Would the non "Europe is crap" citizens please sign in ok?

[spitfiremkv]

I'm a libertarian too, but unfortunately such governing would work only for smart people. Dumb people would abuse it and turn it into anarchy.
Basically democracy is a libertarian form of government with fail-safe checks against what idiots would do if they had unlimited freedom.

[Elfie]

One thing that is inherently false about your sig line Beet1e is it doesnt tell the whole story. While your gun related murders have stayed relatively the same for decades, your overall crimerate is going up including murder.

When States like Florida pass thier concealed carry laws it doesnt necessarily mean that overall gun ownership goes up, but overall crimerates go down. Some people who get concealed carry laws purchase a firearm, many others already had one.

Criminals can be compared to predators like wolves, or lions. Predators dont generally kill the healthy prey animals, they go after the sick, the old and the weak. Criminals essentially do the same. Criminals tend to (at least in America) prey on those they believe to be helpless. Concealed carry laws tend to reduce the number of *helpless victims* Many times here in America crimes are thwarted by the mere prescence of a firearm.

What works for us here in America may or may not work elsewhere. For us, statistics prove that when more gun control laws are passed that crime goes up. When gun control laws are relaxed, crime goes down.

The thing that confuses me the most is people who only care about *gun related murders*. Who really cares what method someone is murdered by? Dead is dead, doesnt really matter if you were shot with a pistol, stabbed with a knife, cut into pieces with a chainsaw etc.....dead is still dead and murder is still wrong no matter what method is used. Crime as a whole is what needs to be targetted, not just *gun crime*.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Elfie
One thing that is inherently false about your sig line Beet1e is it doesnt tell the whole story. While your gun related murders have stayed relatively the same for decades, your overall crimerate is going up including murder.

Hi Gramps! My sig. does not attempt to tell the "full story". Current HTC guidelines for sig length stipulate a sig. not greater than about 3 lines. Nashwan made a statement in another thread some time ago. I thought it was good sig material. Obviously it refers only to gun crime, so you shouldn't try to read into it what isn't there.

Can I ask you to quote your source which led you to the erroneous conclusion that the murder rate in Britain is going up? I should draw your attention to the official Home Office crime report for 2003/2004 - the latest available. The .PDF file which forms this report can be found here. As you will see, on page 78, the murder tally in 2003/2004 is down by 190 (18%) on the previous year. This is largely due to the fact that the 172 murders committed by the serial killer Dr. Harold Shipman over a period of many years came to light in 2002/03 and were therefore recorded by Greater Manchester Police in that year's figures. Even setting aside the Shipman murders, the 2003/04 homicide tally was 2% lower than the previous year. You're still wrong.

Mr. Toad.

History of UK Firearms Legislation: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/cgi-bin/ukparl_hl?DB=ukparl&STEMMER=en&STYLE=s&URL=/pa/cm199900/cmselect/cmhaff/95/95ap25.htm#muscat_highlighter_first_match

10.  There was grave governmental concern about the vast quantities of arms and ammunition available at the end of World War I and a Committee under Sir Ernley Blackwell reviewed the situation both nationally and internationally. There was concern that arms might reach "savage or semi civilised tribesmen in outlying parts of the British Empire" or the "anarchist or intellectual malcontent of the great cities whose weapons are the bomb and the automatic pistol". The Committee met in private and reported in confidence with no outside consultation save with the police. They proposed firearms legislation based, to some extent, on Home Office proposals of 1911 which had been shelved because of perceived parliamentary opposition. The Blackwell Committee recommended more stringent restrictions, proposing that the right to possess firearms be limited to persons holding a certificate.

Blackwell Report, quoted on a gun control website (lol): http://members.aol.com/gunbancon/Frames/1-blackw.htm

The report was indeed submitted on the date you said, but contains references to events and discussions dating back to 1911 - which is what I said.

