N. texas shooters

[fartwinkle]

Debate over 22 Center-Fires for Deer
By Clay Oldham

 

         It seems there has always been, and probably always will be, a debate as to whether or not 22 caliber center fire cartridges are adequate as “deer” rounds.  With the recent introduction of new bullets, ammunition and cartridges the issue is getting more and more attention.  In the state of Texas 22 center fire cartridges are legal for hunting deer.  The TP&W Outdoor Annual states under the “Means and Methods” section concerning firearms:  Game animals and game birds may be hunted with any legal firearm, EXCEPT:  white-tailed deer, mule deer, desert bighorn sheep, and pronghorn antelope may NOT be hunted with rim-fire ammunition of any caliber.  Personally I believe anyone hunting deer or similar game with a rim-fire round should be beaten thoroughly and have their trigger finger chopped off at the knuckle.  There is no excuse for this highly unethical practice in today’s hunting environment.  Outside of the center fire rounds being legal there is also the issue of these rounds being ethical. I believe they are within their limitations.  Cartridges such as the 223 Remington, 22 –250 Remington, 220 Swift and the new 223 WSSM (Winchester Super Short Magnum), commonly thought of as varmint rounds, can quickly and humanly take deer.  Provided the hunter is willing to be patient and accurately place his or her shot.

     Winchester and Federal are currently cataloging 22 caliber rounds marketed as suitable for light thin-skinned game.  Winchester has two offerings one in 223 Remington and the other in 223 WSSM.  Both loads share the same bullet, a 64-grain Super-X Power Point (SX-PP).  Winchester even has a picture of a deer on the end of the box of these loads.  Speer’s 55-grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (TBBC) is the bullet Federal uses in its loads for this category.  One in 223 Remington as well as one in 22-250 Remington.  I did check the Remington catalog, but found no loadings being marketed as “deer” rounds in any of their 22 caliber center fire offerings.  I also didn’t find any loading for the 220 Swift by any manufacturer being recommended as a “deer” load.  The bullets mentioned above in the Winchester and Federal factory loads are also available for hand loading.   Another 22-caliber “hunting “ bullet is the 60-grain Partition from Nosler.  I was curious to see how these cartridges stacked up on paper to the more traditional rounds commonly thought of as suitable for deer.  The results can be seen in the following chart.

 

Cartridge Description
   

Muzzle (fps)/(ft lbs)
   

100 (yards)
   

200 (yards)
   

300 (yards)

Winchester, 223 Rem 64-gr SX-PP
   

3090/1357
   

2684/1024
   

2312/760
   

1971/552

Winchester, 223 WSSM 64-gr SX-PP
   

3600/1841
   

3144/1404
   

2732/1061
   

2356/789

Federal, 223 Rem 55-gr TBBC
   

3100/1175
   

2630/845
   

2210/595
   

1830/410

Federal, 22-250 Rem 55-gr TBBC
   

3600/1585
   

3080/1155
   

2610/835
   

2190/590

Remington, 22-250 Rem 55-gr PSP*
   

3680/1654
   

3137/1201
   

2656/861
   

2222/603

220 Swift 55-gr **
   

3900/1857
   

3469/1469
   

3079/1157
   

2721/904

Winchester, 270 Win 130-gr
   

3050/2685
   

2828/2309
   

2618/1978
   

2416/1685

Federal, 7mm-08 Rem 140-gr
   

2800/2440
   

2610/2135
   

2430/1840
   

2260/1590

30-06 Springfield 165-gr ***
   

2800/2872
   

2579/2463
   

2367/2053
   

2167/1720

·          *      Load is shown for data purposes only.  Remington makes no recommendation of this being a “deer” load.

·          **    Personal hand load I use in my 220 Swift.

·           *** Personal hand load I use in my 30-06 Springfield.

 

      All cartridges have certain limitations and the 22 center-fires are no exception.  Even with the factory ammunition and bullets of more robust construction and slightly heavier weights in some cases.  These rounds still lack some of the aspects more traditional cartridges have always had.  The obvious is caliber.  Which lacks frontal diameter and weight.  The frontal diameter being small means, even if the bullet performs well and mushrooms properly wound channels will likely be small.  Being lighter weight these bullets will have less momentum to penetrate thru bone and less likely to give a reliable exit on less than favorable angles thru the body.  Another disadvantage to lightweight bullets is their inability to retain energy over long distances.  Even with the high muzzle velocities energy drops off significantly after 100 yards.  Another factor to consider is lightweight bullets are also more subject to the effects of wind, rain, and other in field elements.  This reduces the effective range of what was a 300-400 yard coyote rifle to around 100-200 yard maximum hunting rifle requiring critical shot placement.  With all these factors stacked against these little cartridges.  Why would anyone consider them for hunting deer?  Some are drawn to a challenge, but I think it’s mainly because these cartridges are generally accurate and felt recoil is very light.  We’ve all seen hunters using larger rounds and “jerking” the trigger or “flinching” in anticipation of the recoil.  I believe a person should hunt with a gun they can shoot accurately and put power second, given the cartridge is adequate for the game they are hunting and the situation.   One well-placed shot is far better than five or six poorly placed ones.  I’ve said many times all the power in the world is wasted if not placed properly.

