The Confederate flag, Heratage or Hate..

[StSanta]

I think you letting us invade you would be a good idea.

And, it'd REALLY help your economy.

 

REALLY a lot cheaper to make a flag using only a malteser cross and some red colour  

Not to mention face paintings during national soccer games would be much easier, allowing a higher degree of pregame intoxication.

And, it has the charm of being sort of old, dating back to the 1200's  .

So how about it yanks? I promise we won't upset your society TOO much  .

<starts looking in gun catalogues>

WOOHOO!

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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"All your base/are belong to us"
http://www.thefever.com/AYB2.swf
Keep up the momentum!

[pzvg]

well, midnight you do make a case there, with the exception of the Northern states that are allowed to keep their state colors intact in spite of an act of rebellion against a central government (Whiskey rebellion for those needing a hint)
Fact remains, Some choose the flag to remember hatred, some choose it to remember a South that was strong and independent, the destruction of which was uncalled for at that level in view of the stated objective of restoring the Union, It's been over a hundred and fifty years since federal troops burned their way across the South, and the effects of that, and the cynically termed "reconstruction" are still echoed in the South today. Is it any wonder we see this as just another attempt to eradicate our heritage?
P.S. Before accusing the South of acts against humanity in the War between the States, suggested reading would be Shelby Foote's histories of the Civil War, pay particular attention to the conduct of Federal troops during the occupation of New Orleans.

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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"

[ET]

An interesting site concerning the flag. http://members.aol.com/wildrebel/flags.html

[ET]

Excuse me,this should be right http://members.aol.com/wlldrebel/flags.html

[TheWobble]

 

Hell the last time i thought about burning something my wife suggested my wardrobe

been in that boat.

[Sancho]

 

Originally posted by pzvg:
The flag that's flying over Texas was used as the Confederate battle standard, when's it coming down?

This is the Confederate battle standard???
 

I must not be that up on Civil War history.  

[MrBill]

 

Originally posted by Sancho:
This is the Confederate battle standard???

I must not be that up on Civil War history.  

Well maybe not "the confederate" but without a doubt "a confederate" battle standard.
 http://freeweb.pdq.net/flags/flag10.htm

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OhNooo
smile awhile

[Loyalist]

Being Canadian I can only speak from my own perception of being native to a country outside of your own. However, the very first thing that comes to my mind when I see the flag is slavery.  Why keep it?  What heritage are you so proud of?

[TheWobble]

 

the very first thing that comes to my mind when I see the flag is slavery

because thats YOUR opinion, just becasue YOU dont like certin brand of ceral does that mean it should be put out of production?

thats the whole thing, some people dont like it, some do, some dont care.  But just because SOME people dont like something is no reason to remove it from socity.


Just sit back and imagine how socity would be if every thing that offeneded more than say 100 people was banned..
let me get ya started.
Simpsons would be gone
...Hell ALL network shows would be gone.

No cars

Everyone would have to wear the same clothes

1 language for everyone that has no "bad words"

the list goes on and on and on.

thats why just banning something just because some people see it in THIER MIND as "bad" is no reason to get rid of it.
they dont like the damn flag FINE, I dont like ford escorts, but Im not marching on Washington to have them banned.

[StSanta]

Wobble, the same line of arguing can be used to defend having the nazi swastika up  .

Not saying that you're wrong. I don't know too much about this particular issue, but I, like the Canadian chap, assosicate the flag through all those tv series about the American civil war with the Evil Slave Whippers(tm).

And i think that's the problem here, us being misguided by tv. So what are the facts?

------------------
Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"All your base/are belong to us"
http://www.thefever.com/AYB2.swf
Keep up the momentum!

[TheWobble]

 

So what are the facts?

FACTS:
The Confed battle flag was a symbol for the confedearat army.

The Civial WAS NOT fought over slavery.

The confed flag was NOT created to IN ANY WAY represent/defend/symbolize slavery.

The confed flag symbolizing slavery has no historical sense to it.

Flag stood for the army, army stood for the war, the are WAS NOT about slavery.  so how could the flag stand for slavery.


