Suggestion on perk values..

[Halo]

Aaaaaaiiiiieeeeeeeeeaaaarrrrr ggggghhhhhhh!

[Kweassa]

The only person who can change Perk Planes is HTC, not you, so give up while you're ahead.

 That's what some people said about the Chog when everyone was complaining.

 Yes, HTC is the sole determinator on this subject, and they don't operate by democracy. But I don't think they will unreasonably dismiss an idea that may bring the arena into better balance and gameplay, as much as you think they will not accept a single player's 'biased' opinion.

 I'm not biased. Nor is this my opinion only.

I don't agree with perk planes fullstop and with the fuel multiplier as it is in AH2 there's going to be less of non-US planes anyway so your perk plane agenda is flawed.

  Flawed as in how?

Plus if you perk one plane players will simply move onto the next non-perk plane until that is over used and that then becomes perk. In time all planes would be perked if it followed that trend.

 Obviously you've never bothered to read the previous discussions of this subject, nor are you trying to accept this as even a remote possibility. You've never bothered to check the stats on plane usage, have you?

 There is a lot more to how the dynamics of the perk work. I don't know if its deliberate or you really think that way, but how high the points are set, influence in subtle ways how much a plane is used, and you're ignoring that fact.
 
 Whether a plane is totally "obliterated" from the arena, or simply it's usage is cut down to manageable levels, thus making other alternatives and substitute, is entirely upto how high the perks are applied.

 People move onto the "next-best" free planes. But you're automatically assuming that the "perked planes" will never be used again, thus the same number of people will populate the next best planes, and nothing will be changed.

 That's not true. Albeit a limited experiment, the regime of suggested perkage applied in the CT proves it works.

 For example a 1944 setup for instance;  the Luftwaffe mainstay of fighters are aimed to be the 109G-6, but some of 109G-10s should also exist with it. When left free, nobody flies the G-6 and the vast mainstay of people fly the G-10s.

 By your theory, applying a perk to the G-10 will also destabilize the arena and make it unhistoric(thus, unbalanced) in that there will be no G-10s, and only G-6s all around - thus, "nothing's changed".

 Well, it doesn't work that way. The arena sees a balance of G-10s and G-6s with a slighly higher usage to the G-6, but an adequate number of G-10s flying beside it.

 So, how's that possible? The "next best plane" in this case is the G-6. But clearly the "next best" is in an inferior class to the "best", while the "best" are perked, but cheaply.

 What happens, is the cheap 3 point perk is viewed as a fair deal - a limiting factor high enough to stop the 1944-based arena by totally overrun by the G-10, but not high enough to totally dismiss the arena of its existence. The end result is the number of G-6s flying around with number of G-10s is roughly equal.

 And is that not a "balance" and "variety" achieved?

 ...

 In terms of the MA I'm looking forward to the same effect.

 Take the La-7 for instance. My specific objecctive, is to bring down the 10% La-7 usage to about 4%~5%. Your logic, is that when the La-7 is perked, the same 10% will entirely move over to the "next best" La-5FN.

 It is very likely the La-7 pilots will use La-5FN, as they are very simular planes with minor differences in handling and speed. Some people will, yes, move over to the La-5FN.

 But the question that holds true, is the applied  perk price. In order for your argument to be true, you must assume either;

1) That people will not fly the La-7 at all because they cannot afford it(or rather, the cost-effectiveness of newly perked La-7 is so unworthy that people will entirely give up on flying the La-7)

 or

2) There is another free plane, roughly in the same class of performance and arena impact, for the people to simply move over and indulge in.

 or, both 1) and 2).

 Assumption 1) is proven to be wrong, at least in the CT. Cheap perks cut down the overall usage, but it still maintains some constant usage while the rest of the percentage of plane use is distributed to the "next best". People do start fly "next best" planes, but not all of them.

 Assumption 2), has no basis, since ALL of the section of the planes with simular performance/arena impact, are also perked.
 

I'll await what HTC have to say, not you.

 Then you might as well not started the response in the first place. Or is it just another way of saying "shut up. I don't wanna talk to you anymore"?

[Kweassa]

Batz

 Now that you put it that way, yes, in fact it is sort of a "welfare" perk system. Or rather, a mere alternative suggestion on the standards for choosing which planes should be perked and which not.

So? How is this a problem? If they cared about perk planes they know what they need to do to earn the perks to fly them.

 Again the "veteran mindset" you show, Batz.

 You yourself can kill any plane any average pilot flies, with any of the wide variety of choices AH planeset offers. By that your assuming that automatically, everybody in the game should try to become as high in skill as you, and if they never get a chance to fly they want its always their fault.

