided again.
I don't know what strawman you are channeling, but that was never my suggestion.
I suggested that the code should be refactored to run either configuration, like the way you can run a 512x or 256x or 64x map. I suggested once that was done, you could run a Two-Sided Tues for a month or two. 1 day a week. There rest of the time normal configuration. Then measure the player sentiment. If it is positive, maybe you run alternate weeks or a run of a couple of months if confidence is high. My suggestions was never to throw the switch all at once sink or swim. I always suggested you'd want to be able to run either. If number got back about 300-400 you'd be better off with 3-sides again.
But Hitech is amendment. It would apparently not be feasible to refactor the code anyway. So...there you go. I don't know about the bias part, but I can certainly understand it not being feasible to make such core logic changes from a purely practical standpoint.
But even an alternative suggestion of a 3-sided smaller test map with slightly shorter minimum field spacing and Semp throws himself on the ground flailing his arms and legs screaming we will destroy the game and we're trying to force our will on him blah blah blah.
Whatever.
Post by: Wiley on December 18, 2019, 05:14:27 PM
I don't know what strawman you are channeling, but that was never my suggestion.
I was responding to Fugi, not you. There's a lot of platitude "CHANGE OR DIE!!!" going on, but the problem with evolution is beneficial changes are what let things survive. Everybody's got their own idea what is beneficial.
Quote
I suggested that the code should be refactored to run either configuration, like the way you can run a 512x or 256x or 64x map. I suggested once that was done, you could run a Two-Sided Tues for a month or two. 1 day a week. There rest of the time normal configuration. Then measure the player sentiment. If it is positive, maybe you run alternate weeks or a run of a couple of months if confidence is high. My suggestions was never to throw the switch all at once sink or swim. I always suggested you'd want to be able to run either. If number got back about 300-400 you'd be better off with 3-sides again.
2 things about that- one day a week you're not going to get much meaningful out of it because it doesn't have time to play out over the course of a map rotation. Second, it's new and shiny so much like the WWI arena at first, there's motivation to check it out versus when it becomes the new default. Really it's the same thing as if you had the "2 side" and "3 side" arena running concurrently that you always say is unfair.
Quote
But Hitech is amendment. It would apparently not be feasible to refactor the code anyway. So...there you go. I don't know about the bias part, but I can certainly understand it not being feasible to make such core logic changes from a purely practical standpoint.
But even an alternative suggestion of a 3-sided smaller test map with slightly shorter minimum field spacing and Semp throws himself on the ground flailing his arms and legs screaming we will destroy the game and we're trying to force our will on him blah blah blah.
Whatever.
So, what exactly are you saying? Is the DCA Mafia the majority or not? If it is, then he can either cater to them or cater to the market today. My question is how successful will a WT clone with worse graphics be? I know what my money's on.
Wiley.
Post by: Zeta on December 18, 2019, 05:17:54 PM
I still think that if suddenly the word spread to the gaming community that this game was Free to all non-Americans for one year, we would be packed...and after time, that would bring in more paying customers here in America...in a very short time. I could easily see cumulative 500 player nights in the various forums. By the time the one year free term ended.....I could see 300 to 500 new paying customers. The hardest part would be guarding the doors.
Post by: CptTrips on December 18, 2019, 05:35:34 PM
I was responding to Fugi, not you. There's a lot of platitude "CHANGE OR DIE!!!" going on, but the problem with evolution is beneficial changes are what let things survive. Everybody's got their own idea what is beneficial.
Well, the current trend line is negative. Unless you believe the trend line will reverse itself magically, something will have to be changed to alter the output.
If the trend line continues unaltered, I don't see how it doesn't reach zero. Slowly, or all at once one day when you reach the colony collapse threshold.
If you don't want to call that Change-or-Die, then call it what ever your like.
The only other alternative is to believe in magic. I do not believe in magic.
2 things about that- one day a week you're not going to get much meaningful out of it because it doesn't have time to play out over the course of a map rotation. Second, it's new and shiny so much like the WWI arena at first, there's motivation to check it out versus when it becomes the new default. Really it's the same thing as if you had the "2 side" and "3 side" arena running concurrently that you always say is unfair.
I simply was suggesting a careful stepwise dose testing. I would start with one day a week:
a. to assuage the fears of the players who fear too much change at once. Anyone can put up with anything for one day.
b. to make sure the whole thing doesn't immediately collapse.
You shiny new object fear is irrelevant, since as I said, it should just be a configuration, if 3 months down the road you realize it was a mistake, you drop CraterMA back in and flip the config param back to 3-sides.
But again, this is all irrelevant. You are stuck with 3-sides.
So, what exactly are you saying? Is the DCA Mafia the majority or not?
As I said. He should freeze this project in carbonite exactly as-is, put it on a shelf and leave it until the last player is planted, and spend his time on new games.
Post by: FLS on December 18, 2019, 05:56:31 PM
There is an urgent need to DO something. If it turns out to be wrong change it back and try something else. Does that make more sense to you? :rolleyes:
That sounds like you don't understand hidden costs and unintended consequences.
Post by: Ciaphas on December 18, 2019, 06:21:01 PM
The interesting thing here is these types of threads always devolve in to chest thumping and stray way off course and it becomes difficult to follow posts about the original subject.
Dale stated that the key is retaining new players. It would appear that a little bit of research is needed on Dale's side with regard to the reason people have been leaving over the past few years and the reasons people download the game and the inability to convert those new players in to subs.
We can throw out our suggestions but does it really matter? Responses will just go down the path of nonconstructive conversation as they usually do.
Here is a question or two for those of you who float around the bbs but don't have a current sub:
What was the situation that made you cancel your sub?
What will it take to bring you back in to the sub fold?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Vraciu on December 18, 2019, 06:25:55 PM
Maybe. Would you risk your meal ticket on my goodwill? I know I sure wouldn't risk mine on yours. There's enough varied people in here the response would not be unanimous no matter what he did.
Wiley.
I’d rather do that than die on the vine.
Fortune favors the bold.
Post by: Vraciu on December 18, 2019, 06:27:52 PM
Naw the key word is correctly, if it fails is because it was not done correctly.
So after we switch back to 3 sides with less players, he'll come back asking for 2 sides done correctly.
semp
And you want to stay here and say everything’s rosy. Don’t change a thing. Then when we are out of players you’ll say, “It was the only choice.”
Remember: “If you don’t look at the bear he can’t eat you.” :rolleyes:
There’s a right way and a wrong way.
There are actually multiples of each.
Post by: TequilaChaser on December 18, 2019, 06:37:55 PM
Reading the replies back and forth is like watching the closing arguments before this vote Congress is fixing to have...
I know HiTech replies to some of these threads/posts....but when he does, it gives me the impression that his mind/thinking is already 4 to 6 months if not more further ahead thinking, than where everyone else posting is only caught up and replying to the current day/time.....
Post by: Vraciu on December 18, 2019, 06:52:53 PM
OK.....who yields their time to their next constitute? So that representative can get up on the "soap box" and tell/debate his/her thoughts on the matter....
Reading the replies back and forth is like watching the closing arguments before this vote Congress is fixing to have...
I know HiTech replies to some of these threads/posts....but when he does, it gives me the impression that his mind/thinking is already 4 to 6 months if not more further ahead thinking, than where everyone else posting is only caught up and replying to the current day/time.....
I was talking about where we are today six or seven years ago. Maybe more. Everyone told me things were just fine. I argued we better get ahead of it before we wind up where WBs went. I was mocked.
So here we are... Capt. Trips says he doesn’t believe in magic. Neither do I.
Now, someone did mention something about non-US players. What are the non-US markets with the most untapped gamers out there? China? Japan? India? Russia? A foreign-language version and website wouldn’t hurt to try... China’s per capita income is low. They may have other barriers. But it’s a huge market, especially if it is free to play. Could drive paying customers.
Post by: oboe on December 18, 2019, 07:14:46 PM
...What are the non-US markets with the most untapped gamers out there? China? Japan? India? Russia? A foreign-language version and website wouldn’t hurt to try... China’s per capita income is low. They may have other barriers. But it’s a huge market, especially if it is free to play. Could drive paying customers.
Got to be South Korea, I would think.
Post by: guncrasher on December 18, 2019, 07:25:13 PM
And you want to stay here and say everything’s rosy. Don’t change a thing. Then when we are out of players you’ll say, “It was the only choice.”
Remember: “If you don’t look at the bear he can’t eat you.” :rolleyes:
There’s a right way and a wrong way.
There are actually multiples of each.
Have I ever said I don't want change?
Your two sides idea has been around for a long time. You keep beating a dead horse even after it basically turned into mush and now you beating the ground where the horse died.
I mentioned to you months ago, there's a simple solution to test your idea and not lose anybody. Request another arena and call it two sided. Have one of the maps with one side disabled. Let people decide which arena they prefer. That would be your test. You didn't like it.
semp
Post by: Vraciu on December 18, 2019, 07:52:05 PM
Have I ever said I don't want change?
Your two sides idea has been around for a long time. You keep beating a dead horse even after it basically turned into mush and now you beating the ground where the horse died.
I mentioned to you months ago, there's a simple solution to test your idea and not lose anybody. Request another arena and call it two sided. Have one of the maps with one side disabled. Let people decide which arena they prefer. That would be your test. You didn't like it.
semp
That would not be a fair test as it would diminish both arenas. You cannot dilute the player base further.
The fair test is ceteris paribus, you run one by itself, then the other. Your idea violates the scientific method.
Three sides is not working. People are complaining. But we are going to ride THIS dead horse to the grave, shouting all the way that everything is grand.
So be it.
Post by: guncrasher on December 18, 2019, 08:23:55 PM
That would not be a fair test as it would diminish both arenas. You cannot dilute the player base further.
The fair test is ceteris paribus, you run one by itself, then the other. Your idea violates the scientific method.
Three sides is not working. People are complaining. But we are going to ride THIS dead horse to the grave, shouting all the way that everything is grand.
So be it.
Lol me thinks you are afraid to find out the two sided arena will be just as dead as the ava.
semp
Post by: mthrockmor on December 18, 2019, 08:27:53 PM
Boo
Post by: Vraciu on December 18, 2019, 08:35:39 PM
Lol me thinks you are afraid to find out the two sided arena will be just as dead as the ava.
semp
Me thinks you don't understand the concept of critical mass.
Post by: The Fugitive on December 18, 2019, 09:22:53 PM
Strange how some people are blind to the fact many things have changed in the last year. Including a new game with a new game play format.
HiTech
With the utmost respect, hows that working out for you?
I cant speak for the others voicing opinions here, but for myself I have been happily sending you my $15 every month for more than 18 years. I would love to continue doing so for another 20 years. I love this game! I would have sent you twice as much all those years, but I got in just after the price drop. That being said, lets talk about these updates.
A vast majority of the updates have been bug fixes (https://www.hitechcreations.com/company-info/news/40-software-updates) a gun elevation change, a couple HUD display changes and so on. Most have been behind the scenes with very little Upfront where the customer can SEE the new stuff. Lusche posted this chart (https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,397264.msg5269238.html#msg5269238) that shows we havent had an new plane or vehicle since tour 168, 5 years ago. Sure we have had a number of new maps from "Bustr", but from the customers point of view, thats it.
War Online: Pacific, of the 46 reviews posted on Steam most are "negative", granted some are from disgruntled Aces High players, but still not a great showing. War online: Pacific, most would have said would fail anyway as it is a "Furball" setup and so wouldn't hold many players attention for long. It is missing the richness of Aces High. You mentioned at one point that it may be setup to take/make bets of fights. We have seen nothing of this since.
The chart for those playing War Online: Pacific isnt coming up for some reason which showed that last time I check, very poor numbers, but here is one for Aces High https://steamcharts.com/app/651090#3m Granted it is only showing those that play THROUGH Steam, but it shows 75% less players since it opened 2 years ago on Steam.
Could it be the "flight" games are dying out? This chart shows a pretty steady increase for DCS World over the last 3 months https://steamcharts.com/app/223750#3m, or IL-2 Sturmovik https://steamcharts.com/app/307960#3m, so It looks like flight sims are ok. Again these are only showing what passes through Steam, but going by these numbers Aces High has 20x what is shown through Steam, what are the real numbers for DSC and IL-2? 20x there too?
I agree with you a 2 sided arena won't work, but If you run one once a week as say "Red Team", and "Blue Team" to do away with Rook, Knight, Bishop Nations you would have proof for this day and age that it doesnt work..... or would it work?
Adding a few free planes I dont think would be a huge programming issue (what do I know), but doing so for a couple of months wouldnt hurt anything. You are already covering the overhead of running the game, how many "free" players logging on could there be? Right? Certainly not enough to crash your new servers.
Either add in a "mission" program that has missions run in the MA, or hire a few players to run missions at prime times both US and Euro. Build some action in the arenas. Free players add numbers, missions add action. Action and number means more players having fun, generate more fun.
Post by: DmonSlyr on December 18, 2019, 10:20:54 PM
With the utmost respect, hows that working out for you?
I cant speak for the others voicing opinions here, but for myself I have been happily sending you my $15 every month for more than 18 years. I would love to continue doing so for another 20 years. I love this game! I would have sent you twice as much all those years, but I got in just after the price drop. That being said, lets talk about these updates.
A vast majority of the updates have been bug fixes (https://www.hitechcreations.com/company-info/news/40-software-updates) a gun elevation change, a couple HUD display changes and so on. Most have been behind the scenes with very little Upfront where the customer can SEE the new stuff. Lusche posted this chart (https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,397264.msg5269238.html#msg5269238) that shows we havent had an new plane or vehicle since tour 168, 5 years ago. Sure we have had a number of new maps from "Bustr", but from the customers point of view, thats it.
War Online: Pacific, of the 46 reviews posted on Steam most are "negative", granted some are from disgruntled Aces High players, but still not a great showing. War online: Pacific, most would have said would fail anyway as it is a "Furball" setup and so wouldn't hold many players attention for long. It is missing the richness of Aces High. You mentioned at one point that it may be setup to take/make bets of fights. We have seen nothing of this since.
The chart for those playing War Online: Pacific isnt coming up for some reason which showed that last time I check, very poor numbers, but here is one for Aces High https://steamcharts.com/app/651090#3m Granted it is only showing those that play THROUGH Steam, but it shows 75% less players since it opened 2 years ago on Steam.
Could it be the "flight" games are dying out? This chart shows a pretty steady increase for DCS World over the last 3 months https://steamcharts.com/app/223750#3m, or IL-2 Sturmovik https://steamcharts.com/app/307960#3m, so It looks like flight sims are ok. Again these are only showing what passes through Steam, but going by these numbers Aces High has 20x what is shown through Steam, what are the real numbers for DSC and IL-2? 20x there too?
I agree with you a 2 sided arena won't work, but If you run one once a week as say "Red Team", and "Blue Team" to do away with Rook, Knight, Bishop Nations you would have proof for this day and age that it doesnt work..... or would it work?
Adding a few free planes I dont think would be a huge programming issue (what do I know), but doing so for a couple of months wouldnt hurt anything. You are already covering the overhead of running the game, how many "free" players logging on could there be? Right? Certainly not enough to crash your new servers.
Either add in a "mission" program that has missions run in the MA, or hire a few players to run missions at prime times both US and Euro. Build some action in the arenas. Free players add numbers, missions add action. Action and number means more players having fun, generate more fun.
Nice post. I think we can all agree that AH is missing HYPE and enthusiasm. How many people do you know who even knew there was a new map? How many people know new skins are coming out? Why aren't there anouncements on the front page website for special events? Why aren't there any new videos on the front page website? It just seems odd to me. And I totally understand your point about updates people can see. (Those don't even get mentioned in front page website) (new maps -cough). I don't even know what 95% of the new updates even do in many of the game updates. I just wish Hitech had a bigger team for faster implementation and website marketing.
Anyway. Free spitVs and 109Fs for one hour a day.
Best idea yet! Get a new promo going on steam for Christmas.
Gold.
Post by: Drano on December 18, 2019, 10:22:38 PM
I came to AH as AW was dying. Not that it wasn't a great game but it was literally being killed off by a gaming company. Yaknow what I really liked most about the switch? That it was EVEN HARDER! There was more of everything and a harder flight model to deal with. More planes and vehicles. More events. Just..more.
In the heyday of multiple arenas to accommodate all the players it just couldn't get any better... Cont'd..
Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
Post by: atlau on December 18, 2019, 10:37:00 PM
That would not be a fair test as it would diminish both arenas. You cannot dilute the player base further.
The fair test is ceteris paribus, you run one by itself, then the other. Your idea violates the scientific method.
Three sides is not working. People are complaining. But we are going to ride THIS dead horse to the grave, shouting all the way that everything is grand.
So be it.
How would that not be a fair test? People could choose which one they prefer.
3 sided gives players more options. And for some noobies they need to be able to attack undefended bases to give them a achievable mission and help the "war effort"
Post by: bustr on December 18, 2019, 10:37:40 PM
How do you get anyone to bother when Gaijin has their player base covered that way? You want new people to stick their nose in the MA and maybe hang around and then talk to their friends about a new experience. Pick two fighters and make them free all the time in the MA. Not the best nor the worst and tag them to be immune to ENY if flown as a free account. I doubt a hoard of something average will swamp the sky's and even for vets with the way the MA works now, they will get clubbed by the existing late war monster, AltMonkey, ganging and HOing. That will remove the temptation to cancel accounts and play as free kills.
But actual 2 free rides in the MA 100% of the time on a free account as long as the 2 rides are a bit sucky should do the trick. Then do a big push to communicate it out to wherever and it cannot be any worse than the Steam players leaving inside of 10 minutes for good. Getting up and running in AH is not much harder than IL2. It's the $14.95 a month I always see spoken about and a big negative to even bothering.
Post by: Drano on December 18, 2019, 10:37:46 PM
I don't know what the answer might be to rejuvenating AH. I think the problem is what I've always loved about it and that is that it's just hard. GaMerZ today don't want to spend time learning this on the level you'd have to to get to be any good. They don't want to fly from one place to another waiting to get killed in 30 secs either. How do you get good right now? That's their hook. The answer to that would be dumbing everything down I'd think, but that would kill me off. I think that's been tried with the other version of AH and it still hasn't worked. I think we have a generational thing compounded by a niche thing. A tough nut for sure!
Whatever happens I'm still here.
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Post by: CptTrips on December 19, 2019, 12:13:29 AM
A vast majority of the updates have been bug fixes (https://www.hitechcreations.com/company-info/news/40-software-updates) a gun elevation change, a couple HUD display changes and so on. Most have been behind the scenes with very little Upfront where the customer can SEE the new stuff. Lusche posted this chart (https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,397264.msg5269238.html#msg5269238) that shows we havent had an new plane or vehicle since tour 168, 5 years ago. Sure we have had a number of new maps from "Bustr", but from the customers point of view, thats it.
What do you want the man to do? There are bugs that need to be fixed, and he is fixing them. Should he not fix the bugs? Do you think he is just lounging around the pool?
And new planes? How many planes are in the stable now? How many get flown on a daily basis? I can only imagine the amount work it take to add a new aircraft with all the control surfaces and damage modeling, animation rigging work. And then it will get flown one week and then forgotten. None of the new players trying the game give a squat if you have the Dewoitine D.520 or not. Once we have 500 players back in the arena, I hope you get every plane of your desire. I hope you get a new plane a week!
War Online: Pacific, of the 46 reviews posted on Steam most are "negative", granted some are from disgruntled Aces High players, but still not a great showing. War online: Pacific, most would have said would fail anyway as it is a "Furball" setup and so wouldn't hold many players attention for long. It is missing the richness of Aces High. You mentioned at one point that it may be setup to take/make bets of fights. We have seen nothing of this since.
Look. Let him try some stuff. He is obviously not allowed to try anything here. Let him try some stuff there. It is obviously not finish, but he can only spread himself around so thin. It doesn't really seem like my cup of tea yet. I was hoping for more of a Battlefield version of AH, but I'm just going to wait and see where he is taking it.
I agree with you a 2 sided arena won't work, but If you run one once a week as say "Red Team", and "Blue Team" to do away with Rook, Knight, Bishop Nations you would have proof for this day and age that it doesnt work..... or would it work?
I don't think that would work. I don't think the win the war logic would work properly.
Adding a few free planes I dont think would be a huge programming issue (what do I know),
I doubt programming is the problem. It is the modeling, UV texturing and rigging. And all that effort for putting in an obscure Italian or French plane in that would not add one single new paying customer.
Either add in a "mission" program that has missions run in the MA, or hire a few players to run missions at prime times both US and Euro. Build some action in the arenas. Free players add numbers, missions add action. Action and number means more players having fun, generate more fun.
Back when I was still trying to convince myself to find a way to tolerate the Melee, I thought I might go in with a six-pack and a clipboard and not fly, but do nothing but setup missions across the arena all night long. Sorta like a Dantoo for the Melee, but without the kewl accent. Battlefield had a similar thing with their commander mode, who coordinated squads and tasked supply drops for them and directed UAV coverage to assist certain attacks, etc. Pretty cool.
Then I decided it was just too hard to set up non-trivial missions before facts on the ground changed out from underneath you. And 98% of the players would just ignore the missions. The other 2% would tell you you are doing it all wrong. And the rest would just take off in the mission and go off and do whatever they wanted, ignoring the plan, and then blame you when things didn't work.
I decided it would probably just be more fun to go in the garage and start poking myself in the eye with a rusty nail. ;)
I may disagree with Hitech on the 2-side thing, but only in the narrow case of player numbers below 300'ish. That's one thing in a thousand.
It is important to keep in mind here that Hitech is not the enemy. The situation is the enemy. I assure you Hitech is doing everything humanly possible with the resources he has to work with. We all have had a long history here, but none of us want it to work more than he does. This is his rice bowl.
Post by: CptTrips on December 19, 2019, 12:24:00 AM
Anyway. Free spitVs and 109Fs for one hour a day.
However, neither Hitech or anyone else answered my question:
I like that idea too, but why doesn't the same attack made on the idea of a limited F2P plane set apply to this?
The argument would go like: "If they are not completing their 2-week trial, not even staying 5 min, what good is giving them x free minutes a day after their trial ends?"
Post by: Vraciu on December 19, 2019, 12:25:05 AM
How would that not be a fair test? People could choose which one they prefer.
3 sided gives players more options. And for some noobies they need to be able to attack undefended bases to give them a achievable mission and help the "war effort"
People will not switch away from where critical mass already exists. It's a well-known phenomenon that must be accounted for in order to have an unbiased experiment.
If the two-sided arena was the status quo people would not leave it for a three-sided one, either. The crowd is the crowd and it almost never moves.
It's really quite simple. Also irrelevant. I stopped talking about the number of sides used when Dale locked the other thread. We're discussing different things now.
Post by: bozon on December 19, 2019, 03:16:24 AM
However, neither Hitech or anyone else answered my question:
Quote
The argument would go like: "If they are not completing their 2-week trial, not even staying 5 min, what good is giving them x free minutes a day after their trial ends?"That is a good argument.
The issue with limited time trial is that it puts pressure on the players - and many don’t like that. Maybe they were busy and didn’t get to play much during the trial time? Maybe they lost some days on acquiring equipment like a stick? Maybe they just don’t want a looming deadline ahead of them? Who knows.
The advantage of F2P is that it puts 0 pressure on you when you try the game. You can install now, then go away on a vacation, go back to check the game when you are in the mood and have time. Especially in a game like AH that requires non standard equipment (stickas bare minimum), requires a lot of fiddling with setups, and has a very steep learning curve, taking it slow is a good thing.
Regarding the “non competitive free planes” argument- this really depends on the fraction of the F2P players out of the AH population. If 2/3 of the players are F2P, then the mostly fight other F2P players with similar equipment and similar (lack of) skill - this is fine. For a single F2P players out of 100 veterans subscribers, the experience will be very different.
F2P will not bring in thousands of players because of all the other reasons I detailed in my post way back in the thread. However, if this raises the probability of a player subscribing from 1:10,000 to 1:1,000 then that is a significant effect (numbers pulled out of my arse for illustration. The presenter is not a real statician).
What the game lacks the most right now is fresh players, even more than paying players.
I don’t believe F2P will be a huge success, but it may get the snow ball rolling again.
Post by: RAG on December 19, 2019, 03:55:04 AM
(just my own opinion which you dont have to listen to as it's not my business :cool: but i do know from my own business that i'm more likely to get an order from someone i have dealt with in the past than a total stranger...)
Post by: ccvi on December 19, 2019, 04:10:04 AM
"This game is hard. If you think you are special and it will be easy for you, you'll be in for a surprise. If you think even if it is hard you'll somehow manage anyway, you'll be in for a disapointment. Please make sure to schedule the start of your free 2 weeks during your vacation time because you are going to need it. Please consider scheduling sessions with the trainers.
Are you sure you want to start your 2 free weeks now? Type 'ACCEPT' into the box below to start you 2 free weeks:"
Post by: ccvi on December 19, 2019, 04:31:49 AM
This strategy might work for AH, too.
Post by: Oldman731 on December 19, 2019, 06:16:07 AM
A warning message should be shown before starting the 2 free weeks:
"This game is hard. If you think you are special and it will be easy for you, you'll be in for a surprise. If you think even if it is hard you'll somehow manage anyway, you'll be in for a disapointment. Please make sure to schedule the start of your free 2 weeks during your vacation time because you are going to need it. Please consider scheduling sessions with the trainers.
Are you sure you want to start your 2 free weeks now? Type 'ACCEPT' into the box below to start you 2 free weeks:"
Heh. I like it.
- oldman
Post by: FLS on December 19, 2019, 07:17:04 AM
We can throw out our suggestions but does it really matter? Responses will just go down the path of nonconstructive conversation as they usually do.
You have to ignore all the game changes resulting from forum suggestions and conversations to believe that.
The noisy idiots don't get their way. That's not a problem.
Post by: Ciaphas on December 19, 2019, 07:19:08 AM
You have to ignore all the game changes resulting from forum suggestions and conversations to believe that.
The noisy idiots don't get their way. That's not a problem.
That has nothing to do with what I was taking about. This thread is full of irrelevant chest thumping.
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Post by: FLS on December 19, 2019, 07:34:54 AM
That has nothing to do with what I was taking about. This thread is full of irrelevant chest thumping.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Good to know. :D
Post by: DmonSlyr on December 19, 2019, 08:15:18 AM
We are forgetting though the players who have left the game yet have fighting experience and skills. I have seen so many posts of people saying they are leaving or cant justify the $..... Imagine if an email went round to everyone who had ever registered/played AH saying 'Merry Christmas and congratulations you now have x number of minutes of free playing time a day/week in the MA.' I bet some oldies, semi interested newbs etc would poke their nose in for a quick skirmish - and who knows they may like it and stay.
(just my own opinion which you dont have to listen to as it's not my business :cool: but i do know from my own business that i'm more likely to get an order from someone i have dealt with in the past than a total stranger...)
Exactly.
An email promotion like that would go a LONG way.
It wouldn't hurt.
People want to see things happening and want to see that it's exciting with some enthusiasm. Right now we are like a F4U low n slow on the deck. Missing huge potential of the plane by taking the time to get some alt.
Post by: hitech on December 19, 2019, 10:51:50 AM
(just my own opinion which you dont have to listen to as it's not my business :cool: but i do know from my own business that i'm more likely to get an order from someone i have dealt with in the past than a total stranger...)
That is an incorrect analogy with a game like AH. Unless I would create a completely different game that was nothing like AH.
HiTech
Post by: The Fugitive on December 19, 2019, 11:06:58 AM
What do you want the man to do? There are bugs that need to be fixed, and he is fixing them. Should he not fix the bugs? Do you think he is just lounging around the pool?
And new planes? How many planes are in the stable now? How many get flown on a daily basis? I can only imagine the amount work it take to add a new aircraft with all the control surfaces and damage modeling, animation rigging work. And then it will get flown one week and then forgotten. None of the new players trying the game give a squat if you have the Dewoitine D.520 or not. Once we have 500 players back in the arena, I hope you get every plane of your desire. I hope you get a new plane a week!
Look. Let him try some stuff. He is obviously not allowed to try anything here. Let him try some stuff there. It is obviously not finish, but he can only spread himself around so thin. It doesn't really seem like my cup of tea yet. I was hoping for more of a Battlefield version of AH, but I'm just going to wait and see where he is taking it.
I don't think that would work. I don't think the win the war logic would work properly.
I doubt programming is the problem. It is the modeling, UV texturing and rigging. And all that effort for putting in an obscure Italian or French plane in that would not add one single new paying customer.
Back when I was still trying to convince myself to find a way to tolerate the Melee, I thought I might go in with a six-pack and a clipboard and not fly, but do nothing but setup missions across the arena all night long. Sorta like a Dantoo for the Melee, but without the kewl accent. Battlefield had a similar thing with their commander mode, who coordinated squads and tasked supply drops for them and directed UAV coverage to assist certain attacks, etc. Pretty cool.
Then I decided it was just too hard to set up non-trivial missions before facts on the ground changed out from underneath you. And 98% of the players would just ignore the missions. The other 2% would tell you you are doing it all wrong. And the rest would just take off in the mission and go off and do whatever they wanted, ignoring the plan, and then blame you when things didn't work.
I decided it would probably just be more fun to go in the garage and start poking myself in the eye with a rusty nail. ;)
I may disagree with Hitech on the 2-side thing, but only in the narrow case of player numbers below 300'ish. That's one thing in a thousand.
It is important to keep in mind here that Hitech is not the enemy. The situation is the enemy. I assure you Hitech is doing everything humanly possible with the resources he has to work with. We all have had a long history here, but none of us want it to work more than he does. This is his rice bowl.
I'm not trying to crap on Hitechs efforts here. I'm just pointing out that to the average customer there haven't been any meaningful updates to the game in years. Why should they bother to check it out again? To them. nothing has changed in years.
You also have misunderstood a few other things I wrote but I cant quote or highlight things very easily on my phone. Hell it's a chore to type with these big fingers on such a small keyboard .
Post by: ACE on December 19, 2019, 11:23:15 AM
Make a lot smaller maps for quicker time between flights. I don’t like autopiloting all the way to the fight for 10 mins.
My .2
Post by: bustr on December 19, 2019, 11:58:31 AM
Still, that will cut down on the time problem under Hitech's business model.
So which one of you geniuses will create the new terrain for him??????
Post by: CptTrips on December 19, 2019, 12:04:04 PM
So which one of you geniuses will create the new terrain for him??????
I absolutely volunteer to make him as many 2-sided maps as he wants of what ever size he fancies.
Give me a call any time Dale. ;)
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQWDdbtUjj9q8rYMb7xcTUW7e5914_DfSduMw1Ab929WEUBnd60vQ&s)
Post by: Vraciu on December 19, 2019, 12:06:23 PM
You have to ignore all the game changes resulting from forum suggestions and conversations to believe that.
The noisy idiots don't get their way. That's not a problem.
Calling people IDIOTS is a problem. I've been threatened with a ban for far less. Just saying.
Post by: Vraciu on December 19, 2019, 12:08:14 PM
Exactly.
An email promotion like that would go a LONG way.
It wouldn't hurt.
People want to see things happening and want to see that it's exciting with some enthusiasm. Right now we are like a F4U low n slow on the deck. Missing huge potential of the plane by taking the time to get some alt.
Email is not the solution. It gets marked as spam and the domain is flagged.
Post by: Vraciu on December 19, 2019, 12:11:40 PM
The core AH game(business model) is the sand box capture the flag game called the Melee arena. Since this game is capable of supporting 1000 players in that arena at the same time, terrains smaller than 10x10 is walking away from the business model and how it separates AH from other games. The same 10x10 can be constructed with an illusion of space while a reality of shorter distances. Time is the enemy of attention span these days in games. So reduce the minimum field distance to 13-15 miles. Vets will quickly get tenuous about furballing and up one feild back to do alt and run as usual. New people won't know any better and run over quickly to get clubbed by their tenuous betters. :rofl
Still, that will cut down on the time problem under Hitech's business model.
So which one of you geniuses will create the new terrain for him??????
I know I am always motivated to help out when called names. I'll get right on it.
I'll do a terrain when you do a NMF skin. Just one. Not dozens. How about that?
Post by: ccvi on December 19, 2019, 12:17:07 PM
... So reduce the minimum field distance to 13-15 miles. ...
So which one of you geniuses will create the new terrain for him??????
Scaling can probably be automated with sufficiently satisfactory results.
Post by: ACE on December 19, 2019, 12:20:02 PM
The core AH game(business model) is the sand box capture the flag game called the Melee arena. Since this game is capable of supporting 1000 players in that arena at the same time, terrains smaller than 10x10 is walking away from the business model and how it separates AH from other games. The same 10x10 can be constructed with an illusion of space while a reality of shorter distances. Time is the enemy of attention span these days in games. So reduce the minimum field distance to 13-15 miles. Vets will quickly get tenuous about furballing and up one feild back to do alt and run as usual. New people won't know any better and run over quickly to get clubbed by their tenuous betters. :rofl
Still, that will cut down on the time problem under Hitech's business model.
So which one of you geniuses will create the new terrain for him??????
Way to sell your point. Pretentious and condescending. Part of the problem.
Post by: hitech on December 19, 2019, 01:06:49 PM
I'm not trying to crap on Hitechs efforts here.
You may wish to go back and try read your posts.
Quote
With the utmost respect, hows that working out for you?
This statement is directly crapping on my efforts.
Read my previous post.
Quote
And this is the nut that needs to be cracked. I haven't found the correct nut cracker yet. But I can show you a huge pile of broken crackers.What do you think broken nut crackers are?
HiTech
Post by: Vraciu on December 19, 2019, 01:32:40 PM
You may wish to go back and try read your posts.
This statement is directly crapping on my efforts.
Read my previous post.What do you think broken nut crackers are?
HiTech
So why not multiple language support?
Is that a fantasy or something that can work?
Post by: Shuffler on December 19, 2019, 01:37:15 PM
So your opinions on the current competitive landscape are not particularly informed.
Yes... just on this game. Nothing else of interest.
Post by: Ciaphas on December 19, 2019, 01:39:03 PM
You may wish to go back and try read your posts.
This statement is directly crapping on my efforts.
Read my previous post.What do you think broken nut crackers are?
HiTech
Dale, what are your thoughts on trying to crack that nut?
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Post by: hitech on December 19, 2019, 01:43:50 PM
Dale, what are your thoughts on trying to crack that nut?
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Electrical and chemical impulses jumping between synaptic cells.
HiTech
Post by: Ciaphas on December 19, 2019, 01:46:19 PM
Electrical and chemical impulses jumping between synaptic cells.
HiTech
Have those impulses formed any ideas in your cerebrum?
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Post by: TequilaChaser on December 19, 2019, 01:46:41 PM
Post by: CptTrips on December 19, 2019, 02:00:33 PM
Have those impulses formed any ideas in your cerebrum?
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Advertising.
:bolt:
Post by: hitech on December 19, 2019, 02:06:42 PM
Have those impulses formed any ideas in your cerebrum?
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Yes.
HiTech
Post by: Meatwad on December 19, 2019, 02:17:14 PM
Now I have a full time job, family with grade school children, and mortgage/bills. With my hours I may only have 30 minutes of play time after work and unknown on my days off. When I resubbed and tried again, this is what happened:
Fire Up game, get in flight, 5 minutes later one of the kids come in and "Im booooored, get off the computer and PLAY!" (game time over)
Fire Up game, get in flight, 5 minutes later, wife comes in and says I need to get off computer for "insert reason". (game time over)
Fire Up game, get in flight, 5 minutes later, kids fight and wife says get off my butt and be helpful (game time ends)
Fire Up game, get in flight, 5 minutes later, one of the kids say "mooooom, dads playing a game on the computer!" Wife yells (game time over)
Fire Up game, get in flight, 5 minutes later, wife says "I dont need to spend my day off playing on the computer" (game time ends)
Fire Up game, get in flight, 5 minutes later, wife wants to go somewhere cause she is bored (game time over)
Now after everyone is asleep, I can get on and goof around, but a half hour may only get a few sorties before I have to get to bed before work again the next day.
My problem now is that I just really dont have the time to play and do something constructive at this point in life. $15 a month makes it hard to pay for something and not get my moneys worth out of it if I only play 5 hours a month
Post by: Wiley on December 19, 2019, 02:19:52 PM
Advertising.
:bolt:
Possibly in other languages. How is Google with "Texan to Mandarin"?
Wiley.
Post by: Vraciu on December 19, 2019, 02:20:28 PM
Advertising.
