Spoke to Pyro re Spits

[Wotan]

Originally posted by Squire
I have a Q. for the 109 lads:

What if the 109G-14 with MW50 was added? is that a rough equivilant to a Spit XVI with 25 lbs boost? yes, no?

Cuz that varient might be coming...

And, more importantly would it be perked? , sry I slipped, just ignore that last part.

No a G-14 wouldn't have any where near the performance of a Spit XVI with 25lb boost...

A G-14 is just a G-6 (just like the one in AH now) with MW-50.

All MW-50 does is allow if higher boost to be run below FTH. It does this but cooling the charge.

The current G-6 does a max of 386 mph. A G-14 would be a round 415 mph.

The G-6 and G-14 wouldn't have any where near the performance of the AH G-10 at altitude. The G-10 and K-4 have a larger supercharger (DB603). It provided better performance at altitude...

The reason I prefer a G-14 is it will give better speed then the current G-6 at and below FTH (low alt speed) and still be as maneuverable as the G-6.

I will provide a few SS comparisons taken from IL2 compare. I only provide these to give a general understanding of the performance differences in the 109s in question. There's no need to debate the specifics here.

First the G-6 - G-14



At mil power the G-6 and G-14 are about the same. Only at wep do you really see a difference.

G-6 Entered service and saw action with II/JG 53, II/JG 77, JG 27 and JG 51 in February 1943. (Prien & Rodeike)

So the G-6 is a '43 aircraft

About 5500 made (abt. 1000 of which were G-14/AS versions)
G-14 entered service with II/JG 11 and Stab/JG 53 in July 1944.

G-14 would be July '44.

If Pyro keeps the a 'G-10' then we need not worry about a G-14/AS or G-6/AS. The G-10 can sub...

Next the G-14 - G-10 (real G-10 not AH's hybrid G-10/K-4):



The G-10 is faster all round plus has a higher FTH then the G-14 at both mil power and wep. In WETO ToD the higher FTH will be important in dealing with the escorts and bombers. Neither the G-6 nor G-14 can match the G-10 (or the G-6/AS, G-14/AS; which the G-10 can sub for).

The G-10 entered service Oct '44. The G-6/AS entered service in May '44, the G-14/AS in or about July...

Here's a G-14/AS - G-10 comparison:



Its labeled as a G-6/AS in FB but it really is a G-14/AS because it has MW-50 (remember G-6 + MW-50 = G-14)

Now a real G-10 - K-4 comparison:



Now you see there's quite a difference.

IMHO the 109s (covering '43 onward...) needed for AH would be:

G-6 '43
G-14 July '44
G-10 May - Oct '44 (depends on if used as a sub or not for the AS')
K-4 Oct '44 with a small perk...

All of these have their roll.

The G-6 is needed for '43 WETO and Ost Front

G-14 would be preferred over the G-2 and G-6 in the main but not any where near the performance of the current G-10. Used in both WETO and Ost front. They could use the same Late G-56 model and adjust the FM/performance.

G-10 why get rid of it? Just adjust the FM/performance. It will use same model as K-4. Just a different skin.

K-4 - final late war 109...

[Kev367th]

Strange you'd like 3 1944 109's (2 free, 1 perked?), yet merry hell breaks loose when we ask for ONE free 1944 spit.
Add to them the free 1944 190s.
Just how much of an advantage do some of the community want?

No the LF XVI at 18lbs boost is NOT 1944, more accurately its a 1943 Spit LF IX. Spits ran 18lbs boost starting with the Merlin 66 in 1943.

Not aimed specifically at you Wotan, but as a general comment on the whole 1944 Spit/190/109 situation which is totally one-sided as it stands, and would still be if the 16 comes in at 18lbs.

[Wotan]

I told you before the dates of introduction are irrelevant. Every 109 could be from '44  and it wouldn't matter.

A G-14 is not a G-10 and a G-10 is not a K-4...

Each are unique important variants and there inclusion in AH isn't based on dates but on 'need'.

With all the excitement about Spitfires folks over look the fact that the Spitfire in '44 was all but irrelevant. Hell there were more RAF Mustang IIIs at 25lbs boost then Spit squadrons running 25Lbs...

