Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Busher on January 14, 2021, 05:15:29 PM
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During this time of torment, we as pilots, both virtual and real, might want to pause to remember that 12 years ago tomorrow, Captain Chesley Sullenberger and First Officer Jeff Skiles demonstrated exceptional cool and skill to save 155 lives.
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:salute
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:salute
Eagler
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Overrated. To quote a fellow Captain friend, “Of course they landed in the river. Where else were they gonna go?”
I did this exact thing in the simulator years before they did it.
Skiles I have no beef with. Sullnenberger just likes to hear himself talk.
/Rant
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I did this exact thing in the simulator years before they did it.
Right...
Nobody talks about brave men in their proud simulators.
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Right...
Nobody talks about brave men in their proud simulators.
How do you think we learn to do the right thing when the situation goes Tango Uniform?
I flew jets with an ex-freight dog early in my career who impressed upon me the importance of always looking for a place to go if both engines quit. Why did he do that? Because it happened to him decades before Sully and Skiles.
People can be lulled into complacency with the reliability of modern airplanes, particularly jets. I learned a very important lesson from him that day and I’ve passed it along to every F/O I’ve flown with.
As for this particular crew... Any ATP worth his salt could do what they did. If not then they have no business in that cockpit.
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Overrated. To quote a fellow Captain friend, “Of course they landed in the river. Where else were they gonna go?”
I did this exact thing in the simulator years before they did it.
Skiles I have no beef with. Sullnenberger just likes to hear himself talk.
/Rant
you did it in a simulation, what's the worst thing that could have happened to you, fellow pilots make fun of you at the bar?
he did it in real life, he could have died or get some passengers killed.
I just simplified it but you risked nothing and yes it did prepares you for real life. no need to diminish what he did.
semp
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Overrated. To quote a fellow Captain friend, “Of course they landed in the river. Where else were they gonna go?”
I did this exact thing in the simulator years before they did it.
Skiles I have no beef with. Sullnenberger just likes to hear himself talk.
/Rant
lol
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you did it in a simulation, what's the worst thing that could have happened to you, fellow pilots make fun of you at the bar?
he did it in real life, he could have died or get some passengers killed.
I just simplified it but you risked nothing and yes it did prepares you for real life. no need to diminish what he did.
semp
Simulators can do things you’ll never see in real life until it happens the first time. By then it may be too late. And frankly, simulators can be much harder to fly than the real thing.
Risked nothing? I risk my career every time I step foot in a simulator. And I risk my life every single time I say, “Check Thrust.”
What he did is what any well-trained pilot would do, but in our society of uninformed reality tv zombies he became the Second Coming. Rather than be humble, he got the big ego stroke and proceeded to wear out his 15 minutes in about six flat. It’s slightly pathetic.
Bravo. Good job. Move along. He believed his own press and became a spectacle—and not for the good.
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no need to diminish what he did.
semp
Spot on Semp. . . . . . .
I Salute Sully and Skiles :salute
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Simulators can do things you’ll never see in real life until it happens the first time. By then it may be too late. And frankly, simulators can be much harder to fly than the real thing.
Risked nothing? I risk my career every time I step foot in a simulator. And I risk my life every single time I say, “Check Thrust.”
What he did is what any well-trained pilot would do, but in our society of uninformed reality tv zombies he became the Second Coming. Rather than be humble, he got the big ego stroke and proceeded to wear out his 15 minutes in about six flat. It’s slightly pathetic.
Bravo. Good job. Move along. He believed his own press and became a spectacle—and not for the good.
yes, your career is more important.
semp
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yes, your career is more important.
semp
I’m the first one to the crash site. Perhaps you missed that part.
I’m also one of the guys who trains the Sullys of the world.
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Spot on Semp. . . . . . .
I Salute Sully and Skiles :salute
Spot on what?
“No need to inflate what they did.”
There. Fixed it.
It’s utterly astounding that ditching in a river instead of hitting a building is now a bigger achievement than walking on the moon. “The soft bigotry of low expectations.”
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Spot on what?
“No need to inflate what they did.”
There. Fixed it.
It’s utterly astounding that ditching in a river instead of hitting a building is now a bigger achievement than walking on the moon. “The soft bigotry of low expectations.”
this quote really scares the crap out of me. think you train pilots, this is the reason why next time i go to Europe I'm driving there.
semp
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I’m the first one to the crash site. Perhaps you missed that part.
I’m also one of the guys who trains the Sullys of the world.
no you aren't, the plane and everybody on board is.
semp
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I’m the first one to the crash site. Perhaps you missed that part.
I’m also one of the guys who trains the Sullys of the world.
Maybe you could share with us your extensive experience training pilots in heavy jets... something of at least 100K lbs. GTOW and in the discipline of a major Airline.
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Why folks seem to think he's "the pinnacle" is because no one died when he ditched the plane. Really, that was extreme luck in that regard. As for him "buying into his hype", well, that is on him. It doesn't detract from the fact that he was able to pull off a successful ditch in where no one died.
I will whole heartily agree that Training is extremely important. It will make a difference, but, Training and Experience are two different things. Some here will truly understand the following: "You can train to kill a man all day, every day. It is not until the day you actually take a man's life, is when you truly find out..."
I'm not sure how much more clear I need to be in regards to the differences between Training and Experience.
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Spot on what?
“No need to inflate what they did.”
There. Fixed it.
It’s utterly astounding that ditching in a river instead of hitting a building is now a bigger achievement than walking on the moon. “The soft bigotry of low expectations.”
Spot on in that I agree with Semps response to your post. It was polite, and succinct.
You may not care for Sully for what he did before, during, or after Flight 1549, but that is no reason to hijack the thread (like I am doing now) and diminish Sullys/ Skiles action, or the OPs salute to them. Which obviously more than one of us felt that you did.
I also didn't "inflate" what they did, rather I recognized and acknowledged a well executed piece of airmanship. As an educated person, and airman I would think you could understand the difference.
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Since everyone seems to blame the plane now days.... it must have been the plane. Like the Max, the pilots had nothing to do with it.
