General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Getback on February 04, 2025, 04:49:23 AM
Title: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Getback on February 04, 2025, 04:49:23 AM
On Tuesday, December 19, 2023, I was diagnosed with Diabetes. The Monday before I woke up dizzy and when I went to get my clothes out of the dryer and fainted. I felt myself falling but I couldn't stop it. Lucky me I bounced off a stack of toilet paper and only tweaked my elbow. No broken bones! Yaye! However, I couldn't get up. I had to crawl to my office across the foyer to pull myself up on the office couch. Still, it took all the strength I had. If you like irony my job was to drive people to doctor appointments including dialysis. Yet I sat on the couch for 20 minutes trying to decide if I should go to work. I finally called into work and cancelled for the day and then the rest of the week. I was just so weak.
I made a doctor appointment, and they got me in the next day. They immediately tested my blood. My A1C was 14.7. The nurse practitioner said I was diabetic, and it was the highest A1C she had ever seen in the office. I found out later it was in the range where they start cutting off toes. They went over very thoroughly on what I needed to do. The jest of it was cutting carbs and sugar. They suggested no more than 70 carbs per meal. She also suggested that I join the Wellness Center for 60 days. It's a gym and more. They have dieticians and therapists. I joined. They brought out the divided plate and the food pyramid (More on that later). Right after the doctor's appointment I went to McDonalds twice and Hardees once. That was the last of those visits.
That night I was about to eat a nice bowl of Spanish Rice with smoked sausage when the Nurse Practitoner called. "What are you eating now?" "Spanish Rice." "No, no, no! That's starch!" I threw it out. Then went to the fridge and threw out 2 other starchy pots. The next day I threw out all starchy foods in my cupboard and cleaned out the fridge. I gave some away. I never went back to that way of eating. It wasn't easy. I used to eat up to two loaves of bread each week. Every time I made Bacon and Eggs; I would look at the toaster. Then I finally put the toaster away.
Prior to the doctor's visit I had been losing weight. Every time I ate, I got sick. I thought restaurants were serving me bad food. As it turns out it was the bread and French fries. I would be sick for about 2 days after eating out. Then there was the unquenchable thirst. I had all the signs of diabetes and failed to realize that I had diabetes. My doctor pointed out that she spent $200,000 to know these things.
I thought 70 grams of carbs per meal was a low bar. I guessed that was because the doctor was used to people not taking responsibility for their health. I did a ton of research about diabetes and carb intake. I never saw one person recommend anything more that 50 carbs per day and everyone suggested going lower. Most experts on YouTube also suggested fasting to get the fat out of your liver. Fasting! Never! That attitude changed. I found a channel on YouTube that I strongly recommend, "Beat Diabetes".
I started eating Keto. I ate more meat and no starchy vegetables. There went some of my favorites, potatoes, corn, carrots, and peas. I started eating spinach, mustard greens, and similar items. Three months later I went back to the doctor for another A1C test. It had dropped from 14.7 to 6.3. My doctor had written a note to herself to prescribe me Insulin. She tore the note up in front of me. For those who don't know it Insulin will actually make you fat. Dr. Fung said I can make anyone fat, just give them Insulin.
While at that visit my doctor urged me to get a colonoscopy. They have been urging me to get one for 20+ years. They found blood in my stool when I had Pneumonia in October of 2021. Oh, okay. I was tired of being nagged. I really thought I would cancel, I didn't. Afterwards the doctor explained that this was a polyp, and this was a polyp, and this was cancer. I was in shock! Try going through your day with that over your head. I held myself together for 2 whole days. Then I went to work. I didn't want to talk to anyone. I just wanted to go out to the van and do my job. One driver noticed I wasn't joking around like usual. He followed me to my van and asked if I was okay. I said no, barely holding myself together. He went to get another driver. I was sitting in the van when Bob came up to me His wife calls him Saint Bob. Ron, what's going on. I started bawling and told them what was going on and apologized for being such a wimp. Saint Bob said Ron, go home and gave me a hug. He took over my schedule. I had to walk through the office to get to the HR office to let them know. It seemed like an eternity.
My son went with me to the Colonoscopy because I wouldn't be able to drive. He was in shock as well. I teased him about getting a tube shoved up my rear while they gave him gift cards to Starbucks and the hospital cafeteria. I still do.
Within 30 days I was in the hospital getting a Colon Resection. Once again that changed the way I ate. I couldn't have fiber or residue. That means no veggies! Well, I could have fermented vegetables. My kids and my brother all came up for the operation. Prior to the operation I thanked the hospital staff and told them I was scared. The Anesthesiologist said were just giving you a little oxygen, I was out!
The operation went extremely well, no colonoscopy bag, no infections, and no leaks! In fact, I was out of the hospital the next day. My youngest daughter and brother stayed with me for a couple of days to make sure everything went well.
Two weeks later the surgeon called. I was cancer free! The relief was incredible! I have never felt so much stress!
The whole experience changed my way of eating drastically. I now eat mostly meat. For a month after the surgery I couldn't have fiber and never went back to it. These days 90+ percent of my diet is meat, mostly beef. My A1C is now 5.6 which is in the normal range.
I have now lost nearly 128 pounds. I tell people I lost half of my weight because I was sick and the other half because I wanted to live. I'm 71 and now can race my 4 year old grandson. I always lose but I'm in the race.
I weigh 222 pounds. At one time I was over 350. I don't know how much because the sliding scales only went to 350. I would guess maybe 370-375. I just count the 350. My BMI has dropped from 49 to 31. My blood pressure is in the normal range. My pants size dropped from 56 to 38. I don't believe it. I think more clearly and feel the best I have in years.
Back to the food pyramid. One doctor had this to say about the food pyramid, "You live by the Food Pyramid, you die by the Food Pyramid, and along the way you look like the Food Pyramid. The Divided Plate is an abbreviated version of the Food Pyramid in my opinion.
Your mental health and your physical health all start with Nutrition. It was a tough lesson to learn. As mentioned, I take people to dialysis. Some are missing toes, fingers, legs, losing vision. I've had 5 die in my short tenure on this job. Several quit going to dialysis. It's not a pleasant experience. My ex-wife quit going to dialysis and passed away. It was horrible to watch. All of these things impacted my resolve to get well.
The last thing I will say; One of my first thoughts throughout this experience is that, "We are the cure we've been looking for!" Our health is our responsibility. Though it sure doesn't hurt to have some great surgeons and doctors.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Eagler on February 04, 2025, 07:34:31 AM
Glad to hear you are doing better Getback!
Your health is everything as you know more than most of us
Move if/when you can..exercise is paramount
Best of luck with the new lifestyle sir!
Eagler
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Maverick on February 04, 2025, 09:45:44 AM
Yep getting a cancer diagnosis will quite literally scare the crap out of you. The first experience I had with it was with my Mother. Later on my Wife and then me, twice. I've pretty much run out of organs I can live without now.
I started exercising after the kindey cancer. To me I didn't bounce back like I thought I should have. My urologist that removed the football size tumor thinks I'm nuts for that as he damn near cut me in half to get it out. My BP is good, my cholesterol is great and I am working to lose weight. While I was not morbidly obese I was up to 230 and at 5'10" that was too much. I'm down to 215 and hitting a plateau there. I'd love to get back to the 185 I was at when I got back from my first Army school in 76.
You are doing all the right things so keep at it. Are you having issues with constipation since you have cut out virtually all fiber?
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: xanax on February 04, 2025, 11:08:27 AM
I ate more meat and no starchy vegetables. There went some of my favorites, potatoes, corn, carrots, and peas. I started eating spinach, mustard greens, and similar items. Three months later I went back to the doctor for another A1C test. It had dropped from 14.7 to 6.3. My doctor had written a note to herself to prescribe me Insulin. She tore the note up in front of me. For those who don't know it Insulin will actually make you fat. Dr. Fung said I can make anyone fat, just give them Insulin.
Good on ya! Even the ADA and other organizations for diabetes are starting to realize you can reverse and send diabetes into remission by cutting out the carbs. Rather than "managing" diabetes, you can lower that A1C to normal levels under 5.7% and be done with the meds and be diabetes free. The side benefit is the weight loss and reduction of all the inflammation caused by the over consumption of glucose.
The food pyramid is a lie designed by big food and big pharmaceutical companies. They got to sponsor the studies and they got to be the big lobbyists. Then they got to tell us what we should be eating.
Keep up the great work, Getback. It's never too late to feel good again and you're doing it in spades.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Getback on February 04, 2025, 11:41:09 AM
Yep getting a cancer diagnosis will quite literally scare the crap out of you. The first experience I had with it was with my Mother. Later on my Wife and then me, twice. I've pretty much run out of organs I can live without now.
I started exercising after the kindey cancer. To me I didn't bounce back like I thought I should have. My urologist that removed the football size tumor thinks I'm nuts for that as he damn near cut me in half to get it out. My BP is good, my cholesterol is great and I am working to lose weight. While I was not morbidly obese I was up to 230 and at 5'10" that was too much. I'm down to 215 and hitting a plateau there. I'd love to get back to the 185 I was at when I got back from my first Army school in 76.
You are doing all the right things so keep at it. Are you having issues with constipation since you have cut out virtually all fiber?
Surprisingly it's fiber that causes constipation. I had no fiber at all for a month and then made some allegedly diabetic baked beans. I became constipated and it hurt as I was not completely healed from the surgery. Humans just don't fully digest plants. Corn going in looks like corn coming out.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 04, 2025, 11:43:44 AM
On Tuesday, December 19, 2023, I was diagnosed with Diabetes.
I've stopped discussing nutrition with people for the same reasons I no longer discuss religion or politics.
But if I run into a fellow traveler, I'll compare notes. ;)
Over the years I've tried to get more paleo\keto. The further I go the better I feel. I finally just did a 1.5 yr stint on 99% Carnivore and NEVER felt better. All my blood markers across the board improved drastically. BP, glucose, A1C, cholesterol were all getting worrisome at one point. Perfect after 3 mo of Carnivore. So initial arthritis I was starting to get in back, knees and hands, gone. Lots of headaches, gone. Sleep quality much improved. The effects took about 3 months to manifest, but were surprising and awesome.
Then real life got in the way and I've gone through a couple of years of chaos and having to travel alot and be in environments where it was near impossible to control my diet and menu and things kinda fell apart and I started eating like an American again and feeling like crap.
Now life is stabilized and I am getting back on the wagon and feeling much better.
I eat a mess of eggs and a little bacon in morning.
My only real cheats most of the time are 2 cups of black coffee and 1 slice of toast in the morning. Life isn't worth living without at least 2 cups of black coffee. ;) And my one slice of bread is in the morning so I have all day to burn it and at least it is a great vehicle to carry a big glop of Kerry-Gold butter.
Later lunch (Lupper?) around 3-4pm of water, sea salt, ~1lb of animal flesh (mostly beef, sometimes fish, chicken, pork). I try to have nothing else the rest of the day.
I occasional plan a cheat day but I find it's never as satisfying as I dream it's going to be.
I try and get in a 24hr fast once a month.
It drives me crazy when I know people having problems I think that diet would help with, but people get so locked into what they told them in the 70's was healthy or what Dr. Oz tells them.
I say look, just give it a full honest try for 3 mo. Run all your panels before and after and comeback and tell me it didn't improve your health drastically. 3 months is not going to kill you. Even Veganism wouldn't kill you in 3 months. Just try it honestly 3 mo. and see how it works for you. I'm never known anyone who gave it a honest try who wasn't amazed at the results.
The only problem I've ever had is getting my electrolytes dialed-in. I take some supplements to make sure I get proper electrolytes and micro nutrients. mainly because I don't like organ meat very much.
$0.02.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Getback on February 04, 2025, 11:45:54 AM
Good on ya! Even the ADA and other organizations for diabetes are starting to realize you can reverse and send diabetes into remission by cutting out the carbs. Rather than "managing" diabetes, you can lower that A1C to normal levels under 5.7% and be done with the meds and be diabetes free. The side benefit is the weight loss and reduction of all the inflammation caused by the over consumption of glucose.
The food pyramid is a lie designed by big food and big pharmaceutical companies. They got to sponsor the studies and they got to be the big lobbyists. Then they got to tell us what we should be eating.
Keep up the great work, Getback. It's never too late to feel good again and you're doing it in spades.
The ADA is corrupt. They had a Black Woman doctor who reversed diabetes by cutting carbs and posted about it. They fired her. She settled out of court for a million dollars. The Director of Nutrition at the ADA is a morbidly obese woman who was recommending the divided plate. One person responded said she looked like she's been taking her own advice.
Thank you all for the encouragement!
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Getback on February 04, 2025, 12:08:07 PM
CptTrips that is the most honest assessment I have ever seen. You may want to search "No Carb Life" on YouTube.
As I said before my job is to take people to Dialysis. None of these people are doing the right thing. One guy is going blind but takes sugary soda to dialysis with him. One lady that is missing fingers and a leg told how good this donut shop is. It's heartbreaking and tragic.
I could have written a book. However, most of you seem very aware. I like that. I like hearing about your experiences too.
CptTrips, like you I try to refrain from conversations about diet. People have been brainwashed, and I was among them. I've heard nurses tell me that I was doing it wrong and that I need vegetables. Then I tell them I've lost 128 lbs. They go quiet.
Exercise is great! I'll be off to the park in a few minutes to walk and then to the Wellness Center. I will tell you this, you cannot out exercise a bad diet! I've tried. Everything starts with nutrition.
I actually cut out 3 items: carbs, sugar, and seed oils. It takes up to 3 years for the inflammation from seed oils to leave the body. It's a forever chemical.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 04, 2025, 12:13:19 PM
I actually cut out 3 items: carbs, sugar, and seed oils. It takes up to 3 years for the inflammation from seed oils to leave the body. It's a forever chemical.
Yeah. No Frankenstein oils for me either.
Kerry-Gold or, I make my own ghee, I strain and save my bacon grease, I have a jar of beef tallow.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Getback on February 04, 2025, 12:20:14 PM
I eat a mess of eggs and a little bacon in morning.
My only real cheats most of the time are 2 cups of black coffee and 1 slice of toast in the morning. Life isn't worth living without at least 2 cups of black coffee. ;) And my one slice of bread is in the morning so I have all day to burn it and at least it is a great vehicle to carry a big glop of Kerry-Gold butter.
Later lunch (Lupper?) around 3-4pm of water, sea salt, ~1lb of animal flesh (mostly beef, sometimes fish, chicken, pork). I try to have nothing else the rest of the day.
I occasional plan a cheat day but I find it's never as satisfying as I dream it's going to be.
