Author Topic: The Arrogance Of A "Scientist".........  (Read 3625 times)

Offline Cabby

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The Arrogance Of A "Scientist".........
« on: March 28, 2001, 05:22:00 PM »
Just caught a few minutes on TV of the conference on human cloning(didn't catch the hi-falutin' official title)and  some pony-tailed, bearded "geek"(in other words, he looked like a prototypical Leftist-Liberal) i assume was a geneticist, was expounding on the virtues of un-restricted scientific pursuit of human cloning.  I didn't catch the buffoon's name.

He regaled his audience with statements such as :

"Religion has always been the enemy of Science"(partly true, but "always"???  BS).

"Science should be free of Religion and Science ITSELF should be the Religion"(revealing statement there, to say the least).

"Religion has killed millions while Science has SAVED millions(or words to that effect)".

This "scientist" is an ignorant ass.  

While it is certainly true millions have died in the name of Religion, i wonder if this jerk is aware it's SCIENCE(and Technology)that gave the human race the thermo-nuclear bomb, napalm, the machine-gun, and many other interesting methods of burning, enviscerating, and poisoning of our fellow human beings.

This idiot thinks "True Science" is absent of any form of Ethics or Morality.  Apparently this guy is ignorant of Einstein and other great Scientists of note.  Not only that, this geek obviously missed many of the great Sci-Fi literature and cinema of the past 100 years whose plots were based on the Science vs. Ethics  question.  As in "Frankenstein", for starters.

"Pure" Science is great, but without ethics and morality, Science becomes just another agent of bitter oppression and an engine of death.

That "scientist" should have been run-off the podium.

Cabby

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funked

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The Arrogance Of A "Scientist".........
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2001, 05:32:00 PM »
Yep the only difference between a lot of "scientific" people and religious people is the institution in which they have placed their blind unquestioning faith.

Offline R4M

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The Arrogance Of A "Scientist".........
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2001, 05:58:00 PM »
Religion doesnt kill people.

intolerance does.

The fact that there are more intolerant religious people than scientifics, doesnt hide that there are BOTH intolerant scientifics and believers.

you might say that religious intolerance was only in Inquisition days...Granted, go to afghanistan and try to convince them about genetics, and human evolution. I wont bet you would stay alive for more than 2 hours. In fact I would be surprised if you last so long.
+

 
Quote
While it is certainly true millions have died in the name of Religion, i wonder if this jerk is aware it's SCIENCE(and Technology)that gave the human race the thermo-nuclear bomb, napalm, the machine-gun, and many other interesting methods of burning, enviscerating, and poisoning of our fellow human beings.

It gave us, too, electricity, calefaction, houses, cars, computers, radio, TV, radiologic treatments for cancer, Plastic, Medicaments, etc etc etc.

Two sided blade here. The atomic bomb was a nasty thing, but the peaceful results of the atomic research are not. Genetics can save lots of lifes even before being borne,but also can bring us the human clonation era, and the "Doctor, design a perfect kid for me&my wife".

The fact that the science has produced so much deadly things cannot be blamed on science itself. But on the humans who use it.

(posted by a deep believer).


[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 03-28-2001).]

Offline bowser

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The Arrogance Of A "Scientist".........
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2001, 06:09:00 PM »
If it's religion vs science in a "who killed the most" contest, it's not even close.  Religion has had a long head start, and hasn't slowed down.  

bowser

Offline Dinger

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The Arrogance Of A "Scientist".........
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2001, 06:11:00 PM »
Golly-geemit, I actually agree with Cabby.
I'm too far left to consider myself a Liberal Cabby, but I'll say this:

"Religion has always been the enemy of Science."
I try to do history for a living. One of my research fields is history of science. That statement is the biggest crock of toejam the 19th century ever dumped on Western culture (and the 19th C has dumped many crocks of toejam on Western culture).  And surprise, it all came out of morons on both sides of the Darwinism debate.
The whole "history" of Religion being the enemy of Science is a fabrication of this debate.  Columbus's contemporaries all new the world was spherical; in fact, they had a far better idea of its true circumference than Mr. "Let's just sail 3000 miles W of Spain and hit JApan" Moron.  Galileo wasn't imprisoned for saying the truth; he was imprisoned for repeatedly making an bellybutton of himself and asserting as true what he could not prove.  And the list goes on.

