Learning to fly

[Chairboy]

Actually, my problem with the instruments was the opposite.  When I was taking off, I never looked down to check my instruments because I was so focused on keeping my take off roll stable.  There was a crosswind, so I was worried that if I wasn't actively watching and correcting (because I was glancing at my gauges) that I'd veer off the runway or worse, tumble the aircraft.

[Straiga]

well I back from flying,

Now, I have the right to rant its good for blowing off steam.
Now when someone calls someone else a name, this goes to what I was saying about someone not knowing or have enough information to form an opinion about something. When someone has to call somebody names this is childish and belongs in the play ground or sand box or something, but not in the "O" club.


People who talk and not listen dont learn anything, but they still know all.

In the 152 defiantely and most aircraft, if no rudder is added during the stall the left wing will droop, if you crank in right aileron to lift the left wing, the adverse yaw will further slow the lefft wing down more than the right wing thus sending you into a spin.

You got it mars01

Actually, my problem with the instruments was the opposite. When I was taking off, I never looked down to check my instruments because I was so focused on keeping my take off roll stable. There was a crosswind, so I was worried that if I wasn't actively watching and correcting (because I was glancing at my gauges) that I'd veer off the runway or worse, tumble the aircraft.

Chairboy dont worry your ahead of the game, most students you cant get there noses out of the cockpit. If you can learn pitch and power this will make you a better pilot.

Golfer - knowing one's stuff is less than 50% of the equation. What's the use of that if you cannot impart that knowledge without a rant? Sorry, but my judgement still stands. He may know his stuff, but he's not the only one who knows his stuff. I'd pick one of the others who knows his/her stuff.

Dont waste your time golfer this is a lost cause. Thanks anyway

knowing one's stuff is less than 50% of the equation.

I still trying to figure this out. I think I need to rant.

I guess the the other 50% is experience that Beet1e dosent have.

Later all Straiga

Beet1e you have sand in your shoes! Did I spell that right.

[jigsaw]

Originally posted by Chairboy
Actually, my problem with the instruments was the opposite.  When I was taking off, I never looked down to check my instruments...

As Straiga said, you're ahead of the curve at the moment.  Relax, slow down, run your check lists, check your instruments on take off roll. Get the procedures down. It's a lot harder to unlearn a bad habit compared to learning it right the first time. The speed will come with experience. Your instructor isn't going to let you get into a life threatening situation.

Talk yourself through things out loud. It helps reinforce learning and also lets the instructor know what's going on in your head. You can practice in your car with things like "There's a red light. I'm going to let off the gas. As the car slows I'm going to start applying the brake." Sounds silly, but once you get in the habit it becomes second nature, and people you fly with will be impressed.

The car is also a good place to practice the ICAO alphabet. Start reading license plates with it.

[Habu]

Chairboy keep posting updates.

I started my PPL lessons last year and passed my flight test about a year after I started. It was a frustrating experience to have lesson after lesson cancelled due to weather but that is the price you pay living in Canada.

However I bought my own plane and found a good freelance instructor and at the end flew over 15 hours in 2 weeks.

At a certain point you begin to fly without thinking about what you are doing. Stalls spins slow flight takeoffs and landings are all automatic. It is like riding a bike you just know what the plane will do to every input. And it is pretty hard to get it to spin if you fly a high wing.

My best advice to you is always land the plane with the nose high. Don't fly the plane onto the ground with the nose flat, keep adding back pressure and let the mains settle on their own. If you do that you will avoid all sorts of potential problems. It also means you flew a correct approach and did not come in high or fast.

Landing like that each time means you understand approach speeds, effect of the engine on the controls, effect of flaps on the stall speed and the feel of the plane in very slow flight.

[Straiga]

Also mars,

In a powered off stall you will get prop slip stream effecting the tail, pushing the nose ever so slightly to the left helping to drop the left wing.


We ought to have a forum called ask the CFIs for guys who need help wth there flying.

Straiga

[Skydancer]

Well stuff all the arguing.