:rolleyes:
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Since everyone seems to blame the plane now days.... it must have been the plane. Like the Max, the pilots had nothing to do with it.
:rolleyes:
You aren't suggesting that French airplanes have an affinity for Canadian made geese, are you?
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Since everyone seems to blame the plane now days.... it must have been the plane. Like the Max, the pilots had nothing to do with it.
:rolleyes:
Don't drag ME into ACHOO'S FUSS :old:
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Overrated. To quote a fellow Captain friend, “Of course they landed in the river. Where else were they gonna go?”
I did this exact thing in the simulator years before they did it.
Skiles I have no beef with. Sullnenberger just likes to hear himself talk.
/Rant
It is uncommon for it to end with no loss of life. He did it by the books. You couldn't land a date as well as he landed that rock.
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How do you think we learn to do the right thing when the situation goes Tango Uniform?
I flew jets with an ex-freight dog early in my career who impressed upon me the importance of always looking for a place to go if both engines quit. Why did he do that? Because it happened to him decades before Sully and Skiles.
People can be lulled into complacency with the reliability of modern airplanes, particularly jets. I learned a very important lesson from him that day and I’ve passed it along to every F/O I’ve flown with.
As for this particular crew... Any ATP worth his salt could do what they did. If not then they have no business in that cockpit.
You are just a salty old lady who never got his 5minutes of recognition for a job well done...sounds like you did a mediocre job!
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I’m the first one to the crash site. Perhaps you missed that part.
I’m also one of the guys who trains the Sullys of the world.
If you work for the FAA there's a 61% chance you are the root cause of the death of GA. Eat a bag of :banana:
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no you aren't, the plane and everybody on board is.
semp
You are brilliant semp. Dont give this slob the time of day. His profession is destroying general aviation.
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During this time of torment, we as pilots, both virtual and real, might want to pause to remember that 12 years ago tomorrow, Captain Chesley Sullenberger and First Officer Jeff Skiles demonstrated exceptional cool and skill to save 155 lives.
Figures he is ex USAF. :D
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Where else were they gonna go?”
/Rant
Well there's a lot of buildings in NYC...
I've seen what happens when a pilot panics and tries to pull off "the impossible turn". It happens almost annually out of FXE and North Perry.
Have you ever had to decide as a pilot that you're going to do a forced water landing in water that is below freezing with some 150+ souls on board? What happens in the simulator after you hit the water?
Not sure how cold the waters are in the simulator but id reckon you had your copilot with a bucket of ice water ready right?
You just want all the attention don't you boy
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Well there's a lot of buildings in NYC...
I've seen what happens when a pilot panics and tries to pull off "the impossible turn". It happens almost annually out of FXE and North Perry.
Have you ever had to decide as a pilot that you're going to do a forced water landing in water that is below freezing with some 150+ souls on board? What happens in the simulator after you hit the water?
Not sure how cold the waters are in the simulator but id reckon you had your copilot with a bucket of ice water ready right?
You just want all the attention don't you boy
Anyone in that position has to take what is given. There are usually no second choices in such an instance. He did what he had to do... just as anyone else would have to do. Make it or not. He just happened to make it. Luck and a lot of things happened to be on his side. A lot of folks survived. There are other pilots who have done so as well and just didn't accept the lime light.
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Well there's a lot of buildings in NYC...
I've seen what happens when a pilot panics and tries to pull off "the impossible turn". It happens almost annually out of FXE and North Perry.
Have you ever had to decide as a pilot that you're going to do a forced water landing in water that is below freezing with some 150+ souls on board? What happens in the simulator after you hit the water?
Not sure how cold the waters are in the simulator but id reckon you had your copilot with a bucket of ice water ready right?
You just want all the attention don't you boy
To be honest, I think after Busher's call-out, the silence is deafening.
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This thread has all the lulz
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Anyone in that position has to take what is given. There are usually no second choices in such an instance. He did what he had to do... just as anyone else would have to do. Make it or not. He just happened to make it. Luck and a lot of things happened to be on his side. A lot of folks survived. There are other pilots who have done so as well and just didn't accept the lime light.
The way sully handled the situation in the air and on the water, he deserves to be a hero and if he wants to milk the lime light as long as he can then good for him, hopefully it inspires some stoicism
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The way sully handled the situation in the air and on the water, he deserves to be a hero and if he wants to milk the lime light as long as he can then good for him, hopefully it inspires some stoicism
My point is... forget a day called Sully, there are many more out there that just do it and go on with their lives. All amazing in the same regard and some maybe more so.
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OR
Allow the OP to take a moment to recognize a job well done and let it be what it is - The respect and admiration from one Aviator to another Aviator.
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<S> TyFoo
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OR
Allow the OP to take a moment to recognize a job well done and let it be what it is - The respect and admiration from one Aviator to another Aviator.
Thank you Tyfoo. You are exactly right. Seems some won't recognize a good job unless they themselves are recognized.
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I posted that it was good.... just like many others have done a good job.
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My point is... forget a day called Sully, there are many more out there that just do it and go on with their lives. All amazing in the same regard and some maybe more so.
I can't think of anyone else who has landed an A320 in a river with ~150 souls on board.
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I can't think of anyone else who has landed an A320 in a river with ~150 souls on board.
LOL you forgot fuel load, flap settings, luggage weight, etc. You really want to drill down so he is not confused with other pilots who saved lives.
He was a good pilot just like many others.
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He was a good pilot just like many others.
And many good pilots can cause accidents...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Air_Lines_Flight_401
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And many good pilots can cause accidents...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Air_Lines_Flight_401
Some part their hair in the middle too....
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Some part their hair in the middle too....
I've heard the ones with the right stuff convert oxygen to carbon dioxide....
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Thank you Tyfoo. You are exactly right. Seems some won't recognize a good job unless they themselves are recognized.
You know what they say about any landing you can swim away from? :joystick: :old:
:salute
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He landed so perfectly wings level that it looked like a seaplane coming off step.
Any slight deviation from wings level would have skewed it and it snowballs into a "wing ripped off causing remaining wing to roll it" type of event.