I try and get in a 24hr fast once a month.
It drives me crazy when I know people having problems I think that diet would help with, but people get so locked into what they told them in the 70's was healthy or what Dr. Oz tells them.
The only problem I've ever had is getting my electrolytes dialed-in. I take some supplements to make sure I get proper electrolytes and micro nutrients. mainly because I don't like organ meat very much.
$0.02.
Black coffee ain't cheating or hurting unless caffeine is bothering the bladder or something. I drink 3 cups in the morning before noon.
I quit carbs years ago. My labs are excellent and I feel fantastic at 56. I still mountain bike and road bike like a fiend, golf, play softball and pickle ball. Had to finally give up skiing due to multiple previous knee injuries but it's too expensive anyways.
The greatest benefit to me is the dramatic reduction of inflammation. It's amazing when all those maladies I would just put up with-the aches, pains etc. just up and disappeared after a few weeks without carbs.
Electrolytes: I drop a packet of LMT brand electrolytes into a glass of water every few days and take a B-12 tab daily.
I splurge and do a ribeye once a week....just enough to not get sick of them. And my smoker is rarely idle. I'm prepping a pork tenderloin in a few minutes for a nice 6 hour smoke.
I gave up trying to tell people too. Lately, the word is getting out though.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 04, 2025, 12:35:59 PM
On the constipation issue, part of that is initially people may also be having electrolyte issues that interfere with things.
Also, people might THINK they are constipated, but they are not.
Unlike a lot of the plant material that the body rejects, pretty much 100% of that ribeye is completely and totally absorbed by the body and used for fuel. On Carnivore there is just a lot less rejected material the body needs to eliminate. You volume is just going to naturally decrease. That is not constipation. That is a sign the body accepted all of what you gave it as useful fuel. That reduces wear and stress on your gut systems. You'll still have some because the body is constantly eliminating old blood and intestinal lining cells and old lymph fluids.
I have a friend who's health is crap. He has various bowl an autoimmune issues. He has had a quad by-pass and he tells me my diet is going to kill me. He is one of those whole food plant based diet people. Won't even give Carnivore try 3 months as a science experiment. Hmmmmm OK. Everyone has to choose their own path. :rofl
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Eagler on February 04, 2025, 12:41:32 PM
The ADA is corrupt. They had a Black Woman doctor who reversed diabetes by cutting carbs and posted about it. They fired her. She settled out of court for a million dollars. The Director of Nutrition at the ADA is a morbidly obese woman who was recommending the divided plate. One person responded said she looked like she's been taking her own advice.
Thank you all for the encouragement!
Absolutely corrupt, no argument here. At least they now have added this in their website after all the backlash:
"People with type 2 diabetes should be considered in remission after sustaining normal blood glucose (sugar) levels for three months or more, according to a new consensus statement from the American Diabetes Association® (ADA), the Endocrine Society, the European Association for the Study of Diabetes and Diabetes UK."
Quite remarkable and money down the drain for big pharma and big fooda if people want to reverse the disease rather than manage it via drugs and flawed diet.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: xanax on February 04, 2025, 12:51:18 PM
Kerry-Gold or, I make my own ghee, I strain and save my bacon grease, I have a jar of beef tallow.
The Kerry-Gold with the sea salt added has been a boon of me, good stuff. I need to start saving my bacon grease more.
There's only one thing better than a bacon wrapped scallop......bacon wrapped bacon!
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 04, 2025, 02:03:55 PM
I'm sure we've prolly seen most of the same videos as fellow travelers. And there are hundreds.
Here is a recent one though that I thought was very good.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Getback on February 04, 2025, 03:57:35 PM
Since going Keto/Carnivore here are some of the changes:
No knee pain No tartar buildup on my teeth and healed gums No more snoring or sleep apnea Weight loss Muscle gain No constipation No diabetes Lower blood pressure Mental clarity Less anxiety (I was full of anxiety) No being hungry after a couple of hours. I've gone 48 hours without eating before I was hungry. I ate a 40-ounce Ribeye on a Tuesday, and it didn't eat again until Thursday evening. That actually resulted in a 1.5 weight loss.
Now some of these benefits are the result of what I don't eat more than what I eat.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 04, 2025, 11:56:08 PM
Here is a tip to help save some money. When I was working full-time, I just bought rib-eyes. I'd by a pack of them and have a big rib-eye most days. Now that is hard to justify the cost. This is a trick that gets you pretty good meat at the price of hamburger. Not quite rib-eye quality, but way better than ground meat IMHO.
If you get a chuck roast, it is essentially composed of 3 different muscle groups. Traditionally you drop that in a crock-pot and just cook down to what the worst part of the roast needs to get tender. If you separate the muscle groups, you can optimize the cooking for the different muscles. The part of the roast that is sometimes called Chuck-eye is right next to where they cut rib-eyes from so has a lot of the same characteristics and flavor. A little tougher but that can be handled if cooked right.
Here are some examples. The part that he is cutting into beef short-ribs can instead be sliced horizontally like he does the chuck-eye to make stakes instead short-ribs. This is some times sold by butchers as "Denver Steaks".
There is a portion a the end of the roast that is neither chuck-eye not Denver steak. Do it a few times and it's easy to recognize by very little marbling. This gets cubed for stew meat in the Instant Pot and comes out great. From the rest I get 2 chuck-eye and 2 Denver steaks. I sous vide the steaks at 130 for 24 hrs then cool in the sink in cold water and save for later in the week. All I have to do is pull one out and pat it dry with paper towels and sear in bacon grease in a cast iron to bring to serving temp when I want one.
So a roast will give me 4 descent quality steaks and a pack of stew meat all for the price of hamburger. And these are IMHO way better than hamburger. Almost as good as rib-eye (except for the stew meat).
This is a visualization of how I would divide it up:
Good stuff, I gotta implement a bunch of that. Need to get sous vide machine. Crockpot and smokers are friends for sure. Lately I've buying tr-tip (Santa Maria steak, California cut or Newport steak) and smoking the whole thing or cutting into steaks and grilling.
Pork shoulder in the crock for 8 hours makes a good number of meals and pork belly has been cheap lately so in the smoker it goes to become burnt ends or bacon. Lots of good salmon up here for grilling along with halibut.
Ground beef, chicken and various sausages are staples.
Eggs are getting pricey due to flu slaughters but still cheap enough for meals. And bacon....gotta keep a good supply at all times.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Getback on February 05, 2025, 03:14:35 AM
Yummy!
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Getback on February 05, 2025, 03:39:24 AM
What's diabetes like?!
Most people I take to dialysis are very weak and use wheelchairs.
I shoot a lot of archery. At one time I could shoot up to 120 arrows per outing. When you have an A1C of 14.7 that means that 14.7 percent of your red blood cell is covered in sugar. They don't get many nutrients and not much oxygen. After being diagnosed with Diabetes and on my way to healing I could only shoot one arrow. It took all of my strength to do that. I thought something was wrong with the bow, so I had someone test it. Nope, bow is fine. I went to the range once and someone else had to pull my arrow out of the bale. After months of working out and healing I was able to shoot 10 arrows. I can't wait to get to the archery range again. I know I've healed considerably.
It was the same at work, I could barely get into the van by the end of the day and though I only lived 10 minutes away from work I wondered at times if I would make it home.
When you have diabetes, you lose body. I had no hair on my legs, arms, or chest and my scalp was thinning. In fact, one of the reasons I knew I was healing was because my body hair was coming back.
Then there were the constant upset stomachs. I spent half of the time with stomach discomfort.
The people I take to dialysis when not at dialysis are in the hospital.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: icepac on February 05, 2025, 04:35:49 AM
When I went to college, I left my Tink Nathan bow at home and it vanished.
Happened in 1983 and I still feel that bummer as well as losing my Tink Nathan camo. jeans to a girl in college.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 05, 2025, 09:22:33 AM
This is also good to have around for Carnivore snacks. You probably need a slicer and a dehydrator but worthy investments IMHO. I cold-smoked this before dehydrating. Making your own save a ton of money.
These have no preservatives and I like mine slight underdone so they still have some chewyness, so I keep it in the freezer and take out a few pieces every day for snacks. It's so dry it thaws in about 5 min.
Carnivore can be more work cooking instead of buying garbage off the shelf. Cost? It appears to cost more. I haven't made a deep analysis, but I wonder if its a wash not buying all the other crap I used to. I don't buy lots of stuff anymore like: beer, snacks, chips, icecream, bread, delivery pizza, eating out (eating out is such a pain on Carnivore you just give up and home cook), sodas ,etc. Might be a wash though over all.
Eggs are stupid high right now, but still maybe the cheapest protein you can buy.
I plan to do a lot more fishing this year, you know, purely to help with the grocery bill. ;)
If you're concerned about cost, ask your patients how much dialysis costs. :(
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: AKIron on February 05, 2025, 09:27:31 AM
Eggs don't agree with me so I rarely eat them but wife does. She'll only buy from local farms though and they are even more expensive than stores.
Farm nearby has the best Brats I've eaten. I don't even ask how much they cost.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: xanax on February 05, 2025, 09:28:51 AM
When you have diabetes, you lose body. I had no hair on my legs, arms, or chest and my scalp was thinning. In fact, one of the reasons I knew I was healing was because my body hair was coming back.
Then there were the constant upset stomachs. I spent half of the time with stomach discomfort.
The people I take to dialysis when not at dialysis are in the hospital.
Interesting. I hadn't realized body hair goes away with diabetes. A friend who was diagnosed a few years back first started noticing tingling, burning and sharp pains in her extremities (neuropathy) which is one of the classic signs. She's since been able to reduce that sharply by reducing carbs but I'd like to know what other symptoms have since diminished or disappeared since she started fighting back.
Great work, Getback. Sounds like you are living up to your nickname, gettin' back!
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 05, 2025, 09:49:27 AM
Eggs don't agree with me so I rarely eat them but wife does. She'll only buy from local farms though and they are even more expensive than stores.
Farm nearby has the best Brats I've eaten. I don't even ask how much they cost.
Have you ever tried just the yolks? The white are pretty low quality protein and seem to be where most people have sensitivities to. All the real goodness is in the yolk.
When I'm 100% at the land permanently, I plan to have chickens. I'll eat the yolks and cook up the whites and feed that back to the layers. If it's cooked they don't associate it with the eggs they lay so they won't be tempted to start seeing their eggs as food.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: AKIron on February 05, 2025, 10:26:33 AM
I haven't tried just the yolks. I have found that the small farm raised chickens produce eggs I can tolerate more easily.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Drano on February 05, 2025, 02:04:32 PM
Got diagnosed about 10 years ago. Not really symptomatic. Felt great. Not sleepy or dehydrated. Was a bit overweight at about 230. Fatherhood didn't give me time for swinmming laps like I used to. I did have this raging infection in my knee out of nowhere. Thought I had a splinter or something. Got some meds and it went away--until the scrip ran out when it roared back with a vengeance. Whole leg started turning red. Scared me! Couldn't get to my doc til the next day so I went to the ER, which I don't do. They took about a gallon of blood for testing. Not really, just seemed like it. Kept me overnight. Next morning they asked me how long did I know I was diabetic? Like 2 seconds! My numbers then were 11.7 and 319. Shocked I didn't feel anything other than this infection. Had been at a wedding that weekend and drank all the Sam's Oktoberfest there was. Felt fine. But here I was in the hospital.
Stayed there for about 10 days on high dose antibiotics to kill the infection. Hit me with insulin every day to get my numbers back down. Doc came in and drained my knee the next day. I was all numbed up but man it looked like it really felt good! Lot of goo came out! I had, not MRSA but the next level down, think that's MSSA. Bad but not so bad as if I hadn't come in. Was stuck in a private room with a nice view and nurses that looked so good even my wife had to say--these girls are really pretty. I hadn't noticed! LOL. Usually she says--there's nothing pretty about her. To which I usually say the same thing hehe. End of my stay they put in a pic line with a pump to carry around with more antibiotics for another couple of weeks. Infection cleared.
What they told me about it was that little infection just went nuts chowing down on my now rocket fuel filled blood! Back under control, I went back to work. Been on a couple of diabetic meds since. No needles. Weight is down to 200. Can't seem to get a 1 in front of my weight but beyond cutting a lot of crap out of my diet I'm not doing anything special. Would love to go back to swimming laps but some group--the swim team <eye roll>--has the good hours. Bastids! In my current job I get plently of walking in. Campus is a great place for that. Now my wife, who tends to live on Belvitas and hummingbird water! If this ever happened to her it'd be the end of the world! They'd cut off her whole food supply!
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Eagler on February 05, 2025, 02:15:21 PM
How tall are you guys? Over 6'6"?
You realize 5' 9" 170lbs is overweight right?
https://www.health.harvard.edu/bmi-calculator
Eagler
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: AKIron on February 05, 2025, 04:56:04 PM
You wanna die from... nothing?
Seriously though when I was young I figured every day over age 70 was borrowed. Now that I am 70 I know every day is borrowed regardless of age.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: icepac on February 05, 2025, 05:06:39 PM
Six five 190 pounds.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 05, 2025, 05:11:19 PM
6'2" 164lb. edit: wife just measured me with my shoes off: 6'1.5". damn
The BMI measurement also tells us Derrick Henry, running back for Baltimore at 6'2" 247lb is obese. The guy is an absolute specimen so take BMI with a mountain of Morton's.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: xanax on February 05, 2025, 06:00:39 PM
I care less about when I die than about how sickly and decrepit I am when I die. Health-span is more important to me than life-span.
Hopefully I will remain mobile, vibrant, feeling good right up to the point I just die in my sleep. :D
Not sure where Hunter S. Thompson falls on this:
“Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!”
Hunter S. Thompson
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 05, 2025, 06:08:01 PM
“Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!”
Hunter S. Thompson
That would be the ideal, if you knew how long your were going to live.
Sadly, a lot of people mis-time that and end up thoroughly used up, sickly, and worn out and still have 10 years to limp along in diapers miserable and in pain on a walker the last decade of their life.
Timing is everything. ;)
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: xanax on February 05, 2025, 06:15:37 PM
That would be the ideal, if you knew how long your were going to live.
Sadly, a lot of people mis-time that and end up thoroughly used up, sickly, and worn out and still have 10 years to limp along in diapers miserable and in pain on a walker the last decade of their life.
Timing is everything. ;)
Yup, he knew exactly how long he was gonna live right down to the second. So there is that but I agree with you.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: DmonSlyr on February 05, 2025, 06:46:28 PM
I prefer the old wisdom of gangster rap.