:bolt:
Scotch! :banana: :bolt:
Post by: Vraciu on December 19, 2019, 02:21:53 PM
I am one of them that has been lost. When I first started I was single and in college, then stopped then started back over again for college degree. I had all the time in the world to play for hours a day.
Now I have a full time job, family with grade school children, and mortgage/bills. With my hours I may only have 30 minutes of play time after work and unknown on my days off. When I resubbed and tried again, this is what happened:
Fire Up game, get in flight, 5 minutes later one of the kids come in and "Im booooored, get off the computer and PLAY!" (game time over)
Fire Up game, get in flight, 5 minutes later, wife comes in and says I need to get off computer for "insert reason". (game time over)
Fire Up game, get in flight, 5 minutes later, kids fight and wife says get off my butt and be helpful (game time ends)
Fire Up game, get in flight, 5 minutes later, one of the kids say "mooooom, dads playing a game on the computer!" Wife yells (game time over)
Fire Up game, get in flight, 5 minutes later, wife says "I dont need to spend my day off playing on the computer" (game time ends)
Fire Up game, get in flight, 5 minutes later, wife wants to go somewhere cause she is bored (game time over)
Now after everyone is asleep, I can get on and goof around, but a half hour may only get a few sorties before I have to get to bed before work again the next day.
My problem now is that I just really dont have the time to play and do something constructive at this point in life. $15 a month makes it hard to pay for something and not get my moneys worth out of it if I only play 5 hours a month
Time to get a girlfriend! :old:
Post by: Ciaphas on December 19, 2019, 02:23:26 PM
Possibly in other languages. How is Google with "Texan to Mandarin"?
Wiley.
Which Texas dialect are we talking about? There are somethings google can't translate
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Post by: Ciaphas on December 19, 2019, 02:25:04 PM
Time to get a girlfriend! :old:
I was in a 10 yr marriage with a woman like that. Never again will I live with someone who feels the need to dictate my existence.
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Post by: Wiley on December 19, 2019, 02:25:37 PM
Time to get a girlfriend! :old:
Do you have any idea what those cost? And it's not like you get more than 5 hours of use out of them a month. Definitely a worse value for the dollar.
Wiley.
Post by: Vraciu on December 19, 2019, 02:26:35 PM
I was in a 10 yr marriage with a woman like that. Never again will I live with someone who feels the need to dictate my existence.
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Same here. Now I have two girlfriends who do what I say. :rofl
Post by: Ciaphas on December 19, 2019, 02:28:35 PM
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Post by: Biggamer on December 19, 2019, 02:28:44 PM
what if we put a 15 mile ring around a base and if a enemy enter the ring it starts capturing the base the ring around the base starting filling up and once full you take the base the only way to stop it would be have the same amount of defenders up in the ring as the attackers if there is just one less defender than attacker then the ring starts filling again so either you up and fight or lose the base this could help channel the masses to one area. might be a bad idea but its an idea.
Post by: Wildin on December 19, 2019, 02:32:25 PM
Post by: Vraciu on December 19, 2019, 02:36:24 PM
How much do they charge? :devil
Way too much!
If it flies, floats, or . . . it's cheaper to rent it! :banana:
Post by: ccvi on December 19, 2019, 02:42:07 PM
So why not multiple language support?
Is that a fantasy or something that can work?
Cheap translation can end up comical (proof: https://youtu.be/8fvTxv46ano (https://youtu.be/8fvTxv46ano)). Communication in the arena requires some English anyway.
Keyboard adjusted on-screen instructions would help. With no joystick connected on auto-take-off a message says press "<SHIFT> = (plus sign)" to increase throttle. The problem is that on some keyboards = and + aren't on the same key, and the key that needs to be pressed is "´".
The message does not appear if any kind of stick-like thing is connected, even if no throttle is mapped (e.g., message does not appear if only pedals (no throttle) are connected).
The result is noobs sitting on the runway for a few minutes, then disappearing.
Post by: Wiley on December 19, 2019, 02:48:37 PM
Cheap translation can end up comical (proof: https://youtu.be/8fvTxv46ano (https://youtu.be/8fvTxv46ano)). Communication in the arena requires some English anyway.
Keyboard adjusted on-screen instructions would help. With no joystick connected on auto-take-off a message says press "<SHIFT> = (plus sign)" to increase throttle. The problem is that on some keyboards = and + aren't on the same key, and the key that needs to be pressed is "´".
The message does not appear if any kind of stick-like thing is connected, even if no throttle is mapped (e.g., message does not appear if only pedals (no throttle) are connected).
The result is noobs sitting on the runway for a few minutes, then disappearing.
I'd be more concerned with tech support. Guy phoning in looking for help getting his joystick to work in Korean or Russian might be a bit of a difficult situation for Dale.
I suppose "Have you tried turning it off and on again" in multiple languages could be put on a phonetic cheat sheet.
Wiley.
Post by: Max on December 19, 2019, 02:50:45 PM
Same here. Now I have two girlfriends who do what I say. :rofl
Flippz doesn't count :devil
Post by: SPKmes on December 19, 2019, 02:56:24 PM
Post by: CptTrips on December 19, 2019, 03:07:53 PM
so now we are back to three sides?
Yes, but we are trying a different theme to see if it appeals to the market more:
(https://images2.minutemediacdn.com/image/upload/c_fill,g_auto,h_1248,w_2220/f_auto,q_auto,w_1100/v1555321935/shape/mentalfloss/stooges_primary.jpg)
Post by: Vraciu on December 19, 2019, 03:08:52 PM
Flippz doesn't count :devil
:rofl
Post by: ccvi on December 19, 2019, 03:10:52 PM
I'd be more concerned with tech support.
Have you tried calling Blizzard, EA, or whatever other game company for tech support? It is not on the list of expected services.
Post by: Vraciu on December 19, 2019, 03:11:29 PM
Yes, but we are trying a different theme to see if it appeals to the market more:
(https://images2.minutemediacdn.com/image/upload/c_fill,g_auto,h_1248,w_2220/f_auto,q_auto,w_1100/v1555321935/shape/mentalfloss/stooges_primary.jpg)
Something related to machines of high performance...
https://cdn1.benzinga.com/files/imagecache/1024x768xUP/pep.jpg
(https://cdn1.benzinga.com/files/imagecache/1024x768xUP/pep.jpg)
Post by: Meatwad on December 19, 2019, 03:13:52 PM
Do you have any idea what those cost? And it's not like you get more than 5 hours of use out of them a month. Definitely a worse value for the dollar.
Wiley.
Depends on how good in bed she is :bolt:
Post by: Vraciu on December 19, 2019, 03:16:05 PM
Do you have any idea what those cost? And it's not like you get more than 5 hours of use out of them a month. Definitely a worse value for the dollar.
Wiley.
Indirect usage counts.
Laundry.
Dishes.
Dusting.
Running errands.
:rofl
Post by: CptTrips on December 19, 2019, 03:16:14 PM
:rofl
I'm already building a terrain:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/rkg15ps798bv98c/moeland.png?raw=1)
Post by: Vraciu on December 19, 2019, 03:16:57 PM
Depends on how good in bed she is :bolt:
Truth! :old:
Post by: Oldman731 on December 19, 2019, 03:37:20 PM
Now after everyone is asleep, I can get on and goof around, but a half hour may only get a few sorties before I have to get to bed before work again the next day.
This is true (or at one time was true) for many of us. Half an hour is all you get, and that may only be three or four days a week. So far as I'm concerned, it's still worth the money ($2.00/hour? Less?), but it does mean that you aren't particularly interested in flying a bomber across the map, cleverly planning the conquest of the virtual world, or flying ten minutes to a capped base. You want some prompt action, which you can repeat over that cherished half hour of your day.
- oldman
Post by: Mister Fork on December 19, 2019, 03:53:37 PM
This is true (or at one time was true) for many of us. Half an hour is all you get, and that may only be three or four days a week. So far as I'm concerned, it's still worth the money ($2.00/hour? Less?), but it does mean that you aren't particularly interested in flying a bomber across the map, cleverly planning the conquest of the virtual world, or flying ten minutes to a capped base. You want some prompt action, which you can repeat over that cherished half hour of your day.
- oldman
+1 on that OM. For more and more of us now, all we do is strap on our VR goggles, up from a close base, and have a blast flying around for a half-hour or so. Or on Monday evenings visit the AvA for some of the best pilot to pilot combat you'll see in the game.
Post by: The Fugitive on December 19, 2019, 04:25:35 PM
You may wish to go back and try read your posts.
This statement is directly crapping on my efforts.
Read my previous post.What do you think broken nut crackers are?
HiTech
Im sorry you took it that way as it was not meant that way.
My comment "With the utmost respect, hows that working out for you?" meant exactly that.....
With the utmost respect.......
1. did the release of War Online: Pacific generate the same interest as AH when you released it?
2. did you get the population numbers you were hoping for?
3. will there be more coming for that game?
4. I know you said that wasnt the purpose, but did it generate any more crossover interest to AH?
5. is the gambling option still a possibility?
in general, hows it working out? I was honestly interested it whether or not it has met your expectations. Personally I dont think it has and thats a shame after all the time and effort you put into it.
As for the nut crackers, I have seen many break, many work as advertised and a few even bite you back, but experimentation is the only way your going to know for sure whether an idea is going to work out or not.
Post by: bbosen on December 19, 2019, 05:02:04 PM
Here is a question or two for those of you who float around the bbs but don't have a current sub:
What was the situation that made you cancel your sub?
What will it take to bring you back in to the sub fold?
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I wrote A LOT of offline or "staged" missions for AH2, and got discouraged when AH3 came out without enough backward-compatibility to support any of them.
When AH3 demanded a more powerful computer, I didn't want to spend the money. There were several reasons for this, but the primary one was that I have SO MANY computers that would have needed the upgrade. When at home, I was switching back and forth between 3 desktop PCs. When on the road, I was switching back and forth among two different laptops. I had also given cheap, used laptops to four grandsons and was trying to get them interested in AH, and they were dabbling in AH2's free H2H mode (using old version 2.12.4 on my LAN). Those laptops could support AH2 pretty well, but they just couldn't run AH3 well enough to keep them interested.
Ultimately it was easier for me to just write my own free combat flight sim for LINUX ("Linux Air Combat"). It will never be as feature-rich as AH3 but it will never cost me anything either.
To bring me back, AH would need to support the rich library of old offline or "staged" missions on low-cost hardware.
Post by: 100Coogn on December 19, 2019, 05:07:28 PM
I wrote A LOT of offline or "staged" missions for AH2, and got discouraged when AH3 came out without enough backward-compatibility to support any of them.
Ditto!
Coogan
Post by: CptTrips on December 19, 2019, 05:08:13 PM
I wrote A LOT of offline or "staged" missions for AH2, and got discouraged when AH3 came out without enough backward-compatibility to support any of them.
Your Youtube series on Staged Missions were very helpful.
:salute
Post by: Meatwad on December 19, 2019, 05:30:46 PM
This is true (or at one time was true) for many of us. Half an hour is all you get, and that may only be three or four days a week. So far as I'm concerned, it's still worth the money ($2.00/hour? Less?), but it does mean that you aren't particularly interested in flying a bomber across the map, cleverly planning the conquest of the virtual world, or flying ten minutes to a capped base. You want some prompt action, which you can repeat over that cherished half hour of your day.
- oldman
Generally for me it was leaving a nice trail of smoke before hitting the ground. Planes dont fly good while missing parts (Should of joined SAPP). But overall it was fun, just dont have time like I wish I did
Post by: TequilaChaser on December 19, 2019, 05:30:58 PM
But I honestly think there is a misunderstanding regarding AH2 vs AH3, where people think that AH3 requires a more powerful computer.....when in reality AH3 only requires a better possibly more powerful videocard only! and that's only true if you want to turn up the graphics!
AH2 relied heavily on CPU, that flipped with AH3 to where the CPU load became a lot less and the GPU load increased substantially (again, if you want the graphics turned up)
I was in the Alpha & Beta testing of AH3 and testing 3 to 5 different computers
I was able to play AH3 on an old AMD dual-core 555 (3.2 GHz if I remember correctly) using Windows 7 ult. 64 bit and 8 GB system ram, videocard was an ASUS HD3870 512MB GDDR4..... Default GPU settings I could play around 28 fps upwards to near 40......(edit: this particular CPU was only using 1 CPU core playing AH2 and AH3)
There is a lot of misconception regarding what it takes computer-wise to run AH3
You had a lot of self-created staged missions/offline missions and other stuff, and I can understand the frustration of the incompatibility of AH3 not able to load/use all the stuff you created
YMMV
~S~
TC
Post by: CptTrips on December 19, 2019, 05:38:31 PM
You had a lot of self-created staged missions/offline missions and other stuff, and I can understand the frustration of the incompatibility of AH3 not able to load/use all the stuff you created
I had successfully hand-converted a couple of Coogan's old broken missions he had loaned me the source on to experiment with. I believe it is possible.
His biggest problems was that the terrain he had targeted had been redone and things moved around and so you could get the mission to function, but would take a lot of work to rearrange things again. Some other terrains may have never made the conversion at all.
Seeing that taught me one lesson. I'll never put a lot of work into missions where I don't control the terrain file.
:salute
Post by: TequilaChaser on December 19, 2019, 05:49:38 PM
I had successfully hand-converted a couple of Coogan's old broken missions he had loaned me the source on to experiment with. I believe it is possible.
His biggest problems was that the terrain he had targeted had been redone and things moved around and so you could get the mission to function, but would take a lot of work to rearrange things again. Some other terrains may have never made the conversion at all.
Seeing that taught me one lesson. I'll never put a lot of work into missions where I don't control the terrain file.
:salute
Yes, controlling or having access to the "terrain source files" is a big deal, if a person is wanting to update or make changes to a particular terrain....Dux taught me that well over 15 years ago...heh
Post by: bbosen on December 19, 2019, 07:43:33 PM
No offense bbosen,
But I honestly think there is a misunderstanding regarding AH2 vs AH3, where people think that AH3 requires a more powerful computer.....when in reality AH3 only requires a better possibly more powerful videocard only! and that's only true if you want to turn up the graphics!
Well, yes. I have read about people that were able to get adequate AH3 performance on somewhat marginal hardware. But my situation is unique: I abandoned Micro$oft Windows many years ago. I had AH2 running spendidly under the LINUX "wine" emulator, but every attempt to do so with AH3 was disappointing. Maybe it is better now (wine has improved a lot) but it just didn't work for me when I struggled with it. I even got a personal phone call from Dale with advice on the subject. He even (very kindly) offered to send me ONE computer, at his expense, to solve the problem, but for one reason or another that never came about.
Ultimately, in view of my commitment to LINUX, I chose a different direction, hoping my creation of a LINUX combat flight sim wouldn't compete with Dale's Windows-based business.
Post by: bustr on December 20, 2019, 02:23:01 PM
One of the differences between AH2 and AH3 I think was Hitech capped FPS at 60 in AH2 so we all pretty much saw the same frames and developed the same muscle memory. With AH3 the graphics engine supports FPS of what, 144 or is it 240? My 24in monitor from AH2 capped at 60hz with 5ms latency.
Recently I started playing PlanetSide 2 which is intensely FPS dependent if you want to win any gunfight. My 60hz monitor was getting me killed 100% of the time even though my video card could give me 144 or better FPS. So I was forced to buy a 165Hz 1ms latency Gaming Monitor. In PS2 it was like night and day and I salughtered red guys with impunity. Funny the next time I flew in AH3, my FPS was 165 and all my AH2 learned gunnery muscle memory worked when I shot at people. Makes me wonder how many players left for this same reason while I was building terrains.
Post by: avionix on December 20, 2019, 02:47:40 PM
Post by: TequilaChaser on December 20, 2019, 02:55:09 PM
So my 60Hz monitor is going to be an issue even though I have a decent video card?
Not at all
Post by: TequilaChaser on December 20, 2019, 03:18:38 PM
Your mentioning that you have designed/coded your very own "Linux Air Combat Simulator/Game" sounds awesome and I'm intrigued, is it private for your personal use with your kids or have you hosted it anywhere as "open source" if you don't mind me asking..... Just curious....
:salute
TC
Post by: Lusche on December 20, 2019, 03:25:25 PM
So my 60Hz monitor is going to be an issue even though I have a decent video card?
After some field of view adjustments, there was no much difference in my gunnery between AH2 and AH3 on my 60Hz monitor.
Post by: Shuffler on December 20, 2019, 03:55:33 PM
I am one of them that has been lost. When I first started I was single and in college, then stopped then started back over again for college degree. I had all the time in the world to play for hours a day.
Now I have a full time job, family with grade school children, and mortgage/bills. With my hours I may only have 30 minutes of play time after work and unknown on my days off. When I resubbed and tried again, this is what happened:
Fire Up game, get in flight, 5 minutes later one of the kids come in and "Im booooored, get off the computer and PLAY!" (game time over)
Fire Up game, get in flight, 5 minutes later, wife comes in and says I need to get off computer for "insert reason". (game time over)
Fire Up game, get in flight, 5 minutes later, kids fight and wife says get off my butt and be helpful (game time ends)
Fire Up game, get in flight, 5 minutes later, one of the kids say "mooooom, dads playing a game on the computer!" Wife yells (game time over)
Fire Up game, get in flight, 5 minutes later, wife says "I dont need to spend my day off playing on the computer" (game time ends)
Fire Up game, get in flight, 5 minutes later, wife wants to go somewhere cause she is bored (game time over)
Now after everyone is asleep, I can get on and goof around, but a half hour may only get a few sorties before I have to get to bed before work again the next day.
My problem now is that I just really dont have the time to play and do something constructive at this point in life. $15 a month makes it hard to pay for something and not get my moneys worth out of it if I only play 5 hours a month
Family ack...... Importance FAMILY. Enjoy it while you can. They grow up so fast. :aok
Post by: FLS on December 20, 2019, 04:01:52 PM
...
One of the differences between AH2 and AH3 I think was Hitech capped FPS at 60 in AH2 so we all pretty much saw the same frames and developed the same muscle memory. ...
AH2 wasn't capped.
And I doubt the player experience was ever that homogeneous.
I wonder if higher fps or lower latency is the bigger difference in your improved shooting or if they combine to improve visual hit detection.
Post by: Shuffler on December 20, 2019, 04:03:41 PM
AH2 wasn't capped.
And I doubt the player experience was ever that homogeneous.
I wonder if higher fps or lower latency is the bigger difference in your improved shooting or if they combine to improve visual hit detection.
I think it is more a combination of Tequila and Triple-sec.
Post by: bustr on December 20, 2019, 05:44:01 PM
Once I changed monitors and my FPS in AH3 was 165, all my muscle memory shooting from AH2 works exactly like it did then. And now the famous flippity floppy maneuvering by Yak3 and Doras is just slow rolls and postivie G pushes of the nose which gets them killed for slowing down like that.
Many of the old ferts who supported AH2 who have left us with AH3 and bitter complaints about game play issues like rubber bullets and flippity floppy. The simple answer is the change in game engine was more than they probably could afford to upgrade for a kiddy game with the state of the economy when AH3 went live. The answers are usually this simple made complicated by people who need complication to fulfill their world views. You know that cognitive bias that screws how scientists bias their outcomes to fit their world views. And then the answers stop mattering while the world view becomes the reason to fight senselessly. And in our case, kill Aces High.
Post by: popeye on December 20, 2019, 06:06:02 PM
So my 60Hz monitor is going to be an issue even though I have a decent video card?
If it is a GeForce card, you can set the refresh to "fast". Even though the monitor is 60Hz the vid card can render frames faster and will display the most recent frame when the monitor is ready to refresh. That will minimize latency. Also, I went from a 60Hz monitor (using the "fast" refresh) to a 144Hz G-Sync monitor and really don't see much difference in AH.
Post by: Vraciu on December 20, 2019, 06:15:23 PM
Instead of trying to burn me at the stake, how many people had similar problems who canceled their subscriptions becasue of the flippity floppy, rubber bullets, weird tank combat and so on? Stop trying to kill the messenger and think about why we lost so many when the game changed over in the simplest terms possible becasue that will be much closer to the truth.
...
These are the only kills some people can manage. :cheers:
Post by: ccvi on December 20, 2019, 06:48:27 PM
Instead of trying to burn me at the stake, how many people had similar problems who canceled their subscriptions becasue of the flippity floppy, rubber bullets, weird tank combat and so on?
The players remaining have been here much longer than what could be reasonably expected for players of any normal computer game. The problem is that there are no new players.
Once I changed monitors and my FPS in AH3 was 165, all my muscle memory shooting from AH2 works exactly like it did then. And now the famous flippity floppy maneuvering by Yak3 and Doras is just slow rolls and postivie G pushes of the nose which gets them killed for slowing down like that.
Are any calculations (physics of the own plane and bullets, or guesstimates of other planes based on data received, or ...) running at screen refresh frequency? I doubt it.
Higher frequency simply allows for a faster control loop hands -> stick -> computer -> screen -> eyes -> brain -> hands -> ...
Post by: guncrasher on December 20, 2019, 07:01:00 PM
It's like me, every once in a while I can't see the monitor, so I move closer till I figure out my wife switched my computer glasses and reading glasses and both are on similar frames.
semp
Post by: ccvi on December 21, 2019, 04:09:48 AM
... till I figure out my wife switched my computer glasses and reading glasses and both are on similar frames.
Different glasses for reading and computers? Colored heat shrink wrap might solve that.
I've found mobile glasses quite useful. Well, actually I'm near sighted enough to just take off any glasses for toying with a mobile screen.
Post by: guncrasher on December 21, 2019, 01:39:42 PM
semp
Post by: Toad on December 22, 2019, 09:47:30 AM
I was here from initial Beta until the Fall of 2014. Flew way too many hours in the early years. What great fun it was. Was down to single digit hours towards the end.
Why? I think because I'm an action junkie.
Early times, it was non-stop air combat. Even if I got shot down, I could get back in the fight in the blink of an eye. To me, the fun was the non-stop action; the engagement, the shooting.
As time went on things were implemented that slowed down the action. Bases farther apart, strateegery, hardened towns, etc. I understand the larger crowds. Nonetheless, for me the great times were when a base could be taken and then re-taken pretty quickly. The front was ever changing. A small squad could NOE a rear base and the fight was on.
Basically, the action was just too slow for me. Interest waned while droning around on A/P heading for a fight. Guess that was it. Not sure anything can be done now. But damn...those were great days....with great squaddies. It will always be a fond memory. Friends I made on this game are STILL great friends.
Thanks, HT.
Post by: Puma44 on December 22, 2019, 10:06:45 AM
Post by: Toad on December 22, 2019, 10:20:23 AM
However, right now I'm in one of those life situations. Cross country move in progress, house to sell, blah, blah, blah.
The new place is rural...not too sure of the 'gaming quality' internet available. I think about the only choice is going to be one of those "fixed wireless" companies. Not sure if it will be good enough. I don't want laggy gameplay; not worth it. We will see.
Once things get settled, I'll probably take a peek. Not that my um....err....previously lightning like reflexes and eagle-eyed vision have aged well.....I'm sure I'll make a great, easy target!
Post by: Vraciu on December 22, 2019, 11:13:24 AM
As time went on things were implemented that slowed down the action. Bases farther apart, strateegery, hardened towns, etc. I understand the larger crowds. Nonetheless, for me the great times were when a base could be taken and then re-taken pretty quickly. The front was ever changing. A small squad could NOE a rear base and the fight was on.
This was the thing in WBs I really loved. I could de-ack a small field in one pass with 1000lb bombs in a P-38L if I hit the right spots. Two sides. (No, I'm not going there, just painting the picture.) Fronts ebbing and flowing. It really made the game feel more dynamic. You could literally see where the war was moving on your (full-screen) map. Loved that aspect.
Post by: popeye on December 22, 2019, 11:53:56 AM
The new place is rural...not too sure of the 'gaming quality' internet available. I think about the only choice is going to be one of those "fixed wireless" companies. Not sure if it will be good enough. I don't want laggy gameplay; not worth it. We will see.
Also in a rural area and connect through a Verizon cell "hotspot". Pings 120ish with solid net status. Never accused of lagging online.
Post by: Toad on December 22, 2019, 01:10:41 PM
The area IS very well covered by Verizon which I use. Maybe that work better than fixed wireless. Time will tell.
Post by: Vraciu on December 22, 2019, 01:53:39 PM
Thx, Popeye.
The area IS very well covered by Verizon which I use. Maybe that work better than fixed wireless. Time will tell.
Messiah used to play via cellphone. Worked well for him.
Post by: Puma44 on December 22, 2019, 02:02:58 PM
Puma....yeah, I still "feel the need, the need for....furball!" :)
However, right now I'm in one of those life situations. Cross country move in progress, house to sell, blah, blah, blah.
The new place is rural...not too sure of the 'gaming quality' internet available. I think about the only choice is going to be one of those "fixed wireless" companies. Not sure if it will be good enough. I don't want laggy gameplay; not worth it. We will see.
Once things get settled, I'll probably take a peek. Not that my um....err....previously lightning like reflexes and eagle-eyed vision have aged well.....I'm sure I'll make a great, easy target!
Good luck with the move. Hope you can get reasonable internet running in time. By the way, everyone in the AvA Monday nights is a target. :rofl
Post by: DmonSlyr on December 22, 2019, 03:09:42 PM
Toad, have you tried out Monday Night Madness in the AvA? It’s pretty much non stop action. There were 20 dog fighters in this last Monday. It’s starts at 2000 EST. Come git some and try it out! :salute
This is sorta what I imagined with a full time fighter bowl on a map similar to the AvA. I love MNM, but it is so hard for me to play on Monday. Wish there was an arena similar to it that was packed like that all of the time.
Post by: Ramesis on December 22, 2019, 03:54:39 PM
Puma....yeah, I still "feel the need, the need for....furball!" :)
Agreed! I still play though having a couple of strokes and (I'm told) a heart attack... but I
continue to plug away
Not near as good as I was (wasn't very good anyway) but AH provides me with the idea that
I will get better :aok
Post by: DaddyAce on December 22, 2019, 04:30:38 PM
P....
The new place is rural...not too sure of the 'gaming quality' internet available. I think about the only choice is going to be one of those "fixed wireless" companies. Not sure if it will be good enough. I don't want laggy gameplay; not worth it. We will see.
.....
Verizon wireless normally works well enough for me in rural Montana mountains. Hope you return to give it a try! :salute :airplane: :airplane:
Post by: Shuffler on December 22, 2019, 11:41:13 PM
Post by: Vraciu on December 23, 2019, 12:03:58 AM
I seem to be the target on Monday Night Madness. It is a blast. Lots of laughs and great fun.
When you fly an airplane with a bumper sticker on it that says, "Poke me here!" well......... :banana:
Post by: Puma44 on December 23, 2019, 08:32:00 AM
This is sorta what I imagined with a full time fighter bowl on a map similar to the AvA. I love MNM, but it is so hard for me to play on Monday. Wish there was an arena similar to it that was packed like that all of the time.
That’s what the AvA has the immediate potential of being, if players would go in and use it vs the typical whining of the maps are two big, there are three sides, the sides are lopsided, etc, etc, etc. It’s great nonstop action, there for the taking.
Post by: CptTrips on December 23, 2019, 09:30:28 AM
It’s great nonstop action, there for the taking.
You mean MNM, I assume? I've never seen anyone in there any other time.
I'm not really sure how much MNM fits into the historical map/historical plane-set Historical AO, AvA was intended for, but whatever works for you.
If people are having fun, roll with it. ;)
It's sorta like running Pawn Stars on the History Channel. :D
I know what the problem is, the AvA is only two sides. Have they considered changing it to AvAvA? :noid
:salute
Post by: Vraciu on December 23, 2019, 09:50:01 AM
That’s what the AvA has the immediate potential of being, if players would go in and use it vs the typical whining of the maps are two big, there are three sides, the sides are lopsided, etc, etc, etc. It’s great nonstop action, there for the taking.
People don’t want an AvA. They want a Melee. Many want a two-sided Melee. AvA is neither.
Post by: Vraciu on December 23, 2019, 09:50:52 AM
You mean MNM, I assume? I've never seen anyone in there any other time.
I'm not really sure how much MNM fits into the historical map/historical plane-set Historical AO, AvA was intended for, but whatever works for you.
If people are having fun, roll with it. ;)
It's sorta like running Pawn Stars on the History Channel. :D
I know what the problem is, the AvA is only two sides. Have they considered changing it to AvAvA? :noid
:salute
One of these days I need to buy you a beer. :cheers: You crack me up. :rofl
Post by: Puma44 on December 23, 2019, 10:03:48 AM
You mean MNM, I assume? I've never seen anyone in there any other time.
I'm not really sure how much MNM fits into the historical map/historical plane-set Historical AO, AvA was intended for, but whatever works for you.
If people are having fun, roll with it. ;)
It's sorta like running Pawn Stars on the History Channel. :D
I know what the problem is, the AvA is only two sides. Have they considered changing it to AvAvA? :noid
:salute
Have you tried MNM?
Post by: CptTrips on December 23, 2019, 10:22:03 AM
Have you tried MNM?
I have nothing against the MNM. I'm glad you guys enjoy it. With the declining numbers, I support anything people have fun with.
I was just always confused how it fit into the AvA mission, as opposed to simply running it in an SEA. Isn't it really just an Event?
When I was trying to come up with a list of interesting AvA matchups for the 4x4 missions I basically went through a bunch of the past posts of AvA setups to steal their pairing.
In the process I got sucked in to reading the whole saga of the CT/AvA evolution over a decade. All the drama, all the spectacle. It was an interesting story arc. Like a Shakespearean tragedy.
:salute
Post by: DaddyAce on December 23, 2019, 11:18:06 AM
Post by: CptTrips on December 23, 2019, 11:21:28 AM
and of course miss the days when we had 2 MA's, and sometimes you couldn't even neccessarily jump in to join your squaddies at the moment because one of the MA's would be completely full.
LoL. I hated it at the time, but I'd love to have enough players to have that problem again. :D
Post by: ccvi on December 23, 2019, 11:42:35 AM
...when we had 2 MA's, and sometimes you couldn't even neccessarily jump in to join your squaddies at the moment because one of the MA's would be completely full.
They never were completely full, but limited only artificially to force a distribution of players.
Post by: Bixby on December 23, 2019, 02:59:42 PM
Post by: Vraciu on December 23, 2019, 03:07:13 PM
They never were completely full, but limited only artificially to force a distribution of players.
:headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch:
Post by: ccvi on December 23, 2019, 03:42:09 PM
:headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch:
The limits of the colored arenas weren't fixed. When they were evenly filled limits were set with free room in both. When things got lopsided the higher one was "full" but only until the lesser filled one caught up and both limits increased. This forced a balancing during low-power times. It was still more per arena than today, but a negative impact of halved numbers was noticeable. I doubt the limits visible during peak times were the hard limits, they would simply increase further with increasing player numbers.
Post by: Vraciu on December 23, 2019, 04:30:35 PM
The limits of the colored arenas weren't fixed. When they were evenly filled limits were set with free room in both. When things got lopsided the higher one was "full" but only until the lesser filled one caught up and both limits increased. This forced a balancing during low-power times. It was still more per arena than today, but a negative impact of halved numbers was noticeable. I doubt the limits visible during peak times were the hard limits, they would simply increase further with increasing player numbers.
For the life of me I do not understand the logic of this setup. What would be wrong with one giant arena? Was there no ENY back then?
Post by: Wiley on December 23, 2019, 04:40:17 PM
For the life of me I do not understand the logic of this setup. What would be wrong with one giant arena? Was there no ENY back then?
The stated reason at the time was HT was finding retention was better with the split and the relatively smaller numbers because people didn't feel as attached to the community when the numbers were too high in the arena, where split in half they weren't feeling quite as much just a cog in the machine.
I never understood it, but I realized long ago I am not like a lot of other people. Also, I may have been a lot more used to being a faceless minion in an online game than most of the community here at the time.
Wiley.
Post by: Max on December 23, 2019, 04:43:09 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5C6X9vOEkU&t=27s
Post by: ccvi on December 23, 2019, 04:57:32 PM
For the life of me I do not understand the logic of this setup. What would be wrong with one giant arena? Was there no ENY back then?
I do believe I remember that it was an attempt to create more dependencies between people. 500 players do not know eachother, lower numbers do. And when people do know eachother, they are probably going to stay longer. But due to the limits noone was flying always blue or always orange, so it didn't create a tighter coupling between fewer people.
It had nothing to do with country-balancing.
ENY would not balace different arenas. Unless the good stuff would have been available in the lower populated one only, which wasn't the case. I think at that time no ENY country-balancing was in place (except perk-modifiers), and rooks were always outnumbered except during RJO, and had slightly higher country k/d. Back than the stats page provided country specific data.
Differences between countries perceived today (bish hordes, rooks never below ISS orbit) were much more visible before the ENY limiter. Not related to split arenas.
Post by: Lusche on December 23, 2019, 04:58:12 PM
The limits of the colored arenas weren't fixed. When they were evenly filled limits were set with free room in both. When things got lopsided the higher one was "full" but only until the lesser filled one caught up and both limits increased. This forced a balancing during low-power times. It was still more per arena than today, but a negative impact of halved numbers was noticeable. I doubt the limits visible during peak times were the hard limits, they would simply increase further with increasing player numbers.
Supplement:
This balancing was active for about 12 hours of the day. During offpeak hours the balancing was not enforced, and everyone met up in LWO, with only like 5-15 players in LWB (mostly milkrunning for score).
When Euro prime time (19:00 CET) arrived, the arena caps set in, so you could not enter LWO anymore until LWB reached ~80 (100?) players at which point LWO limit was raised. A typical login screenshot would have looked like this: LWO 165/100 LWB 25/150.
Like many others, I always tried to get into LWO before 19:00 CET when the caps kicked in...
At first, it took like 45-60 minutes for LWO to gather momentum, but as player numbers went down in later years, that took longer and longer (2 hours+)
But while almost universally hated by those players affected by it, AH overall player numbers still increased for about 2 years after the multi arena setup was introduced.
Post by: DmonSlyr on December 23, 2019, 10:31:40 PM
Supplement:
This balancing was active for about 12 hours of the day. During offpeak hours the balancing was not enforced, and everyone met up in LWO, with only like 5-15 players in LWB (mostly milkrunning for score).
When Euro prime time (19:00 CET) arrived, the arena caps set in, so you could not enter LWO anymore until LWB reached ~80 (100?) players at which point LWO limit was raised. A typical login screenshot would have looked like this: LWO 165/100 LWB 25/150.
Like many others, I always tried to get into LWO before 19:00 CET when the caps kicked in...
At first, it took like 45-60 minutes for LWO to gather momentum, but as player numbers went down in later years, that took longer and longer (2 hours+)
But while almost universally hated by those players affected by it, AH overall player numbers still increased for about 2 years after the multi arena setup was introduced.
While it may have appeared that the #s increased. It was new names that entered. Many of the squads began to slowly die out as they couldn't fly with each other any longer. I thought it was an absolutely terrible decision at the time. I knew it wasn't going to end well. It absolutely amazes me that those squads have disappeared, never to return. Really makes you wonder...
I have nothing against the MNM. I'm glad you guys enjoy it. With the declining numbers, I support anything people have fun with.
I was just always confused how it fit into the AvA mission, as opposed to simply running it in an SEA. Isn't it really just an Event?
When I was trying to come up with a list of interesting AvA matchups for the 4x4 missions I basically went through a bunch of the past posts of AvA setups to steal their pairing.
In the process I got sucked in to reading the whole saga of the CT/AvA evolution over a decade. All the drama, all the spectacle. It was an interesting story arc. Like a Shakespearean tragedy.
:salute
AvA is not really a mission based event. It's fly at your own will arena. It would be exactly like the MA with 2 sides, shorter bases, and more closely balanced planes. There's also shorter icon ranges as well, which makes it really cool. It would be such a fun arena to fly in if the #s would pick up in it every night. I think if there was a map like the old Smog 8 map of AH2. It might work out better. IMO it's a great arena that just can't get an average stream of players on it per day.
The MNM is an attempt to get people in there. It's a fight at your own pace, quick action, take off and fight, close quarters furballing arena. One of my fav furballing arenas of all time. Something to up the pace a bit from the MA. Something that AH is desperately missing.
Post by: Ciaphas on December 24, 2019, 01:55:17 AM
I would have a check ride for the three aircraft play types: 1. Fighter 2. Attack and 3. Bombers
After looking at the interface that warbirds 2018 uses, I felt like I was on a 3.5 machine. AH3's interface feels like a Ferrari compared to that game but it could still use some clean up.