So don't confuse your want for certain Spitfires with 'need'. As I said I don't care one bit about the main. That's the only place a planes like a 25lb boost Spit XVI would make any impact.

There is no reason that just because one country has 10 aircraft to chose from that another country must have the same number. Or if one country has 3 from ;42 another country needs 3 from '42...

So you introduce planes based on 'need'...

Ah needs a G-14, it needs a G-10(or AS 109) and it needs a K-4...

Does it 'need' a 25lb Spit XVI? Not hardly... Does it need 15 version of 44 spitfires? Not hardly...

You seem to forget all about the Ami planes that the LW faced... Many of these planes were being flown by the RAF. Not to mention the '44 variant Typh and the Temp that's already in AH...

There is no Spit v 109 competition to see who gets the most ingame...

[Kev367th]

No-one has asked for 15 spits, in fact during our discussions we threw out a lot of Mks because they were either irrelevant or too small production runs. We came up with 6 including the perked XIV.
We actually thought about discarding the Mk 8, but it is NEEDED for Far East scenarios.

3 to choose from in 1944? We should be so lucky, how about giving us ONE.
After all a 1943 Spit LF IX is NOT a 1944 Spit LF XVI.

Spitfire in 1944 was irrlevant?
Try looking at the makeup of Home Command and 2TAF then feed me that again.
http://www.raf.mod.uk/dday/rafu.html
I still can't believe you expect anyone to believe that?
Irrelevant enough to help finish the War in Europe
Irrelevant enough to continue the war in the Asia.
Irrelevant enough that Seafires scored the last kills in the Far East.

Fighter Command ordered 3000 F.21s (would have 3rd highest made Spit), but order was cancelled at end of war after only 120 had been delivered. Lot of time, effort and money to waste on such an irrelevant aircraft.

Spits served in almost every WW2 theatre right up until the end,  something NO 109 or 190 can claim. Irrelevant, I laugh at you.


I did have a lot more after the above, you may know your 109's, but I think your Spitfires were all but irrelevant in 1944, just about sums up your ignorance on Spitfire history.

[Wotan]

You edit your post 2 hours later...?

Any way, you have complained from time immortal about how HTC 'hates Spits' so lets not pretend you are only 'asking for this or that...'

You are straight up whining...

Who cares if there were 3 '44 109s in the set? The Spit XIV is @ 21 lbs boost is a 44 ac btw...

So would a Spit XVI @ 18 lbs boost clipped wing, tailer tail and bubble canopy etc... would be a late '43 / '44 Spitfire...

There is no reason that just because one country has 10 aircraft to chose from that another country must have the same number. Or if one country has 3 from '42 another country needs 3 from '42...

Quit the dramatics...

There will be no 'Far East Scenarios' in the near future... (if at all, whose gonna fly for Japan? No one...)

If you can read, this is what I said:

With all the excitement about Spitfires folks over look the fact that the Spitfire in '44 was all but irrelevant.

I didn't say irrelevant I said all but...

The Spitfire's contribution to the WW2 was very limitied to begin with in the overall scope of things. It wasn't a primary in BoB. During the Circus / Rodeos it wasn't a 'war winner'.
 
Into late '43 and on into '44 it was the the big 2 Ami planes that carried the air war, P-47 and P-51... There are plenty of those in AH some that can be skinned as RAF...

The only place the Spitfire had any real impact is the MTO. Even then it was mixed in with half dozen other decent aircraft all of which are equally desireable to have in AH. Spits may have served 'every where' but no where was the 'Spit' a deciding factor.

The 109s and 190s served from Norway to North Africa, France to Russia ect...

5500 G-14 were produced alone, 12 G-6s etc...

All your complaining about an 18lbs Spit XVI is nothing more then another version of 'everyone hates Spitfires'...

The RAF has plenty of planes in AH..

P-51B/C, F4F (Martlet), F6F, F4U Typh, Temp, Hurris etc...

The Spitfire line up that has been suggested is a fine one. Why start whining now? It ranks right up there wiht you 'we need a 2 x 20m Vc' whine a while back...