"Lifes a bish and then ya die, that's why you play Aces High cuz you never know when you gonna go". :devil
No matter how many guns you have, how much you prep for total disaster, how well you know health, ect. You could die of a stroke that night. Happened to a truther and hard core prepper acquaintance I knew.. still in shock over that one.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: The Fugitive on February 05, 2025, 10:20:28 PM
Can we please stay on track with this thread! It has been very inspirational and has a lot of information many people can learn by.
Please follow rule #1...... dont be a dick.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: AKIron on February 05, 2025, 10:53:56 PM
Interesting. I hadn't realized body hair goes away with diabetes. A friend who was diagnosed a few years back first started noticing tingling, burning and sharp pains in her extremities (neuropathy) which is one of the classic signs. She's since been able to reduce that sharply by reducing carbs but I'd like to know what other symptoms have since diminished or disappeared since she started fighting back.
Great work, Getback. Sounds like you are living up to your nickname, gettin' back!
Some people don't experience any noticeable symptoms. I hurt so bad I thought I had leukemia. My joints hurt, my muscles hurt, and I had neuropathy. When I went to the doctor, I was wandering how many months I had to live. I also was retaining a bunch of water. My ankles were swollen. When you lose water weight that's a sign that inflammation is subsiding. All of these ailments are gone.
One thing that I've noticed is that almost every diabetes patient suffers from depression. Sugar affects the brain. Once cured you will often here them boast of their mental clarity.
"Gettin' Back" hehe
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Getback on February 06, 2025, 04:07:23 AM
First, I'm impressed with the knowledge that many of you have on nutrition. It's refreshing!
I've dieted in the past losing 85 lbs. and another time losing 65 lbs. I gained it all back and then some. When my doctor suggested I cut carbs and sugar a light went off. Could that be the key?! Turns out it was. I actually had given up on dieting.
I now say if you're starving yourself, you have already failed. I eat until sated. I do fast at times but, that's after a large carnivore meal. I may not be hungry for up to 2 days. If you want to beat diabetes you have to fast to get that fat out of your liver.
For the first time in my adult life, I have no love handles. I'm still considered obese by only 8 pounds. I was morbidly obese with a BMI of 49. I didn't like either of those words.
I quit eating by the clock. Generally, I have two meals a day (2mad) and often just one (OMAD). When you eat a bunch of carbs you will probably be hungry every couple of hours. They are not satisfying. The real reason anyone should go Keto or Carnivore is for health. Once carbs are reduced you will lose weight. Best of all its sustainable. I realized that just two weeks in.
I'm 5'11" and weigh 222. My BMI is 31.1. When it goes below 30, I'll no longer be obese. Caution on BMI, that's only a general index. It's not completely accurate.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Bizman on February 06, 2025, 06:14:47 AM
Interesting reading. And glad you've got your health issues tackled by "just" changing your eating habits.
A couple of statements made me think, though: Are carbs really that dangerous? Same with fibres. The Asian foods often contain rice or noodles and lots of vegetables, i.e. carbs and fibres and not much meat. Yet the Chinese, Korean, Indian etc. people have traditionally been very slim. Obesity has become somewhat of a problem there only after the Western fast food has gained popularity.
Another thing is that permanently reducing the daily amount of calories in any way will result weight loss especially if the starting point is high.
Further, any change in your normal diet will cause constipation. At least it does that for me.
For the record I'm 6" tall and weigh about 180 lbs which means my BMI is about 25, have been that way for the last few decades. My normal diet is yoghurt and muesli plus two slices of wholegrain rye bread for breakfast - with juice and coffee. Normally no lunch. For dinner there's usually animal protein with boiled potatoes and vegetables. And for evening snack I often take a beer or two, or some Scotch, or occasionally wine.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Getback on February 06, 2025, 06:47:42 AM
I think that is great Bizman! It's definitely not one diet fits all. For some carbs are like arsenic, it takes more for some people.
Indians (as in India) have the highest rate of Diabetes. Japan prior to WWII were expressly forbidden to eat meat. They went into war weighing 135 lbs. Vietnamese actually lost height over the years from eating mainly rice.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: The Fugitive on February 06, 2025, 07:37:28 AM
And by that I mean post something relevant instead of criticizing others.
Well my comment was on topic as to suggesting people stay on topic. Yours on the other hand was totally usless and a dick move that didnt need to be said. Welcome to the ignore list.
I love this thread!
Im 66, 6'1" 275 lbs My doctor says Im diabetic though my A1C has not gone over 7.1 ( yes I know that is on the high side) and my BMI is just over 36. I dont believe in the BMI because I'd have to have a leg cut off to even start to come close. I got out of the service in 1980 and was at 186. I got married a year later and if you saw my wedding picture you'd swear I wasnt over 150. I do take metformin, I do have aches in my hands and knees and I do have low energy (thought it was because I retired) as well as some depression. I dont eat horribly, but I cant get under 250 and even then it seems like Im starving myself.
This thread has given me something to look at, something to think about and research.
What do you guys eat in a normal day? What kind of exercise do you do weekly? I would love to lose 40-50 lbs, but just dont think I can.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Eagler on February 06, 2025, 08:32:53 AM
Scrambled eggs, oj and bacon for breakfast.. Turkey or chicken sandwich for lunch.. Whatever the wife cooks up for dinner..
Not a dessert guy but get the munchies sometimes so we have something we should not after 9pm..
Rinse and repeat..
We don't eat out unless we are forced to..
Eagler
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Bizman on February 06, 2025, 09:06:43 AM
What do you guys eat in a normal day? What kind of exercise do you do weekly? I would love to lose 40-50 lbs, but just dont think I can.
I already told what I'm eating, the animal protein is mostly pork or chicken as beef is more expensive. Carrots, cabbage, rutabaga, parsnip, broccoli, cauliflower, potatoes... This week we've had pork neck steaks over a root bed, simmered in the fireplace for several hours. Then we've had cabbage casserole including minced meat and barley. From the same ingredients I also made cabbage rolls, filling leaves with the meat mix.
As for excercise, I'm not a gym guy nor do I like jogging - running to end up being where you started from just doesn't make sense to me! Instead I do some excercizing on the bedroom floor including sit-ups and other belly strengthening stuff, pull-ups, push-ups, squats and bows. The belly stuff and squats I do 20 reps each, 30 push-ups and 5 pull-ups. That takes about 15 minutes. Six days a week because even the greatest role model ever rested on the seventh day. - Plus I don't mind using stairs instead of the elevator when visiting customers. That said, the houses here rarely exceed 6 floors. But they say that 5 floors up and down equals 500 yards of jogging so much better than nothing!
As you can see I'm a lazy excersizer but that 15 minutes in the morning makes my blood circulate and gives my muscles some basic tension that lasts for the rest of the day.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Animl-AW on February 06, 2025, 09:25:24 AM
My concept has always been,..I’m not afraid dying, I just don’t want to be maimed.
My job kept me in great shape, especially for my age. As strong and agile as a 40 yr old, in some cases more better.
I’ve been fortunate enough to learn how to eat healthy food to maintain the build and energy I exerted moving 7-28 semis trucks of gear. I average 9 miles oer day walking for setup and liad-out. I’ll have to buy a weight set now.
I’m pretty damn in tune with my body and health. But not a health freak.
Sometimes you don’t realize bad habits until its a problem. Some are unfortunate to have issues out of their control.
For all my own unfortunate experiences,…that last minute contains regrets. Do the right thing for others, be good to yourself. Stay out of the cess pool, trouble will find you without looking for it.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: The Fugitive on February 06, 2025, 11:14:35 AM
Scrambled eggs, oj and bacon for breakfast.. Turkey or chicken sandwich for lunch.. Whatever the wife cooks up for dinner..
Not a dessert guy but get the munchies sometimes so we have something we should not after 9pm..
Rinse and repeat..
We don't eat out unless we are forced to..
Eagler
I use to mix up my breakfast with oatmeal or cereal but after reading some of the info here and researching Im going to cut out that stuff and stick with eggs. I may add in some yogurt but have to watch out for sugars in those. Lunch is either some burgers or grilled chicken and a green pepper. Recently made up a batch of bean burritos and froze them so I can have one of those for lunch. Supper is steak, chicken, fish, or shrimp with a veggie or salad with rice. Wife is Italian so we use to have lots of pasta but with the kids gone I took over the cooking and she learned there are other flavors out there :D
Exercise is 30 minutes on the tread mill each day and about 15 minutes of stretches'. Im far more active in the spring/summer/fall months just keeping up the yard, but like everyone really slack off in the winter. Altho I just spent a bit over an hour shoveling the snow out of my driveway :mad:
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: icepac on February 06, 2025, 12:11:30 PM
Those 100 year olds in rural areas got there using lard.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 06, 2025, 12:21:00 PM
Those 100 year olds in rural areas got there using lard.
And demographically in the US, obesity rates exploded right at the time the low-fat trend started. They though it was best to replace natural bad fat with good sugar and magical high-fructose-corn-syrup(the blood plasma of Satan) and Frankenstein lab made oils like canola became the rage. :O
Remember when you were supposed to eat more margarine? Now those trans-fats are outlawed. :rofl
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Animl-AW on February 06, 2025, 01:28:34 PM
Those 100 year olds in rural areas got there using lard.
The whole zero fat thing is kinda stupit. The brain and other parts needs fats and oils. I wouldn’t eat lard with knife and fork, but I do cook with it. Everything, in moderation. Some people who remove all fat may be dumping IQ too.
I had diverticulitis snd colitis at the same time. Painful as a mtr… so I had to change my diet 200 times until I figure out my deep fryer caused it. They don’t know what causes it nor what makes it go away. After 1.5 yrs if process of elimination, I tossed the fryer on a guess, it never came back. But what caused it in me may be different for you. Blanket answer are kinda dangerous.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Getback on February 06, 2025, 04:46:40 PM
The whole zero fat thing is kinda stupit. The brain and other parts needs fats and oils. I wouldn’t eat lard with knife and fork, but I do cook with it. Everything, in moderation. Some people who remove all fat may be dumping IQ too.
I had diverticulitis snd colitis at the same time. Painful as a mtr… so I had to change my diet 200 times until I figure out my deep fryer caused it. They don’t know what causes it nor what makes it go away. After 1.5 yrs if process of elimination, I tossed the fryer on a guess, it never came back. But what caused it in me may be different for you. Blanket answer are kinda dangerous.
Good job there Animal! Many people don't figure it out. Sometimes doctors are not so helpful.
Fat helps your gut and brain. Eating fat doesn't affect diabetes and people of cured MS eating fatty meat. Carbs can end up in your liver if not immediately processed. Corn syrup and end up in your liver and brain. Dementia is very much affected by sugar. Does it cause it, I don't know. I know people have put it into remission by cutting out sugar.
I mostly eat beef. I do have some chicken, pork, and lamb. If I fry it using bacon grease mostly or butter. I need to learn to save my bacon grease and buy some Tallow.
A couple of days ago I bought the fattest and largest pork chop ever. It was 1.25 lbs. It was delicious! It still does not satisfy me like Beef and Lamb.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Animl-AW on February 06, 2025, 05:01:39 PM
Good job there Animal! Many people don't figure it out. Sometimes doctors are not so helpful.
Fat helps your gut and brain. Eating fat doesn't affect diabetes and people of cured MS eating fatty meat. Carbs can end up in your liver if not immediately processed. Corn syrup and end up in your liver and brain. Dementia is very much affected by sugar. Does it cause it, I don't know. I know people have put it into remission by cutting out sugar.
I mostly eat beef. I do have some chicken, pork, and lamb. If I fry it using bacon grease mostly or butter. I need to learn to save my bacon grease and buy some Tallow.
A couple of days ago I bought the fattest and largest pork chop ever. It was 1.25 lbs. It was delicious! It still does not satisfy me like Beef and Lamb.
It was a pattern that evolved. Fried food in a restaurant didn’t start anything. But fried food at home 2-3 days later bam. Takes a long time to figure it out when the reaction comes days later. Feel sorry for those who can’t figure out their trigger. I clean my new frier every time I use it now. Cuz that sht seriously sucks.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 06, 2025, 05:24:09 PM
A couple of days ago I bought the fattest and largest pork chop ever. It was 1.25 lbs. It was delicious! It still does not satisfy me like Beef and Lamb.
It seems a consensus in the Carnivore crowd that meat from ruminants is best for you on Carnivore. I occasionally do some pork and chicken but mainly beef. Beef is the most readily available ruminant for me. I can get lamb. That is a bit of an acquired taste but I eat it sometimes.
I keep trying to learn to tolerate liver and other organ meats. I did make some marinated liver skewers grilled over hardwood a while back. That wasn't half bad. IF I had to eat liver, that's how I would do it again.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Animl-AW on February 06, 2025, 05:59:27 PM
Fat helps your gut and brain. Eating fat doesn't affect diabetes and people of cured MS eating fatty meat. Carbs can end up in your liver if not immediately processed. Corn syrup and end up in your liver and brain. Dementia is very much affected by sugar. Does it cause it, I don't know. I know people have put it into remission by cutting out sugar.
The brain prefers salt way over sugar. But sugar can block salt from getting there. Some red fruits like apples can help block sugar saturation, which will allow more salt to pass. I know the brain doesn't like sugar, nor does your arteries that it can crystalize in.
Mom was an LP, wife was an RN, a GF was an RN.....it's kinda of a hex to learn all these nasty things. Seems like no matter what ya do it's wrong. Live life, just don't go overboard on anything.
I remember decades ago "bacon can cause cancer". Yet if you read the study it meant IF you consume 1lb+ per day every day. Well hell drinking a gallon of water can kill ya. Who eats 1lb+ of bacon every day? Oh that's right, they needed to make chicken more popular for marketing.
Face it humans are gluttons, and like animals (all puns intended) if it's in front of them they'll eat it, even if they explode doing it.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Oldman731 on February 06, 2025, 07:55:50 PM
I mostly eat beef. I do have some chicken, pork, and lamb. If I fry it using bacon grease mostly or butter. I need to learn to save my bacon grease and buy some Tallow.
This is all interesting, but...aren't you walking into a heart attack with all that cholesterol...?
- oldman (whose great grandmother poured bacon fat onto her breakfast cereal)
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 06, 2025, 08:19:10 PM
This is all interesting, but...aren't you walking into a heart attack with all that cholesterol...?
- oldman (whose great grandmother poured bacon fat onto her breakfast cereal)
Around 1980 is when the low-fat craze started in the US. What the fraken-food industry found was that if you take out healthy fats, food taste like crap so you can hide it by adding tons of sugar and call it "Low-Fat!" And the cheapest "sugar" for highest profit is high-fructose-corn-syrup. You might as well be eating rat posion.
