Idea discussed at the con.

[TexMurphy]

Kev your right the term realistic is miss used.

I should have used "less gamey tactic".

Flying NOE with a bomber wing into a base where there is a fight between 0k and 5k is a gamey tactic which is used just out of lazyness.

NOE is a good and non gamey tactic for the situation you describe where a wing of heavily armed planes (buffs, mossies, 110s, Jugs, ect) come in and quickly hit the town and VH inorder to create a quick take.

Yes 2 min of extra spawning time on VH is a problem, but you can just hit the VH right away. This is actually the tactic I do prefere because if you spend time working on the town BEFORE you take down the VH they might still crawl out.

So I really dont see the problem. Hit VH, hit town, de-ack, have goon come in.

Unfortunatly in the MA of gamey hoard base takes we dont see this tactic used much more. What we do see is 50 planes comming in on the same base smashing their bombs into every building including Old McDonalds farm and then they spend 30 min wondering where the goon is. Alternativly 1 plane that runs from own base to enemy base porking and smashing him self into the ground inorder to pork more stuff per time unit.

Personally Id like to see this timer combined with scoore for attack and bomber only beeing rewarded on landing the sortie.

Tex

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Simaril
I gather that HT's thinking most about the time limit, with delayed application of damage. Earlier in thread he also said 30 secs seemed too short a delay.


It occurs to me that at a conservative 240 mph ground speed, an attacker woudl cover 2 miles in 30 seconds, and 8 miles in 2 minutes (his inital thought).

Do we really need to make attackers get that far away from target for damage to count? With a stated goal of preventing suicide attacks -- which to me means very quick deaths after damage -- that much delay seems excessive.

As others have said, 15-30 secs ought to be plenty and woudl be much less disruptive to the flow of the game.

To stop the 'pure' pork and auger guy who 9/10 times follows his ord right in, you only need 5 secs.

[rabbidrabbit]

99% of the pork and auger crowd I see are gunners with typhies and lala's who dive in from 5k and pork until they die, rinse and repeat.  Bomb delays have no effect on them at all.  Not really solving the problem.

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
99% of the pork and auger crowd I see are gunners with typhies and lala's who dive in from 5k and pork until they die, rinse and repeat.  Bomb delays have no effect on them at all.  Not really solving the problem.

Wouldn't agree that's pork/auger, thats pork get shot down.
Problem with that is related to poor field defences, not timers or anything else.

For me pork/auger is the guy who dives in from a great alt, releases his ord, then follows it right into the ground.
See a lot of P-38s doing it, probably misjugded compression.

[straffo]

Originally posted by TexMurphy
I should have used "less gamey tactic".

If it was to fight gamey trick it should also adress : hording,CV parked on shore (aka floating ack-ack),vulch session,shade account,spawn camping  and all that generate whine on this BBS

[Dace]

Originally posted by Kev367th
Easy one Dace -
If you are dead within the 2 mins, you just wasted your time. Bombs will land, timer will start, if you get killed, your bombs essentially do nothing.

Ya ..that sux.

[rabbidrabbit]

Originally posted by Kev367th
Wouldn't agree that's pork/auger, thats pork get shot down.
Problem with that is related to poor field defences, not timers or anything else.

For me pork/auger is the guy who dives in from a great alt, releases his ord, then follows it right into the ground.
See a lot of P-38s doing it, probably misjugded compression.

Thats pretty much my point.

So newbs and sometimes others misjudge on occasion and compress.  Whenyou compress you will have a lot of trouble hitting anything anyway.  Its not a systemic exploit.  I have not seen people repeatedly bomb and augur much at all  OTOH, dive bombing and sucidal heavy bombers as well as pork until die crowd who game the game are.

[NoBaddy]

Originally posted by Dace
I'm at 25k in buffs,.. I salvo all my bombs just as a couple of 163s start hitting me. I am ded BEFORE my bombs hit the ground. What now?

Nothing. It shouldn't impact high alt, level bombers at all.

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by NoBaddy
Nothing. It shouldn't impact high alt, level bombers at all.

Of course it will.
If you get jumped and killed before the timer is up your bombs are pointless.

Plus your earlier argument for 2 mins simulating "delayed aciton" fuzes  is flawed.
Even if delayed action bombs were dropped, they would still go off whether or not the plane dropping them was alive or not.

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
Thats pretty much my point.

So newbs and sometimes others misjudge on occasion and compress.  Whenyou compress you will have a lot of trouble hitting anything anyway.  Its not a systemic exploit.  I have not seen people repeatedly bomb and augur much at all  OTOH, dive bombing and sucidal heavy bombers as well as pork until die crowd who game the game are.