I think this alone would help people stay in the game for at least the two week trial.
:salute
Post by: Saxman on December 24, 2019, 09:00:20 AM
I decided to head over to the joke that is warbirds 2018 to have a look around. The only thing that game did almost right was the check ride at the very beginning. While the controls seemed archaic compared to AH3, the training was enough to get me in the air, shoot something down and then land again. I think that something like this is would be a value added update for AH3.
I would have a check ride for the three aircraft play types: 1. Fighter 2. Attack and 3. Bombers
After looking at the interface that warbirds 2018 uses, I felt like I was on a 3.5 machine. AH3's interface feels like a Ferrari compared to that game but it could still use some clean up.
I think this alone would help people stay in the game for at least the two week trial.
:salute
There should be an "opt out" on any such thing, though. Flight sims are universal enough that there's no need to for an experienced player to sit through such a tutorial. When I was scoping out War Thunder last month that was one of the biggest annoyances. Accessing any mode for the first time requires you to complete a "training course," which was not only unnecessary because I've been flying flight sims of SOME sort for 30-odd years, but the implementation was AWFUL (every time the instructor chimed in it paused the screen, screwed with your controls, and it breaks the VR head position, and doesn't allow you to recenter).
Post by: Ciaphas on December 24, 2019, 09:54:39 AM
There should be an "opt out" on any such thing, though. Flight sims are universal enough that there's no need to for an experienced player to sit through such a tutorial. When I was scoping out War Thunder last month that was one of the biggest annoyances. Accessing any mode for the first time requires you to complete a "training course," which was not only unnecessary because I've been flying flight sims of SOME sort for 30-odd years, but the implementation was AWFUL (every time the instructor chimed in it paused the screen, screwed with your controls, and it breaks the VR head position, and doesn't allow you to recenter).
Flight sims are not universal in their implementation other than the flight stick.
For an opt out it would have have a min hour requirement from time of check ride implementation in to the game.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Saxman on December 24, 2019, 10:04:44 AM
Flight sims are not universal in their implementation other than the flight stick.
For an opt out it would have have a min hour requirement from time of check ride implementation in to the game.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Other than the menu layouts and learning the out-of-flight interface I've yet to play a flight sim that I couldn't load up, set up my control mappings, deadbands, etc., and hop right into flying. Anything else is just learning the individual aircraft's instruments, power settings, etc. I don't need to sit through yet ANOTHER tutorial about how to take off, land, etc.
Post by: Ciaphas on December 24, 2019, 10:19:16 AM
Other than the menu layouts and learning the out-of-flight interface I've yet to play a flight sim that I couldn't load up, set up my control mappings, deadbands, etc., and hop right into flying. Anything else is just learning the individual aircraft's instruments, power settings, etc. I don't need to sit through yet ANOTHER tutorial about how to take off, land, etc.
You seem to forget that something like this wouldn't be for you anyway. This is about new players and retaining them. Why do you guys think everything is about you? Did you not read the rest of what I posted? let me word it better for the people in the back:
if you have x number of hours at the time of "check ride" implementation, you will have the option to opt out. If you do not have x number of hours at implementation, you will have to complete the "check ride" and after completion you wouldn't be asked to complete it again.
.... .
Post by: CptTrips on December 24, 2019, 10:33:48 AM
Flight sims are not universal in their implementation other than the flight stick.
For an opt out it would have have a min hour requirement from time of check ride implementation in to the game.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I agree that for the vast majority of players trying the game, going through a basic orientation is critical to getting enjoyment out of your 2-week trial. If you are experienced, you ought to be able to whip through them quickly. If you are not, there is no point spawning Melee until you can get through the check ride.
Thinking out loud....
Perhaps there is a "Check Ride" separate from the "Training Missions". The "Check-Ride" is like an advanced placement test. It has no instruction, just a set of gated tasks and a time limit. Like maybe:
1. Goto Hangar
2. Select a P-51D, 50% fuel, 2x100lb GP
3. Take off on N runway.
4. Xmit "launched" on help channel.
5. Navigate to ground target marked on map.
6. Hit target with bombs. (A nice big building or something easy.)
7. Xmit "target destroyed" on country channel.
8. Locate nearby patrolling AI drone fighter with map and radar.
9. Engage and kill target.
10. Xmit "target destroyed" on range channel.
8. Return to base and land successfully.
9. End flight.
10. Time limit = 6 min from tower start to back in tower (just making up a number)
If you are a returning player and can blow through that in the time limit, you are good to go.
If you can't complete that in the time allotted, there are a set of training missions you can go through to get you up to speed.
To sweeten the deal, new players are no longer given any perk points by default. However they can earn wads of perk points for each of the training missions they successfully complete.
Pull, not push.
$0.02,
CptTrips
Post by: Wiley on December 24, 2019, 10:41:52 AM
I agree that for the vast majority of players trying the game, going through a basic orientation is critical to getting enjoyment out of your 2-week trial. If you are experienced, you ought to be able to whip through them quickly. If you are not, there is no point spawning Melee until you can get through the check ride.
Thinking out loud....
Perhaps there is a "Check Ride" separate from the "Training Missions". The "Check-Ride" is like an advanced placement test. It has no instruction, just a set of gated tasks and a time limit. Like maybe:
1. Goto Hangar
2. Select a P-51D, 50% fuel, 2x100lb GP
3. Take off on N runway.
4. Xmit "launched" on help channel.
5. Navigate to ground target marked on map.
6. Hit target with bombs. (A nice big building or something easy.)
7. Xmit "target destroyed" on country channel.
8. Locate nearby patrolling AI drone fighter with map and radar.
9. Engage and kill target.
10. Xmit "target destroyed" on range channel.
8. Return to base and land successfully.
9. End flight.
10. Time limit = 6 min from tower start to back in tower (just making up a number)
If you are a returning player and can blow through that in the time limit, you are good to go.
If you can't complete that in the time allotted, there are a set of training missions you can go through to get you up to speed.
To sweeten the deal, new players are no longer given any perk points by default. However they can earn wads of perk points for each of the training missions they successfully complete.
Pull, not push.
$0.02,
CptTrips
Rather than gate it that way, why not do all of that, and show them the buttons to press to accomplish those tasks as they're doing them rather than making them go through the missions? That's exactly what I think would work best to get people up to speed. It's short, it gives them the info they need and gets them into the MA action fast. Also have a button on the interface or pause menu that lets you redo it if you forget.
Wiley.
Post by: Ciaphas on December 24, 2019, 10:42:20 AM
I agree that for the vast majority of players trying the game, going through a basic orientation is critical to getting enjoyment out of your 2-week trial. If you are experienced, you ought to be able to whip through them quickly. If you are not, there is no point spawning Melee until you can get through the check ride.
Thinking out loud....
Perhaps there is a "Check Ride" separate from the "Training Missions". The "Check-Ride" is like an advanced placement test. It has no instruction, just a set of gated tasks and a time limit. Like maybe:
1. Goto Hangar
2. Select a P-51D, 50% fuel, 2x100lb GP
3. Take off on N runway.
4. Xmit "launched" on help channel.
5. Navigate to ground target marked on map.
6. Hit target with bombs. (A nice big building or something easy.)
7. Xmit "target destroyed" on country channel.
8. Locate nearby patrolling AI drone fighter with map and radar.
9. Engage and kill target.
10. Xmit "target destroyed" on range channel.
8. Return to base and land successfully.
9. End flight.
10. Time limit = 6 min from tower start to back in tower (just making up a number)
If you are a returning player and can blow through that in the time limit, you are good to go.
If you can't complete that in the time allotted, there are a set of training missions you can go through to get you up to speed.
To sweeten the deal, new players are no longer given any perk points by default. However they can earn wads of perk points for each of the training missions they successfully complete.
Pull, not push.
$0.02,
CptTrips
There should only be one training/check ride. Give them essential training by implementing the old "monkey see, monkey do" process and that's it. I like the number list items that you have and I also agree that there should be a reward for finishing the training. Perhaps, for new players, unlock a couple of perk rides for a week. New accounts that have not finished their two week trial should be forced to complete the training/check ride regardless of how many years they have playing flight sims. if their two week trial is over, make it a list item on the landing menu of the game.
Post by: CptTrips on December 24, 2019, 11:07:25 AM
Rather than gate it that way, why not do all of that, and show them the buttons to press to accomplish those tasks as they're doing them rather than making them go through the missions? That's exactly what I think would work best to get people up to speed. It's short, it gives them the info they need and gets them into the MA action fast. Also have a button on the interface or pause menu that lets you redo it if you forget.
Wiley.
I was thinking of two edge cases.
1. Newbie Bob never flown a flight sim, has no idea what you're talking about.
2. Returning AH veteran.
It's just going to take a whole crap load of explanation of everything to a Bob that you don't want the veteran to have to sit though. The veteran just needs to test out in the minimal amount of time to unlock the melee. Bob doesn't even understand how to make a plane go in a different direction.
If you try and lump it all together, you either short shrift Bob, or bore the vet to tears.
$0.02.
Post by: Wiley on December 24, 2019, 11:13:07 AM
I was thinking of two edge cases.
1. Newbie Bob never flown a flight sim, has no idea what you're talking about.
2. Returning AH veteran.
It's just going to take a whole crap load of explanation of everything to a Bob that you don't want the veteran to have to sit though. The veteran just needs to test out in the minimal amount of time to unlock the melee. Bob doesn't even understand how to make a plane go in a different direction.
If you try and lump it all together, you either short shrift Bob, or bore the vet to tears.
$0.02.
I disagree. A few minute "these are the controls you need to do stuff" isn't going to kill the vet, and add in a bit of "press this key/pull back on the stick once you reach 120mph" type stuff in case Bob literally has absolutely no concept of how an aircraft works it will get them both reasonably up to speed. It doesn't add much time, and it does the appropriate amount of rubbing Bob's face in the information. Have the training missions as an option for Bob if he feels he needs more after that.
Wiley.
Post by: CptTrips on December 24, 2019, 11:22:41 AM
I disagree. A few minute "these are the controls you need to do stuff" isn't going to kill the vet, and add in a bit of "press this key/pull back on the stick once you reach 120mph" type stuff in case Bob literally has absolutely no concept of how an aircraft works it will get them both reasonably up to speed. It doesn't add much time, and it does the appropriate amount of rubbing Bob's face in the information. Have the training missions as an option for Bob if he feels he needs more after that.
Wiley.
I disagree with your disagreement.
Did you not read Saxman's post? I kinda agree with him to a point. If I was a returning vet, I would be really annoyed to have to sit through explanation of what roll, yaw, and pitch are.
So what is the downside of having a simple streamlined check ride as an express option? That could also server as the final exam for players who have gone through the more in depth training.
Post by: Ciaphas on December 24, 2019, 11:24:03 AM
I disagree with your disagreement.
Did you not read Saxman's post? I kinda agree with him to a point. If I was a returning vet, I would be really annoyed to have to sit through explanation of what roll, yaw, and pitch are.
So what is the downside of having a simple streamlined check ride as an express option? That could also server as the final exam you players who have gone through the more in depth training.
So, why not base the requirement to complete on in game hours and whether or not the player is on their two week trial?
Post by: Saxman on December 24, 2019, 11:29:43 AM
So HARD NO on a mandatory tutorial.
Post by: Wiley on December 24, 2019, 11:32:36 AM
I disagree with your disagreement.
Did you not read Saxman's post? I kinda agree with him to a point. If I was a returning vet, I would be really annoyed to have to sit through explanation of what roll, yaw, and pitch are.
So what is the downside of having a simple streamlined check ride as an express option? That could also server as the final exam for players who have gone through the more in depth training.
Regardless of whether it's a vet or a person who's barely seen a computer before, a "skip" button would let either of them run past the stuff they know. The vet can get by it if he doesn't need it and it is much faster and more intuitive for the new guy.
Wiley.
Post by: CptTrips on December 24, 2019, 11:35:45 AM
So, why not base the requirement to complete on in game hours and whether or not the player is on their two week trial?
So, let's make sure we are on the same page....
Comments Hitech has made in the past suggest to me he is wanting a minimal training/validation system to ensure they have the minimal set of skills before being allowed into the Melee for the first time.
So I'm assuming they have zero hours in the Melee. Are you talking about hours in an offline arena?
The other basic issue is that hours doesn't not necessarily equate to knowledge. I could have spent 6 hours in the offline terrain trying again and again to take off and never succeeded. Maybe I'm really dumb, yet really relentless. ;) I have 6 hours now, yet no more understanding than when I started. How do hours prove you know anything?
Post by: CptTrips on December 24, 2019, 11:37:51 AM
So HARD NO on a mandatory tutorial.
You'll have to take that up with The Man.
;)
Post by: CptTrips on December 24, 2019, 11:42:34 AM
Regardless of whether it's a vet or a person who's barely seen a computer before, a "skip" button would let either of them run past the stuff they know. The vet can get by it if he doesn't need it and it is much faster and more intuitive for the new guy.
Wiley.
We'll have to agree to disagree.
I don't see any downside to having a separate streamlined express option for veterans. I think it would go a long way to minimizing the griping from returning players.
:salute
Post by: Ciaphas on December 24, 2019, 11:47:48 AM
So, let's make sure we are on the same page....
Comments Hitech has made in the past suggest to me he is wanting a minimal training/validation system to ensure they have the minimal set of skills before being allowed into the Melee for the first time.
So I'm assuming they have zero hours in the Melee. Are you talking about hours in an offline arena?
The other basic issue is that hours doesn't not necessarily equate to knowledge. I could have spent 6 hours in the offline terrain trying again and again to take off and never succeeded. Maybe I'm really dumb, yet really relentless. ;) I have 6 hours now, yet no more understanding than when I started. How do hours prove you know anything?
When the "new guy" loads up the game and goes through the check ride, they will have zero hours in the MA. The training should take place regardless of the arena they enter before they are left to their own devices. The training is just as advertised, a quick start "monkey see, monkey do" guide to getting in the air, shoot something, bomb something and landing. I don't believe that "new" guys should be allowed to enter the MA until they have completed this training/check ride.
As it stands now, you are 100% correct, hours do not equal knowledge because the average new guy could spend an hour and never get off the ground. Hence the reason for the mandatory training on all "new" accounts. If your account is not "new" then there should be nothing to worry about and the training should not affect you. If you are one of the unfortunate "veterans" that somehow lost their sign in information and you have to create a new account, you should have no problem completing the training that should be no long than 5-10 minutes.
I would say to them that they kind of need to suck it up and press on and stop taking things personal. Companies put training at the beginning of games to ensure that you understand the basic skills the way they have implemented them prior to getting stuck in. This is not an insult at your intellect, it's simply a way that a company ensures that you have the basic set of skills and knowledge to play the game. If they catered a game to each individual that played it, the game would never get a release date and the company would go out of business fast.
Post by: Wiley on December 24, 2019, 11:54:14 AM
We'll have to agree to disagree.
I don't see any downside to having a separate streamlined express option for veterans. I think it would go a long way to minimizing the griping from returning players.
:salute
And what I'm saying is why bother creating two systems when it can be used for both, with a far more streamlined process for the new guy, and be skippable by either if they don't want it? I'm more concerned with the new guy. The vet can live through hitting a skip button.
I mean yes, it's possible they're going to have never seen a computer game before in their lives but I think what you described would be ideal for a new person who's likely got something resembling a grasp of how a game works and likely has a rudimentary inkling of how an airplane works.
Wiley.
Post by: CptTrips on December 24, 2019, 11:59:22 AM
As it stands now, you are 100% correct, hours do not equal knowledge because the average new guy could spend an hour and never get off the ground. Hence the reason for the mandatory training on all "new" accounts. If your account is not "new" then there should be nothing to worry about and the training should not affect you. If you are one of the unfortunate "veterans" that somehow lost their sign in information and you have to create a new account, you should have no problem completing the training that should be no long than 5-10 minutes.
OK. I think I see what you are saying. You were talking about players reopening an account under their previous handle so they would have hours in the Melee. Yeah, I don't even think you need to look at the hours. If an account has logged into the Melee for any amount of time before this is implemented, they should not be forced to go through training, even if it was for 5 minutes. They should be grandfathered in. You can't take away something they already had the day before. That would be rude. ;)
New accounts that have never logged into the Melee, are subject to the check ride/training.
:salute
Post by: Lusche on December 24, 2019, 12:03:54 PM
New accounts that have never logged into the Melee, are subject to the check ride/training.
IIRC, almost every time I 'returned', I made a new account. :headscratch:
Post by: CptTrips on December 24, 2019, 12:07:01 PM
And what I'm saying is why bother creating two systems when it can be used for both, with a far more streamlined process for the new guy, and be skippable by either if they don't want it? I'm more concerned with the new guy. The vet can live through hitting a skip button.
It is not creating two "Systems". It is one simple mission with some triggers. I'll volunteer to create it if Hitech feels over burdened by the option. It is such a small thing that could really help soften the griping from returning shades that are annoyed to have to deal with any of it.
Post by: CptTrips on December 24, 2019, 12:12:04 PM
IIRC, almost every time I 'returned', I made a new account. :headscratch:
I know you can call and at least get your old handle. I never bothered, so I'm not familiar with the process. I take you can't get your old stats.
Maybe at that time they get their old handle back, Hitech can flip the bit that exempts them from a check ride.
Returning players are our lowest hanging fruit. Annoying them (especially at the very start) should be minimized as much as possible.
If they are returning under a shade, well there is nothing that can be done other than having a streamlined express check-ride that they could blow through in a couple of minutes.
:salute
Post by: guncrasher on December 24, 2019, 12:23:52 PM
semp
Post by: Lusche on December 24, 2019, 12:27:03 PM
I know you can call and at least get your old handle.
There was no need for that, I could also get my old handle with a new account.
Post by: Ciaphas on December 24, 2019, 12:31:18 PM
The point of the matter, is Hitech needs to convert downloads to subs. I'm sure there are far more downloads then there are ex players. If a vet is going to throw a fit about a training mission they are a part of the problematic nature of AH. The whole mentality of add this or take away this and I'll quit is garbage. Not saying that Lusche or Saxman have said that but it has been said plenty of times on these boards by others.
Get over yourselves, Dale has a business to run and the only way that business will succeed is by converting downloads to subs. There are no other gray areas involved, it literally boils down to that.
Post by: CptTrips on December 24, 2019, 12:36:15 PM
There was no need for that, I could also get my old handle with a new account.
I didn't know that. I'm probably dating myself. I know at one time many thousands of years ago, if you left and came back, your old handle was locked out. You had to call and ask for it to be switched over to your new account.
They may have improved that over the decades. ;)
Post by: guncrasher on December 24, 2019, 12:42:08 PM
I didn't know that. I'm probably dating myself. I know at one time many thousands of years ago, if you left and came back, your old handle was locked out. You had to call and ask for it to be switched over to your new account.
They may have improved that over the decades. ;)
I think it's locked for 30 days then it's fair game. semp was my ID in aw, when I switched to ah somebody else had it, waited a couple of years till one day it was available, so I got it.
semp
Post by: CptTrips on December 24, 2019, 01:12:50 PM
Get over yourselves, Dale has a business to run and the only way that business will succeed is by converting downloads to subs. There are no other gray areas involved, it literally boils down to that.
Well, yes. All the more reason to not piss anyone off more than necessary.
The training/check-ride isn't meant as a punishment or a hazing. It is intended to help and make the experience more productive for players that need it.
If possible, you should not force a returning vet to jump through the hoops if not necessary. If you know they are a vet, just exempt them. If they are staying stealth, then at least provide an express check-ride to prove they know what they are doing with the minimal amount of hassle. There is no point in annoying them if it servers no purpose.
That could also serve as the final exam after the completion of training.
They may have also instructed themselves playing offline and already have learned it on their own. An express check-ride just lets them show you they have already figured out the basics.
:salute
Post by: Shuffler on December 24, 2019, 01:13:25 PM
They do not want to waste time learning..... they want to know the short cuts and the key codes.
Post by: Wiley on December 24, 2019, 01:18:15 PM
The problem with kids today is that they want to be really good right off the bat and be the leader. They want to start at the top.
They do not want to waste time learning..... they want to know the short cuts and the key codes.
That is completely false. There are literally dozens of online games with learning curves as steep or steeper than AH that people are willing to put in hundreds of hours to master. AH is special only in that people seem to have trouble getting started from the beginning.
Wiley.
Post by: Ciaphas on December 24, 2019, 01:39:15 PM
Well, yes. All the more reason to not piss anyone off more than necessary.
The training/check-ride isn't meant as a punishment or a hazing. It is intended to help and make the experience more productive for players that need it.
If possible, you should not force a returning vet to jump through the hoops if not necessary. If you know they are a vet, just exempt them. If they are staying stealth, then at least provide an express check-ride to prove they know what they are doing with the minimal amount of hassle. There is no point in annoying them if it servers no purpose.
That could also serve as the final exam after the completion of training.
They may have also instructed themselves playing offline and already have learned it on their own. An express check-ride just lets them show you they have already figured out the basics.
:salute
Ah but you are not tailoring to the individual. You are building a one shoe fits all for new accounts regardless if it's a returning "vet".
They can manage a 5 minute max training mission just fine.
Consider it refresher training... .
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Post by: CptTrips on December 24, 2019, 01:47:20 PM
The problem with kids today is that they want to be really good right off the bat and be the leader. They want to start at the top.
They do not want to waste time learning..... they want to know the short cuts and the key codes.
OK, Boomer.
(https://i1.wp.com/www.moviegazetteonline.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Archie-Bunker.jpg?fit=320%2C215)
Post by: guncrasher on December 24, 2019, 01:50:39 PM
Think a little message that only players can see that says you got 30 damage points counted towards score would give a bit of encouragement. It could be turned off if you want.
Another thing is give perks for assists, you can up a plane in attack mode hit town and get perks but not for assists. Doesn't make sense.
Anyway I think that little message when you land or get killed or whatever that says you earned 20 points towards score and earned 1 perk would be a little more encouragement to be players.
semp
Post by: pembquist on December 24, 2019, 02:28:00 PM
Well, yes. All the more reason to not piss anyone off more than necessary.
The training/check-ride isn't meant as a punishment or a hazing. It is intended to help and make the experience more productive for players that need it.
It has been so long since I started this game my memory is a little hazy but I have to say that if I had been compelled to go through a "Lets Practice A Take Off" and "This Is How You Do a Split S, Now You Try" kind of training I would have been very pissed off. What I remember is that I watched a video by...by...the guy who...BBosen on setting up views and set up my views so easily compared to any sim I had or have flown. After that the biggest problem I had was finding information in one easy to find coherent place, this was the most remarkable aspect of the game, (remarked to me by other people who were trying it out,) there IS no manual. You kind of learn from other players and osmosis and multiple BBS posts and ancient pages from the website and the wiki obsolete pages. When I see a clown posting a video of their inability to take off I am pretty sure they expect to be able to play with a mouse like it is an arcade. I think what you could do for those folks is just not have them take off but rather dump them into the air like War Online Pacific does, they need repetition just to sort out the controls, and they need on screen reminders about how the mouse is controlling the flight surfaces and something that tells them what to press for the throttle, make those things permanent until they get enough time playing that they can choose to turn them off, or something.
With regard to the mandated training, I don't think you should mandate it but instead try making it interesting enough that someone will do it for enjoyment. I don't really play any video games so my experience is very limited but I have never seen a tutorial that was not just staggeringly dull, so I think this is a real challenge and would take a lot of time and talent to create. If I was to try something I would streamline the new player experience and give them as little choice as possible until they had played a bit. I imagine and experience of slowly broadening access based not upon completing a training regimen but on flight time. A brand new player might not actually find all of the choice involved appealing as it is too much to keep track of and they are just looking for the key that moves the throttle up and down.
I think War Online Pacific was a good stab in this direction. Unfortunately for AH players the flight model was kind of bad with negative transfer back to AH. There was some confusion about who you were supposed to shoot and there was no story or ability to create a story in it. (What I mean by story is flying somewhere to attack it and coming back or something even more complex.)
Bottom line is I see the training thing has to be part of game play, has to be enjoyable, has to be snuck in. I think training is very easily a turn off so beware.
Post by: Ack-Ack on December 24, 2019, 02:37:07 PM
We'll have to agree to disagree.
I don't see any downside to having a separate streamlined express option for veterans. I think it would go a long way to minimizing the griping from returning players.
:salute
Forcing anyone to go through a tutorial isn't a good idea from a game play stand point. That is why the vast majority of games have optional tutorials that allow players the option to enable or disable tutorials in the game settings. Tutorial enable/disable setting can be added that is a win for both new and returning players.
I know that as a player that takes breaks from time to time, it would annoy me to have to take a "check ride" for a game that I'e been playing for 20 years.
Post by: Ciaphas on December 24, 2019, 02:51:10 PM
http://grail.cs.washington.edu/projects/game-abtesting/chi2012/chi2012.pdf (https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/http://grail.cs.washington.edu/projects/game-abtesting/chi2012/chi2012.pdf)
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Post by: Vraciu on December 24, 2019, 02:54:53 PM
Rather than gate it that way, why not do all of that, and show them the buttons to press to accomplish those tasks as they're doing them rather than making them go through the missions? That's exactly what I think would work best to get people up to speed. It's short, it gives them the info they need and gets them into the MA action fast. Also have a button on the interface or pause menu that lets you redo it if you forget.
Wiley.
You gotta' do some variation of this. You have to show them where things are. "CLICK HERE."
When you waive the training there needs to be a check box in the corner that's translucent where you can turn it back on. Some people will click it off and forget how to get it back.
Post by: Mongoose on December 24, 2019, 03:29:43 PM
if ya have time read this study
/http://grail.cs.washington.edu/projects/game-abtesting/chi2012/chi2012.pdf (https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/http://grail.cs.washington.edu/projects/game-abtesting/chi2012/chi2012.pdf)
This hyperlink does not work. Try this one instead: http://grail.cs.washington.edu/projects/game-abtesting/chi2012/chi2012.pdf
Post by: ccvi on December 25, 2019, 05:48:03 AM
1. Goto Hangar
2. Select a P-51D, 50% fuel, 2x100lb GP
3. Take off on N runway.
4. Xmit "launched" on help channel.
5. Navigate to ground target marked on map.
...
At first I thought it was nice, but then noticed that it doesn't really work. The game is a lot more than that. If you are putting in everything that is part of the game it is quite a bad thing for everyone not playing the whole game. And there is many people only playing some parts of the game.
At the very least it needs to be spit for different topics, each with separate competency evaluation and, if desired, tutorials, which should be disguised as a game. However, continuing to online play should not require a perfect score in all evaluations. Otherwise it is quickly making the furball-wizard angry who cannot hit another tank from point blank range.
Post by: Shuffler on December 25, 2019, 09:05:19 AM
That is completely false. There are literally dozens of online games with learning curves as steep or steeper than AH that people are willing to put in hundreds of hours to master. AH is special only in that people seem to have trouble getting started from the beginning.The games I have seen allow you to buy yourself better. I stand by my post. That means you are wrong. While neither way covers everyone, I believe my reasoning covers most.
Wiley.
Post by: Ciaphas on December 25, 2019, 09:06:56 AM
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Post by: CptTrips on December 25, 2019, 09:51:58 AM
At first I thought it was nice, but then noticed that it doesn't really work. The game is a lot more than that. If you are putting in everything that is part of the game it is quite a bad thing for everyone not playing the whole game. And there is many people only playing some parts of the game.
At the very least it needs to be spit for different topics, each with separate competency evaluation and, if desired, tutorials, which should be disguised as a game. However, continuing to online play should not require a perfect score in all evaluations. Otherwise it is quickly making the furball-wizard angry who cannot hit another tank from point blank range.
I wasn't suggesting that as an exhaustive survey of all the knowledge of Aces High. I've been playing 20 years and still learning stuff.
What I was suggesting there, was a minimal sanity check-ride to see if they at least know the very basics to START their learning experience in the Melee.
Can they select a plane from the Hangar?
Can they take-off?
Can they use the map to navigate to a target?
Can they drop an egg in the general vicinity of a target?
Can they track down an air target with the radar?
Can they shoot down an easy-mode drone?
Can they find their way back home?
Can they land?
Probably most important, do they understand the different text channels and how to use them? If they know that, they start accessing the rest of the community to learn more stuff.
If they can do the above, they have a reasonable chance to actually get something useful our of their 2-week trial.
:salute
Post by: CptTrips on December 25, 2019, 10:21:42 AM
Forcing anyone to go through a tutorial isn't a good idea from a game play stand point. That is why the vast majority of games have optional tutorials that allow players the option to enable or disable tutorials in the game settings. Tutorial enable/disable setting can be added that is a win for both new and returning players.
I know that as a player that takes breaks from time to time, it would annoy me to have to take a "check ride" for a game that I'e been playing for 20 years.
I'm somewhat sympathetic to that view. I'm one of those people who hate tutorials even when I need them. ;)
But just because something irritates some, doesn't mean that it wouldn't lead to greater revenue for HTC in the average.
How about this? (Assuming some coad changes from how things work now):
1. You can open a paying account immediately and skip the 2-week trial. The training is offered, but can be skipped. If you are a returning vet, this would be your path.
2. If you wish to earn the privilege of a 2-week trial, you complete the tutorial before entering the Melee.
:salute
Post by: Ciaphas on December 25, 2019, 10:26:44 AM
I'm somewhat sympathetic to that view. I'm one of those people who hate tutorials even when I need them. ;)
But just because something irritates some, doesn't mean that it wouldn't leave to greater revenue for HTC in the average.
How about this? (Assuming some coad changes from how things work now):
1. You can open a paying account immediately and skip the 2-week trial. The training is offered, but can be skipped. If you are a returning vet, this would be your path.
2. If you wish to earn the privilege of a 2-week trial, you complete the tutorial before entering the Melee.
:salute
Perhaps add a "are you a returning customer?" check box in the account creation menu? If the person clicks "yes" then they are exempt from the tutorial and just have it as an option in the games landing menu?
This seems to be the most feasible at the moment since old players seem to think that a training/check ride would be created based on their needs instead of the needs of those that are downloading the game and leaving within minutes of starting the game.. weird how that works... .
Post by: FLS on December 25, 2019, 10:39:27 AM
...
This seems to be the most feasible at the moment since old players seem to think that a training/check ride would be created based on their needs instead of the needs of those that are downloading the game and leaving within minutes of starting the game.. weird how that works... .
When you write crap like this it makes it seem like you just make stuff up and don't actually know anything.
Post by: CptTrips on December 25, 2019, 10:47:41 AM
Perhaps add a "are you a returning customer?" check box in the account creation menu? If the person clicks "yes" then they are exempt from the tutorial and just have it as an option in the games landing menu?
Sorta the same thing, if in that case they don't get a free trial. Returning customers don't need a free trial by default. Maybe they can call Hitech and beg special dispensation, but I don't want a bunch free-loaders being given 2-weeks every time they want to leave and come back.
:salute
Post by: Vraciu on December 25, 2019, 11:05:33 AM
I wasn't suggesting that as an exhaustive survey of all the knowledge of Aces High. I've been playing 20 years and still learning stuff.
What I was suggesting there, was a minimal sanity check-ride to see if they at least know the very basics to START their learning experience in the Melee.
Can they select a plane from the Hangar?
Can they take-off?
Can they use the map to navigate to a target?
Can they drop an egg in the general vicinity of a target?
Can they track down an air target with the radar?
Can they shoot down an easy-mode drone?
Can they find their way back home?
Can they land?
Probably most important, do they understand the different text channels and how to use them? If they know that, they start accessing the rest of the community to learn more stuff.
If they can do the above, they have a reasonable chance to actually get something useful our of their 2-week trial.
:salute
How about, "ARE YOU HAVING TROUBLE FLYING? CLICK HERE [ ]" or something...
Change the wording. The point being allow them to disable it but if they realize they need it then make it appear for the first 10 hours of play as a translucent checkbox. Something like that. I'm speaking in terms of broad concepts not specifics. The latter is going to require more thought.
Post by: Ciaphas on December 25, 2019, 11:13:15 AM
When you write crap like this it makes it seem like you just make stuff up and don't actually know anything.
Whether or not you agree with what I have said makes little difference to me. This thread is chalk full of "I's and me's" with regards to ideas that revolve around converting downloads to subs. The fact of the matter is, this is not for the veteran player (existing or returning), this is for people who have downloaded the game and left. Not sure why that's such a hard concept for people to grasp.
The two biggest flaws in this game revolve around training. I know you don't want to hear that but it is what it is.
Brand new players NEED a basic level of training before they play this game, this isn't speculation, this is fact. Especially if all they have is a mouse and keyboard.
The training corps as it stands is by appointment only. I wonder how many people that are subscribers have a BBS account? How many people feel the same way about having to go to external sources for training just to fly for the first time without becoming a lawn dart as some of you guys feel about a mandatory training bit for "new" accounts? Almost all games that have a complexity level above potato either offer a training mission or force the new player to complete a training mission prior to playing the core game. This is a standard in today's market.
Having a training corps that is by appointment only, is counter productive. You'll never convince me otherwise on that issue.
Had the training corps been proactive, this would be a moot conversation to begin with.
Post by: Vraciu on December 25, 2019, 12:23:58 PM
Whether or not you agree with what I have said makes little difference to me. This thread is chalk full of "I's and me's" with regards to ideas that revolve around converting downloads to subs. The fact of the matter is, this is not for the veteran player (existing or returning), this is for people who have downloaded the game and left. Not sure why that's such a hard concept for people to grasp.
The two biggest flaws in this game revolve around training. I know you don't want to hear that but it is what it is.
Brand new players NEED a basic level of training before they play this game, this isn't speculation, this is fact. Especially if all they have is a mouse and keyboard.
The training corps as it stands is by appointment only. I wonder how many people that are subscribers have a BBS account? How many people feel the same way about having to go to external sources for training just to fly for the first time without becoming a lawn dart as some of you guys feel about a mandatory training bit for "new" accounts? Almost all games that have a complexity level above potato either offer a training mission or force the new player to complete a training mission prior to playing the core game. This is a standard in today's market.
Having a training corps that is by appointment only, is counter productive. You'll never convince me otherwise on that issue.
Had the training corps been proactive, this would be a moot conversation to begin with.
Good points.
Post by: FLS on December 25, 2019, 12:28:26 PM
Whether or not you agree with what I have said makes little difference to me. This thread is chalk full of "I's and me's" with regards to ideas that revolve around converting downloads to subs. The fact of the matter is, this is not for the veteran player (existing or returning), this is for people who have downloaded the game and left. Not sure why that's such a hard concept for people to grasp.
The two biggest flaws in this game revolve around training. I know you don't want to hear that but it is what it is.
Brand new players NEED a basic level of training before they play this game, this isn't speculation, this is fact. Especially if all they have is a mouse and keyboard.
The training corps as it stands is by appointment only. I wonder how many people that are subscribers have a BBS account? How many people feel the same way about having to go to external sources for training just to fly for the first time without becoming a lawn dart as some of you guys feel about a mandatory training bit for "new" accounts? Almost all games that have a complexity level above potato either offer a training mission or force the new player to complete a training mission prior to playing the core game. This is a standard in today's market.
Having a training corps that is by appointment only, is counter productive. You'll never convince me otherwise on that issue.
Had the training corps been proactive, this would be a moot conversation to begin with.
Thank you for explaining that new players need basic training. I'm going to share that with the other trainers.
Some new players don't need basic training but I understand you aren't talking about them.
Training is by appointment, not by appointment only. Do you see the difference?
Remember a few months ago when Hitech said he was considering offline training? Do you remember me being against it? No?
Do you know why people download the game and don't stay or are you just guessing? Because all the people that downloaded the game and stayed during the last 20 years didn't have training missions.
Post by: Ciaphas on December 25, 2019, 12:50:12 PM
Thank you for explaining that new players need basic training. I'm going to share that with the other trainers.
Some new players don't need basic training but I understand you aren't talking about them.
Someone had to explain it to you, sad that it had to be me instead of the title you wear... .
Once again this would be something that is a "one shoe fits all" training plan and not an "individual" based training plan. After all that's what the training corps is for, right? You know, training people old a new on the ins and outs of the game as well as advanced concepts or was it just the advanced concepts that someone said that was what the training corps was really for in a previous thread?
Quote
Training is by appointment, not by appointment only. Do you see the difference?