     Theories and on-paper ballistics of 22 CF rounds are good for discussion purposes, but what really counts is how they perform in the field.  I’ve used my 220 Swift to take a number of white-tailed doe.  The breaking of dawn one particularly cold December morning in the 2002-2003 hunting season found me seated in box blind waiting for an opportunity to fill a doe tag.  As light began to gradually filter over the frost covered grass and sparse Mesquite bushes I saw 3 white-tailed doe moving through the cover.  I picked out the largest of the 3 and began to wait for right opportunity for a shot at her.  She was standing face on about 70 yards away with her head up.  I settled the cross hairs of the scope just below the white on her neck and began to squeeze the trigger.  A sudden flash of orange and it was all over.  She collapsed in the grass and never moved.  Upon inspection, I found several of the vertebrae in her neck had been destroyed and the major arteries had been ruptured.  About a month later while hunting wild hogs in east Texas.  I decided to try for a hog with my Kimber 84M Varmint in 22-250 Remington.  Just before dark, perched in a blind overlooking a field adjacent to big bottom.  I saw several hogs enter the field from the thick cover about 200 yards from me.  One was a nice sow around 200 lbs or so.  I watched her for several minuets as she was feeding and moving up the hill towards me.  Once she had worked her way within about 100 yards.  I shouldered my rifle and prepared to take a shot.  I watched her through the scope until she put her head down to feed.  She never heard the report of the rifle as the little bullet struck her between the eyes, killing her before “quick” could get started.  Wild hogs are some of the hardest animals to bring down cleanly.  I’ve taken a number of them with my 22-250’s, all head and neck shots I might add, and have yet to have one take a step.  My good friend and hunting partner “Wild Bill” used his DPMS Panther Extreme Super Bull in 223 Remington to cleanly take a large doe on one our hunting trips.  The doe was 85 yards from him as he touched off the shot.  He placed the shot through her chest.  Upon entry the bullet stuck the shoulder blade, which is not what you want, but it still broke into the chest cavity.  Proving that these little bullets have more penetration capabilities than I originally gave them credit for having.  The doe staggered a short distance and fell.  When we field dressed her the damage done to the vital organs far surpassed what is commonly found with much larger rounds like the 270 Winchester or 30-06 Springfield.

     I’m not trying to recommend everyone run out and start using one of these 22 rounds for their uses, quite the contrary, only to realize the effectiveness of these cartridges when properly used and the challenge of hunting with them.  Hunter’s are always looking for challenges, which is why the number of Archery and Handgun hunters is on the rise.  Hunting with a 22 center-fire challenges hunters to make precise shot placements and to be honest with themselves and their abilities.  Also being aware of the bullets construction and how that bullet will perform on game.  This means waiting for the right opportunity or passing the shot all together.  Things we should all do regardless of what we choose as a hunting tool.  

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[Toad]

Originally posted by fartwinkle
Now if you go back to the beginning I was simply telling who ever it was that If you are not hunting anything bigger than white tail a 223 is fine.

Which is, to put a point on it, incorrect in most cases.

Again, it may be "fine" on a little bitty 100 lb deer taken at 65 yards from a blind unawares as he grazes under the Game feeder. Some people even call that "hunting" I guess. Whatever blows your skirt up.

However, the .223 is not a "fine" deer cartridge except in very specific short range circumstances like that one.

It has nothing to do with "average hunter accuracy" either. It has to do with the size of deer likely to be taken. It has to do with retained energy at 200, 300 and even 400 yards. It has to do with the size of the wound channel, sectional density. Boring stuff like that.

Stuff that every reputable writer, even the one you linked, shows the .223 Rem as deficient.

You've yet to show a writer saying the .223 is a "fine" all around deer cartridge from Atlantic to Pacific, Canada to Mexico.

That's because there aren't any writers willing to put something so foolish in print.

But feel free to type away yourself.

[fartwinkle]

Originally posted by Toad
he .223 Rem as deficient.

