Author Topic: Atheism and the USA, followup  (Read 9392 times)

Offline wrag

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #465 on: May 27, 2006, 06:30:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vulcan
Chairboy... sorry to do this mate but:

athiesm does not mean a lack of religious beliefs. Buddhists can be athiests. Buddha is not a god, superhuman, etc.

I not only do not believe in a god, I believe there is no possibility of one existing.

HOWEVER... this is not a leap of faith, I base this on:
 - physical impossibilities, did time exist before the universe existed for example? (theres many more)
 - inconsistancies in god definitions by religious sects which show a god to be a fantastical being (ie fantasy)


A small point, an fyi, Vulcan does not create the same reaction in me as.......

Perhaps because IMHO Vulcan uses a different technque, applies a different approach, says what vulcan wishs to say and lacks the methods I find so upsetting in anothers post.

Vulcan.
It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.

Offline Arlo

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #466 on: May 27, 2006, 07:02:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vulcan

HOWEVER... this is not a leap of faith, I base this on: (other people's reasons for their beliefs)


Your choosing to not accept another's version of their belief in something that is not physically confirmable (nor deniable) based on their reasons not being concrete enough for you does not make your viewpoint something other than your own belief (more concrete). Therefore anyone's committed stance on the flavor of God or even his existance is indeed a leap of faith. This certainly seems to be a case of the only one's not leaping being the ones not committed. ;)
« Last Edit: May 27, 2006, 07:40:57 PM by Arlo »

Offline Holden McGroin

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #467 on: May 27, 2006, 07:04:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
Therefore anyone's committed stance on the flavor of God or even his existance is indeed a leap of faith.


Wintergreen.
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Offline Arlo

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« Reply #468 on: May 27, 2006, 07:04:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Wintergreen.


I support your faith in your belief, brother. :)

Offline Vulcan

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« Reply #469 on: May 27, 2006, 09:27:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
Your choosing to not accept another's version of their belief in something that is not physically confirmable (nor deniable) based on their reasons not being concrete enough for you does not make your viewpoint something other than your own belief (more concrete). Therefore anyone's committed stance on the flavor of God or even his existance is indeed a leap of faith. This certainly seems to be a case of the only one's not leaping being the ones not committed. ;)


Do you believe in Vishnu? The abonimable snownam? Sasquatch? The tooth fairy? Unicorns? fire-breathing dragons? titans? Zeus even ;)

You opinion of what is faith is blinded by your own wish to promote your religion over logic.

To me your god is just another mythical creature. Not believing in him is no more a matter of faith than not believing on other mythical creature.

Perhaps it makes you insecure to know people can live good lives without attributing it to a mythical god or fear of heaven, hell and some final judgemnet?

Offline lukster

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #470 on: May 27, 2006, 10:09:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vulcan
Perhaps it makes you insecure to know people can live good lives without attributing it to a mythical god or fear of heaven, hell and some final judgemnet?


Insecure? Not me, just the opposite really. Of course my belief is that a caring God created all that is and so it really wouldn't be possible for you to live any kind of life at all, good or bad, had he not created you.

If there is in fact no realm of existence beyond our 5 senses, and all that we see somehow just is, without creation, then good and bad become relative terms. Though I find the concept of this less than satisfying it does not make me feel "insecure".

Offline Arlo

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« Reply #471 on: May 28, 2006, 12:16:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vulcan
You opinion of what is faith is blinded by your own wish to promote your religion over logic.

To me your god is just another mythical creature. Not believing in him is no more a matter of faith than not believing on other mythical creature.

Perhaps it makes you insecure to know people can live good lives without attributing it to a mythical god or fear of heaven, hell and some final judgemnet?


I'm not the one exhibiting insecurity right now, however. You're as free to believe in what you can't prove (even the non-existance of) as any of the worshippers of any of the gods you've listed, mine included. I can accept that. Seems you can't. Doesn't make you as different as you'd like it to, which isn't as unfortunate as the deal you're making over it. That's about as logical as logic gets. When you feel like divorcing your own emotions and dealing with my assertions as logically, then show me. :D

Offline Vulcan

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« Reply #472 on: May 28, 2006, 01:50:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
I'm not the one exhibiting insecurity right now, however. You're as free to believe in what you can't prove (even the non-existance of) as any of the worshippers of any of the gods you've listed, mine included. I can accept that. Seems you can't. Doesn't make you as different as you'd like it to, which isn't as unfortunate as the deal you're making over it. That's about as logical as logic gets. When you feel like divorcing your own emotions and dealing with my assertions as logically, then show me. :D


If god exists may he strike me down...

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nope, still here, I win.

Offline lukster

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #473 on: May 28, 2006, 08:38:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vulcan
If god exists may he strike me down...

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nope, still here, I win.


Give it 30-40 years. ;)

Offline lazs2

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #474 on: May 28, 2006, 08:54:08 AM »
vulcan... I respect your beliefs but submit that they are only faith based beliefs.... you can't be sure that something does not exist based on lack of knowledge available to you unless you are doing it based on faith.   At times in history allmost everything was impossible to understand.    

It is just as easy to say that no scientific theiory is possible for creation.   Does that mean that nothing exists?

