Author Topic: Kabul is bombed.  (Read 4719 times)

Offline Hangtime

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Kabul is bombed.
« Reply #75 on: October 08, 2001, 05:22:00 PM »
Yup... Agreed. Our repective media(s) have a favored slant. And we are products of our societies, and I am in fact a prodigy of cold war propaganda.

And a "Terrorist Towel Head" is an exceptionally accurate verbal picture of bin Laden. (sorry Vipe, I call 'em as I see 'em)

Despite all that I'm certainly NOT 'anti-russian'... I am cerainly anti-Soviet Union. That 'nation' is now defunct.

Borodas uninformed mind picture of B52's carpet bombing Kabuls civilian population rattled my ire, Dingers cheap shots just ticked me off even more.

Commentary elewhere in the thread seems to indicate we should not believe anything anybody says about a damned thing, all media lies, all media is slanted all media is wrong because.. 'well; because it's wrong to bomb anybody for any reason' kinda paints a picture of moral recticitude I'm flat unable to comprehend.

Folks, nothin would make me happier than gettin back to pickin on the tree-huggers and n1k drivers and guys that take a game or themselves to damn seriously... but that ain't the world anymore.

The world changed on sept 11th, and we went to war.

Untill that war is won, and terrorisim as an instument of vengance and political gain is extinguised, commentary that puts our troops or our current mission in the same 'baby killer' bag as Vietnam, Dresden, or Nagasaki smacks of treason to me.

Right now, this very minute; our troops are flying over and walkin through the most dangerous forbidding land on this planet. They need our unswerving support and from those of us that can... our prayers.

Not second guessing ridicule from the fediddlein 2nd or third world peanut galleries, and for sure not from the folks at home.

If this turns into a Civilization war, then so be it. We will win that one too.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Hangtime

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Kabul is bombed.
« Reply #76 on: October 08, 2001, 05:56:00 PM »
Hey..  Ant..

.. is that the General Foods flag I saw on the rubble over the WTC? Were those WorldCom firefighters that died savin the worker bees? Is that the Microsoft flag on the tail of the FA/18 doin Wild Weasel work?? Is it a citizen of Kodak held in a Taliban jail for distributing food and bible literature?

World Economy.. maybe in another 100 years corporations will stand in for Nations. Right now, they don't. The folks that got hit on Sept 11th were in America. Most who died were AMERICANS. And the overwhelming majority of the people who have their tulips out over the edge right now are AMERICANS, with the valued help and assistance of our allies.

I object to the notion that my Nation is a just a diddlyin oatmeal company. (and I suspect the guys crawlin thru the bushes lookin for bin Laden would too)
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Vulcan

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Kabul is bombed.
« Reply #77 on: October 08, 2001, 06:16:00 PM »
Interesting thread. Boroda u are so full of toejam, 150000 civilians killed in Iraq? Only if the Republican Guard handed in their resignations as they heard the B52s coming over. I've never seen anyone hearing slagging off the russians ops in Chechnia (sp?) like you've just slagged off the USA.

Sk Viper, the USA has had plenty of other nations help it on many occasions. Just look at the current events, the poms, the frogs, the aussies, even us Kiwis have offered up our SAS and it looks like they're going. Or how about WW2? The Japanese did attack America you know? In Pacific ops the Aussies and Kiwis housed US forces, fed em, even let them have a crack at the sheep! Our kiwi hog squadrons were reknowned for their CAS abilities, many stories have been written about the kiwi squads getting many a marine landing out of the toejam. We don't have much to offer, but what we do offer is the best of class (same goes for the Aussies... can't believe I'm saying something good about them) and we always give it 200%.

And we also supply/support two Echelon stations in NZ. Even though it doesn't exist  ;)

Don't let some lone screwed up Russian fog the support the rest of world is giving, we are supporting you every step of the way.

Offline Red Ant

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Kabul is bombed.
« Reply #78 on: October 08, 2001, 06:25:00 PM »
Hangtime, you can object all you want, but I also call 'em as I see em.   :)

If you look at my post you will see that I am COMPLETELY in support of this war - I simply stated what are in my opinion the larger reasons for it.

[ 10-08-2001: Message edited by: Red Ant ]

Offline Creamo

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Kabul is bombed.
« Reply #79 on: October 08, 2001, 06:25:00 PM »
Nice thread.

