Author Topic: good book...  (Read 4085 times)

Offline Jackal1

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good book...
« Reply #135 on: September 12, 2005, 06:02:35 PM »
Another valiant effort...............
-------------------------------------------------------
Colorado Springs FFL Crackdown

From: crl@craycos.com (Curtis)
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 09:25:58 -0700
Organization: Cray Computer Corporation

Last year the BATF in Colorado Springs decided that they were going to check out all of the Federally licensed dealers of firearms in town. The media reported it as a no big deal inspection, it actually turned out to be a strong arm tactic from the BATF t o remove as many licenses as possible.

The only way I know about this is a friend of mine was the recipient of these tactics. He is a small time dealer that makes only enough profit to fund his personal collection as well as target and hunting costs. He has never been suspected of anything ill egal and has no criminal record of anykind.

He had been recording his sales for years and paying all necessary taxes on business to all agencies. He maintained the current laws on gun dealing and followed them. He had started a small business and was paying the necessary taxes to operate a small bu siness.

They came to his house to to inspect his records looking more like commandos than government workers. On inspection of his records they found that a person who bought a pistol from him 6 months ago had mistakenly entered the current date instead of their birthdate. They told him they would charge him with saling a firearm to a minor since he had sold a pistol to a 6 month old child. He offered to have the person come over who had purchased the pistol to straighten out the paperwork. They said "fine", then they pulled their trump card.

"There's this little matter of a zoning violation. You have been operating a business from a residence not zoned for that". Forget that the city, state and county had accepted his small business tax money for years and not complained once.

Then they gave him **THE** option.

"You can fight us in court and risk 6 months in jail and $5,000 for every day you operated a business in a area not zoned for that, **OR** you can surrender your Federal Firearm License and we will forget the whole thing.

When an ordinary citizen with little financial resources is offered an option like that from the federal government it's not very hard to figure out which option he chose.
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline beet1e

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good book...
« Reply #136 on: September 12, 2005, 06:04:37 PM »
Only 80 lives? A mere "pittance" - :lol;)

Offline Toad

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good book...
« Reply #137 on: September 12, 2005, 06:06:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Raider179
No people shooting at Law Enforcement Agents performing a LEGAL WARRANT execution got them killed.


Do you say the warrant was Illegal Toad? Or do you just think it was a bad plan?


I'm saying

1) BATF failed to pursue all the options to arrest Koresh and/or inspect the "compound". There was no need for the major force raid at the time it was executed.

2) The raid was botched beyond belief. There are some statements that US military forces were involved which would be a singular violation of the Constitution. I will do some more checking on that.

Perhaps if they HAD performed an inspection, they'd have had a better idea of the layout and possible defenses of the area before the raid. As it was, they got their own officers killed in a bungled, incompetent raid.

BATF has a history of screwing up. You just need to open your eyes. They are probably the worst of the armed Federal agencies.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Jackal1

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good book...
« Reply #138 on: September 12, 2005, 06:17:00 PM »
Well..at least thanks to the BATF we are safe from the attack of the vitamin ales. :)
------------------------------------------------------
May 1994 issue of REASON Magazine, Pages 25 through 29
By Jacob Sullum

Even before Waco, people in the booze
business were afraid of the Bureau of
Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms.

A 12-ounce bottle of Grant's Scottish Ale contains 170 percent of the U.S. Recommended Daily Allowance for vitamin B-12. I can legally tell you this because I don't make beer for a living. But Bert Grant, creator of Grant's Scottish Ale, can't.

In January 1993, a few months after Grant and his wife, Sherry, started putting nutritional information on six-pack cartons of the beer, David Dunbar, an inspector with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, visited their Yakima, Washington, brewery. Dunbar told them that Yakima Brewing & Malting is not allowed to inform consumers about the vitamins and minerals in a bottle of beer. This surprised the Grants, because neither the Federal Alcohol Administration Act nor the regulations issued under it address nutritional information. The regulations do, however, forbid false or misleading claims about "curative or therapeutic effects," and the BATF cited a 1954 regulatory interpretation that says "any reference to vitamin content in the advertising of malt beverages would mislead a substantial number of persons to believe that consumption of the product would produce curative or therapeutic effects."

