Race to the reset.

[mutant]

Originally posted by lazs2
so mutant... you admit that good "strat" in the game is not defending bases but...

lazs2,
  perhaps you should reread my post again, specifically this :"I too will admit that 'winning the war' which is of course done by capturing and defending territory is my primary goal.
  I have highlighted the appropriate area for you!

and this "you don't defend because you can't."    
 try telling that to the waves of rooks trying to take V51 from the LTAR's last night  

Perhaps you're just miffed because NOBODY takes and defends territory as well as the LTAR's do.


LTARcnuk

[Sweet2th]

Perhaps you're just miffed because NOBODY takes and defends territory as well as the LTAR's do.

While flying with the 71st RAF, and JG/44 Nighthawks we have taken many bases from the LTAR's, really don't see what the big deal is all about you just bomb the VH and force the LTAR's to try and fly........


It looks as though HTC has ended the base capture reset marathon by placing UBER amounts of ACK all over the town and field, man that's a lot of ACK!!!!

[Tilt]

Kweassa has it IMO...........

I cant think of a single post (on this subject) I agree more with than Kweassa's observations................. ......

plus he has not fallen into the trap of suggesting the detailia of any "next step"

Actually its quite biblical. I cant see any points raised above that Kweassa does not answer either directly or by inference...........

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by lazs2
so mutant... you admit that good "strat" in the game is not defending bases but...

A daisy chain of all the countries circling around and milkrunning each others undefended fields.  

you don't defend because you can't.   If the furballers can't kill all the suicide fluffers then you toolshedders certainly don't have the skill required.  so... you give up.

You could fly high cap over fields in the fastest most powerfull planes.

If you don't do that then realistic strat is not your goal.

What you want is to hit an enemy field and pulverize it when there are only one or two players "defending"...   You want "defenders" to trickle up or out in such small quantities that you can gangbang em 6 to 1 from a position of advantage and you hope against hope that yours will be the magic bullet in the bullet storm to get the kill message.



lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's

That's exactly what they want Lazs. If people meaningfully defend, the land-grab "generals" determine it is time-inefficient to continue to attack there, evaporate and appear elsewhere to milkrun that instead...Then preach if the combat only types just want to fight then defend against them...duh. If we do that the milkers just leave...

That's what always sucked hard about the HUGE maps. The milkers had limitless options when it came to milkrunning, there was always somewhere undefended to go. It's not nearly as bad on the small maps but it's still there, especially when arena population is low.

Zazen

[Soulyss]

Been following this thread off and on for awhile and thought I'd chime in quickly.  The issue @ the heart of this I think is in a sense, a tactical vs. strategic one.  The guys who typically fly fighters, furball, or otherwise look @ the more local opbjective (I usually consider myself part of this group)  Look as far as the (and somtimes no farther than) the enemy icon on the screen.  There is our point of playing, We/I are/am flying against THAT person.  It's an immediate situation that's our purpose for flying online rather than a boxed sim against AI.  To outthink and outfly the other player.  

For someone looking @ the whole map I don't think we can immediately discount that they are not playing against other people.  I am prone to taking this way of thought myself.  But I've read a couple of the posts in this thread and I've been trying to think of things from their (strat guys) point of view.  So I'm going to speculate here based on what I've read and if anyone thinks I have it wrong I'm happy to listen to thoughtful arguments to the contrary.  In the strat world of the game the object is bigger than the immediate situation on screen.  They are looking @ a whole country and map.  And rather than playing against a single person they are playing against 20, 30, or 100.   If the point/objective of their game is to reset the map and the other team is ahead.  Of course they are going to try and grab the most fields in the shortest time.  They wouldn't be competing in that realm if they slugged it out over one field while the other team rolled along attacking undefended fields.  They are still competing against other people just not in the same space nessesarily.  

I think it's time that the map or fundamental structure of the game is looked at.  Corky here has started a couple threads on the subject and I think he may be on to somthing.  Lazs also hit upon the idea that the attitude of the player base has changed.... this I think also may be true.  I think both those ideas go hand in hand.  The player base seems to have changed... maybe we need to look @ changing the environment.   There has to be some way to bring the players together again.  

I wrote that long winded ramble over the course of several ours here @ the office... I hope it makes sense.

[Airscrew]

It can be fustrating especially when the arena numbers are low.  Many times I have logged on to the EWA and theres 8 Bish, 10 Knights and 23 Rooks.  
a squaddy and I were defending one base that a couple of rooks where trying to take when one of the ports started flashing.  While we saved one base they took another.  Boozebag said there went another base to the rooks, I said "well we cant be everywhere"
I find myself now uping at a base thats flashing, deal with the one or two planes, shoot them down, then bail and jump to next base thats flashing and do it again.  After awhile it gets aggravating so I log out and go to the MWA and theres the same map, same lopsided numbers just slightly increased population wise, same milk running.  On top of that I had to listen to some guy whine about getting HOd where no HO existed.  

