Christians and end times- Are they here?

[Chairboy]

Lazs, I think that the wacky extremists in any religion can do that themselves without my help.

My intention was to find out what the community thought and nothing else.  You want dishonesty?  How about your motivations for questioning my inquiry?  I don't ever see you criticizing Seagoon or others for testifying or praising jesus.  

If I didn't know better, I'd say you were a hypocrite for being so one sided when you criticize ONLY the atheist inquiries.

Also, for crying out loud, why do you guys keep calling me a liberal?  I'm no democrat, I own a bunch of guns and believe in the entire bill of rights (not just the convenient ones), I think that the smaller the government the better, and I criticize the entitlement based welfare state the US has become.  Where the frack does this stupid 'omfg chairboy is teh liberal' crap come from?

[lazs2]

chair... do you really not get it?   seagoon admits that his beliefs are based on faith.   Why would I criticize him?

It would do no more good than to get all angry and mean with the people I know who believe in aliens visiting us.... for all I know both they, and seagoon are correct and.... in the case of seagoon.... I believe that he does good.   Far from a threat.... I see him as a positive influence on the human condition.

If he says anthing that threatens me and is based soley on his faith.... watch me then.

But so far as being dishonest?  I don't detect that in him.   So... he either really believes or he has fooled me.

I criticize the athiest because he will not admit his dishonesty.... it seems a very liberal "end justifies the means" sorta religion  very.... liberal socialist thinking... they seem to be wanting to stamp out any other belief too.  Say.... if 80% of the taxpayers believe in god and support the government with their money...

Shouldn't they be able to have the simple word "god" on their money or the buildings they built or in the oaths they make their paid and elected officials take?   Certainly, those who do not believe in god are welcome to ignore the word.

I do not feel threatened by it.

lazs

[lazs2]

oh... and sorry about the liberal label.... It is just that for the most part... when you scratch an athiest you find a liberal.... perhaps you are not dishonest...

perhaps "stupid" does not even describe you well.... probly "naive" and "ignorant" is more apt... I do not use ignorant in the negative way here.... it is probly that you simply have not much experiance with athiests.

for example.... several countries were populated with athiests allmost exclussively... they were communist countries.   Today.... the more socialist a country becomes the more athiest.   the worship of big government leaves no room for god.

lazs

[Chairboy]

You still haven't explained where the dishonesty of atheism comes from.  Why is my non-belief in christian superstition dishonest while Seagoon's faith is somehow holy?  

You're being dishonest with yourself.  I think you should take a moment to examine your motives.

[lazs2]

can't explain it any better.... it is dishonest to say that you BELIEVE WITH NO PROOF that there is no god but refuse to say that athiesm is based soley on faith.

seagoon claims that god exists (along with many other things) but.... he admits that it is entirely based on faith that he can't prove.

If athiest were not dishonest then there would be no need to have a seperate category called...... agnostic.   If you were to claim to be agnostic then that would seem an honest and plausable belief.

my motives are simply based on the above.   I simply want people to admit their agenda without hiding behind a word or words.

Seagoons agenda seems quite clear... and agnostics agenda, likewise... but athiesm..... see my point?

lazs

[Chairboy]

That's bollox.  There's NO EVIDENCE that god exists, so I don't believe it exists.  

There's also no evidence that Santa Claus exists, so I don't believe he exists.

Am I dishonest for not believing in Santa Claus?

[Suave]

Originally posted by Chairboy

Also, for crying out loud, why do you guys keep calling me a liberal?

Because you don't love jesus, and you don't dislike islam, and you might be a jew, and not the isreali kind either.

Seriously though, why do care what the fifth ward thinks of you?

[Chairboy]

Originally posted by Suave
Seriously though, why do care what the fifth ward thinks of you?

I'm just calling attention to the tactics that Lazs and whatshisname are using.  How weak does an argument need to be to switch to lies, ad hominems and misdirection?  I've been completely straight here, and ironically Lazs accuses me of dishonesty while HE fabricates personal attacks.

Beautiful.

[lazs2]

I can't say for certain that there is no santa claus.... I kinda doubt it but...

I can't say for certain that there are no aliens visiting.