I'd love to know the flaps settings and his touchdown speed.
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I can't think of anyone else who has landed an A320 in a river with ~150 souls on board.
That's because most of us don't have the random misfortune of hitting a flock of geese and flaming out two engines.
I contend that just about any Captain on that seniority list would have had the exact same outcome. There was literally no other choice.
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He landed so perfectly wings level that it looked like a seaplane coming off step.
Any slight deviation from wings level would have skewed it and it snowballs into a "wing ripped off causing remaining wing to roll it" type of event.
A bit of an exaggeration. And it's not exactly difficult to flare wings level, especially in a Bus where you probably just hold the stick full back and let the Normal Law keep you flying. With most wing-mounted engine airplanes you land wings level every single time any way.
Take a look at what those poor CFM-engined KC-135 crews have to contend with on the inboards.
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I posted that it was good.... just like many others have done a good job.
Exactly.
You wanna see something very few could pull off I contend it is what the crew and dead-head Check Airman did on United 232.
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Thank you Tyfoo. You are exactly right. Seems some won't recognize a good job unless they themselves are recognized.
No. It's just that some of us know what it's like to have been there and done that. Doers do, they don't have to talk.
When Bob Lilly or Randy White sacked a QB they didn't strut and preen. They acted like it was just another play.
That's what a real hero does.
Sully is doing doughnuts in the parking lot, running his mouth about how people who disagree with his politics are morons, and generally behaving like a man in love with his own press. Unbecoming and not a good reflection on the profession in the eyes of many of us.
One of the guys I flew Falcons with is married to a gal who was a CRJ Captain at a regional airline. She landed an airplane that blew an oil seal and filled the cockpit with smoke after takeoff. She couldn't see five inches in front of her face. Another 90 seconds and I doubt the outcome would have been survivable, it was that dire. Nobody even knows her name. *THAT* was something worthy of mention and a movie. It was exceptional.
I'm not diminishing what the USAir crew did. But the harsh reality is that Sullenberger did the job any competent Captain would have done, including you, Puma, Toad, myself, virtually every 121 Captain [of my generation and prior] I've ever flown with, etc. If not, then you have no business in the left seat. At least Skiles (his F/O) has stayed dignified throughout this.
Landing a jet with a smoke-filled cockpit and no EVAS? That's an entirely different level of accomplishment.
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No. It's just that some of us know what it's like to have been there and done that. Doers do, they don't have to talk.
When Bob Lilly or Randy White sacked a QB they didn't strut and preen. They acted like it was just another play.
That's what a real hero does.
Sully is doing doughnuts in the parking lot, running his mouth about how people who disagree with his politics are morons, and generally behaving like a man in love with his own press. Unbecoming and not a good reflection on the profession in the eyes of many of us.
One of the guys I flew Falcons with is married to a gal who was a CRJ Captain at a regional airline. She landed an airplane that blew an oil seal and filled the cockpit with smoke after takeoff. She couldn't see five inches in front of her face. Another 90 seconds and I doubt the outcome would have been survivable, it was that dire. Nobody even knows her name. *THAT* was something worthy of mention and a movie. It was exceptional.
I'm not diminishing what the USAir crew did. But the harsh reality is that Sullenberger did the job any competent Captain would have done, including you, Puma, Toad, myself, virtually every 121 Captain [of my generation and prior] I've ever flown with, etc. If not, then you have no business in the left seat. At least Skiles (his F/O) has stayed dignified throughout this.
Landing a jet with a smoke-filled cockpit and no EVAS? That's an entirely different level of accomplishment.
When exactly did you do anything in comparison to Sully's water landing?
I didn't see anything on the news about it...
Coogan
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When exactly did you do anything in comparison to Scully's water landing?
I didn't see anything on the news about it...
Coogan
Who is Scully? :rolleyes:
You don't see a lot of things on the news. Do you have ANY IDEA how many inflight smoke events occur on a daily basis?
Of course you don't.
And they are light years more perilous than ditching in a giant river that was gift wrapped right in front of you.
As for what I've done, you'll never know because I won't talk about it except privately among my colleagues IF they ask. The men I've mentioned in this thread are probably the same way.
Doers do, they don't have to talk.
I WILL, however, loudly and humbly proclaim all my mistakes and the knowledge gained as a result in the hope others will be spared learning those lessons the hard way.
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No. It's just that some of us know what it's like to have been there and done that. Doers do, they don't have to talk.
When Bob Lilly or Randy White sacked a QB they didn't strut and preen. They acted like it was just another play.
That's what a real hero does.
I'm usually in agreement with a lot of your ideas and conclusions pertaining to aviation, its the demeanor thats difficult to understand. I am not aware of any hazardous attitude that has ever been attributed to a positive outcome on the flight deck. I wouldn't be surprised if this subject hasn't reared its head in an eval or two in the past.
But to equate a football player sacking a quarterback and not strutting and preening as what "a real hero" does - to actually saving 150 lives - Well I am still shaking the gray matter around in my head and having to work through that . . . .lol I never realized a job in entertainment was as equitably important.
Be that what it may, I think many of us would love to hear about your "being there and done that" equivalent to what Sully did.
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Sully did an outstanding job that no doubt saved all their lives... Is sully the only one in the world that could have done that? Who knows but I bet every single passenger aboard that plane was glad sully was in command.. If you remember he wasn't praised as a hero at first.. he was under Mass scrutiny and criticism.... Under those exact set of circumstances I'm pretty sure no one here has faced.. So I'll take my sully flag and continue to March in the parade. Considering the name of this post is" sully day"not "look what others have done even better than sully day"
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I think he kept extra speed and concentrated on a very low vertical speed to remain in full control at touchdown.
Most of the ones I've seen end up losing a wing and rolling because one of the engines hanging off the wing touches down a few milleseconds before the other one and the remaining wing's lift doesn't have to do much to roll it.
Not sure I've ever landed a jet full stall.
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I'm usually in agreement with a lot of your ideas and conclusions pertaining to aviation, its the demeanor thats difficult to understand. I am not aware of any hazardous attitude that has ever been attributed to a positive outcome on the flight deck. I wouldn't be surprised if this subject hasn't reared its head in an eval or two in the past.
