Author Topic: No (more) guns please - we're British (Read 6684 times)

AKIron · « **Reply #225 on:** October 22, 2004, 09:12:39 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by SC-Sp00k
Which is worth more to you?

Your child or your rights?

Why do I have to choose? I protect both. If you won't you may lose one or both.

GtoRA2 · « **Reply #226 on:** October 22, 2004, 09:18:16 PM »

Spook
show me how anyone of the guns, anyone one of the gun owners on this board owns resulted in a death of a kid. (or anyone)

I know tons of gun owners. I know none who ever injured another person with a gun.

I know very few who have ever had a gun stolen.

You argument is so bad, I can hardly believe anyone takes you seriously.

You seem to think gun ownership WILL result in deaths in most cases, you are so wrong it is sad.

Gun ownership may result in deaths in a few cases on accident, but far fewer then almost any other accident you can have.

Sure many people die in the US from guns, but the vast majority are criminals offing each other. Most do not own guns legaly. Nor would guns bans stop them from getting guns and using them to off each other.

P.S I have powerpoint and the link still does not work.

SC-Sp00k · « **Reply #227 on:** October 22, 2004, 09:37:04 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by GtoRA2
Spook
show me how anyone of the guns, anyone one of the gun owners on this board owns resulted in a death of a kid. (or anyone)

You show me yours and ill show you mine. I would hope noone on this BBS has ever experienced it. That doesnt change the facts. It happens. Its more likely to happen in your country than mine. The mathematics is in the numbers.

I know very few who have ever had a gun stolen.

I dont doubt it. Why would anyone need to steal one. Everyone seems to have one anyway

You argument is so bad, I can hardly believe anyone takes you seriously.

Presently im debating. Present me a valid arguement to mine and ill listen. Your yet to do it. A lot of small statements like that above do not qualify as anything more informative than dribble. At least Laz puts some effort into his statements.

You seem to think gun ownership WILL result in deaths in most cases, you are so wrong it is sad.

Whats sad is your assuming. Never assume. It makes an prettythang out of u and me

I have never said what your implying at all. Nor have I said gun ownership is a bad thing. I have said, Gun ownership without control measures in place is a bad thing.

Gun ownership may result in deaths in a few cases on accident, but far fewer then almost any other accident you can have.

Not sure where this statement is coming from. How many is enough for you?

Sure many people die in the US from guns, but the vast majority are criminals offing each other. Most do not own guns legaly. Nor would guns bans stop them from getting guns and using them to off each other.

So the alternative then is to arm the population and hope that return fire is the best deterent? Rather than crime prevention, you advocate a pro-active defense measure instead?
If the Crims can have them, why cant we?
My neighbours neighbour loves guns, he doesnt wear a bandana or have any tattoos,he'll never commit a crime?
My 3 year old cant reach the cupboard door where I keep my gun. Hows he ever going to get at it?
yada yada yada.

Excuses.

P.S I have powerpoint and the link still does not work.

I just checked it again. Its still working for the 3rd time running.

GtoRA2 · « **Reply #228 on:** October 22, 2004, 09:56:10 PM »

The odds are no one on this BBS will ever have to use a gun or have an acident with one. We are all far more likely to die in an automobile accident.

No one worries about that much. I do not worry about either.

I would not consider what you are doing up here debating, I have seen no facts or figures from you. I still have not seen the link, I think it works for you cause the info is local to your system. But hey I could be wrong. I doubt it would be meaningfull numbers. Ask laz for the meaningfull numbers, he has the books with the facts. The fact is concealed carrie permits lower violent crime in the counties they are available in. All the doom cryier like you cried their hearts out when florida passed the laws allowing it, and none of the great tales of doom happend. Of course posting figures won't help us here, you won't believe them.

There are so few accidents now they are insignifigant, almost like lighting strikes. I don't worry about them, I just make sure I and everyone around me when I shoot is safe.

In the US, even in the very upper middle class area and town I live in you can not depend on the police to protect you. The honest ones will tell you this. They come clean up the mess and arrest the guys after crimes. They do not prevent crimes. the avarage responce time in fremont the last time I checked was over 20 minutes. I would rather have a gun if I need it, and maybe get myself killed trying to defend myself then be at the mercy of a criminal with my only hope being I get lucky and the cops come early.
Now I do not live in fear, I know not a single person who does. I do not own guns for self defense. I own them cause I like shooting them, In all likely hood I will never be robbed, I have a large loud dog, still, I would rather have the right to protect myself if the need ever arives then have to depend on people who won't be there.