That's just a matter of semantics. Asking a new player to use dot commands to ask for help when they can't figure out basic flight is a bit counter productive and goes against the standard training ethos. What good does a training arena do if there isn't anyone there to teach? When you accept a position of responsibility, you have to follow through with it and own it like a boss. It means you clear your schedule to fulfill your role as a trainer. You don't do it only when it's a conveniences to you.[/quote]
Quote
Remember a few months ago when Hitech said he was considering offline training? Do you remember me being against it? No?
I do remember that thread. There is a vast difference between "go here to train" and "hey, you're new. Here is a basic course to get you started before you get slaughtered by the masses in the MA".
Quote
Do you know why people download the game and don't stay or are you just guessing? Because all the people that downloaded the game and stayed during the last 20 years didn't have training missions.
Frustration and lack of basic knowledge to play the game. By the way one of these can cancel out the other with just a bit of pregame training.
Post by: Vraciu on December 25, 2019, 01:30:14 PM
Training is by appointment, not by appointment only. Do you see the difference?
When I was in WBs all I had to do was message a guy with an = in his name and I could go to the TA right then.
Inconvenient. As opposed to convenient. Do you see the difference?
Post by: FLS on December 25, 2019, 01:34:28 PM
Post by: Vraciu on December 25, 2019, 01:35:03 PM
Yes. If you want a WB trainer go for it.
They're probably just as common/available. That's Ciaphas' point.
Post by: FLS on December 25, 2019, 01:37:22 PM
Post by: Ciaphas on December 25, 2019, 01:39:38 PM
Yes. If you want a WB trainer go for it.
There is a possibility that over the last 20 yrs, you have gotten used to players that had come to AH from WB and other like flight sims. They probably needed very little in the way of "training" as they already had a basic understanding of this games model.
It's also quite understandable that the training corps got comfortable with the that environment. Well, that environment no longer exists the way that it did back then. This means that the training corps mission needs to be evaluated and adjusted to fit in today's environment. The "that's the way we have always done it" mentality is one of the most corrosive mentalities that one can have in any walk of life.
Post by: Vraciu on December 25, 2019, 01:48:13 PM
We're better looking. :banana:
Touche'!!! :rofl
Post by: FLS on December 25, 2019, 01:50:47 PM
There is a possibility that over the last 20 yrs, you have gotten used to players that had come to AH from WB and other like flight sims. They probably needed very little in the way of "training" as they already had a basic understanding of this games model.
It's also quite understandable that the training corps got comfortable with the that environment. Well, that environment no longer exists the way that it did back then. This means that the training corps mission needs to be evaluated and adjusted to fit in today's environment. The "that's the way we have always done it" mentality is one of the most corrosive mentalities that one can have in any walk of life.
Nobody in the training corps or HTC has that attitude. That's why I say you make up straw men.
Which AHTC trainers have you trained with?
Post by: Ciaphas on December 25, 2019, 02:24:58 PM
Nobody in the training corps or HTC has that attitude. That's why I say you make up straw men.
I don't think a strawman means what you think it means.
Based on your own admissions on how the training corps operates, it leads one to believe that players from 20 yrs ago were more skilled out of the gate then they are now. It also points to an assumption that players from 20 yrs ago as being more versed in flight sims than they are today (new to the game types only), of course this is through your own admission not mine.
From the outside looking in at training and from your own admission you appear to have the mentality that I described in my last post. I'm also not talking to HTC, I am talking to you.
Quote
Which AHTC trainers have you trained with?
I've never seen one in the MA, I've never seen a message saying "Hey, there is a trainer online" and I've damn sure never seen a trainer in the TA and had I not been a member of the BBS I would have never known who were trainers and to be honest I still don't know who they all are because they don't have any real presence in game.
It has also been stated in another thread that the training by appointment is there because if a trainer is in a sortie, they don't want to end their sortie to help someone out. so, which is it, train people or worry about score? Can't really do both and be effective. Don't say that you can because people who quit out of frustration would not have quit or not as many of them.
Post by: The Fugitive on December 25, 2019, 06:13:52 PM
I think a more proactive training corp, having guys jump into the main and announce training available now, or "chat with a trainer" type thing to bring that info to new players more easily.
Post by: ccvi on December 25, 2019, 07:04:00 PM
Do you know why people download the game and don't stay or are you just guessing? Because all the people that downloaded the game and stayed during the last 20 years didn't have training missions.
Try for a moment to forget everything you know about AH. Then imagine that you have played 100+ other games, half of them online, a dozen of them mmos. You got broadband, a 1 GB dowload takes less than a minute.
Now you are a typical new player.
Think how you would learn about the game. Probably by dumb luck, because there's practically no reviews on news sites nor any let's play videos. So most of the information you are going to consume is from the steam page. Or possibly the HTC website.
How much time do you spend on doing any reading before hitting the dowload-now-for-free button? Consider the time you spend reading vs the time it would take to try with just 1GB to dowload.
Now after reading the website for 2 minutes (and continuing to read for another minute while the download is running) you log in to the game. First impression, text look blurred (pixelated fonts on the mapped texture of the clipboard). Offline... training... online... let's go online and check the game. Arenas... 100 there, others empty, ok, that one. Oh, not really free, it wants money regularly. Well, let's try while it's free.
Ugly video, go away, ah, thete's a checkbox to get rid of them.
Now how to get a plane... weird interface. Let's ask someone... no chat bar. Enter doesn't do anything. I'm not too stupid I can open the chat bar in every other game.
Oh well, blurred text, wants money, cannot fly. Not worth spending any further effort because it's probably not good enough for 15$/month anyway. Website looked ancient, let's try something else.
Post by: FLS on December 25, 2019, 07:43:28 PM
I don't think a strawman means what you think it means.
...
What do you think it is?
Here's an online definition. The straw man is a fallacy in which an opponent's argument is overstated or misrepresented in order to be more easily attacked or refuted.
It's a staple of bad arguments on the forum. Sometimes it's an inadvertent misunderstanding.
So for example you ascribe to me arguments and attitudes I don't have and then you ask me to defend them.
At which point I tell you it's another made up straw man.
Post by: FLS on December 25, 2019, 07:52:20 PM
Try for a moment to forget everything you know about AH. ...
That's happening as we speak. :old:
When I started AH I didn't know anything about it. But instead of imagining being a newbie it's better to just get one interested enough to try it out on your PC and watch what they do on their own, see where they have difficulty and where they get stuck. That way you're not imagining what other people are thinking and you have specific information instead of useless generalities.
Post by: Ciaphas on December 25, 2019, 08:11:50 PM
That's happening as we speak. :old:
Aint that the truth, time fly's way to fast.
Quote
When I started AH I didn't know anything about it. But instead of imagining being a newbie it's better to just get one interested enough to try it out on your PC and watch what they do on their own, see where they have difficulty and where they get stuck. That way you're not imagining what other people are thinking and you have specific information instead of useless generalities.
Yeah, so, pregame training is based on the knowledge that a player will have to perform certain procedures in a repetitive manner while playing a game.
Company A: We will create a short hands on tutorial covering the basic elements required to play our game. Then, we will provide on "demand training" to our player base to help mitigate any other issues that may arise during core game play.
so, there's that... .
Post by: CAV on December 25, 2019, 08:38:10 PM
They have steep learning curve, in many ways harder than AcesHigh and a pricing model that makes it one of the most expensive games to play on the internet.
From the IRACING forums on 12/19/2019...
Quote
Big Day for iRacing!!!
We just hit 100,000 active members for the first time!!!!
This is a huge milestone for us and the community! We just wanted to thank all of you for being a part of this!!!
Our sincerest thanks to all of you, for letting us do what we love!!!!
Cheers!
(https://members.iracing.com/jforum/servlet/ImageServlet/2554592)
Post by: Triton28 on December 25, 2019, 08:41:50 PM
There are other factors for sure, but to me those listed above are the biggest impediments.
Post by: FLS on December 25, 2019, 08:53:32 PM
What is iRacing doing that AH isn't doing?
Racing cars with penalties for crashing in a strictly controlled format where all you can choose is your paint job and road vs oval? And you buy each car beyond the basic set plus pay a subscription..
Race practice doesn't require an opponent, just a track and a clock, and there's no down time climbing out or rtb, the basic controls are familiar to everybody, and I doubt there's much picking or gang-banging.
I'm sure you aren't suggesting we get professional sponsorship, get fighter pilots to use AH for training, and expect coverage on sports news.
Post by: Vraciu on December 25, 2019, 09:22:46 PM
Try for a moment to forget everything you know about AH. Then imagine that you have played 100+ other games, half of them online, a dozen of them mmos. You got broadband, a 1 GB dowload takes less than a minute.
Now you are a typical new player.
Think how you would learn about the game. Probably by dumb luck, because there's practically no reviews on news sites nor any let's play videos. So most of the information you are going to consume is from the steam page. Or possibly the HTC website.
How much time do you spend on doing any reading before hitting the dowload-now-for-free button? Consider the time you spend reading vs the time it would take to try with just 1GB to dowload.
Now after reading the website for 2 minutes (and continuing to read for another minute while the download is running) you log in to the game. First impression, text look blurred (pixelated fonts on the mapped texture of the clipboard). Offline... training... online... let's go online and check the game. Arenas... 100 there, others empty, ok, that one. Oh, not really free, it wants money regularly. Well, let's try while it's free.
Ugly video, go away, ah, thete's a checkbox to get rid of them.
Now how to get a plane... weird interface. Let's ask someone... no chat bar. Enter doesn't do anything. I'm not too stupid I can open the chat bar in every other game.
Oh well, blurred text, wants money, cannot fly. Not worth spending any further effort because it's probably not good enough for 15$/month anyway. Website looked ancient, let's try something else.
This just got ignored by everyone... Quite unfortunate.
Post by: Litjan on December 26, 2019, 12:41:05 AM
This just got ignored by everyone... Quite unfortunate.
You are right, it is - in my opinion - probably the best analysis of why we don´t even get people into the game to TRY it - let alone stick long enough to see it´s potential.
The GUI is a big thing. X-Plane did not see success with a larger number of players until they revamped the GUI with X-Plane 11. The core simulator didn´t change that much, but just having a modern, industry standard and decent looking GUI made a huge change!
Aces High´s initial experience is so 90´s. That was a time when players went through a lot of trouble to get to play a game. Not anymore. Modern players are used to a smooth and hassle-free experience, with big, glowing, pulsating buttons showing them what to hit next to continue. Every successful online game has a foolproof interactive tutorial and tries to make a perfect first impression.
Yes, the Aces High GUI can do everything it needs to do - but we are blind to how it looks to a modern player because we have stared at it for 20+ years.
This is not the only reason that Aces High is slowly dwindling into extinction. So the real question is: How much effort does HT want to pour into different lacking aspects of the game to make it viable?
The problem is not lack of advertising. It is not lack of aircraft models to fly. It is not lack of interest in flight simulation (see War Thunder?). It is not players not liking complex games. It is simply an outdated visual experience (both GUI and in-game) and a horrible gameplay experience as a new player (long, dull flights to get to the action, impossibly hard adversaries).
The changes necessary would be expensive and probably also not sit well with us old **rts that just like the game the way it was when we started playing it in the 90s as young whippersnappers.
Jan
Post by: Vraciu on December 26, 2019, 09:07:39 AM
I know Hitech likes the clipboard and it's an impressive display of coding, but I didn't particularly care for it that much when I first came over here, especially how it limits the map size to far less than full screen. Modern gamers especially are going to like it even less because it somewhat hinders what they want/need to do. If it is going to stay it needs to not be limited by the dimensions of the screen. I don't have the exact right answer I just sense it needs a tweak. The control tower button theme might be a good start to follow on your idea.
:headscratch: I don't have all the solutions, but something needs to be adjusted for new blood to stay.
Post by: FLS on December 26, 2019, 10:24:30 AM
Post by: Vraciu on December 26, 2019, 10:40:10 AM
If the GUI is an issue would you expect WO:P to see more new players than AH3?
I'm not sure how many people even know about WOP.
I haven't even been in it and I've been here for years.
Post by: CptTrips on December 26, 2019, 10:54:13 AM
If the GUI is an issue would you expect WO:P to see more new players than AH3?
It has to be better, not merely different.
Hitech writes excellent system and simulation code. That doesn't mean he is an expert at designing elegant, beautiful user interfaces. No one can be an expert at everything.
There are user interface design improvements that could be made to both games, IMHO. I don't know if it is the top-most priority, but it gets mentioned a lot in reviews I've seen. It is functional, but certainly could be improved and made more visually appealing/slick. But, that doesn't mean Hitech has the resources to deal with that right now. It is always a game of resource allocation.
And yes, this kind of stuff does have a big impact on user's first impressions. The UI is a game's initial "curb appeal". It can set the tone of their impression way before they even get wheels up.
Post by: Ciaphas on December 26, 2019, 11:42:33 AM
This just got ignored by everyone... Quite unfortunate.
Not ignored, it just highlights another aspect that should be taken in to consideration for an upgrade. I relate the game's GUI to the HitechCreation website, it was great in 2001 but not so much in 2019. It used to be that familiar design that was the beginning of some really great sorties. Now it's more like that senile uncle at the family Christmas party and the game is the smoke break you take in the back yard to get away from him.
Post by: Vraciu on December 26, 2019, 12:16:36 PM
Not ignored, it just highlights another aspect that should be taken in to consideration for an upgrade. I relate the game's GUI to the HitechCreation website, it was great in 2001 but not so much in 2019. It used to be that familiar design that was the beginning of some really great sorties. Now it's more like that senile uncle at the family Christmas party and the game is the smoke break you take in the back yard to get away from him.
People ignored what you said and just kept talking. That was my point.
Post by: FLS on December 26, 2019, 12:39:46 PM
People ignored what you said and just kept talking. That was my point.
He didn't say it and I responded to it.
Post by: ccvi on December 26, 2019, 12:59:08 PM
The GUI and website were both updated for AH3 so it's hardly 20 years old. But don't let facts ruin a good rant. :D
My memory says AH2 clipboard looked better.
Edit: map zoom in 3 works better though.
Post by: Ciaphas on December 26, 2019, 02:03:05 PM
The GUI and website were both updated for AH3 so it's hardly 20 years old. But don't let facts ruin a good rant. :D
He didn't say it and I responded to it.
Just some color changes and the implementation of CMS via SMF. Doesn't do a bit of good if it isn't used or updated regularly.
The 2000's version was more functional and had a better center info box and a pretty sweet graphic.
Homepage yr: 2000
(https://i.ibb.co/FbKP3V4/HTC2000.jpg)
BBS yr: 2000
(https://i.ibb.co/3k2qxxD/HTC2000-BBS.jpg)
Homepage yr: 2005
(https://i.ibb.co/9s2jgxy/HTC2005.jpg)
Homepage yr: 2009
(https://i.ibb.co/YLj92R0/HTC2009.jpg)
Post by: Vraciu on December 26, 2019, 02:11:39 PM
The GUI and website were both updated for AH3 so it's hardly 20 years old. But don't let facts ruin a good rant. :D
Changing the metal clamp on top of the clipboard is hardly an overhaul.
It is still the same basic thing it's been since I joined--or for as long as I can remember any way.
Quote
He didn't say it and I responded to it.
You lost me.
Post by: Ciaphas on December 26, 2019, 02:14:50 PM
All I did was edit my last one...
The homepage from 2000 made me want to fly and fight
Post by: Ramesis on December 26, 2019, 02:19:03 PM
The games I have seen allow you to buy yourself better. I stand by my post. That means you are wrong. While neither way covers everyone, I believe my reasoning covers most.
But at a cost... mainly $ that increase with the level
Post by: Shuffler on December 26, 2019, 03:01:15 PM
But at a cost... mainly $ that increase with the level
Yes the free is not really free.....
Post by: FLS on December 26, 2019, 03:16:36 PM
Changing the metal clamp on top of the clipboard is hardly an overhaul.
It is still the same basic thing it's been since I joined--or for as long as I can remember any way.
You lost me.
Yes it's basically the same thing because it's basically the same game. But it's basically false to say the current version is 20 years old.
Post by: The Fugitive on December 26, 2019, 03:30:43 PM
The GUI and website were both updated for AH3 so it's hardly 20 years old. But don't let facts ruin a good rant. :D
He didn't say it and I responded to it.
Yes it was "updated" not long ago, but in a style that was from 2000. That is the point he's trying to make. There is nothing there that grabs the attention of a new player. Nothing that say "Your going to frikin' LOVE THIS!!!!"
The web site looks like they are selling insurance, not promoting a MMO game with as big a scope as this game represents.
Post by: Ciaphas on December 26, 2019, 03:31:26 PM
Yes it's basically the same thing because it's basically the same game. But it's basically false to say the current version is 20 years old.
You can have the best product in the world but if no one really knows about, you can't expect it to grab much attention when it's wrapped in very basic box that does not highlight the product contained within.
Marketing 101: dress your product to get noticed and sell.
Set it above other products in the same category, not behind it like its the dollar store version of the same game.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: FLS on December 26, 2019, 03:34:31 PM
Post by: Ciaphas on December 26, 2019, 03:41:52 PM
I think it's great that you guys are clear on the basic facts of marketing. :aok
You disagree?
You can go over to the playstation net, Xbox store or any other game selling store and figure out which games are selling and which ones are collecting digital dust. Other than the big hitters the ones that have little to no quality presentation often get ignored.
Those stores offer static advertising and video advertising for the games they sell. Each game's presentation is handled by the developer of the game and it shows which ones are polished and which ones are wrapped dusty rags.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: TheBug on December 26, 2019, 03:59:40 PM
Post by: Vraciu on December 26, 2019, 04:39:49 PM
Man you hamsters never get tired running on that wheel. :salute
We have lots of free time.
Post by: Ciaphas on December 26, 2019, 04:42:51 PM
We have lots of free time.
:aok
Post by: FLS on December 26, 2019, 05:05:19 PM
You disagree?
Not at all. We all agree on basics and generalities. It's the specifics where we diverge.
Post by: Lusche on December 26, 2019, 05:47:52 PM
Man you hamsters never get tired running on that wheel. :salute
We are old people. We love routines, repetition, and nagging. :old:
Post by: DmonSlyr on December 26, 2019, 08:33:55 PM
Match play needs to seriously be fixed.
Post by: Volron on December 26, 2019, 08:36:40 PM
The front page of AH is boring and lacks special event announcements, monthly screen shot contests, new skin pics, and short videos. There is no enthusiasm.
Match play needs to seriously be fixed.
It still has the FM2/F4F4 video, which is what, 2 years old?
Post by: FLS on December 26, 2019, 08:53:54 PM
It still has the FM2/F4F4 video, which is what, 2 years old?
If you're new you're seeing it for the first time. :D
Post by: The Fugitive on December 26, 2019, 09:06:04 PM
If you're new you're seeing it for the first time. :D
....and if you checked out the web site/game last year you notice nothing has changed. That looks good too.
Post by: Ciaphas on December 26, 2019, 09:08:27 PM
If you're new you're seeing it for the first time. :D
This guy right here... .
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Volron on December 26, 2019, 09:13:55 PM
If you're new you're seeing it for the first time. :D
:rofl
Post by: Vraciu on December 26, 2019, 10:36:36 PM
This guy right here... .
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
No sh__! LOL!! :rofl
Post by: FLS on December 27, 2019, 08:55:15 AM
....and if you checked out the web site/game last year you notice nothing has changed. That looks good too.
Humor is a marker for something... :cheers:
Post by: Litjan on December 27, 2019, 12:53:03 PM
I wish just once the posts would stay on topic and constructive.
What are you guys going to do with your lives when this BBS gets shut down along with the rest of this game? Go on WarThunders Discord (ask your grandchildren to set that up for you!)?
Litjan
Post by: Ciaphas on December 27, 2019, 01:08:35 PM
Aaaaaaaaand the conversation takes the route of all discussions on this bulletin board... Wisecracking, banter and cynical if not acid remarks of the usual oldtimers that shuts down all brainstorming, analysis or even constructive suggestions to make this game better/more appealing or even viable to live into the future.
I wish just once the posts would stay on topic and constructive.
What are you guys going to do with your lives when this BBS gets shut down along with the rest of this game? Go on WarThunders Discord (ask your grandchildren to set that up for you!)?
Litjan
It would appear that some of the old timers are afraid of anything that may cause a ripple in their pond.
Post by: TheBug on December 27, 2019, 03:14:31 PM
It would appear that some of the old timers are afraid of anything that may cause a ripple in their pond.
Hehe, what happens if you were able to convince the "old timers" that a new idea is a good idea?
Post by: Ciaphas on December 27, 2019, 03:16:21 PM
Hehe, what happens if you were able to convince the "old timers" that a new idea is a good idea?
I believe world hunger would be easier to solve haha
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Post by: BaldEagl on December 27, 2019, 03:46:55 PM
I agree that there has to be a free to play aspect to this game to get people into it. I've argued in the past that the old H2H arenas should make a return. I realize someone hacked the game but why didn't HT just ban the offenders instead of closing the whole H2H arenas down and losing more people? I also know HT has said the H2H players weren't converting to subscribers but did he ever offer them a limited time discount to try the MA's? Maybe $5-10/mo for 3-6 mo. or something? Baby steps are better than nothing. Maybe a limited plane set in the MA could work but it might frustrate new players even more.
I also look back at all the things in the game that have been lost. As much as many didn't like it some people loved the stealth game... NOE, undetectable ground missions, bomber radar avoidance, etc. Gone, and so are the players. Easy targets... you used to be able to take out a V-base in a single bomber pass, proliferation of auto-ack, ability to destroy radar easily, etc, etc. And where are those players? Gone. Squads, missions, hordes... no longer enough people to sustain. How about sitting INSIDE of a GV? Or having a separate driver and gunner? Can you even gun for a bomber pilot anymore (I'm really not sure)? In many ways I think HT should take some of these settings back 20 years and add the fun back into the game for the less skilled. Many on the BBS denigrate arcade but there should be arcade type elements incorporated into the game to attract those players. On the other hand the settings should be as close to realistic as possible (radar, number of ack, city/town design, etc.) without artificial restraints imposed.
And then there's the community. I have a lot of old acquaintances here but when a trainer used my dueling ladder stats to tell me I wasn't qualified to help a new player that was the beginning of the end. And finally the straw that ultimately broke the camels back was when the new graphics were launched. I tried to drag my old settings (controls, head positions, etc.) into the new game but none of them worked and I didn't want to have to start over.
Look, there's four major phases every business goes through; start-up, growth, maturity and decline. Phase three typically requires new investment if phase four is to be avoided. HT attempted this with the new graphics/version but it was already too late. At this point he's likely better off to reduce expenses and milk what's left for as long as possible so I don't expect there will be a lot of new toys or marketing but, a return to some of the old game elements would be an inexpensive way to try to lure back some of those lost over the years.
Later
BE
Post by: Lusche on December 27, 2019, 03:47:09 PM
Hehe, what happens if you were able to convince the "old timers" that a new idea is a good idea?
But there is no need to convince anyone but HiTech. None of us "old timers" has any say in the way AH is run. ;)
Post by: 100Coogn on December 27, 2019, 04:14:32 PM
It would appear that some of the old timers are afraid of anything that may cause a ripple in their pond.
+1
Coogan
Post by: FLS on December 27, 2019, 04:16:38 PM
But there is no need to convince anyone but HiTech. None of us "old timers" has any say in the way AH is run. ;)
Some people will never believe that. And they'll never believe we're all on the same side and we all want the same thing.
Post by: TheBug on December 27, 2019, 04:20:56 PM
But there is no need to convince anyone but HiTech. None of us "old timers" has any say in the way AH is run. ;)
Exactly. But the hamsters keep running.
Post by: Vraciu on December 27, 2019, 04:22:02 PM
But there is no need to convince anyone but HiTech. None of us "old timers" has any say in the way AH is run. ;)
Yeah, but groupthink and echo chambers can be a bad influence. (Not that Hitech can't think for himself, obviously. Of course he can and does.)
Post by: Shuffler on December 27, 2019, 04:26:17 PM
Aaaaaaaaand the conversation takes the route of all discussions on this bulletin board... Wisecracking, banter and cynical if not acid remarks of the usual oldtimers that shuts down all brainstorming, analysis or even constructive suggestions to make this game better/more appealing or even viable to live into the future.
I wish just once the posts would stay on topic and constructive.
What are you guys going to do with your lives when this BBS gets shut down along with the rest of this game? Go on WarThunders Discord (ask your grandchildren to set that up for you!)?
Litjan
You might try searching the BBS to see how old a lot of the so called "brain storming" is........
Last time I checked... not one of you were on the BOD at HiTech Creations.
Perhaps if you spent more time flying and less time trying to run someone else's company..... the game would be better.
If you actually have something that you think HiTech can't do without, try emailing it to his office. He may be receptive, he might not be. At least you tried. Then you can go to the next company and turn them around... and the next.... etc.
You can go on an make snide remarks about folks who have been here a long time if you want..... most of us will just ignore that and then continue ignoring anything else you say. It just thins your audience. In the end, we are still here and the game we have supported all these years is still here. HiTech has his work cut out for him and I have no doubt he is working on it... it is his livelihood and also those he employs.
I am done with this thread.
Post by: FLS on December 27, 2019, 04:28:03 PM
Yeah, but groupthink and echo chambers can be a bad influence. (Not that Hitech can't think for himself, obviously. Of course he can and does.)
You just mean the other group think that disagrees, not the group think that agrees. :devil
Post by: snugar109 on December 27, 2019, 04:34:22 PM
Perhaps if you spent more time flying and less time trying to run someone else's company..... the game would be better.
:aok
Post by: Vraciu on December 27, 2019, 04:39:49 PM
You just mean the other group think that disagrees, not the group think that agrees. :devil
The Fresh Eye Concept.
Look into it.
In the meantime, continuing to do things that are not working can lead to success--what's old is new again, just look at fashion--but it isn't likely.
Post by: FLS on December 27, 2019, 05:32:28 PM
The Fresh Eye Concept.
Look into it.
In the meantime, continuing to do things that are not working can lead to success--what's old is new again, just look at fashion--but it isn't likely.
I prefer the concepts of actual knowledge and rational thinking but to each their own.
Post by: Vraciu on December 27, 2019, 06:25:06 PM
I prefer the concepts of actual knowledge and rational thinking but to each their own.
Actual Knowledge = Numbers are Declining. Players are not staying. Other games are wildly successful even if they aren't as good.
Rational Thinking = If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. The current method is perhaps sub-optimal. Try something different.
In my world it should never go like this:
"Captain, you're below glideslope."
"Yeah, I know. I was doing just fine before. Continuing."
:bhead :airplane:
Glideslope! Terrain! Terrain! Pull up!
But this is in effect what many of you are counseling Hitech to do (to his detriment in my opinion). The time for half measures is when things are going well. When things are not going so well then bold moves are often the most prudent. Get back on the glideslope. Get out of the terrain. Do what you gotta' do. If you don't the jet is going to crash. If you crash any way at least you tried rather than continuing down the valley with the EGPWS yelling in your ear.
Post by: guncrasher on December 27, 2019, 07:29:28 PM
semp
Post by: Max on December 27, 2019, 08:10:25 PM
Hey guys, been a long time. I cancelled my sub quite a while ago simply because I didn't play anymore. I had been hanging around for scenarios for a while before that but (no offense to Brook) when ROC quite running the scenarios and the set-ups became a forum free-for-all I gave up on those too.
I agree that there has to be a free to play aspect to this game to get people into it. I've argued in the past that the old H2H arenas should make a return. I realize someone hacked the game but why didn't HT just ban the offenders instead of closing the whole H2H arenas down and losing more people? I also know HT has said the H2H players weren't converting to subscribers but did he ever offer them a limited time discount to try the MA's? Maybe $5-10/mo for 3-6 mo. or something? Baby steps are better than nothing. Maybe a limited plane set in the MA could work but it might frustrate new players even more.
I also look back at all the things in the game that have been lost. As much as many didn't like it some people loved the stealth game... NOE, undetectable ground missions, bomber radar avoidance, etc. Gone, and so are the players. Easy targets... you used to be able to take out a V-base in a single bomber pass, proliferation of auto-ack, ability to destroy radar easily, etc, etc. And where are those players? Gone. Squads, missions, hordes... no longer enough people to sustain. How about sitting INSIDE of a GV? Or having a separate driver and gunner? Can you even gun for a bomber pilot anymore (I'm really not sure)? In many ways I think HT should take some of these settings back 20 years and add the fun back into the game for the less skilled. Many on the BBS denigrate arcade but there should be arcade type elements incorporated into the game to attract those players. On the other hand the settings should be as close to realistic as possible (radar, number of ack, city/town design, etc.) without artificial restraints imposed.
And then there's the community. I have a lot of old acquaintances here but when a trainer used my dueling ladder stats to tell me I wasn't qualified to help a new player that was the beginning of the end. And finally the straw that ultimately broke the camels back was when the new graphics were launched. I tried to drag my old settings (controls, head positions, etc.) into the new game but none of them worked and I didn't want to have to start over.
Look, there's four major phases every business goes through; start-up, growth, maturity and decline. Phase three typically requires new investment if phase four is to be avoided. HT attempted this with the new graphics/version but it was already too late. At this point he's likely better off to reduce expenses and milk what's left for as long as possible so I don't expect there will be a lot of new toys or marketing but, a return to some of the old game elements would be an inexpensive way to try to lure back some of those lost over the years.
Later
BE
Well stated! Good to see you...things good? -S-
Post by: FLS on December 27, 2019, 08:15:52 PM
But this is in effect what many of you are counseling Hitech to do (to his detriment in my opinion).
Show one example.
Post by: guncrasher on December 27, 2019, 08:28:11 PM
Show one example.
He'll post all his ideas that he thinks are good but doesn't step outside and think about why they wouldn't work or make the game worst.
He doesn't see that for example last fso we had over a hundred players making it close or maybe over 200 that day. If we aren't sure why some players only do fso and scenarios, how can we bring me players and make them stay?
semp
Post by: Vraciu on December 27, 2019, 08:28:15 PM
Show one example.
This thread, among others, is littered with them. If you prefer, take a look at your own post history. That should provide plenty.
Post by: Vraciu on December 27, 2019, 08:29:27 PM
He'll post all his ideas that he thinks are good but doesn't step outside and think about why they wouldn't work or make the game worst.
And how do you know they won't work? Have they been tried in the last decade? Nope. So we continue... One group seeing how things are (and lobbying for some changes), the other seeing how they wish they were (and pretending everything is hunky-dory).
Quote
He doesn't see...
Who are you to say what I see or don't see? How would you even know?
Quote
...[T]hat for example last fso we had over a hundred players making it close or maybe over 200 that day. If we aren't sure why some players only do fso and scenarios, how can we bring me players and make them stay?
semp
What does FSO have to do with it? About the only thing you can parallel in FSO is the trend.
Post by: FLS on December 27, 2019, 08:31:04 PM
This thread, among others, is littered with them. If you prefer, take a look at your own post history. That should provide plenty.
So nothing? OK then. :D
Post by: Vraciu on December 27, 2019, 08:31:58 PM
So nothing? OK then. :D
If you believe that there's nothing any of us can do to help you.
At this point you are just trolling in an attempt to get me booted off the forums. I'm not falling for it. Back to the ignore list.
*PLONK*
Post by: guncrasher on December 27, 2019, 08:40:48 PM
semp
Post by: Ciaphas on December 27, 2019, 08:59:33 PM
Fso has paying customers. They had almost the same amount of players that the ma has on a regular day.
semp
What is it about FSO that attracts so many?
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Post by: guncrasher on December 27, 2019, 09:14:19 PM
What is it about FSO that attracts so many?
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What is about the ma that some people prefer fso and scenarios over it?
Players fly in fso for 30 minutes then get killed in 30 seconds, why won't they fly in ma where you fly for 10 minutes and die in 30 seconds?
semp
Post by: Vraciu on December 27, 2019, 09:15:09 PM
Fso has paying customers. They had almost the same amount of players that the ma has on a regular day.
semp
And that happens how often?
Once a month?
Three weeks out of four? It's not daily, and the numbers there were far higher than that when I went in there the first time I believe.
Post by: Vraciu on December 27, 2019, 09:15:46 PM
What is about the ma that some people prefer fso and scenarios over it?
Players fly in fso for 30 minutes then get killed in 30 seconds, why won't they fly in ma where you fly for 10 minutes and die in 30 seconds?
semp
The answer lies within the question itself.
Post by: guncrasher on December 27, 2019, 09:23:33 PM
The answer lies within the question itself.
Flying for 30 minutes is better?
semp
Post by: Ciaphas on December 27, 2019, 09:29:09 PM
What is about the ma that some people prefer fso and scenarios over it?
Players fly in fso for 30 minutes then get killed in 30 seconds, why won't they fly in ma where you fly for 10 minutes and die in 30 seconds?
semp
It's usually more productive to start at one point and work to the next when problem solving. You will also often find the solution before getting to the next point.
So, why do people prefer FSO over the MA? What is the draw? Is it because it is a two sided fight? Is it because of the field proximities?
What brings you to FSO? What brings you to the MA?
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Post by: FLS on December 27, 2019, 09:30:43 PM
If you believe that there's nothing any of us can do to help you.
At this point you are just trolling in an attempt to get me booted off the forums. I'm not falling for it. Back to the ignore list.
*PLONK*
You say the thread is full of examples but you can't post a single one. Then you write "plonk" like you dropped a mic and finished a winner with that mealy mouthed excuse. :rofl
Post by: Vraciu on December 27, 2019, 09:32:45 PM
Flying for 30 minutes is better?
semp
As I often say, CONTEXT is everything.
Post by: Ciaphas on December 27, 2019, 09:35:43 PM
You say the thread is full of examples but you can't post a single one. Then you write "plonk" like you dropped a mic and finished a winner with that mealy mouthed excuse. :rofl
That "PLONK" was him adding you to his ignore list not him dropping a mic.
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Post by: CptTrips on December 27, 2019, 09:39:09 PM
What is about the ma that some people prefer fso and scenarios over it?
Players fly in fso for 30 minutes then get killed in 30 seconds, why won't they fly in ma where you fly for 10 minutes and die in 30 seconds?
semp
Organized, curated, mission-based. Tight cooperation and coordination by players who have their heads out of their anus. A defined beginning, middle, and end with clearly defined achieveable victory conditions with that time.
Not a disorganized, wandering, pointless cluster fk, that just drags on and is finished in the middle of the night when you aren't even there, and every idiot just picks his nose doing whatever and has no reason to engage if the odds aren't completely in their favor beause who cares... oh, I'm sorry open sandbox. You know, open sandbox, like where cats go to sht. :D
Some people are more goal-oriented, some people just prefer wandering around picking their nose. Different strokes.
You asked. :cool:
Post by: FLS on December 27, 2019, 09:41:47 PM
What is it about FSO that attracts so many?
Have you considered trying it? :D
You might try training too. I'd be very surprised if you didn't learn something useful.
That "PLONK" was him adding you to his ignore list not him dropping a mic.
How do you know that? :D
Post by: Ciaphas on December 27, 2019, 09:49:13 PM
Have you considered trying it? :D
You might try training too. I'd be very surprised if you didn't learn something useful.
How do you know that? :D
The question was directed at those that are drawn to it.
Training, really? One of the issues with this game is the lack of training. When will training be made in demand and not by appointment?
I know what he meant because of the context he used.
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Post by: Vraciu on December 27, 2019, 09:49:28 PM
Organized, curated, mission-based. Tight cooperation and coordination by players who have their heads out of their anus. A defined beginning, middle, and end with clearly defined achieveable victory conditions with that time.
Not a disorganized, wandering, pointless cluster fk, that just drags on and is finished in the middle of the night when you aren't even there, and every idiot just picks his nose doing whatever and has no reason to engage if the odds aren't completely in their favor beause who cares... oh, I'm sorry open sandbox. You know, open sandbox, like where cats go to sht. :D
Some people are more goal-oriented, some people just prefer wandering around picking their nose. Different strokes.
You asked. :cool:
Dang bro. You are going to hell. :rofl
Post by: FLS on December 27, 2019, 09:57:34 PM
...
I know what he meant because of the context he used.
...
In other words you assumed it from context.
If you drop a mic does it coincidentally make a plonky sound like the ignore list?
Post by: Ciaphas on December 27, 2019, 10:03:23 PM
In other words you assumed it from context.
If you drop a mic does it coincidentally make a plonky sound like the ignore list?
Troll is a Troll
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Post by: CptTrips on December 27, 2019, 10:19:08 PM
Troll is a Troll
Yes, he is.
