Atheism and the USA, followup

[Bodhi]

You are in error, and confirmed my statements.  

Any Religion running any government is wrong, UNLESS the people democratically vote that in.  Don't count on my vote for that or me staying around if it happens.  Now I would vote for the return and mandatory display of the 10 commandments in all court rooms and schools.  Call them anything you want, they are just good rules to live by.  That and the return of the Pledge of Allegiance, both are just good rules / principles to live by.  But, I am one man, and it has not come up on the ballot, so no "religionist agenda" being pushed here.  Just my opinions.

[Chairboy]

Thanks for the quote, Gunslinger, good additional perspective on Adams.  I've got some other quotes from him on religion, I'll post those later, but I don't want it to look like a rebuttal.  

Same to you, Hangtime, you've also made some great points (much more eloquently than me).

[xrtoronto]

...boy, they got your number, don't they?

[Bodhi]

Nash,

You, the king of intolerance, need not lecture me about that word.  You, who spends more time whining about other peoples views, complaining about that which you have no right to influence, and generally whining about the US government need to take a class on tolerance.  

BTW, trying to tell me I can not tolerate you is more or less a waste of breath as well as a flat out lie.  I think you are nothing more than a malcontent, and that even if this was utopia, you'd still find fault.  So, whats the point in even engaging a discussion with you.  You view the world in your mind with a skew that apparently makes you believe that your view is the only one.  Truth is, there are so few like you out there that it really does not matter what you think.

Nice ploy on the attempt to call yourself a "casual observer"... almost choked laughing.  

[Hangtime]

Originally posted by Bodhi
You are in error, and confirmed my statements.  

Any Religion running any government is wrong, UNLESS the people democratically vote that in.  Don't count on my vote for that or me staying around if it happens.  Now I would vote for the return and mandatory display of the 10 commandments in all court rooms and schools.  Call them anything you want, they are just good rules to live by.  That and the return of the Pledge of Allegiance, both are just good rules / principles to live by.  But, I am one man, and it has not come up on the ballot, so no "religionist agenda" being pushed here.  Just my opinions.

Bhodi, the Law of this Land is the Constitution.. not the 10 Commandments. We, as a nation; owe our allegience to the constitution. Not the Church and it's Laws. By placing the 10 commandments over our Contitution we aknowledge the Primacy of the Church over Government. That's a revisonist re-write.

Regarding the possibility of a 'vote' to establish religious primacy.. should that occur, I shall perish with my rifle in hand. I'm not leaving. I will fight. I am well aware that this 'democracy' is all but a sham.. my elected representative government no longer speaks in the halls of the house or the senate to the will of the people. It is the corporate shill. What keeps my rifle in it's case is the hope that once awakened, the people will act to regain control of their representatives by replacing them. In our lifetime we will see either the peoples government restored or the public chained. Either way, my voice will be heard.

[Holden McGroin]

"I preach no religous intolerance."[/i]

Do I have to do a search on "Bodhi" + "towel heads?" Or "gays" or whatever else you also happen to be intolerant of?

Nice try, but please, don't patronize us.
 

just wondering...since when did gay become a religion?

[Nilsen]

Originally posted by Holden McGroin
just wondering...since when did gay become a religion?

they worship the pole dont they?

[Bodhi]

Originally posted by Hangtime
Bhodi, the Law of this Land is the Constitution.. not the 10 Commandments. We, as a nation; owe our allegience to the constitution. Not the Church and it's Laws. By placing the 10 commandments over our Contitution we aknowledge the Primacy of the Church over Government. That's a revisonist re-write.

Regarding the possibility of a 'vote' to establish religious primacy.. should that occur, I shall perish with my rifle in hand. I'm not leaving. I will fight. I am well aware that this 'democracy' is all but a sham.. my elected representative government no longer speaks in the halls of the house or the senate to the will of the people. It is the corporate shill. What keeps my rifle in it's case is the hope that once awakened, the people will act to regain control of their representatives by replacing them. In our lifetime we will see either the peoples government restored or the public chained. Either way, my voice will be heard.

Hangtime,

The Law of this land IS the contstitution.  Never disagreed with that.  What I said plain and so VERY simply was that the 10 Commandments, pretty nice set of laws, were displayed in most courthouses for a lot of years, never said you had to believe in God to follow them, just stated I though they were good principles to live by.  Same goes for the Pledge of Allegiance.  Can you think of something that better defines what you should do for your country?  Pledge you allegiance to uphold and protect it's constitution and people.... thats how I hear it.  