Iff you equate "Religion" with the extreme-right reactionary, bible-beating morons who try to apply a literal interpretation of the King James Version of the Bible to the scientific phenomena, then yes, Religion is the enemy of Science, and has been for, at most, 150 years.

Religion doesn't kill. People do, and with technology they do it really well.
Religions often serve as a method of distinguishing one's own group from others, and therefore justifying wars, but the belief in God alone doesn't do it.  I'd argue for some basic anthropological forces that get expressed in religion.

Now, I disagree about everything else Cabby says.

[This message has been edited by Dinger (edited 03-28-2001).]

Offline Tac

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The Arrogance Of A "Scientist".........
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2001, 07:37:00 PM »
In this aspect of things I agree with Cabby.

That scientist sure as heck wasn't ignorant. But he was a BIG ass. Being smart doesnt neccesarily make you wise.

Offline -ammo-

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The Arrogance Of A "Scientist".........
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2001, 08:06:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by R4M:
Religion doesnt kill people.

intolerance does.

The fact that there are more intolerant religious people than scientifics, doesnt hide that there are BOTH intolerant scientifics and believers.

[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 03-28-2001).]


Good post RAM, but I gotta ask the crowd, Why should us "religous" people..(i dont like the word religion, that is too big a bowl to put us in, I am a believer in Jesus Christ as the savior of all those who will believe) be tolerant, God is certainly not tolerant of sin? God abhors sin, cannot allow it into heaven. While I dont think that we oughta go out and kill folks over it, I certainly dont have to accept their sinful lifestyle as just another way of life..that is OK because its only fair. Balogna. I belive in an objective truth, not a subjective one.

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Offline Dinger

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The Arrogance Of A "Scientist".........
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2001, 08:11:00 PM »
'cos you ain't God, nor should you even pretend to be, that's why.  It's His job to judge.  The fact that you live surrounded by what you see as sin doesn't mean you have the right to persecute them; you make neither yourself nor the "sinner" a better person.  Nor should the preponderance of sin in society blind you make you ignore the fact that you too, are unworthy of God's grace.
You may believe in an objective truth, but the Truth you hold is one you believe, and you will not know until later.

That's why.


[This message has been edited by Dinger (edited 03-28-2001).]

funked

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The Arrogance Of A "Scientist".........
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2001, 09:21:00 PM »
Dinger:  There is a big difference between "not accepting" a person's behavior and "persecuting" that person.  

Just because my brother does something bad, it doesn't mean I shouldn't love him.  But just because I love him, it doesn't mean I shouldn't try to help him change his behavior for the better.

As long as that distinction is clear, I agree 100%.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 03-28-2001).]

Offline leonid

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The Arrogance Of A "Scientist".........
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2001, 10:19:00 PM »
I have to agree with Cabby.  Religion is not a bad thing, nor is science.  They have collided from time to time, but only because they ask the same basic questions: who am I?  What is all this?  But religion and science have cooperated tremendously as well.  Just look at the Islamic world from about 900-1200AD.

That scientist was a disgrace to his profession.

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Offline -ammo-

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The Arrogance Of A "Scientist".........
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2001, 10:25:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Dinger:
'cos you ain't God, nor should you even pretend to be, that's why.  It's His job to judge.  The fact that you live surrounded by what you see as sin doesn't mean you have the right to persecute them; you make neither yourself nor the "sinner" a better person.  Nor should the preponderance of sin in society blind you make you ignore the fact that you too, are unworthy of God's grace.
You may believe in an objective truth, but the Truth you hold is one you believe, and you will not know until later.

That's why.


[This message has been edited by Dinger (edited 03-28-2001).]

well I assure you that I knwo what i am, a simple man, sinner but saved by grace. I have no thoughts of myself being even remotely close to being what God is in Deity. I certainly do not judge, but I can tell a person by his actions, certainly a liar is a liar, and a murderer is a murderer, I ditn judge them but I for sure know what they are, and do not have to accept them either.

"The fact that you live surrounded by what you see as sin doesn't mean you have the right to persecute them; you make neither yourself nor the "sinner" a better person."