But to equate a football player sacking a quarterback and not strutting and preening as what "a real hero" does - to actually saving 150 lives - Well I am still shaking the gray matter around in my head and having to work through that . . . .lol I never realized a job in entertainment was as equitably important.
Be that what it may, I think many of us would love to hear about your "being there and done that" equivalent to what Sully did.
Ty, it’s a metaphor not an equivalency. But it is also what we are paid to do, as it is with football players or any other profession Be technically and tactically proficient, just like the Marine Corps. Anyone who isn’t has no business being a Captain.
“Never let an airplane take you somewhere that your brain didn't get to five minutes earlier.” This includes dual engine failure scenarios on takeoff.
Sully running his mouth about politics like he was anointed as a god for ditching a jet when he had no other choice is just bizarre—and unbecoming, if not downright insulting.
As for what I may or may not have done, with respect, that’s personal and I prefer to keep it that way.
:salute
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I think he kept extra speed and concentrated on a very low vertical speed to remain in full control at touchdown.
Most of the ones I've seen end up losing a wing and rolling because one of the engines hanging off the wing touches down a few milleseconds before the other one and the remaining wing's lift doesn't have to do much to roll it.
Not sure I've ever landed a jet full stall.
You can’t land an A-320/321/319 full stall. It won’t let you.
Which ones have you seen? I would be interested in hearing these.
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I'm with you busher.. Sully day for sure got my vote
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I'm with you busher.. Sully day for sure got my vote
If a day ain't good enough for Washington and Lincoln then it's too much for a Sullen Sully.
Professional Aviators' Day gets my vote and it should be on July 19. What the guys on UAL 232 did was the real miracle, not this.
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If a day ain't good enough for Washington and Lincoln then it's too much for a Sullen Sully.
Professional Aviators' Day gets my vote and it should be on July 19. What the guys on UAL 232 did was the real miracle, not this.
did you not read the op post?? Go start your own thread this was a salute to sully stop hijacking and dumping on a thread you have no interest in supporting. Go spread your hate elsewhere we are not impressed
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I'm with you busher.. Sully day for sure got my vote
Thank you. In spite of confusion to the contrary, I was not suggesting Sully's name be placed on the calendar. I was only reminding us of a job well done in a myopic world that rarely remembers accomplishments of 3 days previous.
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Thank you. In spite of confusion to the contrary, I was not suggesting Sully's name be placed on the calendar. I was only reminding us of a job well done in a myopic world that rarely remembers accomplishments of 3 days previous.
realized that but I was gonna run with it lol..btw V if you posted a UAL 232 thread about how remarkable what they were able to do and the fact that anybody survived is a miracle .I would agree What i wouldn't do is come to it and dump on it like what you did here.. Both remarkable equally completely different set of circumstances
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realized that but I was gonna run with it lol..btw V if you posted a UAL 232 thread about how remarkable what they were able to do and the fact that anybody survived is a miracle .I would agree What i wouldn't do is come to it and dump on it like what you did here.. Both remarkable equally completely different set of circumstances
Anyone who contends these two emergencies were even remotely equal has no concept of the subject at hand. What the United crew did was, as best I can determine, unprecedented--and unduplicated.
Just about any Captain could do what Sullen did. I know of not a soul that would dare suggest they could pull off what that United bunch did. I sure couldn't have.
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:ahand
did you not read the op post?? Go start your own thread this was a salute to sully stop hijacking and dumping on a thread you have no interest in supporting. Go spread your hate elsewhere we are not impressed
Lol. Cool story, bro.
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Anyone who contends these two emergencies were even remotely equal has no concept of the subject at hand. What the United crew did was, as best I can determine, unprecedented--and unduplicated.
Just about any Captain could do what Sullen did. I know of not a soul that would dare suggest they could pull off what that United bunch did. I sure couldn't have.
well I guess we will never know opinions very now don't they
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Anyone who contends these two emergencies were even remotely equal has no concept of the subject at hand. What the United crew did was, as best I can determine, unprecedented--and unduplicated.
Just about any Captain could do what Sullen did. I know of not a soul that would dare suggest they could pull off what that United bunch did. I sure couldn't have.
An unprecedented situation compared to an unprecedented situation. It is impossible to say that "any captain" could've done what Sully did in that situation, just like it is impossible to say that "any captain" could've done that was done on United 232.
I think it is safe to say that in in most major airline pilot's career(s), they'd never experience this sort of catastrophic failure. These types of incidents are one of a kind.
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An unprecedented situation compared to an unprecedented situation.
Many crews have successfully landed jets after a complete power loss. The notion this is unprecedented (compared to UAL 232's situation, which was--having been brought to a survivable conclusion) is laughable.
It is impossible to say that "any captain" could've done what Sully did in that situation, just like it is impossible to say that "any captain" could've done that was done on United 232.
Any well trained Captain could have--and would have--done what Sully did. I did it in the simulator a decade before he did in a jet I was not yet typed in. He had no other option, of COURSE he landed in the water. Same with my scenario. There was nowhere else to go.
UAL 232 is a different animal entirely. It's not the same ball game. It's not even the same sport.
I think it is safe to say that in in most major airline pilot's career(s), they'd never experience this sort of catastrophic failure. These types of incidents are one of a kind.
UAL was one of a kind. USAir was not. USAir's situation has happened numerous times before for various reasons from hail to fuel starvation to volcanic ash to mechanical failure to bird ingestion to inadvertent exceedance of operating limits to fuel filters freezing with water (this happened to a friend of mine at night and they saved the jet). Engines flameout. It's a fact of life.
Dead stick landings are practiced from the earliest days of primary training onward. I include engine out scenarios to every student I can to drive home the message that it can happen anywhere. When your engine quits you put the plane in the best spot you can find. The Hudson River is the logical choice--and in this case, the only one
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well I guess we will never know opinions very now don't they
But we do know. We can actually recreate this event in a very serious way and see the crew's reactions.
