Author Topic: Is it wrong???  (Read 5835 times)

Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Is it wrong???
« Reply #120 on: August 12, 2014, 10:36:31 AM »
Today I up my trusty Brewster. I tangled with a few then in comes a LA.  Get on his six and he leaves, running away. I roll out, he returns, then he runs. Happened 4 or 5 times. Just before blowing a gasket I begin to ponder. I see a lot of talk on the forum about "run stangs" "spit dweeb" blah blah. Is it really wrong to capitalize on each planes strength? I was turning and burning the Brewster. Was I in the wrong to use its strength?



Random post, no doubt. Just a thought...



You filthy worm! A real man would try to fight the La-La on its strengths instead of out-turning him like some kind of nervous nancy!

People like you show their truly scurrilous character by the way the play in-game. I'll bet you're some kind of criminal, or perhaps a product liability lawyer.

Bottom line: a REAL MAN will line up pretty in my sights and let me shred him with cannon fire. Then I'll send him a snappy salute as he tumbles from the sky.

Fly to strengths... pah!

 :D

Of course not, dude... You were doing it, he was doing it. There was true reciprocity there. Lots of people complain about getting killed. Most of it is butt hurt.
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Offline guncrasher

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Re: Is it wrong???
« Reply #121 on: August 12, 2014, 10:46:05 AM »
I'm the Uber of hitting trees?  Do I win a prize? :D

I am really awesome at running away in my pony.  so I get the uber prize :).


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Offline Changeup

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Re: Is it wrong???
« Reply #122 on: August 12, 2014, 10:50:07 AM »
Three sincere questions:

1. If this is so, then why do I (and so many other virtual pilots) find it much simpler to win fights where plane matchup allows one to simply saddle up through angles tactics?

2. If this is so, why did the guy who literally wrote the book on fighter combat, Robert Shaw, emphasize repeatedly that E-fighting is less generally less intuitive and requires more experience?

3. Finally, if E-fighting actually is easier than turn-fighting, why does anyone in either the virtual sky ever choose a turn-fighter? Humans are not noted for taking the path of MOST resistance in large numbers...

1.  I am not seeing this.  I see exactly what I said.  Two passes, lose position, extend and come back when chaser is engaged.  I do not see a lot of same plane match ups with two willing participants engaging until it's natural conclusion.

2.  The jet age my friend. 

3.  You'd have to ask them.  Why do people buy salads at a steak house?  I'm not sure the question is relevant since we're discussing styles.

I more important question is why pilots spending the TIME to learn all of them?  Probably because it requires a great deal of time and since AH isn't paying our mortgages, we can't devote that time.
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Offline Wiley

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Re: Is it wrong???
« Reply #123 on: August 12, 2014, 10:58:18 AM »
Three sincere questions:

1. If this is so, then why do I (and so many other virtual pilots) find it much simpler to win fights where plane matchup allows one to simply saddle up through angles tactics?

2. If this is so, why did the guy who literally wrote the book on fighter combat, Robert Shaw, emphasize repeatedly that E-fighting is less generally less intuitive and requires more experience?

3. Finally, if E-fighting actually is easier than turn-fighting, why does anyone in either the virtual sky ever choose a turn-fighter? Humans are not noted for taking the path of MOST resistance in large numbers...

1. I think maybe your definition of 'easy' might be a bit different from what was meant(?)  E fighting is the easiest way to survive more, but it has the downside that unless your gunnery is terrifyingly good you don't get as many kills as if you were angle/turnfighting.  About the best example I can give is a D9 kept fast is extremely easy to survive in, somewhat more difficult to kill in for an average player.

2. Can't speak for Shaw.

3. Because it's more exciting and requires much less patience, and is easier to kill.

Wiley.
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Offline Skyyr

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Re: Is it wrong???
« Reply #124 on: August 12, 2014, 11:03:21 AM »

2.  The jet age my friend.  


Not true at all. The jet age made energy fighting LESS relevant due to thrust/weight ratios reaching 1.0. Energy fighting was most applicable prior to this point. The lower the thrust/weight ratio, the more relevant energy fighting is. This is basic knowledge for anyone who follows ACM outside of a gaming application.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2014, 11:07:16 AM by Skyyr »
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Offline Changeup

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Re: Is it wrong???
« Reply #125 on: August 12, 2014, 11:14:56 AM »
Not true at all. The jet age made energy fighting LESS relevant due to thrust/weight ratios reaching 1.0. Energy fighting was most applicable prior to this point. The lower the thrust/weight ratio, the more relevant energy fighting is. This is basic knowledge for anyone who follows ACM outside of a gaming application.

