Idea discussed at the con.

[Kev367th]

Ah CC.

So basically GV's still remain subject to the same gamey drop eggs and auger crowd then.

I know I put it ironically, but hopefully you see my point.

I would suggest a 'timer' only has to be 5-10 secs to stop the true pork/auger guy.
As for guys who stay around a field to continue porking - More acks

Any thoughts on making certain objects damagable only by the correct weapon?

[Hades55]

Thats not the right way of thinking.

The right way who also ads to game play and More War fun is.....

Put more Maned Ack to protect the targets, not only 37s,

but Maned 20mms to protect the hangars.

4 20mms around every hangar, in every corner, would be nice.

Ok the good fighter pilots would kill them again, but someone would

have to swim between hellfire to kill them. More war, more fun

( i love to swim between the wave of fire (tracers) hunting me in the
twightlight of the sunset

( warcoholic ?

[Furious]

So, hitting the building sets it on fire.  Your survival is then determing how well the fire fighters work.  Kinda like your survival lowers their moral and therefore firefighting abilities.

...that's pretty cool.

maybe the intial bomb does X damage and the fire does Y damage/sec of survival?

[FiLtH]

"As to hardening targets, That would have absoulutly 0 imapct on the suicide behavior, It would just make people have to rinse and repeate more often."    HiTech



   Not if it required multiple bombers to do it.   Or 20 jabos to kill a hanger. When you get up in numbers like that, it takes coordination. The MA is gamey enough as it is. Ever think of possibly making a second area that is the same setup as the MA, but has different hardness, fuel burn, lethality and other settings?

[Vudak]

Originally posted by hitech

As to Widewings Idea, Ill just comment on the perk bombs,

If you don't have any perks, how are you ever supoosed to take bombs in a bomber to get perks?

I read it as you could take other bombs but not the heaviest w/o a perk.

Thanks for the comments though.

[cav58d]

Hitech...Your still not addressing what happens to people with "the right attitude" who happen to against his power, die after a bomb drop?  Is this players actions to be penalized or just written off?  Because if so, I really only see this "fix" as taking away more damage from players with "the right attitude" who so happened to die because of reasons out of his control, opposed to the suicide guys....

And how is the smoke timer going to work with the VH?  The crew I fly with ALWAYS goes after VH first...Without question, the VH has to be down to properly attack an airfield...So how do you stop 20 LTARS rolling out flaks in the 2 minute limbo?

[EagleDNY]

Originally posted by hitech

And it in no way addresses the issue/behavior we are trying to change.

As to hardening targets, That would have absoulutly 0 imapct on the suicide behavior, It would just make people have to rinse and repeate more often.


HiTech

HT,
I have to disagree with you here - as an unrepentent porker myself, I can tell you that hardening the targets and/or reducing the strats downtimes would definitely have an effect.  

If I need 6K of bombs to do in 2 ord bunkers, that limits my choice of aircraft considerably, and gives the defense a shot at me.  If I have to come in with a heavy 110 or a P47N loaded to the gills with ordnance to get the job done, I am a lot easier to intercept than I am in a LA7 or Tiffie diving in clean at 450 kts.  Maybe I have to do it in level bombers and fight my way in, or maybe I need to put up a heavy 110 mission to take losses on the way to target into account.  I think the ord-porking suicide behavior stops because it doesn't work so well anymore - your suicide LA7 just uses up some cannon and dies to no effect.  

If I take out the troops and know they are down for only for 15 or 30 minutes, then I'm forced to come back (and the defense knows this) - they can put up a defense, and I don't have the luxury of the next 1:30-1:45 to cruise into the enemy backfield, pork the troops, and disrupt the entire supply line a sector or two back from the lines.  

Before you dismiss the idea, consider giving it a try for a week or two and see the effects on gameplay.  These changes won't stop legitimate base-suppression missions, but they might lessen the effect of the lone suicide porker on the game.

EagleDNY
$.02

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by EagleDNY
HT,
I have to disagree with you here - as an unrepentent porker myself, I can tell you that hardening the targets and/or reducing the strats downtimes would definitely have an effect.  

If I need 6K of bombs to do in 2 ord bunkers, that limits my choice of aircraft considerably, and gives the defense a shot at me.  If I have to come in with a heavy 110 or a P47N loaded to the gills with ordnance to get the job done, I am a lot easier to intercept than I am in a LA7 or Tiffie diving in clean at 450 kts.  Maybe I have to do it in level bombers and fight my way in, or maybe I need to put up a heavy 110 mission to take losses on the way to target into account.  I think the ord-porking suicide behavior stops because it doesn't work so well anymore - your suicide LA7 just uses up some cannon and dies to no effect.  