 The same doesn't hold true for the rest of us. The majority of us, in fact.

 How's that a problem? Since the average skill level attained in the arena remains constant, and all motivations towards becoming better pilots for specific rewards are discouraged, the end result is people forget about the perk system as a whole, and just fly whatever planes they can achieve any successful kills with.

 And since the whole arena is full of free late-war, high-performance rides.. to at least maintain marginal success to be satisfactory, people stay in the "Big Five" and don't move over.

 Voila, there you have it.

 The very source of endless complaints people come up with - noobs, regulars, veterans alike -.. on how the arena is the same planes over and over again. How the horde mentality ruins the fun. How many mid-war/early-war planes are left hangar queens and such effort put into development wasted shamefully.

 The stagnance of MA gameplay never bothered you at all?

 Because, after seeing the past year, seeing many old fliers and veterans announce they are disappointed of what the MA has become, and announce that they will quit and go away because they can't find or meet any fun, various, satisfactory, different situations any more.. I had to think that something, was starting look foul in the MA.

 Maybe(that's a "Maybe", mind you,) you all consider them losers, or deserters who quit AH, and you don't care about them or what they think.

 But to me, that means that the same thing can happen to any one of us, and there's always a possibility that this, may ultimately in the future, become a source of stagnant gameplay which simularly brought Warbirds to ruins(although there were a lot more factors in WB working).

 Just look at the split reactions of AH2. Many people are delighted to see some fine upgrades and subtle changes, which they consider it to be vibrant enough to renew their interest in the game.

 But undenyingly, many other people also feel the opposite - they expected more of AH2, maybe graphics or systemwise, but ulitmately, they're disappointed because the same sort of toubling nature of the MA which they somehow hoped would be cured in AH2, was not.

 Are we gonna dismiss all of them as unworthy complaints, saying how its all their fault that they don't feel content, and we don't care whether they quit or not?

So what if they don’t care?

 Oops.. right. You don't care. Disregard the above, long, statement. *Shrugs*


 ....

That’s here nor there. What it does do is keep perk planes rare as it was designed to do.

 Your repeating the moot point again.
 
 The problem here, is the question, "Should they be rare", not "Does the perk system work?".

 So tell me, should the Spit14 be rare?

With 60% of the arena flying the top 5 planes the odds of them accumulating enough perks to fly perk planes regularly is slim. That’s a good thing because we don’t need any more timid runners. We need more of those planes folks like to fight in.

 The timid runner planes are gonna be perked also. Remember the "perk the whole section" comment?

 In fact, while the perks on some planes like the Spit14 and F4U-4 is suggested to be lowered drastically(that's two planes), a whole new, 10 planes, which about half of them is what you would consider "timid runnders", is suggested to be newly perked at 3~4 points.

 Overall, that's a lot, and I mean LOT of less timid runners then it ever is now.

 Spit14s and F4U-4s may see more usage, but then P-51Ds, Fw190D-9s, Bf109G-10s, P-47D-30s, P-38Ls(I'm willing to accept an waiver on this one until an earlier variant surfaces), La-7s, Typhoons, F4U-1Ds, and etc etc are all suggested to be perked at 3, with specific goals of reducing their usage to 50% its normal rate.  

 ALL the "timid runners" are gonna be perked, and reduced in usage, while the mid-war planes as a substitute, will see more usage. If you don't like "timid runners", you're actually gonna enjoy the NPA then hate it, because you're gonna see a lot less of them.

Planes like the la7, Spits, Yaks, etc... Not Temp or F4U-4s running about boring every one.

 Temps are suggested at 30 perks. 8 points reduced a 20% usage plane to 2% in the case of the Chog... 30 points, is plenty enough to keep them rare.

 You think 30 points is easy cake to average pilots that constitute the majority of AH pilots? It takes me a week to get 30 points, Batz. Don't use your standards on how you get 20 perks a single sortie, for crying out loud!!

 Reducing ot 30 points is not to double the Tempest presence or something - it's merely  to make it a more realistic goal.

That’s the problem with the p51d now. It dies more then any other plane in those suicide pork and augers “mishuns” the rest of the time it’s running.

 Yes. It's overused.

 It's a multi-role fighter with the 2nd best range in the game, very high deck speed and survivability, but also carries a heavy ordnance load, which makes it one of the most favored jabo planes in the game, alongside the P-38L and the Typhoon.

 People overuse it because if they don't auger, they can dive at full speed, lob 2k bombs and 6xHVARs, and then runaway at full speed. Why risk a Mossie or a 110 or an IL-2,  when you got Typhoons, Mustangs and P-38Ls?