You've yet to show a writer saying the .223 is a "fine" all around deer cartridge from Atlantic to Pacific, Canada to Mexico.

But feel free to type away yourself.

I never said "all around" deer cartridge I said white tail and smaller game.
Most white tail are no bigger than a large dog.

[fartwinkle]

Ya know what GTO I apologise for the fat comments its just that I dont like being accused of being someone else.

I can see this fellow you seem to think I am has been banned.
Now for one minute do you think skuzzy would be so stupid as to let him back on?

Skuzzy knows whos IP address are who's.
So I feel rather sure that Skuzzy has made sure that the Mr Black thing is in the history books.

[fartwinkle]

Toad lets just say we disagree on this one.
Yes texas deer "hunting" is a comedy at best compared to the mule deer hunting I did years ago in Colo when I lived there.

In that case I used my fathers 308 norma magnum but we all know mule deer hunting in Colo and white tail hunting in Tx are two completly different things.

One is sport and the other is simply harvesting .

[Airscrew]

Originally posted by Toad
Let me guess... you're a "stand" type hunter not averse to hunting in areas where game feeders bring the deer into so you can get a shot at a contentedly grazing small animal at extreme short range (<100yards)?

sounds about right to me

Originally posted by Fart
I said up to 500yds and yes if you hit a deer in the right spot he will die

Fart - from your article
Being lighter weight these bullets will have less momentum to penetrate thru bone and less likely to give a reliable exit on less than favorable angles thru the body.  Another disadvantage to lightweight bullets is their inability to retain energy over long distances.  Even with the high muzzle velocities energy drops off significantly after 100 yards.  Another factor to consider is lightweight bullets are also more subject to the effects of wind, rain, and other in field elements.  This reduces the effective range of what was a 300-400 yard coyote rifle to around 100-200 yard maximum hunting rifle requiring critical shot placement.

...seated in box blind waiting for an opportunity to fill a doe tag.....She was standing face on about 70 yards away with her head up.

....perched in a blind overlooking a field ... I watched her for several minuets as she was feeding and moving up the hill towards me.  Once she had worked her way within about 100 yards.  I shouldered my rifle and prepared to take a shot.  I watched her through the scope until she put her head down to feed.

[Toad]

Originally posted by fartwinkle
I never said "all around" deer cartridge I said white tail and smaller game.
Most white tail are no bigger than a large dog.

Most TEXAS whitetail.

It's not a good whitetail cartridge EXCEPT on little bitty deer like you shoot, at short little ranges like you shoot, at unaware deer taken from a blind at extreme short range.

Even then it's not "good", it's merely "adequate".

Ever taken a really big whitetail with your mighty .223? 200+ pounds? Ever? At ranges out to 300 yards? If not, you're just ..what did you say before... talking "outta your arse"?

A guy up in Nebraska killed a 412 lb Whitetail. How would you like to be holding your mighty .223 when that deer walked out across a cut cornfield at 300 yards? The trophy of a lifetime and you're, sadly, way undergunned.

Again, the .223 Rem is not a "good" whitetail cartridge EXCEPT on little bitty deer like you shoot, at short little ranges like you shoot, at unaware deer taken from a blind at extreme short range.

Even then it's not "good", it's merely "adequate".

And just about everybody in the gun business recognizes that.

[fartwinkle]

Yes airscrew thats my point.
I think if you see on common thread in all these articals it is shot placement.

It is common sense to not shot any game animal with a light load in a bone area or atleast it should be.

[fartwinkle]

Originally posted by Toad
Most TEXAS whitetail.

It's not a good whitetail cartridge EXCEPT on little bitty deer like you shoot, at short little ranges like you shoot, at unaware deer taken from a blind at extreme short range.

Even then it's not "good", it's merely "adequate".

Ever taken a really big whitetail with your mighty .223? 200+ pounds? Ever? At ranges out to 300 yards? If not, you're just ..what did you say before... talking "outta your arse"?

A guy up in Nebraska killed a 412 lb Whitetail. How would you like to be holding your mighty .223 when that deer walked out across a cut cornfield at 300 yards? The trophy of a lifetime and you're, sadly, way undergunned.

Again, the .223 Rem is not a "good" whitetail cartridge EXCEPT on little bitty deer like you shoot, at short little ranges like you shoot, at unaware deer taken from a blind at extreme short range.

Even then it's not "good", it's merely "adequate".

And just about everybody in the gun business recognizes that.

And again you are attempting to read more into what I am saying than there is.

Perhapes if conditions were right I might take a 300yd shot at a N texas whitetail.
But there would have to be no wind no rain and the dear would have to present itself in such a manner I could get a shot to the vitals cleanly.

