Proof from HTC that Hispanos are accurate. plz dont ignore

[Nath-BDP]

 

The USN fount that there was 1 stoppage per 5000 rounds fired.
Thats not THAT unreliable.

Quote your sources and how these test were done.  Was this test done on the ground or in an airborne a/c? What was the delay in between fired  bursts?

Just saying "1 stoppage per 5000 rounds" doesn't mean anything.

P.S. The big problem with the Hispano is its dispersion the Hispano has very little dispersion compared to the MG 151 which is like a spray gun.  I posted a topic in the A&V forum asking why the Hispano dispersed so much less than the MG 151 and no one was able to explain why the MG151 dispersed so much more than the Hispano.

[Westy]

".. have been killed at these distances. Dont try and claim grunhertz is imagining things."

No one is doing any such thing. But! Remember, this isn't real life. We are tetting more live fire time than just about any WWII Pilot ever could have and we also have that big honking icon out there to tell us that the aircraft we want to shoot is still just within range. As an unkown prophette once said, "Spray and you shall receive! (ie. the kill)"

 It's the whole MA thing that allows planes and thier weapons to be used out of context from their real life counterparts. When will some of you get that through all that lobol shielding?

 Is it real? No. and neither is flying the way folks do in the MA.

 Show some real kind of evidence that the Hispanos are porked. Or petition HTC to have the F4U-1C removed. In the case of removal, I give the Typhoon about three weesk before it replaces the 1C as the focus of whineage. then it will be the Spit IX or 190-A5 when the Tiffie is yanked. Pyro has spoken many times on the Hispanos. I suggest you do a search and 'edumacate' yourself on what they think about the subject.

 -Westy



[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 12-15-2000).]

[funked]

"no one was able to explain why the MG151 dispersed so much more than the Hispano."

Because it doesn't.

[GRUNHERZ]

Hi

Great discussion so far guys and it hasnt degenerated into a brawl, keep it up. Theres hope for us yet.   One thing some of you brought up was the kills happend cuz a guy was able to spray forever hoping for a lucky hit. Last night I was reading Bud Anderson's book and he said you always had to fire in short bursts, or the barrel lining/rifling would melt and would kill any accuracy of weapons. Maybe this needs to be implemented in some form?? Id still really appreciate to hear something from HTC about Hispanos, please guys?

thanks GRUNHERZ

[Yeager]

Bud Anderson's book and he said you always had to fire in short bursts, or the barrel lining/rifling would melt and would kill any accuracy of weapons. Maybe this needs to be implemented in some form??
====
A feature of this depth belongs in an adult simulation of combat, not a teenagers cannon orgy fest.

Yeager

[Vermillion]

Nath, the 5,000 round number comes from official comparison testing the USN did, and was reported at the Joint Fighter Conference at NAS Patuxent River, MD 16-23 October 1944.

The Report of the Joint Fighter Conference, edited by Francis Dean is availble from Schiffer Military History. ISBN # 0-7643-0404-6

The discussion Karnak is referencing starts on page 154 and continues thru 175.

A few highlights

 

p.157 To give you some idea of the 50 versus the 20 and dispel a lot of ideas that have bothered us, I would like to give you a comparison.  When someone goes from four 50's to two 20's, to the layman that means a decrease in fire power.  Actually the reverse is true.  In the horsepower of the gun, one 20 is equal to three .50's. In the actual rate of fire delivered at the target, one 20 equals three 50's; in kinetic energy at 500 yards, one 20 equals tow and one-half 50's.

That adds up to four 20's equaling twelve 50 calibers, judged by those standards. Of course you have other advantages of the 20. You have much greater penetration of armor. The 20 will go thru 3/4 inch of armor at 500 yards, while the 50 cal, will go through only .43 inchs.  In addition to that you have one more great advantage - that is, you can have longer and more frequent bursts without damage to the gun with the 20 than you can have from the 50 cal.

 

page 158, The same comparison holds true for the 30's and 50's, as has held for the 50's and the 20's. Two 30's are approximately 1/3 to 1/2 as effective as one 50.

 

page 159, We have developed some wonderful strafing techniques. They are sinking destroyeers and they have stopped Cruisers dead in the water with 50-cal gun fire. Its a tremendous weapon.  When we get these 20mm's out there, its is going to be even tougher. They can put a pretty good size ship out of commission with them.

 

page 162, Another thing that is coming up is the cooling of guns in the wings. This is a serious problem with strafers.  The boys quite often burn out every gun they have got in one dive and then come back and raise hell.  While it is initially hard to tell a pilot that you are absolutely limited to the number of rounds you can get out and still save your rifling, you still ahve your barrel in a fit condition to fly. When he wants to shoot 200 rounds, he wants to shoot 200 rounds. The fact that it is an impossibility - the gun won't do it- sometimes doesn't seem to make any difference to him. You are held down to 75 rounds for your initial burst and 25 rounds thereafter in your 50 cal, but in the 20mm, that doesn't hold true.

