Furballers -vs- Timid Pilots

[mars01]

You first learned to angles fight...as I have stated 99% do.

Hmm I just told you how it was for me, then you turn around and tell me how I learned this game.  I am starting to think Beetle is one of Zazens shade accounts.

I started Bore and Zooming pal.  Climb high look for a easy kill cherry pick, dive down on top of him real fast and kill him, then zoom climb back up.  I tried to jump into the furballs but it was useless.  I didn't learn anything about angles or stall fighting by doing that so I stoped and played from a perch.  Typical though that you would sit there and tell me how I learned the game.

Once again, to you guys that keep saying E fighting is not timid.  NO ONE SAID E-FIGHTING WAS TIMID.  NOT FIGHTING IS TIMID.

I could care less what kind of fighting you are doing as long as you are engaging and fighting.  You guys that are trying to turn this into a Stall fight Vs Efight are in the wrong thread.

With both planes at high speed, a Typhoon will cut an amazing instant turn compared to the Spit. If that allows it to force a headon shot, it already has twice as much chance of scoring a kill. The Typhoon also accelerates better than the Spit.

Exactly Lev, same thing is true for a 51, but he would never try to match the two up because he has the blinders on (see quote below)

Originally Posted by: ZazenTaking an aircraft out of its designed context for the sake of amusing your adversary is just foolhardy. It's not cowardice that makes the Typhoon pilot decline an angles fight with a Spit V, it's common sense.

[Urchin]

Originally posted by Zazen13


For example, A Tyhpoon is faster than a Spit right? Put that spit 5k above the Typhoon near the ground, who has the potential to be faster now? The Typhoon has lost his only advantage so can neither out-run nor out-manuever the Spit.

Ok, now take the same Typhoon and Spit, the Spit easily outturns the Typhoon right ? Can you think of any situation where the Typhoon could potentially outturn the Spit? Nope, there is none, the Typhoon cannot take away the Spitfire's advantage in any hypothetical situation.

Angles fighters are for more forgiving of mistakes, especially mental ones involving SA and TA. You make an error in energy estimation in an E fighter and you're history, you have no recourse once you are at an energy disadvantage against an opponent with superior manueverability. You make that same error in an angles fighter and you just pull some G's, spoil his shot and work the angles back to neutral or for an advantage and a guns solution. An angles fighter never loses his intrinsic manueverability advantage, an energy fighter can lose its speed advantage very easily.


Zazen

I basically only want to address two points here.  First, yes, I can think of a situation where the Typhoon will "out-turn" the Spit.  That situation would be any nose-to-nose turn where the Spitfire is moving substantially faster than the Typhoon.  Furthermore, if the Spitfire dives on your Typhoon, and you break so as to cause a nose-to-nose condition after the initial "merge" (i.e. he dives, overshoots, and turns into you while you are turning back into him), and the Typhoon does not beat the Spitfire around, you know it is now safe to run because his temporary speed advantage is all gone.  

Second point I'd like to address- "Boom and Zooming" is inherently safer than angles fighting.  A misjudgement in the opponents energy state while Boom and Zooming is not likely to be disasterous unless you have very poor judgement indeed.  Typically, the only judgement you need to make before "boom and zooming" any number of enemies is "Am I higher, and am I faster?"  What I call "pure" energy fighting is probably the most risky, because you are actually engaging in a fight with the enemy trying to bleed his energy down actively.  If you make a small misjudgement of his energy state, you die.  

That is one case where a Typhoon pilot that knows how to angles fight will easily escape, while one that does not will likely just try to floppy fish his way out of trouble.

[SlapShot]

I am starting to think Beetle is one of Zazens shade accounts.

I think your on to something here ...

Urching and TC have described perfectly the "timid" pilot.

Most guys that "E" fight, and there are very few of them, are not timid by any strech on one's imagination.

Excellent E fighters that I have run into :

JBs - especially JB42
Steve
DmdDano
Urchin
ManeTMP
Kappa

Just a couple of weeks ago I ran across, I believe, a 190 co-alt and I was in a Spit V. He showed me his 6 and I decided to chase for a little while, not expecting him to turn and fight, but hoping.

