could USSR have been saved? (mature audiences only)

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Hornet33
No I'm not kidding. Please name one. Better yet answer me this. How many countries did the USSR take over after WWII? Pretty much all of Eastern Europe huh? Tried to take Germany untill the U.S. with the help of some of our friends decided that the USSR had taken enough and stopped them. Then the USSR decided to build a wall and would shoot anyone that tried to leave. But yeah your right those people had all the same freedoms and rights that I have, and the government wasn't impossing it's will on the people.

If the U.S. had been like the USSR we would own France, Italy, Germany, Libya, Tunisia, Spain, Belgeium, Holland, Japan, and whole host of other nations that we "captured" in WWII. However we did not capture them we liberated them and let the people of those countries elect their own leaders and choose their own path. That didn't happen in the USSR as was seen all over the world in Poland when Moscow sent in the Red Army to restore control because the Polish people decided that the Government in Moscow sucked and they didn't want to be a part of it anymore. But once again the government wasn't imposing it's will on the Polish people, they really invited the Red Army into their country to kill people.

1) US still de-facto occupies half of Europe, while USSR withdrew it's troops. Countries of people's democracy never were a part of the Union.

2) You didn't let anyone elect what they wanted, they elected what you wanted instead. Example: elections in Italy without communists. So-called "democracy" doesn't have anything common with a freedom of choice.

3) West is responsible for the situation in Europe after the War. Soviet side only reacted on their hostile actions. Check the dates.

4) What did you say about Poland? Please, I want details, I am really curious where did you get such information. It seems to me that you said total nonsence, but I am not sure that I understood what you wrote, can you please repeat it in other words?

I only can recommend you to find some books with some text apart from pictures and try to read them. But you are quite funny this way Didn't they tell you that Russian Bolsheviks crucified Christ?

[Boroda]

It's amazing. I just understood that Hornet33 thinks that Eastern-European countries were a part of USSR. Kinda difficult to argue

I am sure - people will never stop surprising me.

[storch]

tell me about Hungary in 1956

[Chairboy]

The USSR was just visiting for coffee!  They were invited!

[Skilless]

Originally posted by Boroda
It's amazing. I just understood that Hornet33 thinks that Eastern-European countries were a part of USSR. Kinda difficult to argue

I am sure - people will never stop surprising me.

The fact is Boroda, that people on both sides of the curtain were fed a lot of propaganda to demonize the opposition and justify the the Cold War.  Being American I have a tendency to believe the Soviets were just a little bit more nasty than us.  Just curious, do you have the Russian equivelant of this picture?-

[Russian]

Originally posted by Hornet33
Never said Russia = Stalin. The rights I mentioned the Russian people have now but they did not have them under the USSR which I belive was the point of this thread.

And I say they had those rights, and more more like free healthcare, free education etc.
[/b]

Name me 1 country that the U.S. has taken over by force, and then occupied, and then made a part of our country. Answer 0. You can't say the same thing about the USSR can you? I don't see the U.S. imposing our belives on anyone.

Apparently you are unaware of your own history. Why don’t you look up  “Manifest Destiny”.

You never asked. Even if you did I can't speak for what politicians in this country think. I can only speak about what I think.

This is rephrase of the question number 3 I asked earlier.

All in all nice troll Russian, but I'm going to spit this hook back in the water. [/B]

Troll? So when I say opposite of what TV tells you, I’m a troll now? …interesting ideology.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Chairboy
The USSR was just visiting for coffee!  They were invited!

You are partially true. We could just stop at the Soviet border, only annexing East Prussia, and let poor Poland free from Soviet "occupation", they were so happy under Hitler! Seriously, instead of "occupation" we could save several million lives of Soviet soldiers.

I am drinking beer and listening to Gong, please forgive my sarcasm. I just can't resist.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by storch
tell me about Hungary in 1956

Our ally has a CIA-sponsored rebellion and mob starts to hang our supporters on lamp posts. Can I remind you of what USA usually does under such circumstances?

[Dowding]

Boroda, it all well and good to liberate a country from Nazi occupation. To then deny those people democratic rights is to occupy that country again.

Tell me, why do you think the Berlin wall was built? To keep Western Europeans from flooding the Communist utopia in the East? And why were 152 East Berliners shot trying to get to the West between 1961 and 1989?

And while we're at it, how do you explain the 1953 massacre of East Berlin construction workers who had the cheek to demand democratic freedoms?

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Skilless
The fact is Boroda, that people on both sides of the curtain were fed a lot of propaganda to demonize the opposition and justify the the Cold War.  Being American I have a tendency to believe the Soviets were just a little bit more nasty than us.  

Agreed 100%.