I have no fear of my fellow law abiding citizen packing a gun, most gun people I know take firearms very seriously. I would rather see people have the ability to protect themselves if they need to them be at the mercy of criminal scum.

The majority of the population is very law abiding. Most criminals are criminals from a young age. Law abiding people just dont wake up one morning and decide to rob a bank. You sound like you suspect everyone, or everyone is guilty untill proven inocent. If thats the case, with you being a police officer it is sad.

Yada yada yada, cant trust anyone, yada yada yada, anyone can be bad.....

True, but thats what rights are about, and your line of though is the first step to taking them away.

Anyone can abuse rights and brake laws, most don't. You have to trust that the Majority will do the right thing, or you get stuck in the loop you are in.

That loop being, that right is toooo dangerous, lets take it away for their own good.

were does it stop?

NUKE · « **Reply #229 on:** October 22, 2004, 09:59:15 PM »

Spook, interesting. How do you feel about alcohol, your right to have it and the deaths it causes?

Toad · « **Reply #230 on:** October 22, 2004, 10:00:37 PM »

There's another cultural aspect of this too.... if two heroin dealers get in a disagreement, shoot it out and they kill each other..... some folks in this argument think that's a bad thing while some others do not.

GtoRA2 · « **Reply #231 on:** October 22, 2004, 10:04:54 PM »

Exactly toad....

as long as no inocents are hurt isnt that really a win win??

Nuke

The two most dangerouse things in the US are eating the wrong foods and driving. At least if you look at highway deaths, and or heart related deaths. Should we ban all unhealthy food and cars so no one can hurt anyone else with a really fatty steak or a mini van??

Hell I am pretty sure the smoked tritip I made last weekend was bad for me and cost me a few years, but man was it to die for!! YUM!!

Also guys can you try spooks link so we can see if it is just me, don't wait it if you dont want to, just see if it does anything?

Maverick · « **Reply #232 on:** October 22, 2004, 10:09:29 PM »

Spook,
Last post to you, I've tried to be civil to you and have gotten nothing but lame comments innuendo and sensationalism instead of a dialogue. I no longer have to put up with people and their atitudes any more like I was required to on the job.

Frankly in my career I have seen quite a bit of death and most of it wasn't pretty. It comes in all manners and will come to all no matter what.

You claim the arguement on self defense is paranoid. I would say you have proven yourself to be the paranoid in your posts on this bbs. Your own fears show in your lack of trust in the very population you are supposed to serve. Too much US vs THEM there to be healthy. You were not given any special dispensation to know and tell others how they should live.

It's a hard but usually a quick lesson most Officers learn. You cannot protect people from themselves and they do not want you to try. Perhaps you should come down off of your high horse and face reality yourself.

It's obvious I cannot convince you of my point of view and you certainly are not going to convince me to join you in your fear of the general population. Further "debate" is pointless, so we'll have to agree to disagree. As long as this country doesn't join yours in it's treatment of citizens I'll get off of this very dead horse.

GtoRA2 · « **Reply #233 on:** October 22, 2004, 10:13:22 PM »

Hey Mav
Life on the road treating you good?

You going to be in Cali anytime soon? I would love to buy you a beer if you do, I owe ya for all the cool books!

Darkish · « **Reply #234 on:** October 22, 2004, 10:24:48 PM »

To be quite frank, I and all those I know, if asked "do you want a gun" would reply, "what for?". Our countries are quite different, my American cousins, and comparing the two is an exercise in bafflement.

It seems we have very different foundations, though our intentions appear similar.

Maverick · « **Reply #235 on:** October 22, 2004, 10:25:39 PM »

GTO,

Doing good and having fun doin' nuthin'. I don't know if we are going to CA. anytime in the next few months. We try not to make "plans" we just decide to go wherever it's not too hot or too cold. Only firm plans are to be in Tucson in December for DR. and Dentist visits. After that, who knows.

I'll certainly take you up on that brew if we get to within a couple hundred miles or so of your area.

