Question to Finns

[Simaril]

Originally posted by Boroda

What we have now is a victory of "democracy", and education quality dropped below any reasonable limits. I knew I was getting a best engineering education in Europe and probably the whole world, now - who cares...


I wonder why it was nessesary to abandon it for some kind of silly non-working political doctrine. Basic human rights are not "free expression" and non-existant "freedom of press".
 

Respectfully, please understand that teh current system in Russia is not typical of true democracy. Your nations experience has been colored by difficlut transition times, the lack of a strong, independent judiciary, and official delinquency in  the vital task of protecting the populace from oligarchy and monopolistic practices.  America, England, and western europe ahve been able to succeed with democracy because the populace: 1) assumes their rights shoudl be respected, and will fight when they see them threatened; 2) Assumes that it  is almost always safe to speak out in opposition; 3) Beleives that their efforts have the possiblity of success, of being heard and making changes in the system; 4) will not tolerate military intervention in internal political processes; and 5) understands that the judiciary can effectively act as a balancing check on other branches (including the executive, legislative, and military) when they overstep their bounds.

Third world countries in South America and Africa have almost without exception been unable to have effective democratic governments because of failures in these areas. That does not mean the system is flawed, it just means that it can be abused. Dictators can subvert any system if they are not adequately checked; but a subverted system is not a fair example.

[Simaril]

Originally posted by Raven_2

Sure, it was their choice :-) Is this the way how famous "liberty" thing works in USA? You place them at reservation by force first time - and still keep them there! "Sovereign" is a good thing...

Why are you quoting from what amounts to ancient history? At the time the US Indian reservations were (unethically and immorally) being populated, the Cossacks were burning Jewish villages and the Tsar ruled....



In the 21st century, most Indians have left the reservation, and Indian blood is diffused all over the country. The reservations remain, often poverty stricken and wracked with alcoholism...

But some of the reservations have built business empires, usually by providing services (like legal gampbling) that is illegal throughout the states that surround them.

Yes, tehy have the freedom to enact laws in direct contradiction to the remainder of the country, because they are legally constituted as independent "states within states." Per capita income for these tribes is far higher than the average US.

I have visited reservations without those resources, and, yes, they are sad places. But let me reference Boroda's harsh statement :

"It's impossible to satisfy everyone. You can't imagine how many loosers who emigrated..."

Those born on reservation with the drive to study or work their way off, can get out. We have many special preferences extended for minorities (though they are admittedly controversial to some), and need based financial support is so widespread that colleges have entire bureaucracies to reach teh qualified and administer teh aid. Some of those remaining on the reservation are commited to building up and serving their own people, but there may also be some "loosers" (Boroda's word, not mine) who simply cant or wont get out. They weigh heavily on the reservation system, because the skilled have left.




Indian affairs have been wrongly handled, without any doubt. But, there can simply be NO comparison with teh communist dictatorships that oppressed eastern europe.

[Raven_2]

to Toad

>>Fechter was an East German, shot by East Germans, dying on East German soil.

And why you ignore my words about Rudi Arnstadt killed three days before that by western border guards? There is a monument to victims of the Wall in Germany. 24 names on it, AFAIR. 16 killed by easterners and 8 by westerners.

>>What other government system SHOOTS their own citizens in the back if they try to leave the country?

Bah. To say that East Germany had government like in USSR it`s equal to say Iraq has government system like in USA. If germans shot someone it has nothing to do with USSR government - like if iraques shot someone it has nothing to do with USA government. Agreed?

>>Note how these two were not prosecuted

They just follow they orders. I wonder why there were prosecuted at all. Someone, who really need to be prosecuted is their chief. Or someone higher.

[Raven_2]

to Simaril

>People who lived in the system voted with their feet to get out as fast as possible. If the communist system worked so well, why did it collapse when the Wall came down and people were free to leave?

Cause system alone does nothing. There a lot of capitalistic and formally democratic countries (in Africa, for example), where people starving and from where they would emigrate at first possibility.

Nazi Germany was national-socialstic (but still socialistic) country. Does their war machine work bad? Low production rates? Lack of science? And communist China for now outstanding most of the capitalistic countries at economic development. Socialism work.