Swastika Facts:

The swasztika was adopted by the Nazis because it is an ancent symbol that symbolizes the 4 L's Life, Love, Light, and Luck,
  NOT Germany, NOT the Nazis and certinly NOT the holocaust.  I has been around since beofore the first Nazis grandfather was born.


Saying theat the confed flag represents slavery is an utter joke!  The flag represented the army, the army represented the war, the war WAS NOT ABOUT SLAVERY.  so how can the flag represent slavery EVEN indirectly?

of course if someone has warped enough mind and some kind of agenda they need backed they can say it means whatever they want.

[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 02-26-2001).]

[MrBill]

 

Originally posted by StSanta:


And i think that's the problem here, us being misguided by tv. So what are the facts?

Is not TV wunnerful Oh and don't forget Hollywood!


Another reason Lincoln caved on the slavery issue is that after two years the southern confederacy had not only had stayed the fight, but it was not clear that the US of A was winning.  Some European countries were about to recognize the confederacy and a couple already had.  Lincoln was not ready to turn the US of A into a foreign battleground.  Therefore he issued the emancipation proclamation, to change the focus of the war from states rights, to a war on "some" of the people who owned slaves.  It was a political ploy, and the war ended before the 13th amendment ended slavery in the US of A.  It should also be noted, that although the generals formally surrendered, and the fighting stopped, the organization known as the Confederate States of America has never formally signed documents of surrender.
 http://www.nps.gov/ncro/anti/emancipation.html



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OhNooo
smile awhile

[TheWobble]

Mr.Bill has brought up something that I forgot! and VERY important,  when the war first brok out the North DIDNT even care about slavery, later they used it as a political ploy.


Notice this!

 

On Jan. 1, 1863, U.S. President Abraham Lincoln declared free
all slaves residing in territory in rebellion against the federal
government. This Emancipation Proclamation actually freed few
people. It did not apply to slaves in border states fighting on
the Union side; nor did it affect slaves in southern areas already
under Union control

So basically the north wasnt against slaves, they were against the SOUTH having slaves, slaves in union states WERE NOT FREE.


 

Lincoln had been reluctant to come to this position. A believer
in white supremacy, he initially viewed the war only in terms of
preserving the Union

There ya have it, from the President himself

THE WAR HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH SLAVES.

yet the confed flag is racist???

how friggin dilluded can a person be??

might aswell say the cival war was anti-japanise.

[Suave1]

The civil war was almost solely about slavery, the fighting all started when abolitionists and slavers started killing each other in riots . Particularly in the Kansas territory, the government wasn't going to grant Kansas statehood if it had slaves within it's borders . Slavery was vital to the economy of the southern states . The South saw the writing on the wall and realized that the illegalization of slavery was imminent .The southern states resistance to abolitionist and succession is why the civil war started, be wary of anyone who tells you otherwise . With the exception of high treason, the rebel flag has much in common with the flag of nazi Germany in that it represents a government that believed that some people were subhuman . I don't understand why the South would want to be remembered for the ugliest part of American history . If anyone could find the text of the Gettysburg address please post it, lest we forget .

[MrBill]

 

Originally posted by Suave1:
The civil war was almost solely about slavery,

rest deleted to save space.

And your grade in US History 101 was?? If you truly believe this, I have a library that could keep you reading for the next several years, all debunking your belief.  

As you requested the Gettysberg address.  
You should remember that this was penned "after" the emancipation proclamation, and before the 13th amendment, and a plea that the nation will not be divided.  
Nothing in here about slavery.

  cause I always feel the need to put one, somewhere, in whatever I write.

THE GETTYSBURG ADDRESS:


Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the  
proposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation or any nation so conceived and so dedicated can long endure. We are met on a great battlefield of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of  
that field as a final resting-place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and  
proper that we should do this. But in a larger sense, we cannot dedicate, we cannot consecrate, we cannot hallow this ground.  
The brave men, living and dead who struggled here have consecrated it far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will  
little note nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living rather to be  
dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here  
dedicated to the great task remaining before us--that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which  
they gave the last full measure of devotion--that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain, that this nation under God shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall  
not perish from the earth.

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OhNooo
smile awhile

[This message has been edited by MrBill (edited 02-26-2001).]