Why is it more fantasical to think that god was eternal than to think that there has allways been matter?

Like I said tho... you are welcome to your belief.   Many so called scientists did not believe that the atom existed either.

lazs

Offline texace

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #475 on: May 28, 2006, 10:30:47 AM »
Personal opinion? Religion was created by men to explain things that other men did not understand. These men disguised their lack of understanding as gods and demons. For example, let's look at crops. Crops not growing? It was the work of the devil. Crops plentiful? It was God's blessing. Back before these folks knew of weather patterns, soil composition, growing seasons, photosynthesis, and other scientific doohickeys that explain why crops grow, the only way they could explain why their crops grew or didn't grow at all was through these higher beings. I believe that this is the basis of religion, men trying to explain things that they themselves do not understand. Being that many folks had their own ideas about which gods were responsible for what, the basis of all modern religions were founded through ignorance and lack of understanding. Know-it-alls with an agenda. I'm aware that this is probaby very wrong, being that I don't know a lot about the origin of each religion. I'm simply using a blanket statement to share my thoughts.

Religion exists today because there is no absolute truth to what is and what isn't. We have a lot of really solid ideas, but no absolute. There is no absolute to where man comes from, there is no absolute to where the Universe came from, there is no absolute to where we are going...there's simply ideas and theories. Religion, born out of ignornace and lack of knowledge, continues to thrive because there is still no knowledge. People rely on faith in a being that may or may not exist to give them meaning in their lives, to give them guidence and care when they need it and to give them comfort when everything goes wrong.

Now I want to make myself very clear when I say that I believe that people should be allowed to practice whatever faith they like. I make no judgements on anyone's character or otherwise based solely on what they think. I do not persecute and I do not look down on those that feel differently than I do. What you are about to read is my personal belief on the subject of God vs. No-God.

I, personally, have never seen an instance where a higher being has influenced life as we know it. I am full-blown agnostic. I do not know for a fact if their is a higher being responsible for this mess we call a world. I do not know for a fact that there is not a higher being responsible for this mess we call a world. But, at the same time, I don't care one way or the other. Knowing for a fact one way or another is not going to change my outlook on life, nor will it change how I live. Knowing the origin of the Universe and Man will not change how I live or act. I do not actively seek knowledge in matters such as these because I do not find them important to me. I'm more concerned with living my life, day by day, than I am with knowing if there is a God or not. My philosophy, in a nutshell, is "I'll let you believe what you want if you won't try to get me to believe it, too."

When I know, for a fact, that a God does or does not exist, I'll make my decision from there whether or not I want to believe in Him. Right now, since I do not know, I am not sure one way or another. I have no religion, and I don't care to have one. ;)

Offline Vulcan

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« Reply #476 on: May 28, 2006, 02:42:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
vulcan... I respect your beliefs but submit that they are only faith based beliefs.... you can't be sure that something does not exist based on lack of knowledge available to you unless you are doing it based on faith.   At times in history allmost everything was impossible to understand.    

It is just as easy to say that no scientific theiory is possible for creation.   Does that mean that nothing exists?

Why is it more fantasical to think that god was eternal than to think that there has allways been matter?

Like I said tho... you are welcome to your belief.   Many so called scientists did not believe that the atom existed either.

lazs


Ermmm well actually theres plenty of proof god doesn't exist. For a start most mythologies including the bible have factual holes you could drive a bus through (queue christians and 'you can't take it literally' theme). Then theres the question of said superbeing existing in non-existance (ie before the universe existed).

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #477 on: May 28, 2006, 02:50:52 PM »
not the point....the holes in the easter bunny myth do not mean that bunnies do not exist.

To believe that matter allways was is pretty far fetched too... where did it come from?  something created...  to believe that their allways way matter is just as much a stretch.... a leap of faith as to say that said eternal matter was a being.

I got no problem with texaces well thought out beliefs.... I have shared them myself in the past.   If it were not for taking a leap of faith I would still think exactly as he does.

lazs

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #478 on: May 28, 2006, 03:02:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vulcan
Ermmm well actually theres plenty of proof god doesn't exist. For a start most mythologies including the bible have factual holes you could drive a bus through


Isn't that just proof that the mythologies are wrong?  Maybe God is a scientist.
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Offline Arlo

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Atheism and the USA, followup
« Reply #479 on: May 28, 2006, 04:08:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vulcan
If god exists may he strike me down...

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nope, still here, I win.

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If God doesn't exist, may a meteor fall on me in the next 3 milliseconds.
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I'll give it another minute.
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Nope ... guess it's a tie. :D


Now ... back to a logical discussion. :aok

You're really no different than a religious fundamentalist. You've just come to a different conclusion. You "know without a doubt" what requires faith to believe (existance and non-existance two sides of the same coin). And you can't even prove ... without a doubt ... otherwise. Seems to be the burr under your saddle in this discussion is just my recognizing it. I'm sure my telling you you're not different from any other flavor of "faithful" doesn't sit well, but sorry .... it's seems quite obvious.

You're faithful to your belief that God doesn't exist. Why be petulant about others recognizing your belief? :D