 

page 163 (discussing BuOrds' testing of 20mm at Dahlgren) Dahlgren assures us that you will get an absolutely reliable gun for 5,000 rounds, and if you take care of it you might get 20,000 rounds out of it. Of course 20,000 rounds is quite adequate.

There is a whole lot more, but I'm tired of typing. Buy the book and read it for yourself if you don't believe me.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[SKurj]

Hispanos have a muzzle velocity nearly double mg151's don't they?

U guys claiming to have been killed by hispanos at 900 yrds... we know net issues result in actual firing range to possibly be 300-500 yrds less than that, so.. I propose you up in chogs and film yourselves getting kills at these ranges and posting them here as proof.  Hell if 2 of you on 2 different teams were to work together in the MA and play drones for each other it should be real easy to do.

AKSKurj

[This message has been edited by SKurj (edited 12-15-2000).]

[Jigster]

 

Originally posted by funked:
"no one was able to explain why the MG151 dispersed so much more than the Hispano."

Because it doesn't.

Draw you own conclusions...

 

I've arrowed the biggest differences. This is from the ground, in both planes with full fuel and the engines running (to make recoil reaction measureable) Set the congvergence the same and fired for 3 seconds. Cowling guns on the G10 were not fired.

Note how high the MG151's go above and below the gunsight (from the gondolas) and how wide they spread past the begining of the 45 degree bars.

[GRUNHERZ]

yep, great screenshot

[Jigster]

From Verm's post:

That adds up to four 20's equaling twelve 50 calibers, judged by those standards. Of course you have other advantages of the 20. You have much greater penetration of armor. The 20 will go thru 3/4 inch of armor at 500 yards, while the 50 cal, will go through only .43 inchs.

Okay if this is taken as a vaild source for gun reliability let's use it for armor too.

Panzer IV H armor:

Front Armor = 82.0
Side Armor = 30.0
Rear Armor = 21.0
Front Turret = 80.0
Side Turret = 33.0
Rear Turret = 30.0
Top Armor = 10.0

According to the book, at 500 yards (with no ammo specified) it can penetrate 19mm of armor.

So looking at that, the Panzer IV is invulnerable to the Hispano with the exception of the roof armor of the engine starting at the turrent ring and ending at the grill hinge. But in reality it's not that simple. And neither is gun reliability, unfortunately.

[LJK Raubvogel]

 

page 163 (discussing BuOrds' testing of 20mm at Dahlgren) Dahlgren assures us that
                     you will get an absolutely reliable gun for 5,000 rounds, and if you take care of it you
                     might get 20,000 rounds out of it. Of course 20,000 rounds is quite adequate.

That's a nice reference, but that number isn't referring to jamming in any way. It is stating that the lifespan of the gun is 5,000 rounds if taken care of properly.  


------------------
LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps

 

[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 12-15-2000).]

[Jigster]

Btw here's a film I took in the training arena. Hopefully the link will work.
 http://bigdweeb.homestead.com/files/film67.zip

Note at one point how many pings hit me at once (4 .50 hits and 2 Hispano hits)

According to him he was actually further away then what the films shows (he said 1.4)

anyway this is only an example of multiple hits at range and neither promotes or discards and opinion on whether guns could hit that many times in a row. But those kind of hits ARE possible.

[Westy]

 I agree that no 20mm or .50 calibre should be able to take out an armoured vehicle like a Panzer. It should be able to disable an Osty's guns and waste the M16 or M3 for sure.

 NOw. About the screen shot. Isn;t dispersion the cone of fire your shot makes? What I see above is dispersion jst about even. However the Hispano's go straight much further while gravity takes it's effect on the MG's. Then again. The Hispano's had alot more velocity didn't they?

-Westy

[GRUNHERZ]

Hi

Im not sure gun reliability/jamming should be modeled, pretty much for the same reason as we dont have a engine reliability model. Howerever we should accuratly model performance limitations of particular guns. If sustained firing wore out barrel immediatly then we should have that for the high velocity/ high rof guns that faced that issue in RL. I still dont understand why hispanos kill tanks in 1 or 2 passes, Thyhoons did afterall carry rockets for that job. And what bout the 40mm Hurricanes? This is simply wierd, unless of course somebody provides evidence for it. HTC where are you guys?

thanks GRUNHERZ

[GRUNHERZ]

How bout this for you guys, does anybody want to see a film of me getting hit by Hispano fire from 900+ yards. Where the guy fired straight up against the full force of gravity?