Around 1980 is when the low-fat craze started in the US. What the fraken-food industry found was that if you take out healthy fats, food taste like crap so you can hide it by adding tons of sugar and call it "Low-Fat!" And the cheapest "sugar" for highest profit is high-fructose-corn-syrup. You might as well be eating rat posion.
Our bodies didn't evolve to absorb these toxins.
Get the picture?
I get that sugar is bad for you. My mother taught us that 70+ years ago, and as a before-fluoride kid who knew the panic of the sound of the tooth drill, I grasped the lesson. So far as I know, red meat is still full of cholesterol, therefore bad for your heart. Has that changed? Have statins eliminated the threat? Not being judgmental, I'm just curious.
- oldman
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 06, 2025, 09:59:17 PM
I get that sugar is bad for you. My mother taught us that 70+ years ago, and as a before-fluoride kid who knew the panic of the sound of the tooth drill, I grasped the lesson. So far as I know, red meat is still full of cholesterol, therefore bad for your heart. Has that changed? Have statins eliminated the threat? Not being judgmental, I'm just curious.
Sigh. I've had some really painful life experience around trying to convince even loved ones of what I have learned over twenty year of obsessing over this stuff. That's why I have made a rule about only ever discussing this stuff with fellow travelers who have already made the decision on their own to follow a low carb\keto\carnivore path, and never ever again try and convince anyone of anything nutritionally related. So I not trying to be evasive to be dique. I made a pact with myself. :rolleyes:
I'll say this though, the current science (no study pre-about 2010 should be trusted fully...most of which was sponsored by big sugar or the fraken-food industry and utterly fraudulent BTW, Ancel Keys was a son of Satan and a mass murderer I hope he rots in Hell) dietary cholesterol has virtually no effect on serum cholesterol in vast majority of people. There is a very small population of hyper-responder that it MAY have SOME effect on.
Very very few doctors over the age of 30 have virtually any knowledge of nutrition. Maybe they had 4 hrs of nutritional study in their entire curriculum. Most of that was based on utter fraudulent information decades old and the science of nutrition has advance exponentially over the last 25 years. Sadly the situation only improves as the population of Boomer doctors die off.
Cholesterol has extremely vital role in the human body. One of which is as a first responder to cellular damage. Coronary heart disease is largely caused when cholesterol particle adhere to the rough surface of damages arteries wall. Think of the damage walls as having a roughed up surface that causes the cholesterol to stick and then start a clog. But the root cause isn't the cholesterol. It is the damaged arterial wall. The damage is caused by glycation. A side effect of excess blood sugar.
Think of cholesterol as a fireman responding to an emergency. You drive by a 4 alarm fire and see all these firemen hanging around. To assume the firemen must have been the cause is the analog to our thinking about cholesterol and heart disease over the last 30-40 years. Does that make logical sense to you?
That said, I am not a doctor and you should follow the advice of your licensed medical professional. God help you.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Getback on February 07, 2025, 02:49:03 AM
Ansel Keyes was the one who came up with the idea that Cholesterol was bad. He did a 22-country study but only used the 7 countries that loosely fit his hypothesis. According to one doctor the book Keyes wrote was scientific gibberish.
I do not worry about Cholesterol; I concern myself with carbs. As a side note I don't worry about calories either because I know I'm heating very healthy.
I would suggest, if interested, research Cholesterol on YouTube. There's quite a bit on it.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Eagler on February 07, 2025, 08:02:52 AM
Exercise is the key..
When you woke up before the sun and worked in the field farming or chased cattle until sunset, you could eat just about everything and you stayed healthy as you burned it off..
Now we eat big macs and click our phones and mice for our daily "work"..no problems there...
Eagler
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Animl-AW on February 07, 2025, 09:12:16 AM
I get that sugar is bad for you. My mother taught us that 70+ years ago, and as a before-fluoride kid who knew the panic of the sound of the tooth drill, I grasped the lesson. So far as I know, red meat is still full of cholesterol, therefore bad for your heart. Has that changed? Have statins eliminated the threat? Not being judgmental, I'm just curious.
- oldman
The way I understand it is eating meat helped humans grow larger brains.
I found in my medical journey above is how long red meat is in your gut. Cholesterol will dissipate if you give it time to. Red meat can stay in your gut over 1 day. If you eat red meat every day you’re not giving it a break, it builds up. Some foods help get rid if it.
Red meat can also make you feel sluggish.
Best to alternate diet 1-3 days s week eat salad, seafood or chicken. Easier to digest, gives time for beef to clear out. I tend to feel mire energetic in revolving diet.
If the Dr says take a beak from beef your cholesterol will drop.
Again good cholesterol and bad cholesterol.
It still comes down to everything in moderation. If you don’t give your body a break ffrom anything you’ll have problems,
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Bizman on February 07, 2025, 09:41:10 AM
Ansel Keyes was the one who came up with the idea that Cholesterol was bad. He did a 22-country study but only used the 7 countries that loosely fit his hypothesis. According to one doctor the book Keyes wrote was scientific gibberish.
I do not worry about Cholesterol; I concern myself with carbs. As a side note I don't worry about calories either because I know I'm heating very healthy.
I would suggest, if interested, research Cholesterol on YouTube. There's quite a bit on it.
My previous doctor told me he was concerned about my cholesterol level and at some point we may have to consider medication. I was at 225. Literally at the lowest point of measured all cause mortality.
I just rolled my eyes and said, "OK Boomer." :D
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: fuzeman on February 07, 2025, 10:35:26 AM
First thread I can remember that was 5 pages long and I read it all. Great information!! Some call dementia type 3 diabetes. About the same time, late 2023, I was also diagnosed with type II diabetes but am not overweight. 5’11” and about 165. Still need my first colonoscopy at 66 with a positive cologuard but my two lower friends, Hemi and Roidy have some blood release when they fight. Trying to learn more and get healthier. I’ve never been real active and restarted exercising some and it feels good. Used to eat more eggs but got away from that and I’ve restarted eating them often if not everyday. So much to learn! Have to get into fasting more. Glad your doing well Getback, and others on the journey too.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Eagler on February 07, 2025, 12:19:57 PM
Just got back from the cardiologist..aok! :aok
Cholesterol was 116, BP good too!
Hoping not to see him again until February 2026..
Eagler
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: xanax on February 07, 2025, 02:26:16 PM
I'll try to keep this short. In early February of 2002 I had knee surgery and developed a blood clot in the calf below that knee. It broke lose and lodged in my lungs giving me a bilateral pulmonary embolism. I literally dropped over dead at work. Luckily, I worked at trauma hospital and they were able to revive me with a menagerie of drugs including TPA (clot buster) and CPR-including being defibrillated twice while I was conscious! Horrific pain right there. I was then transported to the Intensive Care Unit for an 18 day visit. I weighed 334lb at the time.
That story itself should have been enough to motivate me but it wasn't, it was something way more stupid.
Of course I knew most of the ICU staff and was friends with a number of them. One evening a nurse whom I was friendly with had to wipe my rear end for me because I couldn't reach as I wasn't allowed out of bed, IV lines and wires taped to my chest and mostly I was too damn fat! I felt horrible for her and I wanted a stroke to take me out right then and there. Thankfully, she was a trooper and friend and literally thought nothing of it as she was a true professional as well. To this day, I redden with embarrassment when I talk to her and she gives me good-natured grief. Minutes after that humiliation I decided I'd change my life and get healthy when I got home. I never wanted to be that helpless or be a patient ever again.
I got home on the 22nd hooked to a bottle of oxygen, a shiny new CPAP machine ( they noticed I had sleep apnea during my stay) and an old man cane. The unopened can of chewing tobacco was still there waiting for me on the counter. I hadn't had a dip since the ER nurse had scooped the last one out of my lip while they were trying to get a heart rhythm back. I put a big fat dip in my lip, hobbled to the back deck and threw the can over the fence into the field behind the house. I never touched the stuff again after doing it for 21 years. That was hard, real hard but it was something I wanted to do.
I have friend who'd lost a bunch of weight doing the Atkins low carb diet. He gave me the book while recovering and I decided I'd try it after the pulmonologist decided I didn't need bottled oxygen anymore. I shuffled into his office after a week at home and he took me off the stuff. I asked him when I could stop using the CPAP machine. He stopped looking at the images of my lungs and told me, "you are way too fat and you will always need the machine if you remain so fat." That stung and I truly wanted to dot his eye and maybe go key his BMW but I knew he was right and a few hours later began to appreciate his brutal honesty. I appreciate it to this day and have told him so. He tells me most patients are not so appreciative. Too bad.
On March 1st 2002, I went all in on the Atkins diet, no carbs for 2 weeks as induction. I dropped 16lb (mostly water) in that 2 weeks and decided to stick with the induction phase which is limiting carbohydrates to under 20gm per day. That's a tough go for a carb addict like myself. No pizza, pasta, potatoes, bread, candy, Pepsi, beer, beans, Doritos...fricken Doritos! I used to take a bag of those, dump a bunch of tabasco in the bag, shake it up then play Air Warrior until gone. I was done with all of it. I started gorging on salami, cheeses, eggs, bacon....lots of bacon, beef and canned tuna. I lost 33 pounds that first month. I began gorging less and less as protein and fat are very satiating. I'd get full pretty fast eating this way-unlike carbs where I'd never get full. There was always room for a 2nd or third helping and always room for desert. anyhow I was down to just eating until I was full before work and eating until full when I got home from my 12 hour shift. I stuck with it and started exercising. I bought a cheap stationary bike and rode it daily. It had an odometer on it and I would try to go further each day. I rode it until it disintegrated under me one day so I bought a beefy mountain bike and started riding outside. I taco'd the rims pretty quick going off curbs with my still pretty heavy wide body but the hook was set for my current addiction to cycling. The weight was still plummeting and people were noticing. My scrubs were looser fitting and they no longer looked like over-stuffed sausage casings. My shoes kept getting too wide for my feet, I didn't need to wear a shirt under scrubs to absorb sweat anymore. I even gladly trotted up and down the stairs of the 6-story hospital on my lunch breaks. The elevators were glad to see me go. I even got off of CPAP after 11 months! I got home, grabbed the machine and took it to the garage. I proceeded to smash it with a sledge and it felt great but was a dumb move as I could have sold it for a nice amount.
Smash cut to late May of 2004, I was down 120lb. I was still not eating carbs and now was a member of a local cycling club doing group rides and climbing all the high mountain passes of California and Nevada. I eventually got down to 158lb at one point. That's more than half my original weight.
All the while, my high cholesterol, high blood pressure, high resting heart rate, triglycerides....all the bad ones were long gone and replaced with good numbers. Heartburn? Gone. Aches and pains from inflammation? Gone. Depression Gone? Brain fog? Gone. All of this started happening within weeks after cutting carbs out.
I'm still a carbohydrate addict so I don't eat them. Every once in a while, I'd try to reintroduce them to my diet but the wheels would come off in short order. I guess for me it's like a heroin addict staying clean except Saturdays and holidays....It just ain't gonna work.
I occasionally go have Mexican or Chinese food with my wife. She has no problems with food and it's nice taking her out for things like that. I kinda eat around the beans, rice and whatnot. I'll have the occasional margarita of course.
Last October a drunk driver T-boned my father and his wife at over 100mph, killing them both instantly. I went off the rails a bit. He had just fully recovered from prostate cancer and was in incredibly good health for an 80yr old. He was still rotating the tires on his truck by himself and climbing on the roof of his house to adjust his TV antenna in the days before he died. One of the last conversations I had with him he said "it was never too late to feel good again" while referring to his cancer free proclamation from his Urologist. I took that to heart and jumped right back on my new ways.
It's never too late to feel good again.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Eagler on February 07, 2025, 02:34:21 PM
Glad you are doing better xanax
A pulmonary embolism killed my mom a week before her 52nd birthday back in 1989..month b4 my 30th bd
If you don't have your health, you have nothing
Eagler
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: xanax on February 07, 2025, 02:53:44 PM
All the while, my high cholesterol, high blood pressure, high resting heart rate, triglycerides....all the bad ones were long gone and replaced with good numbers. Heartburn? Gone. Aches and pains from inflammation? Gone. Depression Gone? Brain fog? Gone. All of this started happening within weeks after cutting carbs out.
Yeah, but, but, but.....what about the long term dangers of that diet!?!?!?!?!?!
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Eagler on February 07, 2025, 03:20:29 PM
Yeah, but, but, but.....what about the long term dangers of that diet!?!?!?!?!?!
Well, I'll qualify and quantify by pointing out I'm only one data point.
However, the data is out there and it's starting to recognized by younger healthcare professionals. The nutrition aspect of healthcare wasn't taught much in medical school in the past. Treatment rather than prevention was the lean-in it seems. Use the Big Pharma and Big Food sponsored studies and literature as guidelines and repeat those findings to the patients was it. My current doc is pretty young and is all in. "Keep doing what you're doing."
I'd never discount genetic factors and other potential inhibitors to low carb diet/lifestyles. I'd give it a solid month of faithful adherence and see how it goes feeling-wise and numbers-wise. If the LDL's and triglycerides are off the charts, ask your doc to help you and adjust. Some folks are predisposed to metabolic states that can't be helped with diets such as this one but there's always to modify and adjust.
I do believe lowering carbs would help most folks. We, as humans, never consumed this much sugar until very recently. Again, go look at pics and films of your family and other folks walking around in the 50's and 60's. Then put those aside and do the same with pics and vids of folks walking around in the 90's up to today. I don't need to point out the differences, they're in plain sight.
I won't even go into how quick one can eliminate NAFLD (non-alcoholic fatty liver disease) from their life with low carbs and exercise on top of all the other benefits related to lowering carbs. Sending diabetes into remission as Getback achieved for crying out loud!. Instead, I'll leave this physician's channel that friend pointed out to me awhile ago. I like him because he's been "there" and doesn't talk down to anyone and you can really tell he wants to help folks.
https://www.youtube.com/@KenDBerryMD
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 07, 2025, 04:48:24 PM
I'm kinda partial to Steak and Butter Gal. No, not for the obvious reasons. Well, maybe for a little of the obvious reasons. :x
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 07, 2025, 05:01:40 PM
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 07, 2025, 05:13:24 PM
Mikhaila's story is an example of someone who would probably benefit staying on Carnivore permanently.
For others, if you didn't have serious health issues, what might be more sustainable is a clean, paleo\Keto life style most of the time with periodic therapeutic stints of Carnivore.