 That's, why its suggested to be perked.


(continued)

[detch01]

Kweassa you make some very good points in your post.
I'd like to see it, or something similar to it implemented when AH2 goes live. I fly the pony d almost exclusively in the MA now and to be honest, if AH2 is more of the same... well I'll blow that bridge up when I get to it .

Cheers,

[Kweassa]

(continued)

Put these same types of pilots in cheap perks and the arena doesn’t get better, it gets more timid (oh got to protect my precious perk plane) and more boring.

 The same type of pilots, aren't going to fly a 3 point plane in potentially dangerous missions. You're thinking in the "veteran mindset" Batz, the "veteran mindset" !!!

 Those guys fly high-performance planes timidly, because with their average level of skill that sort of speed and dive capability is the only thing that at least marginally increases their survivability.

 3 points is cheap, but like you said the P-51D for instance, sees high usage but dies a lot. Average guys like us, die a lot despite the plane is so high in performance. That means a constant bleeding in 3 points. Up five sorties with five deaths and no kills, and that's 15 points blown away. Us average guys rarely land our planes. Our sorties are like 10 minutes - fly to the enemy field, bomb, auger by making a mistake.

 Fly for 2 hours and its 12 sorties. If we die in all of them that's 36 point blown away if we use the P-51D exclusively.

 This kind of loss is something no average pilot can afford. You don't understand this burden because earning perks is so easy for you.

 So they can, like you say, 1) fly timidly(meaning? They aren't gonna suicide pork things!!!), or, 2) they are gonna use a different plane to do the job., or 3) they are gonna start practicing accurate and safe way to bomb and strafe stuff.

 All of what can happen is actullay good to the arena:

1) If they fly timidly, they will be only doing limited A2A missions. The suicidal porkers ruining the arena with insane drive, will be reduced in numbers.

2) If the use different planes; if they use free, mid-war fighters, they carry typicall only 500~1000lbs ordnance. The destructive effect of kamikazes are reduced almost in half. If they use specialized jabo planes, their more easily intecepted, than the free "dive-to-the-field-suicidal-fashion" P-51s or Typhoons you see now.

3) If they actually start practicing to not  die, then they will be motivated to become better pilots, and naturally meet some of the aspects of AH combat which they weren't interested before - like challenges in playing/trying different planes, etc etc.

 

Folks won’t fly temps and Spit 14s to run down 51s, that’s to risky they will use them to club baby seals.

 Folks who can use Tempies regularly(folks who can risk 30 point loss without turning pale ), are already someone who can club babyseals in whatever plane they fly.

 Folks who cannot risk 30 point losses, are folks who wouldn't fly them in most cases, which will keep the arena relatively clear of the rare planes.

 The Spit14?

 It's 3 points. Fly timid? Surely they will fly less timid than when it was 60 points, don't you think?!
 

Are telling me what I think?

Perks are of no value unless you care about perk planes. You claim "no one cares about perks" then otoh hand act as if something is missing because most folks don’t use them or care enough to do what’s necessary to get them..

 I'm saying folks choose to ignore perks because the prices set on some of the planes are so high, that they feel its an unrealistic goal in the first place. There is a circumstantial effect in their choosing to forget about the perked planes.

 Differ the circumstances, then they will start caring about them. Why leave them and don't care about them, when there is a way to welcome them all to the system without being felt left out?

They are fine just like they are.

 They're fine because you personally don't care what others feel, as long as you fly your own way.

 However, the rest of "them", which happens to be average guys like us, which also happen to be the vast majority in the Main Arena, may think differently. That's why I commented "the meek, inherited this Earth".

 

If a player has a real desire to fly one he can do what everyone else has to do. There's no reason to make them more available to the very people you say don’t care about them.

 Desire is not always of one's own emotions. Desires are effected vastly by how the environment revolves around us. Desire, is not tabula rasa.

 There are ways to help people feel more motivated, and feel stronger desires to achieving something.

 And ultimately, if a system can help people feel motivated to try harder and become better pilots, is that not a good thing?

They have trouble earning perks because of the planes they fly and how they fly them. You want to "reward" their “mediocrity” or "herdism" by making perks cheap because somehow you feel that these folks need access to perk planes even though they don’t care about them as you said above.

 They have trouble earning perks because of the planes they fly and how the fly it. They fly those planes in that fashion because flying any other plane with inferior performance, is not gonna let them earn any kills(perks) at all in the first place.