Post by: FESS67 on December 27, 2019, 10:37:33 PM
Show one example.
FLS, you are the consummate toxic insider. I have said it before and nothing that you bring to the forum dissuades me from my opinion. You add very little to any of the constructive threads and appear to exist just to throw cold water on the fire. Perhaps you should consider positives and add to the debate rather than negatives. Finally, when you do not have anything constructive to add, why not just say nothing? Why do you always need to subvert and dismiss others opinions?
Post by: guncrasher on December 27, 2019, 10:51:36 PM
Organized, curated, mission-based. Tight cooperation and coordination by players who have their heads out of their anus. A defined beginning, middle, and end with clearly defined achieveable victory conditions with that time.
Not a disorganized, wandering, pointless cluster fk, that just drags on and is finished in the middle of the night when you aren't even there, and every idiot just picks his nose doing whatever and has no reason to engage if the odds aren't completely in their favor beause who cares... oh, I'm sorry open sandbox. You know, open sandbox, like where cats go to sht. :D
Some people are more goal-oriented, some people just prefer wandering around picking their nose. Different strokes.
You asked. :cool:
ok now take the same situation, fso is goal oriented, we have given objectives and we fly in squads, given priority targets of what to shoot down and who to avoid. we have actually flown thru a swarm of fighters to get to bombers or our main whatever plane we need to shoot down.
now think of it in terms of ma. a squad or couple of squads get together and fly around in a swarm and all of a sudden they become picktards and skilless dweebs. they are hordes who only want easy kills. they run at the first sign of trouble or ask their friends to help.
not once have I ever seen a thread in fso complaining about hordes or calling out for help while trying a 1v1. or complaining about bomb****s who just want to fly around and rtb.
both are the same thing, but it's the attitude, in fso it's cool to horde, in ma "it's against the rules, you skill-less dweeb". you ruined my 1v1!!!!!!!!!!!!, you ran to ack, you ran back to friends....
in fso our job is to overwhelm the enemy, you do it in the ma and you are just part of a horde.
and maybe that's why some people prefer to play in fso only. they fly for 30 or 40 minutes or longer and maybe never fire a shot, but they keep coming back.
ma has objectives just like in fso, take bases, overwhelm defenders. fso overwhelm defenders cause as much damage and run back to mommy (friends).
so I guess the difference is expectations, in fso expect to get horded and die or perhaps shoot a couple of rounds and sometimes maybe not even fire a round and die. but in ma you expect a fair fight according to what you think it's a fair fight, otherwise all the other players are hording, bomb****s, skilless dweebs, who should go play world of planes.
perhaps we should treat the ma the same way fso is and we would have more players from fso joining during the week. or maybe like somebody posted a thread a month or 2 ago, if you would only stop complaining in the bb and fly the ma our numbers would be up. but ego is a hard thing to lose.
semp
Post by: FESS67 on December 27, 2019, 11:03:52 PM
I think losing people and not attracting / keeping new people are two distinct issues. How we have lost people is perhaps the easiest to hypothesise on. Here are my opinions (in no particular order)
- Player base is literally dying off. Many of the players in this game are older and eventually we die.
- Players burn out. At some stage you just need a break.
- Players get bored. Different from a burn out, they find the game does not hold them any more. The game has not changed significantly enough to keep it fresh. We pretty much do the same things we always did. There is a distinct lack of variety.
- Players get bored. Although the game has not changed much the way that players play the game has (or at least appears to have) changed. It is more of a hit and run rather than a fight it out game. IMO fight it out is the preferred option. We see this in fighters running, bombers bailing and GVs despawning. People are making their way to fights and the enemy is finding ways to avoid that fight. In a combat game that will lose you players.
- The community can be toxic and too many clashes appear to go unchecked. Eventually, game time becomes less enjoyable and people go find fun things to do.
- The decline in numbers means many of the 'idiosyncrasies' of the game become amplified and the game does not feel like it used to.
- Changes in gameplay to appease some sections of the community do not appeal to others. Eventually they leave.
Some of those are natural attrition. Most cannot be controlled or influenced by Hitech, some can.
[/list]
On the other side of the coin, attracting / keeping new players should be in a separate thread. There will certainly be common themes around population density and fight v flight issues.
Post by: CptTrips on December 27, 2019, 11:37:30 PM
ma has objectives just like in fso, take bases, overwhelm defenders.
I disagree. I do not think the Melee has objectectives like an FSO or a Scenario, and that is exactly the point. I undertand there are bases that can be taken and objects that can be destroyed in the Melee. But no one really cares. Not like they do in a Scenario.
If there is a attack on a base in the Melee and it is a little too hard, they just off some where easier. If a field defense gets a little too harry, the defends to drift off to pick their nose on another part of the map.
It is mob rule, with no individual resposibility. No one has been assigned a task and feels resposibility to the team to get it done. It's just...whatever dude.
Since there is no real mission, then it comes down to peoples petty little dogfights. They expect you not to bomb their fighter hangar. They expect you to fly past their 1v1 and not interfere. Tankers throw a fit if you bomb their Veh hangar. They can't concieve you are actually trying to accomplish something, because its the Melee. Just go bomb some other base. Don't interrupt their little circle jerk with your mission hangup!
In a FSO where there are real missions and points to be captured within the frame which is ending in 1 hour, that kind of dilitante mentality would be impossible to even form. It would be nonsensicle.
You can't just say "Let's all pretend the Melee is an FSO." It doesn't work that way. There is no agreed upon structure or responsibility. It was a circle jerk when you logged in, and it will be a circle jerk when you log off. There is no sense of immediacy or the need to push through an attack or defense at any cost within the time constriants of a frame.
It's just a bunch of lolly-gagging and nose picking and don't dare ruin my little pointless dogfight.
Post by: guncrasher on December 27, 2019, 11:47:35 PM
I disagree. I do not think the Melee has objectectives like a FSO or a Scenario and that is exactly the point. I undertand there are bases that can be taken and objects that can be destroyed in the Melee. But no one really cares. Not like they do in a Scenario.
If there is a attack on a base in the Melee and it is a little too hard, they just off some where easier. If a field defense gets a little too harry, the defends to drift off to pick their nose on another part of the map.
It is mob rule, with no individual resposibility. No one has been assigned a task and feel resposibility to the team to get it done. It's just...whatever dude.
Since there is no real mission, then it comes down to peoples petty little dogfights. They expect you not to bomb their fighter hangar. They expect you to fly past their 1v1 and not interfere. Tankers throw a fit if you bomb their Veh hangar. They can't concieve you are actually trying to accomplish something, because its the Melee. Just go bomb some other base. Don't interrupt their little circle jerk with your mission hangup!
In a FSO where there are real missions and points to be captured within the frame which is ending in 1 hour, that kind of dilitante mentality would be impossible to even form. It would be nonsensicle.
You can't just say "Let's all pretend the Melee is an FSO." It doesn't work that way. There is no agreed upon structure or responsibility. It was a circle jerk when you logged in, and it will be a circle jerk when you log off. There is no sense of immediacy or the need to push through an attack or defense at any cost within the time constriants of a frame.
It's just a bunch of lolly-gagging and nose picking and don't dare ruin my little pointless dogfight.
perhaps we should treat the ma the same way fso is and we would have more players from fso joining during the week. or maybe like somebody posted a thread a month or 2 ago, if you would only stop complaining in the bb and fly the ma our numbers would be up. but ego is a hard thing to lose.
semp
lately some of the biggest fights I have seen are over taking a base. we have had bombers, heavy jabos, tanks, defenders are 1/2 of our horde along with their own tanks and m3's. we will fight 1 or 2 hours over that base, taking it down, they resupply, we take it down....
you know, why the fights ends? because about a thirds of the friendly planes are there to pick and vulch. they dont care about actually taking the base, once the jabos and bombers stop coming, you think the fight will continue as they are more than enough to keep it going, but nope it ends. some players like to stay high up, while the rest of us are low on the ground then they dive in and clear our 6 or 12 then climb back up.
that's what I see anyway.
semp
edit: we talk about this constantly on squad chanel on pigs squad night
edit2: i misunderstood you, I apologize.
Post by: FESS67 on December 27, 2019, 11:52:57 PM
I disagree. I do not think the Melee has objectectives like an FSO or a Scenario, and that is exactly the point. I undertand there are bases that can be taken and objects that can be destroyed in the Melee. But no one really cares. Not like they do in a Scenario.
If there is a attack on a base in the Melee and it is a little too hard, they just off some where easier. If a field defense gets a little too harry, the defends to drift off to pick their nose on another part of the map.
It is mob rule, with no individual resposibility. No one has been assigned a task and feels resposibility to the team to get it done. It's just...whatever dude.
Since there is no real mission, then it comes down to peoples petty little dogfights. They expect you not to bomb their fighter hangar. They expect you to fly past their 1v1 and not interfere. Tankers throw a fit if you bomb their Veh hangar. They can't concieve you are actually trying to accomplish something, because its the Melee. Just go bomb some other base. Don't interrupt their little circle jerk with your mission hangup!
In a FSO where there are real missions and points to be captured within the frame which is ending in 1 hour, that kind of dilitante mentality would be impossible to even form. It would be nonsensicle.
You can't just say "Let's all pretend the Melee is an FSO." It doesn't work that way. There is no agreed upon structure or responsibility. It was a circle jerk when you logged in, and it will be a circle jerk when you log off. There is no sense of immediacy or the need to push through an attack or defense at any cost within the time constriants of a frame.
It's just a bunch of lolly-gagging and nose picking and don't dare ruin my little pointless dogfight.
I think the issue with the MA 'objectives' is that most of the time the player base does not merit the objective. What I mean by that is we have a squad sized force on each side yet the objectives require a company or regiment sized force to take. It leads to marginal fights.
Post by: CptTrips on December 28, 2019, 12:07:42 AM
you know, why the fights ends? because about a thirds of the friendly planes are there to pick and vulch. they dont care about actually taking the base,
OK, but isn't that just another variation of Melee "no on really gives a fk"? Instead of, don't interfere with my pointless little dogfight, its, don't interfere with my pointless vulching.
Would that happen in a Scenario or would they get the order to get their tails back to base, recover, prepare for the next phase.
There are things that could be done to improve the Melee experience if people had open minds, but regardless, you are never going to turn it into an FSO/Scenario.
That's why so many who have tried both, prefer the intensity and sense of resposibilty and purpose of Scenarios, and many find the Melee a hollow and unsatisfying substitute.
Post by: Ciaphas on December 28, 2019, 12:37:39 AM
Post by: CptTrips on December 28, 2019, 01:00:17 AM
Could that be a product of having to many options?
I guess you could say that.
You're always going to have less options when you have orders.
Commanders have all kinds of Scenraio constraints. Fields they can and can't use. Alt caps. Time constraints. Point goals.
The trade off is you get a higher sense of intensity and purpose. A deeper sense of coordination and cooperation to achieve victory within the constraints.
Those constriants are what make it a curated experience. As opposed to the Melee random everybody do what ever they want.
You know what makes the difference between a Beethoven concerto and my Sister's 8 year old brat banging on the piano for hours? Structure. :D
Post by: FBDragon on December 28, 2019, 01:21:02 AM
anybody noticed we had over 200 players loggin in last friday during fso? they were split between fso and ma. yeah I know back in the day we had a billion.
semp
amen!!! :cheers: :salute I pretty much just show up for FSO and Senario's
Post by: FLS on December 28, 2019, 05:00:54 AM
FLS, you are the consummate toxic insider. I have said it before and nothing that you bring to the forum dissuades me from my opinion. You add very little to any of the constructive threads and appear to exist just to throw cold water on the fire. Perhaps you should consider positives and add to the debate rather than negatives. Finally, when you do not have anything constructive to add, why not just say nothing? Why do you always need to subvert and dismiss others opinions?
So I'm OK as long as I agree that you have great ideas that just need a little polish but if I honestly disagree I'm a troll who should be cancelled? Did I get that right? :D
Post by: asterix on December 28, 2019, 08:42:32 AM
you know, why the fights ends? because about a thirds of the friendly planes are there to pick and vulch. they dont care about actually taking the base, once the jabos and bombers stop coming, you think the fight will continue as they are more than enough to keep it going, but nope it ends. some players like to stay high up, while the rest of us are low on the ground then they dive in and clear our 6 or 12 then climb back up.
that's what I see anyway.
edit: we talk about this constantly on squad chanel on pigs squad night
Maybe they just do not know what is needed because nobody tells them that in advance or asks them if they could do something else, so they go where the red icons are and do whatever they come up with. Often there is not enough information on MA to really care about something so one ends up doing whatever they feel like.
Post by: Lusche on December 28, 2019, 10:33:56 AM
Last tour there were 1096 pilots in the MA (with at least one kill or death). For FSO I found 162 individual pilots in the same month (~14%)
21 of the FSO pilots did not fly in the MA (at least not on that ID), 30 more did play less than 3 hours in the MA.
Post by: Vraciu on December 28, 2019, 01:47:52 PM
I think the issue with the MA 'objectives' is that most of the time the player base does not merit the objective. What I mean by that is we have a squad sized force on each side yet the objectives require a company or regiment sized force to take. It leads to marginal fights.
This.
Agree with your prior posts as well.
Post by: bbosen on December 28, 2019, 03:53:59 PM
bbosen, I had completely forgotten about you running AH/AH2 on Linux....iirc wasn't you a Scout Leader and created your Lan Party for your scout troop and your own kids back when you created/designed all those training missions, etc... You were 1 of a very small few that was able to play AH2 successfully on Linux using one of the emulators (wine?)... Always found your posts interesting back then when you was telling the AH community of what you were doing ....
Your mentioning that you have designed/coded your very own "Linux Air Combat Simulator/Game" sounds awesome and I'm intrigued, is it private for your personal use with your kids or have you hosted it anywhere as "open source" if you don't mind me asking..... Just curious....
:salute
TC
Yes, that's me. Thanks for asking. I call it "Linux Air Combat" or "LAC" and it's open-source. If you flew any of my offline AH2 missions you will recognize the general feel of LAC... I was able to re-use a lot of the mission sound effects and concepts from my AH2 work. It's LINUX-only and missions are limited to just 10 players each. Graphics are primitive. Here's the main web site:
https://askmisterwizard.com/2019/LinuxAirCombat/LinuxAirCombat.htm
:salute
Post by: FESS67 on December 28, 2019, 04:40:15 PM
So I'm OK as long as I agree that you have great ideas that just need a little polish but if I honestly disagree I'm a troll who should be cancelled? Did I get that right? :D
No
Post by: Saxman on December 29, 2019, 10:05:20 AM
I disagree. I do not think the Melee has objectectives like an FSO or a Scenario, and that is exactly the point. I undertand there are bases that can be taken and objects that can be destroyed in the Melee. But no one really cares. Not like they do in a Scenario.
If there is a attack on a base in the Melee and it is a little too hard, they just off some where easier. If a field defense gets a little too harry, the defends to drift off to pick their nose on another part of the map.
It is mob rule, with no individual resposibility. No one has been assigned a task and feels resposibility to the team to get it done. It's just...whatever dude.
Since there is no real mission, then it comes down to peoples petty little dogfights. They expect you not to bomb their fighter hangar. They expect you to fly past their 1v1 and not interfere. Tankers throw a fit if you bomb their Veh hangar. They can't concieve you are actually trying to accomplish something, because its the Melee. Just go bomb some other base. Don't interrupt their little circle jerk with your mission hangup!
In a FSO where there are real missions and points to be captured within the frame which is ending in 1 hour, that kind of dilitante mentality would be impossible to even form. It would be nonsensicle.
You can't just say "Let's all pretend the Melee is an FSO." It doesn't work that way. There is no agreed upon structure or responsibility. It was a circle jerk when you logged in, and it will be a circle jerk when you log off. There is no sense of immediacy or the need to push through an attack or defense at any cost within the time constriants of a frame.
It's just a bunch of lolly-gagging and nose picking and don't dare ruin my little pointless dogfight.
One thing that I noticed WT doing is that even the death match modes have some sort of objective that will pop up on the screen, IE to attack a troop position in Sector X, defend a base in Sector A, etc. However WT fails to make those objectives actually MATTER, since victory is still largely tied to who has the most aircraft in the air when the game times out. All those objectives really do is determine the bonus at game's end.
This is something that Aces High's Main Arena, with the fact that getting shot down means you can just hop back in a new plane and rejoin the fight, could and arguably SHOULD take advantage of.
Imagine if the game would set specific objectives required to "Win The War," rather than simply tie it to % of the map your chess piece controls. Those objectives would be dynamic, with new ones popping up as they're completed. Maybe your country is "ordered" to capture a particular field, then upon completion, the next objective is to bomb a fuel factory into rubble.
Post by: Vraciu on December 29, 2019, 11:22:51 AM
One thing that I noticed WT doing is that even the death match modes have some sort of objective that will pop up on the screen, IE to attack a troop position in Sector X, defend a base in Sector A, etc. However WT fails to make those objectives actually MATTER, since victory is still largely tied to who has the most aircraft in the air when the game times out. All those objectives really do is determine the bonus at game's end.
This is something that Aces High's Main Arena, with the fact that getting shot down means you can just hop back in a new plane and rejoin the fight, could and arguably SHOULD take advantage of.
Imagine if the game would set specific objectives required to "Win The War," rather than simply tie it to % of the map your chess piece controls. Those objectives would be dynamic, with new ones popping up as they're completed. Maybe your country is "ordered" to capture a particular field, then upon completion, the next objective is to bomb a fuel factory into rubble.
That would be awesome.
I think total victory of at least one side should be required (minus the uncapturables perhaps). Can you imagine the resistance that would spring up as you narrowed in on a country's last few bases? Talk about Stalingrad-style resistance. Would be outstanding.
That's why I loved the two-sided war in WBs. You could see the fronts moving and marching toward the choke point. The battle to hold the perimeter was like 1950 in Korea. Awesome stuff.
Post by: ccvi on December 29, 2019, 01:30:18 PM
I think total victory of at least one side should be required (minus the uncapturables perhaps). Can you imagine the resistance that would spring up as you narrowed in on a country's last few bases? Talk about Stalingrad-style resistance. Would be outstanding.
That's how it was in the early days. Map change when one side had lost all fields. Later was down to 3 fields. Caused many people on the losing side to log.
A country-wide random goal would cause a massive horde. Fine-grained small goals to provide ideas what to do would make more sense. Could be player created (fitting the strategic situation), and grant a per modifier bonus on designated targets for pkayers on that mission.
Totally unrelated, supplies should drop rebuild time by a percentage (e.g. 10%). That avoids 3 quick drops bring fields under attack back to full instantaneously, and would help with excessive rebuild-time when factories are down. Resupply countering factory-issues, not a tactical element of defense.
Even more unrelated, enter should open the chat bar.
Ceterum censeo...
Post by: Vraciu on December 29, 2019, 02:23:10 PM
That's how it was in the early days. Map change when one side had lost all fields. Later was down to 3 fields. Caused many people on the losing side to log.
A country-wide random goal would cause a massive horde. Fine-grained small goals to provide ideas what to do would make more sense. Could be player created (fitting the strategic situation), and grant a per modifier bonus on designated targets for pkayers on that mission.
Totally unrelated, supplies should drop rebuild time by a percentage (e.g. 10%). That avoids 3 quick drops bring fields under attack back to full instantaneously, and would help with excessive rebuild-time when factories are down. Resupply countering factory-issues, not a tactical element of defense.
Even more unrelated, enter should open the chat bar.
Ceterum censeo...
People quit any way. Some form of balancing would be helpful in that regard.
The idea of winning a war because you capture some random percentage of fields never made much sense to me. I find the win-the-war-goals to be quite esoteric. I don't want to read a spreadsheet with numbers. I want a visual representation of what's happening and an idea of what is needed to win. Then again, I really don't care about winning precisely because the criteria for doing so is not intuitive.
So I'll help out with a base take just because there is action there, but as for flipping maps, meh. Not interested.
Your idea actually has some merit.
Post by: CptTrips on December 29, 2019, 02:56:10 PM
One thing that I noticed WT doing is that even the death match modes have some sort of objective that will pop up on the screen, IE to attack a troop position in Sector X, defend a base in Sector A, etc. However WT fails to make those objectives actually MATTER, since victory is still largely tied to who has the most aircraft in the air when the game times out. All those objectives really do is determine the bonus at game's end.
This is something that Aces High's Main Arena, with the fact that getting shot down means you can just hop back in a new plane and rejoin the fight, could and arguably SHOULD take advantage of.
Imagine if the game would set specific objectives required to "Win The War," rather than simply tie it to % of the map your chess piece controls. Those objectives would be dynamic, with new ones popping up as they're completed. Maybe your country is "ordered" to capture a particular field, then upon completion, the next objective is to bomb a fuel factory into rubble.
Interesting.
Maybe another way you could do it is allow the ranking player on each country to define Strategically Vital Targets by marking fields/cities/strats/ports etc. on the map. Maybe there are 3 SVT allowed per country and they can be overridden based on rank like CV routes. Once marked these could show up on all country mates CBM and notified as set in a text msg. Maybe there is a zone around a SVT that awards 2x perk points for all enemy planes/vehicles/objects destroyed in the SVT zone. A little sweetener to get players attention. :D If it's placed on enemy assets it implies attack. If it is places on country owned assets, it implies defense.
That at least keeps the game-play in players hands. Kind of like the command staff in a Scenario.
$0.02.
Post by: Ciaphas on December 29, 2019, 03:15:56 PM
Interesting.
Maybe another way you could do it is allow the ranking player on each country to define Strategically Vital Targets by marking fields/cities/strats/ports etc. on the map. Maybe there are 3 SVT allowed per country and they can be overridden based on rank live CV routes. Once marked these could show up on all country mates CBM and notified as set in a text msg. Maybe there is a zone around a SVT that awards 2x perk points for all enemy planes/vehicles/objects destroyed in the SVT zone. A little sweetener to get players attention. :D If it's placed on enemy assets it implies attack. If it is places on country owned assets, it implies defense.
That at least keeps the game-play in players hands. Kind of like the command staff in a Scenario.
$0.02.
Remember when our own squads would get with other squads and plan out a few missions? Yeah, those were the good days.
Post by: CptTrips on December 29, 2019, 03:29:07 PM
Remember when our own squads would get with other squads and plan out a few missions? Yeah, those were the good days.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/517PS80V2PL._SY445_.jpg)
Post by: The Fugitive on December 29, 2019, 05:08:58 PM
How much was developed for Combat tour?
How could be used in todays game?
How much work/time would it take to implement it?
Could these things have been used as mini auto missions to pop up at certain times/conditions for a team to join/run for a reward?
Post by: DmonSlyr on December 29, 2019, 08:29:45 PM
Post by: CAV on December 31, 2019, 10:41:05 AM
Quote
If they can get into combat more quickly, dieing quickly isn't that big of a deal.
That just gets you what we have now a furballin-arcade game. They can get that from a XBOX/PS game or War Thunder, World of Warships, or World of Tanks... and no $15 subscription.
Being the best Combat Simulation online gets HTC the $15 a month.........and new players, maybe.
Post by: hitech on December 31, 2019, 11:37:13 AM
I wish HTC could incorporate some of what they had built for "Combat Tour" (I think that is what it was called). I know there was talk of players building their "players" in the game working toward ranks. I think there were other things like achievements that single players and maybe even groups could work toward.
How much was developed for Combat tour?
How could be used in todays game?
How much work/time would it take to implement it?
Could these things have been used as mini auto missions to pop up at certain times/conditions for a team to join/run for a reward?
We already have implemented much of Combat Tour into AH.
Achievements were implanted.
AI Missions were implemented.
The Reconnect system was from CT.
The only major system that has not been integrated into AH is the Tank/RPG aspects.
HiTech
Post by: GrandpaChaps on December 31, 2019, 02:29:58 PM
I love this game, too. It has caused me both intense frustration and endless fun. It’s one of those challenges that I relish.
Amen. I think that's universal!
:aok
Post by: Vraciu on December 31, 2019, 02:53:37 PM
Amen. I think that's universal!
:aok
:aok :salute
Post by: gatt on January 01, 2020, 04:27:44 AM
Maps are really the only thing that will keep the #s higher. There should be a new map coming out every quarter. It doesn't matter how fast they get rolled. It matters if they provide action. I think what many people fail to realize is that new players DO NOT want to spend their time flying around aimlessly for 30 minutes before they get into contact with an enemy. If they can get into combat more quickly, dieing quickly isn't that big of a deal. That's why these new faster games have brought in more people. New players need to know what dar bars are and how they work. With smaller maps and 13-15 mile fields, it makes the fights bigger in certain spots, makes it less spread out, and provides more of a "path to victory" approach. That's where the big fights happen. That's where the #s go.
Well, #'s are high when and players can find planes, graphics and action. I left AH2 a long time ago. Actually, I'm playing WT (realistic battles) in these days. Yes, the joystick calibration is a nightmare and the mouse thing simply ridiculous. But I enjoy all the italian fighters AH never had and probably will never have. Not to mention the countless planes of all nationality and their variants. I enjoy the gorgeous graphics (I'm lucky to have a powerful PC). Bomber intercepts (I play only those) are fascinating to play. Contrails, rain, clouds, tracers, sounds, graphic effects ... simply beautiful. And when you fly historical you are up against the right enemies, not Bf109 against FW's. Last but not least, yes, I know I'll find my target in 5/10 minutes after take off (or respawn). Anyway, I miss the old AH2 times a lot. However, AH is so behind the new games ...
Post by: SirNuke on January 01, 2020, 05:34:31 AM
Post by: Lusche on January 01, 2020, 05:47:08 AM
are the huge maps still on with these kind of numbers?
The huge maps had been retired two or three years ago.
Post by: Vraciu on January 01, 2020, 08:53:56 AM
The huge maps had been retired two or three years ago.
The maps seem huge NOW. What were they like before?
Post by: Saxman on January 01, 2020, 09:09:06 AM
Well, #'s are high when and players can find planes, graphics and action. I left AH2 a long time ago. Actually, I'm playing WT (realistic battles) in these days. Yes, the joystick calibration is a nightmare and the mouse thing simply ridiculous. But I enjoy all the italian fighters AH never had and probably will never have. Not to mention the countless planes of all nationality and their variants. I enjoy the gorgeous graphics (I'm lucky to have a powerful PC). Bomber intercepts (I play only those) are fascinating to play. Contrails, rain, clouds, tracers, sounds, graphic effects ... simply beautiful. And when you fly historical you are up against the right enemies, not Bf109 against FW's. Last but not least, yes, I know I'll find my target in 5/10 minutes after take off (or respawn). Anyway, I miss the old AH2 times a lot. However, AH is so behind the new games ...
If AH had graphics and environment effects on par with WT — and ALL of the aircraft were up to that standard. We still have some aircraft that are pre-AH2 models, and only a handful like the Wildcats that are fully AH3 standard — that would go a LONG way towards attracting new players. The dated visuals are one of the main complaints I see on reviews today.
I do prefer the "AvA" setup of WT's Realistic Battles as well, I don't know why that mode was never as popular in AH. Although per usual, the PTO is underrepresented in terms of maps.
And I'm still of the opinion that AH should double down on the simulator aspects as part of its identity. If WT wants to be an arcade shooter, then ramp up the realism of AH to make it stand apart.
Post by: Chris79 on January 01, 2020, 09:11:24 AM
Well, #'s are high when and players can find planes, graphics and action. I left AH2 a long time ago. Actually, I'm playing WT (realistic battles) in these days. Yes, the joystick calibration is a nightmare and the mouse thing simply ridiculous. But I enjoy all the italian fighters AH never had and probably will never have. Not to mention the countless planes of all nationality and their variants. I enjoy the gorgeous graphics (I'm lucky to have a powerful PC). Bomber intercepts (I play only those) are fascinating to play. Contrails, rain, clouds, tracers, sounds, graphic effects ... simply beautiful. And when you fly historical you are up against the right enemies, not Bf109 against FW's. Last but not least, yes, I know I'll find my target in 5/10 minutes after take off (or respawn). Anyway, I miss the old AH2 times a lot. However, AH is so behind the new games ...
I agree. Although I never had and probably never will mess with WT, I have been thinking about giving IL2 a try. From my experience in the small business world one has to constantly adapt to the ever changing dynamics of the market. I willfully admit that I have little knowledge in terms of the WW2 sim market but I do know that if one does not readily adapt to the ever changing market pressures that failure is inevitable.
Post by: The Fugitive on January 01, 2020, 09:22:22 AM
are the huge maps still on with these kind of numbers?
Define "huge". The original maps were 15x15. Most of the newer map are now 19x19. I dont remember how big the "Fester" map, or the one with the super high mountain ranges splitting the three countries were, but with the low numbers these days the small 15x15 original maps are the only ones that feel like it has a half decent flow.
Post by: Lusche on January 01, 2020, 09:34:59 AM
The maps seem huge NOW. What were they like before?
My earlier post above turned out to be largely incorrect. I forgot that with Bowlma, AH still has at least one 20x20 terrain up.
I just thought of the similar huge maps like Ozkansas, TAGMA, Trinity and Compello.
Though Bowlma is somewhat more 'focused' than those.
Post by: Lusche on January 01, 2020, 09:36:36 AM
I dont remember how big the "Fester" map, or the one with the super high mountain ranges splitting the three countries were,
That was Trinity, 20x20
Post by: TheBug on January 01, 2020, 09:50:48 AM
..., I have been thinking about giving IL2 a try.
In case you didn't know now would be the time to give it a try. They are currently having their holiday sale that lasts until tomorrow. I picked up Battle of Stalingrad, Kuban and Moscow. All three combined was cheaper than one at the normal price. But if you just wanted to give it a try you can get one for $12 and some change. Can't comment on whether I like it or not since I have only installed them. Till I have the time to sit down and get into it it is just easier to jump into AH when I get a small window to actually play a game. Just figured I would mention it.
Post by: Chris79 on January 01, 2020, 09:53:11 AM
In case you didn't know now would be the time to give it a try. They are currently having their holiday sale that lasts until tomorrow. I picked up Battle of Stalingrad, Kuban and Moscow. All three combined was cheaper than one at the normal price. But if you just wanted to give it a try you can get one for $12 and some change. Can't comment on whether I like it or not since I have only installed them. Till I have the time to sit down and get into it it is just easier to jump into AH when I get a small window to actually play a game. Just figured I would mention it.
Thank you
Post by: ccvi on January 01, 2020, 10:54:15 AM
Can't comment on whether I like it or not since I have only installed them. Till I have the time to sit down and get into it it is just easier to jump into AH when I get a small window to actually play a game. Just figured I would mention it.
This probably goes both ways. I guess there is people who are actively playing WT or IL2, and have downloaded and installed AH, but cannot find the time to configure and/or try.
The difference to your case is, that if they find the time (or free up their time for that, having "no time" but playing is just making up excuses) to try AH they are looking $15/month compared to $0 currently. In your case, you already paid, and it doesn't matter for them if you try it or not. But even with a potential reduction of monthly cost you choose to not free up sufficient time to even try.
There's quite some inertia. Seems like peoples comfort zones is with exactly the configuration and flight-models they are used to. Any change would mean an immediate reduction of skill level, with new learning required. Probably one of the reasons why there's still as many players as there are.
Understanding why there's still players left might help to understand how have we lost so many people to this wonderful game (hey, that's right there in the subject) and then maybe why there are no new ones.
- no motivation to re-learn flying (see above): prevents new players from other sims
- want to complete the collect-25k-perks achievement: not interesting for someone who never played here (I guess no-one ever said "ok, let's start playing word of warcraft to complete all achievements", that works by becoming addicted first and then choosing the most time-consuming goal available)
- married to the community: prevents new players (married to their current communities)
- scenarios / special events: not really motivating much for new players, because not much can be experienced during the two free weeks; also, aren't their kind of game rounds in the other games, which are basically little scenarios, minus human interaction and flying around for an hour to maybe end up in a fight?)
- prefer the open-world war aspect of the main arena: the only thing where AH is really different?
Anything missing?
Post by: gatt on January 01, 2020, 11:01:59 AM
I do prefer the "AvA" setup of WT's Realistic Battles as well, I don't know why that mode was never as popular in AH. Although per usual, the PTO is underrepresented in terms of maps.
What is interesting about historical matches is that the two sides adopt different tactics. Some axis players climb hard to intercept allied bombers while other go to stop allied fighter/bombers at medium low altitude. The allied side seems much more intersted to ground pounding than to fighter vs fighter. However, sometimes you find escorted bombers and then it is very difficult to get to the bombers. Something I dont remember at all in AH (scenarios apart, of course).
Well WT is arcade in many ways but sometimes it gets pretty close to what I'd like to have in a combat sim.
Post by: Saxman on January 01, 2020, 11:20:33 AM
In case you didn't know now would be the time to give it a try. They are currently having their holiday sale that lasts until tomorrow. I picked up Battle of Stalingrad, Kuban and Moscow. All three combined was cheaper than one at the normal price. But if you just wanted to give it a try you can get one for $12 and some change. Can't comment on whether I like it or not since I have only installed them. Till I have the time to sit down and get into it it is just easier to jump into AH when I get a small window to actually play a game. Just figured I would mention it.
The problem with the Il-2 Battle Of Series is I'm STILL waiting for the @#$%ing PTO. Those are the planes I'm interested in flying. I've been over the ETO since Aces Over Europe, and never cared at all about the Eastern Front. The only reason I even picked up the full version of Il-2: 1946 and all its expansions is because they half-assed Pacific Fighters as a standalone game, and the only way to fix it was to get the full suite.
Post by: Oldman731 on January 01, 2020, 11:21:01 AM
I do prefer the "AvA" setup of WT's Realistic Battles as well, I don't know why that mode was never as popular in AH.
Couple of reasons. Probably the more important is that people want to fly their favorite plane. As well, there is a very small time frame when the AvA PTO and ETO plane sets are competitive, mostly in late 1943 for the ETO (although the Spit 9 throws everything off), and 1945 for PTO. Availability of the La5FN gives the Russian front a longer competitive period, but see Reason One for why it isn't popular. If you just throw "all Allied v all Axis" planes together, the plane sets heavily favor the Allies.
Still, I'm with you. It was usually a challenge to fly with the crippled side, but I enjoyed working to become competent in those planes.
- oldman (who is still working at it, with questionable success)
Post by: Saxman on January 01, 2020, 11:26:13 AM
Well WT is arcade in many ways but sometimes it gets pretty close to what I'd like to have in a combat sim.
I've made my list of what I thought WT did well that Aces High ought to consider, and got screamed down the second I even HINTED at Complex Engine Management being implemented the same way turning off Stall Limiter and Engine Governor already is for my trouble.
Post by: Mongoose on January 01, 2020, 11:50:09 AM
My earlier post above turned out to be largely incorrect. I forgot that with Bowlma, AH still has at least one 20x20 terrain up.
I just thought of the similar huge maps like Ozkansas, TAGMA, Trinity and Compello.
Though Bowlma is somewhat more 'focused' than those.
The map that is up now, Riftval, is 9 1/2 sectors across. That come out to about 237 miles across. Most maps now days will be about 225 to 250 miles across.
Post by: FLS on January 01, 2020, 12:00:58 PM
I've made my list of what I thought WT did well that Aces High ought to consider, and got screamed down the second I even HINTED at Complex Engine Management being implemented the same way turning off Stall Limiter and Engine Governor already is for my trouble.
You got 'screamed down' by relatively polite disagreement. It must have really hurt.
Post by: Saxman on January 01, 2020, 12:08:06 PM
You got 'screamed down' by relatively polite disagreement. It must have really hurt.
Inventing definitions to disparage an idea does not qualify as "polite" in my book, while the entire disagreement ultimately amounted to foot-down "I don't want it and that's all there is to it."
Post by: Vraciu on January 01, 2020, 12:31:50 PM
And I'm still of the opinion that AH should double down on the simulator aspects as part of its identity. If WT wants to be an arcade shooter, then ramp up the realism of AH to make it stand apart.
:rofl
New players can't even takeoff as it is.
Making the game more difficult is definitely the missing key to success and expanded popularity. Definitely.
Post by: Vraciu on January 01, 2020, 12:32:55 PM
I've made my list of what I thought WT did well that Aces High ought to consider, and got screamed down the second I even HINTED at Complex Engine Management being implemented the same way turning off Stall Limiter and Engine Governor already is for my trouble.
Yeah, because we don't want it.
It's a pain in the arse that most people don't feel like dealing with via a keyboard.