I am far from believing what Soviet propaganda said about US (see paragraph about hanging black people). I tried to develop my own opinion on the problem. Both sides were equally bad, the problem was that we couldn't afford things that "blue" side did, the country was in ruins after the War, and the main problem was to rebuilt it, at the same time spending huge effort on making a Bomb to survive as a nation. Another problem was that Soviet propaganda machine was ineffective compared to Western: look, some people here prefer to be happy with their so-called "freedoms" while they can't afford to rent a room without a room-mate and have to pay for their cars  for several years or go to Iraq so Army will pay for third-grade college education if they'll survive.

Obvious Soviet "nastyness", that I can't deny, was because we are not as rich as our opponents, we had our country completly destroyed two times in the last 100 years, while America usually profits on wars.

As for the picture: the reason for closing the borders was obvious, USSR spent huge funds on raising a citizen and giving him education, and couldn't afford to waste it for some imaginary "freedoms". We were in hostile environment, surrounded by enemies who could strike us without hesitation if only they could have 50% probability of victory.

You have to understand that most of the things in USSR before that idiot Gorbachev were practical. I mean - there was no special "evilness", only measuring pros and cons. Without such approach USSR simply couldn't withstand 50 years of competition with world's richest country.

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by Boroda
Our ally has a CIA-sponsored rebellion and mob starts to hang our supporters on lamp posts. Can I remind you of what USA usually does under such circumstances?

At 5:20 a.m., Hungarian Prime Minister Imre Nagy announced the invasion to the nation in a grim, 35-second broadcast, declaring: "Our troops are fighting. The Government is in its place." However, within hours Nagy himself would seek asylum at the Yugoslav Embassy in Budapest while his former colleague and imminent replacement, János Kádár, who had been flown secretly from Moscow to the city of Szolnok, 60 miles southeast of the capital, prepared to take power with Moscow's backing.

On November 22, after receiving assurances of safe passage from Kádár and the Soviets, Nagy finally agreed to leave the Yugoslav Embassy. But he was immediately arrested by Soviet security officers and flown to a secret location in Romania. By then, the fighting had mostly ended, the Hungarian resistance had essentially been destroyed, and Kádár was entering the next phase of his strategy to neutralize dissent for the long term.

[Sarcasm]Wow... the CIA installed a mole who achieved the office of Hungarian Prime Minister.  That is the first time I have ever heard the CIA being so successful.[/Sarcasm]

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Dowding
Boroda, it all well and good to liberate a country from Nazi occupation. To then deny those people democratic rights is to occupy that country again.

Didn't "blue" side do the same thing? Don't tell me about "democracy", in Western version it's only a way to sell Coke and chewing-gum.

Originally posted by Dowding
Tell me, why do you think the Berlin wall was built? To keep Western Europeans from flooding the Communist utopia in the East? And why were 152 East Berliners shot trying to get to the West between 1961 and 1989?

I answered about keeping borders closed in previous post. I only can add that an "emigration" problem, raised by the West, was 100% artificial propaganda issue. Look, now it's impossible for anyone living in "democratic" post-USSR country to get a working visa in the West: they have enough competition on job market to allow anyone with better skills in to work for lower wages. It's pretty simple if you'll try to think about it.

Originally posted by Dowding
And while we're at it, how do you explain the 1953 massacre of East Berlin construction workers who had the cheek to demand democratic freedoms?

Sorry, I don't know anything about it. I am too busy explaining obvious facts about Katyn' and other crimes of Evil Communist Regime (tm)

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Boroda
As for the picture: the reason for closing the borders was obvious, USSR spent huge funds on raising a citizen and giving him education, and couldn't afford to waste it for some imaginary "freedoms". We were in hostile environment, surrounded by enemies who could strike us without hesitation if only they could have 50% probability of victory.

The Americans spent millions of dollars in western Europe with the Marshall plan but I did not see a 'Western' wall being constructed to keep western Europians from fleeing to the East.

You would not have been in a hostile environment if you had just liberated the country and then returned home.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Holden McGroin
[Sarcasm]Wow... the CIA installed a mole who achieved the office of Hungarian Prime Minister.  That is the first time I have ever heard the CIA being so successful.[/Sarcasm]

From an obviously biased Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagy%2C_Imre

He became Prime Minister again during the brief anti-Soviet revolution in 1956, through popular support, replacing the hardliner Andras Hegeduso But was forced to work with hardliner Ernő Gerő who remained the First Party Secretary.

On 1 November he appealed to the West for help for Hungary.

Check your sources, please, before you post.

Next, please.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
The Americans spent millions of dollars in western Europe with the Marshall plan but I did not see a 'Western' wall being constructed to keep western Europians from fleeing to the East.

LOL Marshall plan! Just an investment with huge profit.

Originally posted by MiloMorai
You would not have been in a hostile environment if you had just liberated the country and then returned home.

We could simply have our cities inside enemy strategic bombers range. See Drop Shot plan.

Next, please.