Will the USA green up its act?

[moot]

Slowly but surely gaining the hearts and minds of his opposition.

[Jackal1]

Hmmmmmm..... a pause in the fight for the just.
He must be on the phone with Skylilter working out the plans for the crusade.

[Rotax447]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
I would just like to point out that building a lens / serran wrapping the earth wouldn't work.  There are constant meteors ranging from microscopic up passing through the earth's atmosphere.

Most are burned up by friction.


But this lens of yours wouldn't be able to stand up to the meteors.  

One decent size one and you'd spiderweb the thing.

Good point, and that is why you would not place a very large lens in near earth orbit.  It would be placed at Lagrange 1, and out there in deep space, there is really nothing but, space.

In any case it can't crack.  It is beyond our technology to manufacture a rigid lens of this size, and even if we could, it would offer no advantage over using a flexible substance.

BTW, this lens is not my idea.  I only have a BS in physics.  For the really good ideas in physics, you need a PhD.

If you want more information, contact Dr. Gregory Benford ... http://www.ps.uci.edu/physics/benford.html

I am sure he would be interested in hearing your thoughts, ideas, and any constructive criticism you may have:aok

[Rotax447]

Originally posted by sling322
Naw....we would send Bruce Willis and Ben Affleck and a band of roguish space cowboys up there to patrol and blow up any asteroids heading toward the lens.

Hey Sling, could you save a seat for Beetle?  He is our resident expert in orbital Saran Wrap repair and construction

[Rotax447]

BTW, does anyone remember the original point of this thread?

Oh yes, cutting US energy consumption ... and what was that final number?

[NUKE]

I think that all of the countries that each produce at least 35% of the world's GWP (gross world procuct) should have a meeting on global warming.

[-dead-]

Originally posted by Simaril
I guess i'm missing your point, or you're missing mine.

I'm thinking that energy is used in producing things, so more energy would naturally be used by the US if it produced more. The simplist way to take production into account seems to be the ratio.

I suspect that the assumptions of GreenThink almost require the US to be demonized... and having to allow for the fact that the US is the greatest contributor to the world economy may be a little threatening to common EU wisdom.....

But I might be wrong. How exactly is is decoy, though, otherwise?

GDP is not a measure of goods produced: qv Wal-Mart - they don't produce goods, they resell them (a lot of the goods are produced in South America, Bangladesh, China). Yet their total goes toward the US GDP. Citigroup are a bank - goods produced? None. Yet they account for a chunk of the US GDP too.

I own tons of stuff made in China, Singapore, Taiwan, Malaysia  heck even stuff made in Europe (and some of the Asian stuff even has US brand names on it).
Casting my eye over all the stuff I own, I have a couple of books, and a couple of CDs & DVDs actually claiming to be made in the US (a lot of US discs are made in Canada it seems). I have lots of software made in the US - but nothing much physical. And I wonder whether the CD/DVDs the software and movies are on and the packs they're in were really made in the US. Even the coca-cola on sale here is made in Hong Kong (I wonder if those profits count towards the US GDP). I also have a GE microwave (a credit card freebie) which may or may not be US made. The digital clock gains about 10 minutes a week, so maybe it is US made.

Surely a third of my stuff should be from the US, if GDP were a measure of goods produced... especially as Hong Kong is a net importer from the US.

Looking at the US import /export balance, the US imports almost twice what it exports. Which is odd: why would 5% of the world's population producing 30% of all the world's goods need to import almost twice as much, in cash terms as they exported? Why would China with a measly 3.7% of the world's GDP have just surpassed the US to become world leader in information and communications technology goods exports?

GDP is no measure the amount of goods produced at all, just the amount of money. Which may be why it always uses money as the unit.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Holden McGroin
8 paragraphs, 683 words is a wall of text....  check



4 paragraphs, 330 words is not a wall of text....  check

Somewhere between these two parameters lies the edge.

The keyword is "proportion" My 4 paragraphs, 330 words was in reply to Jack-all's 227 words spanning two separate posts. Rotax's 8 paragraphs, 683 words was in response to a silly grin!

Beetle, some day off in the future as the earth's fuel runs dry, do you think it will have made a difference that you paid high taxes and drove a turbo diesel?