And I don't recall anyone screaming at you, either. :noid
Post by: ccvi on January 01, 2020, 01:27:45 PM
And suddenly 109s are replacing the spits and yaks as beginner planes.
Post by: FLS on January 01, 2020, 02:26:53 PM
Inventing definitions to disparage an idea does not qualify as "polite" in my book, while the entire disagreement ultimately amounted to foot-down "I don't want it and that's all there is to it."
I reread the thread and missed the screaming. What does it matter if one or more players don't like your ideas? The only opinion that affects the game is Hitech's and he seems to prefer the current system.
Made up definitions and exaggerations are both detrimental to productive conversation.
In my experience what you had was relatively polite. :D
You may disagree. :aok
Post by: DmonSlyr on January 01, 2020, 02:49:14 PM
My earlier post above turned out to be largely incorrect. I forgot that with Bowlma, AH still has at least one 20x20 terrain up.
I just thought of the similar huge maps like Ozkansas, TAGMA, Trinity and Compello.
Though Bowlma is somewhat more 'focused' than those.
Bowlma is horrendous during off hours. So difficult to find a fight when you have to fly across the oceans. All teams can't fight against each other. Everyone spread out. Just too damn big.
I'm telling ya, it's base distance and being able fight all sides at the same time that is key.
Who wants to sit there and fly for 5-8 minutes across the oceans to fight maybe 1 or 2 guys in P51s at 1am? It's just too slow.
Even with smaller maps, far distances defeat the purpose.
There should be a concerted effort to make as many maps as possible (and promote them outside of the forums so people know).
Post by: TheBug on January 01, 2020, 02:58:14 PM
This probably goes both ways. I guess there is people who are actively playing WT or IL2, and have downloaded and installed AH, but cannot find the time to configure and/or try.
The difference to your case is, that if they find the time (or free up their time for that, having "no time" but playing is just making up excuses) to try AH they are looking $15/month compared to $0 currently. In your case, you already paid, and it doesn't matter for them if you try it or not. But even with a potential reduction of monthly cost you choose to not free up sufficient time to even try.
There's quite some inertia. Seems like peoples comfort zones is with exactly the configuration and flight-models they are used to. Any change would mean an immediate reduction of skill level, with new learning required. Probably one of the reasons why there's still as many players as there are.
Understanding why there's still players left might help to understand how have we lost so many people to this wonderful game (hey, that's right there in the subject) and then maybe why there are no new ones.
- no motivation to re-learn flying (see above): prevents new players from other sims
- want to complete the collect-25k-perks achievement: not interesting for someone who never played here (I guess no-one ever said "ok, let's start playing word of warcraft to complete all achievements", that works by becoming addicted first and then choosing the most time-consuming goal available)
- married to the community: prevents new players (married to their current communities)
- scenarios / special events: not really motivating much for new players, because not much can be experienced during the two free weeks; also, aren't their kind of game rounds in the other games, which are basically little scenarios, minus human interaction and flying around for an hour to maybe end up in a fight?)
- prefer the open-world war aspect of the main arena: the only thing where AH is really different?
Anything missing?
I play games I like and don't play games I don't like. It is as simple as that for me being just a player the developers can figure out the rest. I haven't tried IL-2 yet, just because I picked it up a couple days ago and hadn't had a large enough window of sober free time to dive into figuring out the controls. I have lots of games, AH included, that I wish I had more time play and don't find any real need to be married to just one of them. But AH is definitely the only game that ever held my attention for the years that it has/had. AH firing on all cylinders, in my opinion, is the best PC game I have ever played. It just unfortunately hasn't been firing on all cylinders very often these days to really draw me in.
Players speculating why people are leaving or promoting game changes beyond a mere suggestion in the wishlist forum is a complete waste of time. The best place for players to have an impact is within the game itself. Promote a fight, a base capture, a squad, a mission, the history, etc... Promote it to bring in the GV guys, the bomber guys, the fighter guys. When that all clicks AH really shines above them all. It also helps develop a sense of community which has the sticking power. I know it is not easy, I have tried it. You get a lot of flak from your own country men, but it does work. And always funny to see the guys giving me a hard time when I try to get a fight started end up in the fight I was pushing for.
Post by: ccvi on January 01, 2020, 04:24:15 PM
There should be a concerted effort to make as many maps as possible
Making maps is not very motivating. I tried. I'm not even sure whether the one single feedback I got is the result of a misunderstanding or not.
Post by: SirNuke on January 01, 2020, 04:53:01 PM
Post by: Ciaphas on January 01, 2020, 05:11:05 PM
Maybe the maps should be 10x10 or so? Doesn't matter how much people there is if there is enough player concentration for the action to develop?
I think smaller maps with shorter field separation distances would be worth looking in to.
There are a few of us that are working on maps at the moment and I wouldn't mind throwing a smaller map together with smaller field separation to load as a player arena to try out.
Post by: Chalenge on January 01, 2020, 10:23:23 PM
Post by: fuzeman on January 17, 2020, 10:20:58 PM
Aces High has a STEEP learning curve and is hard to learn. Most call that a disadvantage.
I remember the scene from Gene Hackman's 'Enemy of the State' when he talked about turning your disadvantages into advantages. Against a big attacker, a smaller guy is nimble and maneuverable, for example.
Off on a tangent here, I really don't think Gene Hackman would have make a good Kowalski in 'Vanishing Point' although he was one of the Director's, Richard C. Sarafian, preferred choices.
Back to my point, is there anyway to make the toughness to learn Aces High an advantage or work for the game?
Post by: CptTrips on January 17, 2020, 10:32:29 PM
Off on a tangent here, I really don't think Gene Hackman would have make a good Kowalski in 'Vanishing Point' although he was one of the Director's, Richard C. Sarafian, preferred choices.
Damn I feel old knowing what your talking about.
Great flick. :aok
Post by: Eagler on January 18, 2020, 09:53:39 AM
2100 EST
Some of the best fun in AH3 IMO!
Hope to see you there!
<S>
Eagler
Post by: FESS67 on January 18, 2020, 01:45:26 PM
Bowlma is horrendous during off hours. So difficult to find a fight when you have to fly across the oceans. All teams can't fight against each other. Everyone spread out. Just too damn big.
I'm telling ya, it's base distance and being able fight all sides at the same time that is key.
Who wants to sit there and fly for 5-8 minutes across the oceans to fight maybe 1 or 2 guys in P51s at 1am? It's just too slow.
Even with smaller maps, far distances defeat the purpose.
There should be a concerted effort to make as many maps as possible (and promote them outside of the forums so people know).
I no longer play. The slow pace of the game is one of the major reasons why.
I spend my time in World of Warships now. I buy the premium account and spend on camouflages, special ships etc.
My gaming experience is:
- Wait around a minute for a battle, up to 3 minutes in off peak
- Manoeuvre for a couple of minutes to get into position
- Fight like mad for 5 to 10 minutes
- Rinse - repeat
20 minutes per match on average and most of that is spent actively fighting. As soon as my guns reload I am firing again.
Compare that to the AH experience where I could go 30 minutes without really engaging an enemy. I was finding that more and more I was doing low level jabo runs against towns getting ripped up by AI guns, augering and going again. If I was to fly home that flight would have taken 20+ minutes just to drop a couple of bombs. Very large maps (relative to population) does not promote active fronts and the result is low combat density and since I play these types of games for the fight not the scenery I finally gave up on AH.
Post by: Ramesis on January 18, 2020, 02:23:19 PM
Damn I feel old knowing what your talking about.
Great flick. :aok
I'm feeling old as well Cpt... "Vanishing Point" was the flic one of my
first dates to... hold it! … the Drive-In :D
Post by: CptTrips on January 18, 2020, 02:39:20 PM
I'm feeling old as well Cpt... "Vanishing Point" was the flic one of my
first dates to... hold it! … the Drive-In :D
OK. I'm not THAT old. :rofl
I remember watching it on the late night TV movie years later (~'75-76?). :old:
Post by: Drano on January 18, 2020, 03:17:04 PM
Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
Post by: CptTrips on January 18, 2020, 03:24:37 PM
That the one where the bulldozers won in the end?
Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
Not really. The dozers weren't trying to stop him. They were trying to make him submit to the MAN!
Not quite as good as Cool-hand Luke, but along the same vein. It was the 70's. ;)
Post by: skillet83 on January 23, 2020, 04:49:36 PM
At one point someone hacked HiTEch and started dropping nuclear bombs in the arena, literally. A few days later it was shut down. Maybe if there was a way to bring that back, I think would result in a percentage of those players would convert to the pay side. Just a thought.
Post by: Arlo on January 23, 2020, 05:59:24 PM
I spent some time reading through parts of this thread, thought I would throw my 2 cents in here as a 17-18 year paying member. When I joined up here, I think it was through a free FFA arena that was available. Had to pay to get into the main arenas. It was through that free FFA arena that brought me over to the pay side. There were a lot of people in there and was a lot of fun. I recall it was instant action, everyone against everyone, some had unlimited ammo options. I know it had a watermelon ton of players.
At one point someone hacked HiTEch and started dropping nuclear bombs in the arena, literally. A few days later it was shut down. Maybe if there was a way to bring that back, I think would result in a percentage of those players would convert to the pay side. Just a thought.
(http://bodyhacks.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/l.jpg)
Post by: Lusche on January 23, 2020, 06:04:06 PM
(http://bodyhacks.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/l.jpg)
He's talking about the old player hosted arenas.
Maybe if there was a way to bring that back, I think would result in a percentage of those players would convert to the pay side. Just a thought.
They are back for many years. "Custom Arenas"
Post by: Oldman731 on January 23, 2020, 07:37:45 PM
They are back for many years. "Custom Arenas"
True.
Many people, some who are active, some who are not, have said that they started out in the old player-hosted arenas. Is there perhaps something more to be done to let noobs know that they can still do that? Or is it simply an absence of people who are hosting those arenas?
- oldman
Post by: CptTrips on January 23, 2020, 08:09:09 PM
True.
Many people, some who are active, some who are not, have said that they started out in the old player-hosted arenas. Is there perhaps something more to be done to let noobs know that they can still do that? Or is it simply an absence of people who are hosting those arenas?
- oldman
The arena can't be left up continually, so they have to happen along when one is running.
Simply being on another tab. I'm serious. Especially a tab labeled "Player".
Post by: Mongoose on January 23, 2020, 11:05:42 PM
True.
Many people, some who are active, some who are not, have said that they started out in the old player-hosted arenas. Is there perhaps something more to be done to let noobs know that they can still do that? Or is it simply an absence of people who are hosting those arenas?
- oldman
I was suggesting something similar some time ago. I have even tried it a couple of times. Use a custom arena to host an event for new players or potential players. My problem is I can't find a way to get potential players to come to the event.
Post by: DmonSlyr on January 24, 2020, 12:24:15 PM
Free For All
Team deathmatch
I have not seen this. Only TAs room does this. Naming is important, map choice is also important.
It would be great if hosters could log off and keep their arena open. I find one of the biggest problems is that there is no consistency in custom arenas staying up. If there was a FFA or team death match that was always open on a good map, I recon a lot more people would check it out.
We greatly need a substitute for the Match Play.
Arenas like the old H2H work, just no one has ever made a custom arenas similar, accept TA, and that's normally only open late at night.
Post by: streakeagle on January 24, 2020, 08:45:15 PM
While the VR implementation is top notch, I don't see Aces High changing in any way useful or fun to me. When my prepaid 6 months runs out, I will certainly cancel. Unless there is some kind of radical change/massive growth in the community, I doubt I will ever subscribe again.
Post by: Shuffler on January 25, 2020, 10:44:21 AM
Post by: CptTrips on January 25, 2020, 11:45:43 AM
I am always curious as to how many folks one person can fight at a time. I was in H2H for some time before I subscribed.
You can have fun in a 8 person H2H arena, no doubt. But that is not a massively-multiplayer-online-game, which what people used to be paying for in Aces High. If number get down to 50 players, you might as well be a IL2 lobby. Numbers decline are recursive. As more people leave, more people leave because more people have left.
I'm not saying that to criticize Aces High or embarrass Hitech. I'm sure Hitech in private would admit a continued numbers decline is an existential threat. The current numbers trend is not sustainable long term. It has to be reversed. Period. Full stop.
I'm not saying it to be a downer. I'm saying it because the people who see no problem are often the most resistant to any significant change because they see no need for change. If everything is peachy-ducky then you just keep doing what you've always been doing, forever. That approach will not end well, and the status quo will not reverse the trend.
I'm not at the level of doom Streakeagle is. ;) I think the game still has some runway. It better use it.
Post by: Lusche on January 25, 2020, 11:59:17 AM
I am always curious as to how many folks one person can fight at a time.
A lot of people if you don't limit the concept of "a fight" to pure 1v1 dogfighting.
What held me here for years, even as a lone wolf type of player, was the dynamics of a huge persistant battlefield with hundreds of players and dozens of squads I fought with and against in a myriad of different ways.
I wasn't just fighting by yanking my stick in a duel vs a single player. I was fighting by learning my opponents strategies, by trying to guess their next moves, studying the map for their possible targets, getting to know the modus operandi of those famous landgrab squads & alliances.
Also, fighting those scenario like huge raids was especially fun for me, in particular those escorted high altitude bombing (B-29) raids (or escorting them myself). Oh the memories of a three sector full darbar creeping across the map... :x
Post by: The Fugitive on January 25, 2020, 12:26:05 PM
A lot of people if you don't limit the concept of "a fight" to pure 1v1 dogfighting.
What held me here for years, even as a lone wolf type of player, was the dynamics of a huge persistant battlefield with hundreds of players and dozens of squads I fought with and against in a myriad of different ways.
I wasn't just fighting by yanking my stick in a duel vs a single player. I was fighting by learning my opponents strategies, by trying to guess their next moves, studying the map for their possible targets, getting to know the modus operandi of those famous landgrab squads & alliances.
Also, fighting those scenario like huge raids was especially fun for me, in particular those escorted high altitude bombing (B-29) raids (or escorting them myself). Oh the memories of a three sector full darbar creeping across the map... :x
THIS!
Fighting isnt about a 1 vs 1, as so many have said in the past "Thats what the dueling arena is for!". Its about the WHOLE GAME! GVs vs GVS, air 2 air, air to ground, missions, tactics, strategies all of it combined. That is what make this game better than any other.
Unfortunately to see that kind of action you need better numbers.
Post by: atlau on January 25, 2020, 08:49:50 PM
Post by: FLS on January 26, 2020, 07:47:17 AM
I have been playing Aces High for quite a long time... from late 2000? or early 2001? I had way more fun in the original free HTH before it was turned off than I ever had in the Main Arena. There were regulars playing HTH almost every night. Some of them were subscribers. Some of them were top-notch pilots known to the Main Arena and forums. The one good thing about the main arena was the incredible number of people flying/fighting at the same time. The current numbers are horrible. Too low to have the kind of fun the Main Arena is supposed to provide. In its present state, I rarely play AH. If I log in nearly every night, I only have fun maybe 1 night in 10. Whereas I can have fun every single minute of every single night playing DCS World or even the IL-2 Battle series.
While the VR implementation is top notch, I don't see Aces High changing in any way useful or fun to me. When my prepaid 6 months runs out, I will certainly cancel. Unless there is some kind of radical change/massive growth in the community, I doubt I will ever subscribe again.
The players who aren't having fun in the MA have options but they keep going to the MA instead of fighting like minded players in any sort of arena they'd like to set up.
Post by: Ciaphas on January 26, 2020, 09:04:42 AM
The players who aren't having fun in the MA have options but they keep going to the MA instead of fighting like minded players in any sort of arena they'd like to set up.
It's interesting, when the MA would see 350-400 people, you would see aspects of the different options available to players. Let's be honest here:
1. Massive squad vs squad battles. I've joined in on several of them wearing the colors 91st and C-hawks.
2. Dueling against other pilots in huge three sided fureballs that had no other purpose than to duel it our with your sworn enemy chess pieces.
3. Selecting vital enemy targets, coordinating with other squads and setting out to break our targets. Almost always getting bounced by the enemy and having to fight our way in and fight our way out.
It's not that the MA doesn't offer these other types of play, it's that the people left for a more "exclusive" experience. I wonder how many people there are that play in scenarios, FSO, other special events that never enter or rarely enter the MA.
Can anyone get that information?
:salute
Post by: FLS on January 26, 2020, 09:32:22 AM
Post by: Shuffler on January 26, 2020, 09:52:32 AM
We all would like to see more in the arena. In the end though, with lower numbers, how many can you fight at once? Using numbers as an excuse is just that... an excuse. 500, 300, 150, just an excuse for the real reason a person is not playing.
People get tired of games, in cases where games hold on to folks a long time they lose them to old age and passing away. Some just can't get the hang of it or feel they don't want to play anymore because they can't keep playing at a certain level. In the end most use the numbers excuse or as part of the excuse. They are part of the numbers....
People spend so much time talking about numbers that they are infected with that instead of actually flying. It's like a disease on the BBS and unless something is done about that, the host may not survive.
Post by: Ciaphas on January 26, 2020, 10:19:03 AM
Moving forward,
Petitioning individuals who shifted from an MA existence to an FSO, SEA existence would offer a tremendous amount of information.
I think Hitech should off current members of the board a survey. For members who play the game but have zero presence on the BBS, link the survey in a CB slide out that requires the player to acknowledge, accept or reject participation in the survey.
One interesting things about numbers, they never lie. They may tell you something you dislike but they don't lie.
:salute
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Slate on January 26, 2020, 11:03:31 AM
Went to the MA, I had fun last night! 122 players in arena. Killed, Died, saluted.
This cup of tea is not for everyone and getting players that try it to subscribe because they had fun is essential. I would not mind paying my $14.95 and having Noobs pay $9.95 for 6 months.
When Billy Mays sold a product it had to be at the proper price point or it would not sell. $19.95 was the top. What is the price to sell AH3 with all the F2P games out there?
Post by: CptTrips on January 26, 2020, 11:19:10 AM
The point is that if you are fighting three, your hands are full. If you are fighting five, many start whining about being ganged.
No, Shuffler, that is not the point. That is your point. Did you even read what Lusche wrote and make an honest attempt at understanding what he was saying?
We all would like to see more in the arena. In the end though, with lower numbers, how many can you fight at once? Using numbers as an excuse is just that... an excuse. 500, 300, 150, just an excuse for the real reason a person is not playing.
Are you saying that Lusche is lying about the reasons he closed his account? Or are you saying he is just delusional and you understand better than him why he closed his account?
There is certainly a natural attrition to any game from simple burn-out. But it doesn't sound to me that is the reason Lusche left. The numbers, scale, complexity, and variety of gameplay devolved to a point where he made the decision that it was no longer the MMOG he had started paying for.
And old player burn-out doesn't explain why new player conversion rate has gone from ~12% to ~1%. So next you will just insult the current market by calling them a bunch of skinny jeans millenials who are lazy and want everything for free, don't care about WWII and need a haircut and a job! That might make you feel better, but it doesn't solve the numbers or revenue problem.
People spend so much time talking about numbers that they are infected with that instead of actually flying. It's like a disease on the BBS and unless something is done about that, the host may not survive.
Perhaps you should just provide a Soviet-approved list of happy-thoughts that comrades are allowed to express without fear of being denounced by the Aces High Political Commissars?
Post by: CptTrips on January 26, 2020, 11:41:20 AM
A lot of people if you don't limit the concept of "a fight" to pure 1v1 dogfighting.
What held me here for years, even as a lone wolf type of player, was the dynamics of a huge persistant battlefield with hundreds of players and dozens of squads I fought with and against in a myriad of different ways.
I wasn't just fighting by yanking my stick in a duel vs a single player. I was fighting by learning my opponents strategies, by trying to guess their next moves, studying the map for their possible targets, getting to know the modus operandi of those famous landgrab squads & alliances.
Also, fighting those scenario like huge raids was especially fun for me, in particular those escorted high altitude bombing (B-29) raids (or escorting them myself). Oh the memories of a three sector full darbar creeping across the map... :x
Common Lusche... you only need yourself and two other players for all that. Five players would be a gang-bang! Stop making excuses. :rolleyes:
Post by: TwinBoom on January 26, 2020, 11:46:26 AM
When I seen commercial on history channel I logged on to a main arena to where I was brutally murdered over and over.
I grew frustrated very quickly and almost quit. So I decided one day my love for warbirds was great I logged on again to H2H, it was 8 players Free I believe where I was subjected to same butt whooping's but at a slower pace.
8 player allowed me to learn ACM and hone my skill at a slower pace. Many thanks to Lazer and Shufflers beating me in my old MK5 Spit vs their 38's. I wore grooves in the runway taking off but, I got better with smaller group. As I got better it helped me get hungry for more Targets thus made me pay for subscription. My time in H2H helped me to survive longer in the mains. Then with H2H Training I could further it in main arena without the overwhelming frustration that new players encounter. Im still not he best but, for the most part I can and most will admit I can hold my own in my B-38.
Mike aka TwinBoom
Post by: Shuffler on January 26, 2020, 12:05:31 PM
Probably the biggest players on now are capture the base types. No problem. Just run with them awhile. I tend to have fun whenever I am on. I prefer fireballs but can adjust.
Twinboom those days in H2H were a blast.
Post by: CptTrips on January 26, 2020, 12:11:17 PM
Just so some do not get confused here, as they often like to press their agenda, I never referenced Lusche in my above post.
No, you ignored what he said, and went on to claim that anyone who says the decline in numbers has harmed gameplay is just trying to make excuses.
Post by: popeye on January 26, 2020, 12:12:52 PM
Not sure how to get those who left to give it another shot.
Post by: Shuffler on January 26, 2020, 06:43:31 PM
Very late to this discussion, but (based on the online complaints that I was hearing at the time) I'd guess that a lot of AH2 players left during the transition to AH3 because of issues that have since been (mostly) fixed: trees and clouds. If the reach-out-and-grab trees, the twigs-that-stop-a-tank, and the frame-rate-killer-clouds had been refined to the present modeling, the transition would have been a lot less painful.
Not sure how to get those who left to give it another shot.
Quite a few had major issues with that. It affected everyone, many to a lesser degree. It was dicey.
Post by: hitech on January 27, 2020, 08:18:47 AM
I'd guess that a lot of AH2 players left during the transition to AH3 because of issues that have since been (mostly) fixed: trees and clouds. lot less painful.Your guess is wrong.
HiTech
Post by: Shuffler on January 27, 2020, 03:51:25 PM
Your guess is wrong.
HiTech
Well there ya go...... now back to my margarita. :D
I also have to put in the order for those new style blenders..... can't let SAPP down.
Post by: turt21 on January 27, 2020, 04:14:04 PM
Your guess is wrong.
HiTech
How can you tell why people leave other than the one answer questionaire when you leave?
Post by: guncrasher on January 27, 2020, 08:56:41 PM
Well there ya go...... now back to my margarita. :D
I also have to put in the order for those new style blenders..... can't let SAPP down.
wrong again, sapp always flows down.
semp
Post by: hitech on January 28, 2020, 08:33:15 AM
How can you tell why people leave other than the one answer questionaire when you leave?
You are asking the wrong question.The question is how can I tell that they did not leave because of AH3.
To do that I would move my lips ,toung and jaw while vibrating my vocal cords.
HiTech
Post by: FLS on January 28, 2020, 09:27:43 AM
One of the debates we have, and the thread title, is why people have left.
I assume there are different reasons and the questionnaire is there to look for trends that could be addressed.
Post by: Vraciu on January 28, 2020, 10:06:40 AM
I simply went and got a better video card. It wound up being a real bear to get the skin viewer to work with it. I still don't know what I changed to finally fix that issue. But it works now so I'm not changing anything. Lol
I also no longer play and numbers are the reason. I keep my sub and still work on skins, but my time flying is zero. I intend to see about changing that soon. If people can make their presence known then they might intice others to stick around.
Post by: Max on January 28, 2020, 10:33:17 AM
Post by: Vraciu on January 28, 2020, 11:02:03 AM
I don't play anywhere near the amount of time the "regulars" do, but when I log on it's usually around the same time of day..mid-morning & late afternoon EST. From my perspective, the numbers have been fairly consistent for the past year or two. Just sayin'
The Morning Crew Is a fraction of what it was two years ago.
Post by: Hajo on January 28, 2020, 11:30:22 AM
I saved the setting files from AH3 to my desktop but they didn't work when I replaced the settings file in the Game directory. I'm using windows 8.1 and having very little success setting the axis and buttons. <shrugz>
I'm using the CH Hotas setup.
Post by: FLS on January 28, 2020, 11:56:14 AM
Post by: Banshee7 on January 28, 2020, 11:57:11 AM
And to give my answer to the OP: time. I was in college when I quit playing, and obviously my time was spent elsewhere. When I did try logging back on, the fights were dull and numbers were down. Plus my PC at the time was outdated (worse than it was when I started playing). Now, I’ve gone about 6 years without internet at my house and no PC.
<S>
Josh
Post by: Vraciu on January 28, 2020, 12:01:59 PM
Aces High has the easiest controller setup I've used. What is the specific problem?
Once again, a condescending swipe instead of JUST an offer to help.
It may be easy to YOU or based on your limited exposure to other platforms. That doesn't make it so for the rest of the planet.
Speaking of which, his description of the problem was the easiest I've seen. What specific part of his request is the problem [in terms of understanding what he needs]?
Post by: FLS on January 28, 2020, 12:11:54 PM
Post by: hitech on January 28, 2020, 12:37:07 PM
Once again, a condescending swipe instead of JUST an offer to help.
It may be easy to YOU or based on your limited exposure to other platforms. That doesn't make it so for the rest of the planet.
Speaking of which, his description of the problem was the easiest I've seen. What specific part of his request is the problem [in terms of understanding what he needs]?
This was the straw if anyone is interested, starting a personal attack.
While this is just a very minor infraction it is one that should not happen from someone who has been warned.
HiTech
Post by: whiteman on January 28, 2020, 01:00:56 PM
Post by: Drano on January 28, 2020, 01:03:32 PM
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Post by: Spikes on January 28, 2020, 01:04:57 PM
You clowns better start practicing, because when this fiber optic hits my house in a few months I will be building a PC...Hurry back brother.
And to give my answer to the OP: time. I was in college when I quit playing, and obviously my time was spent elsewhere. When I did try logging back on, the fights were dull and numbers were down. Plus my PC at the time was outdated (worse than it was when I started playing). Now, I’ve gone about 6 years without internet at my house and no PC.
<S>
Josh
Post by: puller on January 28, 2020, 01:20:10 PM
This was the straw if anyone is interested, starting a personal attack.
While this is just a very minor infraction it is one that should not happen from someone who has been warned.
HiTech
I hate that... :rofl :rofl :rofl
:bolt: :bolt: :bolt:
Post by: Hajo on January 28, 2020, 01:20:50 PM
Aces High has the easiest controller setup I've used. What is the specific problem?
Thank you for responding. First of all when I went to 8.1 some years ago when going to Windows to calibrate even though the icon was up for the controller at times windows seemed not to know it was present.
I'd try to calibrate and nothing happened when I moved the controller or buttons. It recognizes the combat stick but the pedals I get no response at all. The throttle seems not to respond to the actual throttle. And yes I do select the appropriate controller before calibrating and programming buttons and axis. The Throttle on my Combat stick (left wheel on the controller base) However responds as a throttle but the Throttle controller does not. This has got this old man mumbling to himself.
Post by: Ciaphas on January 28, 2020, 01:26:48 PM
Thank you for responding. First of all when I went to 8.1 some years ago when going to Windows to calibrate even though the icon was up for the controller at times windows seemed not to know it was present.
I'd try to calibrate and nothing happened when I moved the controller or buttons. It recognizes the combat stick but the pedals I get no response at all. The throttle seems not to respond to the actual throttle. And yes I do select the appropriate controller before calibrating and programming buttons and axis. The Throttle on my Combat stick (left wheel on the controller base) However responds as a throttle but the Throttle controller does not. This has got this old man mumbling to himself.
I can't speak for CH products as I fly Saitek. I never install the controller apps. Those only seems jumble up my hotas. I plug in and play.
Are you using the most recent version of your controller software?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Drano on January 28, 2020, 01:29:28 PM
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Post by: Drano on January 28, 2020, 01:33:52 PM
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Post by: Ciaphas on January 28, 2020, 01:39:49 PM
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Post by: FLS on January 28, 2020, 02:34:06 PM
Thank you for responding. First of all when I went to 8.1 some years ago when going to Windows to calibrate even though the icon was up for the controller at times windows seemed not to know it was present.
I'd try to calibrate and nothing happened when I moved the controller or buttons. It recognizes the combat stick but the pedals I get no response at all. The throttle seems not to respond to the actual throttle. And yes I do select the appropriate controller before calibrating and programming buttons and axis. The Throttle on my Combat stick (left wheel on the controller base) However responds as a throttle but the Throttle controller does not. This has got this old man mumbling to himself.
I would skip calibrating in Windows.
Are you using the CH software? Is that required for the pedals etc to show up?
If all the controllers show up in Aces High just calibrate and set them up in the game.
Deselect the throttle on the stick to make it available for the throttle controller.
Post by: Drano on January 28, 2020, 02:46:39 PM
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Post by: guncrasher on January 28, 2020, 02:49:16 PM
if i recall correctly hitech requested permission to scan everybody's computer in anticipation of ah3. only a handful and i think less than 10 didn't have the necessary hardware.
semp
Post by: hitech on January 28, 2020, 03:19:39 PM
Also I have had times where I had to bring up "Setup USb Game controller" Find it by typing Joystick in the search windows of windows 10.
Then Hit the set to "Reset to default" button on the Properties/Settings tab for all sticks after first doing a clean boot with no stick software running.
If your stick is working in the Usb Game controllers it will work in AH.
HiTech
Post by: Hajo on January 28, 2020, 06:05:42 PM
Post by: Drano on January 28, 2020, 06:32:07 PM
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Post by: Ciaphas on January 28, 2020, 08:02:55 PM
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Post by: TequilaChaser on February 03, 2020, 07:53:41 AM
Thanks all. I've never used Control Manager to play AH. As I said I'm using windows 8.1. I've always setup my controllers using the AH app in game.
Hey Wayne, I'm using Windows 8.1 Pro and all CH products hotas (fighterstick, pro throttle, 25+ yr old gameport regular CH rudder pedals non-pro type using gameport to USB adapter)
Hit me up pm or call me if you still have my mobile, I'll help you out.... I don't use CH manager software either
~S~
TC
Post by: Hajo on February 03, 2020, 11:23:46 AM
Now, this is not a criticism. It's something to think about. I had in the 80s' an 8088 PC that required a 31/2 disc of DOS 2.1 to boot. At that time I got into the autoexec.Bat file to modify and remark to free more memory so that I could play a game (Their Finest Hour etc.) In other words I made my own Boot Discs for the games I played. I believe I had 256K of memory then. I later added another 256K to make it 512K. The memory cards back then were almost as large as a modern Video Card. Anyway to shorten this, I'm thinking someone new who wishes to program his controllers can have a myriad of problems configuring buttons and axis while trying to simply set up his controls. HT has an easy way but a somewhat time consuming process to set up ones Hotas. A new player probably with little patience, and knowledge of the hardware, after 20 minutes just may say to hell with this. He/She may just not know one of their controllers has a problem and has no clue on how to rectify the situation. A long time friend, Lazer and I discussed this on line a few nights ago after I got up and running. Lazer, since I've known him has always used a mouse and he's the best mouse Pilot I've seen in AH.
In closing I know it is going to be time consuming to program all my buttons and axis on my CH Hotas. A new player unless they read carefully and have knowledge of their hardware just may get discouraged easily. And also they may be using his/hers Hotas in another game and not know that they may have a hardware problem on one of their controllers. I recognized the spiking by observing the input numbers being not steady and moving up and down rapidly. Something they wouldn't know just by looking. I have no idea what can be done to help the new player having problems setting up his controllers. In reality it can and may be a pain in the arse. I know I just went through this. I have no idea how we could make it easier and less time consuming to set up controllers.
Just a thought not a criticism. Wish I had a magic wand. I'm wondering if this could be a problem that discourages new players from joining.
Post by: Shuffler on February 03, 2020, 02:57:54 PM
Post by: Oldman731 on February 03, 2020, 07:58:40 PM
I had in the 80s' an 8088 PC that required a 31/2 disc of DOS 2.1 to boot. At that time I got into the autoexec.Bat file to modify and remark to free more memory so that I could play a game (Their Finest Hour etc.) In other words I made my own Boot Discs for the games I played. I believe I had 256K of memory then. I later added another 256K to make it 512K. The memory cards back then were almost as large as a modern Video Card.
Curse you, Red Baron. You are making me feel old. Very old. Even older than I usually feel.
Glad your controls work. Hope to see you flying.
- oldamn
Post by: Hajo on February 03, 2020, 08:07:27 PM
Curse you, Red Baron. You are making me feel old. Very old. Even older than I usually feel.
Glad your controls work. Hope to see you flying.
- oldamn
Thanks oldman.
Post by: FLS on February 03, 2020, 08:12:24 PM
Post by: Arlo on February 03, 2020, 08:29:53 PM
(https://www.myabandonware.com/media/screenshots/m/mig-alley-ace-75l/mig-alley-ace_3.png)
He never could figure out how I knew he was on my tail when I went in to 'crazy evasion' mode. ;)
Post by: Shuffler on February 03, 2020, 11:33:24 PM
Oh wow DOS gets new clothes... windows 3.0 and then 3.1. What? Who is Johnny Castaway?
Post by: ACE on February 04, 2020, 06:38:29 AM
This was the straw if anyone is interested, starting a personal attack.
While this is just a very minor infraction it is one that should not happen from someone who has been warned.
HiTech
You don’t owe us an explanation. That clown has been doing dirty stuff on these boards for a while now. Like for example calling people names getting a response and then editing his original post. Lame stuff.
Post by: Palace Cobra on February 04, 2020, 09:06:27 AM
You don’t owe us an explanation. That clown has been doing dirty stuff on these boards for a while now. Like for example calling people names getting a response and then editing his original post. Lame stuff.
I never saw him do that but your pattern shows you stalked the guy all over the boards. LET IT GO.
Post by: 100Coogn on February 04, 2020, 09:15:08 AM
I never saw him do that but your pattern shows you stalked the guy all over the boards. LET IT GO.Hmm. So you Just joined the BBS and your first post is to defend Vraciu... (Who could this be?) :rofl
Coogan
Post by: Palace Cobra on February 04, 2020, 09:26:24 AM
Hmm. So you Just joined the BBS and your first post is to defend Vraciu... (Who could this be?) :rofl
Coogan
I’m not defending him, I’m calling ACE out. Big difference.
You guys wonder why this game is dying? Add your post to the list of reasons. It’s always an attack on anyone who doesn’t toe the party line. Toxic.
Post by: FLS on February 04, 2020, 09:29:23 AM
Let it go is good advice if you can manage it.
Post by: 100Coogn on February 04, 2020, 09:30:21 AM
I’m not defending him, I’m calling ACE out. Big difference.
You guys wonder why this game is dying? Add your post to the list of reasons. It’s always an attack on anyone who doesn’t toe the party line. Toxic.
If you say so Boomer.
Coogan
Post by: Palace Cobra on February 04, 2020, 09:31:26 AM
If you say so Boomer.
Coogan
I’m 38. Try again.
Post by: Ciaphas on February 04, 2020, 09:32:23 AM
You don’t owe us an explanation. That clown has been doing dirty stuff on these boards for a while now. Like for example calling people names getting a response and then editing his original post. Lame stuff.
While no explanation is needed by Hitch, there are a few things that do need to be cleared up.
A lot of those edits that you see in his post where because of me getting a hold of him and telling him to soften his posts a bit, some of them were done for spelling and sure, some of them may have been used to snipe with. No more passive aggressive than any other person on these boards in a conversation in which they are adamant. You all were rude to each other in just about every encounter you had. The difference is I believe you all knew what buttons to push to receive the response that you wanted and he fell for it every time.
Does that make any of his responses right? No.
Does that mean that it absolves you guys of your role in those conversations? No.
He's a grown man and is accountable for his actions like the rest of us.
Just remember it takes two to tango.
In the end Hitech saw it fit to remove him from the forums for his posts.