with some of the maps used for the EWA, the bases seem to far apart to try and defend a vehicle base or a port.   HTC added ack to the airfields but it didnt seem like any ack was added to vehicle bases or ports.   Ports are rediculously easy to take if the CV is not in port.  a few of us defended a port the other night (Saturday?) the CV was there so we were able to up and defend it.   I think the port should have a bomber hanger and a fighter hanger at least and allow naval planes to up.  Add vehicle hangers need to be spread out at Vehicle base so they cant be taken down in one pass, and please add a VH to the towns

Add one other thing while I'm here,  EWA should be changed to Hurris High or Hurricane arena

[hitech]

Soulyss: Yes you do make sense. And you are doing a good job of reading between the lines of what people say. In my view the point of the change isn't to get rid of either style of play. But as you say, a game play change that
removes the end run as a method of strategic play.

This then creates conflicts that both types of players enjoy.

I.E. You can't just hit them where they ain't.

HiTech

[Waffle]

So do any of the ideas in this thread hold any merit? http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=192275

The basic premise is adding factors before "current play" instead of after it to tailor it. (stuff like the ENY, side balances, and now ack, have been add-ons after the fact, it seems to mold the gameplay)

Sorta like if you have a leaking dam, you can keep patching it, and placing temporary dams downstream, to slow the flow, -but what really needs to be built is another damn or distribution system upstream.

[mutant]

Originally posted by Soulyss
.  
I think it's time that the map or fundamental structure of the game is looked at.  Corky here has started a couple threads on the subject and I think he may be on to somthing.  Lazs also hit upon the idea that the attitude of the player base has changed.... this I think also may be true.  I think both those ideas go hand in hand.  The player base seems to have changed... maybe we need to look @ changing the environment.   There has to be some way to bring the players together again.  
 

Hi Soulyss,
 Thanks for that well thought out piece. However, I disagree that 'there has to be some way to bring the players together'....
 If the furballers/duelists/gvers/langrabbers...are all having fun doing their thing there is no need to force any of them to change their behaviours or bring them together. The beauty of the current structure of AH is just this: everyone can find a style of play that suits their purpose/enjoyment prefernces.... for your 14.95 you get to play the game however you want (and crow about whichever accopmlishments you happen to prefer! )


LTARcnuk

[mutant]

Originally posted by hitech

I.E. You can't just hit them where they ain't.

 

Hi HT,
 Assuming that there are reasonable #s for each country logged on, I submit  u can't 'hit them where they aint' because defenders can immediatley up at any base which shows an alarm.
  An organzied surprise raid on an unprepared field can certainly cause some scrambling as there is little time for a defence to get organized, but the very tension this situation creates raises the enjoyment of the game for many players.
 My point being 'if it ain't broke don't fix it'. From what I have seen the 'milk running' that some complain about takes place only in arenas where there are few people on and/or lopsided #s. This seems to have been aggravated by the multi-arenas (as previously happened mostly in the wee hours). In those arenas where the #s are greater and more even a defence can almost always be counted on to scramble for a base. (and if it is not who's fault is that? The attackers or the country who fails to respond to alarm?)
 Now if one side concentrates its #s in a hoard to roll bases, and another side takes advantage by attacking lightly defened bases while offering slow down resistance, this is only good tactics! Are those 'end run' attacks sticking in someone's craw? Then come up with a plan, organize and execute a defensive counter that will eliminate the threat! When this occurs will other tactics and strategies come into play? Of course! the whole battlefield is thus dynamic with many possibilities and moves to consider. Much like a chessboard, thinking ahead of ones opponent(s) is crucial to success...
 Please don't take away some of the 'moves' which add complexity and surprise into the campaign. Don't take an exciting fast moving battle of wits and skill (and yes luck!) and turn it into trench warfare!

LTARcnuk

p.s.  love the new ack and barracks!

[Soulyss]

It's not that I think people should be forced into doing something they don't want to do.  Rather that the various channels of gameplay would be funneled together so to speak.  If you want to drive a tank, drive a tank, if you want to win the map fine do that, if you want to furball, great.... what I would hope is that these are not mutually exclusive elements.  If you're in the same space you just have converging goals.  The fighter types will be drawn to the mission/territory war because that's where the things to shoot @ will be. (both in air and on the ground) get a couple fighters together and they are bound to attract more, that's how furballs start.  At the same time it will make the strat oriented people organize more, and as long as the other side can't get too much of a lead in base #'s shouldn't have a problem with battling for contested fields.  I don't even think that the furballers would mind losing the field they are fighting out of if it immediately set up another battle in it's wake.  

It's not about making people play the game the same way it's about bringing the purpose or goals of those players into closer alignment.

[MOIL]

Originally posted by Sweet2th
While flying with the 71st RAF, and JG/44 Nighthawks we have taken many bases from the LTAR's, really don't see what the big deal is all about you just bomb the VH and force the LTAR's to try and fly........


It looks as though HTC has ended the base capture reset marathon by placing UBER amounts of ACK all over the town and field, man that's a lot of ACK!!!!