The Grants had to stop using the Scottish Ale six-pack cartons and drop plans to put nutritional information on the packaging of their other beers. But the rule seemed silly to them. So Sherry Grant wrote a press release about the BATF's order and sent it to some trade journals. "We felt it should be brought out, because we wanted the law changed," Bert explains. The story eventually attracted attention from the mainstream press, including Playboy and radio commentator Charles Osgood, as well as industry publications. The coverage was sympathetic to the Grants and critical of the BATF. An editorial in the Vancouver Columbian, for example, called the BATF policy "hypocritical on its face" and argued that "more information, not less, is the way to encourage better choices."

"Then the coincidences started," Bert recalls. Dunbar, the BATF agent, came back several times to look at the Grants' records and grill the couple and their employees, spending a total of three weeks at the brewery. She says Dunbar, who declines to comment on the case, had an intimidating, confrontational manner. "It scared me, because in the back of [my] mind, there was always this picture of Waco," she says. "And then I got really, really angry, because I thought, 'This is wrong. I should not have to be afraid of my own government."'

During 1993, Bert estimates, the Grants had to devote about a fifth of their time to dealing with one regulatory problem after another. Among other things, the BATF said they had to get the label for Grant's Celtic Ale reapproved because of a change in color. And the bureau decided that Grant's Spiced Ale, which the brewery had been producing since 1985, had a "frivolous" name that required a generic description - "A Fermented Ale with Added Spices and Honey" - in letters as big as the name.

Worst of all, the alchemists at the BATF transformed Grant's Cider, which the company had been producing since 1984, into a wine by bureaucratic edict. The financial consequences of that trick are serious. Under federal law, hard cider is exempt from excise taxes, but wine is taxed at $1.07 a gallon. The BATF claims that the Grants owe back taxes on the cider-cum-wine for nine years, plus the annual occupational tax for wineries, plus interest, plus penalties.

The bureau has not yet informed the Grants what all that will come to, but it could be hundreds of thousands of dollars. For a small business like Yakima Brewing & Malting, which produces about 9,000 barrels a year, that would be a significant hit. And the tax liability is in addition to some $100,000 in legal fees and lost sales that Bert estimates the hassles with the BATF have already cost the brewery.

The Grants feel they are being punished for criticizing the bureau's censorship. "It doesn't matter what you do for a living," Sherry says. "You still have a right to free speech. And I shouldn't have to worry about the government coming down on me for what I think or say."

The BATF denies any link between the Grant's recent troubles and the conflict over nutritional information. "There is no conspiracy," says Les Stanford, a BATF spokesman in Washington, D.C. "There is no connection between the two issues." Whether or not the BATF decided to retaliate against the Grants, their case illustrates the arbitrary power that the agency wields over brewers, vintners, and distillers. Entrepreneurs like the Grants operate in an environment of uncertainty created by vague regulations, inconsistent enforcement, unpredictable policy changes, and capricious decisions that apply retroactively. Long before the Waco fiasco made the BATF notorious, producers of alcoholic beverages had reason to fear the bureau.

"If you know how the average citizen feels about the IRS, the industry is in even greater fear of the ATF, because they have such awesome power over their very existence," says Jerry Mead, editor and publisher of The Wine Trader. "They can yank your license. You can appeal, but so what? You're out of business....If you piss them off, they can come in and audit your books. Even if they don't find anything wrong, they totally disrupt your [operation] for days, sometimes weeks, going through everything. And the ATF probably could find something wrong with just about anybody's operation, if they were really looking."

In the case of Yakima Brewing & Malting, practices the BATF had known about for years suddenly and inexplicably became violations. The bureau had never before complained, for example, that Grant's Spiced Ale, a name that seems straightforward and descriptive, was in fact "frivolous." Furthermore, as Sherry Grant notes, the BATF continues to allow the use of many fanciful beer names-including Pete's Wicked Ale, Labatt's Blue, and Blackened Voodoo-without demanding special explanations on the labels. "Tell me they're not picking on us," she says.

