Author Topic: 200 Christian Homes Burned in Pakistan  (Read 2319 times)

Offline myelo

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« Reply #45 on: July 04, 2005, 08:29:31 AM »
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even Hitler could have found forgiveness and made it to Heaven.


And a newborn baby too young to "find forgiveness"?
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Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #46 on: July 04, 2005, 09:03:07 AM »
What sin has a newborn committed?
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #47 on: July 04, 2005, 09:07:56 AM »
Just a few paragraphs from Wayne Dyer.

Made a lot of sense to me, helped me be a lot happier with everyday life.

Maybe it'll make sense to some others.

Quote
Essentially, there are two points of view regarding this dilemma of your own death. The first says that we’re physical bodies that are born and we on to live for a while; we die and are dead forever. This first perspective, if you embrace it either consciously or otherwise, is terrifying from our alive viewpoint. Unless you embrace the second point of view, it’s completely understandable that your fear death. Or you may welcome it if you hate or fear life. The second point of view says very simply that you’re eternal, an infinite soul in a temporary expression of flesh. This second point of view says that only your physical body dies, that you were whole and perfect as you were created and that you physicalness emanated from the universal mind of intention . That universal mind was and is formless – it’s the pure energy of love, beauty, kindness and creativity and it can’t die, since there’s no form involve – no form, no death, no boundari8es, no deterioration, no flesh, no possibility of it wasting away.

Now which of these two points of view gives you the most comfort? Which is associated with peace and love? Which invokes fear and anxiety? Obviously the idea of your infinite self keeps you on friendly terms with infinity. Knowing you’re first and foremost an infinite being consciously connecting with your Source, which is eternal and omnipresent, is surely the more comporting prospect. Because of its infinite nature, it’s everywhere, and it then follows that the whole of Spirit must be present at every point in space at the same moment.

 Thus, Spirit is present in its entirety everywhere, which includes you. YOU can never, ever be separate from it. You’ll learn to laugh at the absurd idea that you could ever be separate from the universal mind. It’s your Source. You are it. God is the mind through which you think and exist. It’s always connected to you even if you don’t believe in it. Even an atheist doesn’t have to believe in God to experience God. The question then becomes, not whether your body I going to die, but rather on what side of infinity you wish to live. You have two choices, either you live on the inactive or the active side of infinity. In either case, you have an appointment with infinity and there’s no way to avoid it.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline myelo

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« Reply #48 on: July 04, 2005, 09:31:17 AM »
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
What sin has a newborn committed?


Good point. My pastor is always saying we are all sinners but I never understood how this applied to babies.

So to get to heaven you either:
1. Never sin
2. Sin but then ask for forgiveness.

Is that correct?

If so, where does accepting Jesus Christ as your personal lord and savior fit into this?
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Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #49 on: July 04, 2005, 09:39:13 AM »
I don't know, I'm agnostic.

I guess I'll be gong to hell, but maybe I'll get to meet Ghandi.
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Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #50 on: July 04, 2005, 09:52:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by myelo
And a newborn baby too young to "find forgiveness"?


There is an old, old story about a theologian who was asked to reconcile the Doctrine of Divine Mercy with the doctrine of infant damnation. 'The Almighty,' he explained, 'finds it necessary to do things in His official and public capacity which in His private and personal capacity He deplores.
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Offline Maverick

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« Reply #51 on: July 04, 2005, 10:34:49 AM »
Seagoon,  Check your e-mail  ;)
DEFINITION OF A VETERAN
A Veteran - whether active duty, retired, national guard or reserve - is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including my life."
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Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #52 on: July 04, 2005, 10:46:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
What sin has a newborn committed?


Hi Holden,

The Bible teaches that since the fall all mankind has inherited the sin nature of Adam along with the guilt of of his initial transgression (called "original sin"). As a result, all men are born not sinless.