That is probably my long term goal once I get back working on all cylinders. I'd like to get to clean paleo\Keto diet for 9 months of the year and Jan, Feb, Mar do pure Carnivore and then back to clean paleo\Keto. I think that would be a good compromise, but there are definitely people with deeper metabolic dysregulation that may need more extreme Carnivore.
Or if you just have a lot of initial healing needed you might need longer Carnivore therapeutic cycle at first to get back to good health and then relax it a little to mere Keto.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: AKIron on February 07, 2025, 06:03:08 PM
Humans are omnivores. Seems we do better with more carni and less herbi imo.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 07, 2025, 07:12:28 PM
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 07, 2025, 07:18:47 PM
I made something similar to this and actually was able to eat the liver, which given how much I dislike liver, was quite a feat. I'm going to try and tweak this some more and see if I can get to like it. Liver is a super food.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Getback on February 07, 2025, 08:07:16 PM
I watch all of these folks. They are great!
Xanax, sorry for your loss.
Oatmeal is poisonous!
I eat lots of meat. The cool thing about meat is your body can process it better than anything else. Meat has the GLP1 effect.
It's fatty meat that heals the brain.
If you want to hear something funny, 20 years ago I posted a self-made meme. I took a picture of a billboard that read 1 in 6 people go to bed hungry. I captioned it, "Duh, that's because we're on a diet!"
In spite of people showing charts on obesity rates so many people derided me for such a post. It got so bad that Skuzzy deleted it. Now look at us today.
BTW, I don't blame people for their obesity. We've all been sold a bad bill of goods by Big Food, Big Pharma, and the government.
When I tell people that I have reversed diabetes they exclaim, "You can reverse diabetes!"
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Tumor on February 07, 2025, 09:02:13 PM
For you Carni's... this is my go to snack. If you told me it was all I was allowed for the rest of my life.... I think I'd be ok with it.
I eat lots of meat. The cool thing about meat is your body can process it better than anything else. Meat has the GLP1 effect.
It's fatty meat that heals the brain.
If you want to hear something funny, 20 years ago I posted a self-made meme. I took a picture of a billboard that read 1 in 6 people go to bed hungry. I captioned it, "Duh, that's because we're on a diet!"
In spite of people showing charts on obesity rates so many people derided me for such a post. It got so bad that Skuzzy deleted it. Now look at us today.
BTW, I don't blame people for their obesity. We've all been sold a bad bill of goods by Big Food, Big Pharma, and the government.
When I tell people that I have reversed diabetes they exclaim, "You can reverse diabetes!"
Thanks, Getback.
Yup, mostly meat here too. I'd say my diet is closer to Ketovore than anything else as I'll eat a nice Caesar salad or Cobb salad without croutons. I'll even eat that foul weed that is broccoli...drizzled in melted cheese of course. Brussels sprouts done up in bacon grease and a spritz of wine vinegar is pretty good. But yeah, mostly meat with beef being primary. I'm really hooked on try-tip and skirt steak right now. sorry, Trips but liver is out. My dad was a butcher for 45 years and he loved that stuff and would bring it home all the damn time. My mom would make liver and onions for him or he'd mix it with scrambled eggs. Just the smell of liver sends me running. Maybe if someone prepared it out of my smell range and served it, I'd give it a go but for now it's nay all the way.
I don't get after fat people, I've been there. I've known guys who were fit that went after fat people and then you see them 5 years later and they're now fat. I don't go after them either. It's tough to stay away from it and good on ya if you can.
I used to go to parties and whatnot and folks would wonder why I wasn't eating the cake or hitting the chips. I'd kind of explain my diet and much of the time I'd get "you're gonna die eating that way or " a sliver or two of cake ain't gonna kill ya'" etc. I'd just politely nod and work on getting the subject changed. Nowadays I just say my stomach is bothering me or "I had a late lunch" and the like. If someone is genuinely interested in my eating, I'll gladly explain what I'm doing. More and more it seems, people are genuinely interested. A sliver or two of cake is like a bindle of heroin for a heroin addict in my case. It's hard getting back on the rail if I fall off. My will is weak.
You guys have posted some good vids and stuff I can refer folks to when they ask...except the liver one, ha!
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: xanax on February 07, 2025, 09:41:56 PM
You can also get liver and other organ meats dehydrated and packed into gel caps. Seemed a bit pricey, but....
But, I used to love authentic Cajun dirty rice and it has ground liver in it and I never realized that, so it might be possible to hide it.
I've heard of people using very small amounts of ground liver mixed in with ground meat and spice up so you could hardly taste it.
Trivia, I read somewhere that when the plains Indians make a bison kill, the first thing they would do is cut out the livers and cube them up and every man, woman, child in the tribe got a piece right away. They knew how powerful it is.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Animl-AW on February 08, 2025, 09:10:49 AM
I would not get my info from YT videos, even if they are right. Most times they are not. Not dependable.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Tumor on February 08, 2025, 09:36:28 AM
Oh man. I'm gonna try some of sliced hot chorizo packs. Thanks for the link.
The Picante Chorizo rocks... the regular does too, but hot is always better. Sometimes, there's little bits of hard stuff in it, which would be scary, but it's so damn good I don't care.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 08, 2025, 10:36:23 AM
The Picante Chorizo rocks... the regular does too, but hot is always better. Sometimes, there's little bits of hard stuff in it, which would be scary, but it's so damn good I don't care.
Yeah I've had some deli salami's like that. I'm going to try that.
On Carnivore I start to miss stuff that is salty and crunchy. These are a nice occasional treat too:
I do try and limit myself with dairy on Carnivore. I'll eat cheese, but kinda treat it like a treat or as a topping and not just eat chunks of cheese. But I do love me some blue-cheese compound butter on my rib-eyes.
Also, as a side note, mushrooms are an interesting edge case.
They are not a plant. They don't have any of the problematic plant defense chemicals. There is a tiny trace amount of carbs but in the amounts I eat doesn't seem to cause me any problems. In fact, nutritionally they are closer to animal than plant so I will indulge. I love mushrooms sautéed in Kerry-Gold as a side.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Baloo on February 08, 2025, 10:48:47 AM
Haha I just ordered some parmesan cheese to make crisps, Trips. I actually want to try these mushroom cheese crisps...basically same as making crisps, except put slices of mushroom on top with room in between...cut the cheese after baking :ahand and enjoy!
Also...anyone heard of autophagy fasting? Might be worth a Google. I've worked my self up to 72hr fast and I can tell you my body is definitely healing.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 08, 2025, 11:02:31 AM
Haha I just ordered some parmesan cheese to make crisps, Trips. I actually want to try these mushroom cheese crisps...basically same as making crisps, except put slices of mushroom on top with room in between...cut the cheese after baking :ahand and enjoy!
Also...anyone heard of autophagy fasting? Might be worth a Google. I've worked my self up to 72hr fast and I can tell you my body is definitely healing.
Interesting. Goona try that.
I do try and fit a 24 hr fast in at least once a month. I've done up to a 5 day but that felt excessive. Once you are well fat-adapted, you can blow through a 24 hour fast and not even notice it. I found the best way for me is, I eat my usual "Lupper" around 3-4 pm. Then just fast until the next days Lupper. Most of the fast occurs over night and neither day do I have to go to bed hungry. Once or twice a month like that is a nothing burger. I could almost do it accidentally when I am fat-adapted.
And yes, I don't fast for weight loss. I fast for autophagy. If anyone wants to learn more, I suggest looking at the work of Jason Fung and Valter Longo.
:salute
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Getback on February 08, 2025, 11:06:00 AM
Haha I just ordered some parmesan cheese to make crisps, Trips. I actually want to try these mushroom cheese crisps...basically same as making crisps, except put slices of mushroom on top with room in between...cut the cheese after baking :ahand and enjoy!
Also...anyone heard of autophagy fasting? Might be worth a Google. I've worked my self up to 72hr fast and I can tell you my body is definitely healing.
72 hours is pretty darn good! I've done 48 hours after a 40 ounce ribeye. The first time I fasted it was for 18 hours and I said never again. Then two days later I was fasting again. You can do that when you are loaded with protein.
Yes, I've heard of Autophagy. I believe that's where the body utilizes its own tissue. It helps to get rid of extra skin. From what I've heard your skin replaces itself every 90 days so replace it with healthy skin.
My DIL sent a before and after picture of me. One picture looked like a balloon holding a beer and the other looked like the Crypt Keeper. Can't say I like either one but, the Crypt Keeper was much more healthy.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 08, 2025, 11:37:55 AM
Yes, I've heard of Autophagy. I believe that's where the body utilizes its own tissue. It helps to get rid of extra skin. From what I've heard your skin replaces itself every 90 days so replace it with healthy skin.
Autophagy is an amazing piece of metabolic magic.
There is some evidence that when losing weight, bouts of fasting and use up that unneed skin and reduce loose skin problem. That doesn't seem to occur just from long term caloric restriction. That is not proven but there are lots of antecedal reports of that effect.
But wait! There is MORE!!! :rofl
The human body is amazingly clever. The body doesn't just blindly eat it's cells. It has mechanisms to detect weak, old, and damaged cells and the autophagy goes after them first. Those are also the kind of cells that are most likely to go cancerous. Awesome to have a natural mechanism to shed them before they become a problem.
Another amazing effect is during a fast you blood volume will decrease measurably. Not to a dangerous point, but it does do it. It is shed any red\white cells that aren't 100% optimal preferentially. And after the fast? Magic. The body up-regulates the expression of stem cells and quickly produces brand new healthy blood cells to replace them. It's like some creepy old rich guy getting blood transfusions from healthy 16 year olds. ;)
Also it just plain gives your digestive tract a chance to rest. The intestines can't process food AND repair at the same time. Some repair happens over night. A fast just allows to the digestive tract a chance to dedicate 100% of it's energy to repair for an extended time.
Here is my personal theory. Humans evolved for a couple of hundred thousands years as Hunter-Gatherers. The Neolithic revolution was just yesterday in comparison. Hunting, you don't always get a kill every day. It was perfectly natural to go a day or two between kills.
I think the human body is smart. Instead of that being a problem, it has figured out how to see that as a feature not a bug. I think it uses the fast period as a chance to repair and clean out the deadwood. Then during the re-feed it up regulates stem cells and replaces all the old crap it got rid of with brand new shiny cells.
I think of it like a metabolic pump. Fast/Feed. Fast/Feed. You need both strokes for the pump to function optimally.
$0.02.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Bizman on February 08, 2025, 02:08:28 PM
That autophagy thing sounds marvelous!
Speaking about "healthy" food, back in 1956 Amos Milburn sang about French Fried Potatoes and Ketchup as "it's amazing how the kid's are getting calories and kicks eating" said nutritients. And in the early 1960's Chuck Berry sang that "The coolerator was crammed with TV dinners and ginger ale". Was that the start of the American airline companies to take action to people not fitting their seats?
Not saying that the pre-freezer diet of heavily salted meat was good for your arteries, though.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Baloo on February 08, 2025, 05:56:06 PM
Every time you attempt a fast, it gets easier as Getback noted. Half of it is just psychological and habit. Make a deal with your self ahead of time. Just give yourself permission that if you truly start to feel bad (persistent nausea or dizziness, or bad headache), then just stop this time and try again another time. Every attempt gets your body more used to it. It's not a test of your manliness.
Here is the advice I'd give based on my fasting experience:
1. First get fat-adapted. If will make it soooo much less painful (assuming you have some body fat..for most Americans, that is not a problem). Low carb or keto or Carnivore. Whatever works for you. I'd say get fat-adapted for at least a month before trying fasting. It is not required, but it will be a lot less stress and pain.
2. Hunger doesn't increase forever. It comes in waves. It increases, but then subsides again. It is controlled by the spike release of the hormone ghrelin base on your past eating patterns. It's just reminder "Hey, it's that time of day we usually eat. Don't forget." After a while that hormone release fades until the next normal eating window and then you will get another wave. Understanding that it is an impermanent sensation that won't just keep increasing and increasing and don't be afraid of it, is half the battle. Don't panic when you feel the sensation. Ever go to bed kinda hungry but wake in the morning and not be hungry anymore?
3. stay busy.
4. Stay hydrated.
5. Supplement electrolytes and micro nutrients if you want.
6. Black coffee or green teas are fine. Nothing with milk or sugar obviously.
7. Arrange your fasting window so that as much of it occurs while you sleep as possible. That's why the 24 hr fast is not so bad. 1/3 of that window is spent asleep.
8. On a longer fast or first time, careful how you re-enter feeding. On a longer fast, there are some risks if you just go hog wild immediately after the fast. With a 24 hour fast there is little danger but why risk it. See "Refeeding syndrome". When I was first starting out after a fast I'd start with a big cup of bone broth and then wait an hour or two, then have an egg or something not too crazy. Wait a couple of hours and then resume your normal schedule.
9. Listen to your body. A little hunger is normal. If you really feel crappy, don't try and muscle through it. Just stop and try again in two week.
10. After any fast longer than 24 hours, its best to wait at least two week before trying another. Remember the pump. The refeed is as important as the fast to get the full effects. A good healthy refeed is what signals the body it is safe to start producing stem cells and begin recovery.
I'm not a doctor, but that's how I do it. If you got serious health issue, consult a doctor first. If you are taking medications especially like anything that effects glucose, BP, talk to a doctor first. In general it's probably a good a idea get a check up first and tell them what you plan and see if they have a real reason why that would be risky for your situation.
$0.02
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Baloo on February 08, 2025, 08:12:31 PM
Brilliant sir, I'd also like to note breaking your fast with clean, organic food (bone broth, kimchi, saurkraut, cocoyo) is almost essential or all that work is for naught.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: xanax on February 08, 2025, 08:29:36 PM
Brilliant sir, I'd also like to note breaking your fast with clean, organic food (bone broth, kimchi, saurkraut, cocoyo) is almost essential or all that work is for naught.
So if I'm readin' you correctly, A family-sized bag of Doritos with Tabasco shaken into the bag along with a rack of Pale Ales and 2 boxes of Girl Scout thin mints is a no? Just asking for me from 2001.
Some spicy Kimchi sounds really good right now, actually.
Thanks for the fasting chart, btw. I do 18 hour fasts 4-5 times a week, I think I can up my game pretty easy.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Animl-AW on February 09, 2025, 03:59:47 AM
Didn’t read everything. The problem with fasting is it makes metabolism slow down. If you’re just cleansing the body no problem. But gain more weight when ya first eat again. And thats the key to weight loss, keeping it up. A person that snacks all day will lose more weight than someone who eats a big meal, but may have eaten more.