This combination of fuzzy rules and selective enforcement is an invitation to abuse. While ostensibly pursuing its regulatory mission, the BATF can punish businesses for criticizing the bureau or offending the wrong people. In 1992, for example, the BATF threatened to rescind its approval of labeling for Crazy Horse malt liquor after then Surgeon General Antonia Novello called the name "an insensitive and malicious marketing ploy" aimed at appealing to Native Americans. Since the bureau is not supposed to pass judgment on the propriety of target marketing, it cited a different concern: the use of three phrases on the label-"Fine Blend," "Lot No. 0690711," and "Registered at the Brewery" that it considered confusing or misleading. These phrases had apparently escaped the BATF's attention when it approved the label two months before.

A similar reversal involved PowerMaster, a malt liquor that the BATF approved in 1991. Like many other malt-liquor brands, PowerMaster was aimed mainly at inner-city blacks, but it attracted special attention because it had a higher alcohol content than its competitors. After Novello called the product "socially irresponsible" and anti-alcohol activists expressed their outrage, the bureau decided that the word Power was a veiled reference to alcoholic strength, which brewers are not allowed to advertise. It instructed G. Heileman Brewing Co. to remove the word from the product's name. The brewer, which had spent more than $2 million on research and marketing, decided to scuttle the venture.
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline Jackal1

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good book...
« Reply #139 on: September 12, 2005, 06:22:42 PM »
We are also safe from those threatening museums :)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The BULLET

The Official Publication of the Western Missouri Shooters' Alliance

Permission to reprint material granted, with full attribution

September, 1994

The BATF raided the North Carolina Military Museum and found (gasp) automatic weapons!!!! All legally registered. The museum curator was arrested nonetheless for possession of these guns, some ammunition, deactivated artillery shells, and a dewat rocket launcher; all legal.

NRA Alert July 1, 1994

BATF BUST IN BOONE, NORTH CAROLINA

The curator of the North Carolina Military Museum was the target of a BATF raid Tuesday, June 28. With search warrants in hand, ATF agents seized about 20 fully automatic firearms -- all legally registered to the curator -- inert artillery shells on display and about 100,000 rounds of small arms ammunition, according to the curator. Agents claimed the shells contain powder residue -- yet were clearly labeled "EOD INERT." Agents also claimed that the ammunition could have been stolen from the military. Curator Greg Pruess told NRA Public Affairs that he holds a Class III and a destructive device manufacturing license.

Pruess noted that ATF's computer print-out of the Class III firearms he had registered was inaccurate and said the agents did not know how to identify some of the firearms in question.

The small arms ammo was stored in a storage building adjacent to the museum. Once the agents noted the extent of the ammo, they called the press. Parroting comments made by the agents, local reporters said an explosion of the ammo cache could have cau sed a crater a half-mile wide. (Later news reports expanded the crater porential to a mile-wide.)

The agents came across an RPG launcher (inert, with operating devices welded-over) and allowed a member of the news crew to shoulder it while videotaping. "This is the kind of communist bloc weaponry" that prompted the raid, an agent told the press.
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Offline Jackal1

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good book...
« Reply #140 on: September 12, 2005, 06:26:13 PM »
Pregnant women are also a large threat to our society.

--------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Brooks promises BATF investigation
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 94 17:39:12 -0500
Message-ID:

{{...}}
"House chairman attacks federal gun agency

WASHINGTON, Oct 6 (Reuter) - The chairman of the House Judiciary Committee Thursday said Congress should curb the power of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms to take guns away from Americans."

{{...}}

"As an example of what he said were ATF's abuses, Brooks introduced Louis and Kimberly Katona of Bucyrus, Ohio, who described an ATF raid on their House in 1992 to seize more than $100,000 worth of weapons they had collected.

Kimberly Katona said she suffered a miscarriage after she was shoved during the raid and her husband was indicted on 19 federal firearms violations. A federal judge dismissed the charges and ordered the weapons returned.