Anyways, this argument is getting old.  You are anti-religion.  Guess what.  I am too.  I think most religions of the world are dominated by the search for power.  I can not think of anymore warped way to twist the values set down by God (whom I believe is the same in all religous belief just they use different names) then for a religion to search for power.  

Belief in God is a personal issue.  The choices you make are yours and yours alone.  I hope your choice is right for you.  I know mine is right for me.  After saying that, I still believe that my previous post with regards to the commandments was spot on.  Good socially moral guidelines to "remind" others walking through those doors that maybe, just maybe, your actions affect others around you.  

Good night.

[Nash]

" just wondering...since when did gay become a religion?"

You obviously haven't seen a gay parade. It's like a gospel church run amok in the middle of the street high on rapture and acid.... and buttless chaps.

Hey - it's what they believe. Who am I to judge?

[Arlo]

Originally posted by lazs2
Jefferson believed as I believe so far as I can tell

"We have solved, by fair experiment, the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to Virginia Baptists, 1808. ME 16:320
"The constitutional freedom of religion [is] the most inalienable and sacred of all human rights." --Thomas Jefferson: Virginia Board of Visitors Minutes, 1819. ME 19:416

"Among the most inestimable of our blessings, also, is that... of liberty to worship our Creator in the way we think most agreeable to His will; a liberty deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our experience to be its best support." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to John Thomas et al., 1807. ME 16:291

"In our early struggles for liberty, religious freedom could not fail to become a primary object." --Thomas Jefferson to Baltimore Baptists, 1808. ME 16:317

"Religion, as well as reason, confirms the soundness of those principles on which our government has been founded and its rights asserted." --Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815. ME 14:283

"One of the amendments to the Constitution... expressly declares that 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press,' thereby guarding in the same sentence and under the same words, the freedom of religion, of speech, and of the press; insomuch that whatever violates either throws down the sanctuary which covers the others." --Thomas Jefferson: Draft Kentucky Resolutions, 1798. ME 17:382

"The rights [to religious freedom] are of the natural rights of mankind, and... if any act shall be... passed to repeal [an act granting those rights] or to narrow its operation, such act will be an infringement of natural right." --Thomas Jefferson:



I think that he felt that everyone was entitled to believe as he wished and that the "establishment of religion" as it applied to the government meant that no one religion would recieve any special treatment under or be sponsored soley by government.

... I find chairboy and others insistence that they are "athiests" to be pretty funny... It seems like a play for attention... a play to look "hip"... silly really.

Why not just say "I don't know" and be done with it if you have doubts?  certainly.... you have no proof nor.... does it really affect you one way or the other....

To have to go out of your way to claim and repeatedly proclaim in every available forum (here... to grandma etc.) that "I AM AN ATHIEST"  to shock and to garner attention... this smacks of religion to me...your athiesm is a religion.

Concur. Thought it bore repeating.

[FUNKED1]

The only thing as annoying as people who are obsessed with their belief in God's existence is...

people who are obsessed with their belief in God's non-existence.

[Nash]

Originally posted by FUNKED1
The only thing as annoying as people who are obsessed with their belief in God's existence is...

people who are obsessed with their belief in God's non-existence.

The funny thing is... is that you don't see much of that. Or.... any of that.

At least I can't recall seeing the pressure applied to the government for X or Y agenda from the Council of Concerned Athiests.

.... and don't you dare try and lump in the majority of those who share religious values with atheists, just because they are against imposing those values on everyone else.

[Hangtime]

Originally posted by Bodhi
Hangtime,

The Law of this land IS the contstitution.  Never disagreed with that.  What I said plain and so VERY simply was that the 10 Commandments, pretty nice set of laws, were displayed in most courthouses for a lot of years, never said you had to believe in God to follow them, just stated I though they were good principles to live by.  Same goes for the Pledge of Allegiance.  Can you think of something that better defines what you should do for your country?  Pledge you allegiance to uphold and protect it's constitution and people.... thats how I hear it.  