 By their standards in skill, they must endure at least some many months of constant deaths with hardly any return for it, to fly a 262 for a single sortie, in an environemnt of the MA which has turned much harsher than it used to be over the years. They have either face hordes of enemies in an inferior plane with higher ENY, or fly with hordes of planes to even survive for a while in a such inferior plane, which rarely gets them any chance to even meet an enemy.

 The arena is not constant Batz. It's not what it used to be. Life for the n00b and the average, is incredibly harder than it used to be when the arena was only 200 people.

 It's a vicious circle of demoralization, stagnance in skill level and plane choices, which leads to even more demoralization.

So? They can find a trainer, modify their behavior etc... Who cares if they never get to fly one?

 Right, again, you don't care. *Shrugs*

I am not communist so I don’t care anything about "workers rights". If they want it then they can go out and work for it like everyone else. If they aren’t up to it then they need to learn to accept that and try to find some harmony in understanding their place.

 Who cares if its communistic? This is a virtual world where anything can be changed. In the real world a communist experiment have to put real people's lives on line like guinea pigs. This MA world, anything can be changed by the words of HT almighty.

 So if its easier for everyone to become richer, is that not a good thing? It's not like I'm suggesting all the planes should be perk-free. I'm actually suggesting some planes made be more expensive than it ever was(which was free...), compared to a marginal few planes which are made cheaper.

 

The price range for perks is reasonable as they are. They aren’t beyond anyone’s reach.

 No Batz, they aren't beyond your reach. They're beyond the average guys reach.

 

 If properly motivated they can do what is necessary so they can afford them or do with out.

 How are they gonna be motivated when they feel its out of their reach? Is  it easier to make all the people start feeling differently? Or is it easier to change the price tag?

 If the suggested experimental price of 100 for 262s or 30 for Tempies is too cheap and indeed, makes the arena suddenly abundant of them, then HTC can always rasie their prices a little bit and see if it helps! Like how Pyro experiments by adjusting with ENY and OBJ, I'm suggesting an adjustment with different perk prices.

 I'm not saying I'm the ultimate truth of this world so o' follow my footsteps. I'm asking for a chance to see if it works out.

No HTC perk subsidies; no perk plane affirmative action; and no welfare perk system.

 No reason to say no, if they work and work well. Ultimately, there's only one way to find out.

Because some one desires something and then aren’t willing to put in the effort to get it doesn’t mean its "unfair" despite the whining they do.

 
 So you're actually saying the Spit14 being perked at 60, while the La-7, P-51D, Fw190D-9 and the Bf109G-10, comparable in performance, high in arena impact, historically in the same timeline, run rampant in the MA for free of charge, is not unfair?

RAF guys can jump in Spit 5 or a hurri and go out and earn those perk to get their spit 14.

 While we Luftwaffles can just merrily pick a Fw190D-9 and a Bf109G-10 for free, without having to work our prettythang off to earn 60~70 perks with a Bf109F-4?

 By the way, the Spit5 and Spit9 are vastly lower in ENY than the Bf109F-4 and the Bf109G-2.

 That may be because many "dweebs" overuse those planes, but for the true-blue RAF planes who fly Spits because they really love that plane, it's an unfair advantage.

 We Luftwaffles get the "best plane" of our set for free. The RAF fans(ironically, which I am accused of being biased against...) get their best plane which doesn't considerably outperform our best planes, with a price of 60.

 Same with the USN fans. They get their "Best plane", for 50. While USAAF and LW types get theirs free of charge.

 So is that really fair?

[nopoop]

Some very good points KW.

It's worth a looksee.

[Karnak]

Frankly I don't care what the cost of the Spit XIV is.  As long as it says "SPIT14" under it I have no desire to pay points to experience a gangbang.  It isn't fast enough to run at the altitudes the fighting happens in AH and it's climb rate (always short duration) has been reduced in AH2.

Frankly, to me, the Spit XIV is useless.  It's performance is too low to survive the attention it draws in anything other than expert hands.

I have about 1400 perk points.

[Urchin]

The Spit 14 should be unperked, in my opinion.  It is completely different than the Spit 9... so much different that I'd wager the "Spit 9/Nik crowd" wouldn't even fly it.  It is more of a 109G6 type plane, in my opinion.  Vastly better firepower though.

F4U4 is a blue La-7, not really sure why it is perked.  It doesn't have Hizookas, which is the only reason the F4U-1C gets flown at all.

The Ta-152 is garbage, it wouldn't be flown even if it were unperked.  Maybe if the average fight in the MA was at 47K people would use it, but as it is the plane is fairly worthless.  