"It's been 2.5 years of hell," Louis Katona said. He said he is suing the agency."
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Offline Suave

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good book...
« Reply #141 on: September 13, 2005, 08:14:40 AM »
If you haven't seen this yet slap yourself about the head and shoulder region vigorously.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/view/

Offline lazs2

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good book...
« Reply #142 on: September 13, 2005, 08:33:30 AM »
well... nice timeline of the events... lets take everything a little at a time here tho raider...

first...  you claim to have extensive firearms experiance yet never owned or  own a firearm... anyone here who likes guns thinks you must be....uh.... exagerating... or maybe you got your "extensive experiance" by being forced to shoot like in the military?

You can't tell if a bullet came out of a semi auto that has been "converted"

The firearms taken from the fire were melted in most cases but not destroyed... I could examing them for you and tell you if they had auto sears or not... anyone with "extensive firearms experiance" probly could..

The davidians were not charged with firing on ATF agents or murder... Why is that?  You are within your rights to fire at unidentified people engdangering your life.

We can take all your other points one by one but let's work on the first ones first.  and...

I gotta ask.... since you admit that the ATF and FBI consistently lied during the investigation and botched or destroyed evidence..... How can you believe anything they ever say again when their is no absolute proof?   How can you not believe citizens who claim the ATF framed em?   Do you agree that every FBI and ATF agent caught lieing in order to cover up or convict a citizen should be instantly fired?

lazs

Offline Iceman24

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good book...
« Reply #143 on: September 13, 2005, 12:14:56 PM »
[ I don't rely on the government for anything besides protection from external invasion and maybe some good roads. Beyond that I expect nothing[/B]



I will agree with you there lol

Offline wrag

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good book...
« Reply #144 on: September 13, 2005, 12:18:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Raider179
Any of you gonna answer all these questions or just go off on your own tyraids? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


Child Protective Services had ALREADY been out there with NO PROBLEMS!

Have you even bothered to try and examine issue?

The information you KEEP asking for is posted already, are you reading it?

NO ILLEGAL FIREARMS charges were brought against these people.

WHY NOT?

CLAIMS were made by the Feds but they REFUSE to allow any one to see the items that they are using to make the claims.
It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.

Offline Raider179

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good book...
« Reply #145 on: September 13, 2005, 12:36:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1
We are also safe from those threatening museums :)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The BULLET

The Official Publication of the Western Missouri Shooters' Alliance

Permission to reprint material granted, with full attribution

September, 1994

The BATF raided the North Carolina Military Museum and found (gasp) automatic weapons!!!! All legally registered. The museum curator was arrested nonetheless for possession of these guns, some ammunition, deactivated artillery shells, and a dewat rocket launcher; all legal.

NRA Alert July 1, 1994

BATF BUST IN BOONE, NORTH CAROLINA

The curator of the North Carolina Military Museum was the target of a BATF raid Tuesday, June 28. With search warrants in hand, ATF agents seized about 20 fully automatic firearms -- all legally registered to the curator -- inert artillery shells on display and about 100,000 rounds of small arms ammunition, according to the curator. Agents claimed the shells contain powder residue -- yet were clearly labeled "EOD INERT." Agents also claimed that the ammunition could have been stolen from the military. Curator Greg Pruess told NRA Public Affairs that he holds a Class III and a destructive device manufacturing license.

Pruess noted that ATF's computer print-out of the Class III firearms he had registered was inaccurate and said the agents did not know how to identify some of the firearms in question.

The small arms ammo was stored in a storage building adjacent to the museum. Once the agents noted the extent of the ammo, they called the press. Parroting comments made by the agents, local reporters said an explosion of the ammo cache could have cau sed a crater a half-mile wide. (Later news reports expanded the crater porential to a mile-wide.)

The agents came across an RPG launcher (inert, with operating devices welded-over) and allowed a member of the news crew to shoulder it while videotaping. "This is the kind of communist bloc weaponry" that prompted the raid, an agent told the press.


This curator?

Greg Pruess?

This one?