A few weeks ago I took my first flight in a flexwing micralight. Now that is flying! Closest thing I can find to an airborne motorbike! Sadly I'm too poor to continue lessons at the mo. But when finances improve I'm going to carry on. It takes a bit of adjusting but control is realy simple and its amazing being up there with nowt around you. I'm pretty sure its as close as we get nowadays to the pioneering days of flight!

Chairboy you are lucky. Enjoy it.

[talliven]

I instructed for about 3 yrs before getting on with the airlines.  The school i taught at had 6 c152, 2 c172, 2 Pa28-161's, 2 pa28-140's, both the T-tail and "conventional" tailed arrows, 2 seminoles and a seneca.   I personally have over 100 hours in each type,  over 600 in pipers and about 500 in cessna's (did my training in pipers at Florida Tech university where i got my BS in Aeronautical science and my MS in Aviation sciences.)  

As for stall characteristics  piper generally was more "mushy"  but will break suddenly on occasion.  Commonly when student starts to let one wing drop in setting up stall and tries to correct with ailerons right as they are entering stall.   Cessna's will break a little harder in general but typically will not spin unless forced.  assuming the plane is rigged correctly (doesn't require a lot of rudder in cruise to be coordinated)  will stall straight ahead or with slight left wing drop.  If then put in right aileron and do nothing else will develope into a steep diving spiral, not a spin.  The natural tendancy of the nose dropping causes airspeed to increase and AOA to decrease to point you are no longer stalled.  I trained many CFI students and Used c-152 for spin training with them and typically took several tries to get them to spin while trying to.

As for t-tail,  Flying both arrow types i found they handle nearly identically in all stages of flight including stalls.  The only real differnce is on runway.  On takeoff the nose wont come up (soft feild takeoff) till a higher speed in t-tail cause elevator is not in prop wash and is thus remains ineffective till higher speeds.  Same on landing as t-tail will cause nose to drop suddenly as tail stalls at higher speeds without added airflow from prop.

[slimm50]

Chairboy, that's great! The best to you, and congrats! Keep us posted. I love reading this post.  

[mars01]

Commonly when student starts to let one wing drop in setting up stall and tries to correct with ailerons right as they are entering stall. Cessna's will break a little harder in general but typically will not spin unless forced. assuming the plane is rigged correctly (doesn't require a lot of rudder in cruise to be coordinated) will stall straight ahead or with slight left wing drop. If then put in right aileron and do nothing else will develope into a steep diving spiral, not a spin. The natural tendancy of the nose dropping causes airspeed to increase and AOA to decrease to point you are no longer stalled.

The above is not what I am talking about, the above assumes you released back pressure and broke the stall before the spin started.  

If you are telling me that holding full back pressure in the stall that the plane will break the stall, I would disagree.  Again this is all without using rudder.  Of course with correct rudder you can hold the stall and mush the 152 just like the warrior.

If you stall the aircraft with out corrective right rudder, the left wing droops, and if you mainain the back pressure, thus maintaining the stall and try to correct with right aileron the plane is going to spin.  Lets face it all you have to do is let the controls go and it will start flying again, I am not arguing that it is hard to stop, but for the inexpierianced pilot it is also an easy place to get into.  

Now caught quickly it is easy to stop and avoid, for the first time pilot this may be a different story.  Again, my only point is to say if you plan on flying a 152 and to some degree any high wing get some stall and spin training first, otherwise be careful.  Anyone that tells you different does not have your safety in mind.

Personally my motto is, "It's better to expieriance something for the first time with an instructor on board than by myself."

[talliven]

If you maintain full back on the yoke in a c152 and full cross control the plane will still end up in a steep spiral most of the time in my experience teaching spins.  Most people mistake the spiral for a spin especially those who haven't been in a real spin.  Many times my cfi students could swear they were just in a spin.  Then we get into a real spin and they see what one really is like.  Now im not saying it wont spin if your not  trying, nor is the steep spiral a good thing to find yourself in either especially if low experience or altitude.  Even at altitude in the steep spiral situation you will find yourself at Vne very quickly if you dont correct.  
As for doing stalls in a high week aircraft with an instructor before flying it solo, that goes for low wing as well.  Besides anybody who would check out a person to rent any airplane with requiring the full series of stalls doesn't deserve doing rental checkouts.  When i checked people out stalls were the one thing i never skipped regardless of how much time that person had in that type of aircraft.
The one thing i wish is that tailwheel aircraft were more common today.  I was blessed in that my flight school i taught at had an aeronca champ that i gave training in.  I required all my private student to do at least one flight in it.  Most enjoyed it enought to get there tailwheel endorsment after finishing their private, but all learned how to use a rudder properly.