Suicidal heavy buffs are easily fixed with the bomb from F6 view ONLY.
Not just strats that suffer from them, GV's AND CV's do also.

As for pork until die -
Well in that case the problem is poor field defences, all we need is heavier and more field guns.

Just seems as though HT is trying for a quick/nasty 'fix' rather than a well thought out all round strategy.

Frankly if it meant waiting some time for a proper solution I'd rather do that than the current heavily flawed proposal.

[rabbidrabbit]

Originally posted by Kev367th
Suicidal heavy buffs are easily fixed with the bomb from F6 view ONLY.
Not just strats that suffer from them, GV's AND CV's do also.

As for pork until die -
Well in that case the problem is poor field defences, all we need is heavier and more field guns.

Just seems as though HT is trying for a quick/nasty 'fix' rather than a well thought out all round strategy.

Frankly if it meant waiting some time for a proper solution I'd rather do that than the current heavily flawed proposal.

I agree, a few fixes like those pointed out here would go a long way towards improving what have been long considered gamey exploits by most players.

[NoBaddy]

Originally posted by Kev367th
Of course it will.
If you get jumped and killed before the timer is up your bombs are pointless.

Plus your earlier argument for 2 mins simulating "delayed aciton" fuzes  is flawed.
Even if delayed action bombs were dropped, they would still go off whether or not the plane dropping them was alive or not.

Geez Kev...try reading the thread. It has been stated, more than once, in this thread that HT plans for this to not impact level bombers. My guess (and it is just that) is that HT would make so that anyone dropping from the F6 view would not be affected.

The delayed action fuse thing was not an "argument" it was something HT and I spoke about as an alternative to reducing downtime.

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by NoBaddy
Geez Kev...try reading the thread. It has been stated, more than once, in this thread that HT plans for this to not impact level bombers. My guess (and it is just that) is that HT would make so that anyone dropping from the F6 view would not be affected.

The delayed action fuse thing was not an "argument" it was something HT and I spoke about as an alternative to reducing downtime.

Well I checked HT posts -

None of them mentions it will not affect level buffs, only yours.
If this is the case whats to stop a low alt buff coming over the field and dropping F6 view anyway.
You only have be high enough for your drones to attach and your high enough to use F6 without fear of blowing yourself up.
So instead of pork/auger jabos, you get mass porking buffs.

In fact his details are rather sketchy to be honest.

Maybe a more detailed post from HT would help us, at the moment we are assuming a lot of the details.

I'll give you an example -
Quite possible to come into a field low level with Lancs, pop up last moment, quick calibration, drop eggs from the F6 view and take out all FHs on a med field 1 pass, still make it out with 1 or 2 buffs 95% of the time.

Problem isn't pork/auger its FIELD DEFENSES, they are woefully inadequate.

[Simaril]

Since HT is talking about more than 15 secs, he's thinking about more than just suicide porkers. It would appear that he wants to discourage suicidal attacks in general. Remember, he opened the thread saying he'd done detailed thinking about this issue even before posting.



So it seems to me that HiTech may specifically addressing low-survivable strat attacks for gameplay reasons alone -- and that trumps any complaints of "It's not fair to the porkers to ignore suicide fighters", etc.




So some thoughts about implementation of whatever idea HT adopts.


--- Jack-in-the-box hangars (down, but back up if attacker dies) stink.

--- Need to let the attacker know the timer has started -- so further ord can be called off, and to give sense of predictability. Maybe a system message like "Vehicle Hangar Destruction Timer Started".

--- IMPORTANTLY: the defenders do NOT need to know that the destruction threshold has been crossed. They wont be able to tell right off if it was a miss, if there wasnt enough damage, or what. That alone should cut down on hordes upping during the delay, whcih would be a major problem if visible notification was given.

--- When timer successfully expires, damage ought to apply to everything in the balst zone - -so if bad guys were upping at the time, they'd be kills

[gsharp]

From a primarily base taker point of view what I would like to see is:

1. Increase Field ack hardness/number.  Make a small field have the defense of a CV group.
2. Program Random Dud bombs.  This forces people to not min/max bomb drops.  
3. Revert to the old bombsite (the one that took skill)
4. Increase the required troops from 10 to 20.
5. Put some non-puffy ack in towns.  
6. Arange the field buildings so that it makes more sense to carpet bomb a strip than to pinpoint bomb hangers.  Maybe more but softer strat targets.
7. Runway damage would be nice.  Have it take alot of ord but make the runway unusable for 20 mins.  

Just dont put in the proposed system.