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/us_v_pruess.docket.txt

2/21/95  --      PLEA entered by Gregory Roland Pruess. Court accepts plea.
                 Guilty: Gregory Roland Pruess (1) count(s) 8 (Terminated
                 motions: ) (smj) [Entry date 02/23/95]

2/21/95  --      Plea and Rule 11 hearing as to Gregory Roland Pruess held
                 before Judge Voorhees in Statesville.  Deft. is sworn and
                 present w/retained counsel Jerry Parnell and AUSA Church is
                 present for the govt.  Peterson is the reporter.  Deft.
                 pleads guilty to Ct. 8.  Rule 11 inquiry and findings are
                 made and accepted by the Court.  F/B & Sentencing are
                 deferred. (smj) [Entry date 02/23/95]

he plead guilty in a plea bargain. Yeah he was innocent :rolleyes:

Your other story I could find ZERO corroborating evidence of.

Offline Raider179

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good book...
« Reply #146 on: September 13, 2005, 12:48:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
well... nice timeline of the events... lets take everything a little at a time here tho raider...

first...  you claim to have extensive firearms experiance yet never owned or  own a firearm... anyone here who likes guns thinks you must be....uh.... exagerating... or maybe you got your "extensive experiance" by being forced to shoot like in the military?

You can't tell if a bullet came out of a semi auto that has been "converted"

The firearms taken from the fire were melted in most cases but not destroyed... I could examing them for you and tell you if they had auto sears or not... anyone with "extensive firearms experiance" probly could..

The davidians were not charged with firing on ATF agents or murder... Why is that?  You are within your rights to fire at unidentified people engdangering your life.

We can take all your other points one by one but let's work on the first ones first.  and...

I gotta ask.... since you admit that the ATF and FBI consistently lied during the investigation and botched or destroyed evidence..... How can you believe anything they ever say again when their is no absolute proof?   How can you not believe citizens who claim the ATF framed em?   Do you agree that every FBI and ATF agent caught lieing in order to cover up or convict a citizen should be instantly fired?

lazs


It was close to military training. ROTC Rifle Team for 3 years.

I never said you could tell the difference.

Like I said, after the initial assault there is no reason the BD's couldn't have surrendered and had their day in court. Koresh even promised to surrender and re-nigged so he could keep talking to god. He used the children and adults as bargaining chips so he could spread his "message".

Voluntary mansluaghter means they killed someone when they didn't have to, or werent supposed to, but it is understood how it could have happened.

That still does not explain why they didn't come out for 2 months and I maintain they were not planning on coming out alive.

As to answers for your questions

1)Most federal agents are professionals. Like any institution you are gonna have bad apples. Also like I said I know a lot of federal agents and it re-affirms my belief that most are not "ninja's".

2)Yes, fired and charged.

Here is a question to you.

Do you think the police (local,state) are ninja's too? or is it just feds?

Offline Raider179

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good book...
« Reply #147 on: September 13, 2005, 12:53:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by wrag
Child Protective Services had ALREADY been out there with NO PROBLEMS!

Have you even bothered to try and examine issue?

The information you KEEP asking for is posted already, are you reading it?

NO ILLEGAL FIREARMS charges were brought against these people.

WHY NOT?

CLAIMS were made by the Feds but they REFUSE to allow any one to see the items that they are using to make the claims.


Still havent gotten answers to these...But I understand why, pick and choose what questions make your side look better instead of answering all of them.

4)Did the Branch Davidians after the inital assault, come out and face their "day in court"?

5)Was the government trying to kill them or just force them to leave the compound?

6)Do you think you have the right to repulse government agents executing a legal search warrant with fire-arms?

7)Do you think as a citizen of this country you are obligated to abide by all laws?

Offline wrag

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good book...
« Reply #148 on: September 13, 2005, 01:20:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Raider179
It was close to military training. ROTC Rifle Team for 3 years.

I never said you could tell the difference.

Like I said, after the initial assault there is no reason the BD's couldn't have surrendered and had their day in court. Koresh even promised to surrender and re-nigged so he could keep talking to god. He used the children and adults as bargaining chips so he could spread his "message".

Voluntary mansluaghter means they killed someone when they didn't have to, or werent supposed to, but it is understood how it could have happened.

That still does not explain why they didn't come out for 2 months and I maintain they were not planning on coming out alive.

