Author Topic: Now even Condolezza Rice has called for a cease-fire  (Read 2857 times)

Offline takeda

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 514
Now even Condolezza Rice has called for a cease-fire
« Reply #60 on: July 30, 2006, 04:28:37 PM »
If israelis were serbs, the Chinese embassy in Tel-Aviv would be rubble by now.

Offline Elfie

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6142
Now even Condolezza Rice has called for a cease-fire
« Reply #61 on: July 30, 2006, 04:31:58 PM »
Quote
The Israelis are miscalculating though; they're losing more support every time they have incidents like the latest one.


I dont think they miscalculated at all. Israel and the IDF have made the harsh choices knowing full well the the outcry that would follow civilian deaths. Those harsh choices are what will (hopefully) make Israeli citizens safer in the future.

I agree with the rest of your post, spot on imo.
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Now even Condolezza Rice has called for a cease-fire
« Reply #62 on: July 30, 2006, 04:44:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sparks
The question about the activity of the Lebanese army is a valid one Toad but to be honest no-one has shown me any evidence that there actually is a viable Lebanese army.  .
[/b]

Well, they think they have an army. It's about 70,000 strong.

http://www.lebarmy.gov.lb/English/GroundForce.asp

Ground forces

 5 Regional Commands
 11 Mechanized brigades
 1 Republican Guard brigade
 1 Commando regiment
 5 Special Forces regiments
 1 Airborne regiment
 1 Navy Commando regiment
 2 Artillery regiments




Quote
We are not talking about shoulder mounted stuff fired out of building windows and doorways.  These things are big and take time to set up.


They mostly have been using Katyusha rockets. These can be fired from truck mounted batteries, small ground batteries or even singly from a pipe or rail. They only take minutes to set up. Check out the 6 rail Romanian launcher in front of the truck mounted battery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:APR-40-beyt-hatotchan-2.jpg

More on Hez rockets

Hizbollah's Iranian Rocket Force
« Last Edit: July 30, 2006, 04:56:47 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Sparks

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 804
Now even Condolezza Rice has called for a cease-fire
« Reply #63 on: July 30, 2006, 07:27:08 PM »
Interesting Toad, thanks :aok

Interesting in the mission statement they are both anti-terrorist and anti-Israel.  So now they have a three way battle if they choose to get involved.  Certainly the Lebanese army at this point have not carried out their stated aim.  Although I still don't think they are a functional fighting force capable of taking on the IDF they certainly should have been more in control in the south of their own country.

Looking at the rockets - even the 6 rail one is no small peice of hardware. Not stuff you would be setting up in buildings or transporting in cars.

Looking at the figures quoted they say they believe Iran shipped 10,000 of these pigs to hezbollah !! Where the F*** do you hide 10,000 9ft X 8in rockets ??:huh  Under the bed ??????

Elfie, I understand what you are saying but I will never accept that it is right to pull the trigger knowing you will kill innocents when other options exist.  We CANNOT justify our behaviour by using the behaviour of barbaric stone-age maniacs as the measuring stick.  Certainly if we knew in a building was a terrorist with his finger on the trigger of a nuke that would kill hundreds of thousands and we knew civilians would be killed in the process of stopping it well war always has it's costs in lives.  But his isn't the case.  My point about the inaccuracy of the Hezbollah rockets is that Israel is not in immenent danger of large scale destruction.  
To say the risk of one Israeli life lost justifies the loss of hundreds of Lebanese lives is ranking our lives higher than theirs and to me a civilian is a civilian in both countries.  We should not discriminate or lessen the loss of either and we should look to limit the loss of both.
Yes the loss of Israeli lives HAS to stop. But the price should not be the loss of hundreds of Arab lives and we should not try to justify our actions and lessen the value of innocent Lebanese civilians by saying it's Hezbollah fault.  It doesn't matter whose fault it is that they are in the line of fire; when you pull the trigger that will kill them you should view them same as if they were your own countrymen and if you wouldn't kill your own then you shouldn't pull the trigger. A civilian is just that - they are the same as you and I.