Pyro called it right:

There has been some advocacy for a +25lb boost clipped wing Mk XVI. I really don't see what hole that fills. It would pretty much fall into the same category as the XIV. I have no qualms with that plane, but I think going with a 2000+hp version of it would be a waste as it would end up perked and CM's wouldn't use it much either.

Outside the main its usefulness would be limited so much so that folks would wonder why bother adding a XVI at in the first place...

[Kev367th]

I edited my post when I realised what I had put was way out of line.

Thats the whole point.
For a late war 1944/45 scenario it is NEEDED. Unless you are going to have the RAF represented by wholly Spit 14's.

As for perking it, were Mk XVI Spits that damn good in actuality. or is it knee jerk reaction along the lines of big Ki-84/P47N it has to perked hysteria.

When it gets to the point you would have to perk a Merlin based Spitfire I'm sorry my whole attitude towards this game is starting to change. This old private LW/US boys club is really starting to get old.

We are not getting a bubbletop Spit so your premise is invalid. As I stated a Spit XVI at 18lbs is exactly the same as a 1943 Spit IX at 18lbs boost. Only difference is where the engine was manufactured.

Yes the Spit 14 is a 1944 aircraft, we NOT allowed a free 1944 Spit?

Spit 8's equipped all but one of the Far East squadrons.

Just because the LW never got to serve in the Far East it's no reason to rule out the Spit 8.

But what the hell ,have your free 1944 LW rides, be smug when you beat up on a earlier Spit, enjoy your hollow victory.

When it comes to usefulness a certain TA-152 spings to mind.

Personally you wouldn't want any Spit that could beat up on a 190/109, just admit it, and get it over it.

[Karnak]

Wotan,

That Bf109G-14 looks really nice for AH.  I'll definately have to play around with that one.

The use of the Spit XVI at +18lbs boost would be to increase the roll rate and keep the "e" wing in 1944 where it belongs.  The use of the Spit XVI at +25lbs boost would be to represent the improved Spit performance of the 2nd TAF from mid-1944 to the end of the war.

Kev,

You're over reacting.  The concerns about the +25lbs XVI are well founded.

[lasersailor184]

Quick question.  All these boost levels you are talking about on the spits...


Is that normal military power or WEP that the boost ratings you are giving?

[Kev367th]

Hi Karnak,

So slap an 'e' wing on 1943 Spit IX and call it 1944 Spit XVI - sigh, no performance improvment, nothing.

Thank god in real life they continued to develop it and didn't cease increasing performance.

Odds looking good for high ENY (poss 5/6) perked Seafire L III.

Conscerns would be well founded if it had the speed to go with climb rate. It just doesnt.

Over reacting, yeah possibly, but the 'almost irrelevent' part of the last dribble got to me I guess. All of that post wasn't almost irrelevant it was irrelevant and I possibly should have just ignored it. Oh well.

[Karnak]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
Is that normal military power or WEP that the boost ratings you are giving?

WEP.


Kev,

See my post in your Spit XVI - Please reconsider thread.

[Wotan]

Personally you wouldn't want any Spit that could beat up on a 190/109, just admit it, and get it over it.

Keep telling yourself that... It won't make it true...

Your problems are with HTC not me... After all they 'hate Spitfires' right...

Go ahead say it a few more times...

Guppy's suggestion that the Spit XVI be a clipped 'e' puts it into '44...

A G-14 isn't necessarily a '44 aircraft, they were re-designated as G-14s. They were originally referred to as 'G-6/U2' and were in limited service as early as Aug '43...

Not only are you whining about the Spits, you are whining about 109s and have very limited knowledge to do so...

Why do keep harping on the 152? No one even flies the damn thing... It has zero use in ToD or scenarios...

Mein Gott im Himmel!!! We may end up with no '44 109s if the G10 is taken away and the the K-4 perked!!!!

We only have a 109 thats really a '43 variant!!!!!

Sweat jesious!!!!!

HTC hates 109s... You all just afraid that a decent 109 will pwn you alll!!!!!!!...

[Guppy35]

I had an interesting conversation at the Legends Airshow, with Clive Denny, who flies restored Spits.  He has a bit over 150 hours in them, many of those in a restored Spit Vb.