What I see as sin? I use the Bible as the ultimate in truth. I dont need to make up definitions for sin...it is spelled out pretty well. And persecute? I do nothing of the sort, but I certainly will not offer praise or acceptance for their lifestyles. I can offer a way out and lead them to a savingf knowledge of Christ but that is all.. Persecution? I dont think so. But I will not say joe "having an adultrous relationship" is OK..He just looks at life differently, he lives a fast paced "feel good" lifestyle and hes no worse than me.. The bible calls that sin sir and so do I. I am not picking on any one in particular, just used them as an example. So am I tolerant of sin..No way, No how, not in my household or my little realm.

I consider myself only a simple Man, striving to be a good Godly example for my Boys. I live day to day Relying on God to guide me. Not my own strength, but His.
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Sandman_SBM

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The Arrogance Of A "Scientist".........
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2001, 11:03:00 PM »
Truth?

 
Quote
When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as it suggests in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her? I also know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Now I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself? Then, Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians. Can you clarify?

A friend of mine also feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 10:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? And Lev. 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?


Okay.. which part is truth again?

Offline GRUNHERZ

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The Arrogance Of A "Scientist".........
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2001, 11:24:00 PM »
Sounds stupid but no way around it guys:

PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE

Whether they missuse religion or science it doesnt matter, ultimatly it happends because a person makes a decision. Religion and science are just implemets of human society, just big symbolic tools.

Offline StSanta

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The Arrogance Of A "Scientist".........
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2001, 11:27:00 PM »
Heheheeh, ok, I shall find the most rabid ranting religious nutter (might already ahve him right here!) I know, then make him the poster boy of religion, and from this, I'll deduct that ALL religious people must be exactly like this dude.

Nice try Cabby, but obviously utterly flawed.
If we talk about science on a broad scale, it must be said that it has been hampered back to the days of Galileo Galilei) by religion, since it has moved in on the turf covered by religion (and previously mentioned religious nutters  ).

But his statement is overly broad, and this chap is oblivious to the history of science. indeed, many of the early scientists were religious.

Science is a methodology, not a religion. This dude is just a love muffin, no biggie.
Regarding technology, scientists develop the technology. Politicians use it. Those of you in favour of having the right to own a gun should know the argument of "guns don't kill people" and that is essentially what we have here. And science, or the spinoffs hereof, have enabled us to live past 35, deal with diseases and do lots of stuff that was unthinkable a mere 200 years ago.

I think there are very very few scentists who do not think science should have ethical and moral considerations included.
This chap is just a dweeb. probably just some lab technician working for one of those places that help people get babies to the world.

He is saying what he's saying just to piss religious people off, and hiding behind his labcoat.

Yep the only difference between a lot of "scientific" people and religious people is the institution in which they have placed
their blind unquestioning faith.


Now funked, I didn't expect it from someone as educated as you.

The scientific methodology differs radically from the any religion. And it's not faith based. Anyone with a decent understanding of the scientific methodology would know it is just that - a set of methods put together to accomplish something. Saying that science and religion require the same level of faith is a bit disturbing I think - for one, for a scientist the only thing almost as good as coming up with a new theory is destroying an old one. And as time has shown, once new data enters, old theories that do not match them are reevaluated and might be dropped entirely. With religious dogma, this is very rare indeed.

Christianity, for instance is founded on faith. In some sects or variants, if there were proof on the existane of god, it should not be mentioned or even dealt with; because the *faith* in God is what matters.

This differs drastically to the scientific methdology.

Just for fun, take a look what the devil's dictionary has to say about faith:

From THE DEVIL'S DICTIONARY ((C)1911 Released April 15 1993) :

FAITH, n.  Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

 

In short, one love muffin unidentified "scientist" making inflammatory statements that are wrong. but please, feel to state that this is how every scientist is based on this  .

If you do, I have some very nice examples of religious people you ought to see  

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funked

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The Arrogance Of A "Scientist".........
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2001, 11:47:00 PM »
Sorry Santa, but you don't understand science too well.  It may work as you say the ideal case, but in practice we can not personally verify every "fact" upon which the assumptions for our own work are based.  In order to get anything done, practicing scientists have to accept some things without proof, with the blind faith that others have honestly and correctly confirmed that theory and experiment agree.  In most modern fields of science, there is simply too much information for things to be done any other way.  For us to verify every "fact" that we base our work on, would take a lifetime and then some.