Well at about 1.5 out, the 190 turns back into me. I figured, 1 pass and if he doesn't kill me on the HO, he will then bug out ... very typical of a 190. Well, there is no HO attempt at the merge ... hmmmm. I look behind expecting to see the 190 to fly the straight line to freedom. Well, this 190 didn't fly straight, it had already reversed and was back at me. Whoa !!!

At this point, the fight was on, and I had all I could do defensivly to keep this 190 from getting a guns solution on me. I finally got myself into an offensive position and got a real nice snapshot on the 190 and got an oil hit. At that point, 190 dove out of the fight and with its superior speed left the area (this is not considered running in my book).

The man behind that stick was Urchin. I had a blast. Following him then lead to another excellent fight with Stang in an F4-U-1. Two unbelievable fights in one sortie ... true nirvana.

If everybody who flys the 190 or "E" style planes, would fly it, or try to fly it, like Urchin, the fights and fun would be off the hook. "E" fighters, if flown right, can whip the snot out of most Spit flyers.

Getting better at any of these "disciplines" requires, I would believe, one to die alot ... you can only truely learn by your mistakes and mistakes in this game means death.

If you are realitivly new at this game and are AFRAID to die, then you will inevitable turn into a Bore-N-Zoom pilot.

[thrila]

Just a quick post, i have to go to work in 5 mins.

I have to agree with slapshot.  Unless you voluntry get into bad situations you will never gain the necessary experience get out of them should it arise.  I don't usually have much trouble dealing with high spits.  They bleed veyr little E, causing them to overshoot very easily.

I enjoy E fighting,  but i also like to mix it up.  Often it's not by choice as the mossie doesn't have the acceleration, climb or level speed to avoid it.  For me aggression is the key to a lot of victories,  most cons just do not expect it.

[Wotan]

You would be wise to listen to Levi and Urchin.

You may not care to fly any other way that what is comfortable to you. But using absolutes to describe certain planes and styles just shows that you have a lot to learn. Which is fine as we all do, especially me.

"Furballing" doesn’t equal dying a lot. That seems to be that attitude of a lot of folks. You can furball and fly to live at the same time. Furball doesn't mean flying around in circles at 500ft until you get shot down. Usually you don’t see the furballer all that up tight about being shot down in this 1st place. But that doesn't mean he doesn't intend on rtb'ing.

Energy fighting is about tricking the other guy into burning his e while preserving your own. B-n-Z is a type of energy fighting but not in the way the timid fly it. They basically "half-arsed pass and run".

An aggressive player will come in force you to break with a deliberate pass then climb up and be right back in before you can recover. He maintains his e advantage by making you respond to him. He bleeds you out and shots you down.

Pure energy fighting as Urchin describes is difficult. What you describe is not. Screwing up your SA as if some how it is a "learned" skill in an arena with 6k huge icons with range/closure indicators and a gps clipboard map and in-flight radar is laughable.

By diving in at high speed and flat level extensions to "escape" there's not much chance in "giving up separation". If flown correctly your high speed pass will leave the bad guy responding to you. Just climb up into a pitch back and you be can right back on him and if he breaks again he looses more energy. You simply repeat. Once he's spent you have him.

No one is telling you how to fly or have fun. Just try not to say that your way is the only way.

Regards,

Wotan

[Redd]

Kills per hour has to be one sign of timidity doesn't it.

There's a guy who fly's your typical 20K BNzzzz P51 in PAC time that struggles to get 2 kills per hour . Actually his entire squad fly the same way , the squad averages about 3 kills per hour. I think they are trained in boring Bnzzz.

Admittedly it's a little harder in a smaller arena with ave 80-120 players to rack up the kills per hour but  jeez , how could you get excited about the game consistently averaging 2 an hour.

[Midnight]

OK. I've been reading this thread since I started it. Some guys making the "Bore and Zoom" claims were making me wonder.... That was until the other night...