Yes, it will have made a difference. By the time I'm ready to quit driving I'll have saved around �45,000 in road fuel costs at current prices, and that's a lot of fuel - and money - not to mention lower capital costs and lower insurance costs than if I'd carried on driving the sort of cars I had up until 2003. Obviously ONE person changing their habits is not going to make a whole lot of difference, the point being that the trend, being driven by higher fuel prices and vast improvements in fuel efficient engines, has been adopted by millions. As for the tax structure, Britain has it wrong. Countries like Austria and Italy have it right, with 60% of cars having fuel efficient TDi engines.

As for what I do personally - I don't run the heat all night - I'd get too hot! Road fuel I've talked about, and sometime in the near future I'll be replacing my heating boiler and getting the new style "condensing boiler". (The old type emits a lot of CO2 and water vapour) The condensing boilers work as their name suggests by condensing the water vapour. I believe  that this exhaust is goes into the ground but don't have exact details today. In Britain as of next year, all new heating boilers must be condensing boilers.

On a much larger scale, the same principle is to be applied to the next generation of fossil fuel burning power stations. Delegates from 180 countries met in Montreal last week to discuss climate change, where technology for the new type of power station was introduced. Here is a diagram showing how it works.



I've reproduced the newspaper article below, with some key sections in red. Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/12/08/wenviro08.xml

Fossil fuels will still be generating most global electricity at the end of this century, but new technology will be pumping the carbon emissions underground, an energy expert forecast yesterday.

Mark Jaccard told the climate change conference of 180 countries in Montreal that the cost of new clean coal power stations was likely to be roughly the same as nuclear or renewable energy, but more publicly acceptable.
Carbon capture

Britain has launched an energy review that will examine such carbon capture, and Gordon Brown has announced a partnership with Norway to look into pumping carbon dioxide from power stations into North Sea oil wells.

However, the United Nations intergovernmental panel on climate change (IPCC), which has released a report on carbon capture and storage, says the new technology is expensive and will never be taken up using voluntary measures alone - as Washington has advocated in talks on global warming.

Prof Jaccard told The Daily Telegraph: "If humanity is serious about huge carbon emission cuts this century, zero-emission fossil fuels will dominate nuclear, renewables and energy efficiency."

He has worked out that Britain would need not only to replace its existing nuclear power stations but to double their number if it were to generate enough electricity and to fuel its transport - whether by charging electric cars or by making hydrogen or biofuels - by nuclear means alone.

He said: "It is one thing to build a nuclear power plant on an existing site, but imagine building 15 new ones."

In his book, Sustainable Fossil Fuels - the Unusual Suspect in the Quest for Clean and Enduring Energy, Prof Jaccard takes into account the risks to nuclear power plants from terrorism before concluding that 60 per cent of the world's power will still come from fossil fuels at the end of the 21st century, compared with 85 per cent today.

The IPCC, the world's leading body on climate change research, says government intervention in the market would be a vital factor.

Bert Metz, the Dutch co-chairman of the IPCC's working group on mitigation, said carbon-capture technology would not come into widespread use without a trading system that placed value on the saved carbon - such as the Kyoto treaty set up - or other forms of government regulation that President George W Bush has rejected as damaging to the US economy.

"Without clear incentives, there will not be an application of this technology," said Dr Metz.

Clean coal technologies are already viable in Norway because the oil and gas industries pay a carbon tax.

The IPCC report says the most developed way of burying carbon dioxide is in the geological strata where the fossil fuels are found.

The past year has been the costliest ever for weather-related natural disasters, the insurance industry told the conference yesterday.


Preliminary estimates by the Munich Re Foundation put economic losses in 2005 at more than $200 billion (�115 billion) with insured losses at more than $70 billion. Until now, 2004 had been considered the most costly year with respective figures of $145 billion and $45 billion.

This year's figures were pushed up by the highest number of hurricanes or storms since records began in 1850, and the strongest hurricane recorded. Insurers say they are part of a trend linked to climate change as a result of human-made emissions.

Indeed... or do the ostriches amongst us deny that Katrina ever happened? Is it "a normal part of the cycle" for entire cities to get wiped out?

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by beet1e

As for what I do personally - I don't run the heat all night - I'd get too hot! Road fuel I've talked about, and sometime in the near future I'll be replacing my heating boiler and getting the new style "condensing boiler". (The old type emits a lot of CO2 and water vapour) The condensing boilers work as their name suggests by condensing the water vapour. I believe  that this exhaust is goes into the ground but don't have exact details today. In Britain as of next year, all new heating boilers must be condensing boilers.
 