Anyways, this argument is getting old.  You are anti-religion.  Guess what.  I am too.  I think most religions of the world are dominated by the search for power.  I can not think of anymore warped way to twist the values set down by God (whom I believe is the same in all religous belief just they use different names) then for a religion to search for power.  

Belief in God is a personal issue.  The choices you make are yours and yours alone.  I hope your choice is right for you.  I know mine is right for me.  After saying that, I still believe that my previous post with regards to the commandments was spot on.  Good socially moral guidelines to "remind" others walking through those doors that maybe, just maybe, your actions affect others around you.  

Good night.

I have horribly misrepresented myself if I come off as anti-religion.. I'm an agnostic by social definition, by my own; I'm just ambivelent. I see many good works done in the name of God.. who here could impune that men like Seagoon are a bane on society?

On the other side of that coin is the evidence of History. God and Government should remain mutually exclusive propositions of faith. In my mind, salvation of this nation lies not with God.. it lies upon our shoulders; not His.

Socially, the Moral Guidelines of the Great Proposition has no equal.. and in my opinion; should supplant all occurances in our publicly funded buildings and edifieces of Governement any religious exposal of piety... as proof to the other Religious (and defective by that fact) nations of this world our intent as a nation AND a People just what it is we are about. The People hold their own Destiny in Thier hands. Not God.

Humor me. Read this aloud. Feel the tingle. You'll stand straighter. Your shoulders will square a bit. Your voice will gain a a steely tone. And you'll walk your Path a little taller.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. [/b]

[SaburoS]

I accept the fact that there are those that believe in a God/Supreme Being. They see it as truthful as the air we breathe, the water we drink.

I also believe with the same if not more conviction of there not being the existance of a supreme being. I reached my conclusions based on the lack of factual evidence. I'm a "show me" type of person and take many things that seem to defy logic (based on my interpretations of course) with a healthy dose of scepticism. You want me to believe, then show me some actual facts and proof, not conjecture.

There's a reason they call it faith and not fact.
You cannot prove to me that God does exist. Why, because it's called faith.
Heaven? Nope, faith.
Hell? Nope, faith.

I call myself an Atheist only because that seems to be the label for those that don't believe in a God/Supreme Being.
I don't "practice" it for it is not a religion. I don't pray to anything. I don't go to Atheist gatherings (is there truly such a thing?). I don't have to do anything to prove my Atheism to others or to myself. It is what I am. I pay about as much attention to my Atheism as I do to my skin color which is nil. I pay even less to it than my heritage. There's not even an official book, nor is there required passages that I have to read/quote/etc in order to be an Atheist. I am what I am.

I have but one life. I was born, I live, one day I'll die. No God or Satan, no heaven or hell, no reincarnation, no afterlife, etc. I have only one shot at it.

If I am right about there not being a God/Supreme Being, you lose nothing. If you are right about your version of Christianity, then I'm screwed. Think of how strong my convictions must be then.

We're all different with our own views. I'll respect your rights as long as you respect mine, deal?

Regards,
SaburoS

[Octavius]

The issue whether anyone is/was religious/nonreligious/in-between should have absolutely no bearing on the current structure.  I personally find many of the founders to be rakes... albeit rakes with good points.  Here, I'll copy/paste from the same site as lazs:

"I have ever thought religion a concern purely between our God and our consciences, for which we were accountable to Him, and not to the priests." --Thomas Jefferson to Mrs. M. Harrison Smith, 1816. ME 15:60

"From the dissensions among Sects themselves arise necessarily a right of choosing and necessity of deliberating to which we will conform. But if we choose for ourselves, we must allow others to choose also, and so reciprocally, this establishes religious liberty." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776. Papers 1:545

"Religion is a subject on which I have ever been most scrupulously reserved. I have considered it as a matter between every man and his Maker in which no other, and far less the public, had a right to intermeddle." --Thomas Jefferson to Richard Rush, 1813.

"I never will, by any word or act, bow to the shrine of intolerance or admit a right of inquiry into the religious opinions of others." --Thomas Jefferson to Edward Dowse, 1803. ME 10:378

"Our particular principles of religion are a subject of accountability to God alone. I inquire after no man's, and trouble none with mine." --Thomas Jefferson to Miles King, 1814. ME 14:198

[/b]


God, dog, flying spaghetti monster or lackthereof, I hope we find harmony whichever path we choose... lets keep it to ourselves, mmkay?