We see this summarized in statements like Paul's in Romans 5 where Paul shows that death is the result of sin, and the universality of death (even over those who did not sin by breaking a command "physically" i.e. infants who die in infancy, etc.) shows the universality of sin:

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned" and "14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come." (Romans 5:12; 14)

The reason he did this was not to say "Ha ha, you're all headed to hell" but rather to show the love and grace of God in sending Jesus to be the savior or mankind, suffering the wrath that should have fallen rightly upon us and atoning for our sin, that we might have salvation. The need for this salvation is universal because the extent of sin is likewise universal. This doctrine of original sin is common to both Protestants and Catholics.

Theologian RC Sproul offers a more complete unfolding of the doctrine in this passage from "Essential Truths of the Christian Faith" which was written to explain the basic tennets of Christian theology to laymen:
-------------
ORIGINAL SIN

It is commonplace to hear the statement, “people are basically good.” Though it is admitted that no one is perfect, human wickedness is minimized. Yet if people are basically good, why is sin so universal?

It is often suggested that everybody sins because society has such a negative influence upon us. The problem is seen with our environment, not with our nature. This explanation for the universality of sin begs the question, how did society become corrupt in the first place? If people are born good or innocent, we would expect at least a percentage of them to remain good and sinless. We should be able to find societies that are not corrupt, where the environment has been conditioned by sinlessness rather than sinfulness. Yet the most dedicated-to-righteousness communes we can find still have provisions for dealing with the guilt of sin.

Since the fruit is universally corrupt we look for the root of the problem in the tree. Jesus indicated that a good tree does not produce corrupt fruit. The Bible clearly teaches that our original parents, Adam and Eve, fell in sin. Subsequently, every human being has been born with a sinful and corrupt nature. If the Bible didn’t explicitly teach this, we would have to deduce it rationally from the bare fact of the universality of sin.

Yet the Fall is not simply a question of rational deduction. It is a point of divine revelation. It refers to what we call original sin. Original sin does not refer primarily to the first or original sin committed by Adam and Eve. Original sin refers to the result of the first sin—the corruption of the human race. Original sin refers to the fallen condition in which we are born.

That the Fall occurred is clear in Scripture. The Fall was devastating. How it came to pass is open to dispute even among Reformed thinkers. The Westminster Confession explains the event simply, much in the manner that Scripture explains it:
Our first parents, being seduced by the subtlety and temptation of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin, God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory.1
Thus, the Fall occurred. The results, however, reached far beyond Adam and Eve. They not only touched all mankind, but decimated all mankind. We are sinners in Adam. We cannot ask, “When does the individual become a sinner?” For the truth is that human beings come into existence in a state of sinfulness. They are seen by God as sinful because of their solidarity with Adam.

The Westminster Confession again elegantly expresses the results of the Fall, particularly as it relates to human beings:

By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and so became dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.

That last phrase is crucial. We are sinners not because we sin. Rather, we sin because we are sinners. Thus David laments, “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me” (Psalm 51:5, NIV).
[R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith. Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House Publishers., 1992.]

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SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #53 on: July 04, 2005, 11:04:53 AM »
Forgot about paying off our ancestors debts...

But there has to be an out for infants, and those children who do not live to be infants, as they are not aware of and/or capable of making the choices available.

Therfore, as they were incapable of acceptance of the Savior, they do not die in a state of grace.
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Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #54 on: July 04, 2005, 12:05:47 PM »
Holden,

The Bible teaches that regeneration or being "born again" is the work of the Holy Spirit in men's hearts, bringing us from spiritual death to spiritual life (hence "regeneration" - new life) "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph. 2:1) the Bible also teaches us  that the Spirit works how and in whom he pleases.

When an adult is born again, which usually accompanies the preaching of the word, one of the immediate manifestations of this spiritual rebirth is faith in Jesus Christ. Thus there are observable phenomena in the life of the adult who is born again.