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Now even Condolezza Rice has called for a cease-fire
« Reply #64 on: July 30, 2006, 07:33:01 PM »
Sparks, I think a single Katyusha can be fired from a simple rail or pipe. Read somewhere that it only takes a few minutes to set up. Fire and forget, leave the rail/pipe and beat feet.

I doubt they'll ever stop all of those if that is true.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Donzo

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2355
      • http://www.bops.us
Now even Condolezza Rice has called for a cease-fire
« Reply #65 on: July 30, 2006, 07:48:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sparks
Elfie, I understand what you are saying but I will never accept that it is right to pull the trigger knowing you will kill innocents when other options exist.  We CANNOT justify our behaviour by using the behaviour of barbaric stone-age maniacs as the measuring stick.  Certainly if we knew in a building was a terrorist with his finger on the trigger of a nuke that would kill hundreds of thousands and we knew civilians would be killed in the process of stopping it well war always has it's costs in lives.  But his isn't the case.  My point about the inaccuracy of the Hezbollah rockets is that Israel is not in immenent danger of large scale destruction.  
To say the risk of one Israeli life lost justifies the loss of hundreds of Lebanese lives is ranking our lives higher than theirs and to me a civilian is a civilian in both countries.  We should not discriminate or lessen the loss of either and we should look to limit the loss of both.
Yes the loss of Israeli lives HAS to stop. But the price should not be the loss of hundreds of Arab lives and we should not try to justify our actions and lessen the value of innocent Lebanese civilians by saying it's Hezbollah fault.  It doesn't matter whose fault it is that they are in the line of fire; when you pull the trigger that will kill them you should view them same as if they were your own countrymen and if you wouldn't kill your own then you shouldn't pull the trigger. A civilian is just that - they are the same as you and I.


This seems to be a running theme in threads about this topic.
So I ask you, what would you have Israel do about the situation?  
Sit back and accept that SOME of their people will be maimed or killed by rockets?  
Sit back and hope that the UN drafts a resolution telling Hez to stop? (Oh, this should work)
Or maybe they should bomb open fields?
Or how about the just nuke themselves?  That should end the violence.  Honestly, crying about the civilians that are caught in the crossfire (and they are "caught" because Hez wants them "caught" in the crossfire) does nothing.  
Try offering a solution.  What should Israel do?

While understand your points about civilians being needlessly killed, I also understand that Israel doesn't have many options in this situation.
Throughout history they have done what was asked of them and what has it gotten them?  I'll tell you, nutcases like Hez that are hellbent on the destruction of Israel right on their border.

Offline Sparks

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 804
Now even Condolezza Rice has called for a cease-fire
« Reply #66 on: July 30, 2006, 08:03:45 PM »
Donzo - read back through the thread.  I have already stated that my thought on the best option is a large scale special forces multinational operation with full remit to engage with full force.

The problem with your attitude is you put the value of the life of an innocent Israeli civilian above the life of an innocent arab civilian.  i.e It's ok for innocent arabs to die if it stops innocent Israelis dying. Funnily enough your average middle class arab thinks that is a tad racist.

But the un-spoken view of course is that there is no such thing as an innocent arab .....

Anyway - I have to go to work.

Offline BTW

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1107
Now even Condolezza Rice has called for a cease-fire
« Reply #67 on: July 30, 2006, 08:05:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Donzo
This seems to be a running theme in threads about this topic.
So I ask you, what would you have Israel do about the situation?  
Sit back and accept that SOME of their people will be maimed or killed by rockets?  
Sit back and hope that the UN drafts a resolution telling Hez to stop? (Oh, this should work)
Or maybe they should bomb open fields?
Or how about the just nuke themselves?  That should end the violence.  Honestly, crying about the civilians that are caught in the crossfire (and they are "caught" because Hez wants them "caught" in the crossfire) does nothing.  
Try offering a solution.  What should Israel do?