Post by: redcatcherb412 on February 04, 2020, 09:32:32 AM
I had in the 80s' an 8088 PC that required a 31/2 disc of DOS 2.1 to boot. At that time I got into the autoexec.Bat file to modify and remark to free more memory so that I could play a game (Their Finest Hour etc.) In other words I made my own Boot Discs for the games I played. I believe I had 256K of memory then. I later added another 256K to make it 512K. The memory cards back then were almost as large as a modern Video Card.Dang kids and their newfangled electronics. You needed to cut your teeth on the old S100 system like the IMSAI. Just had to make sure you new all the hex codes to boot it and get the switches right. That monster had a power supply that could dim the lights on the whole block as it warmed up your 4K of RAM. RAM expansion was easy, a 2nd mortgage and another huge box to add. :aok
Welcome back Hajo. :salute
(http://www.vintagecomputer.net/vcfmw-ECCC_2013/IMSAI-8080_MLee.jpg)
Post by: Lusche on February 04, 2020, 09:33:24 AM
I never saw him do that but your pattern shows you stalked the guy all over the boards. LET IT GO.
Welcome to the AH BBS, new guy. :)
Post by: Ciaphas on February 04, 2020, 09:33:55 AM
Dang kids and their newfangled electronics. You needed to cut your teeth on the old S100 system like the IMSAI. Just had to make sure you new all the hex codes to boot it and get the switches right. That monster had a power supply that could dim the lights on the whole block as it warmed up your 4K of RAM. RAM expansion was easy, a 2nd mortgage and another huge box to add. :aok
Welcome back Hajo. :salute
(http://www.vintagecomputer.net/vcfmw-ECCC_2013/IMSAI-8080_MLee.jpg)
Holy Dinasuar
Post by: Palace Cobra on February 04, 2020, 09:38:30 AM
Welcome to the AH BBS, new guy. :)
Thanks, Lusche. I’m actually a retread considering a return. I stumbled into this mess on my second day back. Hard to believe it’s come to this.
Post by: FLS on February 04, 2020, 10:05:37 AM
Post by: ACE on February 04, 2020, 12:48:29 PM
Post by: JOACH1M on February 04, 2020, 02:17:11 PM
:rofl
Post by: Mano on February 04, 2020, 03:54:37 PM
Dang kids and their newfangled electronics. You needed to cut your teeth on the old S100 system like the IMSAI. Just had to make sure you new all the hex codes to boot it and get the switches right. That monster had a power supply that could dim the lights on the whole block as it warmed up your 4K of RAM. RAM expansion was easy, a 2nd mortgage and another huge box to add. :aok
Welcome back Hajo. :salute
(http://www.vintagecomputer.net/vcfmw-ECCC_2013/IMSAI-8080_MLee.jpg)
That's funny. My first computer besides the Commodore 64 was an 8088 from Radio Shack. It did not come with a sound card so I had to buy one and install it. It did not work right away.......oh they had these things called IRQ's back then. I had to choose an IRQ that did not conflict with the other devices. :D
When I started playing Red Baron online some of the players had Pentium chips and their planes could turn faster.
Oh, I had to get one right away. LOL. So, I got a Pentium. :D I booted from Dos to play instead of Windows because there were more resources for the game. 16 colors LOL When you shot down another plane the animations were hilarious. Yep, things have changed a little. I just finished building a new computer and my only problem was installing Windows 10, but some online reading and a few changes to the motherboard bios and it was up and running in no time.
I hope we pick up more players. I love AH.
:salute
Post by: FLS on February 04, 2020, 04:05:18 PM
Post by: guncrasher on February 04, 2020, 05:11:03 PM
I’m not defending him, I’m calling ACE out. Big difference.
You guys wonder why this game is dying? Add your post to the list of reasons. It’s always an attack on anyone who doesn’t toe the party line. Toxic.
dude what you talking about, everybody knows he got the hammer because he makes steaks well done and uses a1 sauce. and we can't allow that kind of people.
semp
Post by: Drano on February 04, 2020, 05:51:18 PM
dude what you talking about, everybody knows he got the hammer because he makes steaks well done and uses a1 sauce. and we can't allow that kind of people.Was pretty much it for me too!
semp
Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
Post by: ACE on February 04, 2020, 07:31:58 PM
dude what you talking about, everybody knows he got the hammer because he makes steaks well done and uses a1 sauce. and we can't allow that kind of people.
semp
I was gonna say ketchup!
Post by: noman on February 05, 2020, 03:13:20 PM
Post by: ACE on February 05, 2020, 05:28:03 PM
What kind of monster puts ketchup on a steak. :rolleyes: Eat it medium rare with nothing but salt, pepper, mashed potatoes and brown gravy. Use the blood as a dipping sauce.
Was at a restaurant the other week. Ordered a Dry Aged ribeye, guy next to me did the same. He dipped his in ketchup. A 60$ steak got the ol Heinz treatment. I was appalled to say the least.
I’m like you. All I need is the blood from the Medium cook.
Post by: Trip on February 06, 2020, 12:21:15 AM
Post by: 1stpar3 on February 06, 2020, 03:51:58 AM
What kind of monster puts ketchup on a steak. :rolleyes: Eat it medium rare with nothing but salt, pepper, mashed potatoes and brown gravy. Use the blood as a dipping sauce.:rofl :rofl :rofl this makes 2...threads that deal with"Proper" Steak management! :rofl He burned his privileges here, just like he does his Steak :bhead A-1 and ketchup are reserved for those times, when Roast especially, get over cooked! Have to keep the ol' gal's morale high...otherwise I DO ALL the cooking. I have better things to do...with you fellers!
Post by: Shuffler on February 06, 2020, 05:53:07 AM
Subscription based games have become a thing of the past. Now we have gaming apps like Steam, among others, that offer games on sale and free games. Most people who play games are younger and are completely uninterested in flight sims, or simply can't afford to pay monthly to play a game. There is something in gaming akin to ADD, people want instant gratification, to get into the action and stay in it. Also, there are probably a lot of you who only play Aces High, I play other games, mostly on Steam. AH is on Steam but is not a true Steam game, we must get with the times. A one time price or maybe $9.99 per month, sales, rewards, etc. Aces High is truly a great game that has been slowly dying. Many of the original players are literally dying with the game. I love this game so much but have not played in quite some time, yet I still pay for my subscription. I'd consider myself a casual AH player but it is probably my favorite game ever.It is the best because it IS NOT a steam type game.
The so called free games are not free. No one works for free. You are being sold somehow for money.
Post by: OldNitro on February 06, 2020, 06:30:30 AM
Post by: Lusche on February 06, 2020, 09:20:03 AM
It is the best because it IS NOT a steam type game.
WTF is a "steam type game"?
Post by: Drano on February 06, 2020, 10:18:08 AM
Post by: BLINK on February 06, 2020, 10:49:00 AM
....The so called free games are not free. No one works for free. You are being sold somehow for money.
not true
here is a 100% free game... ;)
https://zerocluegaming.itch.io/eat-humans
there are actually plenty of free games now a days.
Post by: Shuffler on February 06, 2020, 11:23:02 AM
WTF is a "steam type game"?
Ask Trip.
Post by: Spikes on February 06, 2020, 11:33:32 AM
The so called free games are not free. No one works for free. You are being sold somehow for money.Just because a game is free to play does not mean they are selling your information. Two games in particular I play - SMITE and Warframe are both 100% free to play. There are micro-transactions in the game that help drive the economy and keep the game/devs afloat.
You can choose to buy whatever their 'premium' currency is and buy cosmetics, boosters, etc., but in both games you can make your way to the 'top' without spending a time if you so choose.
Post by: turt21 on February 06, 2020, 11:38:29 AM
Post by: FESS67 on February 07, 2020, 12:55:10 AM
Subscription based games have become a thing of the past. Now we have gaming apps like Steam, among others, that offer games on sale and free games. Most people who play games are younger and are completely uninterested in flight sims, or simply can't afford to pay monthly to play a game. There is something in gaming akin to ADD, people want instant gratification, to get into the action and stay in it. Also, there are probably a lot of you who only play Aces High, I play other games, mostly on Steam. AH is on Steam but is not a true Steam game, we must get with the times. A one time price or maybe $9.99 per month, sales, rewards, etc. Aces High is truly a great game that has been slowly dying. Many of the original players are literally dying with the game. I love this game so much but have not played in quite some time, yet I still pay for my subscription. I'd consider myself a casual AH player but it is probably my favorite game ever.
There are a couple of points in this that are pertinent to why I no longer play. I gave a more in depth list of reasons earlier in this thread but no one responded to that. The bottom line for me is the action has become too spread out, too infrequent and frankly too timid at times to even consider it a combat game anymore.
I play a free game now, WOWS and I spend more per month than I did on AH but I enjoy it and for me the enjoyment is #1.
The game is not too hard to learn, it is not too niche, it is too slow.
Post by: DmonSlyr on February 07, 2020, 04:02:38 PM
There are a couple of points in this that are pertinent to why I no longer play. I gave a more in depth list of reasons earlier in this thread but no one responded to that. The bottom line for me is the action has become too spread out, too infrequent and frankly too timid at times to even consider it a combat game anymore.
I play a free game now, WOWS and I spend more per month than I did on AH but I enjoy it and for me the enjoyment is #1.
The game is not too hard to learn, it is not too niche, it is too slow.
I think it being "too slow" is the exact reason besides controller set up, Along with the subscription which keeps many from playing in the most popular part of AH because they perceive it as being too expensive for their skill level.
Not sure why no one opens their own team death match or FFA arena, but that is another topic.
When I first started. I didnt understand why people would want to fly so damn far to a base and constantly die. That's why I enjoyed H2H so much. Now that match play has been over worked and there is no arena for fast action, it has made the MA the only actionable part of the game. But when bases are too far and maps have players scattered all over the place because there is no zone or objective. It keeps action low and slow. The majority of players come here for fighter action, and when that is slow, they don't stick around. This makes it slower and slower until there is just no point to rolling unless you want to jabo a field and die in 3 seconds to ack. That gets old after 2-3 sorties.
Post by: CptTrips on February 07, 2020, 04:14:15 PM
Not sure why no one opens their own team death match or FFA arena, but that is another topic.
Well, I guess that begs the question: Why don't you?
Post by: DmonSlyr on February 07, 2020, 07:48:01 PM
Well, I guess that begs the question: Why don't you?
I get about maybe 10-15 hours a month to play. That's mainly at 10PM (PST) western time. I cant leave my computer on all day. I'm not sure why so many did it in H2H compared to here. Maybe it worked better as a separate module like H2H was. I wish I had more time for video games. But I am just not at that point in my life right now.
Would be nice to see a popular ffa on a small map tho.
Post by: Shuffler on February 08, 2020, 02:19:34 AM
<snip> I wish I had more time for video games. But I am just not at that point in my life right now.
<snip>
... and there is the real reason you and many others do not play anymore.
Life changes for everyone.
Post by: whiteman on February 08, 2020, 04:38:05 AM
... and there is the real reason you and many others do not play anymore.
Life changes for everyone.
Yep, I’ve been in and out for the last 6 years. Finally in a spot to stick around for a long while.
Post by: alskahawk on February 08, 2020, 04:53:53 AM
AlskaHwk
Post by: ACE on February 08, 2020, 10:31:36 AM
The reason myself and most of Loose Deuce left was the game play. The game wasn't fun anymore. The game play isn't there. I would go into all the reasons but they have been said before.I feel ya. There isn’t many targets at 30k.
AlskaHwk
Post by: BLINK on February 08, 2020, 01:55:08 PM
I feel ya. There isn’t many targets at 30k.
:rofl
Post by: Arlo on February 08, 2020, 01:55:58 PM
:rofl
:rofl
Post by: BLINK on February 08, 2020, 02:06:24 PM
I feel ya. There isn’t many targets at 30k.:rofl
:rofl:rofl
Post by: Arlo on February 08, 2020, 02:16:54 PM
:rofl :rofl
:rofl :rofl
:rofl :rofl
:rofl :rofl(Agreed, Ace's post was funny. :cool:
Post by: save on February 08, 2020, 07:17:01 PM
The new radar setting was the big thing for me, I like the fog of war with the earlier radar setting , flying my ENY 15-30 planes with the new settings were close to suicide.
No new planes to play with for many years.
Many maps are still too large to have any fun in Euro TZ (30-50 players)
Yak3 and B26 damage model : anyone with any sense of realism know it is something really wrong with them, but no fix.
What kept me in game these last 2 years :
Scenarios !!! - hats off for those who made these events happen, they gave me the adrenaline rush I came for- most were Euro-TZ friendly.
TS with my squad that once had a span of 11 Time Zones - Alaska to Israel !
I will be lurking here to see what future AH will hold.
Post by: 1stpar3 on February 09, 2020, 03:33:37 AM
The reason myself and most of Loose Deuce left was the game play. The game wasn't fun anymore. The game play isn't there. I would go into all the reasons but they have been said before.And I for ONE, miss you guys! BW1stpar here! We had some EPIC FIGHTS(You,Save and others) vs Me and The BlackWidows(usually just me and BWDelta and BWRickG)! Those were some epic fights! You fellers will be forever etched in my memories :rock
AlskaHwk
Post by: 1stpar3 on February 09, 2020, 03:44:13 AM
I cancelled my account for number of reasons :As I stated in my response to Alskahawh's post...MISS YOU GUYS! Those where the BEST OF TIMES...even if it was only because you were ROFLOL while sliding down a steep hillside! Think it was in the Debut of Buzzsaw map? Good times! :rock BW1stpar PS: Could ya at least tell Orelle, to go easy on me? :rofl Love you guys! :salute
The new radar setting was the big thing for me, I like the fog of war with the earlier radar setting , flying my ENY 15-30 planes with the new settings were close to suicide.
No new planes to play with for many years.
Many maps are still too large to have any fun in Euro TZ (30-50 players)
Yak3 and B26 damage model : anyone with any sense of realism know it is something really wrong with them, but no fix.
What kept me in game these last 2 years :
Scenarios !!! - hats off for those who made these events happen, they gave me the adrenaline rush I came for- most were Euro-TZ friendly.
TS with my squad that once had a span of 11 Time Zones - Alaska to Israel !
I will be lurking here to see what future AH will hold.
Post by: Lusche on February 09, 2020, 04:31:09 AM
I feel ya. There isn’t many targets at 30k.
Total unironically: It was a sad moment for me when the central strats were split up, because all of the sudden those big escorted long range high alt bombing raids almost completely disappeared.
I very much liked those battles at 30k.
Post by: ACE on February 09, 2020, 12:17:53 PM
(Agreed, Ace's post was funny. :cool:
Only sometimes :)
Post by: BaldEagl on February 09, 2020, 12:32:28 PM
We all would like to see more in the arena. In the end though, with lower numbers, how many can you fight at once? Using numbers as an excuse is just that... an excuse. 500, 300, 150, just an excuse for the real reason a person is not playing.
I posted earlier about many of the reasons I left the game. This time I'll relate a short story that could easily have been added to that list.
I logged on one night, I believe it was about 1:00 AM Central (not exactly prime time) to the old pinwheel map (forget the actual name). None of our bases had been captured so no matter what I was going to have to fly across a channel (2-3 sectors) to find a fight. All the dar bars indicated likely single opponents across the channels. So I upped and headed toward one of those dar bars. Just as I was about to get there the dar bar disappeared and the next closest one was three sectors away. My choice at this point was to fly home, bail or fly toward the next dar bar. I always flew to kill or be killed so I headed toward the next dar bar. It too disappeared by the time I got there. Finally, after flying two sectors back in the direction I had just come from, I got to engage a bomber. This was a 9-10 sector flight to get one kill and land.
Numbers do matter. Spending 20, 30 or 40 minutes simply looking for someone to engage isn't really much fun. And to answer your earlier question, 4. That's how many I've survived against (on multiple occasions) fighting them all at once on my own. Five is too many.
Post by: Banshee7 on February 09, 2020, 02:27:01 PM
<S>
Josh
Post by: The Fugitive on February 09, 2020, 03:36:10 PM
Post by: Shuffler on February 09, 2020, 04:44:36 PM
I posted earlier about many of the reasons I left the game. This time I'll relate a short story that could easily have been added to that list.
I logged on one night, I believe it was about 1:00 AM Central (not exactly prime time) to the old pinwheel map (forget the actual name). None of our bases had been captured so no matter what I was going to have to fly across a channel (2-3 sectors) to find a fight. All the dar bars indicated likely single opponents across the channels. So I upped and headed toward one of those dar bars. Just as I was about to get there the dar bar disappeared and the next closest one was three sectors away. My choice at this point was to fly home, bail or fly toward the next dar bar. I always flew to kill or be killed so I headed toward the next dar bar. It too disappeared by the time I got there. Finally, after flying two sectors back in the direction I had just come from, I got to engage a bomber. This was a 9-10 sector flight to get one kill and land.
Numbers do matter. Spending 20, 30 or 40 minutes simply looking for someone to engage isn't really much fun. And to answer your earlier question, 4. That's how many I've survived against (on multiple occasions) fighting them all at once on my own. Five is too many.
That is exactly why it is important to look at the map and find the fights. It could be that neither side was attacking your side. It happens sometimes. Pop over on another side and go to the fights. Much better than chasing folks who are just milking or learning to fly.
Post by: Banshee7 on February 09, 2020, 05:02:20 PM
They do, but also some of the new maps Bustr has made. Some maps do seem to feel too big for the numbers we seem to pull at this time.
That was one of my biggest concerns from an outsider POV. On average, what would you say the #’s are during the week.
Post by: The Fugitive on February 09, 2020, 05:09:05 PM
That was one of my biggest concerns from an outsider POV. On average, what would you say the #’s are during the week.
100-120 on a week night, 120-150 on a weekend, seems about average these days. Friday nights sometimes jump up a bit as FSO players pop in before FSO to "warm up", but once FSO starts the numbers tank.
Post by: DmonSlyr on February 09, 2020, 05:17:48 PM
Total unironically: It was a sad moment for me when the central strats were split up, because all of the sudden those big escorted long range high alt bombing raids almost completely disappeared.
I very much liked those battles at 30k.
What was the reason for this? It seemed that zone strats worked well.
What I believe would help a lot is a zone on the map that is more important than other areas. This zone would get you double the perks and points for kills or bombings. This zone would be known as the popular area to fight in as it is the most important spot on the map. There would be 3 zones on the map that update as bases get taken. This would give players an incentive to fight in a certain spot and a path to action. Players could still fight where they wanted and roll where they wanted.
I think it would help a lot to create bigger fights that are more actionable.
That is exactly why it is important to look at the map and find the fights. It could be that neither side was attacking your side. It happens sometimes. Pop over on another side and go to the fights. Much better than chasing folks who are just milking or learning to fly.
Sometimes it's very difficult to determine which side to switch to because of often times the side with the less #s doesnt have a fight or is winning the fights currently on the map that would still make rolling boring. Its sometimes a gamble to know which team to switch to for the best fight.
Post by: Banshee7 on February 09, 2020, 05:42:48 PM
100-120 on a week night, 120-150 on a weekend, seems about average these days. Friday nights sometimes jump up a bit as FSO players pop in before FSO to "warm up", but once FSO starts the numbers tank.
While not the 5-600 I remember back in the day, that’s still better than I thought (and what others have suggested).
Post by: Nefarious on February 09, 2020, 06:38:20 PM
Post by: SmokinLoon on February 12, 2020, 02:53:04 PM
since Jan 2008. $15 a month. I sometimes don't play for months at a time, but I do keep tabs. Between life, work, major family activity (damned kids!), motorcycles, flying, hunting, reserve police officer duties, shoveling snow, and playing Post Scriptum.... time is short.
Eventually you'll see me in the skies again. ;)
Post by: yipi on February 12, 2020, 08:21:23 PM
Post by: Mak333 on February 12, 2020, 08:59:09 PM
I have been off and on since about 2014, from what I can remember. I've stopped playing due to the the lack in numbers to be honest. I'd play this over just about anything else, and what's "funny" is that while Aces High is over 20 years old, it's still a better game (by far) than anything new. And the reason why it is, is two fold: Game play and community.
I miss the good ole days, quite a bit actually. I remember the Main servers being full at 600, 650, 700 people. I would come back, but I think it's a collective loss. That is to say, I wish more people were on, but wishing doesn't do anything for numbers.
In any case, I might re-up the subscription for a couple of months and see how it goes.
Post by: Ciaphas on February 12, 2020, 10:39:53 PM
That logic has never made much sense and it never will.
*edit: I wonder how many people have left because of low numbers. On these forums I think I read posts from somewhere around 20 people (I could be wrong) who left for low numbers.
If they stayed in game, they would make up a third of the players online (roughly). That's one countries population at times or 6 players for each country with 2 players left over... .
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: FESS67 on February 13, 2020, 12:46:53 AM
Isn't stopping playing because of lower numbers creating even lower numbers?
That logic has never made much sense and it never will.
*edit: I wonder how many people have left because of low numbers. On these forums I think I read posts from somewhere around 20 people (I could be wrong) who left for low numbers.
If they stayed in game, they would make up a third of the players online (roughly). That's one countries population at times or 6 players for each country with 2 players left over... .
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Why do you say the logic does not make sense?
There are other factors at play however numbers and population density are important factors IMO. Population density has a big impact on gameplay dynamics and if a low population causes another aspect of the game to be adversely affected people will leave and the root cause is low player population density. It of course depends what the individual is after and there will vary person to person. We see this at play in other aspects of life so I am not sure why it does not make sense to you here.
The busy bar with hundreds of patrons will attract new patrons and retain existing ones far more than the same bar with only 10 patrons. Assuming of course the patrons want a lively experience.
AH is the same. We want a lively experience and what we get is 50 players in a venue built for 1000. It does not hold the attention enough to stay. The need here is to increase positive player interactions and that can be done by increasing population density per grid square. That means either more players or smaller rooms.
Post by: Ciaphas on February 13, 2020, 01:13:41 AM
Why do you say the logic does not make sense?
There are other factors at play however numbers and population density are important factors IMO. Population density has a big impact on gameplay dynamics and if a low population causes another aspect of the game to be adversely affected people will leave and the root cause is low player population density. It of course depends what the individual is after and there will vary person to person. We see this at play in other aspects of life so I am not sure why it does not make sense to you here.
The busy bar with hundreds of patrons will attract new patrons and retain existing ones far more than the same bar with only 10 patrons. Assuming of course the patrons want a lively experience.
AH is the same. We want a lively experience and what we get is 50 players in a venue built for 1000. It does not hold the attention enough to stay. The need here is to increase positive player interactions and that can be done by increasing population density per grid square. That means either more players or smaller rooms.
Take Mak33's post for instance. He left because of low player population numbers but his leaving adds to the player number loss, it's a circular argument. If players leave because of low player population density, they only add to the low player population density issue that they claim drove them away... .
A busy bar may attract new patrons but a bar is not always busy, they all have their slow times during the day. Expecting a bar to be packed 24 hours a day or when you show up is unrealistic and may lead to disappointment.
oh, by the way, I wasn't referring to those that left for various other RL reasons. I was referring to those that left due to low numbers. This was clearly stated in my post.
Post by: FESS67 on February 13, 2020, 02:09:25 AM
Yes, it is a circular argument. A downward spiral if you like. The problem is not for the client base to solve by not leaving, it is for the entertainment company to solve by retaining current customers and attracting new ones.
Post by: Shuffler on February 13, 2020, 07:07:19 AM
Post by: Ciaphas on February 13, 2020, 09:55:23 AM
I was not suggesting you were referring to RL issues.
Yes, it is a circular argument. A downward spiral if you like. The problem is not for the client base to solve by not leaving, it is for the entertainment company to solve by retaining current customers and attracting new ones.
It's interesting isn't it?
I mean in one hand you have those that leave because they want more players to shoot at.
And in the other hand those same players will not stick around so there will be more players... .
It's like complaining that you are broke but are unwilling to budget your finances to save money... .
crazy, I know... .
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Post by: TequilaChaser on February 13, 2020, 10:11:43 AM
I miss fighting 600 people at a time too. Very easy just fighting 140 people at a time. :devil
Like HiTech's thoughts on when Aces High when MA/LWA arenas started having 600+ players logged in playing, the arenas start turning into a big ol' cesspool and gameplay starts having a negative impact......350 to 500 was just about optimal before the "cesspool effect" would start to rear it's ugly head.....
For todays standard, with these huge maps, it would probably push that optimal # to 800 to a 1,000, most likely......
IMO, if you only have 20 to 30 players logged in playing, as long as you can get them all to want to actually "FIGHT", everyone would have just as much fun playing as you would have if 300~500 players playing.....
That is what makes Monday Night Madness in the AvA so fun.....everyone who shows up is there to actually do Air Combat......while in the MA you have those players that avoid dogfighting at all cost, unless they are in a group of 4 to 15 on 1 side, all jumping on the single enemy plane or maybe just 2 enemy planes winging.....
Just some of my thoughts from my experience flying Aces High for the last 20+ years
Cheers
TC
Post by: Wiley on February 13, 2020, 10:23:11 AM
It's interesting isn't it?
I mean in one hand you have those that leave because they want more players to shoot at.
And in the other hand those same players will not stick around so there will be more players... .
It's like complaining that you are broke but are unwilling to budget your finances to save money... .
crazy, I know... .
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The thing is, 20 or 40 people sticking around won't even make a blip on arena numbers because peoples' schedules are so different. When Steam went live, there were tens of thousands of people that went through the arena over the course of a few weeks. You'd think it would've been visible on the arena numbers, but it wasn't.
It seems like it takes a lot of new subs to affect arena numbers in any appreciable way.
Wiley.
Post by: Drano on February 13, 2020, 10:38:06 AM
Anyway, what I saw in IL-2 arenas, I've only flown in a couple of them, the full on BoX server and another that was dialed down some with auto enginemanagement and icons. They don't seem to get many more people flying than we do. A lot of them are split up into a ton of different servers with different settings. That BoX server seems to fill up at around 60 players with the others a dozen or so or just a few or none. The maps are smaller. There are "missions" I guess you'd call them that happen. It's axis vs allied. There are ground and air objectives. There are tanks too. Whatever happens is timed so after an hour or so the round ends, scores are posted, the map resets to a different map with different objectives. A different theater. Might be winter. Might be fall.
That was one thing I liked about it. Keeps it super fresh! There's stuff I don't like about it. The view system in VR sucks. There's no in game vox so I can't just tell that guy next to me he's about to get zapped. But they have planes we don't have and we have planes they don't. Heck I think if we could combine forces it'd be a heckuva sim!
Post by: Ciaphas on February 13, 2020, 12:36:53 PM
The thing is, 20 or 40 people sticking around won't even make a blip on arena numbers because peoples' schedules are so different. When Steam went live, there were tens of thousands of people that went through the arena over the course of a few weeks. You'd think it would've been visible on the arena numbers, but it wasn't.
It seems like it takes a lot of new subs to affect arena numbers in any appreciable way.
Wiley.
The 20 - 40 people sticking around will add 20 - 40 people to that radar and at times that 20 - 40 people is almost the entire population of the arena depending on the time of day. It is probably safe to say that the majority of the 20 - 40 people would be on during or around prime time or they would be on prime time for a different, non United States time zone. SO, either way that would be 20 - 40 people back in the meat grinder... .
Post by: save on February 13, 2020, 01:42:58 PM
Like HiTech's thoughts on when Aces High when MA/LWA arenas started having 600+ players logged in playing, the arenas start turning into a big ol' cesspool and gameplay starts having a negative impact......350 to 500 was just about optimal before the "cesspool effect" would start to rear it's ugly head.....
For todays standard, with these huge maps, it would probably push that optimal # to 800 to a 1,000, most likely......
IMO, if you only have 20 to 30 players logged in playing, as long as you can get them all to want to actually "FIGHT", everyone would have just as much fun playing as you would have if 300~500 players playing.....
That is what makes Monday Night Madness in the AvA so fun.....everyone who shows up is there to actually do Air Combat......while in the MA you have those players that avoid dogfighting at all cost, unless they are in a group of 4 to 15 on 1 side, all jumping on the single enemy plane or maybe just 2 enemy planes winging.....
Just some of my thoughts from my experience flying Aces High for the last 20+ years
Cheers
TC
Small maps will make players fight.
Post by: FESS67 on February 13, 2020, 02:28:49 PM
The 20 - 40 people sticking around will add 20 - 40 people to that radar and at times that 20 - 40 people is almost the entire population of the arena depending on the time of day. It is probably safe to say that the majority of the 20 - 40 people would be on during or around prime time or they would be on prime time for a different, non United States time zone. SO, either way that would be 20 - 40 people back in the meat grinder... .
You have to consider the fact that people are individuals and everyone has their own needs and preferences. People consider 'too few' players to be different values. Some will leave when the number drop below 100, others will stay until numbers drop below 50. That is their personal threshold.
But that is just a root cause, the impact of low numbers is the effect it has on gameplay. With large maps and small numbers gameplay suffers even at 120 players IMO. However if you put 120 players into the old DA it would be chaos. The map size and player numbers combine to make the game fun or not. That is why I talked about population density rather than raw numbers of players.
2 players can have a great game of chess, 3 is a crowd. 2 players cannot play a satisfactory game of football, you need more players to fill the field.
AH needs maps that suit player numbers.
This thread is about why people leave / have left. I am telling you why I no longer play, there is no point debating my reasons, they are what they are and it is actually irrelevant whether you agree with them or not because they are not personal to you, they are personal to me.
I now spend my money in World of Warships because I get fights all the time.
Post by: Ciaphas on February 13, 2020, 03:31:28 PM
This type of conversation has no right or wrong answer as both answers are correct for their given points.
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Post by: toasted on February 13, 2020, 04:05:11 PM
below 75 and i start having trouble finding a fight.
below 50-60 and i've given up to do other things.
players are not obligated to play just to keep the numbers up.
it would be nice if that were the case.
and even gaining back 20 that stayed on 24 hours would do very little for overall gameplay.
sure this is all fine if you just want to roll undefended airfields.
but if there is no dogfight im just not interested at all.
Post by: The Fugitive on February 13, 2020, 04:39:20 PM
regardless, leaving because of low numbers only exacerbates the the root cause.
This type of conversation has no right or wrong answer as both answers are correct for their given points.
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So your saying that people who no longer enjoy the game due to the low numbers should suck it up and keep paying their $15 a month so as to NOT exacerbates the issue?
Screw that!
Post by: fuzeman on February 13, 2020, 04:42:28 PM
Post by: Shuffler on February 13, 2020, 04:42:46 PM
So your saying that people who no longer enjoy the game due to the low numbers should suck it up and keep paying their $15 a month so as to NOT exacerbates the issue?
Screw that!
If they are not happy, they should leave. Only some seem to keep coming back on the boards and whining about being unhappy. LOL
Post by: turt21 on February 13, 2020, 04:50:41 PM
Post by: Shuffler on February 13, 2020, 04:54:40 PM
Something that would encourage me to play more would be missions. If they could offer perks for mission creators who complete the mission it would certainly give newbies a chance to learn more . Ive flown in many in the past but would have no idea how to create one. And their fun!!
Your mission... should you choose to accept. OH wait, that was Mission Impossible.... sorry I got carried away.
Yes missions are a missed creature these days. Folks kind of throw things together on the fly now.
Post by: Ciaphas on February 13, 2020, 05:44:44 PM
So your saying that people who no longer enjoy the game due to the low numbers should suck it up and keep paying their $15 a month so as to NOT exacerbates the issue?
Screw that!
Not at all it's your money, do with it as you please.
Just stating a simple fact, leaving because of low numbers only exacerbates the original problem making the core issues more problematic to solve. sorta like fighting a war in two fronts. Where do you spend the most time that will reward you with more bang for your buck.
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Post by: Max on February 13, 2020, 05:57:09 PM
So your saying that people who no longer enjoy the game due to the low numbers should suck it up and keep paying their $15 a month so as to NOT exacerbates the issue?
Screw that!
Just floating an idea here and using Fugi's post as a segue. It's pretty much a given that new content towards the game, other than from players, isn't gonna happen. Perhaps a subscription drop of 25% COUPLED WITH 3 free months to former players, who were subscribed more than 6 months would boost #'s.
Post by: Mak333 on February 13, 2020, 09:04:43 PM
It's interesting isn't it?
I mean in one hand you have those that leave because they want more players to shoot at.
And in the other hand those same players will not stick around so there will be more players... .
It's like complaining that you are broke but are unwilling to budget your finances to save money... .
crazy, I know... .
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I think I did a horrible job in making myself clear. I'm not solely after numbers, but rather the sense of community. To me, the community started to die off. I'm sure due to RL things for the most part, but overall it did. The game is still good in my opinion and I've always thought about re-upping. I wouldn't be here right now if that wasn't the case. $14.99 is a small price for a great community with awesome gameplay. I have never been about furballs or flocking to the brightest light. But when hitting strats don't matter anymore, then what's the point? Literally the numbers have gotten to a point where more times than not, the only good gameplay is small numbers in fighters in the Main Arena, or organized special ops.
Post by: Mak333 on February 13, 2020, 09:08:45 PM
Small maps will make players fight.
I've been saying this for years. I don't understand the point of running huge maps with low populated servers. Smaller maps work well with less players. It puts more focus on defending and attacking certain bases, and provides a more balanced gameplay for fighting, attacking, bombing, and ground vehicles.
Post by: FESS67 on February 14, 2020, 12:37:37 AM
If they are not happy, they should leave. Only some seem to keep coming back on the boards and whining about being unhappy. LOL
<ACME Company complaints Dept:>
Boss - "Hey man have you analysed the complaints and found out why we have lost so many customers over the last few years"
Clerk - "Nah man and I don't think all these losers crying about stuff is helping us find out, they should just go away"
:bolt:
Post by: Shuffler on February 14, 2020, 07:20:18 AM
<ACME Company complaints Dept:>
Boss - "Hey man have you analysed the complaints and found out why we have lost so many customers over the last few years"
Clerk - "Nah man and I don't think all these losers crying about stuff is helping us find out, they should just go away"
:bolt:
Most folks have no idea what they really want.
Post by: whiteman on February 14, 2020, 01:35:16 PM
Most folks have no idea what they really want.
If Hitech gave them exactly what they asked for they’ed tell him he isn’t listening. We experimented with this with a customer we had that was always squeaking, he hated what we gave him then the boss walked through everything we did based on his requests. Was very entertaining.
Post by: FESS67 on February 14, 2020, 04:08:12 PM
Post by: Shuffler on February 14, 2020, 04:10:46 PM
I am not sure if you are arrogant or just stupid but what I am sure of is there is no point talking to you. Have a nice day.
LOL you should read your post. Fess you have really soured as of late. Everything OK where you are?
Post by: FESS67 on February 14, 2020, 04:16:10 PM
LOL you should read your post. Fess you have really soured as of late. Everything OK where you are?
Everything is fine. I am just sick and tired of idiots like you telling people like me the reason we left the game is not the real reason and there must be something else at play because the game is the best thing out there and it should not change in any way at all.
I am going to play World of Warships. Enjoy.
Post by: Shuffler on February 14, 2020, 04:20:10 PM
Everything is fine. I am just sick and tired of idiots like you telling people like me the reason we left the game is not the real reason and there must be something else at play because the game is the best thing out there and it should not change in any way at all.
I am going to play World of Warships. Enjoy.
Well you are gone. Yet you keep coming back to tell us you are gone. Then you attack current players that are still here. So it makes one wonder just who is the one with problems. I am still a paying customer and flying. I am surely not trying to drive other folks away from the game.
Hope you get better soon.
Post by: hitech on February 14, 2020, 04:34:46 PM
AH Has been growing slightly in the last few months. Most probably just the normal seasonal change.
AH has a why are new people not subscribing problem.
Solve that (it's what I'm trying to do) then advertising becomes cost effect and we are again off to the races. But almost all the petty whines in this thread have no direct impact on why new people are not staying.
HiTech
Post by: FESS67 on February 14, 2020, 05:50:55 PM
The real truth is AH does not have a people leaving problem. When AH was at it's peek it normally lost at least 20 players every day.
AH Has been growing slightly in the last few months. Most probably just the normal seasonal change.
AH has a why are new people not subscribing problem.
Solve that (it's what I'm trying to do) then advertising becomes cost effect and we are again off to the races. But almost all the petty whines in this thread have no direct impact on why new people are not staying.
HiTech
You know what Hitech, they may be petty to you but they are real to your players. I am intrigued as to how you know they have no direct impact on why new people are not staying.
Let's take one of the most common petty whines and consider what impact they may have on new players.
Petty whine #1 ------------------- Fights are too few and far between due to maps being too large for the population
Impact on new player ----------- This game is boring I don't think I will stay
I am sure that would not happen of course because it is just a petty little whine and not at all based in reality.
As for other reasons why people do not stay, there are a few that you have been told about before.