So, system is not only reason for situation in Germany. In fact, system was insignificant factor and main factor was a lack of investment into post-war East Germany economic.

German economic was destroed during a war and there were no east-side analogue of Marshall plan. USSR didn`t invest much money to Germany. Thats why life level was lower then at west side. And East Germany was always less developed than west, even before war.

>>Thsi is great stuff. You really have absolutely no idea what life is like here, do you........

Well, there were 1 of april here, when Boroda post  this. 1 april is a Day of Hoaxes in Russia, so, I think this was one of them :-) And maybe he mean now-americans - ex-USSR citizens emmigrated to USA during/after soviet time.

>>At the time the US Indian reservations were (unethically and immorally) being populated, the Cossacks were burning Jewish villages and the Tsar ruled....

Well, there were zones of  sedentariness for jews in tzar`s Russia and they were far away from Cossacs lands, so I don`t know what your speaking about. But sure, jews were always first, who suffer during pogroms - in any contry and at any time :-)

>>They weigh heavily on the reservation system, because the skilled have left.

There were rumors that most of color-skinned people in USA never work and live mostly on doles (don`t sure that this is right word ... unemployment grant). And that average life time at their ghettos is ~ 25 for males. Is it true?

[Siaf__csf]

Raven why is the area of ex soviet union totally degraded, filthy, polluted and generally behind most of the planet in development if USSR had nothing to do with it?

Why were soviets not allowed to travel / move freely out of the country?

[Raven_2]

to Sciaf

>>Raven why is the area of ex soviet union totally degraded, filthy, polluted and generally behind most of the planet in development if USSR had nothing to do with it?

Cause now it become "democratic", Sciaf :-) Twenty years ago there were no pollutions and USSR industry was one of the best throught the whole world. And now I cleaned piles of junk at my court during last week subbotnik (it`s self organized non-payed voluntary social work), cause communal service work really bad when it in private hands, not by government control. During USSR times there wasn`t even smallest pice of paper on the streets, cause communal service worked good. And it were free for people, now we forced to pay for it. But where our money goes if situation now is much worser than it was when we pay nothing?

Even now, during Putin time, current economic rise is about ~7-9% for Russia, much more then in EU countries. During Yeltsin time (when this fckng bastard raise "true democracy") economic degrade really fast.

>>Why were soviets not allowed to travel / move freely out of the country?

Ever been in Israel? There a LOT of ex-soviets jews there. Travel out of the country was hard - but it was possible.

[Staga]

Originally posted by Raven_2
Twenty years ago there were no pollutions and USSR industry was one of the best throught the whole world.

[Siaf__csf]

That was an april fools joke I guess.

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Raven_2
Twenty years ago there were no pollutions and USSR industry was one of the best throught the whole world.

Lada????

[Raven_2]

>>Lada????

Nope. Buran, Soyuz, Mir and so on. Ever heard about that?

Борода, переведи им слова Черчиля про Сталина: "Он принял страну с сохой и оставил её с водородной бомбой".

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Raven_2
>>Lada????

Nope. Buran, Soyuz, Mir and so on. Ever heard about that?

Yup.

Says much when the Russkies can't even build a simple car. Even the Fiat was better than that of the Russkie clone.

[Fishu]

Originally posted by Raven_2
Twenty years ago there were no pollutions and USSR industry was one of the best throught the whole world.

Now I'm 100% convinced you're out of your mind or on drugs.
20 years ago nobody gave a crap for the pollution.

[Raven_2]

>>Says much when the Russkies can't even build a simple car. Even the Fiat was better than that of the Russkie clone.

Fck. And how much you know about russian cars? Ever seen one? Or all you can do just blah-blah "according to newspapers I read". Ever heard of Paris-Dakkar rally? Did you know that KAMAZ team is five years in succesion winner of this race? Ever seen KRAZ?

to Sciaf

>>That was an april fools joke I guess.