I've learned all my social skills from the AH community, lol.

(Hangtime, I want you to immediatley go visit the Moonlight Bunny ranch, Bob Marley, and then the local MNF bar. Your angry.  :) )

Offline Dinger

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Kabul is bombed.
« Reply #80 on: October 08, 2001, 07:04:00 PM »
Alright Hangtime, in all seriousness:
This isn't merely about the US, and this isn't a war we're gonna win on our own.  The WTC didn't represent just the US, it represented a global economy.  This may have been an attack on US soil, but for citizens of many countries it was the worst terrorist attack against their citizens ever.  The attack was planned and acted out by a group that operated from several countries, and a group that sees the whole Western World, with the US at the top of the list, as its enemy.  Saying it's against the US misses the point.

Now, Red Ant goes on a bit into Global Market Capitalism, and that's largely because the new world order propagated by western countries is indeed a capitalistic one.  Sure our military and civil services are still state owned, but as any good Republican will tell you, it is more consistent with our state economic doctrine to privatize them too.

There is nothing treasonous in questioning what your country is doing, particularly militarily.  Quite the contrary, we like to have civilian control of the military, and the good folks in our military seem to think that's a damn good idea.  Many cultures around the world believe that questioning one's purpose, and at times admitting mitakes shows weakness.  For me, this is one of our strengths.

There is a distinction between critically evaluating sources of information, such as mass media, and discarding it wholesale as a "pack of lies".

There is no such thing as a completely clean war.  Innocent people are gonna die, and hell, some of those will be wearing the bad guys' uniforms.  If you think this can be accomplished without anybody dying, you've been watching too much A-Team.

As I stated above, there is a distinction between intentionally targeting civilian populations and trying to minimize civilian casualties.  Of course, such a distinction becomes tricky when a nation declares every man, womna and child to be part of a militia called to defend it.  

None of these discussions have much to do with the guys in the trenches, giving and taking bullets.  Some folks who don't give a damn about them are in favor of the US military killing every man, woman and child, Christian, Muslim and Jew in the Middle East.  Some who give their full support to the guys actually fighting this war frankly don't want to see this war happen.

90 percent of Tomahawks used int he Gulf War did fail to hit their targets and most of them didn't detonate at all.

The US has in the past used the heroin trade against its own citizens as a bargaining chip in otherwise noble wars.  We've probably done the same for cocaine, but I'm not entirely sure (uhh... Noriega?).

Offline easymo

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Kabul is bombed.
« Reply #81 on: October 08, 2001, 08:32:00 PM »
At this point, most Americans have zero interest in what motivates some goat herder living in Letsbombaslob. Our countrymen have been murdered. Not killed on the field of battle.  Today we gave a list of country's, suspected of harboring terrorist, to the U. N. We have just begun killing people.  We will be at it a while.  When we are through.  We can all set down and count our sins.

Offline Creamo

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Kabul is bombed.
« Reply #82 on: October 08, 2001, 10:43:00 PM »
Well, this progressed well.

I see a fat dance coming....

Offline Hangtime

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Kabul is bombed.
« Reply #83 on: October 08, 2001, 11:23:00 PM »
Quote
This isn't merely about the US, and this isn't a war we're gonna win on our own.  

It is about the US, we are on the TOP of the enemy's list and we may well be forced to bear the brunt of the hard decisions. We will certainly be paying the majority of the bill and with 12 CVBG's we are in a position to insist on having it our way.

 
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Saying it's against the US misses the point.

Riiiiight. The bastards were really after the French Coca Cola distributors based at the WTC.

 
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Sure our military and civil services are still state owned, but as any good Republican will tell you, it is more consistent with our state economic doctrine to privatize them too.
 

Well hell, lets nationalize the terrorists then, and sic 'em on Bill Gates's storm troopers. *sheesh* Methinks you need to hop back into THIS space-time continuim.

 
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There is nothing treasonous in questioning what your country is doing, particularly militarily.  

"TREASON: one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty."

The American Soldiers oath: "I DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR (OR AFFIRM) THAT I WILL SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AGAINST ALL ENEMIES, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC; THAT I WILL BEAR TRUE FAITH AND ALLEGIANCE TO THE SAME; AND THAT I WILL OBEY THE ORDERS OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND THE ORDERS OF THE OFFICERS APPOINTED OVER ME, ACCORDING TO REGULATIONS AND THE UNIFORM CODE OF MILITARY JUSTICE.  SO HELP ME GOD."