However, theologians have long accepted that God is also able, if he wishes, to regenerate an infant and bring them to spiritual life even in the womb, thus for instance John the Baptist was regenerated in the womb, hence the declaration of the Angel regarding John Luke 1:15 "For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb."

Thus my denomination formally confesses that the word of God teaches that both children dying in their infancy and even the severely retarded or brain damaged can be saved by the extraordinary regenerating work of the Spirit:

"Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, who worketh when, and where, and how he pleaseth: so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word." [Westminster Confession of Faith 10.3]

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
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Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #55 on: July 04, 2005, 01:21:12 PM »
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Thus my denomination formally confesses that the word of God teaches that both children dying in their infancy and even the severely retarded or brain damaged can be saved by the extraordinary regenerating work of the Spirit


So, lemme see if this is the gist.. Theologians, in essentialy the same role as Supreme Court Justices attempting to divine the intent of the Constitution, can sit down and pass 'yea' or 'nay' rulings on the scriptures.. i.e. Infant Damnations, Exceptions and Exclusions, Part 1, etc..

And then denominations, having a wealth of theological precedents to draw from can just pick and choose among the opinions for those that that fit their particular practice of faith.

Have I got that right?
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Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #56 on: July 04, 2005, 01:37:36 PM »
Hi Hangtime,

Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
So, lemme see if this is the gist.. Theologians, in essentialy the same role as Supreme Court Justices attempting to divine the intent of the Constitution, can sit down and pass 'yea' or 'nay' rulings on the scriptures.. i.e. Infant Damnations, Exceptions and Exclusions, Part 1, etc..

And then denominations, having a wealth of theological precedents to draw from can just pick and choose among the opinions for those that that fit their particular practice of faith.

Have I got that right?


No, the teaching of scripture is normative, and the final decision is always that of the word of God. The scriptures themselves are what are known as "perspicuous" - literally transparently clear and the vast majority of what the scripture teaches is so easily understood that the smallest of children might understand. In areas where the teaching of scripture is less clear, the rule that "scripture interprets scripture" is applied: "The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself: and therefore, when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched and known by other places that speak more clearly."

Additionally men and councils have and frequently do err, therefore all the decisions and doctrines of men are to be tested according to the authority of the word.

"The supreme judge by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scripture."

Therefore a creed or confession is intended to be simply a synopsis of what the dilligent search of scripture has revealed.

I mentioned the teaching of the Confession before simply because it takes less time than reinventing the wheel by gathering the various scripture quotations and showing the doctrinal links between them, I hope you will forgive me for being lazy in that respect.

A couple of years ago I wrote a short piece entitled "Why Do We Need Creeds" for publication in a Christian magazine. The essay can be found here:

Why Do We Need Creeds?

- SEAGOON
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Offline myelo

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« Reply #57 on: July 04, 2005, 04:16:03 PM »
Seagoon, thanks for the informed replies.

Could I ask a couple more questions along the lines of infants if you have time? What about adults who never have exposure to Christian teachings --for example, a hunter-gatherer in the New Guinea highlands. Is there any exception for them as for infants?

And this may seem a bizarre one but I’ve wondered about it: when an unborn baby – say a 4-week old embryo – goes to heaven, does she stay at that age?
myelo
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Offline FiLtH

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« Reply #58 on: July 04, 2005, 08:54:39 PM »
Ive found the deeper I dig..and the more I question...the more it relies on faith...and ones own hopes to what it will be like. Nobody here has the answers..only what the bible says...and in many areas Ive found its left to faith.

    Two of my biggest questions is..

1. Since living in a free society..what would it be like to serve a king again?

2. Infinity is a long time. I bore easily.

~AoM~

Offline FiLtH

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« Reply #59 on: July 04, 2005, 11:03:14 PM »
Spiritual Update:

  Had a discussion tonight with my sisters' sister in-law about whats after death. Shes big into re-encarnation, all these spiritual self-help type books that are out there. Rather than to discuss my beliefs, and what Ive been taught through the years from a religious point of view ( Im not educated enough in the bible to do that), I went at it from a totally neutral pov.