Hmmmm..... the question wasn`t what you didn`t do, but what do you do, personaly in this noble fight to stop global warming.
Still, you have me a touch curious here on the "I`d get to hot" statement. You don`t have a thermostat or what? Man, you really should check these things out. why, it`s all the latest rage and we have been using them for.........well as long as I can remember.  

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by Rotax447
Hey Sling, could you save a seat for Beetle?  He is our resident expert in orbital Saran Wrap repair and construction

Too hilarious!
The only problem is, if that flight ended up for it`s passengers like the one in the flick, then the BBS would be much less comical and entertaining.

[Rotax447]

Originally posted by beet1e
The keyword is "proportion" My 4 paragraphs, 330 words was in reply to Jack-all's 227 words spanning two separate posts. Rotax's 8 paragraphs, 683 words was in response to a silly grin!

[/b]

No, it was in response to your silly political agenda to cut the US GDP.  I never expected you to understand and you sure did not disappoint me.

US $7,327
Japan $14,098
Germany $12,379
UK $14,452
France $19,954

[/b]

Beetle, you love to quote these figures as gospel.  Prima facie it seems the US has only half the efficiency of our Euro cousins.  Can you think of anything that the US produces, vis-a-vis say France, that consumes a lot of energy in the production cycle?

[lazs2]

food.

useless, energy sucking  food.

lazs

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Jackal1
Hmmmm..... the question wasn`t what you didn`t do, but what do you do, personaly in this noble fight to stop global warming.
Still, you have me a touch curious here on the "I`d get to hot" statement. You don`t have a thermostat or what? Man, you really should check these things out. why, it`s all the latest rage and we have been using them for.........well as long as I can remember.  

Yes, we have thermostats. I dare say we didn't have them 200 years ago, which explains why you had to ask.

As for what I DO, I thought I told you. In addition to thermostats, we have timers. I have set mine to turn off the system between midnight and 6am.  I like the temperature during the night to sink below the normal daytime temperature. There are also "timerstats" in which a timer can vary the overall temperature at set times. I don't have one of those. It doesn't usually get so cold here that I'd need one.

Beetle, you love to quote these figures as gospel. Prima facie it seems the US has only half the efficiency of our Euro cousins. Can you think of anything that the US produces, vis-a-vis say France, that consumes a lot of energy in the production cycle? -rotax

Those were the figures submitted by Nashwan - ask him. But I would counsel against denouncing any factual data provided by Nashwan - only a very brave man (or a fool) would do that. Besides, -dead- explained it in his excellent post this morning. The resale of your imported goods from places like China contributes to GDP, and given that China is America's third most significant trading partner, that would account for rather a lot of GDP.

Part of the reason for the low GDP value per greenhouse gas output for the US is likely to be air travel within the US...

But I'm going to have to leave it there as I'm spending the weekend at a cute English town called Stow-on-the-Wold! I may be back later tomorrow, at which time I will once again be available for consultation. So till then... toodle-pip.

[indy007]

Originally posted by beet1e
Indeed... or do the ostriches amongst us deny that Katrina ever happened? Is it "a normal part of the cycle" for entire cities to get wiped out?