[mars01]

LOLH, the whole spiral dive thing cracks me up.  In over 200 hours in a 152 and 100 in unusual attitudes I have never been in a spiral dive.  I have been in plenty of spins.  And again my scenarios are not cross controlled they are with out rudder.

AS for people not recognizing a spin, well a new pilot I would understand maybe, but honestly if your airspeed is increasing you are definately not stalled and therefore not in a spin.  And I have to question how an instructor would ever let it get established in a spiral dive.

As for people taking up planes and not being appropriately checked out, well you can only wish people do the right thing, but does this mean we shouldn't pass on usefull knowledge because we hope people do things correctly?

[Stringer]

Two things:

1.) I think AKIron still wears that shirt.

2.) I learned in the PA-38, and my instructor gave me spin training in it.  Since that was the first plane I'd ever flown it didn't seem to bad at the time.  The 172 seemed like a kitten after trolling around in the Traumahawk.

[Chairboy]

Just had another lesson, this one was a doozy.

We climbed out over the beach, then turned right to Malibu.  He had me level out at 3,000 feet and enter slow speed to do some more maneuvers.  He's been having me do some slow flight for the past 3 lessons, it's very educational.  

Then the hard stuff started.  He had me do more steep turns, and this time, I had more trouble then before.  I was applying cross controls and consequently it got real squirrely, plus I was using bad turn technique by not neutralizing the turn once I had reached my desired attitude.  Finally, there was a lot of turbulence over Malibu today, so I hd a pretty rough ride.  I aborted the maneuver carefully (I had done clearing turns, so I was clear of traffic, the sky was empty over there) and discussed the problems I was having with my instructor.  He told me about my cross control inputs and why it was causing the problem, then helped me review the basics on proper use of rudder w/ ailerons when entering turn.  I realized that before, I hadn't really USED the rudders the way I should have, and the steep turn really brought that to a head.

With his advice in mind, I did the steep turns again following his instructions, and did like a thousand percent better.

Then I did instrument flying, with turns, descents, ascents, etc under the hood.  It was very choppy, so after a few minutes he asked me if I was queasy and I responded no, but within like a minute of him asking, my stomach started to protest.  I didn't say anything, but the rest of the flight I felt pretty rotten.  More like 'ate too much greasy food' than 'gonna ralph!'.

We did pattern flying, right hand approach, did a low pass, then did a couple of left handed approaches per tower with another low pass, then I landed it.

This was the rottenest flight so far, I'll have to remember to drink something before flying and not eat a corndog right before I go up.

Next lesson is tomorrow at 9 AM.  

Funny thing, last night I was stuck in traffic on the 405 near the airport, so I turned my scanner to SMO tower frequency just as I heard 58 Sierra (the Piper I train in) request landing.  Busy little plane!

[talliven]

biggest help with performing a steep turn easily is trim.  in both the warrior and the cessna if it is trimmed for level flight add 2 full turns of trim wheel as you roll in.  this will almost always give you a properly trimmed a/c in the turn, then you can concetrate little corrections instead of how much back pressure it is taking if you dont trim.

[Chairboy]

Todays lesson went a lot better, even if the weather didn't entirely agree.

We did an hour of very enlightening ground school where my instructor gave me more insight into WHY certain things happen in stalls, spins, etc.  The aerodynamic aspects are all hooked together, and there were a few times where I was able to extrapolate how things I had learned before connected directly to what we were discussing, and the instructor seem very pleased to I had made the requisite leaps.