If you fast for 2-4 days your body starts eating itself and that can hard on things like the liver. A lot of vitamins is hard on the liver., digesting a little of medications can too.
Basically you’re putting it through a yo-yo. Its nit a great weight loss program.
Moderation
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: xanax on February 09, 2025, 04:27:02 AM
Didn’t read everything. The problem with fasting is it makes metabolism slow down. If you’re just cleansing the body no problem. But gain more weight when ya first eat again. And thats the key to weight loss, keeping it up. A person that snacks all day will lose more weight than someone who eats a big meal, but may have eaten more.
If you fast for 2-4 days your body starts eating itself and that can hard on things like the liver. A lot of vitamins is hard on the liver., digesting a little of medications can too.
Basically you’re putting it through a yo-yo. Its nit a great weight loss program.
Moderation
It's intermittent fasting and autophagy that was being talked about here-not the long, sustained Bobby Sands hunger strike fasts. Google "intermittent fasting and metabolism" to see the numerous studies and publication from NIH, Harvard and the like.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Eagler on February 09, 2025, 07:52:44 AM
The chance the average American will purposely fast in his or her lifetime these days is about the same as they will walk on the moon..
Eagler
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 09, 2025, 08:10:36 AM
It's intermittent fasting and autophagy that was being talked about here-not the long, sustained Bobby Sands hunger strike fasts. Google "intermittent fasting and metabolism" to see the numerous studies and publication from NIH, Harvard and the like.
Exactly correct.
That is why short duration fasts (up to 5 days or less) is not sufficient to lower metabolism significantly. In fact may temporarily raise metabolism.
That is why short duration fasts are are better than severe long-term caloric restriction or "diets".
As long as you are reasonably healthy and have body fat available, there is no material metabolic reduction or muscle wasting.
As long as you don't have any deep underlying medical issues or complicating medication interaction, stay hydrated, have at least 5% body fat, up to a week long fast is perfectly safe and very therapeutic.
That is why the refeed cycle is important. It signals the body that, hey, that was just a temporary thing. You're safe, no need to go into starvation mode.
Trust your body. If at any point it feels wrong (not just merely challenging), then simply stop and carefully begin refeed. If you have doubts, check with your doctor first.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Baloo on February 09, 2025, 09:16:44 AM
Exactly, you have to know your body and the limits. I can do 72 hr fast, my wife would probably be malnutrition if she did. But the science is there...the numbers are there.
The body needs to fast, min 12-16hrs and max 72hrs, to work on things it has been putting on the back burner, like reconstruction and healing. After 72hrs, and again depending on your body, all that work will slow down because of nutrients...which is when you introduce things like bone broth to help your gut microbiology flourish...if you didn't know, gut is the second brain...and the more important brain, because we directly affect it with our food! We've been taught all kinds of bogus...God has made the perfect machine to house our souls...less is more!
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 09, 2025, 09:29:33 AM
Ancient Egyptians had a clever saying (to the best of my memory)...
"1/3 of what we eat is what we need to live on. The other 2/3 is what our doctors live off of."
:rofl
Lol they knew back then! It even applies to working out! Check out Mike Mentzer...there is so much knowledge out there and also misinformation...no wonder so many are struggling!
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: xanax on February 09, 2025, 10:18:44 AM
Lol they knew back then! It even applies to working out! Check out Mike Mentzer...there is so much knowledge out there and also misinformation...no wonder so many are struggling!
I have friend and fellow bike racer we dubbed "couch to podium." He worked out of town and usually could only train on the bike once a week due to time. He'd ride to utter failure that one day and spend the rest of the week after work on the couch in his hotel room watching TV. Come race day however, he was up on the podium almost every time after the race. Reminds me of Mentzer a bit.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Baloo on February 09, 2025, 11:17:13 AM
I have friend and fellow bike racer we dubbed "couch to podium." He worked out of town and usually could only train on the bike once a week due to time. He'd ride to utter failure that one day and spend the rest of the week after work on the couch in his hotel room watching TV. Come race day however, he was up on the podium almost every time after the race. Reminds me of Mentzer a bit.
Hahah hey no harm in the easy way out, if it works! Being lazy has its perks...don't want to workout? Don't eat. Want to eat? Do body weight squats till you can't. Want to play aces high for 3 hours? Do 10 push-ups everytime you're down haha
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Getback on February 09, 2025, 04:49:29 PM
Ancient Egyptians had a clever saying (to the best of my memory)...
"1/3 of what we eat is what we need to live on. The other 2/3 is what our doctors live off of."
:rofl
LOL
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Getback on February 09, 2025, 04:51:43 PM
From my experience, if you're starving yourself, you've already failed. Most people on the carnivore diet don't count calories and don't weigh themselves every day. I weigh myself twice a month.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: nopoop on February 09, 2025, 07:07:50 PM
Well, 6 foot five, 205lbs. 73 years old One meal a day (dinner) Favorite meal... One pound 80% lean beef hamburger formed to an inch thick cooked on the BBQ rare. Cup of white rice and a salad. Gym 4 days on, 1 day off. (Weigjts an machines) Went back to lifting after retirement. Old body builder in my twenties's and thirties
Biggest surprise is the body doesnt forget even at my age. Strenth is less, but the size comes back. It remembers.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 09, 2025, 07:20:47 PM
From my experience, if you're starving yourself, you've already failed. Most people on the carnivore diet don't count calories and don't weigh themselves every day. I weigh myself twice a month.
Agreed. If you are fat adapted and eating Carnivore there is no need to calorie restrict for weight loss. and you shouldn't weigh anyway. As you might be trading fat for muscle which weighs more. A tape measure is better than weighing. Or just look in the mirror at you body composition.
That is why I don't fast for weight loss.
If you want increased autophagy, occasional fasting of some type is the only way I know of that will activate that pathway.
$0.02.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: xanax on February 09, 2025, 07:21:29 PM
Well, 6 foot five, 205lbs. 73 years old One meal a day (dinner) Favorite meal... One pound 80% lean beef hamburger formed to an inch thick cooked on the BBQ rare. Cup of white rice and a salad. Gym 4 days on, 1 day off. (Weigjts an machines) Went back to lifting after retirement. Old body builder in my twenties's and thirties
Biggest surprise is the body doesnt forget even at my age. Strenth is less, but the size comes back. It remembers.
That's fantastic! Keep up the good work.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: xanax on February 09, 2025, 07:34:02 PM
Agreed. If you are fat adapted and eating Carnivore there is no need to calorie restrict for weight loss.
That is why I don't fast for weight loss.
If you want increased autophagy, occasional fasting of some type is the only way I know of that will activate that pathway.
$0.02.
Actually, there's data out there showing metformin (Glucophage) inducing autophagy while inhibiting gluconeogenesis at the same time. I forget the pathways but that's a double barrel of potential.
It's also suspected in fighting some carcinomas as well via autophagy.
Kind of a wonder drug situation.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 09, 2025, 07:43:37 PM
Actually, there's data out there showing metformin (Glucophage) inducing autophagy while inhibiting gluconeogenesis at the same time. I forget the pathways but that's a double barrel of potential.
It's also suspected in fighting some carcinomas as well via autophagy.
Kind of a wonder drug situation.
Perhaps, but I'm not big on pills if I can avoid them.
Periodic therapeutic fasting has been used by various cultures for thousands of years for it's health benefits.
Check out Valter Longo's research on fasting for cancer treatment.
And amazingly,
Quote
In mouse studies, the fasting mimicking diet was as effective as chemotherapy. Instead of damaging normal tissues and organs, it protected them.
Agreed. If you are fat adapted and eating Carnivore there is no need to calorie restrict for weight loss. and you shouldn't weigh anyway. As you might be trading fat for muscle which weighs more. A tape measure is better than weighing. Or just look in the mirror at you body composition.
That is why I don't fast for weight loss.
If you want increased autophagy, occasional fasting of some type is the only way I know of that will activate that pathway.
$0.02.
Exactly! I started fasting to get the fat out of my liver. From what I gather the fat in your liver is caused by carbs. Even then I only fast when I'm not hungry.
I looked at myself in the mirror and thought what's missing. Then one day I realized I had no love handles.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: xanax on February 09, 2025, 07:59:27 PM
Perhaps, but I'm not big on pills if I can avoid them.
Periodic therapeutic fasting has been used by various cultures for thousands of years for it's health benefits.
Check out Valter Longo's research on fasting for cancer treatment.
And amazingly, https://valterlongo.com/cancer/#:~:text=Five%20Day%20Fast&text=In%20mouse%20studies%2C%20the%20fasting,and%20organs%2C%20it%20protected%20them. (https://valterlongo.com/cancer/#:~:text=Five%20Day%20Fast&text=In%20mouse%20studies%2C%20the%20fasting,and%20organs%2C%20it%20protected%20them.)
FMD is just fasting for people who are scared of fasting. No additional benefit over fasting other than easier compliance for most Normies.
Oh I'm all in on fasting. About to finish an 18-hour one with some chicken wings with a side of other chicken wings and a Lime Topo Chico fizzy water.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 09, 2025, 08:06:07 PM
Exactly! I started fasting to get the fat out of my liver. From what I gather the fat in your liver is caused by carbs. Even then I only fast when I'm not hungry.
I looked at myself in the mirror and thought what's missing. Then one day I realized I had no love handles.
Oh and on gluconeogenesis, that reminds me of a point I was going to make earlier that I forgot.
There are some reasons some glucose in needed by the body even when fully fat adapted. Can't remember the justification at the moment.
However, that doesn't require the consumption of carbs because the healthy body is completely capable of creating it's own needed level of glucose from the essential fatty acids you get from your meat diet through gluconeogenesis.
If you consume dietary carbs, you are almost certain to get more glucose than absolutely needed and that triggers insulin and all usual downsides.
If you consume no carbs, the body happily makes the glucose it needs from gluconeogenesis, exactly in the amount needed. No more. No less. And less than will trigger problematic insulin release. So that is kind of a magic hack. A better approach IMHO.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 09, 2025, 08:29:05 PM
Oh I'm all in on fasting. About to finish an 18-hour one with some chicken wings with a side of other chicken wings and a Lime Topo Chico fizzy water.
Hey. sometimes I weaken and think, "Man, I sure miss the old diet I used to have. I miss beer, pizza, chips and salsa, spagetti, Loaves of that bread they serve at Pappaduexs, etc, etc. I'm having to deny those pleasures on this diet. Woe is me, such self-denial, such suffering!"
Then I look down at my plate at the perfectly grilled 16 oz rib-eye with a two TBS wad of Kerry Gold\blue cheese compound butter just beginning to melt into the meat, and a side of butter sauteed jumbo shrimp and scallops.
OK. Maybe I'll get over it. :rofl
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: xanax on February 09, 2025, 09:32:55 PM
Hey. sometimes I weaken and think, "Man, I sure miss the old diet I used to have. I miss beer, pizza, chips and salsa, spagetti, Loaves of that bread they serve at Pappaduexs, etc, etc. I'm having to deny those pleasures on this diet. Woe is me, such self-denial, such suffering!"
Then I look down at my plate at the perfectly grilled 16 oz rib-eye with a two TBS wad of Kerry Gold\blue cheese compound butter just beginning to melt into the meat, and a side of butter sauteed jumbo shrimp and scallops.
OK. Maybe I'll get over it. :rofl
That sounds damn good. Is the Kerry Gold/blue cheese a store bought product/ If so, I'll buy some tomorrow. Nuthin' better than a nice steak with scallops by-the-way...except the same but the scallops are wrapped in BACON!
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 09, 2025, 09:47:46 PM
Hey. sometimes I weaken and think, "Man, I sure miss the old diet I used to have. I miss beer, pizza, chips and salsa, spagetti, Loaves of that bread they serve at Pappaduexs, etc, etc. I'm having to deny those pleasures on this diet. Woe is me, such self-denial, such suffering!"
Then I look down at my plate at the perfectly grilled 16 oz rib-eye with a two TBS wad of Kerry Gold\blue cheese compound butter just beginning to melt into the meat, and a side of butter sauteed jumbo shrimp and scallops.
OK. Maybe I'll get over it. :rofl
Sometimes I add shrimp when the steak doesn't seem enough.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Bizman on February 13, 2025, 05:52:29 AM
Then I look down at my plate at the perfectly grilled 16 oz rib-eye with a two TBS wad of Kerry Gold\blue cheese compound butter just beginning to melt into the meat, and a side of butter sauteed jumbo shrimp and scallops.
All that is for one person for a single meal? Oh wow!
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Eagler on February 13, 2025, 08:12:39 AM
Well if that's the secret to fantastic health thank goodness meat and chicken are at record prices and being blamed for hurricanes, fires and snow storms with their future being priced out of reach for most folks..
How about starting with moderation in everything..including exercise
I believe excess of things brings problems..just look around
Eagler
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 13, 2025, 09:48:24 AM
Well if that's the secret to fantastic health thank goodness meat and chicken are at record prices and being blamed for hurricanes, fires and snow storms with their future being priced out of reach for most folks..
How about starting with moderation in everything..including exercise
I believe excess of things brings problems..just look around
Eagler
Shrug. Do what works for you.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Bizman on February 13, 2025, 12:08:39 PM
16 lbs of beef would make two dinners for me and my wife, the shrimps and scallops making a third one. Oh, but you didn't mention carrots and broccoli that my wife likes have on the side, for me you could also add a couple of egg size potatoes (not the sweet ones) to every portion.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 13, 2025, 12:13:29 PM
16 lbs of beef would make two dinners for me and my wife, the shrimps and scallops making a third one. Oh, but you didn't mention carrots and broccoli that my wife likes have on the side, for me you could also add a couple of egg size potatoes (not the sweet ones) to every portion.
I typed 16 oz rib-eye, not 16 lbs.
450g to you. ;)
I agree 16 lbs would be ...excessive. ;)
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: AKIron on February 13, 2025, 12:24:15 PM
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 13, 2025, 12:36:09 PM
My view is, and always will be, if you are thriving on your current diet, rock on Garth.
If you are having problems, of any kind, weight, glucose level, insulin resistance, BP, sleep quality, anxiety, depression, autoimmune, arthritis, skin problems, etc, etc, etc,etc, you might consider a 3 month therapeutic cycle of Carnivore to see if it can help with your issue.
I think you need to give it 3 months to make it a fair trial. Especially if you are coming straight from a carby life-style.
Month 1 will be challenging. You body is having to learn to efficiently burn fat rather than carbs for fuel. That requires a different toolkit of enzymes your body may have forgotten how to produce. Electrolyte levels have to stabilize. Etc.