And we have already seen similar situations successfully concluded in real life.
The reality is that had Sullen done anything OTHER than land in the Hudson then he would be considered a complete fool. I think the thing that saved him was that it happened so low he didn't have a chance to seriously consider turning back toward Teterboro or La Guardia--otherwise he would have eaten a building.
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But we do know. We can actually recreate this event in a very serious way and see the crew's reactions.
And we have already seen similar situations successfully concluded in real life.
The reality is that had Sullen done anything OTHER than land in the Hudson then he would be considered a complete fool. I think the thing that saved him was that it happened so low he didn't have a chance to seriously consider turning back toward Teterboro or La Guardia--otherwise he would have eaten a building.
I understand that however recreation does not replace reality you can recreate something and program it into a simulator but in reality you get no second chances if you get it wrong.. We will just agree to disagree
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Exactly.
You wanna see something very few could pull off I contend it is what the crew and dead-head Check Airman did on United 232.
cool now you are doing the thing when we were kids, my father can beat up your father.
I've been on that river, once it was so bad I threw up. captain sully made a bad situation come out ok. and he got blamed for it, investigation tried to blame him for ditching in the river. I dont consider him a hero, hero is used way too many times. but I do give him credit for landing safely and not losing a soul. part of it is skill, part of it is god or luck whichever you prefer. luck part was the water was calm.
I kind of doubt the reference you said before about your friend's wife landed an airplane with smoke in the cabin and not being able to see more than 5 inches. mostly because that's an exaggeration on your part. been there in a car, lucky I didnt crash or kill somebody.
I think what bothers you is what he said or acted after. me as a passenger that bothers me. why? because you ignore luck and or will of god. no need to put somebody else down for doing something you have never done before or maybe you have, I dont know.
anyway, like I said before when I take my wife to Hawaii, I am driving or swimming there. I get too nervous in an airplane.
semp
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I've been on that river, once it was so bad I threw up. captain sully made a bad situation come out ok. and he got blamed for it, investigation tried to blame him for ditching in the river.
This is pure fiction. Hollywood.
I dont consider him a hero, hero is used way too many times. but I do give him credit for landing safely and not losing a soul. part of it is skill, part of it is god or luck whichever you prefer. luck part was the water was calm.
Here we do not disagree. Except rough waters would not preclude a successful outcome. The luck factor in my view was a lack of altitude forced his hand.
I kind of doubt the reference you said before about your friend's wife landed an airplane with smoke in the cabin and not being able to see more than 5 inches. mostly because that's an exaggeration on your part.
I couldn't care less what you doubt. I've read the NTSB report on the incident. The F/O had to get his face right up to the PFD to see it and as they rolled out after touching down they lost sight of the runway. They couldn't see the handle on the overhead to open it. They had to go by feel.
She was, and is, an outstanding aviator in every sense of the word and a few dozen people lived to tell the tale because of this.
been there in a car,
No, you haven't. Smoking a doobie in your car is not the same as smoke in cockpit from a blown oil seal. But then for the sake of argument let's say you have. Then you quite clearly understand the challenge of an inflight smoke event.
I practiced this in the Falcon sim at Teterboro FSI many years ago to learn how our EVAS worked. Mine didn't inflate properly and I had to give the jet to the other guy because I couldn't see my hand from as far away as my nose. Beyond configuring by Braille I was a passenger for the landing because I couldn't see a damned thing.
I think what bothers you is what he said or acted after. me as a passenger that bothers me. why? because you ignore luck and or will of god.
I'm the one who has repeatedly stated he was lucky on multiple levels. And the fact that he let his ego get ahead of this notion is a real problem.
no need to put somebody else down for doing something you have never done before or maybe you have, I dont know.
Putting him down for ditching? No. Putting him down for being an azzhat? Guilty as charged.
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Careful semp MR V read the NTSB report he knows everything... Just ask him
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Careful semp MR V read the NTSB report he knows everything... Just ask him
Someone's been staring at himself in the mirror too long I think, and I'm not referring to Sullen this time.
Refute me with facts. I'll wait. I better grab a Snickers because it'll be a long time before you can find any that will on this topic.
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Someone's been staring at himself in the mirror too long I think, and I'm not referring to Sullen this time.
Refute me with facts. I'll wait. I better grab a Snickers because it'll be a long time before you can find any that will on this topic.
well give me a second... It's gonna take me a minute to gather up all the names and addresses of the 155 passengers that owe their life to Sully how about that fact .. Enough said I quit you..... Enjoy your snickers azzhat
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he was an azzhat for losing 2 engines due to bird strike. it's your fault viraciu dont you train pilots to avoid birds? no radar?
I have trouble believing you can put your head 5 inches in front of the instrument while having the steering column or whatever you call it in front of her, you would have to really remove it, I cant do it in my car, and I would like to think instruments are that close, then they maybe a bit farther. was she the pilot or the copilot?
as for me not being able to see, my wife decided to spray herself with body spray and hit the ac just right to go into both of my eyes. I started blinking and all I could see was the steering wheel, and my nose was right next to it. I went from 45 to a stop safely. put blinkers on, just by feel. you could hear me yelling at my wife from 5 miles away.
semp
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Thank you. In spite of confusion to the contrary, I was not suggesting Sully's name be placed on the calendar. I was only reminding us of a job well done in a myopic world that rarely remembers accomplishments of 3 days previous.
I took it as a calendar event. We have a so many now... even this whole month celebrating black privilege.
he was an azzhat for losing 2 engines due to bird strike.
Not much one can do about that if birds are an issue at an airport. They spend lots of money trying to minimize the problem but birds will be birds. I realize you are referencing someone else.
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No, he was an azzhat, just like Greg Popovich is, for running his idiotic mouth about things that nobody gives a rat's behind what he thinks and offending half the country--that's over and above all the stupid crap he did after this happened that royally torqued off the true pros in this industry.
You NEVER saw Al Haynes, Denny Fitch, etc. behave in such an undignified, disgraceful, arrogant manner.
Sullen Day? Denied.