Agreed I never have liked using blinds or tree stands like i said I concider this harvesting and not hunting.

There is no such thing as hunting  with out a stalk being involved.
So is Mule deer or elk hunting in the rockies more of a challenge?
You bet it is but perhapes the reason I use the 223 in tx is because I enjoy the challege and It has never let me down yet

[Toad]

No, the common thread is that the .223 is NOT an adequate whitetail cartridge unless:

1. The deer is very small

2. The deer is taken at extreme short range

3. The shot is carefully placed.

Yet you continue to insist the .223 is "fine" for whitetail even though every intelligent article on the subject places these major restrictive qualifications on its use.

It's isn't an adequate whitetail deer cartridge except in very specific, very limited circumstances.

[Airscrew]

Shot placement is never a bad thing and we dont disagree on shot placement.  Where we disagree is no matter how you look at the .223 it is not adequate for Deer hunting.  Its on the fringe, and as Toad has said, if your buck is more than 200 yards away, wave good bye.   When I used the 300 win mag w/ 180 grn or 220 grn bullet I didn't have to worry about distance, I dont have to worry bone.  And I still only need one shot, and I still have to have shot placement.   Just because its a bigger caliber doesnt mean I can be sloppy.

[Toad]

Originally posted by fartwinkle
You bet it is but perhapes the reason I use the 223 in tx is because I enjoy the challege and It has never let me down yet

Which is a far cry from saying the .223 is a "fine" deer cartridge.

What you seem to be saying is the .223 is a "fine" deer cartridge for

1. you
 
on

2. small Texas whitetails

at

3. stationary or near stationary deer

Again, that's an incredibly limited scenario when considering the universe of whitetail hunting.

So, tell us...what's the largest live weight deer you have taken with a .223, what was the range and was it stationary/near stationary when you took the shot?

[fartwinkle]

Originally posted by Toad
No, the common thread is that the .223 is NOT an adequate whitetail cartridge unless:

1. The deer is very small

2. The deer is taken at extreme short range

3. The shot is carefully placed.

Yet you continue to insist the .223 is "fine" for whitetail even though every intelligent article on the subject places these major restrictive qualifications on its use.

It's isn't an adequate whitetail deer cartridge except in very specific, very limited circumstances.

Dude im talking about what I do ! Not what the rest of the world does.
And again try and stay with me on this.
I agree with your comments in 1.2.3

So yes the 223 is fine for whitetail if again you are sure of your shot placement.

I will always believe that shot placement is more important than calibur size.

In fact I could if I was insane enough to try kill a kodiak bear with a 22 rimfire.
Granted I would have to ram it up his are and pull the trigger but it would be done.

Silly analogy i know but you get my point.

Could I take a mullie with a 223 yes.
Would I ever try to NO.

You have to understand that the N texas whitetail is not only not that big but they lack the toughness of other deer like Mule deer.

I have see mullie rune for 100 yds after being hit by my father weatherby 300 mag.
And I think we can agree that that is plenty of gun.

[fartwinkle]

Originally posted by Toad
Which is a far cry from saying the .223 is a "fine" deer cartridge.

What you seem to be saying is the .223 is a "fine" deer cartridge for

1. you
 
on

2. small Texas whitetails

at

3. stationary or near stationary deer

Again, that's an incredibly limited scenario when considering the universe of whitetail hunting.

So, tell us...what's the largest live weight deer you have taken with a .223, what was the range and was it stationary/near stationary when you took the shot?

Ofcoures Im saying for just me.
I cant speak for anyone else but myself now can I?

Largest was 143lbs 255yds est and I was prone.

[fartwinkle]

Originally posted by Airscrew
Shot placement is never a bad thing and we dont disagree on shot placement.  Where we disagree is no matter how you look at the .223 it is not adequate for Deer hunting.  Its on the fringe, and as Toad has said, if your buck is more than 200 yards away, wave good bye.   When I used the 300 win mag w/ 180 grn or 220 grn bullet I didn't have to worry about distance, I dont have to worry bone.  And I still only need one shot, and I still have to have shot placement.   Just because its a bigger caliber doesnt mean I can be sloppy.

I agree with the addition that if the shooter can make a clean shot to the vitals in that case it is adequate.
But if he is the typical dude that shoots a couple times a year and then goes hunting then probably not.

But I tend to spend one full day a week at the range so and im really not trying to brag here but shot placement is easy with me as I know this weapon inside and out I built it.
I also have worked out all the doping on this weapon and load.
I also spend a cpuple hours a night reloading I never use factory ammo.