Athens, 430 B.C.: Typhus epidemic
Pompei, 79: Volcanic eruption
Antioch, Syria, 526: Earthquake (250,000 dead)
Costantinopole, 542: Bubonic plague
Beirut, Lebanon, 551: earthquake and tsunami (tens of thousands dead)
Japan, 1181: famine (100,000 dead)
Holland, 1228: sea flood (100,000 dead)
Chihli, China, 1290: Earthquake (100,000 dead)
Europe and Asia, 1346-52: Bubonic plague or "black death" (one third of the European population dead plus millions in Asia and North Africa for a total of 25 million)
Shensi, China, 1556: earthquake (800,000 dead)
Napoli, Italy, 1631: Mt Vesuvius erupts (3,000 dead)
Havana, 1648: Yellow fever epidemic
Sevilla, Spain, 1649: Plague (80,000 dead)
Turkey, 1668: earthquake (8,000 dead)
Hokkaido, 1730: Earthquake (140,000 dead)
Lisbon, 1755: earthquake and tsunami (30,000 dead)
Calcutta, 1737: Earthquake (300,000 dead)
Bengal, India, 1769: famine (10 million dead)
India, 1775: Tsunami (60,000 dead)
Northamerica, 1775-82: Smallpox (130,000 dead)
Iran, 1780: earthquake (200,000 dead)
Caribbeans, 1780: Hurricane (22,000 dead)
Philadelphia, 1793: Yellow fever epidemic (5,000 dead)
Sumbawa, Indonesia, 1815: Mt Tambora erupts (90,000 dead)
Japan, 1826: Tsunami (27,000 dead)
Cairo, 1831: Cholera epidemic, which spreads to London
London and Paris, 1832: Cholera epidemic (25,000 dead)
Ireland, 1845: famine (one million dead)
Mapoli, Italy, 1857: earthquake (11,000 dead)
India, 1864: Cyclone (70,000 dead)
France, 1870-71: Smallpox (500,000 dead)
Bangladesh, 1876: Cyclone (200,000 dead)
China, 1876-78: Drought (9 million dead)
China, 1881: Typhoon (300,000 dead)
Indonesia, 1883: Tsunami (36,000 dead)
Huayan Kou, China, 1887: Yang-tse Kiang flooding (one million dead)
Mino-owari, Japan, 1891: earthquake (7,000 dead)
Sanriku, Japan, 1896: Tsunami (27,000 dead)
India, 1897: earthquake (1,500 dead)
Galveston, 1900: Hurricane (8,000 dead)
Martinique, 1902: Volcano (38,000 dead)
San Francisco, 1906: earthquake and fire (3,000 dead)
Colombia, 1906: earthquake (1,000 dead)
Chile, 1906: earthquake (20,000 dead)
China, 1907: famine (20 million dead)
Messina, Italy, 1908: 7.5 earthquake (70,000 dead)
Mexico City, 1911: earthquake
Worldwide, 1918: Influenza pandemic (25-100 million dead)
Gansu, China, 1920: 8.6 earthquake (200,000 dead)
Ukraine, 1921: Famine (5 million dead)
Yokohama, Japan, 1923: 8.3 earthquake (143,000 dead)
Nanshan, China, 1927: 8.3 earthquake (200,000 dead)
China, 1928: Famine (3 million dead)
Florida, USA, 1928: Hurricane (1800 dead)
China, 1931: Flooding (3.7 million dead)
Ukraine and Russia, 1932: Famine (5 million dead)
Gansu, China, 1932: 7.6 earthquake (70,000 dead)
Sanriku, Japan, 1933: 8.4 earthquake (3,000 dead)
Bihar, India, 1934: 8.1 earthquake (10,700 dead)
Quetta, Pakistan, 1935: 7.5 earthquake (60,000 dead)
China, 1936: Famine (5 million dead)
New York, USA, 1938: Rains (600 dead)
Erzincan, Turkey, 1939: 7.8 earthquake (33,000 dead)
China, 1941: Famine (3 million dead)
Bengal, India, 1943: famine (3.5 million dead)
Tonankai, Japan, 1944: 8.1 earthquake (1,200 dead)
Nankaido, Japan, 1946: earthquake (1,330 dead)
Ashgabat, Turkmenistan, 1948: earthquake (100,000 dead)
Assam, India, 1950: earthquake (1,526 dead)
Holland, 1953: Sea flood (1,794 dead)
Iran, 1953: Rain flood (10,000 dead)
Louisiana, USA, 1957: Hurricane (400 dead)
Worldwide, 1957: Influenza pandemic (about four million dead)
Japan, 1958: Typhoon (5,000 dead)
China, 1958-61: Famine (38 million dead)
Morocco, 1960: earthquake (10,000 dead)
Chile, 1960: 9.5 earthquake (5,700 dead)
Mt Huascaran, Peru, 1962: Volcano eruption (3,000)
India, 1965: Famine (1.5 million dead)