Tempest is an La-7 with Hizookas.  It has better vertical performance than the La-7, but it doesn't turn as well.  It accelerates a teensy-weensy itty-bitty bit faster too.  The Hizookas make the plane.. the performance isn't anything special.

262 is worthless imo, but I can see why it is perked.  No fun chasing around doofii (plural for doofus) that can't shoot straight and don't know how to energy fight.


If the fuel burn rate issue really knocks down the number of La-7s I'll be surprised.  And the 109G10/190D9 would make an extraordinarily poor substitute, so you won't see any La-7 drivers switching to them.  My guess would be the P-51, or maybe the Typhoon, depending on how the La-7 flyer likes to "fight".  I use the term fight really loosely there.

[moot]

Ta152 is garbage

lol
kind of like Ducatis are garbage because they don't breathe fire like JPN equivalents!

[Replicant]

Originally posted by Kweassa
 Obviously you've never bothered to read the previous discussions of this subject, nor are you trying to accept this as even a remote possibility. You've never bothered to check the stats on plane usage, have you?

No I spoke to Pyro direct.  I spoke with Pyro regarding the perk plane set. They're going to make a few little changes, i.e. updating the values and may add another plane to the perk planeset. They have no plans on perking more like you suggest Kweassa because they feel it would force people into the non-perk planes which will then get perked for 'overuse', in other words, a cascade effect.

 

People move onto the "next-best" free planes. But you're automatically assuming that the "perked planes" will never be used again, thus the same number of people will populate the next best planes, and nothing will be changed.

 That's not true. Albeit a limited experiment, the regime of suggested perkage applied in the CT proves it works.

Well HTC disagree, and I think they know more about flight sims than you.

Then you might as well not started the response in the first place. Or is it just another way of saying "shut up. I don't wanna talk to you anymore"?

No, it's just that I've never seen someone talk so much in my life!  

[oboe]

Personally I'd just be interested to see what would happen if the top 4 or 5 used planes in the MA were perked at 1 point each for a tour or two.   We've got real good numbers to for % arena kills by aircraft for many tours for comparison.

HTC may be right when they say that perking planes forces people into the next best non-perk planes, but alot of that has to do with the high perk costs they set.    1 point isn't going to break any banks, but it does create a barrier to costant and continued loss of the same plane.    Eventually, pilots will have to try something else, if only for a sortie or two.

I could certainly live under Kweassa's NPA regime as well, but its a pretty massive change, based on K's complex analysis and theories.    Either way, I'd prefer action by HTC over inaction.   When the perk system was introduced, HTC said we could expect experimentation and tweaking with it, but they've really done very little of that.

Count me in as one who is looking for more changes in AH2 than just the graphics/FM/gunnery/damage models.     I'm hoping for something that will give the routine main arena play a kick in the pants.   The recent changes to fuel strat are a good example.

[straffo]

Originally posted by Kweassa
Or does the RAF squads necessarily need a plane that carries 2000lbs ordnance load, quad hispanos, and outruns every other unperked fighter on deck, to be competitive?

I've never see this as an advantage .
The slow climb rate of the typhoon combined with the idiotic fuel multiplier is prefect to pork the Typhoon.

The Typhoon is perhaps the perfect runner down low but don't forget we're not making a dragster competition being faster AND lower as no purpose in the MA.

The key advantage of the Typhoon (the high cruise speed) in her historical role is killed by a game play concession .

[Batz]

No I spoke to Pyro direct. I spoke with Pyro regarding the perk plane set. They're going to make a few little changes, i.e. updating the values and may add another plane to the perk planeset. They have no plans on perking more like you suggest Kweassa because they feel it would force people into the non-perk planes which will then get perked for 'overuse', in other words, a cascade effect.

Sounds good to me...

[Tilt]

Firstly I must appologise for not having read all the above............


However from the proposal made I assume the presently most popular plane.............the Spit 9 would then dominate the arena in terms of % utilisation.

[Replicant]

Originally posted by Tilt
Firstly I must appologise for not having read all the above............


However from the proposal made I assume the presently most popular plane.............the Spit 9 would then dominate the arena in terms of % utilisation.

I think the type of terrain, which country you fight and time of play influences what aircraft is used.

For the past TWO tours only, my most kills of are:

Yak-9T - 20
Yak-9U - 18
Spit9 - 65
Seafire - 28
P51D - 57
N1K2 - 75
La7 - 66
F6F - 31
205 - 19
F4U-1D - 29
P38L - 28
P47-30 - 27
Hurr2C - 20
Ju88 - 58
B17G - 32
B26B - 43
Bf110G2 - 24

To me I was surprised to see so many 205s and Yaks lately.