Who decides? THEY do!

[lazs2]

zulu... your shortsidedness is embarassing.   You would "run away" if someone attacked you with a knife?  you can't see past your own nose... Let's say that you crash that environmental disaster of a bike you ride today and become paralyzed (god forbid) from the waist down...  Do you believe that anyone who is stronger and more mobile than you should just be able to take from you anything they want?  What would you do about it?  you can't "run away" and calling the police would be way to little way too late.

Most gun owners in America are the most vulnerable.   The largest segment of the population now arming themselves are women.   I don't harm women so it isn't me that they are arming themselves against.   Older and infirm (you need to look a little ahead of today) feel the need for guns.

Watching UK countries take away guns for every single reason under the sun until they are all gone is teaching us a lesson about "sensible" gun legeslation... There is no such thing... there are gun owners and there are the people who would take those guns away.   It is that simple.

And... I agree.. In America we are the government and we, as people, feel that no justification is good enough to take away our freedom to defend ourselves and our freedom...  No price is too high to pay for it either.  

I also don't believe that removing guns would make any difference whatsoever in our homiciede rate just as it made no difference in yours or australlias.  

You guys gave up your freedoms for nothing.

lazs

[lazs2]

wolfa... a 20mm might not be very good for shooting deer although I bet I could develop a load for it that would work fairly well... still... it would be more humane to have the chance for a quick second shot on a wounded deer or any other animal.

lazs

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by Wolfala
So....would anyone have a problem going deer hunting with a single shot 20mm?

Chuck Yeager:  
"Next the squadron moved to Casper, Wyoming for more training. It was also great hunting; one time Chuck went up in his P-39 and carefully herded a dozen antelope toward a pre-arranged spot, where his armed ground confederates had a field day. They ate antelope roasts for a month."

Although not 20mm, it does illustrate the doctrine, "Meat through superior firepower"

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Vulcan
And where does it stop?

Or maybe you need grenades?

Hell maybe your pissed off next door neighbour needs to up the stakes with an RPG.

You know, my wife was chatting with some relatives who moved to the USA a few years ago, they're bugging out, heading home, had enough of the place because its to dangerous and violent. Heres the punchline... they came from Cambodia!

Naa we dont need Greanades or RPGs
Comes the time we do we can make our own.

IEDs are rediculously easy to make.

Adding a rocket to them isnt a whole lot more difficult.

Might I ask where in the USA they lived? LA perhaps?

[DREDIOCK]

Hmmm just had a thought.
Instead of making it illegal for people to have guns.
Why not just make it illegal for criminals to have guns.
Or to use guns while commiting a crime.

Would work just as well

[Glasses]

Originally posted by Masherbrum
I love the United States of America, and my Heckler & Koch USP 45.

Karaya

I see someone has been Playing Metal Gear Solid huh huh huh?

[weaselsan]

Originally posted by Zulu7
Sadly we are nannied as you put it.

Infact I think we are overly regulated but thats true in nearly all developed countries I think not least in yours.  

We have the Litiginous ( that how you spell it? ) I'll sue you culture imported from your good selves to thank for that though!

The Lawyers get fatter and fatter whilst our regulations and rules grow and grow.

But I still would not have your gun laws for love nor money. I quite like not having to worry about getting blown away for saying the wrong thing or being in the wrong place.

Oh and as for the knives thing I can run from a knife I can't run faster than a bullet so that argument, is I am afraid, a bit spurious.

Here in the State of Florida, we have a concealed weapons permit. Of over 100,000 permits that where issued none (0) where ever used in commission of a crime. Gun crimes are committed by those that are in violation of a law even possesing a weapon. Blaming the gun for crime is like blaming the pen for mis-spelled words.

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by lazs2
zulu... your shortsidedness is embarassing.   You would "run away" if someone attacked you with a knife?  you can't see past your own nose... Let's say that you crash that environmental disaster of a bike you ride today and become paralyzed (god forbid) from the waist down...  Do you believe that anyone who is stronger and more mobile than you should just be able to take from you anything they want?  What would you do about it?  you can't "run away" and calling the police would be way to little way too late.

Most gun owners in America are the most vulnerable.   The largest segment of the population now arming themselves are women.   I don't harm women so it isn't me that they are arming themselves against.   Older and infirm (you need to look a little ahead of today) feel the need for guns.

Watching UK countries take away guns for every single reason under the sun until they are all gone is teaching us a lesson about "sensible" gun legeslation... There is no such thing... there are gun owners and there are the people who would take those guns away.   It is that simple.

And... I agree.. In America we are the government and we, as people, feel that no justification is good enough to take away our freedom to defend ourselves and our freedom...  No price is too high to pay for it either.  

I also don't believe that removing guns would make any difference whatsoever in our homiciede rate just as it made no difference in yours or australlias.  

You guys gave up your freedoms for nothing.

lazs

Ahhh yeah right lazs, 2.3% of gun owners got their guns destroyed for either not storing them properly or having no real reason for owning the type of firearm they had.