We have thought about Quartzite and later maybe Vegas for some shows maybe January or February. We'll "talk".

GtoRA2 · « **Reply #236 on:** October 22, 2004, 10:34:32 PM »

Sounds Good Mav,

Let me know!

SC-Sp00k · « **Reply #237 on:** October 22, 2004, 11:01:55 PM »

Im more likely to injure myself with eye strain from returning to this thread than being injured in a firearm incident. I dont need the stats, I can feel it.

Nuke.
Its no different to what was said earlier about Bus accidents vs gun accidents. It exhausts me to even think about answering it again. Apples and oranges my friend.

Mav.
I dont believe ive been uncivil to you. You are correct that we agree to disagree. I have posed questions to the participants in this thread and they have been blindsided and ignored.

All ill say is this.
You know the stats/history on the distances involved and the reaction times of Police involved in Police shootouts. They are commonly known in both your countrys Police force and mine. Why? Because we draw them mainly from the benefit of the experience of yours. Ours simply correlate by comparison.

There is no way, these people are going to be able to defend their homes in the way they describe. Its the stuff of fantasies.

You will also find the treatment of my countries citizens far better than your own. Research it and you may even immigrate yourself. Dont worry. We will let you fly your flag here.

Toad.
If Druggies and scum want to play with each other and its ends in their demise, then make no mistake, I have no problem with that either. Unfortunetly, they have a habit of involving innocents in their games as well.

GTora2
The link isnt local. It works. For obvious reasons, I cant repost pictures from it.

I am not advocating that the be all and end all is Police response. I well enough know that often it is inadequate.

The point of my arguement is neither to say let the Police do it all or totally remove guns from the population.

Lawful citizens can still undergo screening processes and be members of Registered Gun Clubs, land owners can have guns for rural purposes and occupations which require a gun can act under either present or to be defined legislation to allow them to conduct their activities lawfully and safely.

Will criminals still get guns? Of course they will. Will all of them have them? No. You make it harder. Thats the best you can do.

Im enough of a realist to know that theres little to no chance of changing an ingrained culture like yours. It is interesting to hear the various arguements that come from the other side of the pond on this debate.

As Mav said earlier. We will have to agree to disagree. I share life in a different world. Thankfully.

GtoRA2 · « **Reply #238 on:** October 22, 2004, 11:18:59 PM »

I agree, on the thankfully part in the last line.

The only thing I fear in this country is that politicians that think like you will slowly erode away my rights.

It will start with guns, and move on from there.

That probably sounds parinoid, but people on this board already fear it is happending with the patriot act.

Most of them are NOT the gun nuts.

AS has been said before, guns are not the problem here, they may make it slightly worse, but I and most gun owners are willing to live with that.

Taking them away, will have such a minor effect it would not be worth it the effort, and I am perfectly willing to side with trusting my neighbors with guns.

beet1e · « **Reply #239 on:** October 23, 2004, 04:12:32 AM »

I asked the one question the gun nuts cannot answer, which was : If our gun control isn't working, how come our gun crime is next to nothing? And the best answers they could come up with were these:

Martlet: "we like breaking things"
Widewing: Something about my question being 1000 words long. It wasn't. It was less than 50.
Mr. Toad pontificating about some ban (again) that took place in 1997 when I wasn't looking.
Jackal - saying that we're going to catch up to the US in terms of gun crime eventually.

Kind of pathetic, actually. OK, let's stick with Jackal...

Sidestepping? I asked you to explain your point of view. How do you get "sidestepping" out of that? You say our gun control laws are not working, and you're wrong. They ARE working, which is why we our gun crime is next to nothing. US has a guns-4-all policy: 10000 gun homicides annually is the result. There is NO WAY Britain is ever going to become like that.

How are we to catch up to the US when a)there is a 5 year mandatory jail sentence for possession of a gun b)there are no retail gun outlets in the UK?

According to that second article I posted says that 29 "gun" crimes are committed every day in Britain. But two thirds of those are with an imitation weapon. That's around 20 times a day that a criminal is thwarted in his attempts to get his hands on a deadly weapon, and has to make do with an imitation.

I dedicate this post to Widewing - less than 300 words.

My regards,
Beet1e.