While understand your points about civilians being needlessly killed, I also understand that Israel doesn't have many options in this situation.
Throughout history they have done what was asked of them and what has it gotten them?  I'll tell you, nutcases like Hez that are hellbent on the destruction of Israel right on their border.


Its wrong that civilians (babies) are being killed but where did we jump to blaming the wrong people? Hezbollah declared war on Israel, started attacking Israel and then placed innocent people in front of them as shields. In their deficient mind, this is an Israeli atrocity. In a thinking mind, its a stupid jailhouse shell game with Hezbollah being the stupid inmate that thinks its a genius. Hezbollah has perpetrated this atrocity, by putting its weapons behind civilians and then declaring war (in a cowardly fashion). Without even considering its atrocities in the 1980's, this is enough to make any westerner wish to see Hezbollah *completely* destroyed.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2006, 08:10:03 PM by BTW »

Offline Donzo

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2355
      • http://www.bops.us
Now even Condolezza Rice has called for a cease-fire
« Reply #68 on: July 30, 2006, 08:13:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BTW
Its wrong that civilians (babies) are being killed but where did we jump to blaming the wrong people? Hezbollah declared war on Israel, started attacking Israel and then placed innocent people in front of them as shields. In their deficient mind, this is an Israeli atrocity. In a thinking mind, its a stupid jailhouse shell game with Hezbollah being the stupid inmate that thinks its a genius. Hezbollah has perpetrated this atrocity, by putting its weapons behind civilians and then declaring war (in a cowardly fashion). Without even considering its atrocities in the 1980's, this is enough to make any westerner wish to see Hezbollah *completely* destroyed.


I'm not blaming the wrong people.  
Hezbollah is responsible for ALL of this, plain and simple.

I am in total agreement with eveything you said.

Offline Donzo

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2355
      • http://www.bops.us
Now even Condolezza Rice has called for a cease-fire
« Reply #69 on: July 30, 2006, 08:18:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sparks
Donzo - read back through the thread.  I have already stated that my thought on the best option is a large scale special forces multinational operation with full remit to engage with full force.

The problem with your attitude is you put the value of the life of an innocent Israeli civilian above the life of an innocent arab civilian.  i.e It's ok for innocent arabs to die if it stops innocent Israelis dying. Funnily enough your average middle class arab thinks that is a tad racist.

But the un-spoken view of course is that there is no such thing as an innocent arab .....

Anyway - I have to go to work.


Let's do some "crazy-mix'em-ups":

You implied I was advocating:
It's ok for innocent arabs to die if it stops innocent Israelis dying.

How about this:
It's ok for innocent Israelis to die if it stops innocent arabs dying.
Or how about:
It's ok for innocent Israelis to die because they are are Israelis.

Sound about right?  You advocate nothing less.

Offline DREDIOCK

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17773
Now even Condolezza Rice has called for a cease-fire
« Reply #70 on: July 30, 2006, 08:19:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sparks
The question about the activity of the Lebanese army is a valid one Toad but to be honest no-one has shown me any evidence that there actually is a viable Lebanese army.  The country is new and untill very recently the armed security force was the Syrians.  My guess (and it is a guess no more) is that the Lebanese army does not have the capacity to fight Hezbollah.

 


They have an army.
 Problem is there are supporters of Hezbollah within it.
But remember this is close to being a brand new government in this country
And the  Lebanese government is afraid that should they try to move against Hezbollah at this time it would trigger another civil war.
which wouldnt be good for the region either

Now one might think that in a sence Isreal is doing the Lebanese govermentas well as themselves a favor by going after Hezbollah.

