... in defense of the Mustang.....

[Hangtime]

Fishu!! Well now.. since yah stuck yer neck out; allow me ta finish the job proper-like. First time thru, I just gave yah a little heat. Now I get ta FLAME yer heiney.   (Something I ain't really had a chance ta do since I wuz a staffer on the CS FSCombat forum many many years ago....)
     __________________________

FISHU: Hang: you don't seem to know anything about me..
      __________________________

A mite more than yer scores reveal.. recall my hopping on your case BIG TIME fer ackstarring with a B25 over in Warbirds? You were a score hound then.. and worse; yah did it with otto. Tsk Tsk!
    ____________________________

FISHU: I flew last time +30k when I chased 36k B-17 just for waste of time and used whole Fw190s fuels for it (realistic ceiling for B-17 huh?)
      __________________________

Worse.. yah pissed and moaned in the textbox fer 45 minutes during that chase.. and why were yah chasing the buff? No targets lower? And of course.. never able to pass up an oportunity to whine; yah start with the B17 flight models. Whatsamatta? yer favorite food gettin tuff ta kill?
       ______________________

FISHU: My usual flight altitude is 20-23k, which still seems to be way below stangs and spitfries.
        ______________________

LOL! Ok; below Stangs and Spits?? (how many of u guys see spits up there??) I fly alot.. and most AC I find at this alt are 'In Transit' buffs and escorts.. and score dweebs. Hate ta be the one that tells yah.. but the fights are usually to be had at a lesser altitude. I sure ain't gotta go up there ta find the enemy.   And if I did find a spit at 30K he'd be outta gas.  
     ____________________________

FISHU: I run only if I am going to have some superior numbers agains't me.
I fly most of the time alone, not with some friendly gang bangers behind me.
        ___________________________

Well of course you RUN from superior numbers.. yer a score-hound! And what about this squad of yours.. as CO, don't yah have at least a FEW guys willin ta fly with yah? One of the things that made the LW A/C so very potent was it's use with a wingman.. but keeping a wingman alive might cramp yer style...  
          ______________________

FISHU: If I've flown P-51D, I know how to compare it to other planes.
In P-51D I don't do 5k extends or such, I fight till I kill enemy or get underdog when cavalry arrives to help my target.
         _______________________

Well; there's a few ways to interpet this.. your first word is "IF" (which significantly changes the meaning) then I gotta say.. yah just ain't qualified to critique the plane. (BY YOUR STANDARD: PAL) The second half says that yah fly the plane the way yah fly the FW or 109.. as a scorehound. Yah RUN when overmatched. No shame in that... but lets not call the Mustang a "Runstang" if yah use those tactics yerself. FYI I have used a 5k or longer extend.. to cool the engine; to gain alt; to pull the target away from his acks.. or just take a leak. Are yah pissed because yer adversary out-thought yah.. or out-fought yah? Seems ta me; either way.. yer just whining.
     _____________________________ __

FISHU: Next time DO NOT say a word about my fighting style if you don't know anything about it. (obviously you don't)
Theres enough guys already telling me about 30k flying when I barely ever even go to close those levels.
       _____________________________

Whotsa matta boy.. somebody else givin yah some grief? LOL. Some rep you got. It's obvious I didn't give it to you.. till yah piped up here; I've pretty much ignored you. Can't stand the heat... get outta the kitchen.

You can say anything yah like about my style.. on the BBS where I can answer them in context. And Vice Versa. I don't give a rats behind about yer opinion on our respective scorecards. (I assume u don't either) And yer incessant whining on line is tiresome. So Instead of grousing at yah on-line and compounding yer mistake I brought it here; where it belongs.
     