You'd have to ask Shaw.  He's the one that emphasized it....in the jet age.  According to BoneZ
"Such is the nature of war.  By protecting others, you save yourself."

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered.  Those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.  Thus, the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Morihei Ueshiba

Offline Triton28

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Re: Is it wrong???
« Reply #126 on: August 12, 2014, 11:20:12 AM »
Three sincere questions:

1. If this is so, then why do I (and so many other virtual pilots) find it much simpler to win fights where plane matchup allows one to simply saddle up through angles tactics?

Unless you warped into the saddle position, you had to get there somehow.  Angles fighting does not just start once you're in the saddle. 

2. If this is so, why did the guy who literally wrote the book on fighter combat, Robert Shaw, emphasize repeatedly that E-fighting is less generally less intuitive and requires more experience?

I'd guess because it's critical to judge your opponents energy properly.  In real world applications, I could see where this would be more challenging.  In this game, with icons and hundreds or thousands of hours playing, it's not that difficult. 

3. Finally, if E-fighting actually is easier than turn-fighting, why does anyone in either the virtual sky ever choose a turn-fighter? Humans are not noted for taking the path of MOST resistance in large numbers...

The P-51 is the most flown plane in the game and is a wonderful energy fighter.  I'd also submit Skyyr as a reference.  He's only been playing this game since November 21, 2013 and is already a master of the energy fight.  Now, take an expert energy fighter and throw him into an angles fight in the DA and... well, we've seen film of this. 
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Offline Skyyr

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Re: Is it wrong???
« Reply #127 on: August 12, 2014, 11:29:04 AM »
You'd have to ask Shaw.  He's the one that emphasized it....in the jet age.  According to BoneZ

You didn't read. Energy fighting is primarily applicable up to a 1.0 T/W ratio. Shaw wrote his book well before that, at the infancy of the jet age. Shaw prefaced his work with an acknowledgement that it was based on logic, reasoning, and experience. He based energy fighting tactics off of the premise that thrust was a limited commodity and therefore managing it more efficiently would result in an advantage. This was all but negated once T/W went over 1.0, as there is now, literally, an excess of thrust available to the pilot.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2014, 11:34:04 AM by Skyyr »
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Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: Is it wrong???
« Reply #128 on: August 12, 2014, 12:02:45 PM »
E-fighting can be difficult when you are continuously trying to hit someone and they dodge your attempts. Many people blow all their E after the 3rd or 4th attempt because of impatients and fear of getting picked themselves. This is how the slower plane will win the majority of their fights if they know what they are doing and get the faster guy to play their game. This is how I get most of my kills on higher planes. But I do this on purpose as to trap the faster plane and get him slow and impatient.  

A good E fighter will hopefully get the slower plane to climb for the rope. Whereby hammerhead stall for the kill when the slower plane falls over.

The majority of pilots on here don't fly that way, they make one pass and head for the hills. Such a boring way to fly and kills will be far and few between.

E fighters still have to be aggressive in order to keep their opponent on their feet and slow. They need to use the verticle loop to their advantage. That's what makes a good E fighter compared to another BnZ runner type guy.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2014, 12:04:18 PM by DmonSlyr »
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Is it wrong???
« Reply #129 on: August 12, 2014, 12:23:49 PM »
lol... yeah.  I find that getting a kill is more satisfying than just flying away too.  But no, E-fighting is really only hard if your eye for judging E is rusty and/or you have no idea what you're doing.  Beyond that, just follow the script.

Keep in mind, the majority of the players that "Energy Fight" are doing it incorrectly.