I addressed the one quote Shuffler cited, however, I'm not gonna bother reading anything else you write, Semp. You've lost all credibility on this subject in your role as permanent opposition party. I could say the sky is blue and you would debate it.
The guy lost both engines and landed in the only place available to him. Basic Airmanship 101. Bully for him. Anoint him king. /sarcastic blue.
/Discussion
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I am truly amazed at how "off the rails" this thread has gone. It was initiated by the approaching date. Had it been closer to July 19, I would have also ask for remembrance of Al Haynes, Bill Records, Dudley Dvorak and Dennis Fitch.
Thankfully very few professional pilots are faced with "all or nothing" emergencies, but to compare those incidents to one's personal accomplishments in a Simulator is intellectually corrupt. If you screw-up a simulator ditching the check pilot's debrief pales in comparison to the simulator cab filling with ice cold water.
One member seems to have a personal dislike for Chesley Sullenberger but I might surmise at the risk of incurring HiTech's wrath, that this dislike has it's foundation in this statement:
“For the first time in American history, a president has repeatedly shown utter and vulgar contempt and disrespect for those who have served and died serving our country,” the former pilot wrote. “While I am not surprised, I am disgusted by the current occupant of the Oval Office.”
With that, I would ask HiTech to close or delete the entire thread and I apologize to all for starting it.
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Agree! IN
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I am truly amazed at how "off the rails" this thread has gone. It was initiated by the approaching date. Had it been closer to July 19, I would have also ask for remembrance of Al Haynes, Bill Records, Dudley Dvorak and Dennis Fitch.
I'm sure you would have.
Thankfully very few professional pilots are faced with "all or nothing" emergencies
And yet we've seen what happens when poorly trained crews face them. We've also seen how mature, modest, quiet professionals behave after they succeed in walking away from them. It is most certainly not the way Sullen has done it.
but to compare those incidents to one's personal accomplishments in a Simulator is intellectually corrupt.
You have gone full scale on the localizer. Execute the missed and try again.
If simulators and what we learn from them and in them were "intellectually corrupt" we would still be doing rides in the jets themselves--and we would be crashing a lot of airplanes, both in training and the real world. Simulators are completely irreplaceable tools for teaching, learning, and evaluation. What you do in training you'll do in real life, good or bad.
Sullen did the only thing he could have in the situation--unless he wanted to do something stupid like try to return to the airport or make KTEB. It's the exact same thing others have done, only, I'll argue, it was actually easier in many respects. My experience in the simulator pre-dating this so-called "miracle" shows I'm right, you're not. My training and experience saved the [simulated] day just like thousands of my colleagues would have done, including in real life were it to come to that.
If you screw-up a simulator ditching the check pilot's debrief pales in comparison to the simulator cab filling with ice cold water.
They barely got their feet wet (and had they not screwed up the checklist they wouldn't have gotten even that little bit of water in the jet). That thing would have been a hazard to navigation for years regardless. And I'm not talking about an emergency evac over the wings--that hat tip goes ENTIRELY to the Flight Attendants who are completely ignored in this event--I'm focused on the act of getting that Bus down in one piece. Sullen put the jet in the water which was his only good option. I can pick 100 Captains at random out of the phone book who would have done the exact same thing--and perhaps done it better.
One member seems to have a personal dislike for Chesley Sullenberger but I might surmise at the risk of incurring HiTech's wrath, that this dislike has it's foundation in this statement:
“For the first time in American history, a president has repeatedly shown utter and vulgar contempt and disrespect for those who have served and died serving our country,” the former pilot wrote. “While I am not surprised, I am disgusted by the current occupant of the Oval Office.”
With that, I would ask HiTech to close or delete the entire thread and I apologize to all for starting it.
This slanderous/libelous quote [from Sullen] is a completely unmerited, unwarranted, baseless, and entirely idiotic statement from a man [Sullen] who likes seeing himself on TV long after his five minutes of fame expired. There is not one shred of truth to what he [Sullen] claimed. NOT ONE. It was (hopefully) the last in a long line of utterly ridiculous, uneducated, self-important tripe stemming from that arrogant, overrated, media-appointed water-walker [Sullen].
Super Storm Sandy!
Poloar Vortex!!!
Miracle on the Hudson!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
*Gag*
:rolleyes:
Meanwhile, more than one crew PER DAY in the US alone successfully land airplanes after inflight smoke events (my buddy's wife actually did it twice in one day because MX screwed up the repair) and not one of them has been [self-]elevated to the position of cultural icon or Presidential Kingmaker. It's really freaking twisted and should not be allowed to go by unaddressed just because some are too blinded by bias/hype to do so.
I *GUARANTEE* you if I changed the person referenced in that quote and went all over TV blabbing my mouth without being asked you would condemn me faster than you could pick up your cell phone no matter how many "miracles" I had pulled off.
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@Vraciu:
I'm very surprised that you were allowed back to the forums.
Clearly your past history has not been taken into consideration.
Coogan
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@Vraciu:
I'm very surprised that you were allowed back to the forums.
Clearly your past history has not been taken into consideration.
Coogan
So because I don't toe your party line I should be banned? How very enlightened of you. It's also hypocritical considering your personal attacks on me, of which I have never responded in kind. Perhaps you should be banned instead.
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You did change your post after viewing my reply to your post.
I guess that's what the "quote function" is for.
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You did change your post after viewing my reply to your post.
I guess that's what the "quote function" is for.
I regularly change my posts when I find typos and want to spell things out more clearly for proper context. That's what the edit function is for. (Although in this case I have no clue what you are talking about. It is also quite possible you replied to something while I was in mid-edit. That happens a lot. I see nothing out of sequence in my posts where yours are concerned, though. Edit in: I have edited this one again now, after you replied. LOL :D )
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I probably misread the time. Apologies.
You know we said the same thing different ways.
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I probably misread the time. Apologies.
You know we said the same thing different ways.
No sweat. I have no beef with you, old friend. :salute
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LOL he is a pilot... nothing else. He just needs to know the plane he is flying and react well.
I would not trust him for anything else as seems to be ignorant... going by his off the wall statement.