- Subscription model is an outdated form of revenue raising. New players are not used to a monthly payment so you need to give them a very compelling reason to want to subscribe
- Chat system - Almost every other game uses Enter as the button into the chat function. When new players need help the most they are not even able to ask for it because to use / to enter the chat function is not intuitive for them
- Controller set up - When was the last time you installed the game on a brand new box with several controllers attached? I have done it 3 times in the last 12 months to check the game out again. Each time I have sat on the runway guns blazing because your auto setup maps things in a very odd way. IMO part of the first experience for users should be to be guided through an initial basic setup and then pointed to more complex items should they wish to explore more. The current way meant I had to go through the whole controller setup to find where the issue was. I am not new and could find my way around but it took at least 30 minutes of messing about and trying things. A new player is gone by that point.
- Open world is tough for new people - Let's say there are fights to be had. The new person is ripped apart by seasoned vets and run bunny slashers in Yak3s. They have no chance. There is no kindergarden for them to cut their teeth on. They are just thrown to the wolves. Why would they stay? Yeah yeah you will get the usual forum heroes tell you they had to go through it and the current generation blah blah blah but the fact is it is not an environment that makes them want to stay. That pushes you back to the subscription model, where is the compelling reason to stay?
I am sure there are many many other reasons however they for me are the big rocks. I think AH is probably the best game on the internet, it is certainly my personal favourite. However, my little whine is enough to make me leave, if that is bad enough to make a genuine fan leave how do you expect to keep a new guy who has not yet been hooked?
Respectfully
Post by: timeisnotlinear on February 14, 2020, 09:10:48 PM
Post by: molybdenum on February 14, 2020, 09:47:42 PM
Something that would encourage me to play more would be missions. If they could offer perks for mission creators who complete the mission it would certainly give newbies a chance to learn more . Ive flown in many in the past but would have no idea how to create one. And their fun!!
Best idea I've heard for quite a while. And I'm a lone wolf kinda guy. <S>
Post by: The Fugitive on February 15, 2020, 09:04:11 AM
The real truth is AH does not have a people leaving problem. When AH was at it's peek it normally lost at least 20 players every day.
AH Has been growing slightly in the last few months. Most probably just the normal seasonal change.
AH has a why are new people not subscribing problem.
Solve that (it's what I'm trying to do) then advertising becomes cost effect and we are again off to the races. But almost all the petty whines in this thread have no direct impact on why new people are not staying.
HiTech
What are you looking at to that end? Is there anything the player base could do to help towards that end?
We may be here whining on the boards but for most of us it is because we care and want this game to continue.
Post by: BuckShot on February 15, 2020, 10:19:21 AM
Post by: The Fugitive on February 15, 2020, 12:09:21 PM
Stupid changes like the new x killed x spam messages don't help retention of veteran players.
This veteran player is looking forward to seeing it. This is how it was years ago.
Post by: whiteman on February 15, 2020, 12:37:41 PM
Post by: toasted on February 15, 2020, 01:03:59 PM
https://i.ibb.co/KV68mNc/ah2window.jpg
it works very well as a second window, however there really does need to be a way to seperate it out from the traditional system messages. so only the kill messages go in their own window
ideally id like to see it separated out to its own option, and maybe we can look at how we are displaying info.
a scrolling marque at the top/bottom of the traditional message window would be very nice.
or if we could handle it a bit like call of duty, overlay killername an icon and killedname, 4 icons maybe fighter,bomber,gv,other. display these a bit like the damage display.
Post by: CAV on February 15, 2020, 07:19:11 PM
Quote
This veteran player is looking forward to seeing it. This is how it was years ago.
This veteran play saw it years ago, did not like it then........... still hates it now.
Post by: Shuffler on February 15, 2020, 07:32:49 PM
Stupid changes like the new x killed x spam messages don't help retention of veteran players.
Veteran players know it is not new.
Post by: Banshee7 on February 16, 2020, 03:43:12 PM
The real truth is AH does not have a people leaving problem. When AH was at it's peek it normally lost at least 20 players every day.
AH Has been growing slightly in the last few months. Most probably just the normal seasonal change.
AH has a why are new people not subscribing problem.
Solve that (it's what I'm trying to do) then advertising becomes cost effect and we are again off to the races. But almost all the petty whines in this thread have no direct impact on why new people are not staying.
HiTech
Sooooo, I’m sure this has been said before, but this is just me brainstorming.
Do any of y’all think the expanse of console games + how easy those games are for people to succeed = anything to do with low new subscriber retention?
I’m just thinking of how today’s generation of gamers (and I use that term lightly) mostly enjoy the “everyone gets a trophy” mentality and the small learning curves of most of the games I’ve seen. I mean, for Christ’s sake, look at how cheesy Fortnite is, and it’s popular (and free).
I don’t think there’s an easy solution if that might be the case. I like the learning curve AH had. I like the freedom to create your own fun. And, as a possible returning player (if I can ever get internet and another rig :bhead), I wouldn’t want this game that was a major part of my teen years to become cheesy.
Idk. I’m just rambling, and probably way off, but that’s my question.
Post by: The Fugitive on February 16, 2020, 04:19:36 PM
Post by: Lazerr on February 16, 2020, 04:31:57 PM
I expect this problem for AH to get worse as time goes on, platforms will evolve futher, games too. The gap between here and there will get larger.
I really dont know what I would do if I was HTC in this spot. Probably just ride the wave.
Post by: Ciaphas on February 16, 2020, 04:47:38 PM
I think the fact that xbox/ps4 platforms are starting to match the abilities of PC graphics (exceeding AH), has a lot to do with it. There is a good load of counsel games that are fun, and look good. This plus the subscription plan would be my guess.
I expect this problem for AH to get worse as time goes on, platforms will evolve futher, games too. The gap between here and there will get larger.
I really dont know what I would do if I was HTC in this spot. Probably just ride the wave.
Not really, consoles have a terrible sub plan. you buy the game (50-70 bucks), then you have to pay a subscription fee (up to 59 bucks a year) to access online content and let's not forget the different versions of the games you can buy, which can run you up over 100 bucks for the game and micro transactions add even more cost to the game (optional yes, but you know you want it). You are now sitting at about the same price that annual sub would cost here if one were offered. The graphics don't mean a lot of anything if the game play sucks. Console players tend to be trend hoppers when it comes to games. There are those that will play a title until the servers are shut down but by and large the average player will game hop several times within a year if not a few months.
Post by: Banshee7 on February 16, 2020, 04:52:27 PM
Not really, consoles have a terrible sub plan. you buy the game (50-70 bucks), then you have to pay a subscription fee (up to 59 bucks a year) to access online content and let's not forget the different versions of the games you can buy, which can run you up over 100 bucks for the game and micro transactions add even more cost to the game (optional yes, but you know you want it). You are now sitting at about the same price that annual sub would cost here if one were offered. The graphics don't mean a lot of anything if the game play sucks. Console players tend to be trend hoppers when it comes to games. There are those that will play a title until the servers are shut down but by and large the average player will game hop several times within a year if not a few months.
Let’s not forget that each game has a new edition almost every year, so rinse and repeat EVERY year. Call of Duty for instance.
Post by: toasted on February 16, 2020, 05:01:54 PM
I think the problem is as hitech stated getting people to stay after trying it more than anything.
To that end, pushing the vr aspect of the game would be something i would think about. This is actually one of the better vr experiences out there.
Also some way to get new players up to speed, both in terms of game mechanics, control setups, and radio usage may help.
and maybe some slight visual upgrades.
a rework of the graphics system is too much at the moment. but maybe some polishing of how the players see data could help,the visual interface feels old.(and the radio system is kind of akward from time to time)
but even things like some plane info right in the hanger, some stats ,and maybe a little history (also it would be cool to move around the plane in vr in the hanger and we already have the pilot mechanic) it needs to feel a bit more modern.
the perk system also need a rework, its another of those things that feels unfinished. player engagement is important i think.
there are others, and this is just my opinion.
Post by: Lazerr on February 16, 2020, 05:02:30 PM
Call of duty type games, mentioned above.
They use these platforms to stream TV, movies, etc.
If they decide to get into PC gaming to play Aces High, and they log into the game as it sits for 15 bucks a month, folks rather supply than fight, maps too large for the population, and three countries watering down the action... they will be on steam within a month trying to find a game making their gaming computer worth it.
I love the game, but the countless hours ive spent here, i can see whats wrong.
Post by: CptTrips on February 17, 2020, 11:33:30 AM
What I think should be our lowest hanging fruit are IL2 players. The really interesting question to consider is why have we not captured even a nominal percentage of IL2 players.
Millions and millions of copies of the IL2 franchise have been sold. If we even captured a sliver of that, we should have 10's of thousands of players.
Those are high-fidelity WWII combat aviation enthusiasts. If we can't figure out why we haven't lured over a good percentage of them, I doubt we'd have much luck in converting GTA console players.
$0.02.
Post by: Wiley on February 17, 2020, 11:47:37 AM
I don't know if console players would be a great target market for us. I don't know if the AH style gameplay is a great fit for console.
What I think should be our lowest hanging fruit are IL2 players. The really interesting question to consider is why have we not captured even a nominal percentage of IL2 players.
Millions and millions of copies of the IL2 franchise have been sold. If we even captured a sliver of that, we should have 10's of thousands of players.
Those are high-fidelity WWII combat aviation enthusiasts. If we can't figure out why we haven't lured over a good percentage of them, I doubt we'd have much luck in converting GTA console players.
$0.02.
Engine management and no icons are two of the things that seem to make it "better" to most people I see talking about it.
Wiley.
Post by: CptTrips on February 17, 2020, 12:32:35 PM
Engine management and no icons are two of the things that seem to make it "better" to most people I see talking about it.
Do you think those are the core factors making the difference between their millions of copies sold and our current numbers?
Post by: Shuffler on February 17, 2020, 12:33:44 PM
Do you think those are the core factors making the difference between their millions of copies sold and our current numbers?
I keep hearing that everthing is free... Freee. FREEEEEEE :x
Post by: CptTrips on February 17, 2020, 12:37:24 PM
I keep hearing that everthing is free... Freee. FREEEEEEE :x
Were the millions and millions of copies of IL2 given away free?
Post by: Wiley on February 17, 2020, 01:00:29 PM
Do you think those are the core factors making the difference between their millions of copies sold and our current numbers?
That, one time buy (ish) and the fact that the main thrust isn't online pvp. Millions of copies sold. What, a rew hundred online PvP at any given time? The online ain't why they're there.
Wiley.
Post by: CptTrips on February 17, 2020, 01:20:17 PM
That, one time buy (ish) and the fact that the main thrust isn't online pvp. Millions of copies sold. What, a rew hundred online PvP at any given time? The online ain't why they're there.
But would you agree they are probably the closest possible match to our ideal target market?
Other than returning veterans, can you think of a closer fit?
I’m not counting WB, there are only about 20 guys left there. I’m not counting WWII online, most of those guys are ground pounders.
We probably got all the AW and FA refugees we are ever going to get.
As far as new growth goes, I can’t see any significant population that would be as close to fit. Certainly it should be easier to convert them then general gamers from Call of Duty, etc.
Post by: DmonSlyr on February 17, 2020, 01:57:10 PM
Engine management and no icons are two of the things that seem to make it "better" to most people I see talking about it.
Wiley.
Probably one aspect to it. I also believe the MA is too hard and too time consuming for them since they have to create their own advantage by taking off and getting alt before the enemy team gains the advantage. Just my opinion.
I tried it one night and only saw about 25 people in a room, so it wasnt really "all that" compared to what I had perceived.
Post by: toasted on February 17, 2020, 02:18:59 PM
As far as new growth goes, I can’t see any significant population that would be as close to fit.
not as close to a fit, and probably not practical.
but i bet if it was possible to port a version to the occulus quest, that alone would bring in some new blood.
the slightly older graphics then are not an issue, there are a ton of them in the wild, there are no real adult simulation games. the vr flight sim mechanic would work very well for them.
and it is possible to hook a hotas directly to the quest. so id buy one to go with my rift and i could play anywhere which would be awesome.
would be great if there was some type of single player campaign also.
i think flight sims and vr are a great match and aces high does this well.
the vr marketplace is finally getting some traction. steam reported 1.31 percent of all steam users having a connected vr headset. (almost double the year before)
this doesnt seem like a lot, but works out to something like 1.6 million people. and this is only steam, it doesnt count non steam occulus or other platform users.
even ignoring the quest, just pushing the vr aspect of the game, things like interactable cockpit handles and stuff would be a huge selling point. the headset part of vr and basic hand integration is a great start.very few do it as well as AH does, and i think there is a market there.
and i think people are willing to forgive a little bit of the learning curve if using vr.
but im just spitballing.
Post by: CptTrips on February 17, 2020, 02:22:09 PM
Probably one aspect to it. I also believe the MA is too hard and too time consuming for them since they have to create their own advantage by taking off and getting alt before the enemy team gains the advantage. Just my opinion.
I tried it one night and only saw about 25 people in a room, so it wasnt really "all that" compared to what I had perceived.
As opposed to our pilots who make a pass and then run to the ack? ;)
My point isn't to claim IL2 is better. The question I am asking is there another significant gaming demographic that is a closer fit? Is there another population of gamers we should have an easier time converting? If we can't convert them, are our odds better with Fortnite players?
What are we missing that is failing to seduce IL2 players from coming on over. I think that is probably our best target market.
Post by: Lazerr on February 17, 2020, 02:28:33 PM
are their numbers any better than ours? I havent played il2, but my understanding is they dont need 200+ players to get the outcome this thread is based on
Do you think those are the core factors making the difference between their millions of copies sold and our current numbers?
Post by: Drano on February 17, 2020, 03:16:49 PM
I get the biggest kick out of 10000 people watching some kid play donkey Kong on Twitch. And the kid is making more money than all of us. Ain't right!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Post by: CptTrips on February 17, 2020, 03:20:03 PM
are their numbers any better than ours? I havent played il2, but my understanding is they dont need 200+ players to get the outcome this thread is based on
I'm not getting my point across somehow.
I'm not saying they are a better online experience than AH. However millions of people have shown enough interest in high-fidelity WWII combat aviation to give 1C Games $50-60 a pop version after version after version.
Of all the significant possible gamer demographics out there, those gamers should probably be the lowest hanging fruit for us to entice. If only a small sliver of those IL2 gamers decided to subscribe to AH, HTC would be rolling in dough and could fund a full development team and greatly accelerate production.
Somehow we are not making that sell. I suspect efforts to figure that out would pay higher dividends that trying to figure out how to convince Grand Theft Auto console players.
Post by: puller on February 17, 2020, 03:34:44 PM
are their numbers any better than ours? I havent played il2, but my understanding is they dont need 200+ players to get the outcome this thread is based on
No....IL2's numbers aren't better than AH
You've basically got 2 servers that are populated more than 10...Combat Box which has no plane icon on map so you have to navigate by landmarks...Or you have Wings of Liberty, which has the plane icon that will show you where you are at and where you are going...
As a recent IL2 convert...I can tell you that the difference is quite substantial...IL2 and AH3 look about the same to me with EVERYTHING turned on...and i mean everything...with the edge going to IL2...the explosion effects and planes going down are alot better than AH...there are no icons...which to me sucks..but it makes me look forward to trying to learn how to play without icons...i played AH the other night with icons off and it sucked just like IL2...so
Anyway...these people saying that they wont play without 700 people on are nuts...just plain nuts...its a dumb thing to say...dumb
you are not going to fight any more than 1 or 2 at a time without crying that you are getting ganged....why in the holy hell would you want 700 people on....do you want to rage quit when the mega horde of 30 or 35 planes leaving a base find you alone in your spitfire or pony???? I didnt think so...
IL2 has equal or lesser numbers than AH on a typical night...last night i was playing both and AH had more players than IL2 all night...till midnight CDT when I rage quit IL2 for the night :neener:
Post by: toasted on February 17, 2020, 03:41:51 PM
i think why they want more people is for more and varied action.
and because off peak when there are only 50 or so total players on there is no action.
the 700 people are not expecting to fight at the same base.
the maps are big, when you spread 700 people over them it leads to great action everywhere, and lots of choices.
when you have 50 over the same number of bases it becomes the exact same fight over and over again , if you can even find a fight to begin with.
i for one do not want to fight the same 25 people over and over.
but obviously while some of us would think it great fun, we are not advocating the 700 person furball.
Post by: Drano on February 17, 2020, 04:03:23 PM
@toasted What was cool about the larger numbers is it made for more variance of game play. There would usually be at least one very large fight and that was fine for people that liked that, but there were always many more smaller fights along all the fronts. Now with so few on at least when I'm on I'm lucky to find any fight at all let alone multiples. Sad really.
Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
Post by: toasted on February 17, 2020, 04:26:25 PM
@toasted What was cool about the larger numbers is it made for more variance of game play. There would usually be at least one very large fight and that was fine for people that liked that, but there were always many more smaller fights along all the fronts. Now with so few on at least when I'm on I'm lucky to find any fight at all let alone multiples. Sad really.
exactly. one of the main draws aces high has to me over other games is the large amount of varied action. when you lose that there is no reason to choose it over any other sim on the market.
during peak hours where there is 150 people battling it out, it is mostly good fights all around. and if you get tired of one there are others.
off peak is a bit different. there are times i would like to play , but dont because i get frustrated at the lack of action.
just an observation.
doesnt help getting new players.
though i think there might be more luck in gaining totally new players vs hijacking the il-2 crowd. unless you can offer something compelling most of them will be stuck in there ways already and unwilling to change,.
Post by: The Fugitive on February 17, 2020, 04:29:29 PM
obviously you can only fight a couple at a time.
i think why they want more people is for more and varied action.
and because off peak when there are only 50 or so total players on there is no action.
the 700 people are not expecting to fight at the same base.
the maps are big, when you spread 700 people over them it leads to great action everywhere, and lots of choices.
when you have 50 over the same number of bases it becomes the exact same fight over and over again , if you can even find a fight to begin with.
i for one do not want to fight the same 25 people over and over.
but obviously while some of us would think it great fun, we are not advocating the 700 person furball.
EXACTLY! More variety of play. With the larger number you could have a CV battle going, a base take, a GV spawn camp, and two defensive fights all at the same time! That is what the numbers did for you and why so many people complain about the low numbers where we get to fight nobody and watch the other two teams fight it out on the other side of the map.
There has always been a certain density on the map when the game seems to get going and the action is good. We rarely get to that density any more these days.
Post by: CptTrips on February 17, 2020, 04:36:40 PM
though i think there might be more luck in gaining totally new players vs hijacking the il-2 crowd. unless you can offer something compelling most of them will be stuck in there ways already and unwilling to change,.
There is a lot of that going around. ;)
Post by: Wiley on February 17, 2020, 05:48:43 PM
As opposed to our pilots who make a pass and then run to the ack? ;)
My point isn't to claim IL2 is better. The question I am asking is there another significant gaming demographic that is a closer fit? Is there another population of gamers we should have an easier time converting? If we can't convert them, are our odds better with Fortnite players?
What are we missing that is failing to seduce IL2 players from coming on over. I think that is probably our best target market.
Why would they want to switch? For one thing graphics. For another subscription. To bring them over if say we'd need something significantly better than what they've got. All we have is an open arena and that can be seen either as a bonus or detriment. Also there just aren't that many people that play it online as a percentage.
Wiley.
Post by: Rich46yo on February 19, 2020, 09:44:48 PM
I never understood the crash of players after an upgrade I thought was very good. It took a bit more computer power but not that much more and the graphics quality was worth the little extra steam needed.
Paying players have a right to ride what they want but I think all the emphasis on GV'ing, the new vehicles, while cool kind of crashed the flight game. To much GV'ing, on maps to big, so separate from the flight game, and all that camping, was part of what caused an exodus. It was just stale. Nothing was worse then logging on at prime time and seeing a huge map with only a few minor air skirmishes. Everyone was in GVs.
CVs should have been protected for 15 mins to 1/2 hour after action started with them. Maybe a color change or something when the 1/2 hour was up and they were now fair game. Its gameish but it would have provided more of the old time furballs.
Maps? The maps were to big for the numbers. How often had it needed saying? It got to the point where players were hoping Uterus would come up. Some of the smaller maps I'd just never see.
There was a terrific training map. Why would you remove that? The training corps was the best in the business at one time. I still remember Ghost sitting in his Jap fighter all night helping the noobs. The bomber war kind of disintegrated. We were an older bunch and even if they didn't all die when you get old I can tell you from personal experience you lose interest in gaming.
During the free fall most of the Euro players left. Nothing was happening during their game times and a lot of them were very good. Losing the bomber hunters didn't help the bomber war.
Actually checking the K/D stats it looks better then i thought it would. The game is holding close to 200,000 in melee a month. The K/Ds seem to be drifting back to the air game, at least it seems to me.
I was lucky to be in both this game and WWllOL at their heights. Both are good memories.
Anyway good luck and good luck with the game. I still see a lot of names of players who are very skilled left.
Post by: Shuffler on February 20, 2020, 01:59:48 AM
Well speaking as someone who hasn't played in years and never really comes here but maybe twice a year.
I never understood the crash of players after an upgrade I thought was very good. It took a bit more computer power but not that much more and the graphics quality was worth the little extra steam needed.
Paying players have a right to ride what they want but I think all the emphasis on GV'ing, the new vehicles, while cool kind of crashed the flight game. To much GV'ing, on maps to big, so separate from the flight game, and all that camping, was part of what caused an exodus. It was just stale. Nothing was worse then logging on at prime time and seeing a huge map with only a few minor air skirmishes. Everyone was in GVs.
CVs should have been protected for 15 mins to 1/2 hour after action started with them. Maybe a color change or something when the 1/2 hour was up and they were now fair game. Its gameish but it would have provided more of the old time furballs.
Maps? The maps were to big for the numbers. How often had it needed saying? It got to the point where players were hoping Uterus would come up. Some of the smaller maps I'd just never see.
There was a terrific training map. Why would you remove that? The training corps was the best in the business at one time. I still remember Ghost sitting in his Jap fighter all night helping the noobs. The bomber war kind of disintegrated. We were an older bunch and even if they didn't all die when you get old I can tell you from personal experience you lose interest in gaming.
During the free fall most of the Euro players left. Nothing was happening during their game times and a lot of them were very good. Losing the bomber hunters didn't help the bomber war.
Actually checking the K/D stats it looks better then i thought it would. The game is holding close to 200,000 in melee a month. The K/Ds seem to be drifting back to the air game, at least it seems to me.
I was lucky to be in both this game and WWllOL at their heights. Both are good memories.
Anyway good luck and good luck with the game. I still see a lot of names of players who are very skilled left.
Good to see you.... stop by again on your next loop around the world. :D
Post by: hitech on February 20, 2020, 10:12:24 AM
I never understood the crash of players after an upgrade I thought was very good. It took a bit more computer power but not that much more and the graphics quality was worth the little extra steam needed.
There NEVER has been a player crash do to the upgrade or any other event.
HiTech
Post by: Rich46yo on February 20, 2020, 02:45:35 PM
And I seem to remember a lot of players saying they couldn't play the way they wanted to and were going to quit because of a more graphics intensive release, which wasn't that more intensive. They just had very old computers. Remember? The upgrade I gushed over?
Crash or dribble? Whats it matter? The game seems to be holding its own so its all good.
Hitech did you ever think it was you that drove a lot of people away with how you run the game? I don't know you so don't take it personal but I think you have made some poor decisions. My memories of the actual players are that they were/are very good people and quite skilled.
I hope the game grows and prospers. The players deserve it so none of this is sour grapes. From the beginning Ive said the software is the best written flight software out there and I was a big fan of the graphics upgrades.
Post by: Spikes on February 20, 2020, 02:49:13 PM
Post by: hitech on February 20, 2020, 03:02:49 PM
And I seem to remember a lot of players saying they couldn't play the way they wanted to and were going to quit because of a more graphics intensive release, which wasn't that more intensive. They just had very old computers. Remember? The upgrade I gushed over?People stating that they are going to quit and people quitting are not the same thing.
Quote
Crash or dribble? Whats it matter? The game seems to be holding its own so its all good.
A hell of a lot.
Quote
Hitech did you ever think it was you that drove a lot of people away with how you run the game? I don't know you so don't take it personal but I think you have made some poor decisions. My memories of the actual players are that they were/are very good people and quite skilled.How can I not take a line like this personal. You do realize that this game would not exist if it was not for the way I run it?
Quote
The players deserve it so none of this is sour grapes.
I don't believe you.
HiTech
Post by: FESS67 on February 21, 2020, 03:29:02 AM
How can I not take a line like this personal. You do realize that this game would not exist if it was not for the way I run it?
HiTech
HiTech, this is in no way personal and in all faith I mean that.
I could easily reverse your statement, some would say fix your statement.
You do realize that this game would be much better if it was not for the way I run it?
You are 1 man. You cannot possibly know everything about everything. You will and you do make mistakes, we all do. You have the best WW2 fighter combat game in the market. Your adoption of VR is way ahead of anyone else. But you are missing the mark. People are coming and not staying, why is that? I know you are searching for the answer. We have tried telling you why but you are HiTech and for some reason you know best and when we challenge you it is an issue. That is not being personal sir, that is what we see and think. Let me give you 1 small example.
Your default FOV. I have NEVER met anyone in game that uses it. It is pretty much unplayable other than in a pure 1 on 1 and even then it is not as good as something like 103 or 105. You want to know why new guys do not stay. Have a look at what your player base is telling you. To a man they are telling you that 90 is not good. Why not change the default to 100?
Yeah, I know you are going to throw x,y,x reasons at me but sir, respectfully, you are providing a game and when ALL the players in the game adjust FOV as soon as they know about it. If EVERY player changes it, maybe, just maybe it needs to be changed globally or would you prefer your new players to struggle and leave before they understand it can be changed?
Post by: RAG on February 21, 2020, 05:13:55 AM
Always puzzled me why the default was was like an old granny in her Nissan Micra with her nose squashed on the windscreen.
Post by: BTPommyB on February 21, 2020, 08:10:22 AM
Post by: CptTrips on February 21, 2020, 09:09:29 AM
(https://cdn3.movieweb.com/i/article/HxlDDLDJdFAaWZaFgBuZZmHbB1ouWd/798:75/Office-Space-Buy-Milton-Red-Stapler-Swingline.jpg)
Post by: hitech on February 21, 2020, 09:17:40 AM
You do realize that this game would be much better if it was not for the way I run it?
You can't reverse it,unless you think nothing is better then what AH is now, because the game would not exist if I did not sit down one day at a blank computer screen and start creating it.
You are 1 man. You cannot possibly know everything about everything.Wow such a profound statement. The only response that comes to mind is well duhhhh.
You will and you do make mistakes, we all do.
I have created an entire new game last year wanting to try out some ideas, and even for free it failed miserably.
But you are missing the mark. People are coming and not staying, why is that? I know you are searching for the answer. We have tried telling you why but you are HiTech and for some reason you know best and when we challenge you it is an issue. That is not being personal sir, that is what we see and think. Let me give you 1 small example.
I listen to all the suggestions, whines. squeakes, good ideas, and selfish requests, but only I can make the choices if anything any player post is good or bad, will be or won't be implemented or changed. What I just stated is not arrogance it is simply the way the world works. Some one needs to make the choices, and I'm the one responsible to do so. But players like you will always like some things and not like others. They will only squeak about the few things they don't like and not realize the 1000's of things they do like all were choices made by the same guy.
Quote
Your default FOV. I have NEVER met anyone in game that uses it. It is pretty much unplayable other than in a pure 1 on 1 and even then it is not as good as something like 103 or 105. You want to know why new guys do not stay. Have a look at what your player base is telling you. To a man they are telling you that 90 is not good. Why not change the default to 100?
Yeah, I know you are going to throw x,y,x reasons at me but sir, respectfully, you are providing a game and when ALL the players in the game adjust FOV as soon as they know about it. If EVERY player changes it, maybe, just maybe it needs to be changed globally or would you prefer your new players to struggle and leave before they understand it can be changed
So why do you believe your reasons are better then my x,y,x when it appears you just wish to shrug my reasons off before even knowing what they are?
And why did I make it much simpler to change the FOV then in a previous version where no you can now change it while in flight? Did you now you can now change FOV in 2 different places?
Many times I feel that players like yourself who no longer have the fun and excitement playing AH that they once did. That they really want that fun and excitement back.
They then blame me for their loss.
I know the feeling of loss of love of a game. There have been games that I played intensely for a year or more, suddenly 1 things changes and I blame it for not having fun so I quit. But in reality I had just had enough of the game and nothing new to explore. Even though I tried later I could not rekindle the excitement I originally felt about the games. It was not the games fault because if you look at it threw a new persons eyes it was just the same as when I had started playing them.
HiTech
Post by: hitech on February 21, 2020, 09:18:27 AM
You know, Hitech, if you just went ahead and got that office job with a red-stapler, you'd only have one boss instead of 200. ;)
(https://cdn3.movieweb.com/i/article/HxlDDLDJdFAaWZaFgBuZZmHbB1ouWd/798:75/Office-Space-Buy-Milton-Red-Stapler-Swingline.jpg)
But it's my stapler.
HiTech
Post by: Drano on February 21, 2020, 09:20:53 AM
Just get a VR headset.All headsets are not created equal insofar as actual FOV. For example the newer Pimax has between 120 and 170+ FOV available depending on the settings where my RiftS has only 90. But I agree it's totally different viewing the virtual world in VR vs a monitor. No comparison.
Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
Post by: Arlo on February 21, 2020, 10:02:56 AM
Well, except for the Spanish Civil War not working. :old:
Post by: Shuffler on February 21, 2020, 10:39:45 AM
Meh. Game's fine.
Well, except for the Spanish Civil War not working. :old:
:rofl
Post by: FESS67 on February 21, 2020, 05:51:21 PM
I do not think my reasons are better than your x,y,z. I am telling you that when no player uses the default then maybe it is time to change the default. Yes, I know you implemented the ability to change FOV on the fly, that was a very good change as before it was hidden away in the start up screen. I also accept that people will change it to what they want at some stage and their preferences will be different. However, from talking to others through the years they are usually in the range of 100 to 106 for the majority of players. Changing the default to be in that range will do nothing for the existing players, they know how to adjust the setting. It will however, IMO, help your new players.
So why do you believe your reasons are better then my x,y,x when it appears you just wish to shrug my reasons off before even knowing what they are?
And why did I make it much simpler to change the FOV then in a previous version where no you can now change it while in flight? Did you now you can now change FOV in 2 different places?
Many times I feel that players like yourself who no longer have the fun and excitement playing AH that they once did. That they really want that fun and excitement back.
They then blame me for their loss.
I don't blame you. I just don't agree with some of your choices. Some of those choices impacted the fun that I have in game and when it reached a tipping point I left. I still have passion for the game just not for the way it is played now. I accept that is driven by the players however as the creator you can, in turn, drive player behaviour through the implementation of game features. You can compress the fight into smaller areas through map creation, you can level the field through access or denial to planes, you can create choke points......you can do pretty much anything to influence gameplay.
You prefer the open sandbox and I respect that however such a large open sandbox with a population that cannot fill it creates a different mentality and gameplay than a sandbox crammed with players.
For me the game was always about WW2 fighter combat. The current iteration of the game coupled with player preferences for hit and run tactics are what makes it not fun for me. The issues have been talked about ad infinitum and I do not see anything changing but I will keep poking my head in to check.
Post by: DmonSlyr on February 21, 2020, 09:19:26 PM
If you look at the updates posted on the AH front page. They look non exciting and many people don't have a single clue what those really did. Hitech often hides the best part of the game updates (new map announcements and Skins) from the main page. Doesn't change or update the main page and is very boring. Special events are hidden from marketing and the main page...
One thing I really liked that HItech did was restructure the bases to make the FHs harder to kill. This was a great decision.
IMO, there just isn't enough maps and many are really old and big. The maps haven't geared toward today's players where flying 5- 7 minutes to action is worth it. The Smaller maps that have been implemented have really kept the fights going longer and keep more people in the game later at night. Maps that stay up for 4-5 days need to go. It's very stale. There needs to be so many more that get flipped faster. 2 days or its over.
You do have to be patient in AH. The farther the bases the more it makes it not worth it to roll if the fight loses steam. Big fight killer. People will log off if they have to fly too far for a couple of guys late at night.
The perception of the MA hasn't greatly improved. New planes have dominated the arena. The the top 5 planes on the kills list are a huge reason for the "run n gang" type of flying you see today. Those planes should all have small perks like the tanks do. Fighting 6 yak3s every sortie gets old.
The match play is dead. The DA was killed. No one wants to learn how to 1v1 or actually be skilled. BnZ is the new "cool" way to fly (noobs). No one wants to die because it takes 5-7 minutes to get to some action. They all fly noob planes and gang because that's what it takes to get to the fight quickly and escape the fight quickly. They don't know how to fight so they hit X. They don't know how to get kills so they pick easy cheapie and double and quadruple any plane no matter if their friendly already has the advantage. Look at the top5 fighter kills and you will see the reason for such poor fights in AH that are different than people remember.
Post by: atlau on February 23, 2020, 09:48:33 AM
And AFAIK FOV does not affect VR? Has anyone tried AH with these Pimax goggles?
Post by: FLS on February 23, 2020, 10:52:12 AM
The default settings in AH3 are for a single monitor, likely 20-24". VR is like sitting close to a very big monitor so the natural FOV can currently be around 110.
The natural FOV gives you normal perspective. You can figure out the natural FOV from the width of your monitor and the distance you sit from it.
With VR the FOV is set to the natural FOV based on the screen size and distance from your eyes, this gives the proper normal perspective which may be why people find shooting becomes easier.
Adjusting VR to a wider unnatural perspective seems like a bad idea. The screen size and position determines the FOV that gives you normal perspective. Anything else is distorted. You would want to adjust FOV to correct distortion, for people who aren't standard sizes, not cause distortion.
Post by: Lazerr on February 23, 2020, 11:01:39 AM
I recommend 106 to anyone I help with video settings.
Post by: atlau on February 23, 2020, 11:40:02 AM
I assumed the FoV in VR is set to be 1:1 with the real world
Post by: bustr on February 24, 2020, 01:26:37 PM
Post by: Wiley on February 24, 2020, 01:43:27 PM
Wiley.
Post by: DmonSlyr on February 24, 2020, 03:19:01 PM
A once a week 5x5 terrain in the MA might be a good thing Hitech. Probably need 3 becasue of how fast a single one can be won during 24 hours. The only real problem, in the worst case scenario, everyone will be at 30k on the edges hoping everyone else will fly lower and let themselves be picked. Best case scenario, no one will get above 12k and furballs will screw the pooch for bombers.
If there was anyway these maps could be implemented during the off hours and then switch back to the main maps. That would be pretty cool.
For example the current map times out at 3am Est for a 5x5 map, then comes back on at 9am est. This gives 6 hours on a small map for the off hours times with the lowest #s.
Post by: hitech on February 24, 2020, 03:39:50 PM
If there was anyway these maps could be implemented during the off hours and then switch back to the main maps. That would be pretty cool.
For example the current map times out at 3am Est for a 5x5 map, then comes back on at 9am est. This gives 6 hours on a small map for the off hours times with the lowest #s.
You may wish to think what would happen during the daily switch.
HiTech
Post by: Mongoose on February 24, 2020, 09:15:26 PM
But it's my stapler.
HiTech
Let the man keep his stapler. He has done some wonderful things with that stapler.
Post by: Arlo on February 24, 2020, 09:35:18 PM
Let the man keep his stapler. He has done some wonderful things with that stapler.
It's a pretty awesome stapler.
(https://i.imgur.com/cQSXDxZ.png)
"Look, up in the sky!"
"It's a bird!"
"It's a plane!"
"It's a stapler!"
Post by: GrandpaChaps on February 24, 2020, 10:14:20 PM
Drive through the tree to see where the ball goes.
Post by: GrandpaChaps on February 24, 2020, 10:17:31 PM
The answer isn't always the source.
Drive through the tree to see where the ball goes.
Seek the Lynx :aok
And follow those looking for the plumb, square and compass who travel to the east. :old:
Post by: hitech on February 25, 2020, 09:11:07 AM
Seek the Lynx :aok
And follow those looking for the plumb, square and compass who travel to the east. :old:
I always thought something was fundamentally wrong with the universe.
HiTech
Post by: Shuffler on February 25, 2020, 10:57:18 AM
Seek the Lynx :aok
And follow those looking for the plumb, square and compass who travel to the east. :old:
Lodge