2.3%

HULLO LAZS

2.3% over two years... 1.15% per year...

You are screaming government represession over 2.3% - excuse me if you don't look like a fruitcake.

[wrag]

Originally posted by Vulcan
Ahhh yeah right lazs, 2.3% of gun owners got their guns destroyed for either not storing them properly or having no real reason for owning the type of firearm they had.

2.3%

HULLO LAZS

2.3% over two years... 1.15% per year...

You are screaming government represession over 2.3% - excuse me if you don't look like a fruitcake.

That's the point?  They didn't need em????   Or didn't store em properly?   OK your toliet is improperly maintained GIVE it up!  You will now use an outhouse.  You don't cut your hair properly SHAVE your head.  You don't need a vehicle. we are taking yours.  Percentages???  These people don't matter cause it doesn't affect me?  YA RIGHT!

Remember the they came for the ****** but I said nothing because I wasn't a ****** etc. etc. ...... then they came for me and I spoke up but there was no one left........

That's the point?  They didn't need em????   Did you decide this?  WHO DECIDES??????

[Nashwan]

Your making an outright specific claim of

Originally posted by Zulu7
Yep this is true but I still don't feel the need to carry a gun and I'm glad to be living in a country that doesn't allow it! For what its worth I feel a bit safer knowing the "evil doer" is statisticaly unlikely to be carrying one also.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Im asking you to back that up with data.
If you cant back your claims up you shouldnt be making them.

Or are we supposed to buy into it "because you say so"?

How about:

79 people killed with a firearm in England and Wales in 2003/04 (out of population of just over 50 million)

Rate = 0.15 per 100,000 people

In the US, approx 10,000 people murdered with a firearm

Rate = 3.41 per 100,000 people


How about guns used in crime?

There were 5,630 crimes in which a firearm was used in England and Wales in 2003/04, down about 15%. (there was an increase of 48% in the number of replica guns used in crime, but they are not exactly dangerous)

The rate of firearms crimes (all crimes, including criminal damage, threatening behaviour etc) was 10.8 per 100,000 people.

In the US there were approx 173,000 robberies in which firearms were used, 164,000 aggravated assaults in which firearms were used, 10,000 murders in which firearms were used.

The rate for just those 3 offences (ignoring others like threatening behaviour, criminal damage etc) was approx 118 per 100,000 people.

Hmmm just had a thought.
Instead of making it illegal for people to have guns.
Why not just make it illegal for criminals to have guns.
Or to use guns while commiting a crime.

It already is. Perhaps it's just not effective because criminals don't obey the law?

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by wrag
That's the point?  They didn't need em????   Or didn't store em properly?   OK your toliet is improperly maintained GIVE it up!  You will now use an outhouse.  You don't cut your hair properly SHAVE your head.  You don't need a vehicle. we are taking yours.  Percentages???  These people don't matter cause it doesn't affect me?  YA RIGHT!

Remember the they came for the ****** but I said nothing because I wasn't a ****** etc. etc. ...... then they came for me and I spoke up but there was no one left........

That's the point?  They didn't need em????   Did you decide this?  WHO DECIDES??????

http://www.med.umich.edu/1libr/yourchild/guns.htm

Going by your logic wrag drunk drivers are ok too?

But hey you'd prefer your "freedom", better to let hundreds of children die to improperly secured firearms right? Damn it you're so right Wrag... I'm gonna go get boozed up and who gives a f*** about the law, what right do they have to decide whether I'm capable of driving or not?

In 1999, 3,385 kids ages 0-19 years were killed with a gun. This includes homicides, suicides, and unintentional injuries.
This is equivalent to about 9 deaths per day, a figure commonly used by journalists.
The 3,385 firearms-related deaths for age group 0-19 years breaks down to:
214 unintentional
1,078 suicides
1,990 homicides
83 for which the intent could not be determined
20 due to legal intervention
Of the total firearms-related deaths:
73 were of children under five years old
416 were children 5-14 years old
2,896 were 15-19 years old  

You guys should really listen to yourselves sometime.

Just to make it really clear wrag, in just over one week more children die to firearms in the USA than all deaths to firearms in the UK for one year. More children die to firearms in the USA in one week than do in NZ in one DECADE.

[Zulu7]

And thats what I have against gun ownership!

[wrag]

Originally posted by Vulcan
http://www.med.umich.edu/1libr/yourchild/guns.htm

Going by your logic wrag drunk drivers are ok too?

But hey you'd prefer your "freedom", better to let hundreds of children die to improperly secured firearms right? Damn it you're so right Wrag... I'm gonna go get boozed up and who gives a f*** about the law, what right do they have to decide whether I'm capable of driving or not?

 

You guys should really listen to yourselves sometime.

Just to make it really clear wrag, in just over one week more children die to firearms in the USA than all deaths to firearms in the UK for one year. More children die to firearms in the USA in one week than do in NZ in one DECADE.

