Question for the tinfoil hatters:

[Pooh21]

its Vor!

[Sandman]

Originally posted by VOR
Try re-reading the Turner Diaries. It will give you strength and resolve. Right?

[Sixpence]

Originally posted by Hangtime
There once was a guy named Weaver. Wife, 3 kids, cabin in Idaho. Had the misfortune of living close to an Aryan Nation camp. Weaver also had what was at the time he bought it a legal $50.00 shotgun. He sold it.. and sadly the guns original wood stock (not the barrell) was 3/8" too short for the new federal gun regs, it no longer qualified as a legal class 1 firearm.

No biggie.. just a class 2 form to fill out, a $5.00 tax due.

The BATF try to coerce this guy Weaver into infiltrating the Aryan Nation Camp for them. They threaten him with confiscation of his property on the basis of the illegal shotgun sale if he does not comply. Weaver tell's 'em to go to hell.

They arrest him. Charge him with the illegal sale of a class 2 firearm. Since the guy has no criminal record he's released on a $10,000 property bond and issued a summons to appear. Unfortunately, the date on the sumons was diffrent than the date on the court clerks rgister, and when the apperance date came up, Weaver was not there. An arrest warrant was issued.

The Weaver residence was put under close survelience. Ninjas. The eldest son, 14 years of age, and a family friend were investigating what his dog was barking at on the property one morning when both the dog and the kid were shot dead. The family friend returned fire, killing the ninja that shot the boy and the dog, and retreated to the cabin.

At this point there are over 400 federal agents in and around the Idaho hills surrounding the property. There are Air Force jets doing photo survelience.. the place is surrounded by humvees, APC's and law enforcement types.

Despite this, the father and the family friend recover the body of the boy and place him in the shed behind the house. The next morning, the father and the eldest daughter (16) leave the cabin to check on the body of the boy when they come under fire from a ninja sniper. The sniper wounds the father, they retreat towards the cabin.. the wife, holding (and nursing) a 10 month old baby girl catches the next sniper shot in the side of the head, spilling her brains across the cabins kitchen wall. The bullet also criticaly wounds the family friend.

With me so far.. ?? this is all for a $5.00 tax infringement; a trumped up charge to induce a citizen to rat out another. The government has spent more money on this one stakeout and frame that it did on the gathering of intel prior to the invasion of haiti.

Weaver was aquitted.

Death toll 3, 2 citizens and 1 ninja. This in not 'tinfoil hat' ****; it's fact.

For $5.00

Now, I ask again.. when do we, WHERE do we draw the line?

So a seat belt law leads to this? law and order lead to this?

Or was it an illegal act by the government?

[SirLoin]

Originally posted by lazs2
Ok... Government is a disease that thinks it is its own cure.

Same could be said for religion...and when the two get together for some policy making...

Theocracy...not democracy.

[Leslie]

I had heard accounts the (undercover) federal agent pressured Weaver to sell the shotgun to him and had requsted Weaver do the shortening of its length as a condition of the sale.  I was under the impression the barrel had been sawed off to under 18".  Didn't realize stock length or overall length was a factor.

Notwithstanding the lack of wisdom by doing that, it sure seems like entrapment to me, law enforcement  pressuring someone to break the law.  Though not the tragic ending as in Weaver's situation, the same mindset was employed when Marion Barry was busted.  I recall from news  that Barry was very reluctant to bring out the contraband that day but was so hounded about it he finally did.  Entrapment again.

Even here in Mobile a few years ago during Mardi Gras, undercover police dressed up as bums were going around bothering parade goers, asking for money.  When a father with his kids and wife there told the bum to shove off, he was arrested and thrown in the paddy wagon.  What the hell was that all about???  Entrapment.

Stupid?  Yes.  What gets me is why would anyone think up something like that in the first place.  That coulda been you or me there.  Is the lesson to just let bums pester your family at Mardi Gras  and not tell them to go away?  Guess so.

The good thing about it was that practice only happened that one year.  It really makes me wonder what kind of mind thinks up these things, and for what purpose.  The Mardi Gras incident is an example of the mindset at the time.  The ones hassled by the undercover police were an average family in a "safe" family oriented area (no alcohol).  Panhandling agressive bums had no business there.

That happened years ago (early 90s?).  Hasn't happened since.  I respect the police and think such strategies are misguided, albeit it may have been the Janet Reno influence trickling down.  Hope that never happens again and will vote accordingly.




Les

[SkyWolf]

Originally posted by Sixpence
So a seat belt law leads to this? law and order lead to this?

Or was it an illegal act by the government?

I don't know. I'm a registered gun owner with 5 long guns and 17 hand guns. I've never been hassled by law enforcement about guns... in fact a shoot with a few officers.  I was also taught that the cardinal rule of encounters with law enforcement is:
Be cooperative and STAY Alive. Grab a lawyer, sue, go to the media, pee in someone's cornflakes LATER.... but STAY ALIVE. Tough to get on top if you are DEAD. If you look out of your house and see Government employees with guns... don't wave any guns AT them. Do whatever they want and get even later. Weaver was an irresponsible dumboscar who got his family killed due to his lack of brains.

[Ghosth]

Laz, hangtime, well said all around. Bravo!  <> even.

But Sixpence has a point as well.