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Offline BnZs

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Re: Is it wrong???
« Reply #130 on: August 12, 2014, 02:47:38 PM »
Unless you warped into the saddle position, you had to get there somehow.  Angles fighting does not just start once you're in the saddle. 
Yes, but many encounters start with one plane in a positional advantage. It is always feels much simpler and more intuitive to simply manage speed and pursuit course to latch onto their six in a plane that turns as well or better than it is to try and use speed and the vertical and what have you to get a shot in a plane that turns much worse.

 
The P-51 is the most flown plane in the game and is a wonderful energy fighter. 
I'd say it's not really, and there are many cultural reasons why the most hyped American warbird is the most flown that do not relate to effectiveness. It doesn't have an especially high power to weight ratio, and that and not top speed is the most crucial advantage in the 1v1 energy fight.

If for some reason I *had* to win a 1v1 fight against an opponent flying a SpitXVI in this game, I would rather be flying a SpitXVI of my own with a co-alt/co-e merge, rather than have a P-51 with ANY amount of altitude advantage.
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Offline Wmaker

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Re: Is it wrong???
« Reply #131 on: August 13, 2014, 04:54:28 AM »
If you can make the space to do it. It leaves you pretty vulnerable and is a bit predictable. How do you responsd when flying the Brewster when you observe this in an opponent?

This was the original argument/statement I was answering to:
If Im in lets say a 109g14 and there is a Brewster or ki43 or A6m trying to engage me and I don't have E or alt to attempt a rope, I will extend away. (Its really only these 3 planes though). Normally it's fun to try to win these fights, but if you are in a fighter that at least doesn't maneuver as well as a ki84/f4u then you will generally have no chance to win in a TnB fight vs a brew, ki43 or a6m.

Sadly extending away is really your only chance to stay alive vs these 3 types of planes. I typically avoid them at all cost.

With such a massive speed and climb/acceleration advantage which G-14 has over these three planes one can extend out of guns range quickly and easily (beyond 1000 yards). And that is how far horizontally you need to go really. After that, I'd let the speed stabilize for fifteen seconds and start a shallow climb which I would gradually make steeper. From there I'd pull into a climbing spiral, the three planes mentioned wouldn't have any change at keeping up (Brewster has the worst climb rate of these three). If the opponent would try to follow the spiral (he would now be clearly lower) he would be in immediate danger of getting shot down if the G-14 simply suddenly does a half roll and dives on him.

The point of this is that it doesn't matter if the G-14 doesn't initially have "E or alt to attempt a rope" because it can generate E at a much faster rate than the three planes mentioned and thus can easily create a situation where it will have E advantage and therefore the initiative and complete control of the engagement.

What I would do in a Brewster? I would just climb in a shallow angle to keep enough speed for an evasive and wish I'd have several hundred horses more under the hood :) and react to what ever the G-14 would do.


I'm not sure of your point?

I get your concept, but what does this have to do against a brewster or a6m when they turn on your 6 from 400 away and you are both going roughly the same speed.

The goal is not to get in the position, but realisitcally, the only thing you can do is extend away in a shallow climb. You can attempt a loaded roll but it's risky if you aren't in a ki/f4u or better turning plane than those.

If you initially have the speed, a rope, hammerhead stall, and E fighting strategies are surely what you want to do. But losing that advantage can be costly and you will be fighting with the brews advantage at this point. It's incredibly difficult to squerm away.

If you are the brew fighter, you need to get them in the looping roll by using the loaded roll technique, because your plane will always be able to turn slower. Once you get a plane in the position, being in the brew you can easily turn inside of them.

See above.


Close, but not quite. "Best climb speed" isn't specific enough, as there are several best climb speeds. You would need to climb, specifically, at Vy (or V sub y).

My statement is correct and specific enough considering context, this bbs and this thread. Of course climb speed isn't a constant nor did I claimed it to be so, hence the reference to "alt-x" which in AH is an auto pilot mode which gives you the climb speed which gives the best climb rate at any given time (for piston engined aircraft). It should be clear to anyone who's used alt-x that it doesn't keep the ground speed as constant, and since we are on the AH BBS, I expected that to be clear for most.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 04:56:08 AM by Wmaker »
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