I was flying with a couple squaddies over an enemy airfield trying to shoot down anything that dared leave the AAA umbrella. Well, along comes this high P-51D and I think now I've got to worry about this guy and loose my E advantage over the  low bandits.

Long story short, this guy became the exact description of what some of you have been talking about all along... Zoom,, go almost a sector away, come back.. zoom.. repeat.

Heh.. and all this time I was thinking some of remarks were being pointed at my flying style.

Anyhow, I'll post the film when I get home later.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Urchin
I basically only want to address two points here.  First, yes, I can think of a situation where the Typhoon will "out-turn" the Spit.  That situation would be any nose-to-nose turn where the Spitfire is moving substantially faster than the Typhoon.  Furthermore, if the Spitfire dives on your Typhoon, and you break so as to cause a nose-to-nose condition after the initial "merge" (i.e. he dives, overshoots, and turns into you while you are turning back into him), and the Typhoon does not beat the Spitfire around, you know it is now safe to run because his temporary speed advantage is all gone.  

Second point I'd like to address- "Boom and Zooming" is inherently safer than angles fighting.  A misjudgement in the opponents energy state while Boom and Zooming is not likely to be disasterous unless you have very poor judgement indeed.  Typically, the only judgement you need to make before "boom and zooming" any number of enemies is "Am I higher, and am I faster?"  What I call "pure" energy fighting is probably the most risky, because you are actually engaging in a fight with the enemy trying to bleed his energy down actively.  If you make a small misjudgement of his energy state, you die.  

That is one case where a Typhoon pilot that knows how to angles fight will easily escape, while one that does not will likely just try to floppy fish his way out of trouble.

I agree that strictly 'Boom and Zooming" is safer than Angles fighting, But Energy Fighting is NOT safer, your margin for error is very thin, you misjudge his E or yours even by a tiny bit and you're dead.

As far as your nose-to-nose turn goes, why would the Spit blow his E advantage? As thrila says the Spit holds it's E better than any plane, the Typhoon does not holds it's E well at all through any manuever, it would bleed E badly thorugh that turn. The Spitfire should be able to keep the Typhoon 'cornered' for a long time in the above scenario. The Typhoon does not out-acclerate a Spitfire enough to make any difference.

Zazen

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
With both planes at high speed, a Typhoon will cut an amazing instant turn compared to the Spit.  If that allows it to force a headon shot, it already has twice as much chance of scoring a kill.  The Typhoon also accelerates better than the Spit.

So no, the Spit does not enjoy an absolute advantage.

-- Todd/Leviathn

If the Typhoon is getting dove on as is my example near the ground, there is little room to accelerate after a manuever and any nose-to-nose turn by the Typhoon would serve to only temporarily negate the Spit's advantage. The Typhoon will have blown alot of E compared to the Spit doing that, the Typhoon should not be able to escape, look at the charts, a Typhoon does not have a very significant accleration advantage over a Spitfire. I can't find the data, but from my experience a Typhoon does not have an instantaneous turnrate advantage over a Spit at any speed. Spits actually handle very well at speed in AH.

Zazen

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Redd
Kills per hour has to be one sign of timidity doesn't it.

There's a guy who fly's your typical 20K BNzzzz P51 in PAC time that struggles to get 2 kills per hour . Actually his entire squad fly the same way , the squad averages about 3 kills per hour. I think they are trained in boring Bnzzz.

Admittedly it's a little harder in a smaller arena with ave 80-120 players to rack up the kills per hour but  jeez , how could you get excited about the game consistently averaging 2 an hour.

Yes, the problem here is definition. Urchin and others using Boom and Zooming as though it were synonymous with Energy Fighting creates the misperception that is what energy fighting is. Anyone who strictly Boom and Zooms and calls that Energy Fighting is like a TnB pilot only uses flat break turns and calls that angles fighting. I totally agree that people who only Boom and Zoom and 'extend' a sector and half after each pass are timid to the point of ineffectual. My question is, if that person, who obviously has no clue wtf they are doing, extends into infinity why do they bother you guys so much? I encounter the same people in the MA, I just laugh at them and continue on my merry way killing their buddies while they 'extend'.