He briefed me on what we would be doing, then we went out and pre-flighted the plane again.  As I have in the last few lessons, I taxiied up to near the runway on my own, then did the next checklist.  Tuned in the radio frequencies, checked ATIS for weather and set my altimeter, etc.  My instructor radioed for clearance to taxi as usual, and we taxiied to the hold short line, then we switched to tower and got clearance.  So I put us on the runway, then 'Lights' (landing lights), 'Camera'(Transponder to ALT), 'Action' (full throttle) and started the takeoff.

Santa Monica has a noise abatement procedure in place for the neigborhoods at the end of runway 21.  After a few seconds of climbing, you dog leg to the left so you're over a golf course, then straighten back parallel to the runway while climbing towards the shore.

At the beach, we made a right turn (away from LAX) and flew towards the channel islands.

One thing I immediately noticed was that the winds had really picked up.  The plane was bucking a lot, and when I checked the ocean down below, it was absolutely covered with whitecaps.  My instructor was pretty impressed at the winds down there and mentioned it was probably a good day for kite sailing (a new sport where people on surfboards fly kites and get thrown around on the water).

He had me turn towards Van Nuys and transition between two mountains.  As I turned, the wind really picked up, and by the time I was lined up, the plane felt like it was flying sideways.  The crosswind was so pronounced, we were pointed north, but the plane was actually travelling west/northwest over the ground.  Pretty hairy, especially since I was looking down out my window at the mountain and it felt like I was going to just fall out of the sky.

I crabbed it a little bit and we got into the valley.  We were going to do ground reference maneuvers, so I dropped to 1,800 so we'd be around a thousand above a prominent street in Van Nuys, but the turbulence just went crazy.  I was flying through it fine, using rudder to correct the instead of aileron as the book taught me, and got into position.  The instructor took the controls so he could demonstrate the S-Turn, but after a minute of flying, decided that the wind was really a little too high.  Van Nuys ATIS was reporting winds over 25, and 150 at 6, so....  

I flew back out to Malibu and I did more power-off stalls.  I really had to pull the yoke back all the way to get it to honestly stall, and I noticed that it didn't have a huge tendency to roll in either direction.  My instructor dryly noted that I didn't have to actually point the nose straight down to get my airspeed back because we just want it to generate lift again, so that was good to know.

During another maneuver, he told me to get the nose back down to the horizon, and I told him I noticed my airspeed had jumped up 20 knots (probably because of a gust, it was really wild up there) and I was correcting, and he agreed with what I did and commented something to the effect of that being something an advanced student would notice, so that was pretty cool.

I did another instrument approach to the pattern with my hood on, then we followed a Cessna in for a very tight landing pattern, tower really wanted us on the ground and off the runway fast because of some inbound traffic.

I pulled off the side of the runway, and got to do my first radio call.  I was really nervous and didn't want to pooch it, so I practiced a couple times, then called "Santa Monica Ground, Cherokee 8258 Sierra requesting taxi to lower southeast."  My instructor did the little victory gesture and told me I nailed it, and I felt pretty danged good.  Then he did the readback confirmation over the radio when we got our clearance and told me about how I'll need to remember to repeat the tower's instructions back.

While I taxied back, got to listen to a mistake someone else made that was useful.  Another plane either didn't call out his id or hit the button late in his call, and the tower called him on it.  My instructor told me about how the other common error some students make is holding down the transmit button (which is on the yoke) while they're going through checklists, not realizing it.  I'd guess ground control isn't a huge fan of that, and will try to avoid it.

I parked the plane by myself, it's an interesting maneuver.  Cherokee 58 Sierra parks tail first at the edge of the tarmac.  There's a slight downward angle to the hill facing the fence, so I bring it in, turn it around 270 degrees (so I have maximum maneuvering room), then do my shut down checklist with the brakes applied.  Once I'm ready, I let off the brakes and rock myself a little to get the plane rolling backwards, then use rudder to steer it into position.

Pretty darn good lesson, even if we had to abort the ground reference maneuvers.  

I'm flying up to the fam tomorrow, so this is my last lesson until the beginning of January when I return, hope I don't forget everything!