That's good, but it goes both ways. That's why sometime we'll hit a base, leave the VH up and drop the hangers. Then watch most (not all) try and GV...........

2nd, the ack is slowly becoming more realistc, I like it. FACT: more WW2 A/C were lost to AA fire than another A/C or malfunction.

Have a nice day

[sgt203]

Ive seen more furballs around bases with the recent changes than ever before in the late war arenas.. Makes for nice fights to try and take the base...You have to work for it... more combat.. lots of killing and lots of being killed.

I personally like the game no matter how others play it and I dont see the big deal...

If the 'furballers" want to furball its there at lots of bases its not 2 vs 2 or whatever number you find suitable but the furball is there for sure... So what if its a horde of La7's or whatever plane... get in a plane and kill them all.. so what if your cartoon plane gets blown up by some "noob" blasting in at 4000 MPH from 85,000 feet...what gets hurt your feelings or your ego???

If someone wants to run undefended bases let them... What is the big deal if the map gets reset?? The terrain changes and you start flying again.. I dont know why thats such a big deal.. If you like to "furball only" why care about the map resetting or some side "winning the war"..

I could personally care less how anyone else wants to play the game...

They want to spend the time for 2 hours driving a GV to "steal a field" who cares!!!! If driving that GV for 2 hours is fun for them great!!! if they get satisfaction from stealing the field Good!!!

There is enough to do with the multiple arenas that if you do not wish to be gang-banged by 400 La-7's fly in an arena that does not have them..

Everybody has fun in their own way...

You may not like the way others play or see the point to it but the fact is you dont have to!!! only they do..

I enjoy the game and I HAVE FUN... thats why I pay my money every month...

I enjoy all facets of the Game from GV'ing to Furballing to sneaking into alightly or undefended base to flying into a giant Dar-Bar... I am having a Blast!!!!

This game offers alot for many different types of people with differing ideas of fun.. All in one nice neat little package.

Just my .02
<<>>

[Tilt]

I would presume concept of "you cant hit em where they aint" is one of HT's  constant challenges.........



Map design would ideally channel the "invasion routes" to focus conflict in key areas or at least provide key "flash points" that were critical to the next stage in the invasion or defence of a territory.

However we see that when capture attempts against fields presently heavily defended are doomed that attackers (quite sensibly given their goal) switch the attack to less defended fields.

Gameplay therefore is placed on a moving battle field......... this is OK as long as both attack, defence and counter attack etc can move and the defenders are not removed from gameplay.

If defenders cannot respond to this move in time then they are removed from gameplay...........very demotivating

We may  like to consider a method of enabling defenders to respond a little quicker to a changing point of attack. To do this they will need more notice........... this may be as simple as extending radar ranges and or even conveying more data from radar than that presently obtained.

 Motivation to defend is important.......... it should be fun, it should be rewarding and it should be possible.

Mass attacks geared to runway suppression via vulching are no fun for the defender and extremely de motivating............ I believe the recent increase in AA has reduced this trend.

NOE surprise low level formation carpet bombing made defence improbable due to lateness of defensive responce.........the defending field often porked/ killed before a defence could properly respond......again I believe the recent increase in AA has reduced this trend as low level formations are getting shredded.

High level bombing attacks equally can accurately kill fields by ingressing above the normal combat altitudes without the defenders being aware of the attackers altitude until it is too late.............. presently the defenders are denied a responce to this form of attack unless they wait speculatively at altitude. This is boring. Fortunately it is equally boring for bombers to climb to 18/20K but one high altitude B24 formation can still take out all the FH's and the Vh of a small field and so a small minority of players (ie one)can remove local gameplay from a significant majority.

This is still the case.

Counter attack must be possible. Porking troops/ordinance permitted a side to ignore anothers counter attacks to a degree where once the heavily populated enemy front line was porked and made safe then they could simply switch the mass attack elsewhere to a less heavily (some might say deserted) defended area.


Now with greater numbers of Barracks the counter attack is viable and sides ignore heavily populated enemy front lines at their peril.  Defenders can switch to attack if their opponents go elsewhere.............We may still wish to increase barracks/ordinance numbers further.

[Flayed1]

"Now with greater numbers of Barracks the counter attack is viable and sides ignore heavily populated enemy front lines at their peril. Defenders can switch to attack if their opponents go elsewhere.............We may still wish to increase barracks/ordinance numbers further."


  I think they have em about right...  Last night we did an attack raid about 6 strong (I think this is an average # with the population being decreased per arena) to pork a small field..    We porked it all right but we all died doing it.  I can only imagine what it would be like trying to do a larger field with the same amount of guys.

  Might get half, maybe 3/4 of the strat down.    

 Wile some might say, so you died and can now up another plane faster to get to the next base. I attempt to bring every plane I up back. maybe not in one piece but back

Also about the only time I see bases porked now is if you can get some guys togeather to do a strat raid/mission.  So most of the time you can look along the fronts and everything every where is up.