And if they were killing off only members of Hezbolla, they might be.
Problem is with these kind of attacks and This kind of collateral damage.
All they are managing to do is create even more supporters of Hezbolla who might not have been otherwise

And you can only say "oops" so many times reguardless of how many leaflets you drop

So, what would YOU have Isreal do?
Pretty much accurate bombing, leaflet dropping country 1
Ramdom rocket firing, no leaflet dropping, civilian shield using country 0


Sorry but I dont buy into these claims of "accurate" bombing with so much collateral damage
What Isreal needs to do if  it absolutely has to continue is instead of  these blind attacks. And if they are serious about keeping the innocent death toll to a minimum.

Drop a net over the entire area with boots on the ground allowing nothing to escape and if it carries a gun or fights back, kill it.
 If it doesnt, let it go.

Yes some innocents will still be unintentionally killed. Such is war.
but it will be far less then the current common Isreali tactic of blowing up and entire building just to kill one or two specific people.

"But what about the innocents Hezbollah kills with its rocket attacks?"

What about them?
Indiscriminate killing, does not justify indiscriminate killing.

If say for example 3 Clan members known to live in an apartment complex in Mobile Alabama lynch 4 blacks in Georgia. Would it be ok if Georgia destroyed the entire apartment complex just to get those 3 clan members?

And if they did, Exactly what would be the reaction of the rest of Mobile be?
Would they be pissed at the 3 Clan members? Or at Georgia for killing their friends and relatives who were not members of the clan or otherwise had nothing to do with the lynchings?

Now instead of getting rid of the e enemies they had. They just created 100 more
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty

Offline BTW

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1107
Now even Condolezza Rice has called for a cease-fire
« Reply #71 on: July 30, 2006, 08:20:36 PM »
Oh, I know - sorry if it seemed I was addressing my ire at you. I was just trying to expand on what you said, and what Israel is trying to remind everyone of. The civilian deaths are horrific, just the thing Hezbollah wanted all over the news. Hezbollah has planned and orchestrated these deaths. But I suspect if the demonstrators attacked the Hezbollah buildings, Hezbollah would not hesitate to shoot them in the head. Its much safer for them to vent on a UN building. Hezbollah is a band of murderers.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2006, 08:22:54 PM by BTW »

Offline Donzo

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2355
      • http://www.bops.us
Now even Condolezza Rice has called for a cease-fire
« Reply #72 on: July 30, 2006, 08:24:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DREDIOCK

If say for example 3 Clan members known to live in an apartment complex in Mobile Alabama lynch 4 blacks in Georgia. Would it be ok if Georgia destroyed the entire apartment complex just to get those 3 clan members?


Were they firing rockets onto blacks from the apartment complex and coldly calculating that no one would touch them because they were surrounded by innocent civilians?

Offline Elfie

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6142
Now even Condolezza Rice has called for a cease-fire
« Reply #73 on: July 30, 2006, 08:40:56 PM »
Quote
Sorry but I dont buy into these claims of "accurate" bombing with so much collateral damage


When Hezbollah sets up next to say....an apartment building, or just outside the fence of a UN observation post......dont you think the collateral damage is going to be significant even with precision guided munitions?

Quote
Indiscriminate killing, does not justify indiscriminate killing.


Israel isnt killing indiscriminately. When rockets get launched into Israel, IDF units either fire counterbattery fire or send in airstrikes. Either of those options HAS to be done quickly to catch the Hezbollah people that are firing on Israel. There isnt time to go in and make sure no civilians are in the area. Hence why Israel has been dropping leaflets telling the Lebanese civilians they need to leave. Otoh, in some cases Hezbollah has been preventing civilians from leaving and in at least one instance has murdered a man who tryed to do so.
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline DREDIOCK

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17773
Now even Condolezza Rice has called for a cease-fire
« Reply #74 on: July 30, 2006, 08:47:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Donzo
Were they firing rockets onto blacks from the apartment complex and coldly calculating that no one would touch them because they were surrounded by innocent civilians?


your missing my entire point.

even then. Would it matter?
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty