FoMoCo crash and burn

[Toad]

Originally posted by Skuzzy
EDIT:  Toad, I know you are pro union, but unions, in general, are doing more damage than good to the ability of America to be a manufacturing country with thier current practices.

I've often said the only thing worse than a Union is..... no Union.

I'm not really "pro-Union". It's just that I realize a Union is part of a "check and balance" system that is NECESSARY. You only need look to the pre-Union era to see why. Anyone who claims that couldn't happen here again just doesn't read the news.

No, it's really very simple and has little to do with Union/Non-Union.

There are no more tariffs, no more "protectionist trade laws" for the auto industry (and most others) anymore. Technology transfer, the communications revolution, improvements in shipping have made it possible for manufacturers to place their factories in just about any country on the globe and produce a quality product.

There isn't any argument about this, period. Jetliner parts, autos, steel...whatever... it can be made to the necessary quality in any place the corporation chooses to invest and build a factory.

So it's real, real simple. Where would YOU build your next Ford factory?

In the US where a worker earns ~$28/hour plus maybe another $42 in pension, health and other benefits

OR

In China where a worker costs you $500 per MONTH wages AND benefits versus the ~$4800 per month you pay a US worker in straight salary alone?

The jobs are going boys and they ain't coming back.

Unless, of course, you think your friends and neighbors here in the good 'ole USA should work for say.... $500 a month, wages AND benefits.

And then how will the rest of us do? How many folks making $500/month, wages AND benefits will play AH, Skuzzy? How many folks making $500/month will buy cars? Buy houses? How many folks making $500 a month will spend $100 for full house cable TV?

Global economy dudes. We got free trade, now we get to compete with guys that think $500 a month is living large.

It's easy to see where it leads. And it really has nothing to do with Unions. It has to do with "who will work for the least?" when that question is asked around the globe by a corporation.

It'll take a while but job flight is inevitable.

[Skuzzy]

Oh, I agree the jobs will be fleeting.  Greed from upper management will help to ensure that.  They have no national pride nor could they give a crap about the working man.  But greed from unions is no better.

I also have a strong dislike for unions.  As someone who watched unions destroy my father, simply due to the fact he (nor his employees) wanted to go union, you, nor anyone else, will convince me they are a good thing.

I enjoy the freedom of choice.  If my employer does not treat me right or I do not like the compensation package, then I will go to another company.  In a union, I do not have that choice.  I am forced to work where, when, and how they tell me to.

I do my job, simply due to the fact, I enjoy it.  Take that away from me, and I will be miserable.

You know what a union would do to HTC?  God forbid that to happen.

[Mustaine]

i have to say forst off, i own my 3rd buick. never owned a ford, so i can not comment on them, but on US auto's i have owned a monte carlo, then 3 buicks. i'll break them down:

forgot the monte carlo. first car, 1980 with a 267 V8. beat the $#%^ out of it, and basically killed it myself. it was smashed, broken into, you name it.

1985 buick skyhawk. was my mothers car, got it for HS graduation. it had 39,000 miles on it in 1991. that's 6,000/ year. she only drove it to and from work, until i got my liscense. i'd say i was responsible for at least 9k or those miles. @ 27,000 before i got it, it needed a cam shaft replacement, basically because it never drove more than 3 miles a day. not GM's fault, the engine never got warm enough for the oil to work properly. i drove that car into the ground, 4 accidents, 1 of them "totaling" the car, and finally sold it to a buddy for $400 with 198,000 miles on it. only real problems were an engine mount that stress cracked (by my hard driving probably), a heater core, and damage from my accidents.

1984 buick regal. got this bueaty with 112,000 miles on it, classic GM V6 engine, car was in great shape. never had a major problem with it, never in an accident. one day with about 180,000 miles on it the timing chain went. the car died, and i was set on buying a "new" car. got it fixed for $650 and sold it for $1100.

1995 buick skyhawk. i still own it. 180,000 miles, V6 and i have had almost no problems again. the heater core went once a few years ago, and a coil went bad. i didn't get regular trans. maintenence and had to have it flushed, and the electric window rack froze and broke 2 times (in -10 or lower temps), but thats about it. just a few weeks ago my driver seat just broke something underneath it, but this car has almost 200,000 miles and it 11 years old. with my fat bellybutton on it all that time, i think it has done good.


now to imports. i worked at a honda dealership for quite a while, and though it was a while ago i can tell you, they are WAY more "well built" than any toyota ever has been. honda's are rock solid. they do have a better feel inside than most american cars. it's the little things, like the vent louvers being solid and not breaking, and things like that.

it is too bad buick does not have a car for someone like me anymore (mid 30's, not rich, single guy) because i'd get another buick in a second.

[LePaul]

Just saw this on Yahoo...

"The main US auto union called Ford Motor Co.'s decision to cut tens of thousands of jobs "devastating" and blamed the company management for the failure to protect market share.

Ford announced that it would cut 25,000-30,000 jobs and close 14 assembly plants as part of a restructuring plan to stem massive losses in its North American vehicle operations.

"The restructuring plan announced this morning by Ford is extremely disappointing and devastating news for the many thousands of hard-working men and women who have devoted their working lives to Ford," United Auto Workers president Ron Gettelfinger said in a statement.

"The impacted hourly and salaried workers find themselves facing uncertain futures because of senior management's failure to halt Ford's sliding market share.

"The announcement has further left a cloud hanging over the entire workforce because of pending future announcements of additional facilities to be closed at some point in the future," said the union boss.

He said the cuts and future announcements are being discussed with the second biggest US auto maker and warned: "Certainly, today's announcement will only make the 2007 negotiations all the more difficult and all the more important."

Gettelfinger said that the latest plan, like one in 2002, concentrated on cutting capacity when "the focus should instead be on striving to gain market share in this competitive market by offering consumers innovative and appealing products."

The union said it would seek to strictly enforce job security agreements that exist with Ford.

Savings from job cuts are limited by the auto maker's union contract. Hourly employees who do not take early retirement packages enter a jobs bank retraining program in which they collect full pay and benefits while waiting for a spot to open up on an assembly line.

Canadian Auto Workers president Buzz Hargrove described the cuts as "a shocking, painful blow." One plant in Canada is on the closure list."

Yeah, its all management fault.  Sure.  It couldnt be the incredible hourly wage and benefits these morons get, right?

[Skuzzy]

Between the greed of unions and upper management, companies have no chance.  Being squeezed from the bottom and the top will eventually make the ballon pop.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Skuzzy
Oh, I agree the jobs will be fleeting.  Greed from upper management will help to ensure that.  They have no national pride nor could they give a crap about the working man.  But greed from unions is no better.
 

And there you have it. Greed as a check and balance on....greed. Suprise. That's the "why" of unions in a nutshell.

As I said, the only thing worse than an union is.... no union. I didn't say they were a "good thing". I said they were better than "no-thing". Big difference.

No one forces ANYONE to take a "Union job". Fortunately, in this country, you can choose where to work. Union or no union, the choice is yours. As far as "closed shop"... well, there are other places to work in every case.

I enjoy the freedom of choice. If my employer does not treat me right or I do not like the compensation package, then I will go to another company. In a union, I do not have that choice. I am forced to work where, when, and how they tell me to.

You most certainly DO have a choice to go to another company. No Union can make you work for a particular company. Don't like building cars under a GM/UAW contract? Then go work for Nissan's Smyrna plant; they are non-union. You can go to another company anytime.

[Toad]

Originally posted by LePaul
Yeah, its all management fault.  Sure.  It couldnt be the incredible hourly wage and benefits these morons get, right?

LP, as the world eventually turns, workers in auto plants in the US and Canada will either compete directly and equally with those in China or the jobs will go to ... China.  (And don't suspect for a moment that the Chinese workers won't have their turn in the box. A poorer country will eventually try to beat THEIR low bid as well.)

So what you expect is that "those morons" should work for the same as Chinese autoworkers right? Because THAT is the only way you will stop the transfer of jobs to the lowest cost producer. You have to match cost.

So how will this country and Canada do when autoworkers work for $500/month pay AND benefits? Do you think that might have downward wage pressure on other US and Canadian jobs?

Global workforce, dude. Free trade. We wanted it, we got it. Time to pay the piper.

[Gunthr]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Skuzzy
EDIT: Toad, I know you are pro union, but unions, in general, are doing more damage than good to the ability of America to be a manufacturing country with thier current practices.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I've often said the only thing worse than a Union is..... no Union.

I'm not really "pro-Union". It's just that I realize a Union is part of a "check and balance" system that is NECESSARY. You only need look to the pre-Union era to see why. Anyone who claims that couldn't happen here again just doesn't read the news.

No, it's really very simple and has little to do with Union/Non-Union.

There are no more tariffs, no more "protectionist trade laws" for the auto industry (and most others) anymore. Technology transfer, the communications revolution, improvements in shipping have made it possible for manufacturers to place their factories in just about any country on the globe and produce a quality product.

There isn't any argument about this, period. Jetliner parts, autos, steel...whatever... it can be made to the necessary quality in any place the corporation chooses to invest and build a factory.

So it's real, real simple. Where would YOU build your next Ford factory?

In the US where a worker earns ~$28/hour plus maybe another $42 in pension, health and other benefits

OR

In China where a worker costs you $500 per MONTH wages AND benefits versus the ~$4800 per month you pay a US worker in straight salary alone?

The jobs are going boys and they ain't coming back.

Unless, of course, you think your friends and neighbors here in the good 'ole USA should work for say.... $500 a month, wages AND benefits.

And then how will the rest of us do? How many folks making $500/month, wages AND benefits will play AH, Skuzzy? How many folks making $500/month will buy cars? Buy houses? How many folks making $500 a month will spend $100 for full house cable TV?

Global economy dudes. We got free trade, now we get to compete with guys that think $500 a month is living large.

It's easy to see where it leads. And it really has nothing to do with Unions. It has to do with "who will work for the least?" when that question is asked around the globe by a corporation.

It'll take a while but job flight is inevitable.


__________________
Toad
13th TAS

I'm having a hard time with this concept, Toad.  First of all, the conditions that spawned unions long ago were indeed atrocious.  There was a need back then, but unions have gone a long way to having outlived their usefulness.  Those conditions do not exist today, and Federal and State administrative law would prevent all of those past abuses today.  

Secondly, I can't bring myself to believe that American management and the workforce can't competitively build quality cars in the USA and sell them to make a profit, and therefore stay in buisness.  Thats why I'm asking the question, why aren't they doing it?  Why can't they change when faced with threats to their survival? You know, temporary sacrifices for a future gain and all that?  A realistic wage in a healthy long term industry is better than no wage.

I also don't believe its possible to NOT be involved in the global economy.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Skuzzy
Between the greed of unions and upper management, companies have no chance.  Being squeezed from the bottom and the top will eventually make the ballon pop.

There is no legal requirement to keep jobs in a particular country anymore.

Stockholders expect profit. If you can save 90% on labor costs in China, where would stockholders expect the company to build product?

The balloon isn't "popping". It's being stolen away by folks that will work for $500/month pay AND benefits. The balloon is just moving to a new address.

[Ikeprof]

I work for what is referred to as a tier one supplier to the big 3.  Thank god most of our business is with DCX, though we do some GM work too.

From what I can see on my side, there are a few major factors that aren't mentioned much.


Multiple inefficient individual legacy factories with alot of inter-company transportation costs.  Engine plant here, casting plant there, assembly plant over there.  Factories designed to run one, maybe two products per assembly line with limited flexibility and vehicles produced in batches.  Factories that are simply aged.


Attitude:

Before I came to the company I work for now, I worked for a company that serviced injection molding machines.  This allowed me to visit the Honda Marysville assembly plant in Ohio and then the following week I was in Utica Michigan at a ford plant.

There couldn't be a bigger contrast.  The honda facility was bright, well lit, clean and pleasant.  The people seemed happy or at least content and attentive to their work.

The Ford plant was dismal.  It was dark, extremely dirty, it seemed abandoned, though there were alot of people there.  Employees read large rather thick novels at their machines while performing their work rather than inspecting or whatever it was that they were supposed to do.

From a service persons perspective, even the way we were treated was radically different.  When we arrived at Honda, within 1 minute of our arrival, we were wisked on an electric cart to the machine that was broken and any and all requests for special large tools, diagrams/prints etc was responded to immediately.   At ford, we would wait sometimes for 2 hours for a person to show up to remove a bolt for us (we were forbidden to actually use any tools, we had to have someone do the physical work for us).  If we needed a different trades person (electrical for example), we had to keep the mechanical guy busy with something or he would wander off and it would be another hour or two before he could be coerced to come back to the machine and remove another bolt.

I don't know what to say.  I want to defend the American way, the people of this country etc, but in some respects, "we" are reaping what we have sown.

I think in todays age of plastic parts and cheap construction, the inability of the consumer to truly percieve quality and their associated distraction with shiny chromed plastic drives the producer of quality goods into a situation that ends either in complying with the lessening of quality or bankruptcy.

Of course this coming from someons who's first 69 Buick LeSabre had an actual frame made of 1/4" steel rather than unibody sheet metal....so I am a bit jaded.

[LePaul]

Originally posted by Toad
LP, as the world eventually turns, workers in auto plants in the US and Canada will either compete directly and equally with those in China or the jobs will go to ... China.  (And don't suspect for a moment that the Chinese workers won't have their turn in the box. A poorer country will eventually try to beat THEIR low bid as well.)

So what you expect is that "those morons" should work for the same as Chinese autoworkers right? Because THAT is the only way you will stop the transfer of jobs to the lowest cost producer. You have to match cost.

So how will this country and Canada do when autoworkers work for $500/month pay AND benefits? Do you think that might have downward wage pressure on other US and Canadian jobs?

Global workforce, dude. Free trade. We wanted it, we got it. Time to pay the piper.

Dude, as you guys have pointed out...management and union thinking have collided to crush a manufacturing giant.

I dont buy Ford, it means nothing to me.  I'm just an outside observer noticing the obvious.  

They dont have vehicles I want, or at the price tags I'm willing to pay.  While they have some good offerings out there, they are a clunk old company whose hands are tied by the UAW and their own bad choices.  they cant shut down and streamline without the UAW crying foul.  The UAW is simply along for the ride.  Wanting more when there are good times, and refusing to give up anything when the times are lean, such as now.

[Skuzzy]

I do not see greed from the union, causing less greed from upper management or vice-versa.  I am not sure why you consider this a 'checks and balances' scheme/approach.

You cannot get a job in some states without being part of a union (New York for example).  

Uhmm,..the people I have dealt with in unions cannot leave a job without an immediate replacement being available.  In some cases that immediate replacement is told to leave one employer for another.  Something to do with negation of attrition.  

What do you mean by 'no-thing'.  I am not part of a union.  Why is this a bad thing?  What would a union do for me, that I cannot do myself?

[ghi]

I drove in few months ago in Europe sharing the road with those "lawn mowers",   and last week in Dallas in that jungle of godzilas stile pick up trucks,
  Try it , is nice experience, and you will understand the bankrupcy of US carmakers
 They are having problems since fuel price went up, is not only about higher quality of japan/europe made cars

They are out the market for fuel eficient vehicles,  building monster engines like 30 years ago when the fuel price was cents/gal.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Gunthr
Those conditions do not exist today, and Federal and State administrative law would prevent all of those past abuses today.  

[/b]

Sadly, you are incorrect. I worked for a company that deliberately and routinely scheduled in violation of Federal Aviation Regulations. They covered this by "cooking the books" and altering flight times. There are laws against that you know. When caught at it, they merely claimed "bookkeeping errors" and went on their merry way.

So, from personal experience, I find your assumption incorrect.

Secondly, I can't bring myself to believe that American management and the workforce can't competitively build quality cars in the USA and sell them to make a profit, and therefore stay in buisness.

[/b]

For a while, they can. Take for example, however, the 2006 Hyundai Sonata. This car is selling for thousands less than the Accord or Camry and US car magazines are touting it as the equal of either competitor. The Japanese are beginning to look over their shoulder at their "low-cost" Korean competitors who are in turn looking over THEIR shoulder at their "low-cost" Chinese competitors.

 Joint Report and Policy Recommendations on Sectoral Implications of a China-Japan-Korea Free Trade Agreement

Korean business people10 in the automobile industry predict that a CJK FTA will substantially increase automobile imports from Japan, while it will greatly increase both Korea's auto exports and imports vis-a-vis China.

Furthermore, they foresee that a CJK FTA will increase both Japan's auto parts investment to Korea and Korea's auto parts investment to China. In addition, a CJK FTA is expected to decrease Korean automakers' domestic market share, while it will increase Korean automakers' Chinese and world market shares.

Korean business people also expect that a CJK FTA will enhance the competitiveness of the Korean automobile industry.

Now what does that mean in the long term for US automakers? You tell me.

 Thats why I'm asking the question, why aren't they doing it?  Why can't they change when faced with threats to their survival? You know, temporary sacrifices for a future gain and all that?  A realistic wage in a healthy long term industry is better than no wage.

[/b]

Because, at the end of the day, the wage has to be $500/month pay and benefits in order to compete with the lowest cost producer. Again, you tell me what that means for the American and Canadian autoworker?

I think it only means they can "buy a little time". The handwriting is on the wall though.

I also don't believe its possible to NOT be involved in the global economy.

If you really believe that and think that through, you'll see why manufacturing is going to keep leaving the US and Canada and go to countries that vie against each other to be the lowest cost labor pools.

It won't happen tomorrow. Or in 5 years or maybe even in 10. But your children and grandchildren won't be buying many large ticket items built in North America.

[Skuzzy]

Ikeprof brought up a good point as well.  People not being allowed to do things as it is not 'part of their job'.

When I worked for Tandy, we use to do our annual new product announcements in New York.  I was always there.  One year, we had a very large show to do.  The truck carrying all our display items had problems and got there late.
I started to open the truck, and was stopped by the hotel manager.  He told me it was illegal for us to open the truck.  We would have to wait until the union workers got there so they could do it.

Well, we waited, and waited.  Finally, they show up.  Thye open the back of the truck, then took a 30 minute break.  After the break, they start unloading the truck one item at a time.  Union regulations prevented them from moving more than one at a time.  Every 45 minutes, they took a 15 minute break.  No matter where they were, no matter what they were doing, they just stopped.  Like automatons.

We ended up being up until 4:00am due to the idiotic rules and regulations of a union and being in a state where nothing can happen without the proper union person doing it.  This is not condusive to getting things done.