All Union Brothers and Sisters

[Steve]

Upstairs: In the year before Enron collapsed, about 100 executives and energy traders collected more than $300 million in cash payments from the company. More than $100 million went to former CEO Kenneth Lay.

I believe the courts are handling this, but what does this have to do with the minimum wage?

[Steve]

Upstairs: In 2000, the average CEO earned more in one day than the average worker earned all year.

Blame the CEO for having more marketable skills than the workers?

[JB88]

i am 88's complete lack of surprize.

[Steve]

So please, tell me how this can be GOOD for the country? I already know it isn't "fair", hell, YOU already know it isn't "fair". We both already know it is immoral, and all kinds of other negative adjectives, even if only one of us is going to come out and say it. So tell me how it can be GOOD for the country.

Tell me again where I said your anecdotes were good for the country  Are you saying your anecdotes are how the majority of companies operate in the US?

Besides forcibly taking money from people who earn it and giving it to those who don't, what is your solution?

[Urchin]

Originally posted by Steve
Sled, I was being dramatic to make a point.  Allow me to simplify:

Any raise in wages is going to impact the price of goods/services offered by the employer, causing said goods/services to be more expensive.  Thus the consumers(you, me, and the very employees we are discussing) are the ones who bear the burden for a raised minimum wage/ artificially raised wages.


Urchin, I hope this clears up the point I'm trying to make.

See, this is where you and I seem to differ.  Let me illustrate with a brief example.  In Maryland, where I live, our Republican governor wanted to get some more spending money.  Apparently the last 40 years of Democratic governorship have completely devestated the state's finances.  So, he tells the State legislature, find some way to raise more money.  He actually wants to bring in slots.. I don't really have an opinion on them one way or the other, but most people support them in a NIMBY sort of way.

Anyway, the Democratic state legislature decides that since HMO's weren't paying some kind of tax that other medical instutions were, they'd apply that "tax" to the HMOs.  So, they did.  

Now granted I only get this from the local paper, and I may not have fully understood it all, but I'll try to hit the relevant notes.  

The biggest HMO in the state warned the government that it would have to pass the fee (I think it amounted to a few million, although I might have missed a decimal place, which would make it a few hundred million, but I doubt it) onto its customers.  

Last year, the biggest HMO made 21 cents profit on every dollar.  Or to put it a different way (the way the paper put it), for every dollar it took in, it paid out 79 cents in costs.  That included everything (administrative, whatever, not just claims vs insurance bills).  So they couldn't give up maybe 1 cent of that profit to pay the whoopee tax?  They had to pass it on to the customers?  

This is why when I see your argument that "Oh, the minimum wage is horrible for the economy, prices just go up to make up for the extra costs the minimum wage incurs" I see "Rich people aren't happy making 20% profit, they have to make 21% profit"

[Steve]

Oh, the minimum wage is horrible for the economy

You put that in quotes like I actually said that... where did I say that?

[Urchin]

Yes Steve, blame the CEO.  Does the CEO really do work that is 365+ times harder than the average worker?  

Would it not be more equitable to say, cut that in half, so he is only making 180 (!!) times more than your average worker, and give your average worker a pay raise?

[JB88]

JACK: Take the number of vehicles in the field, (A), and multiply it by the probable rate of failure, (B),then multiply the result by the average out of court settlement, (C). A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one. BUSINESS WOMAN: Are there a lot of these kinds of accidents? JACK: Oh, you wouldn't believe. BUSINESS WOMAN: Which car company do you work for? JACK: A major one.


i am 88's righteous indignation.

[Steve]

I see "Rich people aren't happy making 20% profit, they have to make 21% profit"

So, the Government should be able to dictate how much profit a private company can make?

[Steve]

Yes Steve, blame the CEO. Does the CEO really do work that is 365+ times harder than the average worker?

Maybe they are 365 times more valuable than a laboror

[Sled]

No they will just ask and ask for more until trhe company gets tired of the fleecing and unproductivity and moves production elsewhee if they can...

Sounds like an incentive for the unions to be reasonable in there request.

It was a losing battle. The union big shot filled the union workers full of "brothers and sisters solidarity" stuff at the union meeting that night. They bought it hook, line and sinker and vowed to strike.The factory was moved, the workers lost their jobs, the union guy went back to New York and I ended my career as a turnaround specialist

Yep it does happen from time to time, Not all unions are smart with there negotiations

Any raise in wages is going to impact the price of goods/services offered by the employer, causing said goods/services to be more expensive. Thus the consumers(you, me, and the very employees we are discussing) are the ones who bear the burden for a raised minimum wage/ artificially raised wages.

There are many things that effect the price of goods, Raw material cost, Fuel cost (republican controlled), Real estate cost, desired profit margins, ect. Labor cost is only one part of that equation.

[Urchin]

Originally posted by Steve
Tell me again where I said your anecdotes were good for the country  Are you saying your anecdotes are how the majority of companies operate in the US?

Besides forcibly taking money from people who earn it and giving it to those who don't, what is your solution?

Yes... when one sees "average" that typically means it is applicable to the whole.  At least, that is the way it works in math, not sure about economics.

And I don't, besides forcibly removing a government that is of the rich, by the rich, and for the rich and replacing it with one that is more concerned with protecting its citizens from the depredations of the rich.  And even I know that'll never happen, especially with the Republicans having duped ~50% of the country into voting against their own interests, and the Republicans-lite with the other 49%.

[Steve]

So they couldn't give up maybe 1 cent of that profit to pay the whoopee tax? They had to pass it on to the customers?

This is the point I'm making, now you are making it for me.  Raised wages/costs are passed on to the consumer so any increase in minimum wage/ union wages will cause prices of goods/services to raise.  Now we are making the same point.

[JB88]

Originally posted by Steve
So, the Government should be able to dictate how much profit a private company can make?

no, but an educated populous and a group of enlightened stockholders could put a foot right up its butt if they wanted too.

they could begin to go out of thier way to support corporations who have decent business practices.

i am 88's belief in a level playing field.

[Steve]

with one that is more concerned with protecting its citizens from the depredations of the rich.

Well, this has been tried a few times.  In recent history,  a country called the U.S.S.R. tried it. Do you remember how that worked out?