If I take out the troops and know they are down for only for 15 or 30 minutes, then I'm forced to come back (and the defense knows this) - they can put up a defense, and I don't have the luxury of the next 1:30-1:45 to cruise into the enemy backfield, pork the troops, and disrupt the entire supply line a sector or two back from the lines.  

Before you dismiss the idea, consider giving it a try for a week or two and see the effects on gameplay.  These changes won't stop legitimate base-suppression missions, but they might lessen the effect of the lone suicide porker on the game.

EagleDNY
$.02

Yup my ponit exactly.

Hardening them AND making them only damagable by the correct weapon, not sure I'd mess with downtime considering you can resup, even if you have to start a base or two back.

The correct weapon for the job would fix many other gamey probs also, in particular CV's getting straffed to death.

Although I would change one thing - The base that has 163's should ALWAYS have troops available if it still belongs to the home country. That at least gives them a chance to retake a base or resup with the rest all porked, and another good reason to defend it.

[Bronk]

HMM
Base the rebuild time on the amount of ord dropped.
Lemme try to explain.
3000 lbs to take down a hanger.
1st guy comes in makes a good drop and hits with 1000 lbs .  Damage is added and rebuild time.
2nd guy goes in to fast and compresses 1000 lbs hit but sadly augers.
Damage is added but rebuild time is not.
3rd guy goes in makes a good drop  with 1000 lbs . Damage and rebuild time is added.

Net result hanger goes down  but  rebuild time is 2/3 as long.
This can be scaled to amount of ords used. Different bomb sise = different time on rebuild clock.
1000 lbs on a 3000 lb target = 1/3 of the rebuild time
500 lbs on same = 1/6 of the rebuild time
and so on.

So if the pork auger dweeb does all the damage hanger doesn't go down.
If a team effort was made and 2 out of 3 survive mission is not a complete loss.

 This may need to be tweaked for CV's though.
 Might need to worked for CV take no damage if the auger occurs.

Bronk

[Kev367th]

As a follow on to my "correct weapon" suggestion -

Here's my thoughts -

acks (fields) - destroyable by all weapons.
Hangers - Rockets and bombs only, no more strafing down FH/BH/VH.
Troops - MG/cannons little effect, rockets/bombs max effect.
Ord - MG/Cannons no effect, rockets little effect, bombs max effect

CV's -
Main and 5" guns - MG/Cannons/rockets no effect, bombs max effect
acks - all weapons
ships themselves - rockets/bombs only.

Put this together with -
increased heavier calibre field ack
increased strat hardness

I think would go a long way, OK its not going to stop the pure pork/auger guys, but IMO they are very very rare. It's the pork and hang around porking guy you see the overwhelming majority of the time.

As a historical comparison - the 367th attacked an airfield and lost 5 out of 12 P-38s to ground defences, in AH2 youd be able to deack even a large field with less, if any losses.

[Iceman24]

in all fairness, if you can't get rid of your ord and then live for another 30 seconds or a minute then you need to go find something else to do. HiTech's not trying to hurt any of the level bombers or anything like that, all he's trying to do is put in place some type of reward system for dropping ord. and actually surviving. Its not like he's even saying you have to make it home or live for another 10 minutes, it's a small time, anything under 2-3 minutes shouldn't be a problem a all... heck even if I'm in a C-hog it still takes a good minute or so to shoot down 3 B24's. It is just retarted to think that you cannot use all that E you have to simply extend away from the target for 30 seconds or 2 minutes, whatever the time is. The typicall suicide porker will come in around 10-15k dive straight down on the VH cause they have no clue how to line up correctly and release when they see the distance marker read about D800 or so then try and pull up... sometimes they do, sometimes they don't make it. If I up a heavy 38L, and the people that are manning the ack guns are all normal shots, no zazens around, then I can usually drop the VH with 2x1000lbers, and about 5-8rockets, then I can whipe out all the field ack with about 20 cannon rounds tops, it only take 1-2 20mm's to kill a field gun, then use my .50 cals and remaining rockets / 20mm's to destroy the troops and or fuel/ammo, I do it all the time just messing around trying to pad my attack ranks.... For level buffs, this will implement the same thing, even if your level at 15k and your planning on doing a regular F6 mode drop, now if you have a fighter on you, you have to decide whats important, your AC/crew or dropping your ord.... the more and more i think about it I really like this idea. Only problem I have with it, Murdr addressed and HT responded in a post and that was about the smoke. The main whine I keep hearing is about the time limit, and its just silly to even think that living for an extra 30 seconds or whatever will be that much harder, if it is then this new timer is most likely being implemented because of your suicide pork flying style.