I DO give a damn about my team; my squadmates; my wingman and my prefered sim; the guys that are investing their OWN MONEY and time in creating it and the guys who are conributing on a postive level to the quality of play while on line and off. Get the point? Use the BBS to air yer beefs about the sim and stay outta the textbox with the whining.
          _______________________

FISHU: I Can say that I do turn alot and maneuver very much, because I like to take plane to its limits.
         ________________________

Frankly; I don't believe it. If yah did; you'd be sportin a few more deaths on that scorecard of yours; would't you? Frankly; gettin outta the furball alive is the second biggest challenge in the sim.. and if yah was in 'em we'd know.. just by lookin at that scorecard. Be honest with yerself Fishu; yer a score-hound. And that's ok. But that scorecard DOES NOT MAKE YOU AN EXPERT PILOT, qualifed to bemoan the characteristics of an adversary AC in a beta simulation.. yer motives are suspect. It just makes you an excellent score-hound. So; be proud; yah have a fantastic score. And thats just what it is.. Fantastic. Fantasy. And pure smoke and mirrors. (of course; this is just MY opinion; I could be wrong.  )
    _____________________________ ___

FISHU: Btw. I like more fightning below 10k than above it
     _____________________________ ____

LOL..  can't pass this one up either.. tell me; do you have trouble reading your own posts??  I only ask this because one of your previous statements in the very same post said "My usual flight altitude is 20-23k, which still seems to be way below stangs and spitfries."  Well.. if yah like fighting below 10k.. whatcha doin up there? Seems ta me that's a whole lot more dive than a 109 or FW likes; and like tits.. more than a mouthfull is just wasted.  

Mr. Fishu.. I have no personal beef with yah.. this is just 'buisness'; the buisness of promoting a sense of fair play and comraderie amongst those of us who take flying more seriously than we take our wives shopping habits. There is a lot of satisfaction to be had in this sim; and if yah invest the time and energy you have wasted in whining and applied it to learning how to fly yer 190 or 109 as well as Hendrix could play a guitar then you'd be a happy camper. There are those among you (LW prefrence pilots) that have.. and do exceedingly well. And when they speak up; I listen closely; and ask respectful questions. Hristo I cannot comment about.. we apparently fly from diffent time-zones. He certainly has far more credibilty than you do at this point; and I do listen closely to what he has to say. And he says this is BETA (as I did) and it will change.

On the other hand, TOWD and I have had many many encounters, and I think he has true talent; can fly that 109 and FW very well.. he gripes all the time too; but I respect the guy cause he's demonstrated to me (and others) his willingness to run into the furball and give it his best shot. He don't give a damn about scores either.. he just want's to win the fight he's in. He howls like mad when he's hit but he's always pluggin away; tryin for the kill. THIS IS A FIGHTER PILOT! WORTHY OF RESPECT! Salute TOWD. He's doin the 'homework'; Yer Just gripin cause yer scorecard would look better if yer arch-adversary A/C (Mustang and Spitfire & B17) got de-fanged to cessna status. (again, this is just my opinion; and I could be wrong )

Finally.. my apologies; this got ugly; It need not have. Certainly; I am responsible; and I accept the mud that will come my way from this post... but I think it needed to be said; and I'll take the lumps.. gladly. I hope we meet in the air; you can obtain yer just desserts at that time.. if yer good enuff.

SALUTE!

Hang

------------------
PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8

[-floo-]

WOO HOO HANG!

(sits back and roasts a couple of hot dogs in the flames)  

------------------
-floo- fangs out
463rd Bomb Group
15th Air Force

[Laika]

-floo-, pass me one of those hotdogs, they look well done  

hmmm.. the beers aint guna stay cold for long in here ....hehehe.  

[dotsie]

I see it now...


       The Big Fight Live
"The big mouth takes one the huge head.."
     Tickets $4.00/£8.00 payable to
          dotsie@hotmail.com

           ( Fishu v Hang )

Dotsie.  

[Hangtime]

That'd be sweeeeeeeeeeet. I'll let yah keep the usal 15%. Proceeds to the Mustang Defense Leauge. Cserve rules.. level co-alt pass, guns cold. We'll say 10k since he says he like ta fight low.  

Since yer the agent; I'll let yah book the arena.  