Worldwide, 1968: Influenza pandemic (about 750,000 dead)
China, 1969: Famine (20 million dead)
North Peru, 1970: 7.8 earthquake (66,000 dead)
Bangladesh, 1970: Sea flood (200-500,000 dead)
Vietnam, 1971: Red River flood (100,000 dead)
Nicaragua, 1972: earthquake flood (10,000 dead)
Bangladesh, 1974: floods (28,000 dead)
Ethiopia, 1974: famine (200,000 dead)
Haicheng, China, 1975: 7.0 earthquake (10,000 dead)
Tangshan, China, 1976: 8.0 earthquake (750,000 dead)
Guatemala, 1976: earthquake (23,000 dead)
Andhra Pradesh, India, 1977: cyclone (10,000 dead)
Caribbeans, 1979: Hurricane (2,000 dead)
Mexico, 1982: volcanic eruption (1,800 dead)
Yemen, 1982: earthquake (3,000 dead)
Bhopal, India, 1984: Chemical pollution (3,800 dead)
Ethiopia, 1984: Famine (900,000 dead)
Ciudad de Mexico, 1985: 8.1 earthquake (9,500 dead)
Colombia, 1985: Volcano (25,000 dead)
Armenia, 1988: earthquake (55,000 dead)
Colombia, 1985: eruption of Nevado del Ruiz (23,000 dead)
Bangladesh, 1988: Monsoon flood (1,300 dead)
Gilan and Zanjan, Iran, 1990: 7.7 earthquake (35,000 dead)
Bangladesh, 1991: tsunami (138,000 dead)
Latur, India, 1993: earthquake (22,000 dead)
Kobe, Japan, 1995: earthquake (5,500 dead)
Niger, 1995: meningitis epidemic (3,000 dead)
Chicago, USA, 1995: heatwave (739 dead)
North Korea, 1995-98: Famine and floods (3.5 million dead)
West Africa, 1996: meningitis outbreak (25,000 dead)
Tashkent, Uzbekistan, 1996: earthquake (??,000 dead)
Papua New Guinea, 1998: Tsunami (2,200 dead)
Yangtze Kiang, China, 1998: flooding (3,600 dead)
Central America, 1998: Hurricane Mitch and floods (12,000 dead)
Afghanistan, 1998: Earthquakes (10,000 dead)
Colombia, 1999: earthquake (1,185 dead)
Izmit, Turkey, 1999: earthquake (17,000 dead)
Taiwan, 1999: 7.6 earthquake (2,400 dead)
Orissa, India, 1999: Cyclone (7,600 dead)
Venezuela, 1999: Floods (20,000 dead)
Gujarat, India, 2001: earthquake (20,000 dead)
El Salvador, 2001: earthquake (850 dead)
Afghanistan, 2002: earthquake (2,500 dead)
Algeria, 2003: earthquake (2,266 dead)
Asia, 2003: SARS (744 dead, mostly in China)
Andhra Pradesh, India, 2003: Heat wave (1,300 dead)
France, Spain and Italy, 2003: Heat wave (50,000 dead)
Bam, Iran, 2003: earthquake (26,300 dead)
Al-Hoceima, Morocco, 2004: earthquake (571 dead)
Haiti and Dominican Republic, 2004: rains (2,400 dead)
Philippines, 2004: typhoon (1,000 dead)
China, 2004: floods (1,300 dead)
Southeast Asia, 2004: tsunamis caused by 9.0 earthquake (111,000 dead in Indonesia, 31,000 in Sri Lanka, 10,700 in India, 5,400 in Thailand, 68 in Malaysia, 82 in the Maldives, 300 in Myanmar and 150 in Somalia, including 1,500 Scandinavian tourists, and dozens of Germans, Italians, Dutch, etc)
Zarand, Iran, 2005: earthquake (500 dead)
Nias, Indonesia, 2005: 8.7 earthquake (1000 dead)
Mumbai, India, 2005: monsoon (1,000 dead)
China, 2005: floods (567 dead)
Louisiana and Mississippi, USA, 2005: hurricane (1,069 dead)
Niger, 2005: famine (10,000? dead)
Kashmir, 2005: earthquake (80,500 dead, of which 79,000 in Pakistan and 1,350 in India)
Central America, 2005: floods (1,400 dead, of which 1,200 in Guatemala)



really, katrina was just a drop in the bucket. Hell, in just Haiti, Port-au-Prince was leveled in 1751, 1760, 1770, & 1784. There's dozens (if not hundreds) more from prior to the invention of electricity that aren't even on the list. Out of 138 on that list, 57 alone are earthquakes... only 7 are hurricanes.

[Rotax447]

Originally posted by lazs2
food.

useless, energy sucking  food.

lazs

You cheated Laz ... You read Beetles bumper sticker ... STARVE A CHILD AND SAVE A PENGUIN