Zazen

[SlapShot]

Zaz

How does thrila saying ...

I don't usually have much trouble dealing with high spits. They bleed veyr little E, causing them to overshoot very easily.

equate to you saying ...

As thrila says the Spit holds it's E better than any plane

That statement is so blatantly wrong, I found it hard to believe that you said it.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Redd
Kills per hour has to be one sign of timidity doesn't it.

There's a guy who fly's your typical 20K BNzzzz P51 in PAC time that struggles to get 2 kills per hour . Actually his entire squad fly the same way , the squad averages about 3 kills per hour. I think they are trained in boring Bnzzz.

Admittedly it's a little harder in a smaller arena with ave 80-120 players to rack up the kills per hour but  jeez , how could you get excited about the game consistently averaging 2 an hour.

That's interesting, 3 kills per hour is really bad. Keep in mind though kills/hour is also greatly affected by the climb rate of your chosen ride, the time at which you play (low MA #'s means more hunting time) and return to base time. Someone who flies a bad climber and returns to base after almost every hop will have a relatively low kills/time. Also, people who do not just defend their own bases but fly away from their base to interdict and CAP in enemy territory will have a lower K/T. Also, people, like myself, who refuse to vulch fields will have a lower K/T. This does not mean that they aren't as effective in combat, it just means a greater portion of their air time is spent in non-combat flying. I calculated it once for myself, I spend 3/4 of my total air time getting to altitude/re-alting as necessary, getting to the fight, and returning to base.

The best kills/time is to be had from cv defense/attack, I know several people who do this almost exclusively and have some of the highest k/t in the MA camp in and camp out. This doesn't mean they are more effective than anyone else, it's just, simply,  a by-product of the nature of the fighting they pursue.

I would even go so far as to say, the lower the K/D ratio of the average pilot the higher their K/T and vice-versa, on average. They are almost mutually exclusive sub-ranks.

Zazen

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by SlapShot
Zaz

How does thrila saying ...

I don't usually have much trouble dealing with high spits. They bleed veyr little E, causing them to overshoot very easily.

equate to you saying ...

As thrila says the Spit holds it's E better than any plane

That statement is so blatantly wrong, I found it hard to believe that you said it.

That's what it means Slappy. Not sure what the problem is, the Spit retains it's E better than any plane. That is the same as saying the Spit bleeds very little E. Two sides of the same coin.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by SlapShot

If you are realitivly new at this game and are AFRAID to die, then you will inevitable turn into a Bore-N-Zoom pilot.

I agree that if you are new to the game you should not Energy fight first. It requires alot more experience to judge relative E states than it does to judge angles in  angles fighting. Why anyone new to the game would be 'afraid' of anything is beyond my comprehension. I haven't met a newbie yet who was afriad to die, in fact those are the guys upping repeatedly at CAP'd fields just looking for instant action/experience.

Zazen

[SlapShot]

Originally posted by Zazen13
Yes, the problem here is definition. Urchin and others using Boom and Zooming as though it were synonymous with Energy Fighting creates the misperception that is what energy fighting is. Anyone who strictly Boom and Zooms and calls that Energy Fighting is like a TnB pilot only uses flat break turns and calls that angles fighting. I totally agree that people who only Boom and Zoom and 'extend' a sector and half after each pass are timid to the point of ineffectual. My question is, if that person, who obviously has no clue wtf they are doing, extends into infinity why do they bother you guys so much? I encounter the same people in the MA, I just laugh at them and continue on my merry way killing their buddies while they 'extend'.

Zazen

Are you reading the same posts as I am. I think that Urchin made quite a distinction between an E fighter and a BnZ fighter and a Bore-N-Zoom fighter, in which he supported E fighting and BnZ fighting, but thumbs his nose (or some other body part on one's hand) at Bore-N-Zoom fighting.

I typically laugh at those types too Zaz (BnZ), but what some of us would like to do is convince them to mix it up ... and lets have fun.