[Simaril]

Originally posted by hitech
....snip.....


The one decent idea in this thread is the smoking buildings before being destroyed, the only issue I have with that idea is the time it takes to implement it.


HiTech

HT,

I'm a little concerned with the smoke idea because it might give too much info to the opponents.

If the "met critical damage" message was only available to the attackers there might be fewer unanticipated gameplay effects, I'd think.

Simaril

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Iceman24
in all fairness, if you can't get rid of your ord and then live for another 30 seconds or a minute then you need to go find something else to do. HiTech's not trying to hurt any of the level bombers or anything like that, all he's trying to do is put in place some type of reward system for dropping ord. and actually surviving. Its not like he's even saying you have to make it home or live for another 10 minutes, it's a small time, anything under 2-3 minutes shouldn't be a problem a all... heck even if I'm in a C-hog it still takes a good minute or so to shoot down 3 B24's. It is just retarted to think that you cannot use all that E you have to simply extend away from the target for 30 seconds or 2 minutes, whatever the time is. The typicall suicide porker will come in around 10-15k dive straight down on the VH cause they have no clue how to line up correctly and release when they see the distance marker read about D800 or so then try and pull up... sometimes they do, sometimes they don't make it. If I up a heavy 38L, and the people that are manning the ack guns are all normal shots, no zazens around, then I can usually drop the VH with 2x1000lbers, and about 5-8rockets, then I can whipe out all the field ack with about 20 cannon rounds tops, it only take 1-2 20mm's to kill a field gun, then use my .50 cals and remaining rockets / 20mm's to destroy the troops and or fuel/ammo, I do it all the time just messing around trying to pad my attack ranks.... For level buffs, this will implement the same thing, even if your level at 15k and your planning on doing a regular F6 mode drop, now if you have a fighter on you, you have to decide whats important, your AC/crew or dropping your ord.... the more and more i think about it I really like this idea. Only problem I have with it, Murdr addressed and HT responded in a post and that was about the smoke. The main whine I keep hearing is about the time limit, and its just silly to even think that living for an extra 30 seconds or whatever will be that much harder, if it is then this new timer is most likely being implemented because of your suicide pork flying style.

Of course get ready for the all the whines on the BB about 'extending/running' porkers.

Half the time on the BB is spent berating players for extending, then a system may be implemented that actually encourages it.

Well get ready for lots of Tiffies, La7s, D9's, Ponys diving in high, porking a field then 'extending', and don't start whining about it.

Only diff it will make to me for porking - instead of a Tiffy I'll take a fully loaded Pony. Can still take down troops at at least 2 fields, and run fast enough to get away.

Half the fun of porking was hanging around after to see if you could get some kills, looks like best option will be to run now.

Tactic -
Small field - 1 guy: Troops/ord down 1 pass then run.
Medium field - 2 guys: Troops/ord down 1 pass then run.
Large field - 3 guys: Troops/ord down 1 pass then run.

Or if just 1 guy -
Any field - Troops down 1 pass then run.

We will need a visual cue so we can tell if we got a good drop or not though, plus perhaps a countdown timer in the message bar.

[BlauK]

Maybe making it impossible to dive bomb with heavy buffs which were supposed to only do level bombing could help with that suicide dive porking?

Another possibility might be to increase the time (=altitude) required for bombs' fuses to activate in level bombers... or generally bombs inside the fuselages.

I assume that the suicide porking is not such a big problem with dive bombers which carry only a few bombs.. or is it?

[Kev367th]

Hi-tech

Re-read your original premise:

How about this, just a slight change to your original post -

Difference - Strats and buildings go down right away as per current setup, no delay, does away with need for extra visual cues and this method uses existing visual cues.

a) If you die within 5-10 secs strat immediately rebuilds (stops the true pork/auger guys)

b) If you die within 2 mins the rebuild time is half so for a FH for example
It goes down: normal rebuild time = 15 mins
You die within 2 mins (lets say 1 min) = 15 - 1 (time you been alive) / 2 = 7 mins till rebuild. Attackers and defenders still get the visual cue of the hanger stops smoking to signal it will be up in less than 5 mins.

Doesn't penalise guys who try to do it the right way and get hit by ack or jumped from above.