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As for what I may or may not have done, with respect, that’s personal and I prefer to keep it that way.
Convenient. AKA, nothing. :bolt:
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I would not trust him for anything else as seems to be ignorant... going by his off the wall statement.
Ignorant because his political views do not align with yours? How... :old:
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Convenient. AKA, nothing. :bolt:
#Weaksauce
I have no need to prove my bona fides to an anonymous troll.
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Ignorant because his political views do not align with yours? How... :old:
Ignorant because his assertions do not align with the FACTS.
He fell for a hoax and ran his mouth.
His ignorance extends well beyond politics and predates it by a long shot.
Next!!! :old:
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Ignorant because his assertions do not align with the FACTS.
He fell for a hoax and ran his mouth.
His ignorance extends well beyond politics and predates it by a long shot.
Next!!! :old:
I believe you'd be happier if the plane had crashed and nobody survived.
Is your life that bitter?
Coogan
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Convenient. AKA, nothing. :bolt:
Nail on the head there. :rofl
Coogan
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Nail on the head there. :rofl
Coogan
How many hours in jets do you have? Just curious. And I'm not even gonna ask you if you have a type rating--in anything--or even know what one is.
*Mic Drop*
:rofl
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I believe you'd be happier if the plane had crashed and nobody survived.
Is your life that bitter?
Coogan
The guy stalking me all over this forum for years just to insult me--for absolutely NO reason--is asking if *I* am bitter? Time to adjust the self-awareness setting.
Irony, why are you so delicious?
:rofl
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The guy stalking me all over this forum for years just to insult me--for absolutely NO reason--is asking if *I* am bitter? Time to adjust the self-awareness setting.
Irony, why are you so delicious?
:rofl
To answer your question that you PM'd me. I don't care if you re-post anything that I already posted.
Kinda redundant, but knock your socks off. Enjoy yourself.
Coogan
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To answer your question that you PM'd me. I don't care if you re-post anything that I already posted.
Kinda redundant, but knock your socks off. Enjoy yourself.
Coogan
You didn't answer my question and why would I repost anything? You are doing a bang up job on your own in this very thread.
So.....
You never answered my question. How many hours in jets do you have?
:rofl
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You didn't answer my question and why would I repost anything? You are doing a bang up job on your own in this very thread.
So.....
You never answered my question. How many hours in jets do you have?
:rofl
Did I ever claim to have flown a jet? (since you monitor my posts, this should be an easy one for you..)
Coogan
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Did I ever claim to have flown a jet? (since you monitor my posts, this should be an easy one for you..)
Coogan
Answer the question. How many hours in jets do you have? It's a very simple one. I have over ten thousand. How many do you have?
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Answer the question. How many hours in jets do you have? It's a very simple one. I have over ten thousand. How many do you have?
Do you have some mental issues you'd like to talk about? sbs or something like that happened in your past that you're trying to deal with?
Coogan
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Do you have some mental issues you'd like to talk about? sbs or something like that happened in your past that you're trying to deal with?
Coogan
Don't deflect. You like to make snarky comments at my expense. So let's hear how many hours in jets you have.
*Crickets*
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Simulators can do things you’ll never see in real life until it happens the first time. By then it may be too late. And frankly, simulators can be much harder to fly than the real thing.
Risked nothing? I risk my career every time I step foot in a simulator.
I found this statement quite inciteful. I do have a significant number of flying hours and I can't understand "career risk" from a simulator.
I see those in a sales job facing real career jeopardy if they don't maintain a steady improvement in their sales numbers. I see those in executive positions fearing for their careers should the Board of Directors notice a failure to reduce costs or increase productivity.
But every professional pilot I ever worked with looked forward to practicing and honing their skills in the simulator. And as to the checkride... it was nothing more than a chance to show that you can do what you might need to do for real tomorrow in the airplane... to show that you can do your job.
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Ignorant because his political views do not align with yours? How... :old:
Ignorant as in made up pipe dream.
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I'm just waiting for the story about the Scorpion Sting and secret F-16 missions over Baghdad. :D
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I found this statement quite inciteful. I do have a significant number of flying hours and I can't understand "career risk" from a simulator.
'
I guess American companies have higher standards than Canadian ones. Every time I take a check ride it is a jeopardy event that can result in the loss of my license/qualification should I fail. And since I'm also an instructor, TCE, and Captain on multiple types I can count my annual jeopardy events on two hands. This doesn't count the uncountable legs I fly where my career/life are on the line when I say, "Check Thrust."
*mic drop*
But every professional pilot I ever worked with looked forward to practicing and honing their skills in the simulator. And as to the checkride... it was nothing more than a chance to show that you can do what you might need to do for real tomorrow in the airplane... to show that you can do your job.
I know of nobody who enjoys their check ride. The standards here are strict, particularly in 121. One error can ruin you.
My dad was a 737 Captain with well over 30,000 hours. He was the finest pilot I've ever known and he never once enjoyed check rides.
You've been out of the game too long.
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Ignorant as in made up pipe dream.
Thank you. Exactly correct. As was your prior post.
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'
I guess American companies have higher standards than Canadian ones. Every time I take a check ride it is a jeopardy event that can result in the
And since I'm also an instructor, TCE, and Captain on multiple types I can count my annual jeopardy events on two hands. This doesn't count the uncountable legs I fly where my career/life are on the line when I say, "Check Thrust."
*mic drop*
I know of nobody who enjoys their check ride. The standards here are strict, particularly in 121. One error can ruin you.
My dad was a 737 Captain with well over 30,000 hours. He was the finest pilot I've ever known and he never once enjoyed check rides.
You've been out of the game too long.
I'm not surprised that you would suggest that American standards exceed those of other advanced nations.
"loss of my license/qualification should I fail." - I would counter that if the pilot, or his instructor, or his employer believe there is any possibility of failure, then that pilot has no place in the organization.
A check ride by the very regulations, can contain no tricks and only requires that candidate to demonstrate essentially correct responses to a number of abnormals or emergencies. Grounds for failure are limited to Loss of Control of the Aircraft/Simulator; Violation of applicable Air Regulations; Incorrect response to an abnormal or emergency procedure; or failure to respond to an abnormal or emergency situation. You may have forgotten that I too was an instructor/check pilot likely long before you entered the industry.