As to answers for your questions

1)Most federal agents are professionals. Like any institution you are gonna have bad apples. Also like I said I know a lot of federal agents and it re-affirms my belief that most are not "ninja's".

2)Yes, fired and charged.

Here is a question to you.

Do you think the police (local,state) are ninja's too? or is it just feds?


The head of the BATF in about or around 1990 was trying to obtain AH-1 attack helo's and allot of other military equipment.  That individual was later removed from that position.  Seems there were a few BATF agents that let the world know what was happening.

I watched a BATF agent attempt to cow a shooting range manager.  Came in and ordered the manager to give him all his membership records.  The agent was very aggresive.  The shooting range manager did not comply.  No one spoke no one enterfered.  The two went round and round for about 10 minutes and the BATF agent left without any information.  IMHO that BATF agent was WAY out of line and was attempting to obtain information he had NO right to.

The Local Law Enforcement people can be abusive YES.  

On the overall I'd have to say NO.  Most local's are pretty good, even excellent, law enforcement people.  They do the job they signed on for and rarely if ever overstep the bounderies one associates with GOOD law enforcement.

L.A. Cal.  Is probably the best example that comes to mind of abuse.

That department has been caught in some very serious cases of abuse.

I recall one instance when a drug raid was pulled on a ranch, the owner was killed,  and NO drugs of any sort were ever found.  Caused a pretty big stink.  Was not too long after the drug forfiture laws were inacted.  Word was it was an attempt to grab that ranch and sell it for funding?

So you perhaps might understand Raider many people consider this kinda stuff just cause for being anti-BATF.

I'm NOT anti-law enforcement.  It's a rough, difficult job I would not care to have.

I am however very AGAINST any law enforcement agency that goes beyond the boundries of the bill of rights, any agency that SEEMS to treat we the people with contempt, any agency that SEEMS to behave in an arrogant manner, which all too frequently the BATF SEEMS to do.
It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.

Offline wrag

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good book...
« Reply #149 on: September 13, 2005, 01:33:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Raider179
Still havent gotten answers to these...But I understand why, pick and choose what questions make your side look better instead of answering all of them.

4)Did the Branch Davidians after the inital assault, come out and face their "day in court"?

5)Was the government trying to kill them or just force them to leave the compound?

6)Do you think you have the right to repulse government agents executing a legal search warrant with fire-arms?

7)Do you think as a citizen of this country you are obligated to abide by all laws?


A Chief Justice of the Supreme court answered Number 7 for you.

Pretty sure it was Joseph Story.

I believe he said any law that does not comply with the constitution is NULL and VOID.

I'm pretty sure he was including the Bill of Rights.

Also  .............

"I know no method to secure the repeal of bad or obnoxious
laws so effective as their stringent execution."
Ulysses S. Grant (1822-1885)
American president

and.........

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." - Plato

and ................

"How should it happen that the individual should be without rights, but the combination of individuals should possess unlimited rights?" —Auberon Herbert

As to number 6  ...

Depends..........

Consider we are all of us now under threat of terrorist attacks.

How am I supposed to know who they are if they don't tell me thay are executing a legal search warrent?

"Never forget that if you leave your law to judges and your
religion to bishops you will presently find yourself without
either law or religion."
George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)
Anglo-Irish playwright, critic

"Many politicians lay it down as a self-evident proposition
that no people ought to be free until they are fit to use
their freedom. The maxim is worthy of the fool in the old
story who resolved not to go into the water until he had
learned to swim.", from Lord Macaulay an English historian.

"The basic test of freedom is perhaps less in what we are free
to do then in what we are free not to do."  Eric Hoffer
American philosopher.

"Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking
others to live as one wishes to live."  Oscar Wilde Anglo-
Irish author.

"I think that the sacredness of human life is a purely
municipal ideal of no validity outside the jurisdiction. I
believe that force, mitigated as far as may be by good
manners, is the ultimate ratio, and between two groups of men
that want to make inconsistent kinds of world I see no remedy
except force . . . It seems to me that every society rests on
the death of men."
Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes (1841-1935)
American jurist

Are we a free people?
It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.