Month 2, you should be hitting your stride. Adjusting your habits. Wrapping your head around a new way of thinking about food. No calorie counting, no low-fat. What you are shooting for is most of your calories coming from fat, a moderate amount from protein, as few carbs as you can manage (preferable near zero).
Month 3 you should start seeing some real improvement in various metrics if it is going to be of help to you. At least the start of it. Enough you should be able to notice.
If after 3 months you decide it is not helping, then go back to what you were doing.
If you do see improvements, you have to make a decision. Are your potatoes more important to you than the improvement in things that you might see improving.
$0.02
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Bizman on February 13, 2025, 12:37:34 PM
I meant 16 oz, and actually I looked at a conversion chart when reading that post the first time. 450g boneless meat is enough for the two of us for two meals, four portions.
Some 25+ years ago the hotel I used to stay overnight on a weekly basis had a 250g beef on their list, included into their package for regular visitors. Plenty enough after a day's work, didn't need much of a dinner the next day either.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 13, 2025, 12:42:06 PM
I meant 16 oz, and actually I looked at a conversion chart when reading that post the first time. 450g boneless meat is enough for the two of us for two meals, four portions.
Some 25+ years ago the hotel I used to stay overnight on a weekly basis had a 250g beef on their list, included into their package for regular visitors. Plenty enough after a day's work, didn't need much of a dinner the next day either.
Shrug.
Whatever works best for you. If you're happy, I'm happy for ya.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Bizman on February 14, 2025, 01:45:40 AM
Whatever works best for you. If you're happy, I'm happy for ya.
Oh, didn't mean to offend you by any means. According to what I've seen on TV and heard from people having visited the US several times such amount of beef on the plate is fully normal over there. Here, if that size is printed on the menu, it's titled XXXL and potentially includes a challenge.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Eagler on February 14, 2025, 08:31:01 AM
Oh, didn't mean to offend you by any means. According to what I've seen on TV and heard from people having visited the US several times such amount of beef on the plate is fully normal over there. Here, if that size is printed on the menu, it's titled XXXL and potentially includes a challenge.
We are super sized over here...both the people and the meals that they eat..moderation isn't in our vocabulary
"Fat Americans" is a title many seem to work at daily here..
Most don't exercise enough to eat like what is described in this thread but hey ..to each their own
Eagler
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 14, 2025, 09:59:55 AM
Oh, didn't mean to offend you by any means. According to what I've seen on TV and heard from people having visited the US several times such amount of beef on the plate is fully normal over there. Here, if that size is printed on the menu, it's titled XXXL and potentially includes a challenge.
No offense taken. I said at the start I don't try and convince skeptics or debate nutrition. I'll give some info to the Carnivore Curious, and trade notes with fellow travelers. I feel no need to convince anyone else. Every one should find what works best for them, and no one is required to agree with my choice.
:aok
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 14, 2025, 10:20:54 AM
We are super sized over here...both the people and the meals that they eat..moderation isn't in our vocabulary
The saying "In America everything's bigger" is well known even here near the Russian border. We also know that "In Texas everything's even more bigger".
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: AKIron on February 14, 2025, 11:24:45 AM
The saying "In America everything's bigger" is well known even here near the Russian border. We also know that "In Texas everything's even more bigger".
Yeah. I took a Nokia guy visiting on business out to a good Texas steakhouse. He was like, "My GAWD. This steak would feed my family for a week!"
Same look of awe as when we took our British visitors to a gun range. :rofl
Texas Shock and Awe Campaign!
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Eagler on February 14, 2025, 11:58:26 AM
I have heart issues so Im a little leery about pounding back a lot of red meat, tho I love it.
Yep 3 blockages in 2018..one being on the widow maker and another 75% blocked both stented with the 3rd being 35% blocked being treated with meds and diet..I don't think my cardiologist would approve of that diet..
Now if I were in my 20s or 30s hitting the gym everyday before working all day climbing telephone poles like I did years ago , I might take a shot at it..definitely not now.
Eagler
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 14, 2025, 12:01:05 PM
I meant pounds of meat might not be excessive for everyone. I love beef.
Ruminants like cows, lamb, and goat, bison, deer are particularly healthy for humans. Their fats are better and contain less PUFAs and nasty stuff than other non-ruminants.
Some people when they are first healing like from transitioning from vegan to carnivore actually go through a phase where they feel the need to eat up to 2 lbs beef a day. That is their body desperate to finally get some of that good nutrition. That is the body healing. Truly as time to "trust your gut".
With my morning eggs, I feel fine at about a pound of beef a day on average.
If your body is craving some more meat, eat it. It ain't like binging on potato chips or ice cream.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 14, 2025, 12:42:19 PM
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: AKIron on February 14, 2025, 12:51:48 PM
We are super sized over here...both the people and the meals that they eat..moderation isn't in our vocabulary
"Fat Americans" is a title many seem to work at daily here..
Most don't exercise enough to eat like what is described in this thread but hey ..to each their own
Eagler
I've never heard of a book on any subject about moderation. In fact, I don't believe in moderation. No carnivore in the animal kingdom thinks, I'll just have a little of the shoulder. They eat until they are full or tired of chewing. Meat has a natural off switch. The last doctor that suggested moderation gained about 30 lbs. in a few months.
There's quite a bit of good information in this thread. I'm amazed at what you folks know.
Now if you want to amuse yourself look at the shopping cart in front of you at the checkout line. It will be loaded with carbs. I call the butcher shop the Health Food Store.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Bizman on February 15, 2025, 12:13:09 PM
I've never heard of a book on any subject about moderation. In fact, I don't believe in moderation. No carnivore in the animal kingdom thinks, I'll just have a little of the shoulder. They eat until they are full or tired of chewing. Meat has a natural off switch. The last doctor that suggested moderation gained about 30 lbs. in a few months.
If moderation really makes one gain weight I should be weighing lots more. Or, if my current weight (6ft, 180lbs) is related to my moderate omnivory diet, full carnivory diet would shrink me severely underweight!
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Getback on February 16, 2025, 04:24:00 PM
If moderation really makes one gain weight I should be weighing lots more. Or, if my current weight (6ft, 180lbs) is related to my moderate omnivory diet, full carnivory diet would shrink me severely underweight!
Probably not Bizman. What more than likely would happen is you would gain muscle from all the protein. I've heard from about several people who went carnivore and lost a huge amount of weight but then as they reached their natural weight they leveled off and gained just a little.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Brooke on February 16, 2025, 05:33:08 PM
Excellent conversations in here.
I got interested in low-carb based on reading the book "The Big Fat Surprise," by Teicholz. It's an excellent book, even just from the view that the generally approved dietary advice we all heard for the prior 50+ years is total BS.
I was fascinated to learn that the idea "eating a lot of cholesterol gives you high cholesterol" was totally false. It was based on an old study where rabbits were fed animal fat, and it increased the cholesterol in their blood. But rabbits never evolved to eat animal protein. When you feed primates animal fat, it doesn't increase their blood cholesterol.
I was fascinated to learn how the US went from cooking in lard (which is actually good for you), to hydrogenated oils (to get something with shelf life like lard) which ended being horrible for you, to liquid seed oils which are horrible for you (heat causes them to polymerize in bad ways).
I tried low carb. It was great. I love meat. Lost weight easily. Felt great. But over time drifted away from it because I found it hard to eat nothing but meat and green vegetables. It was inconvenient in context of eating out with friends, having people over for dinner, etc. And it is expensive. I might go back on it, though, as I do think it is very healthy.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Brooke on February 16, 2025, 05:36:19 PM
I also read the book "Wheat Belly," by Davis. That is another great book.
Theme is that US wheat starting in the 1970's went through a genetic selection process to produce our modern wheat that has significantly altered glutin protein. And that new version is inflammatory and leads to weight gain.
The book as various evidence for that thesis. It is interesting, and it matches various anecdotal evidence in my life, including friends who go to Europe, eat whatever they want (including just as much pasta and bread as they eat in the US) yet lose weight. Europe doesn't use the US modified wheat.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Brooke on February 16, 2025, 05:46:18 PM
More recently, I read the book "The Obesity Code," by Fung.
That one is about intermittent fasting. The theme is that obesity is caused by your body having a high body-fat setting (like a thermostat). This setting is controlled by insulin resistance. Have higher insulin resistance, you body will be hungry until you are eating enough to hit a particular higher fat content. Eliminate insulin resistance, and you will get to a different set point, a lower body fat, and you aren't hungry all time at that new set point.
There are other positives as well, such as autophagy others have talked about here.
Intermittent fasting has worked great for me any my wife. For us, is is very easy, and has excellent health benefits. Key is eating inside a smaller window of time -- and NO CALORIES AT ALL outside that window. Outside the window is water, black or green tea, black coffee. No flavorings. No artificial sweeteners. No tiny splash of milk. All of those cause an insulin response and spoil the effect of the intermittent fast.
I have no problem having my eating typically be in a 6-hour window. That's lunch and dinner some days. Some days, it's just a big dinner.
Once in a while (maybe 2 times a year), I fast for a couple of days. I actually feel GREAT during that time. High energy. Crisp thinking. Feel good. I do get hungry at my normal eating times, but it's not "Can't do anything else! Must have food now!" I can recognize that I'm hungry but be OK with it.
I do feel not so good once I go to 3 days. After about 2.5 days, I start to feel sluggish and not so sharp. Could be that I didn't have any salt or other electrolytes during the whole time, though. I might try it again sometime. But 2 days for me works great.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Brooke on February 16, 2025, 05:50:24 PM
With all of that said, having read those books, and various papers on studies of this or that dietary test:
My feeling is that all three are good: low carbs, low (or no) US wheat, and intermittent fasting. And best is probably all three together, which is what I will probably try out sometime soon.
I don't need to lose much weight. I'm 5'9" and 155 lbs. I could lose 5 lbs and it would be OK.
It's more about other health factors that the above mix of diets is, I think, very good for your health long term. Less inflammation. Longer lifespan. Longer healthspan. More vigor.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Brooke on February 16, 2025, 05:54:31 PM
Oh, and duh on my part, forgetting to mention the most-important of them all.
Cut out sugar. Especially high-fructose corn syrup, as that's the worst.
If there is only one thing anyone does for health, I think that's the one.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: xanax on February 16, 2025, 07:41:34 PM
Probably not Bizman. What more than likely would happen is you would gain muscle from all the protein. I've heard from about several people who went carnivore and lost a huge amount of weight but then as they reached their natural weight they leveled off and gained just a little.
I got down to 154 or maybe 156 once but it was too low. I was doing some heavy climbing on my bike in the California Alps (Sierras south of Tahoe to east entrance to Yosemite) and being that light helped but I felt worn down off the bike. Staying at 164 to 170 via muscle mass increase feels really good.
I don't think folks are realizing that eating a meal of meat once a day isn't eating ten thousand calories. After you get settled into the diet you are eating until sated-which, depending on the person, is 1800 to 2500 calories I'd imagine. You eat until full and then you aren't hungry again for a long time. A 16oz ribeye is maybe 1500 calories or so and some shrimp a few hundred more. I'm done after that. I don't eat ribeyes every day so I'd imagine I pay about the same as a "normal" diet but probably a bit more due to egg prices. For me, it's worth it. If were to pound down a few slices of pizza to get to 2000 calories, I might feel full for a few hours but I guarantee I'm sniffing out that roll of frozen Girl Scouts Thin Mints nestled in the freezer next to the vanilla iced milk container in a few hours. That stuff doesn't curb my hunger, it increases it.
Again, carbohydrates are heroin to me. I'm not doing this for vanity or to fit in size small clothing, I'm trying to extend my life in a way where I want to feel good as long as I can. I think this is the way for me but I don't think I'm preaching or anything, I think I'm putting my story and my reasons out there for folks that may have shown interest after Getback recounted his fantastic journey. To each his own as I know plenty of folks who are in stupendous health and can handle eating a couple Dilly Bars after a burger and fries at DQ once in a while. I can't, I've tried. My wife eats an old-school Okinawan diet as that's where she's from. A pretty limited diet calorie-wise but maybe that's the secret to their longevity. She eats a little, rounds mound of rice and a bit of pork pretty much every day. Once in a while she'll eat a sliver of dark chocolate. I'm actually 57 and not 56 as I said earlier.....not sure how I fouled that math. Anyhow, I'm on one prescribed drug and that's Xarelto due to increased chances for blood clots after having a clotting event earlier in my life. I've had 3 pulmonary embolisms but not again since starting the Xarelto about 10 years ago. I was able to stop needing the statins, beta-blockers, H2 antagonists, proton pump inhibitors and SSRI's along with CPAP some 20 years ago or so and I haven't looked back.
I'm out. If anyone is further interested, I suggest all the links provided previously in this thread. Again I stress: "to each his own."
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Bizman on February 17, 2025, 01:40:01 AM
Probably not Bizman. What more than likely would happen is you would gain muscle from all the protein. I've heard from about several people who went carnivore and lost a huge amount of weight but then as they reached their natural weight they leveled off and gained just a little.
I'm not sure about my fat percentage, it has only been measured by the electric conductance or whatever, first time by grabbing a pair of handles some 25 years ago and later by standing on a scale having a similar feature. It was below 20. That said, my six-pack doesn't actually show but I don't consider myself being padded either.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Getback on February 17, 2025, 04:30:25 AM
Oh, and duh on my part, forgetting to mention the most-important of them all.
Cut out sugar. Especially high-fructose corn syrup, as that's the worst.
If there is only one thing anyone does for health, I think that's the one.
Yeppers! Seed oils are pretty nasty too.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: fuzeman on February 17, 2025, 09:22:48 AM
One of the best ever threads on the AH Boards IMO!!
Last week did a 14+ hour fast for my blood test. High glucose, BP, anemia, type II diabetes, weight 157 and going down. I have much to work on. Vastly reducing carbs as best I can and trying to eat more protein and fats. Seems its hard for me to keep or even gain weight. 2000 mg of metformin a day. Have to get healthy so I can keep participating in scenarios!! And regarding nutrition and and it's importance I came across YT video and it caught my eye. It's got marijuana in red but that's just one thing they discuss. Among the others gaming, porn, alcohol, etc. Many things that mess up your coconut. Those who exercise reduce their risk of alzheimers by 30% and 50% of us will have it by age 80. We might not display the symptoms buy we have it according to the video, IIRC. Maybe I should have started a separate thread on that.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: DmonSlyr on February 17, 2025, 11:35:14 AM
More recently, I read the book "The Obesity Code," by Fung.