I would probly not look to foolish on the first... even if the damn guy came out of hiding.... not gonna go on a "there is no santa" crusade every xmas tho..

I would probly be ok on the second too... maybe not... I am not gonna go on a "there are no aliens" campaign...

might be a bigfoot too... who friggin knows?

I am saying that I believe there is a god.   a creator.... I have no idea what form he takes.   I admit that I have no proof and that I base my belief soley on faith.   It just seems right to me on a personal level.... I do not ask you to share my belief.    

So far I have not seen any evidence that it is not possible for there to be a supreme being, a creator....

Now, conversely.... when you tell me that all faith in things that can't be proven is ignorant superstition but then turn around and say that without doubt.... even tho you can't prove it..... there is no god.

How could you be trusted?

[Chairboy]

Conversely, when you say that you think "something" magical created things, how can YOU be trusted?

Why is one better than the other?

[lazs2]

You can "trust" that I will tell you what I believe.   You can "trust" that I have as good a theory as anyone else and that I am only taking the resposibilty for it.

lazs

[Chairboy]

Then why is my theory NOT as good as any other?  You're pushing a religious POV and you don't even realize it.  You're being dishonest with yourself and the rest of us by claiming you're not.

[Gunthr]

Choir, its possible you don't even realize that you are submarining.   Its obvious you have an agenda against Christians, and I believe, against the so-called "religieous right."

Sorry about anything that seemed ad hominem.  I noted what appears to be submarineing in a couple of your other threads, we discussed it to no good end, and I had resolved to just let my peeve about it go.    I posted in this thread earlier without mentioning it.  but Lazs hit on it and I had to chime in.  Maybe there is something to it?

[lazs2]

ok chair... I am not "pushing" anything.... I have said that my belief is a personal one based soley on faith and that I expect no one to believe the same as I do.

but.... as I said in another thread.... we can clear this all up.... perhaps I was wrong about you...

Soooo are you saying..... That you do not think that there is a god but that you do not think that is impsossible that one could exist?

lazs

[Chairboy]

I've never ever said that it's impossible for a god to exist.  I just don't think that one does.

Atheism means "without theism" as in "without god".  Religionists have made atheism into such a wacky boogyman and have convinced folks like you that atheists are all militant anti-christians.  We just don't think that a god exists, and that's it.

"So you're agnostic?" you ask.

No, agnostics aren't sure.  They're 'wishy washy', to use the language from earlier in the thread.  They say "gosh, I dunno...."

I just don't think there's a god, but that doesn't mean I'm part of some anti-god religion.

From an atheism faq:

"But isn't disbelieving in God the same thing as believing he doesn't exist?"

Definitely not. Disbelief in a proposition means that one does not believe it to be true. Not believing that something is true is not equivalent to believing that it is false; one may simply have no idea whether it is true or not. Which brings us to agnosticism.
"What is agnosticism then?"

The term 'agnosticism' was coined by Professor T.H. Huxley at a meeting of the Metaphysical Society in 1876. He defined an agnostic as someone who disclaimed both ("strong") atheism and theism, and who believed that the question of whether a higher power existed was unsolved and insoluble. Another way of putting it is that an agnostic is someone who believes that we do not know for sure whether God exists. Some agnostics believe that we can never know.

In recent years, however, the term agnostic has also been used to describe those who simply believe that the evidence for or against God is inconclusive, and therefore are undecided about the issue.

To reduce the amount of confusion over the use of term agnosticism, it is recommended that usage based on a belief that we cannot know whether God exists be qualified as "strict agnosticism" and usage based on the belief that we merely do not know yet be qualified as "empirical agnosticism".

Words are slippery things, and language is inexact. Beware of assuming that you can work out someone's philosophical point of view simply from the fact that she calls herself an atheist or an agnostic. For example, many people use agnosticism to mean what is referred to here as "weak atheism", and use the word "atheism" only when referring to "strong atheism".

Beware also that because the word "atheist" has so many shades of meaning, it is very difficult to generalize about atheists. About all you can say for sure is that atheists don't believe in God. For example, it certainly isn't the case that all atheists believe that science is the best way to find out about the universe.