Hang

------------------
PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8

[shower]

hangtime: as the guys at HTC have said repeatedly, damage modelling is currently completely generic.  damage is the same for ALL planes currently.  everything you said in this regard sounds nice but just proves that you're pulling this stuff out of your prettythang instead of basing it on fact.  :-)

investigating the turning discussion, i have personnally tested the 51, going a little over 400kts i quickly lowered a notch of flaps, rolled wings 90 degrees and pulled back.  i instantly blacked out, held the turn for a while, and released.  when i came to i had turned around 200 degrees, so i plugged all the info (average speed, estimated time in turn, radians of turn -1 radian is about 57 degrees- etc.) into my handy-dandy HP-48GX calculator and solved for G.  guess what?  i had made a 17 to 25G turn!  that sounds a lot like UFO status to me!

-shower

[shower]

Hangtime, i just checked your kill stats.  in the p51 you have a 1.9 to 1 kill ratio.  excellent.  for all other fighters combined  you have a 0.7 to 1 kill ratio, which is well below average.  i guess that whole "it's not the plane, it's the pilot." story was just that: a story, once again not based in fact.  :-)

-shower

[TT]

 Ouch! That pesky ol" math.

 I"ll have a winersnitziel please.

[Maniac]

*yawn*

// -nr-1-

[Hangtime]

Shower.. yes; as i have said repeatedly.. it's beta flight model; and as you point out, "same acroos the board". And any other plane in the sim will do that same unreal Blackout turn.. not a Mustang Exclusive.

as for Scores.. again; I ain't a score dweeb. Don't give a rats behind. And if yer checkin scores fer "Hangtime' check again for 'Hang'. I believe you'll find the "Hangtime' persona was checkriding other AC.. and the 'Hang' persona pretty much exclusively flys the P51.  

Hang (who am us anyway?)

------------------
PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8

[Fishu]

Hangtime,

He he, I made there over 50 streak in P-38J, then I used nose guns of B-25 to have some fun in furballs. (yes yes, the ones with manual aim and shoot, while otto sleeping)

Did I? sure don't remember that I did whine for that 45 minutes...

Ask Fariz about spitfires with altitudes, he has caught me from lower already twice, second time with P-51 and La-5, I were below them all. (lots traffic above 20k?)

Superior numbers are same as 4 or more enemies against your single lone plane, no need to feed them with easy kills.

talking about "if", well what is that mumbling coolio talking of yours then?
"yah" "ta" "yer".. honestly, you sound like an idiot  
Have you ever thought of using WEP only when you need it? I don't burn my WEP in fight all the time, only when I need it badly.

I won't talk about your style, because I don't know your fight style for sure.
I don't want to annoy people by saying all the time they fly like this and that and dont do this and that..

I keep surviving alone more harder than in a furball where enemy has alot other targets to go for.
I am sorry if I've been too hard to shoot down and I've managed to gather up too big scores, looks like you have a trouble with it. (jealous or just pissed of being shot down too many times?)

My usual flight altitude is 20-23k, but I like more fightning below 10k.
If you don't already know, fight/flight are two different words.

Mr. Hangtime.. it sure looks like you have some personal beefs, when you go so personal that you try to tell your own fictions against the truth.
Anyway, what makes you so sure of all that what you're speaking of?
ohh.. one question, are you one of those americans who keeps going and going after one thing after they hear a rumour and two?
Seems typical to me, making things bigger than it really is.

You'd be surprised if you would know how I dogfight with 109 or 190  
You can ask Camel or Bytor, I guess they have seen some of those fights and have a fair opinion of it.

Btw. long long time ago I could had join to Pale Horses, in WarBirds.. :>


..and thats it, if you cant talk without your own fictions about my flying style, fightning style, i can't think about talking with you no more, because its no worth to try speak for a rock.

I keep myself skilled flight simulator pilot, which I have succeeded with years of my own training and intrest into taking less popular planes into their limits.
No need to flame this, everyone is skilled pilot after few years.

..and ya'll stinking amateurs who can't be from being jealous and tries to mess up with their fictions, shut up.  

<The end of the imperium strikes back>

[Mr.ED]

" You imply 109 uses subsonic rounds ?"
                   
The 109 and spits used 30 cal class round that have a short ballistic curve.

The 50cal round only had to fly within 18 inchs of a human head or canopy to blow out the ear drums of the pilot, from the shock wave it creates.