This is "supposed to be" goverment of the people by the people for the people.

Its turned into goverment of the buerocracy, by the politcians, for the power brokers.

And we let it happen.

It started when we let them "Pay" people for doing their civic duty. Like being a congressman or senator.

It got worse when we let them get control of financing. WWII era legislation allowing
income tax withdrawel, etc gave them control.

its happened ever time another of our rights are eroded, and we do nothing.

If nothing else, accept they fact that they want us to be like sheep.

They want to tell us what do to, where to go, what we can have. And they want to shear us once a year of course.

Well stop being sheep, be a goat, be a llama, be a donkey be PO'd.

And be active!

[lazs2]

So jab... your point is that a government controling your life and taking your freedoms is not evil if it was done without evil intent?

Ok..Let's just say that the result is evil..  I don't really care what the intentions or lack thereof are.

as for Weaver... he knew his guns and gun laws... the feds tried to get him to saw off the barrel to an illegal length and... even tho he needed the money he told em no.   He also knew what the legal overal length should be... he claims that the stack was further shorteded after he sold it...

I believe him...

In the Waco hearings... the ATF and FBI are caught time and time again in blatant lies.   Huge ones that photgraphic proof points out... lie after lie..  after these two cases..

Whenever the FBI or ATF says anything that conflicts with the people they wish to arrest.... I gotta have some doubt about who is telling the truth... to me... their reputation was forever tarnished by these high profile events... it seems clear that they will say anthing to get out of trouble or make a case.

This is not good folks..

Vor... you would like "Unitended Consequences" much better than turner diaries... better written and without the racism.  It is actualy a very good book.   Even the critics admit that the historical aspects of gun control in this country were accurate in the book.

We are not supposed to be afraid of the government... they are supossed to be afraid of us.

If Waco Wayne had killed nothing but ATF agents then I would have had a lot more sympathy for him.

lazs

[Charon]

I think it's the sort of good intent that results from "I don't mind banning what I don't use anyway". Non gun-owners don't mind banning guns; city-dwellers who take the subway don't mind gas-guzzler taxes; people who've never been to court don't care if "due process" is whittled away. Somewhere along the way, as a nation we lost our determination to protect the rights we don't use as strongly as we protect the rights we use.

Hear! Hear!

Charon

[Hangtime]

Originally posted by SkyWolf
Do whatever they want and get even later.  

There's a small flaw in that reasoning.

 

In Weavers case, there was no demand for surrender. No announcement that they were there to arrest anybody.

They just shot the dog and the kid, then killed his wife.

This is not a 'mistake'. It's Policy[/i].

Mayhaps you'd like to review the data, read the investigation transcripts and then have a look at similar 'smash and grab' raids.

Now, there's a 'terroist threat'. Ever notice that every single time we're 'under threat' our rights are abridged? Under the guize of the Patriot Act, more citizens than ever are getting their rights trampled.

Under the guize of 'local emergency' law abiding citizens homes were illegaly searched, legal weapons confiscated. Just happened in New Orleans.

Nice, how the government insures that every law abiding citizen in a disaster area is unarmed, sending a green light to the criminals that every person THEY see is defenseless.

Ok.. lets leave the gun issue issue for a moment. Anyone ever been through an FAA Ramp Check?

But hey, this is America. Couldn't happen here, right?

[lazs2]

Yep... when a half a dozen heavily aremed black clad ninjas smash down your door in the middle of the night and start shouting and shooting the pets and you (if you try to defend yourself)....  

and then you find out that they were really your government and that the whole thing was because they thought that you were either...

(a)  someone else or
(b)  had not regestered (and paid the $200 tax) on some of your firearms.

You might think that they were being a little heavy handed..

When they tore your house apart and either didn't find anything or took away some firearms that you knew were legal and that became "machine guns"  sometime between them taking em and the next time you seen em in court....

When you realize that not only will you pay the court costs and the $10,000 fine but that you will be sent to a federal prison for five years for your heinous crimes (bout four years longer than a repeat rapist or mugger)  even tho you had never committed a crime in your life...

you might begin to think things were screwy.

lazs

[Leslie]

At my present income level it would take me 5 years to pay the fine, and that's with all my income.




Les

[J_A_B]

"So jab... your point is that a government controling your life and taking your freedoms is not evil if it was done without evil intent?"

MY point was the people who fear the government taking over kinda miss the point--it already has.  Plus I was hoping someone would provide a motive for the government's perceived need to oppress the people it already controls.

Oh, and do you by chance like your county Sheriff's office better than your local PD or the FBI or something?  

J_A_B

[Samiam]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
Don't confuse the loss of rights with democracy.

The loss of rights comes from communism.  Pure and simple.

Uh, not quite.

Ever hear democracy discribed as four wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner?

Our freedoms in the U.S.A. are not unique because our government is founded on democratic principles. We are free because our incredibly thoughtfull founding fathers believed in inalienable rights and built them into our constitution. We are supposed to have individual freedoms that  are protected from the tyrany of the majority. When these rights are diluted, the tyrany of democracy becomes real.

[lasersailor184]

No.  Take a look at some of the basic characteristics of communism.


We are slowly adapting communistic principles.  It would not fly if it had happened all at once.  But over 100 years?