The Oath of Citizenship: I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same...


Whelp; there it is. Next??

 
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As I stated above, there is a distinction between intentionally targeting civilian populations and trying to minimize civilian casualties. Of course, such a distinction becomes tricky when a nation declares every man, womna and child to be part of a militia called to defend it.
 

Ahh yesssss... well; seems to me we're doing pretty much the opposite of what the terrorists did. We are targeting carefully Taliban military and government assetts. Unfortunately, somebody forgot to sent the Talibans security service (Al Queida) that playbook. Seems they went for our civilains FIRST. Dummies.. can't those ignorant savages READ? *sheesh*

   
Quote
None of these discussions have much to do with our guys in the trenches, giving and taking bullets.  

It has EVERYTHING to do with those guys. They REALLY don't need space cadet idiots from Mrs Nutcases Political Philosphy Class second guessing their objectives and methods while they hang their tulips way out over the fence for the rest of the free world. Comprende'?

 
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90 percent of Tomahawks used int he Gulf War did fail to hit their targets and most of them didn't detonate at all.

Care to bet your house on that?? Shall we target one on yer toejamter and see if we plaster your livingroom instead? Having had more than a passing aquaintence with that particular weapon system I can comfortably state yer fulla toejam.

 
Quote
The US has in the past used the heroin trade against its own citizens as a bargaining chip in otherwise noble wars. We've probably done the same for cocaine, but I'm not entirely sure (uhh... Noriega?).  

Back to the movies again? Sorry, conspiracy theories, the rum/slave/textile triange, the British Empire and the Opium Trade, Ollie North and Noriega or any other old history ain't got dick to do with the current issue..

OUR CAUSE IS JUST, OUR METHODS ARE APPROPRIATE, AND WE DON'T NEED NO STINKIN amazinhunkS TRYIN TO WEAKEN OUR RESOLVE.

Now please go away. Thanks.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline ispar

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Kabul is bombed.
« Reply #84 on: October 08, 2001, 11:27:00 PM »
Hmmmm. I've been wondering... did Osama bin Laden wake up one morning and say, "I hate freedom! Let's bomb the USA!" Oh, sorry... this must be a conscious and unanimous decision by Islamic fundamentalists that America is evil because we drive fast cars and watch TV. We're the great Satan because of the way we live! That must be it! And now we have been baselessly attacked and must respond! What was it someone said? That we have a right and responsibility to to exact vengeance?

Whoah, hold up! The above, of course, is roadkill. The attacks were initiated against this country as an act of vengeance, not senseless evil. Not to say that they weren't senseless evil, but there was definitely a reason for them. But instead of facing that we Americans have a "great track record" of being amazinhunks in the middle east (not to say that many of the governments and oil producers, etc, in the Middle East are prizes at all) we've decided that the way to deal with this is military strikes. Because that way we don't have to face the fact that we may (gasp!) be doing something wrong!

Of course, striking like this will do no good whatsoever. Then again, neither will not striking. Wonderful job we've done of getting ourselves into this hideous Catch 22 situation here, isn't it? It goes way back, too. I don't think it's worthwhile to respond to the ignorant statements about how the only appropriate response to this is to attack the responsible parties. Of course, given that we are responsible in good part ourselves - hey, it takes two to tango - we might as well start bombing DC as well. It might eliminate the other half of the problem. Then again, given the mostly universal notion among those supporting this war that the US does not need to take responsibility for anything and doesn't need to change, hell, even to consider changing its Middle East foreign policy, I don't see this as too likely.

Now, on to my next target, eh? Collateral damage is a good one. I'll be concise - no deaths are acceptable. Call me weak-hearted if you like, but it won't change anything. It's very easy to say something like, "Well, war is rough, but civilian casualties happen. It's sad, but it's war." I don't understand this. Why is something acceptable on a scale such as this, when on an individual and personal scale it is not? How can death be unacceptable on an individual level, yet not seriously consequencial on a more universal level? We reduce these things to numbers, to "acceptable collateral damage" levels, because that takes the humanity out of it. A death becomes a number. A number doesn't hurt, unless it's a large one. But to those affected by it, it hurts. It hurts, and we know that it does, because pretty much everyone has been touched by death in some way. And because they hurt, and because they know that the hurt is because of someone else, they hate. And then more people will get hurt. The personal is as important on the universal level as anything that starts universally. Ever drop a tiny stone in water? Of course you have. You can see that the ripples spread an amazing distance across the surface of the water.