(2) Grounds for strengthening the Law.-That the control of firearms should be made far more stringent than it is now is a proposition which hardly anyone could be found to question. Attention had been called to the matter in Parliament before the war, and on the 13th of March 1913, a Return was made to the House of Commons of the cases in which firearms had been used against Police Officers in England and Wales in the five years 1908-1912. The Return (Paper 188 of 1913) showed that in these five years 47 cases had occurred, in which 92 Police Officers had been shot at, 6 had been killed and 24 had been injured. In 34 of the 47 cases the weapon used was known to be a revolver or some other kind of pistol. Of the 47 cases 15 occurred in the Metropolitan Police District.
******** In October, 1912, the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis informed the Home Secretary that in the dock strike of that year seven cases had occurred in which men concerned in the strike came into the hands of the Police for using firearms and five others for carrying them though not actually using them; and that ten other cases of the carrying of firearms were known to the Police, although in these no offender had been actually apprehended or summoned. The Commissioner of Police has also furnished us with other figures to show the extent to which firearms were used for criminal purposes, or if not actually used, were at any rate in the possession of persons who came into the hands of police, in the three years 1911-1913 and 1915-1917 respectively. It appears that in the three years 1911-1913, firearms were used in the Metropolitan Police District by 100 persons of British nationality and by 23 aliens; while firearms were found in the possession of British subjects in 76 cases and of aliens in 27 cases. The corresponding figures in the three years 1915-1917 were 42 and 5 as regards the use of firearms by British subjects and aliens, respectively, and 44 and 10 as regards the possession of them. The decline in the latter period as compared with the three years before the war is no doubt due to the restrictions on the purchase of firearms imposed by the Regulations under the Defence of the Realm Act, and the measures taken for the internment of alien enemies during the war; but if firearms can be brought into the country or obtained here with the same ease when peace is concluded as the law at present allows, the numbers may be expected to rise to or above their former level.
******** The returns also show that in nearly half of the cases in which firearms were used, sometimes with fatal effect, in the Metropolitan Police District in the years 1910-17, they appear to have been used without any particular premeditation in the course of ordinary quarrels - in some cases in street-fights - when, but for the offender's possession of a lethal weapon, probably no serious harm would have been done or attempted. In many of these cases the Courts appear to have taken an extremely lenient view of the offence of using firearms; and the question whether it would not be to the interest of public order that more deterrent penalties should be imposed for this offence, even when no serious injury may have been inflicted, and particularly when firearms are used or carried by persons engaged in crime, is one which it seems to us might well be submitted for the consideration of judicial authorities. In any case the Returns show that there is good reason for so altering the law as to make it much more difficult to obtain firearms than it is at present.

Some day, when you learn the actual history of gun control in England perhaps we'll discuss it again.
Until then, toodle pip!

[Zulu7]

Toad how about responding to me with something other than an insult for a change!?

Lazs don't pigeon hole me man. I don't have a thing for guns, and I don't much like the way I see the US going and the way it seems to wan't to tell the world how to live and threatening military force if they don't agree. If that makes me an effeminate F*g in your eyes well you have a pretty limited criteria for such a person. Yes I consider myself a socialst. A bit like those who marched from Jarrow to London to protest about unemployment in the thirties, cracked the heads of Mosely's fascists in cable street, stood on the picket lines during the miners strike, they were socialists too but not effeminate or un manly I think.

So don't assume I'm some ooh everything is wrong and I can right it Liberal t**t because I disagree with US Foreign policy and gun ownership and think the planet needs a bit more looking after than the guy who dives a hummer on the street!

OK?

[Elfie]

Hi Gramps!  My sig. does not attempt to tell the "full story". Current HTC guidelines for sig length stipulate a sig. not greater than about 3 lines.

Point taken!!

[Elfie]

As far as the rest of it Beet1e, I've seen the murder stats for GB. Total numbers of murders have been going up, so are total numbers of crimes. Atm however, I am on climbout from A220 (I think) and am to lazy to go look them up again

[midnight Target]

Well I sure as heck ain't a neocon, but I refuse to be pigeonholed by anyone ... if you are soooo interested look us up in the search engine. I have plenty of posts to help you with your filing system.

[Stringer]

I've met MT, he makes McCarthy look like Liberace!!

He's a wicked neo-whatever!!

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Elfie
As far as the rest of it Beet1e, I've seen the murder stats for GB. Total numbers of murders have been going up, so are total numbers of crimes. Atm however, I am on climbout from A220 (I think) and am to lazy to go look them up again

In the land of makebelieve again, huh? Oh OK, have fun. And feel free to ignore official Home Office statistics.

[Elfie]

Not in the land of make believe Beet1e I believe those figures have been posted on these boards before. I dont really have time to go look for them right now, have to finish getting ready to leave for work.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Elfie
Not in the land of make believe Beet1e I believe those figures have been posted on these boards before. I dont really have time to go look for them right now, have to finish getting ready to leave for work.

...but you manage to find time to post defamatory and incorrect remarks about Britain on this BBS. Next time perhaps you could hang fire until you can provide the facts to substantiate your allegations.

[Elfie]

I always browse the boards in the morning before I leave Beet, just dont have time for anything extra this morning

[Saintaw]

Opinions are worth something in here, only if you follow the party line. That's not news.

All that is left to do is to try and find the one post that is worth something... it's getting harder every day.

[Zulu7]

True realy saintaw.

I've only been here a while but I'm dissapointed by what I've read already No debate realy just a lot of mudslinging. Think I might resing from officers mess and join the ranks.

[lazs2]

zulu.. I detest socialists.. I believe women are socialists by nature but do not believe they should be allowed to vote on most things in any case.   I find men who are socialists to be particularly repugnant.

Beet.. your crime rate and homicide rate was going down before the latest ban... it then took a trend upward after the ban and is not trending downward.  

lazs