   Whenever we have a get together around a campfire, or the like..she usually starts talking about these books shes read that "explains" life to her. I hold nothing against her..its her life..but I dont like her dragging my sister..who has always been easily swayed, into this self help self centered stuff shes into.

   So..me being me..I cant keep my mouth shut. The discussion began with UFOs. Naturally, science is the area where my faith is tried the hardest. She..of course believes in them, abductions and all that crap. I said..think of this. Our planet is special in that its just far enough from the sun to survive its heat, has an atmosphere that protects us from its radiation, and of course has the water that without, nothing would be alive.

   Now imagine..even the furthest star to be fair has this same planet type. Imagine further that this planet has an advanced species that can actually travel to us. What would be the odds...in all the billions of years...that the two different worlds..would have living advanced civilizations..on the same time line. Odds are an asteroid would end one civilization at some point in time starting it back to square one.

  And if they could travel to us..why wouldnt they land, and teach us how to better improve our lives. I cant help but think that any species that made it to the point they could space travel light years across space..must have conquered war,greed, aggression. That said..why wouldnt they help us?

  Why? Because that world is likely in its birth, or the ruins of its once great civilization are buried under millions of years of dust. "But what about all the reports of victims of abductions? They cant all be lying can they?" she asks. Chances are they are either lying, or they think they are telling the truth. Which is more likely an hallucination, a dream, or even government abduction. Im not X-Files conspiracy nut...but that is more likely than aliens landing and doing this.

  But enough of the space talk. It eventually led into what happens when we die. Like so many campfire chats have done for eons. Like I said..I wanted to keep an religious viewpoints out of the discussion. So I asked her..."If you were suddenly made aware that when you died..it was nothing. But more than that...you ceased to exist so completely, you werent aware of the blackness, the nothing that you bcame. Would that bother you?"

  She replied something along the lines of "But I dont believe that.." and continued with what she believed. Which basically is you determine your destiny in how you think about things..a mixed bag of karma, buddism, witchcraft, christianity all balled up in one glass half full view of things.

  What I told her is the reason she cant imagine it, is because she is selfish. She cannot imagine that there could be a possibilty that she..someone who gone through so much to get where she is today...childhood, schooling, life lessons, good and bad, marriage all the memories, friends, family...could end up a pile of ooze in the bottom of a casket. I told her there is one form of re-encarnation...its when your body's flesh and water, returns to the earth to rejoin the cycle of life, to feed microbes, than may one day feed other things to become new life. And..that her idea of re-encarnation was that of someone too self-absorbed, too shallow minded to realize that a "spirit" may just be her sub-concious working with her chemical/electrical charged brain. And  that her view of what she really is, is actually so insignificant, so unimportant in the big picture of not only this planet, but of the universe as a whole.

  She ended up turning me off..getting real cold as the topics changed yet again to lighter talk.

  I am a Christian. Not a very good one. Im full of questions, and have talked to many pastors over the years, and usually end up with none of them satisfying me, and usually with more questions than I started with. I think these thoughts as I mentioned above. It tries my faith greatly. Some days are better than others. What I learned tonight is that to talk to someone who is so lost, yet so sure of themselves...from either side..religious, or from a more scientific view, about the afterlife, its pointless. THEY ARE RIGHT, YOU ARE WRONG! Why..because your answers dont appeal to them. They dont fit their life. Sacrifice might have to be made...guilt may have to be carried. They cant have that. Its all about "ME!".

    In closing...I pity her. But I pity all of us. We are in a life full of questions, with few answers. You have to chose your own path. She can can set hers upon books written a few months ago, I'll  chose mine to follow the book written many many years ago. Who knows...maybe its all wishful thinking. If it is...whats it matter. If there is something to it...I'd rather be ready.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2005, 11:12:11 PM by FiLtH »

~AoM~