 But we can take it beyond death, and remove from that level, because then we don't need to really know that we are killing someone. We drop the bomb, and come home. When we return, we add another few tallies to the list. It's not hard, really. They're just marks. Harmless. It's not like we're stacking bodies, putting them in bags, sending them off to their relatives with a little note, "We offer our sincere condolences." And so we can just put marks on paper, say it is sad but unavoidable, and move on. No problem. Not on a personal level, at least. But it does get felt universally.

When we were attacked in NYC, we felt it, because we were all right there. We saw the people jumping out of the windows, and we felt their deaths very keenly. We desire revenge, justice, action. I desire them too, but I remember the footage of terrified people running from the Collapsing WTC towers. It's not too hard to imagine that the people that are running are Afghanis, and that they are running from a missile strike. I see someone jumping from the WTC Tower, and I think, "Dear God, he had a family, and they had him, but now neither has the other." I see footage of people dead, dying, or suffering and I think the same thing. It hurts just as much no matter where they are from, because it is NOT "tragic but necessary," it is tragic, and there is nothing else to it, because tragedy is never necessary or acceptable.

We're stuck now, though. People are going to die, and all we can die is try to get as personal as possible and wait for bombs to stop flying. I certainly hope I can do something to help. I would find it hard to forgive myself if I did nothing.

We just got bitten in the bellybutton by karma, big time. Let's hope that we don't let as much go around this time, because I don't want anything like this to come around, ever again.

Sorry for the long post.

-ispar

Offline Hangtime

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Kabul is bombed.
« Reply #85 on: October 08, 2001, 11:54:00 PM »
Quote
I would find it hard to forgive myself if I did nothing.
 

Join the Navy, become a corpsman, and ask for assignment to a Marine unit. You won't be forced to carry a weapon or kill a single soul. Your mission will be to save lives...

Falling short of that, you can clam up on the pacifist agenda. Your personal beliefs in that regard are understandable but not at all appreciated, particularly to those who have sacrificed and to those who now serve in our stead.

Contribute, or get outta the way. This job needs to be done. Do your part.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline easymo

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Kabul is bombed.
« Reply #86 on: October 08, 2001, 11:55:00 PM »
Ispar.  A plane ticket to Pakistan should be fairly cheap right now.  You could make your way into Afghanistan from there.  You could try to find your way to some taliban leaders.  you could try to talk them into peace. If you are sincere about your beliefs.  This is an obvious course of action.  If you do not take it.  Everything you say is passivest roadkill.

  If I sound flippant.  Let me remind you that I did climb on a plane, and go to a bad naborhood, for what I believed in.   I am quite serious.  Everyone else is playing hard ball.  Grab a glove, or shut up

Offline Nash

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Kabul is bombed.
« Reply #87 on: October 09, 2001, 02:23:00 AM »
Ispar, for all the responsibility you continue to foist on the States for its actions prior to the attack, you personally continue to shirk it in your arguments.

You aren't saying anything as far as I can tell.

1) You have never really defined the US's culpability. Lets hear exactly what you mean by that.

2) You still offer no alternative the US's response.

What are we left with? Nada...

I fully believe people should openly speak their minds on this issue be it pro or against the retaliation... I understand your concern... but man... SAY something.

Offline leonid

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« Reply #88 on: October 09, 2001, 04:54:00 AM »
Has anyone seen that video footage that was confiscated in Europe from a suspected Arabic terrorist.  It showed them first ambushing an Algerian column on the road, then slitting the throats of those they captured.  The next scene was an ambush on Russian troops in Chechnya.  In that ambush a wounded Russian soldier, lying on the ground was machinegunned to death.  I think we in the West got the story in Chechnya all wrong .  You can thank the media for that one too, I guess.
ingame: Raz

Offline Naso

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Kabul is bombed.
« Reply #89 on: October 09, 2001, 05:18:00 AM »
You got it, Leonid, You see the light!!

(holy music in background)  ;)

Never trust propaganda, it's easy to recognize it: when you see white on one side and black on the other, you can bet it's propaganda at work.

The other forms of propaganda are more difficult to discover, but, with some effort...  :)