That one is about intermittent fasting. The theme is that obesity is caused by your body having a high body-fat setting (like a thermostat). This setting is controlled by insulin resistance. Have higher insulin resistance, you body will be hungry until you are eating enough to hit a particular higher fat content. Eliminate insulin resistance, and you will get to a different set point, a lower body fat, and you aren't hungry all time at that new set point.
There are other positives as well, such as autophagy others have talked about here.
Intermittent fasting has worked great for me any my wife. For us, is is very easy, and has excellent health benefits. Key is eating inside a smaller window of time -- and NO CALORIES AT ALL outside that window. Outside the window is water, black or green tea, black coffee. No flavorings. No artificial sweeteners. No tiny splash of milk. All of those cause an insulin response and spoil the effect of the intermittent fast.
I have no problem having my eating typically be in a 6-hour window. That's lunch and dinner some days. Some days, it's just a big dinner.
Once in a while (maybe 2 times a year), I fast for a couple of days. I actually feel GREAT during that time. High energy. Crisp thinking. Feel good. I do get hungry at my normal eating times, but it's not "Can't do anything else! Must have food now!" I can recognize that I'm hungry but be OK with it.
I do feel not so good once I go to 3 days. After about 2.5 days, I start to feel sluggish and not so sharp. Could be that I didn't have any salt or other electrolytes during the whole time, though. I might try it again sometime. But 2 days for me works great.
See that's crazy to me because if I go about 8 hours without eating. I've got a headache and I get very irritable. Do you believe it's just something you have to start slowly and over time get to that level of say even 1 day? Is it a metabolism thing? Or is that the bodies reaction to not having the "drug" sorta speak and having withdrawals from say sugar and carbs?
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 17, 2025, 12:13:14 PM
See that's crazy to me because if I go about 8 hours without eating. I've got a headache and I get very irritable. Do you believe it's just something you have to start slowly and over time get to that level of say even 1 day? Is it a metabolism thing? Or is that the bodies reaction to not having the "drug" sorta speak and having withdrawals from say sugar and carbs?
Sounds like your body is only used to burning carbs and you are not fat adapted.
Also at first when you are dumping glycogen that takes a lot of water molecules along with it and can flush electrolytes. Supplement with electrolytes during a fast can help, but spend a month get good and fat adapted first.
If you are a carb burner, you blow through glycogen quick and then crash and feel like crap.
If you are fat adapted and have > 5% your body should have plenty of fuel to last at least a week or two but limit it to no more than 5 days to avoid metabolism reactions.
The rest is just psychologically fighting the impulse to eat that ghrelin temporarily induces. But that comes in waves and will die down again in an hour or two. Modern people panic at the first sensation of hunger. No one in the first world is likely to die from a day or two of fasting, but starting with a 24 hour fast is good. Go from one dinner until the next days dinner fasting . Half that time you were asleep anyway.
$0.02
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Bizman on February 17, 2025, 01:06:27 PM
Has anyone yet mentioned beer as a source of carbs? Not to mention sweet liqueurs. Wine and spirits not so much but they still include lots of energy. Is that why beer often makes one feel less energetic than the same amount of alcohol as Scotch or wine?
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: CptTrips on February 17, 2025, 01:18:30 PM
Has anyone yet mentioned beer as a source of carbs? Not to mention sweet liqueurs. Wine and spirits not so much but they still include lots of energy. Is that why beer often makes one feel less energetic than the same amount of alcohol as Scotch or wine?
Since I've started Paleo\Keto\Carnivore I consume virtually no alcohol.
Just lost my taste. I might enjoy a ice cold beer after sweating hot work outside in summer, but that is rare because I no longer buy it. So maybe at a friends house helping with a fence or something I'll have one.
Heck, in my youth I could easily drop a 12 pack in the afternoon helping a friend.
American beer is the worst of the worst filled with maltodextrin and they use HFCS for the fermentation as it is cheaper than real grain.
I will occasionally have a bourbon or gin and tonic, but found I no longer enjoy them much. I prefer a puff now and then.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: AKIron on February 17, 2025, 01:32:47 PM
Capt trips, aka Little Jackie Paper. ;)
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Eagler on February 17, 2025, 02:03:41 PM
Colonoscopy prep is a great way to "fast" too...
When you are cleaned out enough for the scope to get good enough photos, you are as cleaned out as well as you can get..endless hours of toilet visits insures that...lol
Also you won't gain muscle just by eating more animal protein...exercise is the missing ingredient there..
Eagler
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Brooke on February 17, 2025, 03:03:54 PM
See that's crazy to me because if I go about 8 hours without eating. I've got a headache and I get very irritable. Do you believe it's just something you have to start slowly and over time get to that level of say even 1 day? Is it a metabolism thing? Or is that the bodies reaction to not having the "drug" sorta speak and having withdrawals from say sugar and carbs?
I think it varies person to person. I would suggest reading "Fast, feast, repeat", by Stephens, for suggestions on how work your way into intermittent fasting.
I think it is possible to work into it.
For example, lots of people are having carbs every 2 hours during all waking hours: breakfast, snack, snack, lunch, snack, snack, dinner, snack, snack, bed. And drinking something with sugar all throughout the day. And getting out of that can be done gradually instead of all at once.
For me, when I look back on it, I went through these steps:
1. Cut out ALL sugary beverages and ALL artificially sweetened beverages. No soda, no fruit juice, no energy drinks, no diet Coke, no flavored coffee, no herbal or flavored teas, no vanilla flavor added, no squeeze of lemon, no sprinkle of cinnamon -- none of that. Drink water, black tea, green tea, black coffee ONLY. Do just that change for a couple of weeks to get used to it. It took me 2 weeks until I wasn't craving sugary beverages. It was eye opening to me how that worked.
Just get past that first, then:
2. Cut out all snacking between meals.
3. In your meals, reduce sugar and carbs some. Increase meat, eggs, animal fat, and good plant oils (olive, coconut, avocado, and/or palm), green vegetables. Don't have to go cold turkey, and go to nothing but meat and greens. That could be too hard and cause you to quit rather than just modify to a level you are OK with and succeed.
Get used to that, and then:
4. Try moving the meals you eat closer together in time. Have the window in which you are eating be 10 hours instead of 12. Or 8 hours instead of 10. Do not eat any calories or any flavorings or any artificial sweeteners outside that eating window. No flavored beverages (like herbal tea or flavored coffee). Outside your eating window, it's ONLY water, black tea, green tea, and black coffee.
5. Once able to move eating window to be 6-8 hours, try once in a while (once a week, or whatever) a day where you eat only one big meal that day. Again, nothing other than water, tea, coffee (no sugar, no artificial sweetener, no flavorings) outside that window.
6. If you can manage that, try skipping one whole day of eating. I.e., you eat your dinner meal one day, skip the next day, then eat your lunch (or whatever) meal the day after that. If you can manage that, try it once in a while. A couple times a year, once a quarter, once a month or whatever. If adventurous, you can try skipping 2 days and see how it goes.
That's sort of the path my wife and I took into it. Now, for us, intermittent fasting is super easy. For my wife, it has been super effective -- and easy.
On top of that, there are all sorts of other things we did: -- Exercise some. Even a walk here and there is far better than nothing. Walk after meal is most beneficial. -- Get some sunlight on your skin (i.e., walk outside, not on inside treadmill). -- Eat your salad as 1st thing in a meal. Helps in many ways. -- Consume more vinegar (oil-and-vinegar salad dressing, or some folks make "posca" (old Roman drink) basically a table spoon of apple cider vinegar in a glass of water, and drink that at start of meal). Helps with insulin response. -- Take a multivitamin that gives you folate, B-12, vitamin D, etc. Won't hurt you and helps if you don't get enough of those things. -- Fish oil supplement (but I think only the stuff in bottles is the thing to take, as I don't trust oil in capsules not to be oxidized).
Good luck, my friend! :aok
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Brooke on February 17, 2025, 03:06:49 PM
Lolz! You can say that again. I joke with my mom, "Hey, you got any of that delicious Golytley? I could go for chugging down a gallon or so of that."
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: fuzeman on February 18, 2025, 08:36:16 AM
The prep is the main reason I’ve avoided getting mine. I can imagine when trying to clean out with many visits to ‘pay the rent’ , so to speak, doing ‘paperwork’ would feel like I’m sanding some wood. Hemi and Roidy would start bleeding. TMI!!
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Baloo on February 18, 2025, 08:37:40 AM
I think it varies person to person. I would suggest reading "Fast, feast, repeat", by Stephens, for suggestions on how work your way into intermittent fasting.
I think it is possible to work into it.
For example, lots of people are having carbs every 2 hours during all waking hours: breakfast, snack, snack, lunch, snack, snack, dinner, snack, snack, bed. And drinking something with sugar all throughout the day. And getting out of that can be done gradually instead of all at once.
For me, when I look back on it, I went through these steps:
1. Cut out ALL sugary beverages and ALL artificially sweetened beverages. No soda, no fruit juice, no energy drinks, no diet Coke, no flavored coffee, no herbal or flavored teas, no vanilla flavor added, no squeeze of lemon, no sprinkle of cinnamon -- none of that. Drink water, black tea, green tea, black coffee ONLY. Do just that change for a couple of weeks to get used to it. It took me 2 weeks until I wasn't craving sugary beverages. It was eye opening to me how that worked.
Just get past that first, then:
2. Cut out all snacking between meals.
3. In your meals, reduce sugar and carbs some. Increase meat, eggs, animal fat, and good plant oils (olive, coconut, avocado, and/or palm), green vegetables. Don't have to go cold turkey, and go to nothing but meat and greens. That could be too hard and cause you to quit rather than just modify to a level you are OK with and succeed.
Get used to that, and then:
4. Try moving the meals you eat closer together in time. Have the window in which you are eating be 10 hours instead of 12. Or 8 hours instead of 10. Do not eat any calories or any flavorings or any artificial sweeteners outside that eating window. No flavored beverages (like herbal tea or flavored coffee). Outside your eating window, it's ONLY water, black tea, green tea, and black coffee.
5. Once able to move eating window to be 6-8 hours, try once in a while (once a week, or whatever) a day where you eat only one big meal that day. Again, nothing other than water, tea, coffee (no sugar, no artificial sweetener, no flavorings) outside that window.
6. If you can manage that, try skipping one whole day of eating. I.e., you eat your dinner meal one day, skip the next day, then eat your lunch (or whatever) meal the day after that. If you can manage that, try it once in a while. A couple times a year, once a quarter, once a month or whatever. If adventurous, you can try skipping 2 days and see how it goes.
That's sort of the path my wife and I took into it. Now, for us, intermittent fasting is super easy. For my wife, it has been super effective -- and easy.
On top of that, there are all sorts of other things we did: -- Exercise some. Even a walk here and there is far better than nothing. Walk after meal is most beneficial. -- Get some sunlight on your skin (i.e., walk outside, not on inside treadmill). -- Eat your salad as 1st thing in a meal. Helps in many ways. -- Consume more vinegar (oil-and-vinegar salad dressing, or some folks make "posca" (old Roman drink) basically a table spoon of apple cider vinegar in a glass of water, and drink that at start of meal). Helps with insulin response. -- Take a multivitamin that gives you folate, B-12, vitamin D, etc. Won't hurt you and helps if you don't get enough of those things. -- Fish oil supplement (but I think only the stuff in bottles is the thing to take, as I don't trust oil in capsules not to be oxidized).
Good luck, my friend! :aok
This is the way! :cheers: :salute
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Bizman on February 18, 2025, 08:41:58 AM
I think the benefit of making decent food is so great that just doing that is of huge benefit.
Tru dat!
Eating is my primary livelihood so why should I torture the closest stomach to me with poor food?
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Baloo on February 19, 2025, 08:40:45 AM
Really, it is simple and no need for science...stick to God made food - eat for nutrition not satiation (eat in moderation), you're good.
Do 20 mins of walking a day, some pushup, squat...to your ability, some kinda physical exercise. That's it! For maintenance anyway.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Getback on February 20, 2025, 06:13:42 PM
My advice to those who crave carbs is fix yourself a hamburger patty or a couple of eggs fried in butter. Then wait a bit. You will not get fat from animal fat. You will from carbs.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Getback on February 21, 2025, 01:58:09 AM
Reducing inflammation goes hand in hand with proper nutrition. Sugar is inflammatory. Omitting sugar from your diet will more than likely stop snoring and probably within a week. If you smoke that is an inflammatory as well. It takes six months after quitting for the inflammation to go away. I imagine it's the same for anything you smoke. Side note, it takes 3 years for the inflammation caused by seed oils to go away.
Plants in general don't like to be eaten. Caffeine is a bug repellant. Some veggies have Oxalates. Those are tiny shard like particles used by the plants to fight off pests. They will cut the inside of a bug's mouth. When eaten by humans they may combine with calcium and form kidney stones.
You may want to look up Carnivor Teacher. He's doing a series on plant toxins.
I'm with several others here on the thread. Use the diet that best works for you.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: icepac on February 21, 2025, 05:43:03 AM
Don’t eat only one meal a day.
It causes the body to go into “calorie storage mode.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Bizman on February 21, 2025, 08:59:06 AM
It causes the body to go into “calorie storage mode.
You dont do it every day. And you dont eat less. Going into low metabolism happens if you calorie restrict. Not doing that is one part of why intermittent fasting works.
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Eagler on February 21, 2025, 01:22:41 PM
The prep is the main reason I’ve avoided getting mine. I can imagine when trying to clean out with many visits to ‘pay the rent’ , so to speak, doing ‘paperwork’ would feel like I’m sanding some wood. Hemi and Roidy would start bleeding. TMI!!
The prep is not as nasty as it sounds..
Clear liquid diet followed by mega laxative doses ... it's just water by then, alot of water but no pain with hemroid in my experience...
Best part is the nap one gets from the propofol ... Best sleep ever..is why MJ had it administered until it killed him...
Go get one done if you're due or at risk...could be a life saver
Eagler
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Brooke on February 21, 2025, 02:09:25 PM
Many reference up stream in this thread mentioning intermittent fasting while NOT calorie restricting.
you eat twice the food 1 day and fast the next. that's not fasting. you just eat enough for 2 days.
semp
Title: Re: Everything Starts With Nutrition
Post by: Getback on March 01, 2025, 06:56:07 AM
I have a N=1 for you all.
Last year in March I had CT scan that showed I had fat in my liver. It was in the normal range but, they wanted to keep an eye on it. At the time I was doing keto and then in April I went full carnivore. Which means I ate pretty much only fatty meat.
Fast forward to last Tuesday, I had a liver scan exclusively. I had no fat in my liver and no scarring. That is strong testimony that animal fat that is not used by your body will pass through. It certainly didn't get stored.