"Dangerous laws created by well intentioned people today can be used by dangerous people with evil intentions tomorrow." - Alan Eppers

"How a politician stands on the Second Amendment tells you how he or she views you as an individual... as a trustworthy and productive citizen, or as part of an unruly crowd that needs to be lorded, controlled, supervised, and taken care of."
--REP. SUZANNA GRATIA HUPP (TX)



Not sure about you but I tend to NOT count 19 year olds as kids.

Further the U.S military used to allow 17 year olds to enlist with parental consent.

Hmmm and just how many of those children deaths are gang bangers fighting over turf????

You've been sheltered?  I've seen some of those kids you're perhaps refering to, and watched how they act.  I understand why some are tried as adults.

I've seen these figures and some like em used before.  What they don't seem to tell you is that the majority is much closer to that 19 years old figure.  They also like to use the "they knew each other" thing.  Yep they did.  Rival gangs usualy know who's in the other gangs.

"Using inner city kids as your proof that guns and kids don’t mix, is like using an alcoholic to prove all people will abuse alcohol." ~~ Lori Broadhead


Drunk drivers are OK??? Where you gettin that?  Please explain your logic there as I simply do not understand it.

You really gonna get drunk and go try and kill some kids?  Scuse me but I would consider that murder!


"Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it" ~~ George Bernard Shaw


Improperly stored?  Hmm I always knew exactly where the firearms where in my parents house when I was young.  I also knew full well what they were, what they were capable of doing, and why I shouldn't touch em without a parent/adult around.  They weren't locked up.  Knew where the ammo was too.

"Smart guns and safety locks aren't meant to protect children. They're meant to kill gun owners." ~~ Victor Milan

"The doctrine of blind obedience and unqualified submission to any human power, whether civil or ecclesiastical, is the doctrine of despotism...." --Angelica Grimke



Hey ya wanna get into a modern parenting vs old style argument?

FREEDOM is NOT FREE!  Never has been and never will be!

What? You gonna vote for Hiliary Clinton in 2008?  I'm NOT!

"Comrades! We must abolish the cult of the individual decisively, once and for all."~~Nikita Khrushchev

"All our lives we fought against exalting the individual, against the elevation of the single person."~~Vladimir Lenin

"There is the great, silent, continuous struggle: the struggle between the State and the Individual."~~ Benito Mussolini

"The main plank in the National Socialist program is to abolish the liberalistic concept of the individual"~~Adolph Hitler

"We must stop thinking of the individual and start thinking about what is best for society."~~Hillary Clinton, 1993



Too many seem to dance in the streets with great joy as someone loses a right, or a freedom, or a liberty .............


"You can only protect your liberties in this world by protecting the other man's freedom. You can only be free if I am." ~~ Clarence Darrow (1857-1938)



Way too many seem to fit into this as well......

"According to my observations, mankind are among the most easily tamable and domesticable of all creatures in the animal world. They are readily reducible to submission, so readily conditionable (to coin a word) as to exhibit and almost incredibly enduring patience under restraint and oppression of the most flagrant character. So far are they from displaying any overweening love of freedom that they show a show a singular contentment with a condition of servitorship, often showing a curious canine pride in it, and again often simply unaware that they are existing in that condition." ~~ Albert Jay Nock; The Memoirs of a Superfluous Man


I think I'll stop for now with this......"There are 83 million lawful and responsible gun owners in this country, and we're sick and tired of being treated like criminals." ~~ Sam Cohen

[lazs2]

Oh this is great.....  comparing gun homicide rates (without comparing homicide rates in general) between the U.S. and some pissant little socialist nanny island... again...  you guys act like removing all the guns will reduce the homicide rate enough to justify it... or the crime rate..  in the U.S. more guns in the population reduce crime... in england...  less guns do little or raise the crime rate.

73 children were killed out of a population of 290 some million by guns accidentally... less than were drown in buckets...  this is laughable.  15-19 year old gang bangers are now "children"?   this is beyond dishonest.    

Justify your loss of freedom anyway you like just don't try to export it..

vulcan..  Wrong type or stored improperly?    What is the "wrong type" of gun?  is it one that is used in an abnormal amount of crimes?   what about stored unsafely?  do you have a huge amount of accidental deaths from improperly stored firearms?

I think that watching your governments that are not governments of the people... I think the lessons are good for us to see.   I bet a lot of Americans who take their rights for granted are getting just a little queazy reading what you socilaists are writing and trying to export.

lazs

[Zulu7]

How many gun threads are there on this board again?

Lazs you and others like you, lurv your guns. Some of us don't. It seems we have reached that point way way long time ago. So how about a different subject as nothing we say will change the situation anyhow. kids will still shoot kids in the US, and you guys will defend your right to be armed to teeth till they prize the thing from your lifeless fingers as you gun nuts might say. And we will probably continue to think your gov nuts for allowing it all!

Next subject please.