Author Topic: Ram model needs changing (Read 5043 times)

bozon · « **Reply #15 on:** June 04, 2006, 01:11:58 AM »

AH ram model is a compromise one has to learn to live with.

A plane on his owner FE is always a little forward of where it looks to everyone else. In addition, AH does extrapulation of plane movement according to the last data recieved (I think HT said it is second order, meaning constant acceleration).

The result of which is:
1. if you want someone to ram you, you need to fly close and infront of his nose - not into him. This means that in scissors rams almost always only one FE will detect a collision.

2. Jinks jerks and quicks direction of movement in your plane show on your FE before they show on every body elses. Then the net is updated and your shdow plane on the net catches up with your FE. This means that on HO, when you pull hard and out of the way in the last second, your "internet shadow" plane will still be going forward for a split second on every body elses FE - and ram the other guy.

The latter is also the reason that 190s look like flopping fish. They roll and jink quicker than the net can respond. The delay between packets means that the extrapulation is off (not a constant acceleration) and the plane jumps to its new position/orientation.

If I understand it correctly that is...
Bozon

Strykar1 · « **Reply #16 on:** June 04, 2006, 01:17:39 AM »

Well the way I understand it. Is that with HO's or even someone running into your tail Net lag still plays a major part of the Ram Model.

Even when you set up a situation where both of you know the ram is going to happen, IE the HO. Even a distance of a single yard will make the difference in who gets the collision.

So if You and your Target are both HO'ing, and your FE reports that your 50 yards away, and his reports 51 yards away, You are the one to get the Colide message. At least that is my understanding but Im just a newb just passing my 3rd month on here. and I could be totally off base. But I think thats how it works.

So.... If you Try to avoid a collision, And the other person pulls up into you, chances are, He seen you as free and clear.. But your FE decided otherwise.

Chalenge · « **Reply #17 on:** June 04, 2006, 01:26:11 AM »

Hoarach your connection looked clean to me. Nice meeting you by the way.

What was obvious was how our guys were going about the headon and that is what was causing you trouble. I was listening to it all and know what they were doing. They just wanted you dead end of story. Once you turn ho they wont turn until you explode or they beam into the tower so you can expect the ram if you dont pull off.

I dont believe the ram model is broken.

Roscoroo · « **Reply #18 on:** June 04, 2006, 01:32:40 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Chalenge

I dont believe the ram model is broken.

its not totally broken .. its just wrong .. its either a hardware/ping/routor/packet
kinda thing .

hubsonfire · « **Reply #19 on:** June 04, 2006, 01:50:28 AM »

There are a few instances where someone can induce a collision, but saying the system currently in place is broken is misleading. Unless everybody has fiber, and communications technology makes a lightyear leap forward, having a game tell you when 2 people are occupying the same space at the same point in time on someone's FE is the best anyone can hope for.

If anyone has a better solution, let's see it.

Waffle · « **Reply #20 on:** June 04, 2006, 02:24:37 AM »

Funny thing is:

"I was trying to avoid it and each time A ZEKE PULLED INTO ME for the ram. What happens, zekes fly off like nothing happened and I died."

" had a Spit16 PULL UP INTO my D-Hog last week and take me out and he flew away unscathed."

"Point in fact he swooped down in a P-47 and RAMMED ME from behind yet I was default climbing out?"

Key thing being - all of the eny planes that "hit" you, didn't see the hit....you saw the collision happen and shoud take penalty for it.

HT posted a very nice thread explaining it using the basis of your plane is actually towing a "target". And if you run into "someones "target" or they hit your your - then a collision is detected....If both "targets" hit each other - then both parties take damage. Do a search for it.

BigR · « **Reply #21 on:** June 04, 2006, 02:43:39 AM »

We had a great system 10 years ago in AW. Hardly anyone complained about it.

killnu · « **Reply #22 on:** June 04, 2006, 07:59:25 AM »

ok, maybe if i type slower

you guys will be able to read it...

just last night, la5n collided with me, I got the "xxx has collided with you"....he got the "you have collided"...he didnt fire. I lost an engine, he lost nothing.

he said sorry on 200 that he pulled up and i was "just there"...he didnt have time to pull trigger.

Its not the first time this has happened to me. I will admit, its not every time...but it has happened more frequently than I like

this was not a HO pass, he was traveling at 90 degree angle to me...i was chasing somebody and he was doing evasives from somebody else.

Ive had it happen when going HO though...his guns dont show any muzzle bursts...so I can only guess he was firing as he was passing thru me and I couldnt see it, but they at times take no damage.

Ive had people ask me if I took damage from the collision...when I never got a collision message. They got the "KillnU has collided with you" and I get no message what so ever and never appear to collide with them on my end.

crims · « **Reply #23 on:** June 04, 2006, 08:33:11 AM »

Why Can't Both Planes Die. I would be mad from the RAM but not as Mad if I knew he died also.

Crims

479th Raiders FG

bj229r · « **Reply #24 on:** June 04, 2006, 08:40:05 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Souless
i WAS ON DEFAULT CLIMB went to get a soda came back and was toppling to ground the message said bj2229 u have collided with. Point in fact he swooped down in a P-47 and rammed me from behind yet i was default climbing out?
We both chuclked about it however i cant see how i collided with him when he dived on me and was afk.,
He took no damage and i was a smoldering torch.
I cant figure this collision model at all

LOL I remember that, I swooped in about 550 and couldn't quite pull up...I was thinking ya scratched my wing or somethin:)

Boxboy · « **Reply #25 on:** June 04, 2006, 09:51:56 AM »

Just turn collisions OFF problem solved. You get some new ones that you won't like tho

whels · « **Reply #26 on:** June 04, 2006, 10:42:50 AM »

the collision model is broke and has been for while.

ive personally have seen/had happen the following.

plane pass to 1 of my plane, lose opposite side wing. no one fired.
plane visually passed missing me on MY FE.

ive passed right through middle of buffs and i take no damage, they blow up.

enemy fighter and belly to belly as we pass, visually missing as we pull opposite directions and i take damage from collision.

just many instances of enemy plane visually passing me clear of me
and i take collision damage.

but ive said all this before and been called a liar by HT so, it never will be looked into or fixed since HE says its fine and wont be changed.

no matter what we put forth.

Tumor · « **Reply #27 on:** June 04, 2006, 11:05:44 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by DoKGonZo
But yeah ... it's getting absurd out there.

Yep... but the AH cod's say that's as good as it gets.

Tumor

DoKGonZo · « **Reply #28 on:** June 04, 2006, 11:27:43 AM »

Turning off collisions with the current ez-mode HO shots and HT's art department will need to change the logo to use a Medievil font as the game will descend into perpetual jousting.

I agree the network is probably the problem, but I'm pretty firmly convinced from observation that at least some of the Gamers have learned how to optimize the collision model and/or network impact on it.

Mutual destruction collisions will no doubt result in more whines as folks who've been getting away with inducing collisions would have to pay for it. The end result, though, would be that everyone would have to be at least a little careful about not running into each other. Which may actually help the HO'ing situation.

And those who subscribe to the entropy theory may simply point out that if the n00b gamers have learned to induce collisions then the oldsters should too.

hubsonfire · « **Reply #29 on:** June 04, 2006, 11:33:46 AM »

lf the ram model is so obviously broken, and so many of you know it, how about some film for the rest of us who remain skeptical?

I know this is a hot topic, but after all the stuff that's been posted, and how HT's explained it, it seems to work exactly as it's supposed to, and I've yet to personally see film showing a definitive problem.