One last comment on your obvious slight to Canadian Pilot Standards. "and Captain on multiple types". Canadian aviation regulations 705 governs large commercial operations in the same way FAA Part 121 does for you. One major exception is that Canadian regulations prohibit pilots from maintaining qualification on multiple types believing that it has the potential to contribute to cockpit errors.
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I'm not surprised that you would suggest that American standards exceed those of other advanced nations.
"loss of my license/qualification should I fail." - I would counter that if the pilot, or his instructor, or his employer believe there is any possibility of failure, then that pilot has no place in the organization.
No, it implies that anyone can make a mistake on any day and inadvertently bust a pass/fail limit. I guarantee you that anyone can be placed into a position of failure by a rabid check airman. I've seen it happen.
I just showed my co-Captain (a retired Check Airman with 25+ years in 121) what you wrote and I won't be able to publish what he said. But basically he says you're full of something. He also hated taking Check Rides.
"I can bust anybody in a sim. I can bust Chuck Yeager in a sim." His [printable] words.
A check ride by the very regulations, can contain no tricks and only requires that candidate to demonstrate essentially correct responses to a number of abnormals or emergencies. Grounds for failure are limited to Loss of Control of the Aircraft/Simulator; Violation of applicable Air Regulations; Incorrect response to an abnormal or emergency procedure; or failure to respond to an abnormal or emergency situation. You may have forgotten that I too was an instructor/check pilot likely long before you entered the industry.
Apparently you weren't paying attention then and it must have been a LONG time ago because I've been at this for quite awhile. I could bust you any time I wanted without any tricks. It's not hard to do that to someone. And if you think it doesn't happen you're living in a fantasy world. Thankfully, I am ethical, empathetic, and realistic and would not do such a thing--even to one of my detractors on this forum.
I can bust you for anything that does not meet the standards for the FAA ATP as a Captain. Steep turns, stalls, etc. are all fair game and some of the parameters are subjective. As I said, I guess American standards are higher/tighter or more arcane, whatever term works better.
One last comment on your obvious slight to Canadian Pilot Standards. "and Captain on multiple types". Canadian aviation regulations 705 governs large commercial operations in the same way FAA Part 121 does for you. One major exception is that Canadian regulations prohibit pilots from maintaining qualification on multiple types believing that it has the potential to contribute to cockpit errors.
All the more reason why you do not comprehend the reality of my profession and circumstances.
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No, it implies that anyone can make a mistake on any day and inadvertently bust a pass/fail limit. I guarantee you that anyone can be placed into a position of failure by a rabid check airman. I've seen it happen.
I just showed my co-Captain/Check Airman with 25 years in 121 what you wrote and I won't be able to publish what he said. But basically he says you're full of something. He also hated taking Check Rides every time.
Apparently you weren't paying attention then and it must have been a LONG time ago because I've been at this for quite awhile. I could bust you any time I wanted without any tricks. It's not hard to do that to someone. And if you think it doesn't happen you're living in a fantasy world. Thankfully, I am ethical, empathetic, and realistic and would not do such a thing--even to one of my detractors on this forum.
All the more reason why you do not comprehend the reality of my profession and circumstances.
Well V I am sorry that you work in such a negative environment. "Rabid Check Pilots"; "I could bust you any time I wanted without any tricks. It's not hard to do that to someone"; "He also hated taking Check Rides every time".'
Apparently you were quite right that American standards are different than what I am used to. I have had to issue failure assessments but the goal was always to improve performance. Most improved but a slim few left the industry.
It's my opinion and that of the entire Flight Standards Department i worked in, that the goal must always to enhance and reinforce knowledge and skill. If the entire pilot group does not honestly believe this Mission Statement, then all the money spent on simulator training/check rides is a waste of time and overall flight safety will not be enhanced. There were almost 1000 pilots in the crew base of the Airline I worked at. Sim days were paid like another working day and I enjoyed watching new hire attitudes change from Sim intimidation to a positive opportunity to learn or reinforce skill. And one last thing.. rabid check pilots are as dangerous to a pilot community as are "badge heavy" Captains - they are a clear and explicit example of a failure.
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Well V I am sorry that you work in such a negative environment. "Rabid Check Pilots"; "I could bust you any time I wanted without any tricks. It's not hard to do that to someone"; "He also hated taking Check Rides every time".'
Apparently you were quite right that American standards are different than what I am used to. I have had to issue failure assessments but the goal was always to improve performance. Most improved but a slim few left the industry.
It's my opinion and that of the entire Flight Standards Department i worked in, that the goal must always to enhance and reinforce knowledge and skill. If the entire pilot group does not honestly believe this Mission Statement, then all the money spent on simulator training/check rides is a waste of time and overall flight safety will not be enhanced. There were almost 1000 pilots in the crew base of the Airline I worked at. Sim days were paid like another working day and I enjoyed watching new hire attitudes change from Sim intimidation to a positive opportunity to learn or reinforce skill. And one last thing.. rabid check pilots are as dangerous to a pilot community as are "badge heavy" Captains - they are a clear and explicit example of a failure.
On this you and I agree. I have long advocated the position that learning is not enhanced with fear or intimidation. However, despite my best attempts to assuage the anguish of my clients in advance of giving them a checkride they almost without exception are filled with anxiety.
In the US a failure on a ride for ANY cause throws up a red flag. Due to insurance requirements and other factors they can be the kiss of death for a pilot's career. In the 121 world in particular they can lead to termination resulting in consequences that one never escapes from, especially in this new post-Colgan Air 3407 era. (The recent Atlas Air crash will only make this worse.) Part 135 has a limited allowance for retraining depending on the failure, but it is still a jeopardy ride.
You had the proper attitude in wanting to enhance learning. I am the same way. Sadly, even attempts by 121 carriers to enhance learning with new "progressive training" cycles (AQP, CQ) have not removed the jeopardy aspects of the endeavor.
:salute