[Yeager]

investigating the turning discussion, i have personnally tested the 51, going a little over 400kts i quickly lowered a notch of flaps, rolled wings 90 degrees and pulled back.
====
Shower, if you were worth the salt on your balls you would have performed this same test with all other fighters modeled in AH and posted the results.  Until then your post has no real value.

Yeager

[humble]

FROM A "VICTIM's" POINT OF VIEW....

Thought I could help put this in proper prospective for all of you. I've flown online for probably 3 yrs now (mainly AW) and came to this sim with a reasonable ACM capability,SA and T&B skills...for the enviornment I learned in.

I've been killed by EVERYONE who's any good numerous times and can comment on the thread here from the proper prospective.

1) Is the Mustang "overmodeled" ... not much if at all according to everything I can find.

2) Pilot ability in AH is a huge component of the game..as it SHOULD be. IN AW I've killed numerous pilots who are MUCH better than I because of an advantage in E and/or alt. IMHO the plane makes to much differance in AW. Here I've found the balance to be much more in line with what I believe to be correct. 90% pilot 10% plane.

I've been waxed by both Hang and Fishu and from my perspective there's little differance...both of you push your advantage hard and extend when prudent. My only squeak with either of you is you dont miss AT ALL. I'm tired of opening up at 300 and ghosting rounds thru someone (10bears told me last night sights are fubar this patch) don't know if true...but "recalibrated" per his reccomendation and hits went up.

With the exception of the 205 (which seems to have legit FM issues) all these are "Uber" planes...the best there respective nations could produce for the tasks at hand. It's those Uberpilot's that I want remodeled  .

[Mr.ED]

"Mr.Ed, 2-3k? hah! what have you been using, some modern modified .50 caliber gun,
with some depleted uranium rounds or what those were? "

Nope the Browning M2 was blueprinted in the 1890s by Mr Browning himself and built in the 1930s, It is the same gun that was used on 17s, track mounted in NAM, and currently. Heck the Navy uses the same gun today (9 of them on the Victory class Aircraft carriers as anti-pirate guns, which they engage at inside of 1 mile range. This is SOP today.

Yes the round has changed, we now (for last 20 years or so) Use a SLAP round, but still use the WWII round also.

 "I've even heard of B-17 gunners beind told not to shoot beyond 1000 yards, just to
conserve ammunition."

The reason for this was that the jerries would up many A/C and the concentration of rounds at close range would go through several A/C if bunched together.
We have a 17 tail gunner in our AW3 squadron & me uncle was on a 17 in the 8th.

".50 caliber has less effective range than heavy cannon ammo. (not to talk about how they blow)"

Not true sir, the 50 cal has the longest trajectory of any "small arms" In fact the longest sniper shot in history was with a WWII M2 in Korea, at a little over a 1/4 mile (2-3K),single shot with a 30 power scope.

As far as "blow" you must understand that a cannon shell and the 50 cal work on different principals.  The cannon round hits, explodes, then does damage by moving pieces through the vehicle hit. The 50 cal round uses its kenetic energy to displace parts of the target vehicle and using them to rip it a part.

"Don't go compare modern M2<something> with modern ammunition, to something that was its older model from WW2, with ammunition of that time."

Like I said, with the exception of the SLAP round which came shortly after WWII, the round remains the same, or as of the time I retired from the weapons field in the US Army in 1990. I had fired and worked on all these different 50 cal guns at one time in my hitch. Be it air, ground, and yes even sea.

Also If you have ever seen a P-51 50 cal, and the 50 cal chain gun in the turret of a M-60a1 tank, you would note they are the similar reciever and the MILSPEC number for the round is close to the aircraft one.
Which means the tank gun is a sister to the aircraft gun. BTW this gun uses a slightly shorter round than the M2.
Which I originally thought was the reason for the shorter distance in flgiht sims. If you watch gun cams of aircraft hitting ground targets (my fav in 51 hitting train) I would say a 1/4 mile 1200-1800 yards is a fair guess.

Having talked to the WB staff about the weenie power of thier 50 cals, and being told that yes they did tune it down, to make things "equal". Is why I tell the good folks at HTC, not to make it equal, but give the allies and the 50 cal its punch.

Mr.ED
Pony Driver
Knight