The Economic Problems of Great Britain 1919-1939
-Britain was a trading nation and its prosperity was built on her early industrialization however after WWI Britain became a debtor nation, causes of this include:
-Britain was challenged as other countries industrialized
-New post-WWI trading patterns were not in favor of Britain
-Britain had little left (after war debts) for import payments
-The post-WWI rise in protectionism damaged Britain given the nature of her economy (trade based)
-The break up of A.H. deprived Britain of a valuable export market
-British industry was becoming outdated

The Economic Problems of France 1919-1939
But, France had been the major battlefield for WWI and suffered greatly as a result. Her problems were:
-Loss of revenue in areas which had been devastated by the war
-Bankruptcy of the French treasury (due to massive borrowing)
-Manpower shortage because of heavy war losses
-The newly developed industrial sector promoted trade while the agricultural sector promoted projectionist policies.
-The taxation system was outdated and inefficient
-The French Gov. relied too much on reparations

On other hand:

The Economy of the USSR during the period 1919-1939
-The introduction in 1928 of a new system of central planning brought about rapid development
-The USSR began to catch up with the advanced countries of the West.

Also check this stats: http://www.onwar.com/articles/f0302.htm

USSR outperformed all states, excluding USA. And this economic was built in 1923-1939. 16 years. On the plain ground, after the devastating civil war, when most of industry was destroed. With closed borders, without any credits, with minimal influance of foreign trade. With big part of regions, occupied by nazi. As you can see, our industry was way more efficional that Great Britain empire economy with 510 mln of people throught the world.

Also don`t forget that USSR was only big country that avoid Great Depression. Inefficient economic?

to Fishu

>>20 years ago nobody gave a crap for the pollution.

As I already said, even ten years ago streets of my city were absolutekly clear of junk. I live here, I know what I`m saing. Or did you mean air pollution and stuff? Then USA is worldwide "leader" here.

[Staga]

Originally posted by Raven_2

Fck. And how much you know about russian cars? Ever seen one? Or all you can do just blah-blah "according to newspapers I read". Ever heard of Paris-Dakkar rally? Did you know that KAMAZ team is five years in succesion winner of this race?

Lada was piece of junk thought a bit better than Moschvich Elite. Better than Fiat was IMHO.
Friend bought a Kamaz-66 and it's also a piece of junk (thought good at the woods, 4WD) with licence built Ford 4,25L V-8. Fck the fuel economy...
Samara was pretty good for a Russian car but 10 years behind western or Japanese cars.
Kraz is also having antique technic; 15L V-8 Diesel without turbocharger... 240hp where Western trucks with same size engine are pushing 500-600hp.
New Volga... Oh well; they copied Ford Scorpion's center section with doors and modelled new nose and back for it. Ugly as hell. Older Moskvich was copy of Talbot/Chrysler 1510.
Tshaika was pretty neat in its time but technic was copied from American cars; just like ZIM was a copy from Packard.
GAZ M-20 Popeda and Gaz M-21 Volga (old moosehead) were warm cars but, again, 10 years behind western cars.

Do you really want to talk about Russian cars? Well Ford Focus is also licence built in Russia; guess it's pretty good for a "Russian" car.

[Raven_2]

to Staga

>>Lada was piece of junk thought a bit better than Moschvich Elite. Better than Fiat was IMHO.

The main car in Russia was Volga, also there was Chaika. Moskvich... Well, it`s something like this Bug mini-machine in France. Economic class. Jeep class were Gaz-66 aka "Bobik" (I think that this is what you mean by Kamaz-66) - a very average car - and Niva - not a bad one.

>>Samara was pretty good for a Russian car but 10 years behind western or Japanese cars.

But we start much later :-)

>>Kraz is also having antique technic; 15L V-8 Diesel without turbocharger... 240hp where Western trucks with same size engine are pushing 500-600hp.

Well, Kraz was mainly military track and for it time, this machine was not so bad. It was not a freightliner, it was constructed for fast transportation in taiga conditions :-) Ever tried to drive Lexus or something like at taiga? It sucks :-) And jappy call it "the jeep"... Now Krazes were replaced with GAZ trucks.

>>Do you really want to talk about Russian cars?

No :-) I`m not a car-lover. Here, at Vladivostok russian cars are very rare. It`s cheaper to buy car at Japan (used or new one) and transport it by sea (less than one day) that by it in middle part of Russia and transport by railroad throught 3000-5000 km. Russian cars costs less but transport cost lower for japan cars.

BTW, AFAIK most of american car industry now collapse and buyed up by Japan?

And I don`t think that car industry have something to do with economic level of the state. Look at China. Know any car builded there?