I asked him what they were like to fly.  His comment was that  they were almost too easy.  He laughed and said it would have almost made more sense to start pilot training in Spits and move on to Tiger Moths and Harvards afterwards.

So what's the point?  Apparently the folks who designed the Spit got it right.

As a "Spit Dweeb", I can quit feeling guilty for flying them, even though it's been hammered into me that the Spit is a dweeb plane since my first days in Airwarrior way back when.

Now we've heard that we're going to get a good representative list of wartime Spit variants, but the XVI is too good to let it have the performance it had in 44-45.  

You end up going from all excited to heavy sigh as here we go again, thankful for the new variants but disappointed you don't get the performance because it might upset the applecart in the arena.

In the end i'll go tooling around in a clipped XVI at +18 boost just cause it looks good and will fit my Spit fanatic's history imagination.

But I'll be wishing for that +25 boost when the runners go racing by and I can't catch em

Where's Kurfurst when we need him, to tell Pyro what a hunk of junk the Spit is?

It's still why I say unperk em all.  The 109 Junkies should have all the variants at their disposal.  The 190 fans as well.  As should the Tiffie Tempest boys or the Corsair fans.  

It's my fault if I get in the way of their guns.  Let em have their fun too

Dan/CorkyJr

[Kev367th]

OK got to the point where I think this is all we need

Spit I 12lbs boost
Spit Vc 16lbs boost
Spit LF IXe 18lbs boost (clipped wing)
Spit F XIV 21 lbs boost

Seafire III

No extra Spits still only 3 free ones, 1 perked one + the Seafire. ( keep the 'not another spit' brigade happy)

Just gives us them I'll be happy

[Karnak]

Dan,

I understand, but all things being equal I would rather have a Mk XVI at +25lbs with a low end perk price than a free Mk XVI at +18lbs.

If the choice is between historical performance but perked lightly and underperforming but free, go for historical performance.  The goal is to have a range of Spit performances covering the development of the Spit through all of WWII and for that we really need it to be +25lbs boost.  If it needs to be perked, so be it, but we need the full performance range.

What I'd like is to see it come in free and then be perked if it needed to be, as happened to the F4U-1C.

I'd also like us Spit fans to be understanding about the needs of the AH Main Arena and understand how ideally suited to that environment the LF.Mk XVI at +25lbs boost is.  It is almost the perfect fighter for the way the AH MA works and that is all that MA perk status means.  It has nothing to do with ToD really.

Kev,

That list would make me quite unhappy.  I don't like clipped wings and I don't like the "e" wing.  That would mean no Spit for me.  If that is what Pyro does so be it, but you have the tone of stomping your feet for not getting exactly what you want right now, e.g. "Fine, see if I care, just keep it how it is!"  I think you  might need to calm down a bit.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Karnak


Kev,

That list would make me quite unhappy.  I don't like clipped wings and I don't like the "e" wing.  That would mean no Spit for me.  If that is what Pyro does so be it, but you have the tone of stomping your feet for not getting exactly what you want right now, e.g. "Fine, see if I care, just keep it how it is!"  I think you  might need to calm down a bit.

As for the clipped E wing.  That's the production Spits from mid 44 on.  The XIV, IX, XVI all had the E wing.

I picked up a book while at Legends called 2 TAF Spitfire, and in there it suggests that there was a factory mod to the Universal wing that allowed for essentially E wing armament as early as late 43 with some 485 pilots and armorers claiming that as early as October 43, their Spit IXs were so equipped with 2 20mm and 2 .5 cal MGs

With the Spit LFIX and LFXVI being used by 2 TAF most were clipped wing birds.

I'd still go with the original list even if it means only an +18 boost clipped LFXVIe.

The FIX with universal wing for 42
the LFVIIIc with more internal fuel and univeral wing for 43-44
The LFXVIe clipped with 3 hard points for 44-45

Too many skinning options and scenario uses not to do all three if possible.

The idea of flying 457 RAAF shark mouth Spit VIIIs in a scenario would be a blast as would flying 417 RCAF VIIIs in the MTO or USAAF VIIIs in the MTO

And of course 602 Squadron LFXVIes in a scenario at some point too

Dan/CorkyJr